1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Boomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: set of guests. Cameron and Tyler Winklevoss are the twins 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: who have been behind some of the most fascinating developments 5 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: in technology, cryptocurrency, venture capital. UH. You might be familiar 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,159 Speaker 1: with them from the way they were depicted in the 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: Social network. They were the folks who had the original 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: idea behind Harvard Connection, which later became a predecessor company 9 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: that theoretically Mark Zuckerberg lifted some of the ideas from 10 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: and used to launch UH Facebook. We talked about that, 11 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: We discuss the variety of different opportunities that exist in cryptocurrency, 12 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: in bitcoin, in Gemini, which is the exchange your vault 13 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: in exchange they set up. We talked about other venture 14 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: capital work they do. It's really a fascinating conversation that's 15 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 1: wide ranging and covers a ton of different stuff. If 16 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: you are at all remotely interested in anything from vcs 17 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: to start up to crypto, you will find this conversation fascinating. So, 18 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: with no further ado, my conversation with the Winkelvy. My 19 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: special guest this week are Cameron and Tyler Winklevos, better 20 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 1: known as winkle Vye. Is that plural? Do you guys 21 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: like that? Or is that just a tired joke you're 22 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: sick of? Okay with it? So in case you are 23 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: wholly unfamiliar with who they are, They most famously worked 24 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: on the predecessor at Harvard UH to Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg, 25 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: who they subsequently sued for stealing their intellectual property. That 26 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: case was settled for tens of millions of dollars. They 27 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: now run winkle Voss Capital, a VC firm, and have 28 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: been aggressive investors in crypto, blockchain, bitcoin, etcetera. They also 29 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: founded Gemini, a cryptocurrency exchange. Cameron and Tyler winkle Voss, 30 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Bloomberg. Thanks for having us than you, And 31 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: by the way, you guys have to just feel free 32 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: to jump in. I don't know which one of you 33 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: to look at. You are my first set of twins 34 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: as interviewees. So it's a little confusing, but but quite 35 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: intriguing and I think we'll have a little fun with it. 36 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: So I have to start with the obvious question. You 37 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: guys must be recognized wherever you go. Is that a headache? 38 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: Is it a hindrance? Does it help? How do you 39 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: how do you deal with your fame from from the 40 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: whole Facebook debacle? So, you know, we're not recognized, So 41 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: we've we've always been recognized, well in the sense that like, oh, 42 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: there's two of you, So there's always been this thing like, wait, 43 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: are you guys twins? Way before any of all that, 44 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: does anyone really ask you if you're twins? I mean, 45 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: you guys kind of look like identical twins more than 46 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: you think, And a lot of times they ask if 47 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: we're identical or like brothers, Um, well brothers, really, I'm 48 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: not sure if you guys are related. That's just shocking 49 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: that anyon would say that. But the it kind of 50 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: depends where we are. We can at least it feels 51 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: like we can kind of blend in a little bit, 52 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: but it's it's definitely harder being six four, six, five 53 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: six or five twins. That's almost harder to disguise than like, oh, 54 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: those are the guys from the social network. So it 55 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: kind of depends where we are. If we're at like 56 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: a business school event or something, um, you know where 57 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: people sort of read trade magazines, or a cryptocurrency event, um, 58 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: but if we're just kind of walking down the street, 59 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like a lot of people necessarily recognize us. 60 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: But maybe we just don't see it. And and Manhattan 61 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: is pretty chill about that for the most part. Is 62 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: for the most part. I mean, we've definitely been asked 63 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: to take selfies just because we're twins. Yeah, the person 64 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: had like no idea who we were and probably figured 65 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: it out after the fact or whatever. Um so the 66 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: twin thing gets a lot of eyes for sure, especially 67 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: because we're you know, not you know, we're older twins. 68 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: Usually you know, twins sort of separate, live in different cities. 69 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: We kind of work together where we have similar routines. 70 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: So we might be like walking together down the street 71 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: and people sort of turn around and say, oh, those 72 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: are two guys that are tall, that look people appreciate 73 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: the fact that we still get along and we're like 74 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: in our later thirties. I think they expect to sort 75 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: of see twins, you know, ten year old twins like 76 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: hanging out with lollipops and all right, So let's let's 77 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: move forward from I'm sure you're tired of that question. 78 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: You must get all the time. So undergraduate Harvard Business 79 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: School at Oxford. Was the plan always to go into finance, 80 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: to be entrepreneurs? What was what was the thinking when 81 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: you were mapping out your academic and professional careers. I 82 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: think the idea was I think we thought we would 83 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: always be entrepreneurs because our dad is an entrepreneur and 84 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: he has a technology company and has been building software 85 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: for thirty years. UM. He was a professor of actual 86 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: science back at Wharton. And then when Offen became an entrepreneur. 87 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: So we we grew up UM in a startup tech 88 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: office environment, and we always wanted to sort of be 89 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,559 Speaker 1: like that. UM, and then we discovered the sport of rowing, 90 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: and one thing led to the next, and said, oh, 91 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: maybe I can be good at this in high school, 92 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 1: and then got pretty good, made junior national team, and 93 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: said maybe we can row in college. And I don't 94 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: see what happened how you ended up on the Tarles River. 95 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: Was it from high school rowing? Yeah? I mean that 96 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: was Harvard was Harry Parker was this legendary coach. He 97 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: coached for over fifty season and by the time we 98 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: were applying to college, he was a guy that you 99 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: would aspire as a as a high school rower to 100 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: to row for and then we got to college and said, hey, 101 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: maybe we can make the varsity and then we did that. 102 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: We're undefeated national champions in two thousand three, two thousand four, UM, 103 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: and then we said, hey, maybe we should try our 104 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: luck at the national team and try the Olympic level. 105 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: So it was one of these things that just I 106 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: kind of call our our sports career a bit of 107 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: a detour because we didn't grow up in this jock household. 108 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: My parents played sports, but you know, the house and 109 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: revolve around that. It actually really revolved around entrepreneurship in 110 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: business ideas. So rowings sort of started off as this 111 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: thing that became a fifteen year detour, but I think 112 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: we always knew we'd get back into startups. So so 113 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: let's talk about startups. You guys run Winklevoss Capital. What 114 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: sort of companies do you invest in? What are you 115 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: looking for? Uh? In a startup? So we invest in 116 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: early stage startups with the technology focused really, but we're 117 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: somewhat agnostic. UM, We've definitely invested in consumer brands and 118 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,559 Speaker 1: and things that we like. UM. It's a private investment firms, 119 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: so we kind of make the decisions and call the shots. 120 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: We don't have outside money UM yet. UM. We could 121 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: potentially raise it some later point, but currently it's private. Yeah, 122 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: and I think that there's just a big focus on 123 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: UH software technology, although as Cameron said, we've definitely done 124 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: CpG type stuff. UM. So it is it is really 125 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: up to us that that is the fun about it, 126 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: and that has actually been one of the greatest advantages 127 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: is the agility and the nimbleness because when we saw 128 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: bitcoin originally, UM, we could invest in it because we 129 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: called the shots versus a lot of vcs they can 130 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: only invest in C corps. So they had structural problems 131 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: with their UM you know, private offering documents where even 132 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: if they wanted to invest in bitcoin they could, they 133 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: had to invest in companies and the partners a lot 134 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: of them UH saw the opportunity and personally invested in bitcoin, 135 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: but could invest their funding. It interesting. So sticking with 136 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: portfolio companies, you had a firm you invested in Love 137 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: Begins with l was just acquired by Procter and Gamble 138 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: are crunch Base says you've already had thirteen exits. Is 139 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: that more or less accurate? Lucky number thirteen? So thirteen though, 140 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: but where's the denominator in crunch base thirteen out of 141 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: how many companies have you guys actually been that successful 142 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: with already? I think we've invested in over seventy at 143 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: this point. UM, So that's a good percentage to have 144 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: about with an exit already. I think at this life cycle, UM, 145 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: it's still pretty early. Like we started investing UM about 146 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: five years ago, and UM, I think most venture capital 147 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: funds have about a ten year lifespan. So you could 148 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: argue we're about halfway through, and there's there's a number 149 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: of great stories that are playing out as we speak, 150 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: and then there's there's some that you thought were going 151 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: to play out a little bit longer and get snatched 152 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: up UM pretty quickly. I think one a good example 153 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: as this company Chariot, which is building basically ride sharing 154 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: and it was taking more of a group model, and 155 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: so they got these big vans from Ford and had 156 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: these roots and an app and UM there you know, 157 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: their equipment supplier was Ford, and Ford eventually was like, oh, 158 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: let's you know, we should just acquire these guys because 159 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: we're not gonna go build and you know, experiment this way. UM. 160 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: So that exit I think happened maybe a year after 161 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: our money was wired um, and it was a great 162 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: return we probably you know, I thought it might have 163 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: played out over a couple more cities another year or two, 164 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: but um, it was. It was a great outcome for us. 165 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: And we're seeing a lot of that were um. You know, 166 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: we we invest in brands, they start getting traction and 167 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: then a large UM consumer company comes and just basically 168 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: acquires it because they've got all the distribution, but they 169 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: don't have that innovative thing going on. So I want 170 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: to come back to bitcoin in a little bit because 171 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: there's a ton of stuff to go up with you. 172 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: But I have to ask you something about the Winkle 173 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: Voice Capital website. You have on that home page a 174 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: fascinating painting that I've been in trance with by Jack 175 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: Crossing on Sixth Avenue. What motivated you to put that 176 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: on on your home page? Are you on sixth Avenue 177 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: or what? What was about? And if you've never seen 178 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: the picture the painting, it's an astronaut and full full 179 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: um space suit on fire Crossing sixth Avenue. Yeah, I 180 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: think I think we really like the image because a 181 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: we're New York based, UM, so it really spoke to 182 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: us in that fashion. B it's an astronaut and a 183 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: lot of these companies, including you know bitcoin and cryptos 184 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: pushing that frontier right going into space moonshots exactly, and 185 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: then the flames you know represent I think, uh, the 186 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: risk inherent with with these entrepreneurs and what they're trying 187 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: to do and and um, you know people often you 188 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: know they dare to like think big, but you also 189 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: have to dare to know that, like you know, you 190 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: could fail in a big way. Um. It just may 191 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: not work. You might put years of your life on 192 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: the line for no guarantee, no return. Um. And that's 193 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: just important, you know, being able to take that risk 194 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: and being comfortable with it and if you fall, getting 195 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: right back up and going at it again. What what's 196 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: the Jeff Bezos quote If you're not failing, you're not 197 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: taking enough risk or something to that effect. That sounds right. Um. 198 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: You know, we had a rowing coach in high school 199 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: that said, if you meet all of your goals, you're 200 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: not setting them high enough. So there's probably a lot 201 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: of ways to skin that saying. But I think Cameron 202 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: makes a really good point, Um, being comfortable with the 203 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: concept of huge failure. UM is really the essence I 204 00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: think of of entrepreneurship and risk taking. UM. I think 205 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: that that astronaut picture really embodies that and and sort 206 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: of the the essence of what it means to be 207 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 1: an entrepreneur. And and yeah, it's not for everyone, and 208 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's certainly not an everyday thing. And those 209 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 1: are the type of individuals and teams we're looking to 210 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: back and it's a very specific person UM, and I 211 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: think that that sort of captures the the kind of 212 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: astronauts were looking for. Harvard Connection. Was that a fun idea? 213 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: Was that really going to be a business? What was 214 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: the thinking when you guys first heat that up? So 215 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: it's definitely UM a lot of fun thinking about this, 216 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 1: but we always thought this could be a great business 217 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 1: as well. There's actually Harvard Connection that was rebranded to 218 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: Connect to You UM, but the idea was to help 219 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: students connect UM more easily on campuses. We went to 220 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: Harvard for undergraduate but in in Boston alone, there's at 221 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: least fifty schools. There's so many different students, but by 222 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: junior year, we hadn't really met many people from outside 223 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: of your walk of life. You you know, you're in 224 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: sports team, you're you do, you have your major, and 225 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: you don't really like connect outside of your bubbles, like 226 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: life's too busy and geography constraints whatever. So we sort 227 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 1: of said, like, let's let our fingers do the walking, 228 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: and let's put real life social networks online and let's 229 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: use email addresses to filter people into networks within networks. 230 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: So if you go to Harvard, you have a Harvard 231 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: dot E d U email address. Um, you can't get 232 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: that unless you're actually a student. Um, the registrar gives 233 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: you one, and they don't issue you more than once. 234 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: You can't just give one an X one to a friend. Um. 235 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: So and the same thing if you go and you 236 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: work at a company. Let's say you go to work 237 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: at Golden Sacks, you get a Golden Sacks. Uh, you 238 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: know email address. I can't get one because I don't 239 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: work there. And so all of a sudden you can 240 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: start building some order online. Um. You know, the predecessors 241 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: to connect to Facebook where my space uh friends stir. 242 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: But they were just one network, a home morass of people. 243 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 1: You couldn't really find people based on their schools or 244 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: where they were, and that was really the breakthrough that 245 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: we that we had that later was uh, you know, 246 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: pushed into into Facebook. So here's the obligatory social network question. Um, 247 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: what do you guys think in the movie? Did they 248 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: ever consult with you? Were you sort of surprised by 249 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: how you were depicted? What? What was your experience with that? Like? So, 250 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: we we liked the movie. I think we're the only 251 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: people depicted in it that actually went to the premiere. Um. Uh, 252 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: so you know, I think they did, did you right? Yeah? Um? 253 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: I think they did a great job of telling a 254 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: story and three different sides of the story, but not 255 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: drawing a specific conclusion. So the conversation really starts as 256 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: you leave the theater, and based on how they told 257 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: the story, you can sort of take any any of 258 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: the sides of the different characters. Um. But I think, 259 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: you know, there was a ton of information in the 260 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: public domain, believe it or not, at that point, so 261 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: they could do a ton of research without even actually 262 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: talking to the subjects. Um. I think it probably should 263 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: have won Best Picture. I remember one that year it 264 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: was well that was made for the Oscars. Yeah, it was. 265 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: It was sort of packaged and feel that you know, 266 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: you're fick like campaign. I think they got the Queen 267 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: of England to sort of endorse it. They just you know, 268 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: ran an incredible and it's a movie you can you 269 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: can watch with your grandparents and younger kids. It's it's 270 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: feel good, you're kind of rooting for the king even 271 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: though he's a king. Um, and you know, the social network. 272 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people get to the end 273 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: of that movie and you sort of feel like, wow, okay, 274 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: this is this is not a happy world. Um, it's 275 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: not you know, um, there's you know, necessarily that feeling 276 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: to it. So it was the original business model of 277 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: Harvard Connection. Let's spread fake news and affect the presidential campaign? 278 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: Or did that come later that that's funny? Um? I mean, 279 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: so when we were thinking about this idea, we were saying, like, 280 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: if this works on the Harvard campus, there's no reason 281 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: it doesn't work on every campus, you know, every like 282 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: micro network in the world at that time, So as 283 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: long as you have a single identifying email address, that 284 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: can't be fake, right. I mean, so at that point, 285 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: people were still almost not being themselves online and using avatars, 286 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: and then this was really the first time where people 287 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: were saying, hey, I want to be identified as Cameron Winklevoss. 288 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: I want people to be able to find me, I 289 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: think today now because if you go back to like 290 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: the a LL like a well, the chat rooms, no 291 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: one was themselves right nobly it wasn't Yeah, and then 292 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: all of a sudd um there was this flip um 293 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: sort of cracked the identity problem on the Internet and 294 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: then everyone's like, wait, I'm gonna be my real self online. 295 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: And that was really interesting to see that sort of movement. 296 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: So net net was the social network good for you? 297 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: Did it? Was it? Do you to come away from 298 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: it with a positive experience or did you think of 299 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: this as well? They kind of you know, told the 300 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: story and and played a little fast and loose with 301 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: the truth and and made some people out to be 302 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: good guys and bad guys. So I think that we've 303 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: made it good for us. I think ultimately you have 304 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: to like take these things and try and you know, 305 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: make them positive for you. Um, it's a at the 306 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: end of the day, it's a piece of art and 307 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: entertainment first and foremost, as opposed to a documentary that's 308 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: hard hitting, uh, investigative reporting. And you know, we certainly 309 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: understood that difference, but a lot of people don't. They're like, oh, 310 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: that's like exactly how things went as opposed to that's 311 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: sort of a composite storytelling. Um. But yeah, I mean 312 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 1: I think overall it was super exciting to sort of 313 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: watch it unfold and happen. It was flattering that people 314 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: cared about our story to some extent. Um, And like 315 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 1: Cameron says, it's a lot like it could have been 316 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: a really bad movie, um, a really bad portrayal. Um, 317 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: it happened to be like a great movie when we 318 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: can show our grandkids kind of things. So you can't 319 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: take yourself or it too seriously. The funny thing is, though, 320 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: is like a lot of other people like take it 321 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: more seriously than at least we do. Well, it sounds 322 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: like you guys have a healthy attitude about it. We try, um, 323 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: but people will come up on the street and they'll 324 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: be like, I'm so piste off or like you know, 325 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: they're like really exercised about the movie or what happened 326 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: or this or that. Um, it's like, dude, calm down, 327 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: Like it's okay, it's just a movie. Well, so let's 328 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: talk about real life a second. So you're working on 329 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: Harvard Connection, you hire Zuckerberg to do some coding for you. 330 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: At what point did you start to get an inkling, Hey, 331 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: this guy is uh not really being all that transparent 332 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: with us. We got our first inkling when we read 333 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 1: the Harvard Crimson at the dining room table and we're started. 334 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: It was like surreal, like you're reading you know, this 335 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: this alternative reality, and we're like, well, wait a second, 336 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: maybe there's like another gone on campus with the same 337 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: name who's thinking about, you know, the same thing. And 338 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: it was just a very surreal moment, and that that's 339 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: when we sort of realized what what had happened, right, 340 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: so that the Harvard Crimson's the student newspaper um. But 341 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: then when we obviously were shocked, we're like, what like 342 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg launched the Facebook. We're like reading our own 343 00:19:55,119 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: obituary and it's like so super surreal. Uh. Then sort 344 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: of looking back as we sort of uncovered or thought, like, 345 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: there was fifty two emails exchange, and it was clear, 346 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: as we learned later on, that he would say he 347 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: was doing stuff and then tell his friend like, I'm 348 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: sandbagging them effectively. So so yeah, it was it was 349 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: like this. It wasn't like all of a sudden he 350 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: went his own way and said, see guys like good luck. 351 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: It was sort of this methodical, premeditated sandbagging, which was 352 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: really the basis of of the lawsuit, which was fraud. 353 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: So you pursued proceeded on two levels. One was the lawsuit, 354 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: but there was also UM a Harvard Code of Ethics 355 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: that the claim was, hey, you have an obligation as 356 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: a student here to maintain the highest levels of ethical standards. 357 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: How did that play out in real life? It was 358 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,239 Speaker 1: depicted in a certain way. It did because in the 359 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: movie it's a whole discussion with the president of the 360 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: university and that that turns out to be kind of 361 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: artistic license. Larry Summers wasn't that interested in the the 362 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: Ethics handbook, so so that the part is accurate where 363 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: we go to student office hours and sit in line 364 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: like everyone else and say, look, you know, the handbook 365 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: says this a student you know, uh, interacted with us 366 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: in a way that's in violation of that UM. And yeah, 367 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: the truth is the fact is that that the university 368 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: UM in present Summers just didn't care UM. So that 369 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: was disappointing. Um. I think you know, as young students, 370 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: you know, wide eyed, bushytail like entrepreneurs. I think we thought, 371 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: we naively thought that like the student handbook had some 372 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: teeth or would sort of um protect us. We we uh, 373 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: we certainly approached him as a fellow student, not some 374 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: random stranger. Um. And so that was an eye opener. 375 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: And I don't want to say a loss of innocence, 376 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: but oh gosh, like you know, um, it just felt 377 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: like we we had a different idea or perception of 378 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: what actually the reality was. You had expectations of better 379 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: behavior from a fellow Harvard student. Is that a fair 380 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: way to sum it up? I think? So when did 381 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: you guys first get involved in in bitcoin? So we 382 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: we first got involved in the summer of and we 383 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: first learned about it on vacation in Abisa. So I 384 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: gotta think bitcoin is like ten bucks then, is that 385 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: about right? I think it was just under ten. It 386 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: was high single digits um, which which at that point, 387 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: if you talk to bitcoiners, was like, oh, it's getting 388 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: really expensive, right it used to be like pennies, you know. Um, 389 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: So we're on vacation and a guy who we didn't know, 390 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: but it had mutual friends in common. Came up, introduced himself, 391 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: said like, basically, have you what have you guys thought? 392 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: Have you guys thought about bitcoin digital currency? And we 393 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: hadn't UM and we had just started winklebos capital Um 394 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: a few months earlier. We had just been we retired 395 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: from rowing. We had rowed for fifteen years. We competed 396 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: in the two eight Olympics and decided to hang up 397 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: um our oars, and so we were just starting to 398 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: get into entrepreneurship UM again basically via angel investing, and 399 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,239 Speaker 1: so we were totally all ears for new ideas and 400 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: we stayed in touch and then met some UM bitcoin 401 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs in New York as soon as we got back 402 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: to the States and the rest of sort of history. 403 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: Did you start by buying bitcoin or start by putting 404 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: money into other crypto related UM startups? So that was 405 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: kind of a debate we had internally, Um, what's a 406 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 1: better investment the coin or the company built on top 407 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: of it. We ended up actually doing both UM. But 408 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: I think in a lot of these cases for cryptocurrencies, 409 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: the ultimate bitcoin bat is bitcoin, because Bitcoin's gotta work 410 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: first before a company that is built on top of 411 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: it works. So we we sort of like came to 412 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: the sequencing that UM buying the currency is it's sort 413 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: of like buying a piece of the entire Internet or 414 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: the ecosystem. UM. And so imagine if you could go 415 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: back in time and buy a piece of the Internet, 416 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: Like you don't have to bet on Amazon versus pets 417 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: dot com if you own the Internet, UM, as long 418 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: as you know, as long as you would be a 419 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: part of Amazon's growth. I remember when Network Solutions, which 420 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: was the registrar for domains that was officially approved. I 421 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: remember when that stock went crazy, and it was the 422 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: exact same argument. Hey, you don't have to pick a winner, 423 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: pick the one company that gets to get a little 424 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,479 Speaker 1: piece of every company online, just like sort of like 425 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: bet on the racetrack, not trying to pick the horses. 426 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: And as long as there's horses racing, you'll be a 427 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: part of the pot. So Bitcoin goes pretty vertical, starting 428 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: in with a couple of big pullbacks, but ultimately towards 429 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: the end of I want to say it was about 430 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: nineteen Is that about right? That's about right, And I 431 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: think that the first sort of big inflection point we 432 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: saw was in I think it was March of when 433 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 1: there's the Cyprus um financial crisis and the government did 434 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: a bal in so basically they trimmed anybody with deposits 435 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: above a hundred thousand euro. They just took it, and 436 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: right people started, you know, bitcoin sort of hit and 437 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 1: mainstream consciousness at that point and people realized, wow, this 438 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: is like a global asset that um, it's fascinating. It's 439 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: it's literally a digital gold. I've been calling it libertarian 440 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: gold because the philosophy of the government shouldn't be able 441 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: to do what is so appealing to that right. And 442 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: one of the things though we also realized as as 443 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: it sort of entered mainstream consciousness was that, you know, 444 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: the Cypriots, the ship had sailed for them, right, they 445 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: weren't going to get into bitcoin, and it already happened. 446 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: But there's a lot of people who saw that who 447 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: then said, hey, how do I get into bitcoin? And 448 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: the only option at that time was a was a 449 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: site called Mount cox Um, which is mt g o X. 450 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: It stands for Magic the Gathering Online Exchange. So prior 451 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: to being a bitcoin exchange, it was a Magic the 452 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: Gathering Online exchange for literally magic cards, and they did 453 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: one of the greatest pivots of all time into bitcoin, 454 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: and so we actually acquired a lot of our bitcoin 455 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: on Mount Cox. Thankfully we weren't caught up when it imploded, 456 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: we had already left the exchange. But through that sort 457 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: of experience and all the risk, UM, we built our 458 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: own cold storage system. We basically private keys, shartered them, 459 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 1: cut them in basically into pieces, and then distributed across 460 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: the country in banks. Um, and some banks like they 461 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: kind of figured what we were up to, Like they 462 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: knew we were involved with bitcoins, so they're like, no, like, 463 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: you can't open up a deposit box. Um, we got 464 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: turned away by a number of banks. I would think 465 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: anyone could walk into any bank and say, Hi, I 466 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: want to open a safety deposit, you would think, But 467 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: I think that's kind of how it works, right, because 468 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: when you open one up, then the bank person leaves 469 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: and gives you that privacy. They're not really supposed to 470 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: ask you. Yeah, but apparently it's not you know, contraband 471 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: why would you're not supposed to put dollars in? Okay? 472 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: I think you could potentially argue that we were putting value, 473 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: But but you know, a shart of a private key 474 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: in it of itself is not value, it's the quorum 475 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: of those keys, so it's it was a really interesting 476 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: kind of experience, and we lived on planes for you know, 477 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,239 Speaker 1: the better part of a week UM, and we're like, 478 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: we're really motivated to do this great, but how do 479 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: we really get people into this system? And how do 480 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: we create an on ramp? And that kind of led 481 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: us into um the gap, which is that in order 482 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: for this to really work, we've got to have regulated 483 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: infrastructure that's licensed, compliant, built with like a security first mentality, 484 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: and that was the genesis of Gemini Are, our online 485 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: platform that we started building, we launched, and we've been 486 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: running in building since since then. UM. And the simple 487 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: value prop is really by sell and store initially Bitcoin 488 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: now ethereum z cash, Bitcoin cash, light coin, and we'll 489 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: be adding more UM. And then once we built that 490 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: trusted platform, you know we we didn't, we launched mobile app, 491 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: so you can download the Gemini Mobile app and the 492 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: Google Play or the Apple um iOS store and literally 493 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: travel with your crypto at your your tips and you 494 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: can trade and do whatever you need to do effectively 495 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: mobile UM. So that was that's what we've been working 496 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: on for the better part of the best for or 497 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: five years. Let's let's talk about wink decks, because I 498 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: haven't really gotten to that. This is effectively your UM 499 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: custom index of various cryptocurrencies. Is that a fair way 500 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: to describe it. So it is a blended price index 501 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: of UM bitcoin prices UM. So it's just one of 502 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: the products we've been building over the past couple of years. 503 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: When you say blended, is it multiple cryptos or is 504 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: it just one, Well, there's one for memo correctly, bitcoin 505 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: and ether. So the risk profiles of exchanges very a 506 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: lot because every crypto exchange is also custodian, so when 507 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: you trade somewhere, you've got to commit your capital there. 508 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: And some exchanges are like mount Cox and some exchanges 509 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: are like Gemini they've never had an incident. So UM 510 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: prices can differ in the industry quite a bit from 511 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: different exchanges because of the risk profile of how they custody, 512 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: whether or not you can get Fiat dollars in or 513 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: out UM. So the idea of the win de x 514 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: was to try and create a price because there's a 515 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: lot of disparate prices UM and understand what that sort 516 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: of blend is similar to stocks where you have things 517 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: trading on the New York than AZDAC that you go 518 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: through all the list of different exchanges, very often you'll 519 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: have a different price across this. You want to come 520 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: up with, here's the actual price of bitcoin at this moment. 521 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: That's that's correct. Yeah. So the question that that I 522 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: find intriguing from an institutional perspective is I've heard and 523 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: read various parties say it's challenging to get liquid and 524 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: bitcoin for size, meaning hundreds of thousands of dollars. Has 525 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: that changed? Is it going to change in the future 526 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: If someone wants to move a million dollars in and 527 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: out a bitcoin, can you do that quickly? Or were 528 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: we not quite there yet? So the when we first 529 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: got into bitcoin, UM dollars was hard to move into 530 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: the market and actually acquire UM at a market cap? 531 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: Would you move the price if you were buying did 532 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: it in a way you know? You could definitely impact 533 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: the market um it was a hundred million dollar market 534 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: cap UM world that that when we first got in UM. 535 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: I think what people one of the common misconceptions about 536 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: bitcoin today is the liquidity. There's a lot more than 537 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: people think is there. UM you could move a million 538 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,479 Speaker 1: dollars in and out UM relatively easily UM, and so 539 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: very very quickly, very quickly, and a lot of times. 540 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: Because these exchanges are full reserve UM, the depth of 541 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: the order book looks shallower than it actually is is. 542 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: But Gemini, for instance, we have UM the world's biggest 543 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: liquidity providers outside of crypto their customers. So if you 544 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: can think of a name UM of a market maker 545 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: on New York Stock Exchange, there's a really good chance 546 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: there on Gemini. So we have the same amount of 547 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: UM liquidity in a sense, the same UH players are there. UM, 548 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: they just don't show as much because it's full reserve, 549 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: but it's meaning it's dollar for dollar back up. The 550 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: prime brokers haven't haven't totally moved into the space yet 551 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: so UM, but they're they're all sitting there and if 552 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: they see orders come onto the order book, they're going 553 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: to move funds and and try and add liquidity and 554 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: take the other side of that trade, assuming it makes 555 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: sense for them. What what do you make of Fidelity 556 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: investments being so aggressive so early moving into the crypto space. 557 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: The rest of Wall Street had kind of a let's 558 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: wait and see what's going to happen fidelity. Maybe I 559 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: wonder if they missed the E T F boom or something, 560 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: but they appear to have said, hey, this is the 561 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: next big thing we want in early. I think it 562 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense and it's a smart move. 563 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: Um there. You know, they see the opportunity today. It 564 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: may not make you know, the business case may not 565 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 1: be there today, but it will be there tomorrow. And 566 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: as these businesses work, um, you know, getting there first 567 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: is an advantage for sure. Um. I think a lot 568 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: of Wall Street got really close in seen and we're 569 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: about to take the plunge. Maybe they set up a 570 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: trading desk with one individual thinking they would scale that out. 571 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: I think Goldman Sachs, you know, built started to build 572 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: a trading desk, and then it seems to be a 573 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: little bit on pause, and you know people have backed away. 574 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: But there are going to be first movers and there's 575 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of value that accrues to them, 576 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: I think because of that. So so I love the 577 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: ad campaign that you guys have put together for Gemini 578 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: because it's so counter to the sort of wild West 579 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: early days of crypto, So just a full When I 580 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: was doing my homework, I I saw a couple of things. 581 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: The revolution needs rules was one crypto without chaos, which 582 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 1: certainly makes sense for people who seem to have lost 583 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: cash when something implodes or a company loses their their key. 584 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: It just seems insane that that happens. Money has a future. 585 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: You guys are trying to take this exchange and make 586 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: it like a regular mainstream currency exchange. Or am I 587 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: over selling that? I think that's that's right. I mean, 588 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 1: we we enter the space when it was a wild West. 589 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: We know what the revolution looks like without rules. Um, 590 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: it usually ends up with catastrophic failures. UM, people really 591 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: getting injured, a lot of value being lost. And you know, 592 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,479 Speaker 1: you would never put your money in an unregulated bank. UM, 593 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: it would never cross your mind. And yet in crypto, 594 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: like that's that's the sad reality of the market to 595 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: some extent. UM. I mean like we were there five 596 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: years ago, Like I don't miss that. I'm not nostalgic 597 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: for the early days of of of bitcoin or crypto. Um, 598 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't as interesting as it is today. The best 599 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs weren't in the game. UM, and I think that 600 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: the you know, the regulation is brought in certainty, it's 601 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 1: brought in more money there for investment, therefore better entrepreneurs UM. 602 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: It's sort of been this incredible great cycle UM. So 603 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: we lived that wild West firsthand, and it was scary 604 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: and a lot of people got burned. And uh we 605 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: created Gemini in the wake of all of that as 606 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: a solution to that problem so people could engage with 607 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: crypto in a way that was felt is you know, 608 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: safe and compliant as you know, opening a bank account 609 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: at g P. Morrigan or whatever, UM. And so we 610 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: we know what that's like and you know, so I 611 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: think we're pretty informed on on you know, the shortcomings 612 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,240 Speaker 1: of it. And I think the Money as a Future 613 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: really plays on this idea that most of the payment 614 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: mechanisms that we grew up with UM our decades old. UM. 615 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: The fed wire system is ancient. UM. Credit cards I 616 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: think came from the fifties and sixties. And I remember 617 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: the first days of eBay UM when I ordered some stuff, 618 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: I did a money order through through the post office. 619 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: So you go to the post office, you give them 620 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: a Hunter bucks, they give you like a slip that's 621 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: basically credit you put an envelope, you mail it off, 622 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: you get your good and then PayPal came out and 623 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: you're like, wow, that's amazing. It just made a life 624 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: so much easier. But then you realize that it's still 625 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: sending value through the existing system and protocols. It's really 626 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: not a global payment system. And then you discover Bitcoin 627 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 1: and you're like, oh my god, um, this is truly amazing. 628 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: You can send any amount of money for very cheap 629 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: um anywhere in the world pretty much instantaneously. UM. And 630 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: and so that fast forward to the past year. We 631 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: built the Gemini Dollar, which is a stable coin peg 632 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: to the dollar UM on the Ethereum network, and now 633 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: with the Gemini mobile app, I can send literally proxies 634 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: for U S dollars to anybody in the world, um, instantaneously. 635 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: We've literally brought dollars onto the blockchain. And that's like 636 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: the future of money. You know. It's kind of like 637 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: it's so counterintuitive, isn't it. Yeah. I mean it's sort 638 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: of like what Skype did for for voice. UM. I 639 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: remember when I was a kid, long distance calls were 640 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: a thing. Yeah, Like my mom would be like, like 641 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: your aunt's calling from California and we lived in Connecticut 642 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: at the time. It's like expensive as a big thing, 643 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: and that's what moving money has been for a long time, 644 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: since the beginning of time. Up your banker. You have 645 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: to put in these wire instructions. It's like these ancient protocols. 646 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: Mad you send a wire on Friday, Um, it in 647 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: there's a bank holiday on Monday. You know, from New 648 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: York to London, it's probably getting there on Tuesday. Um, 649 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: did you put the numbers in incorrectly? It's going to 650 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: be sitting in limbo for a long time. So that 651 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: the joke and crypto is you're better off getting um, 652 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: going to a plane on JFK and flying from New 653 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: York to London with a bag of cash because they 654 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: would get there quicker. So crypto, the ideas crypto is 655 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: basically making money, sending money and value as easy as 656 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: sending email. Um. So that's kind of the That was 657 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,359 Speaker 1: our aha moment um five years ago and it still 658 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: is today. So you describe it as amazing. A lot 659 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: of other people in shared that enthusiasm. Did you feel 660 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: in like bitcoin had blown up into a full on bubble? Like, 661 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 1: how are you looking? Having been there? So much earlier. 662 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: How are you looking at going We were in this 663 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: at eight dollars, this thing is now a thousand, five thousand, 664 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: ten thousand. At what point did you say this is 665 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: starting to get out of hand? Well, I think we 666 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,360 Speaker 1: we so seventeen we felt like, okay, we've seen this 667 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: movie movie before UM, because it was like, I don't 668 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: know that the twentie bitcoin bubble um where people said, oh, 669 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: it's out of it's way ahead of itself, it's going 670 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: to explode and be worth nothing. But each time the 671 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: excitement gets ahead of itself, it tends to stabilize at 672 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: a better floor than it than it was before. So 673 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: if you look at the instead of looking at the 674 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: fifty two week highs, look at the fifty two week lows, 675 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: and each of them are stepping up into the right direction. Now, 676 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,720 Speaker 1: the way we get there is kind of a wild 677 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: ride in between. UM. But we've sort of lived through 678 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,240 Speaker 1: this before, and now people call it a crypto winner, 679 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: and this is like the third or fourth winner we've 680 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: been in UM, so we've sort of seen this before. 681 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: It's pretty typical of early stage technology. People get over excited, 682 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: it recorrects, then entrepreneurs come and continue to build great 683 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: stuff and then it will go again. So we we 684 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: fully think that there will be another wave, UM, and 685 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: it should be probably more exciting than the last one. 686 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: So on paper, in your bitcoin investments scale up to 687 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: over a billion dollars? Is that fair number? That? That's 688 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: that's what I read. I don't know how much hyperbole, 689 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 1: isn't that? What is it like when you're saying, I 690 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: know this is a little crazy, but there it is 691 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: on paper, it's a billion dollars Or do you just say, 692 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: we know this is gonna come back down to earth 693 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: and well let's just ignore it and keep working. I 694 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: think the latter. I mean we we definitely ignored it 695 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: and keep working. Um. If you look at the price 696 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: a year ago, it was close to twenty. If you 697 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: look at the price to a it's it's a fifth 698 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: of that. UM. And yet over the last year, if 699 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: we think of like what we've achieved as a business 700 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: as Gemini in terms of building our company, We've launched 701 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: mobile apps. UM, We've launched a stable coin, We've added 702 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,760 Speaker 1: three new assets to the platform. Were about two hundred 703 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 1: employees strong. Uh, we're shipping two employees really, so this 704 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: is a not insubstantial company, and you're really thinking about 705 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: this as a longer term play, not hey, look how 706 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: much we're worth, hits a bid and let's go on vacation. Absolutely, 707 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,439 Speaker 1: I mean we we UM, we're trying. We we say 708 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: internally that we're building a centurion, a hundred year plus 709 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: company UM in the valley. People often talk about the unicorn, 710 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: and that's the company valued at a billion dollars. And 711 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,479 Speaker 1: our view is that, like, look, let's try and build 712 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: a sustainable business. If you look at the people in 713 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: the financial world that that we respect UM, like the 714 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 1: State Streets of the world, the Bank of New York, 715 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: these are two hundred year old plus institutions. So that's 716 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: what we're trying to build is longevity, and we think 717 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 1: the value, the valuation part will really take care of itself. 718 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: And so the last year for Gemini has really been remarkable. 719 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,720 Speaker 1: We've never sort of built so much, built so fast, 720 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: and done so many things. And when you look at 721 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: the price UM at a fifth of where it was, 722 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,439 Speaker 1: it just it kind of is a reminder how it's 723 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: it's just one metric and it often lags. It's it 724 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: can be obviously too too far ahead and too far behind. 725 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,359 Speaker 1: And and one of the anecdotal things I will say 726 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 1: is that UM, as the price was rushing up to 727 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,360 Speaker 1: twenty thousand, I was getting tons of texts and questions 728 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: from people like should I buy? Should I buy? And 729 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know. I mean, it feels like, 730 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 1: you know, there's a there's a lot of froth here. 731 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: But now I'm getting the questions again because people are 732 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: seeing it at four thousand and sitting there and it's 733 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: been there for I think we're going into like thirteen 734 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: month thirteen of the bear market. People are starting to 735 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,799 Speaker 1: say it's starting to look like, uh, that's interesting, Yeah, 736 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,840 Speaker 1: like cheap right. Um, but if you zoom out enough. 737 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 1: UM our view, at least with bitcoin is that is 738 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: a digital gold, and so um that thesis is the 739 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,959 Speaker 1: qualities that make gold valuable. If you break them down 740 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: um scarcity. For instance, bitcoin is actually fixed divisibility, portability, 741 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: bitcoins like sending email, uh, fungibility. So all of the 742 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,320 Speaker 1: characteristics that make gold valuable. Bitcoin has those characteristics that 743 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: either equals them equals gold or better better's gold, so 744 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 1: we call it gold. Two point oh and bitcoin's market 745 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 1: cap I haven't checked today, but let's say it's a 746 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars then golds at seven trillion. If it's 747 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: a better gold, it's got to get that high as 748 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: a market cap. So we think, uh, you know, bitcoin 749 00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: is better at being gold and gold, so therefore, uh 750 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: it it has a lot of room to appreciate. Blockchain 751 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: originally was touted as unhackable, and now we're starting to 752 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 1: see some articles about small hacks not into the wallets, 753 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: but to blockchain itself. Is that a genuine issue or 754 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: these just really little fringe situations that don't undercut the 755 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 1: main premise of blockchain. So a lot of the early 756 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 1: hacks were actually company hacks or entrepreneur failures. Uh, they 757 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: weren't failures of the bitcoin protocol, which has never been hacked. UM. 758 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: So there are smaller coins um that have had issues 759 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:46,280 Speaker 1: because they don't have a large mining community around them. UM. 760 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: So you know, I think that this stuff is overblown. 761 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 1: It makes good good headlines, but I don't think it 762 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: tells that all the full picture, just like price is 763 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: not the full picture. So I think you need like 764 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 1: dig deep and do your homework on this stuff. But 765 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: this space is here to stay. Cryptocurrency is not going away. 766 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,760 Speaker 1: It's going to power and re architect the future Internet. 767 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 1: People talk about Web one point oh two point out. 768 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,359 Speaker 1: We're on the um beginning of Web three point out, 769 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 1: so it's something you should totally learn more about and 770 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: take seriously. Can you guys stick around? I have a 771 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,760 Speaker 1: bunch more questions as we have been speaking to Cameron 772 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: and Tyler Winklevoss, founders of Gemini, a crypto exchange, as 773 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,799 Speaker 1: well as Harvard Connection and winkle Voss Capital. If you 774 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: enjoyed this conversation, be sure and come back for the 775 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 1: podcast Actors, where we keep the type rolling and continue 776 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: discussing all things crypto. We love your comments, feedback, end 777 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg 778 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,239 Speaker 1: dot net. Check out my daily column on Bloomberg dot 779 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: com slash Opinion. Follow me on Twitter at Rid Halts. 780 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,800 Speaker 1: I'm Battery Rihults. You're listening to Masters in Business on 781 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast, guys. Thank you so 782 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:21,640 Speaker 1: much for doing this. I've been really looking forward to 783 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,839 Speaker 1: chatting with you, and you have not disappointed. There are 784 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:30,279 Speaker 1: so many questions I did not get to um, and 785 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: they'll have to wait for another time because I have 786 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: to ask you my favorite questions that we ask all 787 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:40,319 Speaker 1: of our guests. UM. These are always in interesting and 788 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 1: revealing of people's um history and background and personality. So 789 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:49,360 Speaker 1: let me jump right into this. Tell us what is 790 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,880 Speaker 1: the makeyearin model of the first car you guys owned? 791 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: I think we shared a an SGV, a land Rover. 792 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,399 Speaker 1: I think that's right, first car, and you guys will 793 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: split We split it down the middle. You guys were 794 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,799 Speaker 1: living in Grantwich, Is that right? So you had a 795 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 1: really interesting up upbringing and I wanted to to ask 796 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,839 Speaker 1: you about that, but well, if we have time, we'll 797 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,319 Speaker 1: we'll circle back. So tell us the most important thing 798 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 1: people don't know about the Winklevoss twins. Um, So Tyler's 799 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,920 Speaker 1: right handed Cameron's left handed? Is really is that true? 800 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 1: That's it? Is that common amongst twins? Or is that 801 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:35,320 Speaker 1: relatively rare? So? I think that it's in identical twins 802 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: are mirror image. UM, and I think it's when the 803 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,240 Speaker 1: egg splits later. Right, That's quite fascinating. I had no 804 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,319 Speaker 1: no idea about that. UM. Who are some of your 805 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:50,360 Speaker 1: early mentors? You mentioned your dad who affected your career 806 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:57,360 Speaker 1: and your entrepreneurial desires. I think for sure. Parents, UM, 807 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 1: I would say early coaches were important. UM high school 808 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,319 Speaker 1: rowing coach James Megan, this irishman who really helped us 809 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,600 Speaker 1: explain the sport to us and help us fall in 810 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: love with it, UM and sort of believe in ourselves 811 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,919 Speaker 1: that we could achieve these things as kids in high school. UM. 812 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: So I'd say those are those are big ones early 813 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:26,400 Speaker 1: on that really helped, um, you know, affect the trajectory 814 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,800 Speaker 1: of of our later years. What what about you guys 815 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,960 Speaker 1: as venture capitalists and investors, who has influenced the way 816 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,520 Speaker 1: you think about that work and the way you put 817 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 1: money at risk? I think, well, our father is an entrepreneur, 818 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,560 Speaker 1: so I think we through osmosis sort of being in 819 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: that that household. Um. He worked with computers back in 820 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,880 Speaker 1: the sixties, prior to even monitors, when it was like 821 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,120 Speaker 1: punch card and is using a univact that the computer 822 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: I don't think it would even fit in in this 823 00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 1: floor of the studio was probably three times the size 824 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: of the studio. So we'd already always been around sort 825 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,359 Speaker 1: of technology and ideas and taking risks. And then I think, 826 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, I believe or not the sport of rowing. 827 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,640 Speaker 1: I feel like it's informed so much of how we think, UM, 828 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,359 Speaker 1: build building teams, UM, you know, day and day out, 829 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,879 Speaker 1: just consistency. UM. You know, it was a fifteen year 830 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,240 Speaker 1: journey for us. UM. When we stepped in the boat house, 831 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,560 Speaker 1: I don't think we thought we would be on you know, Olympians, 832 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 1: But fifteen years later, UM, we were. And it was 833 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: just a lot of work for you know, day and 834 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,719 Speaker 1: day out. UM. And I think that's most of you know, entrepreneurship. Uh. 835 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,080 Speaker 1: It's easy to look at the big numbers and the 836 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:40,719 Speaker 1: I p o s. But if you look at most 837 00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,160 Speaker 1: of these companies, they've been at it for uh well 838 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:48,040 Speaker 1: over a decade and just you know, plugging away. Quite interesting. 839 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: Tell us about some of your favorite books, be they 840 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,800 Speaker 1: investing or general interest fiction non fiction? What do you 841 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 1: guys like to read? So? I think Zero to one 842 00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:02,080 Speaker 1: is a great quick read. It's ter Teel's book on investing. 843 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:07,720 Speaker 1: There's a lot of counterintuitive ideas and examples in there. UM. 844 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,799 Speaker 1: It's I think it's something like eighty pages. It's a 845 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 1: really quick, straightforward read. UM. And then it really captures 846 00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,319 Speaker 1: the art of of startups and entrepreneurship. It's it's a 847 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,360 Speaker 1: really good quick way to understand how that world works, 848 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,719 Speaker 1: because you don't learn it in a classroom. Usually, you 849 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,280 Speaker 1: don't learn it in a liberal arts education. Uh certainly, 850 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: usually not in high school. So I think that's a 851 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 1: quick way to kind of get up on it. What else, 852 00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: what else do you guys read? So? I think snow 853 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,360 Speaker 1: Crash by Neil Stevenson is phenomenal. UM. I think it 854 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,600 Speaker 1: was written in the eighties and he UM pretty much 855 00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:49,560 Speaker 1: like UM depicts virtual reality UM in an amazing way. Uh. 856 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,239 Speaker 1: So that's a great, great book and just becoming more 857 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,279 Speaker 1: and more relevant by by the day. And then I 858 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,759 Speaker 1: think Kryptonomicon, UM, I knew you're gonna go there. Yeah, 859 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,880 Speaker 1: also by Stevenson by Stevenson, and it basically you know 860 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,800 Speaker 1: bitcoin is you're reading and you're like, this is bitcoin. 861 00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:09,920 Speaker 1: You know how incredible he this guy? He predicts VR 862 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:15,120 Speaker 1: and predicts UM bitcoin. So if people are decades in advance, 863 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:20,239 Speaker 1: not even like right before ahead like UM. And so 864 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 1: if you've read Ready Player one, it's sort of like 865 00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,799 Speaker 1: the newer version of snow Crash UM. But those are 866 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,080 Speaker 1: really fun, incredible, there's so much more than just like, 867 00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,399 Speaker 1: oh he predicts bitcoin and VR. But also I think 868 00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,600 Speaker 1: you're going to see this, um conversions of the two 869 00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 1: worlds of VR gaming and crypto and payments. UM, that's 870 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:43,920 Speaker 1: going to be fascinating to see play out. So these 871 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:45,839 Speaker 1: are great books to kind of go back to where 872 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 1: it all started. Quite interesting. Tell us about a time 873 00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:53,319 Speaker 1: you failed and what you learned from the experience. It's 874 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,600 Speaker 1: a great question. I mean, I think a lot of 875 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,480 Speaker 1: times when people think of failure, they think of some epic, 876 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, decision or thing that went wrong. And I think, um, certainly, 877 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,960 Speaker 1: you know, if you're in the game long enough, you're 878 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:07,960 Speaker 1: going to have those. UM. I think we sort of 879 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,759 Speaker 1: learned early on how to pick your partners wisely. UM. 880 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,839 Speaker 1: But I think you know, in the sport of rowing, uh, 881 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:16,880 Speaker 1: a lot of times you go out and you have 882 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,720 Speaker 1: a bad practice, UM, and you feel pretty bad about 883 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,080 Speaker 1: the performance, but um, it only lasted long until the 884 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,080 Speaker 1: next practice, and so you build this this you sort 885 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,760 Speaker 1: of live with failure in a way. UM. And most 886 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,200 Speaker 1: of you know, the Olympians and gold medalists that we 887 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,279 Speaker 1: know lost a lot more races than they won. So 888 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:40,720 Speaker 1: you really learned to embrace failure, to process it, um, 889 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,920 Speaker 1: and then just keep moving on and realize that you know, 890 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,319 Speaker 1: as you push forward, it's just going to be part 891 00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 1: of that that experience. UM. And I think the people 892 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,960 Speaker 1: who stay in the game, whether it's entrepreneurs or investors 893 00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,200 Speaker 1: through the long haul like they do well, it's the 894 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,719 Speaker 1: people that that sort of fail or or you know, 895 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,239 Speaker 1: leave after a year or two. Um, they kind of 896 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,560 Speaker 1: miss out on on all the other stuff. What do 897 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:10,080 Speaker 1: you guys do for fun? M hmm, that's a good question. Um, 898 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 1: everybody wants to wants to start a start up, and 899 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,000 Speaker 1: then um, when you get any you realize how much 900 00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:19,000 Speaker 1: work it is. Uh, there's not too much time for fun. 901 00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:23,520 Speaker 1: But if there's downtime. We've been doing some skiing lately. Uh, 902 00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:27,200 Speaker 1: really enjoy getting out in the mountain. The energy workouts. 903 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:33,040 Speaker 1: Very social, it's fun. Um. Love reading, love watching movies. Um, 904 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, simple things that just are sort of relaxing, 905 00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: seeing friends. Um. But but yeah, when you when you 906 00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,240 Speaker 1: start a company, it it definitely, Um, it's all consuming. 907 00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,759 Speaker 1: That the thing I would equate it to most And 908 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,920 Speaker 1: I don't have kids, but I imagine it's like having 909 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,600 Speaker 1: a family having kids. You don't just you know, check 910 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,839 Speaker 1: in from nine to five it's a seven thing that 911 00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,360 Speaker 1: you live with, and it's all encompassing. There's really it 912 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,600 Speaker 1: blurs between you know, work time and non work time. 913 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,840 Speaker 1: It's sort of like always there. I think that's a 914 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:11,440 Speaker 1: generational thing because the current generation or helicopter parents go 915 00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,920 Speaker 1: back thirty or forty years and the latch key generation 916 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 1: the parents would occasionally check in. But your point is 917 00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:23,800 Speaker 1: well made. So within crypto and or venture capital, what 918 00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,160 Speaker 1: are you most excited about? What do you think is 919 00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,600 Speaker 1: really the most interesting disruptive thing that's going to come 920 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:33,479 Speaker 1: out of those spaces. So I think crypto is gonna 921 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,880 Speaker 1: usher in web three point oh. Right now, we have 922 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: basically an Internet that's built up of a few centralized services, 923 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,480 Speaker 1: and I think we're gonna see sort of the decentralization 924 00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,319 Speaker 1: of many of these services UM and and users are 925 00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 1: going to realize that they should really be getting compensated 926 00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,920 Speaker 1: for their their content. Right now, we were all part 927 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:56,120 Speaker 1: of these social networks and we are the product, and 928 00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,359 Speaker 1: we're creating tons of content and not getting anything for 929 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,000 Speaker 1: it UM. So I think that there's going to be 930 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,520 Speaker 1: a huge shift UM in that direction, and cryptocurrency is 931 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,440 Speaker 1: going to be part of that solution. And ushering in 932 00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,400 Speaker 1: the web. Three point oh. And then what we're seeing 933 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,680 Speaker 1: is a lot of you know, it's building a brand 934 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:15,839 Speaker 1: these days, is it's really fasting because you can just 935 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,000 Speaker 1: go direct to consumer. You don't need the fixed costs 936 00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,680 Speaker 1: of a brick and mortar. Um. We're in one company 937 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,680 Speaker 1: called Dirty Lemon where literally you just order it through text. 938 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,040 Speaker 1: It's SMS. It's super simple, and they have a store 939 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,440 Speaker 1: uh downtown that's not even manned by any um individuals. 940 00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,600 Speaker 1: You you go by, there's a there's a camera, you 941 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,359 Speaker 1: you put in your order and you just take take 942 00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,960 Speaker 1: what you want. Um, it's truly automated. Um. And then 943 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,040 Speaker 1: there's lots of other brands that I think are gonna 944 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,239 Speaker 1: you know, innovate and then get scooped up by larger incumbents. 945 00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,080 Speaker 1: So um, it's a it's a really interesting time to 946 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,200 Speaker 1: be building brands and things like that. If a millennial 947 00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,520 Speaker 1: or a college student came up to you and said, 948 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:59,160 Speaker 1: I'm interested in filling the blank startups bench capital crypto, 949 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,000 Speaker 1: uh sort of advice would you give them? So? I 950 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,960 Speaker 1: think that the uh, the big piece of advice I 951 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,680 Speaker 1: would say is that whatever you choose to do, you 952 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,880 Speaker 1: should definitely look at crypto, but I feel like crypto 953 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,880 Speaker 1: that's fine, um, but you should be looking at the 954 00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,480 Speaker 1: minimum of a four year cycle. Um. We see in 955 00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,200 Speaker 1: our shop at Gemini that it takes about six months 956 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:22,960 Speaker 1: for an engineer to get up to speed and be 957 00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:27,480 Speaker 1: truly productive at that optimal level, and then you know, 958 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,080 Speaker 1: you it takes another six months to just sort of 959 00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,000 Speaker 1: learn and and and understand how the company were. Where 960 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,319 Speaker 1: the cold brew is all those things. You gotta know 961 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,839 Speaker 1: where the coffee is, right, um. And I think a 962 00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,920 Speaker 1: lot of times people they're the horizon that the patients 963 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,160 Speaker 1: isn't there, um, and they're looking to just sort of 964 00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,600 Speaker 1: switch in a lot of like quickly. And when we 965 00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,480 Speaker 1: look at like our you know, like historically we did. 966 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:51,920 Speaker 1: I mean, we were in the sport of rowing for 967 00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:56,120 Speaker 1: fifteen years and it wasn't until the eleventh year where 968 00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,400 Speaker 1: we thought, you know, hey, maybe we could potentially make 969 00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,719 Speaker 1: the Olympics. Um. And it took you know, it wasn't 970 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't months, it wasn't it was over a decade. 971 00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,040 Speaker 1: So I think, you know, what we've learned is like 972 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,400 Speaker 1: patients is huge. Um. We've only been in cryptocurrency, and 973 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,799 Speaker 1: I say, only for five years. Most people would think 974 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,040 Speaker 1: that's a lifetime, but it's sort of like dog years cryptocurrency. 975 00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, um, but like how long when when this 976 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,760 Speaker 1: is mid two thousand's right, so it's not like there's 977 00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,320 Speaker 1: a fifty years totally and and a lot of people 978 00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,920 Speaker 1: they look at the crypto winner right now and they say, wow, 979 00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,120 Speaker 1: this is like so bad. And honestly, most of the 980 00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,840 Speaker 1: time we've been in it, there's been winter Gemini. The 981 00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,120 Speaker 1: first two years of Gemini. Uh, people weren't thinking about crypto. 982 00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,440 Speaker 1: They didn't really you know, weren't paying attention, and all 983 00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,080 Speaker 1: of a sudden boom, they're paying attention. But I think 984 00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,880 Speaker 1: patients overall, if that's the t l d R of 985 00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:54,480 Speaker 1: my comment, I mean, there's such a dearth of engineers, 986 00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,800 Speaker 1: and then if you go to security engineers or like 987 00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:01,240 Speaker 1: infrastructure engineers, it's even harder to find them. So if 988 00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,960 Speaker 1: you want job security, like become an engineer and learn 989 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:08,479 Speaker 1: how to talk to machines. Um. But I also think 990 00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:13,640 Speaker 1: the with that movement um being able to think creatively, 991 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:18,760 Speaker 1: being like artistic and following things, that's sort of um 992 00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,400 Speaker 1: foster that in you is going to be super important 993 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:25,160 Speaker 1: because you're gonna have AI, You're gonna have um machines 994 00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,080 Speaker 1: and all this automation. Um, but machines aren't good at 995 00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:33,360 Speaker 1: being creative. Humans are so really tapping into the creativity 996 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,840 Speaker 1: of of being human in the human spirit. Um. And 997 00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:40,280 Speaker 1: understanding how to like how to intersect with machines is 998 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:44,760 Speaker 1: going to be like paramount to navigating the future. And 999 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,720 Speaker 1: our final question, what do you know about the world 1000 00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,320 Speaker 1: of investing, the adventure capital, crypto or what have you 1001 00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,480 Speaker 1: that you wish you knew ten fifteen years ago when 1002 00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,480 Speaker 1: you were first getting your legs under you. Hm hmm, 1003 00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:01,680 Speaker 1: that's a good question. Um, well I always wish I 1004 00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,560 Speaker 1: had a crystal ball. Um, I think you know. But 1005 00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:10,320 Speaker 1: what Cameron said before is patients is so big. Um. 1006 00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,959 Speaker 1: Rome wasn't built in a day startups when we built 1007 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,440 Speaker 1: in the day. We we talk about like, um, the 1008 00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:20,520 Speaker 1: timelines of building a company in the nineteen thirties. Uh, 1009 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,160 Speaker 1: we're so much more longer long than the than the 1010 00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,280 Speaker 1: ones today. Um. But whether you're investing like you can 1011 00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:29,280 Speaker 1: have a long term vision, but if you don't have 1012 00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:32,720 Speaker 1: the patience or the conviction to wait it out, and 1013 00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,960 Speaker 1: if you're just quartered a quarter or day to day. Um, 1014 00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,160 Speaker 1: then you can get pinched. Um. So you know, the 1015 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,800 Speaker 1: markets are are rational and efficient in the long run, 1016 00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:44,520 Speaker 1: but in the short run they're not. And the same 1017 00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,520 Speaker 1: thing as an athlete. You're just not going to make 1018 00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:50,600 Speaker 1: become a different athlete like overnight. And so I think 1019 00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:54,080 Speaker 1: the wisdom the common sense of sort of patients get 1020 00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:58,040 Speaker 1: rich slowly is another thing I like to think about. Um, 1021 00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:03,640 Speaker 1: all of that, you know, true value type investor mentality. Um, 1022 01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, I think that's super super important. Um, it's 1023 01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:10,920 Speaker 1: easy to forget. But you know there's also I love 1024 01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:12,840 Speaker 1: to saying, if you want it bad, you get it bad. 1025 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,640 Speaker 1: Don't like I think the Navy seals don't say like, 1026 01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:19,080 Speaker 1: don't run to your death. Um. I think patients and 1027 01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:23,120 Speaker 1: just having a long a long term long ball type 1028 01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:29,600 Speaker 1: mentality is pretty much any everything in investing, entrepreneurship and 1029 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:34,880 Speaker 1: life quite quite fascinating. We have been speaking with Cameron 1030 01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:40,800 Speaker 1: and Tyler Winklevoss of Winklevoss Capital and Gemini a crypto exchange. 1031 01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,960 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this conversation, well look up an intran 1032 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,760 Speaker 1: down an inch on Apple, iTunes, Stitcher, Overcast, Bloomberg dot com, 1033 01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,160 Speaker 1: wherever your final podcasts are sold, and you can see 1034 01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,840 Speaker 1: any of the other two hundred and fifty or so 1035 01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:59,360 Speaker 1: such conversations we've had in the past. We love your comments, 1036 01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:03,240 Speaker 1: feedback and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast 1037 01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,400 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. I would be remiss if I 1038 01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:08,760 Speaker 1: did not thank the crack staff that helps us put 1039 01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:14,040 Speaker 1: together these conversations each week. Medina Parwana is my producer. 1040 01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:18,479 Speaker 1: Taylor Riggs is our booker slash producer. Attica val Bron 1041 01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,720 Speaker 1: is our project manager. Michael bat Nick is our head 1042 01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:25,720 Speaker 1: of research. I'm Barry Ritolts. You've been listening to Masters 1043 01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:27,720 Speaker 1: in Business on Bloomberg Radio.