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Speaker 1: This is not real. This is not real, this is

2
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Speaker 1: not you know, not mine, Shelley, No, you know, and

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Speaker 1: it's just like a oh, I cannot even tell you

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Speaker 1: what it feels like. It is feel like something has

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Speaker 1: just gotten hooked to your heart and just ripped it apart,

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Speaker 1: crushed it. You know, it's just your being is just

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Speaker 1: like gone.

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Speaker 2: In those years before it all began, they spoke mostly

9
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Speaker 2: of God country, cattle and cutting horses. Yep, murder has

10
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Speaker 2: a way of changing the town and its people and

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Speaker 2: seems to wash away a lifetime of pleasant memories.

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Speaker 1: That it's still that, you know. Then you're in the

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Speaker 1: shock and you but I still didn't want anybody telling me.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to hear anything. It was horrible. It

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Speaker 1: was horrible.

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Speaker 2: Over four decades have passed, yet the magnitude and pain

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Speaker 2: of losing a child to murder feels as raw and

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Speaker 2: real as it did on that morning when she first

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Speaker 2: heard those unimaginable words no parent should ever have to hear.

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Speaker 2: Time is no healer whoever said that never lost a

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Speaker 2: damn child to the hands of a killer. Making matters

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Speaker 2: even worse is when you and so many others feel

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Speaker 2: you know, who was responsible, but no one seems to

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Speaker 2: be doing anything about it. What's more, law enforcement stops

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Speaker 2: answering your calls, creating a force field of silence around

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Speaker 2: anyone connected to the case. Because justice in the small

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Speaker 2: Texas town where your life changed forever is unlike justice

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Speaker 2: most everywhere else.

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Speaker 3: So everybody that you taught to will say, you know

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Speaker 3: it was law enforcement everybody. So just the optics alone

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Speaker 3: looked bad, right, I mean, if you know, you need

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Speaker 3: to be careful.

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Speaker 2: And if what I've found is any indication, the good

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Speaker 2: Old Boys Club, a seemingly distant memory of the past,

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Speaker 2: appears to be alive and thriving and even more powerful

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Speaker 2: than ever, forty plus years after the fact.

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Speaker 4: My name is Debbie Billingsley. I lived in fort Worth, Texas.

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Speaker 4: I was born and raised in Weatherford. We moved to

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Speaker 4: fort Worth about, oh, I don't know, twenty four years ago,

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Speaker 4: maybe just because I wanted to get away from everything

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Speaker 4: that was over there in Weatherford. There was just so

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Speaker 4: much going on that I really became afraid to stay

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Speaker 4: there when Shelley and Vincent were killed that night. From

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Speaker 4: that day forward, I had so many people knocking on

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Speaker 4: my door telling me they were the police, they were this,

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Speaker 4: they were that, and I found out that four of

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Speaker 4: them were not police, and so I became very afraid.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know who to trust at that point.

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Speaker 2: My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist

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Speaker 2: and the New York Times bestselling author of dozens of

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Speaker 2: true crime books. This is season five of Paper Ghosts,

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Speaker 2: the Texas Team Murders. Driving from Fort Worth into Weatherford

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Speaker 2: about a thirty minute trip, give or take, the one

54
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Speaker 2: thing you noticed immediately is the amount of construction going

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Speaker 2: on everywhere. New apartment complexes, restaurants, strip malls, condos, walk in,

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Speaker 2: medical facilities, road construction as far as the eye can see.

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Speaker 2: It's one of two fates that befalls a small town

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Speaker 2: in America. It either fades away to dust or becomes

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Speaker 2: one big strip mall full of the same cookie cutter,

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Speaker 2: fast casual drek that swallows any town that dares to survive.

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Speaker 2: And yet, looping off the exit ramp heading into downtown Weatherford,

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Speaker 2: you get this nostalgic feeling that time has stood still,

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Speaker 2: stuck somewhere around the mid to early eighties. As I

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Speaker 2: made my way down Main Street, the strip they used

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Speaker 2: to call it heading to me to contact in a

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Speaker 2: forty two year old double murder. I get this strong

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Speaker 2: sense of how life was here back in the day

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Speaker 2: when these strange and grisly events took place, walking around

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Speaker 2: talking to people visiting the crime scene and other key locations.

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Speaker 2: The emotional ripple effect of pain associated with two teens

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Speaker 2: out on their first card date brutally murdered for seemingly

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Speaker 2: no reason at one of the more popular locations in

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Speaker 2: town is still as sensitive as it was on that

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Speaker 2: first morning after their bodies were discovered. I had been

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Speaker 2: warned be careful. People asking questions about these cases in

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Speaker 2: the past have died in accidents and supposedly by suicide,

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Speaker 2: and there are certain figures in town who will protect

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Speaker 2: the secrets at all costs. Even now, all this time, Leader.

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Speaker 4: It takes me back to a long, long time ago.

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Speaker 4: My dad was an alcoholic and for years, but praise God,

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Speaker 4: he quit drinking it and was sober thirty years before

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Speaker 4: he passed away. But our town was a small little town.

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Speaker 4: Anybody that had authority ran the town, and our sheriff

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Speaker 4: had his hand in everything that went on. We had

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Speaker 4: a trades day ground where people used to go and

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Speaker 4: set up and sell their wares, and there was some

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Speaker 4: empty houses. He so liquor out of prostitution. There was

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Speaker 4: gambling going on down there. And the reason I know

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Speaker 4: that for a fact is years and years later, my

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Speaker 4: dad told me when he drank. Our town was a

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Speaker 4: dry county. You had to drive to Fort Worth to

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Speaker 4: get liquor, any kind of liquor. And so my dad

93
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Speaker 4: told me, mister had these places and anybody could go

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Speaker 4: buy it, you just had to have the money. He'd

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Speaker 4: go buy the liquor and then sell it for twice

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Speaker 4: to what it was worth, just because our county was dry.

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Speaker 4: And he's the sheriff, you know. So we learned real

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Speaker 4: young in life that just because they were law enforcement

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Speaker 4: didn't mean they were good people. And he controlled everything

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Speaker 4: that went on, drugs, alcohol, transportation of trafficking of people,

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Speaker 4: all of that. He was involved in all of it,

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Speaker 4: and nobody ever did anything because they were too afraid to.

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Speaker 4: He made it very clear you either did what he

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Speaker 4: said or you paid that price. So when all of

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Speaker 4: this happened and with us, I just became very afraid

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Speaker 4: to be there. And right now we've lived in Fort

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Speaker 4: Worth twenty something years. But My kids still live in Weatherford,

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Speaker 4: and my great grandsons still live both them, and I

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Speaker 4: don't like that. I only go to Weatherford to see them,

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Speaker 4: and then I come home. I don't stay. I just

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Speaker 4: don't trust the people. Even after all of these years,

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Speaker 4: I still don't trust them.

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Speaker 2: Debbie Billingsley is much older now, with kids and grandchildren.

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Speaker 2: She was one of the last people to see the

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Speaker 2: kids on the night they left the house and never returned.

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Speaker 2: You will hear more from Debbie as we move forward,

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Speaker 2: but her sentiment sets the tone. Weatherford, Texas is unlike

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Speaker 2: most towns, where justice runs its course and the good

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Speaker 2: guys generally win, the townspeople satisfied in the streets returning

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Speaker 2: to safety. In contrast, all I have heard from one

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Speaker 2: person after the next is that you would better watch

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Speaker 2: your back out here, be it nineteen eighty three or

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, and that the law has its own

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Speaker 2: way of settling scores, keeping tabs, and intimidating those who

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Speaker 2: speak out so that they never speak again.

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Speaker 1: I know then something was wrong, something's wrong. So I

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Speaker 1: just got down in the car, locked the doors, and

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to get out because I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to hear. You know, I don't, no, no, no, everything's fine.

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Speaker 1: So finally I do get out, and you know, here's

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Speaker 1: these people in my house and the detectives and and

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Speaker 1: it was like, huh uh, no, you don't go tell

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Speaker 1: me nothing. You're not going to tell me nothing. So

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Speaker 1: I went to her room and I got on her

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Speaker 1: bed and just started calling everybody I had. My best

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Speaker 1: girlfriend was there, and now I just kept telling her,

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Speaker 1: and she said, Johnny, okay, let's stop calling. I said, no,

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Speaker 1: I want him to know it's okay, she can come home.

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Speaker 1: He's okay, she's not in trouble, she can come home.

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Speaker 1: So I went through that for about two days. I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to hear don't tell me nothing, But I

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Speaker 1: don't want to hear nothing.

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Speaker 2: When you lose a child, your world stops. A choking

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Speaker 2: feeling consumes you, as if you will never breathe again.

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Speaker 2: It becomes a continuous state of agonizing emotional bondage, which

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Speaker 2: you know will never let go. You can't function properly,

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Speaker 2: think straight, do simple things. No, nothing will ever be

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Speaker 2: the same again. For Janetic Coliflower Smith, forty two years

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Speaker 2: have passed since her fourteen year old daughter walked out

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Speaker 2: the door for the last time. She can't sleep anymore,

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Speaker 2: and the fact that her daughter's killer or killers are

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Speaker 2: still walking around town is a haunting reality, almost too

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Speaker 2: difficult to contend with. It's not easy to talk about.

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Speaker 2: In fact, it's almost impossible. Hearing about it is crushing.

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Speaker 2: And yet Janetta, just like the families of so many victims,

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Speaker 2: understands that if you don't talk about it, that pain,

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Speaker 2: it will suffocate you.

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Speaker 1: But you know, at that moment, it's you can't even

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Speaker 1: think of stuff. You just and for days from us,

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Speaker 1: and then forty years down the road last year I

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Speaker 1: think it was last year. Then I'm told all this

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Speaker 1: different that and I hate to say it's hard, hard

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Speaker 1: heart to say. But then the weather for detectives tell

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Speaker 1: me no, no, they were not they were shot.

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Speaker 3: You know it.

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Speaker 1: It's hard, It just you know, it just comes back

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Speaker 1: and gives you the in my head, the pictures of

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Speaker 1: what it was like.

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Speaker 2: Janetta explains that after decades of not hearing anything from

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Speaker 2: law enforcement, in twenty twenty one, there they were again,

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Speaker 2: knocking on her door, asking questions and sharing details about

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Speaker 2: the case she had never heard before.

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Speaker 1: And they resided their head. It's what I'm taught and

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Speaker 1: uh as we went on then h then one of

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Speaker 1: them told him said they didn't. I said, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: she was scared. I know, I know she was, and

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Speaker 1: I did know she was terrified, and I do know

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Speaker 1: it's me. She's thinking about, you know, where's my mama?

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Speaker 1: And uhh.

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Speaker 3: And this is.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Oh a real.

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Speaker 2: I met one of the victim's mothers where she now

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Speaker 2: lives in a gated community of Catholics, even though she

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Speaker 2: herself isn't. It was a windy, scorchingly hot day in February,

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Speaker 2: and what was immediately apparent to me was that shadow

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Speaker 2: of pain on her face, knowing she was going to

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Speaker 2: be rehashing the worst moment of her life.

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Speaker 1: My name is jon Eda Smith, but I was Cauliflower

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Speaker 1: for years, and that's the name that my daughter goes by,

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Speaker 1: Shelley Cauliflower.

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Speaker 2: Like many who live in this Bucolic rural section of

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Speaker 2: central Texas, out on the outskirts of no familiar place,

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Speaker 2: Janetta grew up in the general region and has remained

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Speaker 2: here her entire life.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in a littletown, Meridi in Texas. I

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Speaker 1: mean there was no lights, no nothing. When we're talking

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Speaker 1: streets roll up. And I had a great young life.

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Speaker 1: My dad was a Baptist preacher, and yes, I was

200
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Speaker 1: raised as a preacher's daughter, but I was not the

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Speaker 1: preacher's daughter. I mean I didn't get a chance to

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Speaker 1: be that preacher's daughter because my dad was so strict,

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Speaker 1: so strict. I didn't get that part.

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Speaker 5: When you say strict, what do you mean.

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Speaker 1: I really wasn't allowed to do anything. You know, he

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Speaker 1: didn't want me to play sports because like basketball, I

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Speaker 1: was never allowed to wear shorts, you know, or pants

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. He was a wonderful man. His

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Speaker 1: idea was what would people think? He just you know,

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Speaker 1: he felt like I needed to be a preacher's daughter.

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Speaker 1: You know, I needed to be good, you know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess basically wholesome. But he was wonderful man.

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Speaker 2: You can hear the anguish in Janetta's voice. Every word

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Speaker 2: seems on the brink of fracturing. Janetta Collie Flower Smith

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Speaker 2: has lived the past four decades of her life in

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Speaker 2: a prison, a self contained box of emotional hell. I've

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Speaker 2: rarely encountered with murder victims' families. The events of March

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth and twenty sixth, nineteen eighty three broke. This

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Speaker 2: woman caught her soul into so many different pieces. She

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Speaker 2: has no idea even to this day how to even

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Speaker 2: begin to put herself back together.

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Speaker 1: I got married very early.

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Speaker 5: Well how old were you?

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Speaker 1: Sixteen?

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Speaker 5: So you were sixteen? And what was your husband's name?

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Speaker 1: His name? His name was cauch.

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Speaker 5: Okay, so that's where the couch name comes from.

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Speaker 1: But I want to make clear, hey never had anything

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Speaker 1: to do with her.

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Speaker 5: Nothing, And tell me about that. So what happens?

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Speaker 2: I mean, so you meet him, you're sixteen, you get married,

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Speaker 2: and you have a child right away, So you're what

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Speaker 2: seventeen eighteen and you have Shelley?

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Speaker 5: And what's that like for you?

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Speaker 1: Oh? I adored her her, you know it was Oh,

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Speaker 1: I just adored her. So she was so sweet. She

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Speaker 1: was a baby that had these you know sometimes you

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Speaker 1: call them rubber band babies. That's when they had all

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Speaker 1: of these little rolls in their legs, in their arms

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Speaker 1: because they're so fat. And she was just amazing. She's

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Speaker 1: a good baby. It was okay.

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Speaker 2: After moving round a bit, Janetta, her second husband, Ronnie Colliflower,

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Speaker 2: Shelley and a second child, Christy settled in Weatherford. Recently,

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Speaker 2: the town has been put on the map, so to speak,

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Speaker 2: as major portions of the hit television show Yellowstone were

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Speaker 2: filmed on a local ranch. It has a homey country

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Speaker 2: feel about it, steer and cattle horses, cowboy boots, jeans

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Speaker 2: and stetsons, and up in the moor, spread out flat areas,

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Speaker 2: those sprawling ranches with the iron gates their names forged

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Speaker 2: in steel. Generally speaking, downtown looks and feels like any

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Speaker 2: other contemporary Western settlement. Taco Bell and sonic Walmart, trendy

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Speaker 2: gourmet coffee shops, plenty of Southwestern architectural charm, dirt roads,

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Speaker 2: far more trucks than cars, fuel stations with snacks and

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Speaker 2: soda fountains on every corner. People tip their hats and

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Speaker 2: say howdy, They smile, ask how you are. Yet, anyone

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Speaker 2: living in town for more than a few years knows

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Speaker 2: that Weatherford holds deep, dark, murderous secrets buried just below

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Speaker 2: its magnetic western charm, a past marred in bizarre suicides,

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Speaker 2: strange supposedly accidental deaths, and several high profile brutal murders

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Speaker 2: of popular teenagers.

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Speaker 6: It was at that time it was a small town.

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Speaker 6: It probably like any other town in the South, the Texas.

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Speaker 6: You know, there was no Internet or nothing like that,

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Speaker 6: so we kind of had our own little heritage here.

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Speaker 6: You know, there's a lot of cliques and stuff like

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Speaker 6: people like groups of people had kind of had their

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Speaker 6: own way of doing stuff and thinking and stuff like that,

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Speaker 6: and it's still to somewhat. It's still like that today.

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Speaker 7: Back then, you.

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Speaker 6: Kind of had a bunch of different groups. You kind

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Speaker 6: of had like the what they call the ropers, which

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Speaker 6: was kind of your cowboys types, kind of had your rockers,

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Speaker 6: the jocks, so the jocks, the go rovers, the hippies,

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Speaker 6: the preppies, and all everything in between, and that was

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Speaker 6: kind of a combination of all of them.

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Speaker 2: The drug culture was thriving then, perhaps as it still

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Speaker 2: is today. Hardcore stuff like coke, speed, and I kid

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Speaker 2: you not, stories of methamphetamine labs, cooks and dealers with

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Speaker 2: ties to law enforcement, straight out of the hit television

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Speaker 2: series Breaking Bad.

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Speaker 6: So some of the that was kind of a weird

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Speaker 6: thing too, because some of the jocks were into the

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Speaker 6: drug thing, some of the preppies were into the drug thing.

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Speaker 6: I don't know much about the drug thing. I was

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Speaker 6: not I was. I wasn't a part of that. I

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Speaker 6: tried to stay far away from that as I could.

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Speaker 6: But you know, back then we had rock. We'd go

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Speaker 6: to rock concerts. You knew it was there, but you know,

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Speaker 6: if you're not involved with it, you're not going to

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Speaker 6: know much about it.

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Speaker 2: Still, for Ronnie and Genetic Cauliflower, along with their children

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Speaker 2: Shelley and Christy, when they arrived in nineteen eighty, Weatherford

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Speaker 2: felt like the ideal place to settle down and enjoy

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Speaker 2: what we're supposed to be the best years of their lives.

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Speaker 1: Had a very, very very nice house and with some

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Speaker 1: achorage at a little bit of acreage. And of course

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Speaker 1: Ronnie's a cowboy. It's always been a cowboy he, you know,

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Speaker 1: and that was exciting to him, and it was exciting

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Speaker 1: to make us.

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Speaker 2: The house was so nice, a gorgeous ranch with lots

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Speaker 2: of fenced in flat land out front, like an enormous

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Speaker 2: carpet leading down toward the road, horses, a gate down

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Speaker 2: at the end of the driveway to the Collieflowers. It

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Speaker 2: was paradise. What a place to raise a family. And

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Speaker 2: what did you think of Weatherford when you got there?

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Speaker 2: It was Okay, how did Shelley like it?

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Speaker 1: Oh, she loved school. She loved church, you know, she

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Speaker 1: loved it, happy, happy, happy.

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Speaker 5: So you guys were a church going family, and yeah,

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Speaker 5: and she like going to church.

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Speaker 1: Oh, she loved church. Church was her best thing. And

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Speaker 1: at the funeral, you know, I don't remember a lot,

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Speaker 1: but somethings stand out to me, and like at the funeral,

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Speaker 1: I remember her pastor saying Shelley was one of the

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Speaker 1: most faithful members they had. I mean, her best friend

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Speaker 1: and her parents were real, very very church oriented, and

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Speaker 1: of course Shelley went with her every time.

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Speaker 2: If I didn't understanding this case, it's complexities and how

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Speaker 2: for over four decades this town has so many questions

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Speaker 2: left unanswered. Began a few years back from me, the

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Speaker 2: administrator of a Facebook group, Justice for Vincent, and Shelley

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Speaker 2: reached out. Please please help us. She wrote to me,

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Speaker 2: feeling from stonewalled and patronized by a bureaucratic court system,

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Speaker 2: refusing her even the most basic case documents, police reports,

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Speaker 2: witness statements and so on. She pleaded for me to

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Speaker 2: take a look into the case. We had several conversations.

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Speaker 2: She introduced me to good honest people seeking justice. She

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Speaker 2: hoped that once I got a sense of the underlying

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Speaker 2: silence and as she claimed cover ups, I'd want to help,

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Speaker 2: because as far as she and the victims' families were concerned,

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Speaker 2: no one else would.

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Speaker 3: My name is Lorie Kates and I'm from Weatherford, Texas.

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Speaker 5: Have you grown up in what Ford? Your whole life?

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Speaker 3: Pretty much? We moved from Arlington, Texas back in nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty three. December of eighty three, I was nine years old,

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Speaker 3: and we you know, I grew up out here. My

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00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 3: mom was a real estate agent in Parker County and

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Speaker 3: my dad worked at General Motors in Arlington.

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Speaker 2: At fifty A hairdresser by trade, Laurie is a quintessential

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Speaker 2: Texan with that noticeable Western accent and old fashioned appeal.

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Speaker 2: She wears a silver cross and earrings in the shape

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Speaker 2: of Texas. She's proud of her roots and who she is.

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Speaker 2: She carries a twenty five caliber pistol with a pink

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Speaker 2: pearl handle and doesn't mince words when it comes to

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00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 2: her opinions, especially when we get into Shelley. In Vincent's case,

346
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 2: she may come across suite and innocent, and yet for

347
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Speaker 2: the years I have known her now, Laurie is anything

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00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 2: but passive and soft spoken, a steel hand and a

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Speaker 2: velvet glove.

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Speaker 3: Because we need help, we need help, we need And

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Speaker 3: Shelley was fourteen, I mean, and Vincent was sixteen, and

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Speaker 3: these were kids, and we're just trying to get answers

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Speaker 3: to family. Is they've been denied any answers from weather

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Speaker 3: for PDA. They hate the chief, hangs up on the family.

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Speaker 3: They will not talk to the family.

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Speaker 2: Weatherford is the seat of Parker County. Today, there are

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Speaker 2: some one hundred and fifty thousand people, three times more

358
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Speaker 2: than there was in nineteen eighty three when all of

359
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: this began. Although data for that year doesn't exist, it's

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Speaker 2: safe to say Weatherford house between ten and fifteen thousand souls.

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Speaker 2: So it was very much small town Texas.

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Speaker 3: I grew up on the outskirts in a smaller little

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Speaker 3: town called Peaster, and we didn't even have a gas station,

364
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Speaker 3: so we had to go to Weatherford for everything. Grocery store,

365
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Speaker 3: you know, that type of thing, if we wanted to

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Speaker 3: go to movies. I mean, as far as I knew

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Speaker 3: as a kid it, you know, it was just growing

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Speaker 3: up in a normal country, you know, country town small town,

369
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Speaker 3: very family oriented. Our Friday nights consisted of cow tipping

370
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Speaker 3: in pastures, you know, after drinking a perhaps blue ribbon

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Speaker 3: or something. It has a courthouse, beautiful courthouse built in

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Speaker 3: the eighteen hundreds. The town were known for peaches. Actually,

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Speaker 3: they have a peach festival every year. They have farmers

374
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 3: market where everybody goes and gets their fresh troops and vegetables.

375
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 3: It's just a cute, nice, little, you know, little small

376
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Speaker 3: typical town.

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Speaker 2: The idea that evil exists in what's known as the

378
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: peach capital of the state seems out of place for

379
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 2: the people who call Weatherford home. And yet the past

380
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: doesn't lie.

381
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 3: Weatherford is the cutting capital of the world. There's a

382
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 3: lot of ranches out here, big you know, cowboys everywhere,

383
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 3: wranglers and boots. That's what everybody wears, cowboy hats. It

384
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 3: wasn't uncommon to see police officers riding horses. There's a

385
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 3: shriff's posse which rides horses. You know, it's a country

386
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Speaker 3: western cowboy town.

387
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Speaker 2: I think there is a cliche or maybe judgment that

388
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: small town America, especially in the South and West, consists

389
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: of families sitting on porches at night in rocking chairs,

390
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: a piece of straw in the corner of their mouths

391
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 2: after a day of rustling upsteer and cutting horses in

392
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: the dry, blowing dirt. There's the conception that things are

393
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: run by the local sheriff, boots up on his desk,

394
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: bella hanging over his belt, buckle, deputy standing around just

395
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: waiting to do his bidding. Thank Hollywood for those images. Yet,

396
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: as I got to know Laurie Moore and she introduced

397
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: me to others involved in this case, and an investigator

398
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 2: you will meet later on in the podcast, it became

399
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: clear that the old cliche of the bully sheriff and

400
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: his cronies running around doing his business is no bastardized

401
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: version of reality, particularly when the body count begins to

402
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: grow end when you consider what happened up on ten

403
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: Top Road in Weatherford in March nineteen eighty three.

404
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Speaker 3: The first time that I ever heard about corruption, the

405
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 3: good old boys club, so to speak, was back in

406
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 3: I was probably in sixth grade and my best friend Marlene,

407
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: her parents owned the skating rink. They had picked me

408
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 3: up and we were on the way of the skating

409
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 3: rink and my friend Marlene looked at me. We were

410
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 3: probably twelve years old, and she said, Hey, did you

411
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: hear about the meth lab that blew up an over house.

412
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Speaker 2: The man Laurie mentioned was in law enforcement at the time,

413
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: a name I have heard now from most everyone I

414
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 2: have spoken to as being connected to the case in

415
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: some way.

416
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Speaker 7: If he's not involved directly, he knows what happened, you know.

417
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,959
Speaker 7: I think there was some information floating around about uh,

418
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 7: he was pulled over by the at that time. Instead

419
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 7: of getting the DWI, he gave him a ride home,

420
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 7: you know, And that kind of just that stuck out

421
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 7: in my head, like, Wow, you're thinking that did this,

422
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 7: or the rumor and yet that's been known out there

423
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 7: that you know, you're thinking they were part of it.

424
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 7: Thatn't really. Yeah, it kind of clicks a little funny,

425
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 7: you know.

426
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: To get up the truth in any cold case, weading

427
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: through rumor, speculation and talk inside the local diners and

428
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: dive bars can be a cumbersome dance. You have to

429
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: weed out fact from fiction. What brought me here and

430
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: piqued my interest all those years ago is the sheer

431
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 2: number of young people whose lives were lost during in

432
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: the late seventies and mid eighties, when several serial killers

433
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: were active in this part of the country. When a

434
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: certain group of victims are basically the same age, hang

435
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: around the same circles, and disappear or are murdered within

436
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 2: the same general region, it's almost a given you go

437
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: straight to the serial killer theory. Yet I am not

438
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: so sure that would be productive in these cases.

439
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 3: There was a lot of meth that was being run

440
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: through Parker County, and as long as you sold for

441
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: there was no problem. You got arrested by another officer,

442
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: you were let out, no problem. But if you stopped

443
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: and you tried to get clean, and you said no,

444
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 3: I'm not going to do it, then things would happen.

445
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 3: Kids would come up missing, to the point where the

446
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 3: justice of the peace at the time would make the call.

447
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 3: If you showed up at a scene where somebody had

448
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 3: passed away, he would make the call whether to send

449
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 3: the body for an autopsy or not. There was a

450
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: guy named Jimmy Joe Hayes nineteen eighty six. He was

451
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 3: found hanging by the Brass River with his feet and

452
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 3: his hands bound. So the local funeral hunt went because

453
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 3: declared it a suicide. Mister had showed up and when

454
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 3: he saw the suicide, he said, Oh my gosh, how

455
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 3: could the guy commit suicide with his hands tied and

456
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 3: his feet tied together.

457
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: When you add hard drugs to the equation with truckloads

458
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: of money at stick, it changes the dynamic of murder

459
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: investigation considerably. And when you have a corner on the

460
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: ground seemingly working for law enforcement and not the truth,

461
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: those murders can be easily buried in the depths of silence.

462
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: Yet within a case where there is so much information

463
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: centered around forty two year old stories and so many

464
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: people are still scared of speaking out, where do you

465
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: even begin.

466
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 3: It was really bizarre for me when I started researching

467
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: this case to look back and think, oh my gosh,

468
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 3: my parents moved us out here for a better life.

469
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 3: Arlington was getting big, and then to come to find

470
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: out there was so much going on that we didn't

471
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 3: even know about. My mom was a real estate agent

472
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 3: and had never heard about Shelley and Vincent. People don't talk.

473
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: Since twenty twenty two, Laurie Kates has spent just about

474
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: every free moment she has invested in searching for answers

475
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: in two of the cold cases. I am here to

476
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 2: look into Michelle, Shelley Colliflower and Vincent t Jerina. She

477
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 2: makes phone calls, interviews witnesses, knocks on doors, digs into

478
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: county land and arrest records, chases leads down one rabbit

479
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 2: hole after the next. She has become a saving grace

480
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 2: for these families and also a bug in the ear

481
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: of those hoping to keep the secrets of the past buried.

482
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: I would probably not be involved without Laurie being persistent

483
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: and convincing me that there is so much going on

484
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: behind these murders. The deeper you get into the muck,

485
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 2: the thicker and greener the swamp water becomes.

486
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 3: When we move here in nineteen eighty three, I mean,

487
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 3: this was a small town, and it just floored me

488
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 3: when I found when I come across this case and

489
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 3: then found out about all the other things along the way,

490
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 3: and has floored me. It's been shocking.

491
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: Sixteen kids in the high school that year nineteen eighty

492
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 2: three where either murdered, died in strange accidents, or committed suicide.

493
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: For a town where there are only about twelve hundred

494
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: students in the entire school, that's a hell of a lot. Today,

495
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 2: more than that, any other time, you cannot bypass or

496
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: overlook the large amount of online slothing and social media

497
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 2: involved in cold cases. I have mixed feelings about online

498
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 2: true crime sleuthing groups, armchair investigators, and social media influencers

499
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: trading exploitation for and viral views. Laurie is not one

500
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 2: of those people. She is someone who gets up every

501
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 2: morning and answers her calling in life to find answers

502
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 2: for the Teagerina and Collie Flower families. That is her purpose.

503
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: This case is in her blood. It happened in her time.

504
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: She feels a kinship and connection to these kids and

505
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: their families who trust her unconditionally. And so why did

506
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 2: you begin getting involved with this justice page?

507
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 3: So? I was part of a group called the Fort

508
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 3: Worth Cold Case Club, and they were working on the

509
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 3: Carla Walker and murder, which has now been solved. They

510
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 3: had other little cold cases and we started researching and

511
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 3: that we hit a wall on this one case that

512
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 3: we were researching. And so I was just flipping around

513
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 3: on Facebook and show cousin had posted about Shelley Vincent's

514
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 3: murder and I thought, oh my gosh, I've never even

515
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 3: heard about this, and this was in my hometown. I

516
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 3: reached out and I got involved and I started sharing it,

517
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 3: and then COVID happened, and so you know, from twenty

518
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 3: nineteen till February twenty two, we didn't do a whole

519
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 3: lot because of COVID. That kind of shut down a lot.

520
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 3: But that's when I really started getting involved. Chief Lance

521
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 3: Arnold had private message me on Facebook. I've got all

522
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 3: the messages and wanted to set up a meeting. So

523
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 3: me and my friend went to this meeting. It was

524
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 3: a three hour meeting and that's when he told us

525
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 3: that there was evidence that was destroyed. There was a

526
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 3: city dup truck that backed up, There was supposedly a

527
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 3: rat infestation in a flood in the evidence room. And

528
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: they have no idea what was thrown away. They can't

529
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 3: find showing Vincent's clothes, They have no idea what happened

530
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 3: to them. The car, which was part of the crime

531
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 3: scene was given back to the family within a week

532
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 3: and then it sat out in the elements. It was

533
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 3: a three hour conversation with no dead space.

534
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 5: Why did he want to tell you all of this?

535
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 3: I think in the beginning he was he was being open,

536
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 3: and I think because it had got spread all over

537
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: because he told me that after I had made that post.

538
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 3: The reason he had reached out to me was because

539
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 3: within about an hour of that post, he had gotten

540
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 3: about ten phone calls and his wife was in the

541
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 3: kitchen cooking. He was in the living room, and she said, honey,

542
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 3: have you seen this? And he said, yep, I've gotten

543
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 3: you know, ten messages over this, and that's when he

544
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 3: reached out to me. So I don't know. You know,

545
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: that's a good question in a way, because at first

546
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 3: I thought that he was really wanting to help. So

547
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 3: he had told me, and I asked him too. He

548
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 3: said that they had five scenarios that they were working

549
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 3: on and they had marked it down to four. And

550
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 3: I asked him if we were in one of those

551
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 3: scenarios and he said yes. He said, well, that's really

552
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 3: not the direction we're heading, but if we need to,

553
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 3: we will. We'll go down that road because it's the

554
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 3: right thing to do.

555
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: The names I redacted you will here mentioned throughout the podcast,

556
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 2: and I apologize for the obstruction, but they have not

557
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 2: been charged with the crimes. So many different people are

558
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: accusing them of and if I am being straight up,

559
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 2: I am not yet convinced that scenario so many belief

560
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 2: is a viable answer for these murders.

561
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 6: All right, So you.

562
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 5: Reach out to me, and your hope is to.

563
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 3: Get justice, to get some answers. We want to get

564
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: who did it? The family deserves it.

565
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 2: And what made you think I could provide that?

566
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 3: You know what's so crazy is I saw you on

567
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 3: twenty twenty and I thought, because honestly, we have talked

568
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 3: to other podcasters. We've talked to some other people, but

569
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 3: I can see you telling their story. I listened to

570
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 3: your podcast. I'm like, Okay, this guy is a bulldog.

571
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 3: He will go out for the answers and he doesn't

572
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 3: care if he steps on some toast. And that's who

573
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 3: we need. We need somebody that's not scared.

574
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: March twenty fifth, nineteen eighty three, was a Friday. It

575
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: started out overcast. The rains would come later on that evening.

576
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 2: The day began like most others for Shelley Colliflower and

577
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 2: Vincent t Jerina. They had been dating for a few

578
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 2: months by then. Janetta Collie Flower Smith liked Vincent. He

579
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,439
Speaker 2: was two years older than Shelley and Mexican American, which

580
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 2: will become important as racially motivated accusations later emerge. Some

581
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 2: people didn't like the idea of a white girl dating

582
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: a Mexican American boy, and in the eighties this type

583
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: of direct racism was rampant and hardly hidden in any way,

584
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 2: as was in this part of the country. The ku

585
00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 2: Klux Klan Kkk. Janetta and Ronnie had plans. That weekend

586
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: was their wedding anniversary and they were heading out of town.

587
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 1: Ronnie and I were going to Brownwood for our anniversary.

588
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 1: That's where we bought our first house, and that's where

589
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: Shelley started school. So that morning we got up as normal.

590
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 1: It was on a Friday, on the twenty fifth of March,

591
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: and they rode the bus. But Shelley says, Mama, don't

592
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: you take to school today? And I said, okay, because

593
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: you know we were going to be gone, It's okay.

594
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: So here we go and there's a convenience store and

595
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: Shelley wanted to stop, so we went and we stopped

596
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: and they got well, Shelley did, Christy couldn't because she

597
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 1: wasn't old enough, you know, to take something to school

598
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 1: or whatever. And I won't ever forget ever. When she

599
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: walked out I thought how pretty she was, you know,

600
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just in uh, you know. And she

601
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: had a coke in one hand and a sucker in

602
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: the other one, a lollipop yes, And I said, you know,

603
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: there's the big girl in her and there's the other one,

604
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: the child in her. But I thought she was so

605
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: beautiful that day. So we take Christie's school first, you know,

606
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: when it's the usual routine. We get a kiss and

607
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: you know, I love you, and you know, I love you, mama,

608
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 1: and that, and so then I take Shelley to school

609
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: and she just happy, go lucky, you know, she had

610
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: her books share then you had books. And she gets

611
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: out of the car and she she turned around and

612
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: looks at me, and it was a different kind of

613
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: I mean, and she goes, Mama, I love you, goodbye.

614
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: That was the last words I heard from when that

615
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: was the last time.

616
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 3: I saw her.

617
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 2: Ronnie didn't want Shelley dating Vincent, let alone going out

618
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 2: with him at night by themselves, but they had not

619
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 2: told Ronnie about the date. Vincent had borrowed his father's

620
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 2: Monte Carlo for the night so he and Shelley could

621
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: go on their first card day. As most everyone put

622
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: it later on, they had been talking about this night

623
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 2: for weeks. The Collie Flowers neighbor Debbie Billingsley, whom you

624
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: heard earlier in the episode, babysat for Janetta at times

625
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 2: after school because Janetta and Ronnie were heading out of town.

626
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: Janetta picked the girls up and dropped them off at

627
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 2: Debbie's where they would stay the weekend. Ronie got home

628
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 2: from work, he and Janetta would leave dev How did

629
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: you meet Shelley's family? When did you meet them?

630
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 4: Well, we lived on a little corner house and the

631
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 4: elementary school was two blocks from our house, and I

632
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 4: met Shelley's mother. I volunteered to head off a group

633
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 4: for campfire girls. I had two daughters. They were both

634
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,919
Speaker 4: young enough and wanted to do that, so we got

635
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,919
Speaker 4: involved in campfire and john Etta brought her youngest daughter,

636
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 4: Christi and signed up for campfire, and sometimes Shelley would

637
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 4: come with her and we would all work together with

638
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 4: the kids. That's how I met her, and we just

639
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 4: became good friends. Ronnie Cauliflower was very well known in

640
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 4: Weatherford in his younger days. He played football and at

641
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 4: one point in time probably had the possibility to go

642
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 4: pro and he was in college and busted up his

643
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 4: knee and couldn't play anymore. So they moved back to

644
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 4: Weatherford settled in, and john Wait was a very pretty girl.

645
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 4: Of course, our family came from, like I said, my

646
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 4: dad was an alcoholic and our family came from the

647
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 4: wrong side of town. So Ronnie didn't like me at all,

648
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 4: and he kept telling john Etta this, she shouldn't have

649
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 4: anything to do with us, and she said, well, Debbie's

650
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 4: been a good friend to me and we just kind

651
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 4: of grew to know one another that a way. And

652
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 4: she told me that they were having a lot of

653
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 4: marital problems and their anniversary was coming up, and she

654
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 4: wanted to know if I could keep the kids for

655
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,919
Speaker 4: the weekend, the girls, and I told her, I said, yeah,

656
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 4: it's no problem. And she said, well, i'll bring them

657
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 4: to you on Friday. And she said, Shelley has a

658
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 4: date with a young boy named Vincent, and it's okay

659
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,439
Speaker 4: for her to go on this date. And I said,

660
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 4: so you're given me your permission for her to go,

661
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 4: and she said yes, but I want her home by midnight.

662
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 4: So that's how that all came about.

663
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: And had you ever met of Vincent?

664
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:14,359
Speaker 4: No, not until that night.

665
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 3: No.

666
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 4: I had heard a lot about him, that he was

667
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 4: really a nice young man. I don't think I ever

668
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 4: really heard anything bad. He was real into karate, very

669
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 4: motivated with his school work. I'd never really heard anything.

670
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 4: I knew of his family because of the karate, and

671
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 4: there was always stuff in the newspaper about him. And

672
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 4: of course back then there was no cell phones, you know,

673
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 4: it was just all public phones on the corners and this,

674
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 4: that and the other. But I had never really heard

675
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 4: anything bad about him at all. I didn't know anything.

676
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 2: I asked her if there was any talk about Vincent

677
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 2: being Latino Shelley being white.

678
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 4: Yes. Ronnie did not like that. He told Johnetta, I

679
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 4: do not want her dating that boy. It's not allowed.

680
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 4: But I didn't know that at the time. I found

681
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 4: that out later on, and I don't think, well, I

682
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,479
Speaker 4: know when this all happened. Ronnie did not know that

683
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 4: john Etta had gave me permission for Shelley to go

684
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 4: on this date, and he held me accountable for it

685
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 4: happening because I allowed her to go.

686
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 2: I wondered if Debbie could comment about Shelley's demeanor that Friday.

687
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 2: Looking at this objectively, you have to consider that the

688
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 2: kids had some sort of plan beyond just driving around.

689
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: They're teenagers. They tell their parents one thing, do another.

690
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 2: That's normal and realistic. Tracing their movements every moment becomes vital.

691
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: Who they to, where they went, who they saw, who

692
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 2: saw them.

693
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 4: It was a Friday afternoon when john Etta brought the

694
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 4: girls to my house. We talked standing out in the

695
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 4: front yard. She was getting ready to go home because

696
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 4: her and Ronnie were leaving that evening, and she said,

697
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 4: now they can go on the date. It's fine, don't

698
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 4: worry about it. Everything will be okay. And I said, okay,

699
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 4: so I've got your permission for her to go. She

700
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 4: said yes, So they left and the girls and I

701
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 4: all went in. Shelley was very excited about the date,

702
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 4: you know, just giddy like a fourteen year old girl

703
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 4: would be, telling me how nice Vincent was or respectful

704
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,359
Speaker 4: he was, and that she had never had anybody pay

705
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 4: that kind of attention to her. They got to the

706
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 4: house about four thirty or five that afternoon and he

707
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 4: picked her up. I'm going to say between six and

708
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 4: six thirty. He came to the house, he come up

709
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 4: to the door, he came in introduced hisself. She look

710
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 4: hands with My husband was very nice, very polite. He said,

711
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 4: I'll have her home before midnight, he said, because I

712
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 4: have a karate tournament tomorrow. He said, so I have

713
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 4: to be home by eleven. He said, so I'll have

714
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 4: her home way before then. He said, I promise I'll

715
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 4: take care of her.

716
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 2: One of the things Shelley and Vincent had in common

717
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: was their love of horses. Vincent was in the tenth grade,

718
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 2: Shelley a freshman. Vincent had talked about wanting to be

719
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 2: an Air Force pilot. Shelley mentioned cosmetology school and teaching.

720
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 2: Vincent's mother later recalled that Vincent read the Bible every day,

721
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: could recite verses, and she had hoped he'd going to

722
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: the priesthood. Everyone I have spoken to had nothing but

723
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: praise and love for both of these kids. They got

724
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: excellent grades, never caused problems, didn't get into trouble, and

725
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 2: did not hang around the kids taking drugs or They

726
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 2: had found each other, seemed content and even distanced themselves

727
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:06,879
Speaker 2: from the clicks.

728
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 4: They left, and it was a really stormy hunt, lots

729
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 4: of storms. My grandmother was at our house, and so

730
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 4: I loaded the three girls up and my grandmother took

731
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 4: her to my mom's and I took the younger girl's

732
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 4: roller skating, and I stayed at the skating rink with them,

733
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 4: and we got back home around ten or so. The

734
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 4: girls got their baths and made popcorn and went in

735
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 4: to watch a movie, and midnight rolled around. She wasn't home.

736
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 4: I was really getting scared and worried. Before she left,

737
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 4: I gave her four quarters and a piece of paper

738
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 4: with my name and phone number written on it, and

739
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 4: I told her, I said, if you get in a

740
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 4: situation that you're uncomfortable, all you have to do is

741
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 4: call me and I'll come in get you. There'll be

742
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 4: no questions asked. And when they found her, the quarters

743
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 4: were still there, but the piece of paper with my

744
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 4: name and number was gone, So I had no idea

745
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 4: who had that.

746
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 5: As midnight rolls around, what are you doing?

747
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 4: I'm pacing the floors because it's really storming out. My

748
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 4: husband and I are getting really antsy because she's not home.

749
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 4: Because Vincent said he had to be home by eleven

750
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 4: and that he would have her home before then. My

751
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 4: husband said, Hey, I'm just going to get in the

752
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 4: car and I'm gonna go drive around town and see

753
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 4: if I can see anything. And he left and came back,

754
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 4: and he said, I didn't find them. I didn't see

755
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 4: their car anywhere. He stayed there for a while. One

756
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 4: o'clock rolls, around two o'clock, he goes out again, looking again.

757
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 2: As the night turns into the early morning hours of

758
00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 2: March twenty sixth, fear turns to dread. There is no

759
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 2: way Vincent would keep Shelley out all night long and

760
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 2: not call or come back and explain why they were

761
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 2: so late. He was an extremely responsible, dependable boy. Also,

762
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 2: Vincent was a disciplined student of karate and had a

763
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 2: tournament the next day, so he had to get up early.

764
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 2: Debbie knew in her gut something was very wrong because

765
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 2: Janetta and Ronnie were out of town. The first thing

766
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: she did was called Vincent Tejerina Senior, Vincent's father, and

767
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 2: explain what was happening. Vincent Senior immediately set out in

768
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: the second family vehicle to search for the kids. After that,

769
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 2: Debi tracked down Ronnie and Janetta and told them what

770
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 2: was happening. That Shelley was missing, and.

771
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 4: The next time we saw it was in the funeral.

772
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:06,240
Speaker 2: Home coming up in the next episode of Paper Ghosts.

773
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 6: And then I heard it again. I heard like a

774
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 6: thunder noise, and then I heard what sounded like a gunshot,

775
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:15,760
Speaker 6: and then I think I may have heard it maybe

776
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 6: one or two more times, and then that was it.

777
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, if they did not want you in

778
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: the city, they would run you out.

779
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 7: Period.

780
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 3: We were always told.

781
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:28,879
Speaker 1: Never say when it gets dark.

782
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 3: As soon as it even starts to get dark, you

783
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 3: leave immediately because that was known to be where the

784
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 3: KKK would come and you know, do their nightly things

785
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 3: or whatever meetings.

786
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: So if you were in the wrong place at the

787
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 2: wrong time, then you would get.

788
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: Caught at that.

789
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 8: Oh the girl passing your side, she was laying back ester,

790
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 8: she was dressed. He was on the driver's side. She

791
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,720
Speaker 8: was landing more toward the door than the window. Okay,

792
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:05,280
Speaker 8: and back who would right on the grounded the ground

793
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 8: origin We're leaked out of the car Lake dele Car.

794
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 2: Check out my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with m

795
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 2: William Phelps, where I delve into a new missing person

796
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,439
Speaker 2: and cold case murder each week. Wherever you get your

797
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 2: favorite shows. Paper Ghost season five is written and executive

798
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 2: produced by me M William Phelps. Script consulting by iHeartMedia

799
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 2: Executive producer Catherine Law, Production by toc Boom Productions, Audio

800
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 2: mastering and mixing by Brandon Dicker. The series' theme number

801
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,280
Speaker 2: four four to two is written and performed by Thomas

802
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 2: Phelps and Tom Mooney