WEBVTT - The Winklevoss Twins Discuss Gemini and Facebook 0:00:02.200 --> 0:00:06.800 This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Boomberg Radio. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.520 This week on the podcast, I have an extra special 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:17.360 set of guests. Cameron and Tyler Winklevoss are the twins 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.920 who have been behind some of the most fascinating developments 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:26.920 in technology, cryptocurrency, venture capital. UH. You might be familiar 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.159 with them from the way they were depicted in the 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:33.440 Social network. They were the folks who had the original 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:40.320 idea behind Harvard Connection, which later became a predecessor company 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:45.520 that theoretically Mark Zuckerberg lifted some of the ideas from 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:49.519 and used to launch UH Facebook. We talked about that, 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:55.880 We discuss the variety of different opportunities that exist in cryptocurrency, 0:00:55.920 --> 0:01:01.080 in bitcoin, in Gemini, which is the exchange your vault 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.200 in exchange they set up. We talked about other venture 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:08.840 capital work they do. It's really a fascinating conversation that's 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:12.839 wide ranging and covers a ton of different stuff. If 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:17.160 you are at all remotely interested in anything from vcs 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:21.520 to start up to crypto, you will find this conversation fascinating. So, 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:30.160 with no further ado, my conversation with the Winkelvy. My 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:35.280 special guest this week are Cameron and Tyler Winklevos, better 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:37.839 known as winkle Vye. Is that plural? Do you guys 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:39.679 like that? Or is that just a tired joke you're 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:44.759 sick of? Okay with it? So in case you are 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.760 wholly unfamiliar with who they are, They most famously worked 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:54.400 on the predecessor at Harvard UH to Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg, 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.840 who they subsequently sued for stealing their intellectual property. That 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:01.960 case was settled for tens of millions of dollars. They 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:05.680 now run winkle Voss Capital, a VC firm, and have 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:11.639 been aggressive investors in crypto, blockchain, bitcoin, etcetera. They also 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:18.720 founded Gemini, a cryptocurrency exchange. Cameron and Tyler winkle Voss, 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.880 Welcome to Bloomberg. Thanks for having us than you, And 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:23.880 by the way, you guys have to just feel free 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:25.799 to jump in. I don't know which one of you 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:28.600 to look at. You are my first set of twins 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:33.040 as interviewees. So it's a little confusing, but but quite 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:35.360 intriguing and I think we'll have a little fun with it. 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:39.000 So I have to start with the obvious question. You 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:43.960 guys must be recognized wherever you go. Is that a headache? 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.680 Is it a hindrance? Does it help? How do you 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.760 how do you deal with your fame from from the 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:55.960 whole Facebook debacle? So, you know, we're not recognized, So 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.440 we've we've always been recognized, well in the sense that like, oh, 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.880 there's two of you, So there's always been this thing like, wait, 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.720 are you guys twins? Way before any of all that, 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:08.520 does anyone really ask you if you're twins? I mean, 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:12.160 you guys kind of look like identical twins more than 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.600 you think, And a lot of times they ask if 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:20.480 we're identical or like brothers, Um, well brothers, really, I'm 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.400 not sure if you guys are related. That's just shocking 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.960 that anyon would say that. But the it kind of 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.120 depends where we are. We can at least it feels 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.000 like we can kind of blend in a little bit, 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:35.160 but it's it's definitely harder being six four, six, five 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:41.680 six or five twins. That's almost harder to disguise than like, oh, 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.080 those are the guys from the social network. So it 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.160 kind of depends where we are. If we're at like 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.840 a business school event or something, um, you know where 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.960 people sort of read trade magazines, or a cryptocurrency event, um, 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.920 but if we're just kind of walking down the street, 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.760 it doesn't feel like a lot of people necessarily recognize us. 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.440 But maybe we just don't see it. And and Manhattan 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:04.480 is pretty chill about that for the most part. Is 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:06.480 for the most part. I mean, we've definitely been asked 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:10.240 to take selfies just because we're twins. Yeah, the person 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.640 had like no idea who we were and probably figured 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.360 it out after the fact or whatever. Um so the 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:17.640 twin thing gets a lot of eyes for sure, especially 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:21.480 because we're you know, not you know, we're older twins. 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.960 Usually you know, twins sort of separate, live in different cities. 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.760 We kind of work together where we have similar routines. 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.760 So we might be like walking together down the street 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:33.160 and people sort of turn around and say, oh, those 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:37.640 are two guys that are tall, that look people appreciate 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.560 the fact that we still get along and we're like 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.160 in our later thirties. I think they expect to sort 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.960 of see twins, you know, ten year old twins like 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.599 hanging out with lollipops and all right, So let's let's 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:52.440 move forward from I'm sure you're tired of that question. 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.960 You must get all the time. So undergraduate Harvard Business 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.880 School at Oxford. Was the plan always to go into finance, 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.240 to be entrepreneurs? What was what was the thinking when 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:07.640 you were mapping out your academic and professional careers. I 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:10.400 think the idea was I think we thought we would 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.440 always be entrepreneurs because our dad is an entrepreneur and 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.599 he has a technology company and has been building software 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.080 for thirty years. UM. He was a professor of actual 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:24.320 science back at Wharton. And then when Offen became an entrepreneur. 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.719 So we we grew up UM in a startup tech 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.000 office environment, and we always wanted to sort of be 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:36.559 like that. UM, and then we discovered the sport of rowing, 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.080 and one thing led to the next, and said, oh, 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:42.240 maybe I can be good at this in high school, 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.359 and then got pretty good, made junior national team, and 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.120 said maybe we can row in college. And I don't 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:52.120 see what happened how you ended up on the Tarles River. 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.080 Was it from high school rowing? Yeah? I mean that 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.240 was Harvard was Harry Parker was this legendary coach. He 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.600 coached for over fifty season and by the time we 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:03.599 were applying to college, he was a guy that you 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.920 would aspire as a as a high school rower to 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.680 to row for and then we got to college and said, hey, 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.040 maybe we can make the varsity and then we did that. 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:17.120 We're undefeated national champions in two thousand three, two thousand four, UM, 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:19.440 and then we said, hey, maybe we should try our 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:21.960 luck at the national team and try the Olympic level. 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.280 So it was one of these things that just I 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:26.839 kind of call our our sports career a bit of 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.520 a detour because we didn't grow up in this jock household. 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.680 My parents played sports, but you know, the house and 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.200 revolve around that. It actually really revolved around entrepreneurship in 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.640 business ideas. So rowings sort of started off as this 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.680 thing that became a fifteen year detour, but I think 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.159 we always knew we'd get back into startups. So so 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:49.880 let's talk about startups. You guys run Winklevoss Capital. What 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.279 sort of companies do you invest in? What are you 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.520 looking for? Uh? In a startup? So we invest in 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:00.760 early stage startups with the technology focused really, but we're 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:05.800 somewhat agnostic. UM, We've definitely invested in consumer brands and 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.559 and things that we like. UM. It's a private investment firms, 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.440 so we kind of make the decisions and call the shots. 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:16.200 We don't have outside money UM yet. UM. We could 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.920 potentially raise it some later point, but currently it's private. Yeah, 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.000 and I think that there's just a big focus on 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:27.320 UH software technology, although as Cameron said, we've definitely done 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:32.720 CpG type stuff. UM. So it is it is really 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.200 up to us that that is the fun about it, 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.880 and that has actually been one of the greatest advantages 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:42.320 is the agility and the nimbleness because when we saw 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:46.800 bitcoin originally, UM, we could invest in it because we 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.680 called the shots versus a lot of vcs they can 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.560 only invest in C corps. So they had structural problems 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:57.760 with their UM you know, private offering documents where even 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:00.160 if they wanted to invest in bitcoin they could, they 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.840 had to invest in companies and the partners a lot 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.360 of them UH saw the opportunity and personally invested in bitcoin, 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.880 but could invest their funding. It interesting. So sticking with 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.160 portfolio companies, you had a firm you invested in Love 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:16.000 Begins with l was just acquired by Procter and Gamble 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.920 are crunch Base says you've already had thirteen exits. Is 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:26.360 that more or less accurate? Lucky number thirteen? So thirteen though, 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.440 but where's the denominator in crunch base thirteen out of 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.559 how many companies have you guys actually been that successful 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.560 with already? I think we've invested in over seventy at 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.160 this point. UM, So that's a good percentage to have 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:43.160 about with an exit already. I think at this life cycle, UM, 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:47.240 it's still pretty early. Like we started investing UM about 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.760 five years ago, and UM, I think most venture capital 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:55.240 funds have about a ten year lifespan. So you could 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:59.000 argue we're about halfway through, and there's there's a number 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.880 of great stories that are playing out as we speak, 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.080 and then there's there's some that you thought were going 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.360 to play out a little bit longer and get snatched 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.360 up UM pretty quickly. I think one a good example 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:14.480 as this company Chariot, which is building basically ride sharing 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:17.280 and it was taking more of a group model, and 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.480 so they got these big vans from Ford and had 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:24.040 these roots and an app and UM there you know, 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:26.880 their equipment supplier was Ford, and Ford eventually was like, oh, 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.040 let's you know, we should just acquire these guys because 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.200 we're not gonna go build and you know, experiment this way. UM. 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:36.200 So that exit I think happened maybe a year after 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:38.840 our money was wired um, and it was a great 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.240 return we probably you know, I thought it might have 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.800 played out over a couple more cities another year or two, 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.439 but um, it was. It was a great outcome for us. 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.240 And we're seeing a lot of that were um. You know, 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:54.600 we we invest in brands, they start getting traction and 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:58.000 then a large UM consumer company comes and just basically 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.840 acquires it because they've got all the distribution, but they 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.440 don't have that innovative thing going on. So I want 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:06.520 to come back to bitcoin in a little bit because 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:08.080 there's a ton of stuff to go up with you. 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.360 But I have to ask you something about the Winkle 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:15.520 Voice Capital website. You have on that home page a 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:19.080 fascinating painting that I've been in trance with by Jack 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.480 Crossing on Sixth Avenue. What motivated you to put that 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:26.559 on on your home page? Are you on sixth Avenue 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.400 or what? What was about? And if you've never seen 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:34.440 the picture the painting, it's an astronaut and full full 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:40.040 um space suit on fire Crossing sixth Avenue. Yeah, I 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.160 think I think we really like the image because a 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:45.280 we're New York based, UM, so it really spoke to 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.560 us in that fashion. B it's an astronaut and a 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:52.280 lot of these companies, including you know bitcoin and cryptos 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:57.320 pushing that frontier right going into space moonshots exactly, and 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.120 then the flames you know represent I think, uh, the 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:04.120 risk inherent with with these entrepreneurs and what they're trying 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.400 to do and and um, you know people often you 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.040 know they dare to like think big, but you also 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:12.160 have to dare to know that, like you know, you 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.800 could fail in a big way. Um. It just may 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.120 not work. You might put years of your life on 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:21.560 the line for no guarantee, no return. Um. And that's 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:23.760 just important, you know, being able to take that risk 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.480 and being comfortable with it and if you fall, getting 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.520 right back up and going at it again. What what's 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:31.840 the Jeff Bezos quote If you're not failing, you're not 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:36.640 taking enough risk or something to that effect. That sounds right. Um. 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:38.960 You know, we had a rowing coach in high school 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:40.600 that said, if you meet all of your goals, you're 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.920 not setting them high enough. So there's probably a lot 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.000 of ways to skin that saying. But I think Cameron 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.240 makes a really good point, Um, being comfortable with the 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:55.240 concept of huge failure. UM is really the essence I 0:11:55.280 --> 0:12:00.400 think of of entrepreneurship and risk taking. UM. I think 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:05.360 that that astronaut picture really embodies that and and sort 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.920 of the the essence of what it means to be 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.559 an entrepreneur. And and yeah, it's not for everyone, and 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:16.160 it's uh, it's certainly not an everyday thing. And those 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.719 are the type of individuals and teams we're looking to 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:24.000 back and it's a very specific person UM, and I 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.040 think that that sort of captures the the kind of 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:31.120 astronauts were looking for. Harvard Connection. Was that a fun idea? 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.520 Was that really going to be a business? What was 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.080 the thinking when you guys first heat that up? So 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.559 it's definitely UM a lot of fun thinking about this, 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.559 but we always thought this could be a great business 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.559 as well. There's actually Harvard Connection that was rebranded to 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:49.560 Connect to You UM, but the idea was to help 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.720 students connect UM more easily on campuses. We went to 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.040 Harvard for undergraduate but in in Boston alone, there's at 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:00.760 least fifty schools. There's so many different students, but by 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.360 junior year, we hadn't really met many people from outside 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.520 of your walk of life. You you know, you're in 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.560 sports team, you're you do, you have your major, and 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.840 you don't really like connect outside of your bubbles, like 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:17.240 life's too busy and geography constraints whatever. So we sort 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.959 of said, like, let's let our fingers do the walking, 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:24.480 and let's put real life social networks online and let's 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:29.800 use email addresses to filter people into networks within networks. 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.120 So if you go to Harvard, you have a Harvard 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.280 dot E d U email address. Um, you can't get 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.040 that unless you're actually a student. Um, the registrar gives 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.040 you one, and they don't issue you more than once. 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.200 You can't just give one an X one to a friend. Um. 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:45.720 So and the same thing if you go and you 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:47.440 work at a company. Let's say you go to work 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.840 at Golden Sacks, you get a Golden Sacks. Uh, you 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.200 know email address. I can't get one because I don't 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.400 work there. And so all of a sudden you can 0:13:55.400 --> 0:14:00.240 start building some order online. Um. You know, the predecessors 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.880 to connect to Facebook where my space uh friends stir. 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.240 But they were just one network, a home morass of people. 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.199 You couldn't really find people based on their schools or 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.880 where they were, and that was really the breakthrough that 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:17.840 we that we had that later was uh, you know, 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:25.880 pushed into into Facebook. So here's the obligatory social network question. Um, 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:27.760 what do you guys think in the movie? Did they 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.840 ever consult with you? Were you sort of surprised by 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:35.400 how you were depicted? What? What was your experience with that? Like? So, 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.800 we we liked the movie. I think we're the only 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:43.040 people depicted in it that actually went to the premiere. Um. Uh, 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:47.640 so you know, I think they did, did you right? Yeah? Um? 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:49.760 I think they did a great job of telling a 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.080 story and three different sides of the story, but not 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:58.520 drawing a specific conclusion. So the conversation really starts as 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.800 you leave the theater, and based on how they told 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.760 the story, you can sort of take any any of 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:08.080 the sides of the different characters. Um. But I think, 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.360 you know, there was a ton of information in the 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.800 public domain, believe it or not, at that point, so 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.320 they could do a ton of research without even actually 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:20.560 talking to the subjects. Um. I think it probably should 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.280 have won Best Picture. I remember one that year it 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:30.120 was well that was made for the Oscars. Yeah, it was. 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.520 It was sort of packaged and feel that you know, 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:36.360 you're fick like campaign. I think they got the Queen 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.680 of England to sort of endorse it. They just you know, 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.200 ran an incredible and it's a movie you can you 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.280 can watch with your grandparents and younger kids. It's it's 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.160 feel good, you're kind of rooting for the king even 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:53.040 though he's a king. Um, and you know, the social network. 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:54.680 I think a lot of people get to the end 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.640 of that movie and you sort of feel like, wow, okay, 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.840 this is this is not a happy world. Um, it's 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.360 not you know, um, there's you know, necessarily that feeling 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.280 to it. So it was the original business model of 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:14.320 Harvard Connection. Let's spread fake news and affect the presidential campaign? 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:18.880 Or did that come later that that's funny? Um? I mean, 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:22.440 so when we were thinking about this idea, we were saying, like, 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.400 if this works on the Harvard campus, there's no reason 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:28.560 it doesn't work on every campus, you know, every like 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:32.000 micro network in the world at that time, So as 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.720 long as you have a single identifying email address, that 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.040 can't be fake, right. I mean, so at that point, 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:41.240 people were still almost not being themselves online and using avatars, 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:43.600 and then this was really the first time where people 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.440 were saying, hey, I want to be identified as Cameron Winklevoss. 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:48.560 I want people to be able to find me, I 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.240 think today now because if you go back to like 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.400 the a LL like a well, the chat rooms, no 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:59.480 one was themselves right nobly it wasn't Yeah, and then 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.760 all of a sudd um there was this flip um 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.840 sort of cracked the identity problem on the Internet and 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:08.960 then everyone's like, wait, I'm gonna be my real self online. 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.720 And that was really interesting to see that sort of movement. 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:17.080 So net net was the social network good for you? 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.200 Did it? Was it? Do you to come away from 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:22.400 it with a positive experience or did you think of 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.800 this as well? They kind of you know, told the 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.080 story and and played a little fast and loose with 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.679 the truth and and made some people out to be 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:35.560 good guys and bad guys. So I think that we've 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.159 made it good for us. I think ultimately you have 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.000 to like take these things and try and you know, 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:45.080 make them positive for you. Um, it's a at the 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.359 end of the day, it's a piece of art and 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:52.280 entertainment first and foremost, as opposed to a documentary that's 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:57.679 hard hitting, uh, investigative reporting. And you know, we certainly 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.440 understood that difference, but a lot of people don't. They're like, oh, 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.040 that's like exactly how things went as opposed to that's 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.960 sort of a composite storytelling. Um. But yeah, I mean 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.959 I think overall it was super exciting to sort of 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.200 watch it unfold and happen. It was flattering that people 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:20.320 cared about our story to some extent. Um, And like 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.360 Cameron says, it's a lot like it could have been 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:27.640 a really bad movie, um, a really bad portrayal. Um, 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:30.679 it happened to be like a great movie when we 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.680 can show our grandkids kind of things. So you can't 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.520 take yourself or it too seriously. The funny thing is, though, 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.359 is like a lot of other people like take it 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.280 more seriously than at least we do. Well, it sounds 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.879 like you guys have a healthy attitude about it. We try, um, 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:48.560 but people will come up on the street and they'll 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.080 be like, I'm so piste off or like you know, 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.000 they're like really exercised about the movie or what happened 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.720 or this or that. Um, it's like, dude, calm down, 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.200 Like it's okay, it's just a movie. Well, so let's 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:03.960 talk about real life a second. So you're working on 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:08.640 Harvard Connection, you hire Zuckerberg to do some coding for you. 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.439 At what point did you start to get an inkling, Hey, 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:16.480 this guy is uh not really being all that transparent 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.560 with us. We got our first inkling when we read 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:24.400 the Harvard Crimson at the dining room table and we're started. 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:28.200 It was like surreal, like you're reading you know, this 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.720 this alternative reality, and we're like, well, wait a second, 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.600 maybe there's like another gone on campus with the same 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.760 name who's thinking about, you know, the same thing. And 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.720 it was just a very surreal moment, and that that's 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.080 when we sort of realized what what had happened, right, 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.760 so that the Harvard Crimson's the student newspaper um. But 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.600 then when we obviously were shocked, we're like, what like 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.119 Mark Zuckerberg launched the Facebook. We're like reading our own 0:19:55.119 --> 0:20:01.040 obituary and it's like so super surreal. Uh. Then sort 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.280 of looking back as we sort of uncovered or thought, like, 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.800 there was fifty two emails exchange, and it was clear, 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.040 as we learned later on, that he would say he 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.760 was doing stuff and then tell his friend like, I'm 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:17.119 sandbagging them effectively. So so yeah, it was it was 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.159 like this. It wasn't like all of a sudden he 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.960 went his own way and said, see guys like good luck. 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:28.280 It was sort of this methodical, premeditated sandbagging, which was 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:31.919 really the basis of of the lawsuit, which was fraud. 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:36.800 So you pursued proceeded on two levels. One was the lawsuit, 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:41.520 but there was also UM a Harvard Code of Ethics 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.320 that the claim was, hey, you have an obligation as 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:49.760 a student here to maintain the highest levels of ethical standards. 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:52.560 How did that play out in real life? It was 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.239 depicted in a certain way. It did because in the 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.440 movie it's a whole discussion with the president of the 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.440 university and that that turns out to be kind of 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:05.520 artistic license. Larry Summers wasn't that interested in the the 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:09.600 Ethics handbook, so so that the part is accurate where 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:13.720 we go to student office hours and sit in line 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.720 like everyone else and say, look, you know, the handbook 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:20.720 says this a student you know, uh, interacted with us 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:24.840 in a way that's in violation of that UM. And yeah, 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:28.320 the truth is the fact is that that the university 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:32.520 UM in present Summers just didn't care UM. So that 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:36.879 was disappointing. Um. I think you know, as young students, 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:42.080 you know, wide eyed, bushytail like entrepreneurs. I think we thought, 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.000 we naively thought that like the student handbook had some 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:50.200 teeth or would sort of um protect us. We we uh, 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.000 we certainly approached him as a fellow student, not some 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:58.359 random stranger. Um. And so that was an eye opener. 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:00.840 And I don't want to say a loss of innocence, 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:04.240 but oh gosh, like you know, um, it just felt 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:08.240 like we we had a different idea or perception of 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:11.520 what actually the reality was. You had expectations of better 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.280 behavior from a fellow Harvard student. Is that a fair 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:17.280 way to sum it up? I think? So when did 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:21.720 you guys first get involved in in bitcoin? So we 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:26.480 we first got involved in the summer of and we 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:32.040 first learned about it on vacation in Abisa. So I 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:34.080 gotta think bitcoin is like ten bucks then, is that 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:36.879 about right? I think it was just under ten. It 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:41.520 was high single digits um, which which at that point, 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.240 if you talk to bitcoiners, was like, oh, it's getting 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:51.640 really expensive, right it used to be like pennies, you know. Um, 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:55.080 So we're on vacation and a guy who we didn't know, 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:59.360 but it had mutual friends in common. Came up, introduced himself, 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:02.040 said like, basically, have you what have you guys thought? 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.840 Have you guys thought about bitcoin digital currency? And we 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:10.680 hadn't UM and we had just started winklebos capital Um 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:14.040 a few months earlier. We had just been we retired 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:17.600 from rowing. We had rowed for fifteen years. We competed 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:20.600 in the two eight Olympics and decided to hang up 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:24.080 um our oars, and so we were just starting to 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:29.600 get into entrepreneurship UM again basically via angel investing, and 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:33.239 so we were totally all ears for new ideas and 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:37.160 we stayed in touch and then met some UM bitcoin 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:39.960