WEBVTT - I Know This Much Is True (Part 1) 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:06.960 Hey, this is Danish Schwartz and this is Popcorn book 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:09.920 Club from my Heart Radio. This week we're jumping into 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:14.080 a story of sadness and tragedy and mental illness, you know, 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.040 just some light summer reading. It's I know this much 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.759 is true from Wally Lamb, which was an Oprah's Book 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:22.759 Club pick and is now an HBO series starring to 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:27.320 Mark Ruffalo's or Ruffalo as a pair of identical twins 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:31.320 double Ruffalo. Before we go into the rest of the book, 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.120 can we just all say our favorite Ruffalo's. My Ruffalo 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:39.199 of preference is from Eternal Sunshine of the Spot the 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:45.080 Glasses Ruffalo. Yes, yeah, it's a solid Ruffalo. Welcome to 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.000 Popcorn book Club. I am your host, Danish Swartz, and 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:50.840 I am joined as always by co host Karama Nqua, 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:55.080 Tian Trans, Jennifer Wright, and Melissa Hunter. How are you 0:00:55.120 --> 0:01:00.040 guys doing, Karama? How you doing? Medium? I thought the 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.720 the book is very sad and the world is very sad. 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:08.640 But I actually got a new bookmark that helps sunflowers 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:12.479 on it, you guys, and your dress is also sunflowered, 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:17.280 which I really yes, I was very sunflowering, very mad 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.080 for me and mailed it to me, Tianne, Tianne, how's 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:24.160 your life in quarantine at the moment? Pretty good? Um, 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.160 it's nice to escape to a sad book from a 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:31.840 sad world. So that's been really fun. Um. I also 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:36.720 got a new bookmarks not as cool as yours, and 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:40.120 by god, I mean rifled in my desk forward But 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:47.600 it's star stickers. That's like a star that is a 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:54.120 very like mini economizing and who things tiny, Jennifer. You're 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:56.800 zooming in from South Carolina. But it looks like you're 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:59.840 against like a tropical background. Is it as? Are you 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.720 like basking in sunlight? What is the weather there? Because 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.040 it looks like it's like eight and perfect. It's eighty 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:09.600 six degrees here, so it's a little bit too hot. Um, 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:14.440 but yeah, it's also it's a sad week. I feel 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:19.000 a little bad that I recommended a really sad not 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.800 not anticipating how sad the world was going to get. 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:25.920 I know what, I actually sometimes think that sadness in 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:30.639 a fictional universe can be weirdly cathartic. Sometimes it's like, 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.080 if I'm feeling sad, I want to listen to sad songs, 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:35.480 and I don't you know what I mean, Like I 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.920 think it would be maybe I'm I'm just justifying. But 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:40.880 like if I was reading like a very happy book 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.160 about like people going about their happy lives, I would 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:50.160 be like, what's your problem, Melissa? How about you? How 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.680 are you doing? Yeah? You know, you know, a solid 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:58.360 relatively fine. I feel like it is the way I 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.280 describe how I am every day, Like relative to the 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:05.799 rest of the world, I'm very fine. Um, but yeah, 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.800 everything's on fire and everything in this book makes me 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:11.840 I think that we don't need to get into the 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:15.399 book yet. But the first chapter I like read right 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:19.920 before bed and I was like, Nope, can't do that again. 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:25.679 That was a hard path of a before so uh yeah, 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.519 But otherwise it's okay. Getting outside. Got outside a lot 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.640 this week, which was really nice, but stayed away from 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:37.240 people who were being very irresponsible. It almost like I 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.400 feel like some of the irresponsible people ruin the nature 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:47.160 that I'm trying to absorb to make me happy. You know. Said, um, 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.520 well that that is a very good segue into what 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.560 we're reading this week. Uh, Wally Lambs, I know this 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:56.839 much is true, which was sort of like a hit 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:59.040 at the time, you know, New number one New York 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:02.840 Times bestseller Oprah book Club and now is being adapted 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:10.480 on HBO with double ruffalo a double ruff too rough, 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:18.360 too low. That's actually that one. When we're reading, we 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.359 read chapters one through fifteen, So if you're following along 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.159 at home, that's where we cut off. And obviously there's 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.400 gonna be no spoilers past that point because I haven't 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:30.040 read past that. So if any of you have, please 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:34.560 don't spoil anything I have not. My mom. My mom 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:36.719 was like, you should because everyone else is going to 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.679 And I think that explains a lot about my life. 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.440 I almost did. I started reading chapter sixteen, and then 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:46.400 I realized I would get I would have gotten too 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:50.120 confused when I'm because it jumps so much in time 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:53.320 that I'm like, oh, I don't know if this bad 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.159 thing happened, or this bad thing happened. You know, Well, 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:00.320 thank you, Melissa. Now I owe my mother money. That 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.320 is exactly it, though, where it's like this book um 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.279 isn't linear in its plot. Really there is one one 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.440 quote unquote present day that carries us through, but we're 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.880 jumping back in time, uh to to find out about 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:19.279 the story and the childhood of our protagonist Dominic Birdseye, 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.920 and his twin identical twin brother Thomas Birdseye, who is 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:29.080 a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and um. At the start of 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:34.240 the book, Uh uh, Melissa, you want to you want 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:37.640 to dive dive into what the major inciting and y 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:43.279 sorry not what gave me a very vivid night nightmares 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.360 that night, that thing that happened. Yeah, that's why I'm 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:50.279 putting it on the spot. Yeah. So, um, Thomas Birdseye, Uh, 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:56.320 Dominic's brother is in a goes to a library and 0:05:56.520 --> 0:06:01.920 he um it takes out a sword that he got 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:07.200 from his uh stepfather and or he stole from his stepfather, 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:14.160 and um chops off his own hand and like suitures 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.240 it immediately like finds a way to stoppably, but he 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:21.840 does it in protest of the what the Gulf football 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:27.000 for for um and he does it. He's he's sacrificing 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:31.560 his own hand, which is based on scripture like a um, 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:36.320 something that he's uh sort of decided is telling him 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.640 through scripture and through God that he must do um 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.279 and yeah, and terrifies a lot of people in the 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:49.080 library understandably and terrifies a lot of readers. Yes, yeah, 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.080 I think I would be very afraid if I were 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:55.480 in a public put their own hand off and then 0:06:55.520 --> 0:07:01.240 immediately with the mae he like he like throws it 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.800 out into the middle of the library, like yeah, and 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:08.320 you saw a hand just dropped to the ground. Yeah, 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:12.400 you'd run the funk out of there. But you know what, 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:15.720 if this book had taken place a little bit before, 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.320 when normal people took place, people would have thought they 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:24.240 were being punked. People would have been like ash, but yeah, no, 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.119 that is it's a it's a visceral, terrifying scene that 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.720 is written about in such detail like that he like 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.520 tied the the arteries to staunch the bleeding. And someone 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:36.360 in the we have the we have a group chat. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.920 But someone said, and I don't remember, so I'm very sorry, 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.600 um so that they for a moment like thought it 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.400 was a memoir because it is written. Oh that's me, 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:49.640 that's me. I'm an idiot who have not holly believed 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:54.280 that this was a memoir. I was like, interesting, but 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:56.480 it would be interesting for book club. Is I could 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.120 look up some of the newspaper reports on the time 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.600 covering this, because obviously they would cover the man who 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:04.560 chopped off his hand to try to stop the Gulf four. 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.320 And I was so confused by the fact that I 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:14.880 couldn't find any reporting from that time. No, I mean 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.120 the CIA was probably behind it, like I've learned from 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.480 Thomas now that they were covering it up. Um and 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:24.960 uh No, Wally Lamb is I was very relieved to 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:28.400 find out um an author of fiction, of which apparently 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.560 did not register in my brain. And um he has 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:36.320 a bunch of sisters and uh teaches incarcerated women how 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.280 to write their life stories in a very inspiring way 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:44.760 and has a really happy three loving children. Well, Wally 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:50.600 is life. And I also, yeah, I also do really 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.000 like I do want to say, like, when you write 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.080 about mental health, especially in fiction, it's so often like sensationalized. 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.200 And yes, cutting off your own hand is like a 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:01.880 it's a it is sort of like if it bleeds, 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.720 it leads, like sort of that it fits into that 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.280 mode of like, oh, exploitative storytelling where it's like, oh, 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:10.959 it's dramatic and attention grabbing. But I did appreciate that. 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:14.320 While Lamb the author did have like a disclaimer at 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.400 the beginning talking about his process and his research, he 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.160 has a list of like a bibliography at the end 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.480 of the book of his sources that he consulted. And 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:27.360 also I think statistically he represents the fact that most 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:31.160 mentally ill people are a threat to themselves far more 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.680 than they're a threat to other people. Yeah, I think 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:38.040 it's a nuance that that isn't often portrayed in fiction. Well, 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:42.880 you know what's interesting. Even though, even though I know 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.000 that this has now been adapted into an HBO limited series, 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:48.840 and I know that Mark Ruffalo plays the Birdsey twins 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:52.560 in the HBO limited series, I have not been picturing 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:59.400 Mark Ruffalo and the usually I have been picturing Mark Ruffalo. 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.839 So I wanted what everyone else I've been picturing a 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:06.560 Ruffalo type. For sure, I feel like and this is not. 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:08.920 I feel like Mark Ruffalo always plays like a little 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.880 more likable, a little more like morally good, like picturing 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:17.000 a spotlight character that I have trouble picturing a Ruffalo 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:20.440 this sort of low down like that on the ruff 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.440 and Tumble. I think I'm picturing from thirteen going on thirty, 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:30.000 and not the Ruffalo that is in the trailer and 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:34.400 the show. Like I'm picturing like a younger Ruffalo before 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:36.880 we go into the rest of the book. Can we 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.840 just all say our favorite Ruffalo's. My Ruffalo of preference 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:47.720 is from Eternal Sunshine of the spot the Glasses. Yes, yeah, 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.679 it's a solid I'm gonna say aesthetically, I like Eternal 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:52.920 Sunson out of Spotless Mine because I'm a sucker for glasses. 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.120 But in terms of personality, I'm all Spotlight Ruffalo. I 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:59.880 love people. If it goes up to the Pope, I 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.800 like him little. You know, for some reason, the kids 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:07.880 are all right, Ruffalo really popped into my head, like 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.280 it's a really like I mean, maybe it's just like 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:14.080 a stasis Ruffalo. You know, it's like nothing too. He's 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.080 not too sexy, but he's also not too He's just 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.720 like a good guy that's around. I think I don't 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:28.360 really remember the movie Hot Ruffalo. Yeah, what about um well, 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:30.920 you know, I'm gonna say Spotlight Ruffalo. And I usually 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.280 thought Mark Ruffalo was kind of perfect for this because 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.080 I think maybe because of his political involvement, I think 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.720 of Mark Ruffalo as being a very righteous person, and 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.439 because of the Hulk, I think of human as also 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.160 being a person who maybe secretly is angry all the time. 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:50.599 So yeah, Dominic is clearly not secretly angry. Dominic is 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:57.280 very angry and angry. Yeah, so angry. Mind. I mean, 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.480 I go to thirteen going on thirty Mark Ruffalo just 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.920 because the one that pops in my and I love 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:09.040 a simple romcom Yeah, yeah, which is not absolutely not 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.760 so taking no so to continue on um in the 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:17.960 non very much not a rom com story. The major 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.679 conflict that I think that Dominic is dealing with in 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:24.360 the first fifteen chapters is obviously, his brother does this 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:29.880 enormously public act of self mutilation. He's brought to the hospital, 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:34.800 but then to a mental institution that's more. I don't know, 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.080 how do you describe it as a maximum security maximum 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:43.040 maximum security security, a more severe place than his usual 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:48.800 like group outpatient sort of centric facility. And I think 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:53.839 one of the big things also is that the hatch, Yeah, 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.120 the hatch and the new facility versus settled the old 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:02.240 facility has more surveillance, which for a paranoid schizophrenic is 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:07.200 just like possibly the worst possible thing that you could do. Yeah, 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:11.559 I mean you have I understand, I understand why, yeah, right, 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.880 And he's very comfortable at subtle and like what he 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:17.600 like works the coffee or he gets the coffee and 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.080 works the news stand, and it's like his home, and 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:26.319 so that's very stressful. He's very settled, oh yeah, and 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:30.200 Dominic really tries to fight to get him back to Settle, 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:33.160 where his brother seemed to be doing better until he 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:37.199 cut his hand off. But for political reasons, because it's 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:41.680 such a high profile case, the powers that be kind 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:43.640 of need to throw the book at it a little bit, 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:45.960 like we were saying before, like it was this really 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.120 terrifying scene where a man threw his severed hand across 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.400 a library, and just for public appearances, you need to 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:56.240 be like, well, we're putting him in maximum security getting evaluated, 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.400 and it makes the system feel very futile and scary. 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:01.720 As it was, it was really interesting in that one 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:03.920 chapter where he does meet with that social worker and 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.840 she essentially tells him that that like this sort of 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:12.640 move is like a pr move from from from the cops. 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.760 That like, because there there was an incident where someone 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.880 who had no history of violence snapped, as they said, 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:22.800 and attacked someone and killed someone. So like they're doing 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:27.840 this to Thomas as a show of you know, conservative action. 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:32.320 Mm hmmm. What I was gonna say is I think 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.080 that it's really interesting. The dominant keeps bringing up like 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.720 people keep saying that he's violent, but he only hurt 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.640 himself and he's not a danger to anyone else. He's 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.280 just he's his own worst enemy and he's only dangerous 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:49.880 to himself. But I think what's important and um, what 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.680 made me feel for some of the workers there was 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:56.280 the fact that she immediately replies, well, he counts if 0:14:56.360 --> 0:15:03.280 you're violent to yourself, that's violence to yourself or up matter. Yeah, yeah, 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.400 I think that it's it's interesting. I didn't want to 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.320 dive into this so soon, but but I feel like 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:11.760 the natural progression is Dominic is a narrator, is not 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:17.920 a fundamentally great person across the board's incredibly sexist and homophobic, 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:24.320 and his attitude and yeah, rasis homophobic. I mean, there's 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.080 some like nineties language in here where you're like, Okay, 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:30.640 I guess people said that, But Jesus Christ, it is 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:34.720 not just the nine because I remember a good chunk 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.240 of the nineties and I'm like, oh, there is a 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:42.160 balance between like nineties language and then things that we're 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.200 just playing racist even in the nineties, like the homophobia 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.320 to me, feels a little more nineties. It does, but 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:53.160 it doesn't because his girlfriend Joy also calls him. Yeah, 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:58.040 she says she's homophobic. Yeah, and she's. But I do 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:01.400 think it was more mainstream for men to be called 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:05.880 homophobic and it be okay that they were homophobic. It's like, oh, sure, 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.080 that guy, he's he's he's just a homophobe. Like it 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:14.840 was like you, oh you you you know, silly, silly dominant. Yeah. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:20.360 I feel like when you hear about Joy's gay friend Ted, 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.800 who makes duchess potatoes and lives in like a beautiful 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.480 condo and plans to become a caterer, I just wanted 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.520 to disappear to the just maybe the book could like 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:37.040 swerve over port of Yeah, and they take mixology classes together. 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.720 I'm so into it. What fun thing to do. I 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.000 would have been okay if we just swerved for like 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:47.120 a romantic comedy for Ted helps Joy find love and 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:51.440 you know, Tad is like you you leave him, honey, 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:53.720 leave him? You know, just like it's like every day, 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.800 like when are you leaving him? Is it next week? 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.120 We gotta have a plan. She is a hot twenty 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:08.080 three year old fitness instructor who carries Yeah. As I'm 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.440 reading that the whole time, I'm like, joy, why are 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:16.719 you with him? Well, I feel like because she has 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:21.000 low self esteem and she has problems because of the 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:28.119 fact that she was sexually abused when she was completely 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:32.880 dismisses and he's like, well, it was consensual, but as 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.919 you call it statutory statutory where it's like no, no, no, 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:42.879 and uncle and year old girl is in universe consensual. 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:52.840 But but she wrote him letters, so obviously his fingernails 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:58.520 love oh god um, and it's more disturbed by her 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.760 like her action and like her eating the fingernails and 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.200 like the like never condemns the uncle's actions at all 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.879 in telling us this entire So it's really well. But 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.200 what I wanted to point out is that even though 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:17.840 our narrator Dominic is sexist, racist, homophobic, I do really 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.800 value kind of that Wally Lamb is building this world 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.160 around him where it's like, oh, well, I don't think 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.400 while Wally Lamb is not those things, like, we're even 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.359 though we're through Dominic's perspective, I think we're getting like 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.520 really interesting women and people of color and the stories 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:38.000 that Dominic can't see. But we as the reader can see, 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:42.240 like the story of the drink Waters and dr character 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:48.160 in the whole book Waters who are That almost took 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.159 me out though, Like, just given everything that's happening in 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:55.919 the world, fact that the fact that Dominic went and 0:18:56.000 --> 0:19:00.200 accused a little black girl but you know she all 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.840 intents and purposes reads is black. Um, he's a little 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.439 black girl. A theft made her cry in front of 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:09.040 the principle no one believed her. Everyone who was a 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.439 hero in his in not in his defense, but just 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.960 to say, the reason they believed him and not her 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.399 was partly because she did have a record for stealing food. 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.520 She was great to find out because she was hungry, 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:25.399 which nobody addresses. So he makes her cry. And then 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.680 the next day she gets kidnapped and murder and then 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.399 and then and then he writes a speech and gets 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:37.000 chosen to read it out loud at the memorial service 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.400 at the school. It is just such a sick, sick, 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:42.760 little twisted thing that he doesn't does in that chapter. 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.200 I had to put the sorry, yeah, yeah. The thing 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:51.479 afterwards where he sees Ralph get upset in class because 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.040 the teacher has said that they just got rid of 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:58.119 all the Indians. They're all gone. He disappeared, and Ralph 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:04.080 is part Indian. Yeah, they disappeared. Um, And then he realizes, like, huh, 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.760 maybe racism is kind of um, and it just feels 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:12.760 like such a evil, inadequate response to everything he's done. 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:15.560 I found it the most chill with that exact fam 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.680 Like one of the most chilling moments of Dominic recounting 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:22.000 the Penny is I think her name is Penny and 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:26.879 the sister who gets murdered is that He's like, I 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.800 told the teacher that she was bragging about sealing oreos, 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:33.800 and I knew that they would believe me. Yeah, that 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:37.120 is exactly the sort of like systemic racism that still exists, 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:40.359 where like that I mean not to bring up current events, 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.520 but that woman calling the police and knowing how she 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.879 can twist a story to her benefit. It's like and 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.359 Dominic knew that they would believe and beyond that, he 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.000 was he was like getting angry that like he's like, 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:55.639 they better believe me, Like he was like, I better 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:59.360 win this, even though he he was like getting indignant 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.040 that she was by writing for her truth, which was 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:07.800 the truth. He Yeah, he forgot, he forgot that part Yeah, 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:09.679 we forgot that the whole thing was something that he 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:14.280 invented because and the whole reason he did it was 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:16.399 because she lied about saying that her mom was going 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:18.840 to get her a Shetland pony for her birthday. It's like, 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.240 let her lie. We all lied when we were in 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:25.280 third grade. My best friend in elementary school said that 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.639 her house used to belong to giants and they had 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.120 to renovate it to make it person sized. That's an awesome, 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:38.560 very good, very good lie. My little niece is a 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.720 huge liar, just constant lies flying out of her mouth. 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:48.239 Kids love. It's just fun. Yeah. I told kids in 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:52.960 kindergarten that I was the author of Pnicula. It could 0:21:53.000 --> 0:22:00.320 have been Jennifer, thank you. Yeah, I could talk fully 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.480 reading that, so it would have been like an incredible achievement. 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:17.200 But that's so funny. You're listening to Popcorn Book Club 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.480 for My Heart Radio, and we'll be back right after 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:30.600 the break. So we're back with Popcorn Book Club for 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:34.199 My Heart Radio. So we sort of do get this 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:38.040 main narrative about Dominic and Thomas and the challenges of 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:42.160 you know, having an identical twin who's sort of having 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:47.879 this descent into into further paranoid schizophrenia peppered in with 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:50.639 these anecdotes, and I want to focus on a different 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:52.879 anecdote that broke my heart. I would say like the 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:55.640 second saddest I've been in this book, although it's hard 0:22:55.680 --> 0:23:00.760 to say to the New York City trap. Thought about that, 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:04.960 the field trip, the field trip. So what happens in 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:08.240 this one, just to refresh your memory, is the the 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:12.359 boys school, UH is going on a field trip to 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:14.840 New York City to like see a show at Radio 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:17.119 City Music Hall and see the Statue of Liberty from 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:19.800 Connecticut where they live, and we sort of see that 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:22.440 this is where Dominic was trying to distance himself from 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:26.120 which I think all kids, if you have like a 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:29.040 lame brother or lame sibling, like you sort of do 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:31.960 that at some point. And so he sort of is 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:34.920 trying to align himself with the cool kid, and he's 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:38.120 not sitting with Thomas on the bus, and then Thomas 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:42.720 accidentally locks himself in the bathroom on the bus, and 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:47.480 just the way it's described is so vivid and so humiliating, 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:50.800 both for Thomas and also I really did feel for 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:54.000 Dominic in this awful way where you know that like 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:56.639 he's not being a good person, but also who among 0:23:56.800 --> 0:24:00.399 us has it been like humiliated like that? And I 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:04.240 can just like like that feeling of just thinking about 0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:07.199 being in Thomas's shoes and like having everyone on the 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:12.080 bus shout at you, like the kids, the students, the driver, 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:15.120 the teacher, and it was like everyone telling you how 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:17.919 to fix something that you just can't and in the 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:21.000 moment of the anxiety, you can't figure it out. Yeah, 0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:23.520 and you're in this small little room that smells like 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:27.160 literal shit and you and it's just like I feel 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:30.399 like I've been that kid several times where just like 0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:32.399 you don't and it's just like a simple thing that 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:34.919 if you just it's like the left right, it was 0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:37.200 like tell him to make it go right, and then 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:41.159 it was just she just mixed those up and it 0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:44.960 was just so devastating. It's so awful and precisely the 0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:50.040 way that children actually I think, um, I think as adults. Um, 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:52.920 I see like kids in third grade now and I think, oh, 0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:55.920 they're adorable. Look what are they reading. It's so cute. 0:24:56.080 --> 0:24:58.119 And then you remember that when you were that age, 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:02.840 they were life size and they were yeah that um, yeah, 0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:05.600 they have no patience with anyhing. Um, they can say 0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:10.200 vividly cruel things without anyone calling them out or any 0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:14.240 personal feelings of guilt. And that's everything that's happened to 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:17.080 tell us. And also they stuck out. What stuck out 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:19.199 for me in that scene, there were two things up. 0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:22.840 First is actually there were three things. First is that 0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:27.680 Dominic was um ultimately concerned with whether or not this cool, 0:25:27.800 --> 0:25:31.359 rich kid would still be his friend afterwards. And I 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:35.399 think that being accepted in that way was something that 0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:37.560 was very important to him, and he could see it 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:42.240 literally just slipping away as his brother became this embarrassment. 0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:44.520 And I think that that's part of the tough thing 0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:48.960 about him looking exactly like his brother and either like 0:25:49.359 --> 0:25:52.159