1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and eight. 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: Sarah will be interviewing Emily Auster, who has been on 12 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: our program in the past, but is back because she 13 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: has a brand new book out called The Family Firm, 14 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: which is all about how we can make smart decisions, 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: mindful decisions about how we raise our children, particularly through 16 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: the elementary school years. It's a great book. Sarah and 17 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: I both enjoyed it, and so I know she's going 18 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: to have a lot of great things to say. I 19 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,279 Speaker 1: also know that a lot of our listeners have become 20 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: more involved in Emily's universe over the past year and 21 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: a half as she has been writing a lot about 22 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: the COVID research out there and how it relates to 23 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: children and schools and things like that. So you guys 24 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: talk about that in the interview as well, Sarah, Right, 25 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: we do, And to be I'm thinking about the interview 26 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: and as we did it, the cases had been really low, 27 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: and honestly they've gone up a bit since we recorded. 28 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: So you know, as we kind of talked about, making 29 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: decisions has to do with putting in all the inputs 30 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: about risk and what you're willing to live with, and 31 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,839 Speaker 1: some of those equations may be a little bit different 32 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: than what we were talking about at that time. So 33 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: I hope I neither of us came off as in 34 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: minimizing anything. Obviously, the pandemic is still kind of happening 35 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: to some extent, though it is different now. And anyway, 36 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: I just wanted to add that in there, that things 37 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: were a bit different when we recorded. That's yeah. One 38 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: of the things that you know Emily talks about in 39 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: her book that we also want to open up this 40 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: episode with a discussion of is screen time. So this 41 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: is something that Sarah has been thinking about a lot, 42 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: You've been blogging about. You guys have a new screen 43 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: time policy in your household, at least for now, I do. 44 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: At least all things are by definition fluid. And I 45 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: think I even told the kids for the month or 46 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: something like that, like I don't even want to attempt 47 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: to say this is our new life. But we were 48 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: struggling with a lot of I think what took me 49 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: over the edge was one child was on there I've 50 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: had for quite some time and looked up and then 51 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: when I told them to get off of it, like 52 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: things were thrown at me, and I was just like, okay, 53 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: something is like not agreeing with this kid, Like I 54 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: don't need things thrown at me. Obviously, Laura is not 55 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: a fan of like the narrative of like this one 56 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: thing happened and we changed everything, But we didn't change everything. 57 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: We just decided we needed a little bit of a break. 58 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: And I don't think that screen time affects all of 59 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: my children equally, but at least one of them see 60 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: to really struggle with life for quite some time afterwards, 61 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: and we were also a little bit worried about the 62 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: health implications of them sitting around honestly for sometimes many 63 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: hours on weekends and in order to try to encourage 64 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: a little bit more physical activity with that time. We're 65 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: just taking a break, so I don't even know what 66 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: my rules are. We told them no iPads for the month. Honestly, 67 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure we will bring them back in some form. 68 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: We're only allowing them to basically watch one show on 69 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: weeknights after they have already read and helped cleaned up, 70 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: and the weekends were going to limit their screen time 71 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: to two hours. I'm sure we'll go. Oh and I 72 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: said they could use iPads if Josh was on call, 73 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: because I felt like that was I mean, I'm going 74 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: to have to deal with the aftermath. But at the 75 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: same time, like when you're so parenting, you need your break. Yeah, 76 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: so I don't know. Again, work in progress. We've had 77 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: a decent week. There wasn't that much fighting over there, 78 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: so that's good. We'll see how things go. Yeah, yeah, 79 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: we've you know, I've flirted with the idea of screen 80 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: time limits in the past, but I mean what I've read, 81 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: I haven't found any particular evidence that there's a particular 82 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: quantity of time, or that universally it's terrible for kids 83 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: or anything like that. I'm sure there's particular kids that 84 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: have bad reactions to it. And if that is the case, 85 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: and any of our listeners know that about your children, 86 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: then obviously you do whatever you have to do. I 87 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: think in our case, especially as the kids are older, 88 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: it's just how people communicate, Like this is how they 89 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: talk with their friends, it's how they do their homework. 90 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: I have a couple of kids who are into actually programming, 91 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: like learning how to program their own video games. They've 92 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: been building their own video games. Like I think that 93 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: would be really ridiculous of me to be like, you 94 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: can't do that, because I only want you to be 95 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: on screens for an hour a day, Like I mean, 96 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: that's no different than them woodworking or something as a hobby. 97 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: And some of the stuff they're watching is pretty good too, 98 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: Like Alex has been really into all these science videos 99 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: that he's coming up and telling me like, wow, you know, 100 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: the top of the pool feels like the atmosphere of 101 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: Venus while the bottom feels like the atmosphere of Neptune 102 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: or something like that. And so, you know, I don't 103 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: begrudge him finding that out, that there are different temperatures 104 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: in the solar system. So my current thought about it 105 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: is that the question is whether it crowds out other things, 106 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: like you are saying, like if they're sitting on their 107 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: butts all day and not doing anything physical, or they're 108 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: refusing to help out with chores or anything like that, 109 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: that's a problem. They're partly just so busy right now 110 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: that there's just not enough time to spend ten hours 111 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: a day on the screens. Everyone is in various camps, 112 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: people have activities like we've got karate, we've got tennis, 113 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: so we've got swim lessons, we've got rock climbing, everything else. Like, 114 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: there's just not enough time to have too much screens, 115 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: so I'm trying not to. You know, we do family 116 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: activities on the weekends. They fit in around that, and 117 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: that's okay. I'm also trying to make other things more attractive. 118 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: So we have a general policy that if you want 119 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: a book, you can get it, and that means that 120 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: that's always a really cool attractive thing, Like you can 121 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: always get a book you want, so that hopefully sometimes 122 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: at least that's more attractive. And I take the phones 123 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: away at night before they go to bed so that 124 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: there's screen free never in the bedroom while they're supposed 125 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: to be sleeping. And relaxing and all that, and all 126 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: of that sounds completely reasonable to me. I also thought 127 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: it was funny people are like, well, my thirteen year old, 128 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, but I don't have a thirteen year old. 129 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: Oh I'm sure I will. Things will be very, very different, 130 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: and who knows, they'll all be on watches or like 131 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: something else in four years. I don't know our hologrant Well, okay, 132 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: maybe hologrant, but like you know, I have a three 133 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: year old, a seven year old, and a nine year 134 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: old right now, so that's kind of what's working. And 135 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: I mean to be again like I don't want to 136 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: throw any one kid under the bus, but like, if 137 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: the behaviors were different with certain kids, then I might 138 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: feel differently. But that's just where we have to be 139 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: at this moment. I don't I don't feel like sanctimonious 140 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: about it. I just feel like this is what fits 141 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: right now. I want to be a hologram. I'll be 142 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: the hologram that follows my kids around. What would your 143 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: mother say? I feel like holograms. I feel like we 144 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: have that technology maybe, but I don't know if it's 145 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: going to hit the mainstream right it be our helmets 146 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: where they're having dates. We have that, we have that, 147 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying, like to be having play dates 148 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: with their helmets on, so they think they're in the 149 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: same place but they're not and whatever. Yeah, something a 150 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: lot of virtual play dates, like during COVID for instance, 151 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: you know, playing video games and friends. It was actually 152 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: a really cool way to stay in touch with people 153 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: when we couldn't play in person. So yeah, upside to 154 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: some screen time there. No, it's true, the collaborative roeblocks 155 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: and Minecraft like it was a lot. It was a 156 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: lot of good stuff. All right. Well, let's hear what 157 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: Emily Oster has to say. All right. I am here 158 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: with Professor Emily Oser. She is one of the few 159 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: people who has ever been a repeat guest on Best 160 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: of Both Worlds. We're so excited to have her. Why 161 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: don't you go ahead and introduce yourself. Emily. Hi, I'm 162 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: Emily Astor. I'm a professor of economics at Brown University, 163 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: and I'm an author, and I'm super excited to be 164 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: back here and talk to you. Yay. I think we 165 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: had you a couple of years ago after you had 166 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: published Expecting Better and maybe Cribsheets had come out and 167 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: we talked about some of your evidence data driven guide 168 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: to those parts of parenting. But you've made quite the 169 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: name for yourself, I think over the past year during 170 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: the COVID pandemic, and we're going to talk about some 171 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: of that, And you have a new book out which 172 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: I truly enjoyed that we're going to talk about. I 173 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: think in the second half of today's episode. I can't wait. Yay, Okay, 174 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,119 Speaker 1: So let's start with dive into the whole COVID experience. 175 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: I'm not just going to say how was it for you, 176 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: because that's a little basic, but tell me a little 177 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: bit about how your work ended up pivoting a little 178 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: bit around COVID. So I had sort of coming into COVID, 179 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: like in January of twenty twenty. I had started this newsletter, 180 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: of course, not intending for it to be about COVID, 181 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: which we didn't know about at that but just intending 182 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: for it to be a place to kind of connect 183 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: with people who were reading my books and talking about 184 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: data and parenting, and as with everything else, it sort 185 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: of pivoted into being really about COVID, partly because just 186 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: all the questions I was getting were questions about COVID 187 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: and what to do and how to think about COVID 188 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: and how to think about the data. And one of 189 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: the things I started doing a lot of was writing 190 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: about decision making and sort of decision making under uncertainty 191 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: in this space, which was a relates to a lot 192 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: of the questions that I talk about in the books, 193 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: but obviously is different in the world of COVID. And 194 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: I think probably the kind of pivotal pandemic moment in 195 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: some ways for me was this time in May of 196 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,599 Speaker 1: twenty twenty when I wrote a post about like grandparents 197 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: and daycare and how to think about sort of sending 198 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: your kid to daycare and how to think about seeing 199 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: grandparents and that kind of framework for thinking that through. 200 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: And I think that resonated with a lot of people. 201 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: It's actually kind of related to some of the stuff 202 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: family Firm, but I think that idea of sort of 203 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: you're in control of making these decisions and here's a 204 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: way to do it. I think that was helpful, I 205 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: hope for many people. And then it sort of led 206 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: into doing much more of this stuff over the last year. 207 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: So I've just been doing COVID decision making and stuff 208 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: about COVID basically the whole time. I know it was 209 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: helpful for me. I definitely there was this hard period 210 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: of time when everything was very very black and white, 211 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: and it felt like even discussing thinking about risks and 212 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: actually calculating and thinking about why we're making different decisions 213 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: was almost like frowned upon. So I felt like your 214 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: newsletter was one of the first places where I was like, actually, 215 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: let's do some math and think about how are our 216 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: decisions in this context, which is wildly different, but how 217 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: do they compare too decisions we've made at other times. 218 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: Could you talk even a little bit more about that 219 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: visiting grandparents post and kind of the thought process that 220 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: went through gauging risk and how you explained risk to people, 221 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: maybe a little bit about the response. Yeah. Sure. So 222 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: at that time, I think this was kind of we 223 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: were coming out of these first sort of stage of 224 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: like everybody is locked down, everyone's in their house, and 225 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: starting to ask these questions about Okay, my kid's daycare 226 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: is reopening, or you know, now it's can I see 227 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: I haven't seen my parents in two months, three months? 228 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: Like can I see them? Are their safe ways to 229 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: do that? I think you're exactly right. That people had 230 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: initially was sort of like, well, there's totally black and white, 231 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: like don't do anything, don't leave your don't leave your house. 232 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: But there became a point where at least some people 233 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: started thinking about not doing that, and I think a 234 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: lot of people felt very trapped in the question. I 235 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: just don't know how to think about this in the 236 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: new world, and so kind of what I tried to 237 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: do was both give people a little data and give 238 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: them a framework to think about that, which started with 239 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 1: the idea of just being very explicit about what the 240 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: question was that they were asking. And in a sense, 241 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: although that is really obvious, I think that it was 242 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: the piece that people It was a piece that was 243 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: missing for a lot of people. So telling you, well, 244 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: look what you want to do is ask, you know, 245 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: should I see my parents or not? But should I 246 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: see my parents now or in two weeks or now, 247 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: or in six months or now or not until the vaccine? 248 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: And I think that kind of idea that you really 249 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: need to think about what the alternatives are, the concrete 250 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: alternatives are, I think was already somewhat helpful because sometimes 251 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: people would say, well, you know what, like I'm actually 252 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: it's not like I'm not willing to wait until there's 253 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: a vaccine, Like I cannot imagine doing that, And so 254 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: then it totally changes how I'm going to think about 255 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: this choice when I know, no matter when I see them, 256 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: there's going to be some risk, and so the question is, 257 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: then how do we kind of mitigate the risk? How 258 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: do we evaluate the size of the risks? And then 259 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: I spend a lot of time talking to people about, Okay, 260 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: what exactly can you do to make these risks smaller, 261 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: what's the value of testing, what's the value of quarantine, 262 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: how do we think about those risks? And then how 263 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: big are they relative to some other risks that you 264 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: undertake every day? And so I would say like a 265 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: huge portion of my brain space both then and then 266 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 1: for the rest of the pandemic is just thinking about 267 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: different ways to help people think about the size of risks, 268 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: and different ways to kind of frame particularly small risks 269 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: so people can understand are they small, how small are they, 270 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: how do they compare to other to other risks? And 271 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,839 Speaker 1: so that's that's a huge amount of what I've been 272 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: talking about over the last year. I mean, truthfully, every 273 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: time you leave the house there's risk, but also saying 274 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: in the househouse risks too. I'm a pediatric endocrinologist and 275 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: we're working on some research on the enormous rise and 276 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: type two diabetes diagnosis we've seen over the last year. 277 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: So it's funny nobody would have even thought about that 278 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: risk before. But life has risks every second. So I 279 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: think your work really did bring that to my brain 280 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: into the forefront of actually we can quantify it like 281 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: a lot of what you did was multiply, multiply divide 282 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: like multiple math. It was just math. No, And I think, 283 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I think one thing that has emerged really 284 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: strongly over the pandemic that I think is we're still 285 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: grappling with is there actually have been a lot of 286 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 1: and even if you totally limit to medical issues, that 287 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 1: kind of intense focus on COVID avoidance has not been 288 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: without its own medical costs, be it lack of cancer 289 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: diagnoses or mental health issues or obesity or other things 290 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: like that. I do think that there were trade offs 291 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: there that we maybe didn't recognize as much at the time. Yes, no, absolutely, 292 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: I know there was a little bit of backlash and 293 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: that must have been very not fun at a time 294 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: when we were all stressed out, and I know I 295 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: could tell from your writing that all you were trying 296 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: to do was help people and do scientific work. Part 297 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: of me felt like some of that was from the 298 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: idea that any risk at all related to our children 299 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: is unacceptable, and I was wondering if you could, I 300 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: don't know, elaborate on that a little bit. Yeah, I 301 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: think there were sort of two pieces. There have been 302 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: sort of two pieces of backlash. One is kind of 303 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: when we are talking about a contagious disease, when you 304 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: make choices about doing things that has consequences for people 305 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: outside of the immediate group that you're in. You know, 306 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,119 Speaker 1: I try to talk about that, but I think inherently 307 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: when you are talking about personal decisions, there is a 308 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: kind of like overarching you know, well, you need to 309 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: think about how this is going to matter for other people. 310 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: I think, particularly in this sort of early period, that 311 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: was something where people just found it hard to think about. 312 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: And it's a little different than a personal choice. But 313 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: the thing that has continued to be a big piece 314 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: of the discussion, particularly around kids, even post vaccines, are 315 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: these questions of well, how do I think about risks 316 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: to my kids? And I think that what has happened 317 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: is that this has become for people a salient risk 318 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: that has taken on a totally different character than every 319 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: other risk. And so you know, when you sometimes when 320 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: I talk to people, I will kind of realize that 321 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: when they think about the idea of their kid yetting COVID, 322 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: they sort of are processing that as like that is far, far, 323 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: far worse then getting RSV or the flu or any like. 324 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: That's just that's like a uniquely bad thing to happen, 325 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: not because they'll spread it to other people or something 326 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: else which is literally uniquely bad for them. And I 327 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: don't think that's really supported by the data from what 328 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: we know about the sort of risk of serious illness 329 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: in kids. And yet somehow it's sort of got it's 330 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: gotten coded that way, and I think that's something that 331 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: people push back a lot to what I say, you know, well, 332 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: you're understating the risk of COVID. It's like, no, I 333 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: don't think that. I don't see it that way, because 334 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: I think that our data is suggesting that COVID is 335 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: not high risk rhigh risk for kids. But that's been 336 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: a hard thing to communicate and for people to understand. 337 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: I think, well, I think the problem there is like 338 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: it's this new thing and it's not zero risk. I mean, 339 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: we've had admissions for MISC at our hospital. But at 340 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: the same time, like we sent our kids to daycare 341 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: and went outside before when RSV and flu were around, 342 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: and now we have this disease that I mean, listeners 343 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: to this podcast know my three kids had COVID and 344 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: they were truly asymptomatic. So now I'm just like sort 345 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: of Okay, now they have antibodies and they're too young 346 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: for the vaccine, but I'm sort of happy they have 347 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: a little protection. So I don't know, now I'm going 348 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: to get planned for that. No, but I think, I mean, 349 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: but it is you know, I have taught it, like, 350 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: you know, one of my kids in my son's class 351 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: at some point had COVID not during school, and you know, 352 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: I remember talking to his mom about it and she 353 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, you know, we were so terrified about this, 354 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: and it's not that I would have wanted it, but 355 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: kind of the realization of it was very different than 356 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: I expected. I sort of thought this would be a 357 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: totally different kind of illness than anything we'd experienced, but 358 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: in fact, they just had a cold, and I don't 359 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: want to minimize because we don't want I mean, somebody 360 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: in my family could have ended up with long COVID. 361 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,239 Speaker 1: We could have spread it to someone who's immune is suppressed. Like, 362 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: I'm very grateful it worked out. So just to circle 363 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: back on that, we didn't take it lightly at the time. 364 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: But I see what you're saying in terms of all 365 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: diseases can have bad outcomes, and we just shouldn't be 366 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: applying one special type of thinking to COVID. We should 367 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: be rational about applying the same tool set that we 368 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 1: would apply to flu in RSV and all kinds of 369 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: other bad things. Yeah, And I think that's become sort 370 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: of increasingly true over the past say six months, right, 371 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: So I think there was really, like, earlier on in 372 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: the pandemic, before the vaccines, I think there was a 373 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: strong argument for saying, look, you know, we need to like, 374 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: keeping kids from getting COVID is protecting people who, if 375 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: they get COVID, will die, because absolutely, particularly for older adults, 376 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: the mortality risks from COVID are totally different from the flu. 377 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: It's way more serious. You know, that's sort of obviously true. 378 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: We have now arrived at a point where, you know, 379 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: with widespread vaccinations in the US, higher risk people who 380 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: would like to be protected are able to be protected. 381 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: And now we're sort of much more in a space 382 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: where the question is, you know, how are we thinking 383 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: about kids in particular? And I think that's changed the 384 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: calculus a little bit. No, that totally makes sense. Awesome. Well, 385 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: I am not going to be labor COVID too much 386 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: because I want to talk about all of the well 387 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: not all, but many of the kind of decision points 388 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: in the Family Firm, which is the book that is 389 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: going to be released, is it in August? August? Yeah? 390 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: I truly enjoyed reading this book, and there is a 391 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: little bit of discussion of COVID, I think at the 392 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: end of at the end correctly, yes, the epilogue, but 393 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: most of it is on just different topics that come 394 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: up often as your kids exit that baby stage. Why 395 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: don't you just talk a little bit about the impetus 396 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 1: that you felt for creating this volume, which I think 397 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: is a little bit different than your first couple in 398 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: the first place. Yeah, it is. So, you know, the 399 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: first two books are really kind of very focused around 400 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: the data and the idea that Okay, like you're going 401 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: to face these decisions and pregnancy and kind of early parenting, 402 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: and they're going to questions are going to come up, 403 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: like circumcision or swaddling, and you know, the data has 404 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 1: kind of a good answer for you, or at least 405 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: tells you a lot of what you need to know 406 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: to make these decisions. As my kids got older, I 407 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 1: realized that data was not as helpful in those ways 408 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: as it had been when they were younger. In particular, 409 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: as our kids get older, they get more different. Like 410 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: so sometimes I explain this people like there's just more heterogeneity, 411 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: like what's good for one kid is not good for 412 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: another kid. The circumstances the family find themselves are different 413 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: across families. What people want to prioritize is in some 414 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: ways more different. And so there are many fewer things 415 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: where you would say, Okay, well I'm just going to 416 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: like let me just show you the data on swaddling, 417 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: like does it work, what are the impacts? Is it bad? 418 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: You know, does it hurt their hips? Okay, there's things 419 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: like what school should my kid go to? Are not 420 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: like should I swaddle them? They're just not like that, 421 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: And so when I sat down to think about, you know, 422 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: is there something that I have to say about this 423 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: period of life, I realized that there was still a 424 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: lot of interesting data. And in some ways, I think 425 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: the data pieces were really fun for me here because 426 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: there's like some super interesting stuff to learn. I mean, 427 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: I like totally nerded out about this stuff on sleep 428 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 1: and food and reading and all this kind of stuff. 429 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: It was like really interesting. But those data pieces rarely 430 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,239 Speaker 1: kind of fully answered the questions with older kids. And 431 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: so the first part of the book is really a 432 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: decision making book. It's really about kind of how to 433 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: parent deliberately and the idea of using tools from business 434 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: decision making to kind of shape your family life in 435 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: a way that then you can draw in these pieces 436 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: of data to make the decisions, and that you can 437 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: have a framework to use them to make the decisions 438 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: that like work for your family. So in a sense, 439 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: it's it's sort of two books. It's like a book 440 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: that's all about these data pieces that's I think interesting 441 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: and people will will enjoy, but also it's a book 442 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: about decision making. It's like a it's a business book 443 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: where the business is parenting. It's about your process it's 444 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: about you walk me through like in the Emily Oster Household. 445 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: I guess you know you can. You can disguise some 446 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: stuff like how you might approach that decision around. I 447 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: can use an example from your book, like I want 448 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: to play travel soccer. Mom. Yeah, so I think in 449 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: our house, to be fair, travel soccer would not come 450 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: up because my family doesn't the two ball sports. But 451 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: you know, I think that's it's a reasonable there are 452 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: related questions we'd have. So I mean, I think the 453 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: first thing that we would ask there is is this 454 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 1: even a question we want to engage with because is 455 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: it something that would fit in our family lifestyle? So 456 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: I sort of talk about this kind of four step 457 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: decision process about sort of framing the question. So the 458 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: first question there would be, you know, is it should 459 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: we do? It's really sort of should we do travel 460 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: soccer or not? But also trying to encourage people to say, 461 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: you know, should we do travel soccer or is there 462 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: something else? You know, is it travel soccer or regular soccer? 463 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: Is it travel soccer or track? Is it travel soccer 464 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: or no exercise at all? What is really the question? 465 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: And then there's a portion of the decision making which 466 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: is really about data and what I call fact finding, 467 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: where one of the piece of that is to try 468 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: to think about what are like, are there risks to 469 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: travel soccer or are their benefits to travel soccer? Are 470 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: there reasons I would like my kids to do this 471 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: sport or not do this sport? Am I worried about 472 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: concussions like a real data piece, But actually the biggest piece, 473 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: and this is kind of in our household, which be 474 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: really the biggest thing, is to think about how is 475 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: this going to fit in with all the other stuff 476 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: that I'm doing. So, like to give you a concrete example, 477 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: my family's dinner every night at six That's like it's 478 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: just like our thing. It's really important to my husband 479 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: and I. It's like one of our sort of top 480 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: family priorities is having dinner together. It's not everybody's top 481 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: family priority. It's a big thing for us. If travel 482 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: soccer interfered with family dinner, we would not do it. 483 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: I think we wouldn't really engage anything else because if 484 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: we found like basically travel soccer means like you're gonna 485 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: miss dinner three nights a week, we would not even 486 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: discuss doing it because we have sort of x Andy 487 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: decided that, like this dinner thing is like a big 488 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: family priority for us. And I think that idea is 489 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: really key to a lot of the stuff that I'm 490 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: suggesting in the book. Is the idea that if you 491 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: at the beginning of whatever, like family planning, family stuff 492 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: you do, if at the beginning you sit down and 493 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: you say, here are the things that are really important. 494 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: Here are the things I really care about that I 495 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: really really want to be priorities for our family, that's 496 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: going to dictate a lot of what you do. But 497 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: it's also going to make some of that later decision 498 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: making easier, and you will not wake up and find 499 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: that you committed to travel soccer when in fact you're 500 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: very sad about it because it got in the way 501 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: of this other thing that really you did care about before, 502 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: but you hadn't actually said that you cared about it. 503 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: I know there's a chapter about family dinner in your 504 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: book which set me off a little bit on a 505 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: tailspin of my own because it's not feasible for our family. 506 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: I wish it was. My husband's a surgeon. The chances 507 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: of him getting home for dinner are basically like two 508 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: percent every night, So like if we were going to 509 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: plan on it, it would just be a nightly disappointment exercise. 510 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: I guess I could have family dinner without him, but 511 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: that's I mean, I've tried. It's not as the same. 512 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: So I guess because people who just listen to your 513 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: example are probably now like, oh, God, what am I 514 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: doing wrong if I don't have family dinner? Talk about 515 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: that in your book and actually felt better because I 516 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: felt like the evidence that you laid out suggested that, well, 517 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, do you want to go Yeah, no, no, 518 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: it's right. So I think people, you know, I sort 519 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: of talk about family dinner because it takes on this 520 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: like this sort of like mythical like if people have 521 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: the family meal, and you know, I've definitely had people 522 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: tell me like, oh, if you don't have a family meal, 523 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: like your kids will be a serial killer. It's like, 524 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: that's not you know. So I kind of go through 525 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: the data on this, and I think part of this 526 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: is a place where it's very very difficult to figure 527 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: out are there actually impacts of sitting down for family meal, 528 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: Because on the one hand, there's a pretty high correlation 529 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: between that and some other kind of outcomes that you 530 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: value for your kids. On the other hand, the differences 531 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: across families in who has this and why are really 532 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: big and really really difficult to control for. And you know, 533 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: the other the other thing that I kind of really 534 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: kind of highlight in that chapter is that, you know, 535 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: we talk about this like the only time you could 536 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: have sort of like focus time with your family would 537 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: be at dinner, but that isn't actually true. And my 538 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: sense is that a lot of the benefits that you 539 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: would get from this are benefits that you could get 540 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: from other kinds of sort of concentrated family time. That 541 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: it's not the act necessarily of sitting down and eating 542 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: the dinner that is like the magic. Not that it 543 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: is the magic, but that's not so much that as 544 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: opposed to like there are it is good to have 545 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: some focused time with your kids and sort of to 546 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: prioritize that time in some ways, but doesn't have to 547 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: be it at dinner. And I think it for a 548 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: lot of families, it's just like that's just not feasible. 549 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: This is not feasible. And I felt like whether things 550 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: were feasible was another interesting theme of your book. And 551 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: I know that they are probably going to be people 552 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: that read it and bring up privilege because a lot 553 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: of the decision points. I mean, let me put it 554 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 1: this way. I read your book and I was like 555 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: kind of struck with thoughts like, Wow, we have two 556 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: really well learning jobs in our household, and I still 557 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: don't feel like I can really have everything I want. 558 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: And I'm not blaming your book. I think your book 559 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: just set me on in my own personal journey like 560 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: thinking about a lot of those things. And I actually 561 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: wrote a blog post about it. I I got like eighty comments, 562 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: so clearly it struck a nerve with others as well. 563 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: So how does that come up in making choices or 564 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: acknowledging that in most families, some of these decisions aren't 565 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: even going to be like a lot of people aren't 566 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: going to be able to choose private school or not, 567 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: or work or not or all kinds of things. I 568 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time in different parts in the 569 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: book talking about you know, for some of these choices, 570 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: you're going to come to them and say like, this 571 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 1: isn't like I can't make this choice. Like, so I 572 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: talk about the idea of sort of should you like 573 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: choosing private school for one of your kids, and acknowledging that, 574 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: like you know, that isn't going to be sometimes that's 575 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: just not a choice because of financial feasibility. And I 576 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 1: think that for there is a real sense in which 577 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: income bused choices, and that is the reality of some 578 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: of this. I do think that the idea of making 579 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: deliberate choices about how your life looks is not actually 580 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: specific to income. I mean, there are constraints that you 581 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: are going to face that are going to differ across 582 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: different families for some reasons because of income, and for 583 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,719 Speaker 1: some other reasons because of other kinds of constraints, like 584 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, your husband is a surgeon who works a 585 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: lot and is not home at particular times of the day. 586 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: And the fact that constraints exist does not get in 587 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: the way of good decision making. And in fact, I 588 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: think that it is a mistake to avoid kind of 589 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: structured decision making, to say, well, I can't be serious 590 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: about decision making because not all of the choices in 591 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: the world are available to me. No, that's actually the 592 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: place where this kind of sort of thinking deliberately about 593 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: stuff is the most valuable, I think, is when you 594 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: face some constraints. So I mean, I see what you're saying, 595 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: and I think it is. I think it is a 596 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: valid criticism. We're concerned, but I also think that there's 597 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: value to this decision making, even if you can't have 598 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: everything that you want. Totally agree. And it wasn't even 599 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: meant as criticism. It was more like it was more like, Wow, 600 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: this made me think a lot about how I would 601 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: love to like idealize every APPA, but then the reality 602 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: is like nobody can idealize every aspect, and maybe that 603 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: is why it is so important to think about what 604 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: you're willing to trade off and what you're not, and 605 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: that does take a lot of work. Do you and 606 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: your family have any kind of like regular rich because 607 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: I'm much I don't think I meant you mentioned any 608 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: like are there quarterly meetings? Like how do you kind 609 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: of regularly check in and make sure you're continuing because 610 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: things do change, they do change. Yeah, So I mean 611 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: I think we the sort of most regular kind of 612 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: check ins we have are with our like with our kids. 613 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: So like when you know, at the beginning of the 614 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: school year, like we kind of sit down together and 615 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: then with the kids and sort of talk about like 616 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: the structure of the like what are the extracurriculars we're doing, 617 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: how are we going to organize that? And then we 618 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: actually have we have like a regular babysitter, and we 619 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: have like a monthly check in with the babysitter, which 620 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: actually serves, at least on a schedule basis to be 621 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: like a good time for the three of us to 622 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: sort of talk about, Okay, like what is the next 623 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: kind of month to six weeks look like in terms 624 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,959 Speaker 1: of our schedule, and like what we're trying to juggle. 625 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: And then I think increasingly my husband and I try 626 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: to when there are sort of things that come up 627 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: with the kids, we were dealing with them like more 628 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: in the moment, partly because they're not coming up as 629 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: often because the kids are bigger, less complicated, less complicated. 630 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: That's a controversial Yeah, no, no, they like some of 631 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: the logistics are more dialed in. Maybe that's that's a 632 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: way to put it. You've gotten into good groove. We 633 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: got into it greats sense. And you did mention something 634 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: about like not having bandwidth to do a lot of 635 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: this thing when your kids are under five, and I 636 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: kind of laughed because like, I see that, I fully 637 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: see that, and yet I have like two bigger kids, 638 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: so I like need to be have that bandwidth, but 639 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: I also still have like a three and a half 640 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: year old running around like knocking everything over. So I 641 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: just thought that was funny because I get that, and 642 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: I'm very much looking forward to when everybody's over five, right, 643 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: so I can really imagine ten. Is that six and 644 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: ten's like, is like pretty good? That's how old yours 645 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: are right now? Six and six. Oh, that's amazing. Well, 646 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: I just really tell everybody how they can subscribe to 647 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: your newsletter and when can get The Family Firm. I 648 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: think this book is just going to be a valuable 649 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: read to many of the audience of this podcast, and 650 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: I highly recommend you guys checking this out. That's awesome, 651 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. So my newsletter is called parent Data. 652 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: It's on substack and so you can find me on subsack. 653 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: And the book is called The Family Firm. It's out 654 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: August third. You can get it at bookstores and on 655 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: the internet, and I hope that you guys like it. 656 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: You can listen to it and we have it on 657 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: audible and I even read it myself, so that was exciting. Oh, 658 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: I could see that being really good read. With your 659 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: own voice. Now. I don't know if you remember from 660 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: the last time you were on this podcast, but we 661 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: always end with the love of the week, So I'll 662 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: give you a couple of seconds. Okay, you mine, and 663 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: it can be anything. It could be like a recent 664 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: walk you took that was great, or a book you read, 665 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: or like anything, a concept whatever. So mine, inspired by 666 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: your book and by your work. My love of the 667 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: week is math because math is underrated. Laura Vanderkam and 668 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: I are both people who did not pursue math fields, 669 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: but I think both were very good at math. We 670 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: appreciate math, and your work makes me appreciate that even more. 671 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: My love of the week is the Ryan's Amusements Arcade 672 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: in Newport. I took my son for like a short 673 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: mom and son trip and we got to go to 674 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: the arcade and fight over who is better at ice zombies, 675 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: and it was a reminder of how much I like 676 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: a little bit of one on one time with the kids. 677 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: And I want to Tiger in the Claw machine because 678 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: I'm really great at LA machines. I am bad at 679 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: Klaw machine. I'm so good. It's like one of my 680 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: few secret talents. Klaw Machine. If my kids heard this, 681 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: they'd be so jealous. They always want to do it 682 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: and they never get anything. So all right, maybe you'll 683 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: have your next book. We'll have to use strategy Claw 684 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: Machine Strategy an entire volume of Clom machineics. Oh my gosh, Well, 685 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on. This was fantastic. 686 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: I hope we can have you a third time after 687 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: your next Yeah, well that would be great when it exists. 688 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. All Right, well 689 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,719 Speaker 1: we were back. That was a great interview with Emily 690 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: auser about the family Firm and COVID and all those 691 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: other topics. So we have a question from a mother 692 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: of a toddler. Do you want me to read this one? Sarah, Sure, 693 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: go for it. I'll paraphrase here. So this woman writes 694 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: that she has a fourteen month old daughter who loves 695 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: her mommy time in the mornings. The problem is that 696 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,719 Speaker 1: she needs to be at work no later than seven 697 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: due to her contracted hours, and because work responsibilities are 698 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: gearing up, it's really important for her to get in 699 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: on time. However, getting to work on time has been 700 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: a struggle because prior to her daughter, she would get 701 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: up early and write, do spiritual reading, and cook a 702 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: nice breakfast before getting dressed for work. Now her mornings 703 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: are spent peeling her crying toddler off her legs while 704 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: she tries to apply eyeliner. She says her husband tries 705 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: to distract her daughter with toys and coco melon and 706 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: all that good stuff, but she keeps running back. It's 707 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: taking her like an hour to get out the door. 708 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: She's tried waking up before she does. But they live 709 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: in a one bedroom apartment in the city, so the 710 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: crib is like two feet from her sleeping face, and 711 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: this is absolutely impossible. They plan to move to a 712 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: bigger space within six months, just just hoping that helps. 713 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, is there anything that can be done? 714 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: Or is this just what toddler life is like? Just 715 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: what toddler life is like? I actually to answer that 716 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 1: that was the quickest Q and A of best both 717 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: world history. I get it. Here's the good news. I'm 718 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: gonna give her some hope. Like this is your phase 719 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: right now? It sounds like it's very different from your 720 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: pre kid life. I can't imagine how early you'd have 721 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: to get up if you have to be there by 722 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: seven and you're doing all this stuff like I'm very 723 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,280 Speaker 1: impressed and I'm a morning person, so that is saying something, 724 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: But it doesn't sound like that's gonna happen right now, 725 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: at least not in your current living situation, and so 726 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: you're gonna have to figure out how to get those 727 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: things in your life, whether it's you and your husband. 728 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe if you knew that on Tuesdays and Thursdays 729 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 1: you were fully off of mourning duty, maybe that would 730 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: kind of help you from a mental standpoint, knowing that 731 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 1: you had some time that was just yours. I also 732 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: think it might be time to think about what could 733 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: go and what needs to stay in that routine. You 734 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: mentioned your hair and your breakfast and stuff like could 735 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: the breakfast be eaten at work? Could you get Japanese 736 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: straightening so you don't have to do your hair? I mean, 737 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: I'm kind of joking, but I mean, honestly, one of 738 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: the reasons I get this labor intensive, expensive process for 739 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: my hair is because it looks reasonably good while doing 740 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: zero to it, so I lose no minutes in the morning. 741 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: And you might want to think about whether a new 742 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 1: hairstyle would help you get to do more of what 743 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: you love to do. But also this phase will change, 744 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: your child will sleep better. It sounds like you're going 745 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: to move to a different living place, depending on if 746 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: you don't have another baby right away, you might have 747 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: some time and the baby is sleeping better and you 748 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 1: can do some of these things. And I can tell 749 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: you now that you know, even just a couple of 750 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: years out from that, I have to drag my kids 751 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: out of bed for camp after seven in the morning 752 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: every day, and I do get to do what I 753 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: want to do in the morning. I can even run 754 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: when it's light out in the summer. It's amazing. So 755 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: you will get there. That is very true. I would 756 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: say that, Yeah, transitioning to parenthood is rough. Reading this 757 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: letter just reminded me of that so much, because this 758 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: person is only a year or so removed from having 759 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: total control over her time and now she does not, 760 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: and especially if she has been consuming productivity literature about 761 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: lengthy morning routines and such and viewing this is what 762 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: productive people do and not realizing that this is what 763 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: people without toddlers do. But anyway, yes, moving to a 764 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: bigger place will help. That's one reason we left our 765 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,359 Speaker 1: one bedroom apartment when Jasper was about fourteen months old. 766 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: Is because every single morning my husband would walk past 767 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:42,919 Speaker 1: his crib on the way out the door and wake 768 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: him up, and then I had to deal with it. 769 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: I was just going crazy. So a second bedroom will 770 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: be wonderful because then you know you can get up 771 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: and even if you can hear your daughter, she's like 772 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: not on you, right, Like if she could be in 773 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: her crib, you could just be applying your eyeline or 774 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: in your bathroom. She's safe in her crib. She can't 775 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: get out. You can do your stuff and walk out 776 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: the door, right, And it sounds like your husband is 777 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: already up. I mean, if he's trying to distract her 778 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: with cocoa melon, then he's up and doing stuff. So 779 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: maybe you guys have already decided that because you have 780 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: to work so early, he is the morning parent and 781 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: you are the evening parent. And that's great, Like that's 782 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: a wonderful split. If that is the case, maybe until 783 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: you get to this bigger apartment, he could start taking 784 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 1: her out on stroller walks in the morning, Like if 785 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: you all get up at six, he just puts on pants, 786 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: puts her in the stroller, walks out the door, you 787 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: get ready, go to the subway, and then he comes 788 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: back five minutes after you leave, and you know you've 789 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: made a quick exit, so you don't have to deal 790 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: with that. And I understand that, Yes, obviously your daughter 791 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: wants to see you in the morning, but if she 792 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: can't see you because she's out the stroller, then there 793 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: won't be as much of an issue. And presumably you 794 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: are the one spending time with her later. If this 795 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: is the arrangement you and your husband have worked out 796 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,720 Speaker 1: in terms of how you split it, so you're probably 797 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: getting your time with her. It's just not going to 798 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: be in the morning because of how early you have 799 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: to be at work. So hopefully that'll work. Just go 800 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,919 Speaker 1: do the stroller walks in the morning. Maybe they can 801 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: start go look at feeding the birds in the park 802 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 1: or something for thirty minutes every morning, and then by 803 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: the time it's cold because you're writing to this, in 804 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 1: the summer, you guys will be in the bigger apartment. 805 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: It won't matter anymore. All right, Well, this has been 806 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: best of both worlds. Sarah has been interviewing Emily Oster 807 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: about how we make decisions with parenting our children in 808 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: the elementary years. We will be back next week with 809 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. 810 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com 811 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can 812 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has 813 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us 814 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: next time for more on making work and life work together.