WEBVTT - The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.920 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:16.840 and there's Chuck and Dave is here with us today 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:20.159 and we're all just quietly holding hands. Now we have 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.640 to stop and come into the real world and start 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:27.120 talking to you find people for this episode of Stuff 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:31.720 You Should Know. My my lip got caught in my 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:33.760 tooth when I said you, and it came out a 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:38.400 little weird. It's funny. My daughter finally lost her first tooth, 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.120 and it's you know, it's changing the way she talks. 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:43.840 She's got a little funny little lisp and she's always 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:45.960 took tongue in on it. And I'm like, I'm gonna 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:47.440 be there with you soon. You know, I gotta get 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:52.400 this front one redone right, So yeah, I'm gonna wait 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.959 until right before we have live shows so I can 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.920 pull that front tooth again. Nice. That'll be a special 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.680 treat for everybody, especially me. Oh, you were used to it. 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.720 I really was, um. But the worst was when when 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:09.959 you had that little case that you would put it 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:12.720 in and that they had event so the smell could 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:16.600 waft out of it. Yeah. I gave up after the 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:18.640 first one on wearing that thing. I was just like, 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.839 who cares? Yeah, No, it's great. It was very liberating. 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.320 It was as is this podcast episode. I think this 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:28.679 is going to be a good one, because Chuck, I've 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:30.880 been wanting to talk about this for a really long time. 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:32.880 This is one of those things that you like hear 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.200 about and you're like, wait what that That can't be right, 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:38.080 And then you read a little more about it and 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.600 a little more and it just keeps getting worse and worse. 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:43.480 But yet it's. Um, it's just kind of one of 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:48.280 the like a landmark study in the field of psychology 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:52.720 that we're talking about today. Yeah, the Three Christs of 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:57.120 hip Salanti and I studied this. I remember this from 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:01.440 studying it in psychology class in college and got kind 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:05.000 of into it at the time. And um, you started 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.760 wearing like three Cristi shirts and stuff. I followed them 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:13.040 on tour. It was great. I don't for some reason, 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.760 I thought I read the book, But I don't think 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:17.280 I read the book. I think we just covered the 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.799 book in college and in the psychology class, Like, I 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:22.600 don't think they made you read the whole book that 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:24.760 we basically just kind of went over it. But I've 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.200 been pretty fascinated for years, and uh, you know, eventually, 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:30.640 when Hollywood made a movie about it four years ago, 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:35.399 I was excited and even paid to rent that thing. 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:42.280 That pretty good. I watched the first half hour and realized, Man, 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.280 they've just sort of disneyfied this thing and it's not good. 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.720 Although our buddy Kevin Pollock isn't it and he's always great. Hey, 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:55.359 that guy can steal a scene better than the Hamburglar. Yeah. 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:57.920 The movie, uh, just so everyone knows, is called The 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.480 Three crist of Hipslani from John Abnett, starring Richard Gear 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:05.639 as the name changed doctor and then the Three Christs. 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:09.240 In the movie, you're portrayed by Peter dink Lidge. Uh. 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:13.520 One of my favorite actors, Walton Goggins. Yeah, he's great, man, 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:15.400 I went back. I told you I was watching The 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:19.720 Shield again. That guy was amazing in that. In that yeah, yeah, 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.760 he played one of the main characters. He's just the best. 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.640 And then, uh, what's the guy's named Bradley Whitford, who's 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:29.000 also great. Everyone is good. It just it's one of 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:33.520 those movies that they I think just over sanitized and 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.320 should have made a documentary instead. M hmm. But they 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:39.440 didn't and that's okay, and we don't have to talk 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:43.000 about that movie ever again. Now then we have instead, 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:45.200 I think we should start by giving a little background 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:48.480 and the guy whose idea the three crist of Ipsilani 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.280 experiment was, and it was a researcher, a psychologist, a 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:58.720 social psychologist, your favorite named Milton row keach Um and 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:03.920 Milton Rokey, had some ideas about what it was to 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:06.680 to make up an identity, what made up a person's 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.400 sense of who they were, and he basically had broken 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.880 it out into beliefs, a series of different kinds of beliefs, 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:15.520 which we we'll kind of talk about here. They're a 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:19.560 little more. But there's this anecdote that's frequently passed around 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.920 that kind of like lays the early groundwork for this 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:27.320 idea that that someone's belief in who they are could 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.400 conceivably be challenged. And it came one night when he 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:32.960 was sitting around the dinner table with his wife and 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.840 his two young daughters, um and he accidentally, in like 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.880 a moment of frustration telling them to settle down at dinner, 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.559 called one another by their opposite names. And the girls 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:46.680 just thought that was like the funniest thing that ever heard. 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:52.760 At first, yes, was that is that? Mike? You? Yeah? 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:54.800 I even stuck my finger up like all right now 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.119 you but you can't see it, can you know? Because 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:59.719 we just listened to each other. Uh yeah at first, 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:01.880 and it was a little fun game. And then I 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.839 think the five year old even said, you know, this 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.080 is just a game, right dad, And Dad said no, 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:11.719 it's real, and uh, I hear him saying it in 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.760 that voice, and you know, pretty soon they were begging 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.920 for him to stop. And I can verify that this 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.520 is a thing I've been I think his a parent. 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.000 Sometimes you'll call your kid by another name as a joke, 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.880 like I know I've done it, like called uh my 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.680 daughter my dog's name. If she's like she'll come into 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:31.360 the room and like bark or something as a joke, 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.480 say oh, you're Nico, and she'll say, yeah, I'm Nico, 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.240 and then for a few minutes later, I'm like, hey, 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:39.920 come here, Nico, and then it's fun for about five 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.760 minutes and then she's like, no, I am not. So 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.080 there is very much a thing to a child's identity, 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.000 especially from their parents, where they kind of get their 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:54.479 identity and seek their identity. When that has challenged it, 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.040 it is very quickly kind of traumatic. Yeah, he learned 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.360 a couple of things that one, you can very quickly 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.359 challenge somebody, or you can very very quickly push someone 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.520 to a state of like trauma or anxiety or panic, 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:11.400 even by just by simply challenging their identity by calling 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:16.839 them the wrong name purposefully. He also write, yeah, I 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.480 know Jerry, each other, Jerry, I think it would cancel. 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:22.479 Let you they're out do it one more time and 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:28.360 I will crumble, okay, Jerry Chifford. But he also learned, like, Okay, 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:30.719 there's consequences to this. You can't take somebody with a 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.000 with a well formed, well developed sense of identity and 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:37.440 and and I guess a normal sense of identity and 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.200 push push them to the edge, mess around with that 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.640 sense of identity. There's there's harmful consequences to that. So 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.680 he's started to kind of explore this, and like I 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:52.480 was saying, like he had broken everybody's um belief system 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.880 into a handful of different types of beliefs. And the 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:59.080 belief that you are who you are, which is what 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.599 we call our identity. He ascribed to primitive beliefs which 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:07.120 are just like basic truths and the same neighborhood as Um. 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.840 You know, I'm wearing a headphone on one ear and 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:11.800 I have the other one behind my head right now, 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:15.040 I have brown hair. My name is Josh, your chuck, Like, 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:19.440 just basic truths of the universe that anyone you talked 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:23.040 to is going to generally agree with. Right, That's where 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.520 the personality comes from. Yeah, and that that is the 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:32.000 very bedrock and foundation of how we think about ourselves. 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.320 And he already saw messing with that can be bad, 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.360 so he was like, hey, why not take it a 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.920 step further right, right, So what I was saying a 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:44.680 minute ago with like how we saw that there's consequences 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.239 to messing with uh sane person, I just made air quotes. 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:51.640 If you couldn't tell from my intonation, Um, messing with 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.680 a sane person's identity, you can't really do that. But 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:59.040 this is the mid century in America, and there's a 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:01.520 whole group of people that you can do basically whatever 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.360 you want to with as far as mental stuff goes. 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.040 And that were people who are suffering from mental conditions 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.200 who were locked up in state institutions at the time, 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.760 and so row Keech came up with this idea like, Okay, 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:17.280 wait a minute, what if I what if I got 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:22.880 my hands on some mentally unstable people, some possibly diagnosed people, 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.280 and and messed with their sense of identity, took their 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:30.240 delusion and challenged it. That could be okay, because hey, 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.439 their lives are basically useless anyway, I'm paraphrasing row Keech here, 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:37.600 and if if something does come of it, there's a 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:41.319 good chance that it could be positive instead. So let 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.800 me have it, let let me add them basically. Yeah, 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.679 there's a quote here from the book. And big thanks 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:48.520 to Dave Ruse for putting this one together. I know 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:50.720 this was a it's a tough one to wrangle, but 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.839 he did a great job. Here's the quote from the book. 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.560 Because it is not feasible to study such phenomena with 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.079 normal people, he didn't even put in quotes. Uh, it 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:03.040 seemed reasonable to focus on delusional systems of belief in 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:05.680 the hope that and subjecting them to strain that would 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.800 be little to lose and hopefully a great deal to gain. 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:14.480 And like, I read that sentence and I'm like, stop there, dude, right, yeah, 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:18.720 that's like the perfect motto for the misguided intentions of 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.920 the study. Yeah. Yeah, he was like indicted himself with 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.880 that one quote exactly just right out of the gate. 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.840 And I read this some commentary magazine article from nineteen 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.280 sixty four by um Oh. I can't remember who it was. 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:34.000 I don't have it pulled up, but he's a famous 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.800 poet at the time, and he was basically saying, like, 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:41.120 you know, surely Rogue Keeach, the guy who's writing the book, well, 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.400 it understands that Rogue Keeach, the character this doctor, it's 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.920 like out of his mind, and he likes he's like 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.559 slowly realizing, oh wait, this guy, even the author of 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.520 the book, has no idea that the doctor character who's 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:56.040 himself has has any idea just how unethical this is. 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.720 And that's a that's a that's a great example of it, 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:02.400 that demonstrates it right off the bat. Yeah, there's, um, 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:03.959 there's I don't know if you listen to the Snap 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.559 judgment on this, did you hear that? No? It was 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.560 good Snap, you know, great podcast or public radio program 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:17.520 turned podcasts. Sure, I've heard public radio before. I used 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:18.880 to I used to listen to a lot more of it. 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.880 Same here, um Fresh Air, I always still love fresh Air, 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:24.720 but I just it's one of those things where I 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.120 just bulk it up and then, like when I'm painting 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:29.160 a room in our house, I listened to just fresh 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:30.960 Air the whole time or something, you know what I mean. Yeah, 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:32.840 what is Terry Gross gonna have us on? Do we 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.960 need to get to twenty years? Would that do it? Yeah? 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.600 I wouldn't even begin to bother her until we hit 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.320 twenty years and then maybe yeah, and then we just 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:47.880 started asking basically, hi, Terry hi. Uh. So in that 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:52.160 snap judgment um, they pointed out that he uh that 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.080 Rokich actually read a Harper's article about two women who 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.079 believe they were the Virgin Mary, and that put an 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.200 idea into his head. And I know that in his 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.559 book he also talked about being inspired a little bit 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.880 by some some stuff that Voltaire wrote about it. Right, Yeah, 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.360 there was a man in the seventeenth century that Voltaire 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:14.760 wrote about named Simone Morin who was deranged in the 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.240 parlance at the time, and he thought that he was 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.400 Christ and so he was locked up in a madhouse 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:25.640 and he um met in that place in the institutional asylum. 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.600 Another man who thought he was Christ and Simone Morin 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:33.320 saw just how how like crazy this guy seemed and 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.280 was like, wait a minute, maybe I'm crazy. And in 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.640 confronting this other guy who claimed to have the same identity, 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.880 he regained his sanity to a certain extent, and unfortunately 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.240 he relapsed and ended up being burned at the stake 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:50.720 for heresy. But there was a moment there where he 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.880 had kind of like been knocked out of his delusion. 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.839 That's a huge deal. Like if you if you if 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.600 you have schizophrenia or delusionable leaves, like if your mental 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.920 disorder um is to the degree where you hold delusions. 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.760 And we should say a delusion is not like, you know, 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.200 a made up belief, for you know, you made your 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.840 belief up, Like this is what you think is real. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.240 It is real to you, and you will defend it 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.559 when it's challenged. So the idea that somebody who was 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.880 delusional could be knocked out of their delusion by being 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.280 confronted with somebody else who had the same delusion, that 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.240 is groundbreaking. And I can see why roe Keach was like, 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.839 there we go, that's it, there's my there's my methodology 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:37.520 for this or for this this experiment. Yeah, and I'm 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.439 sure he was, you know, he was turned on a 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.120 little bit about the idea of three Christs or however 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.360 many Christs he could find. Well, I mean not even 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:50.199 like that, you know what I mean though, but a 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.240 social he was probably like, you know, this would make 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:58.960 for a pretty uh mind blowing experiment plus a great 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.920 book title. It's one of great understated book titles of 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.960 all time. Yeah, it's not like the three Richard Nixon's 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.640 of his Bilanti No, and I mean like Ippsilanti is 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.560 like this. It's just this this town outside of ann 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.160 Arbor where where you know, that's where one of the 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:18.840 mental asylums were in um, in Michigan at the time. Um. 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:20.920 And and it's just like you know, it might as 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:25.319 well be Walla, Walla or Lackawanna, or it's just an 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.959 unusual name in a town that doesn't really have much 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.120 of a claim to anything, you know what I mean. Yeah, sure, 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.920 all three of those towns are like, is he insulting 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:36.880 all of us or none of us? No, No, it's 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:41.040 not an insult. It's just it's just, um, it's not 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:42.960 like a hot happen in town. And it's been like 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.400 the Three crist of New York that loses something or 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:52.920 the price of London. It's just a rather generally unremarkable place, guys, Ippslani. 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:54.760 If you live there and you don't know that it's 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.040 generally unremarkable. I'm sorry to be breaking this news to you. 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:00.880 I don't mean it in a in a unkind way 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.839 at all. I know you don't. Uh, And I think 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.160 generally back then, that's where a lot of these institutions 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.520 were because they needed like lots of land. And uh 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.679 so let's just leave it at that, and okay, maybe 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.800 take a break, okay to let everybody really stew on 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.360 what I said. We'll take a break and we'll find 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:49.680 out how he found his his patients right after this, alright, 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:53.080 so we're back. Uh. There were twenty five thousand total 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.760 patients in the system in Michigan State, uh, at Michigan 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.360 State hospitals. And he went all all of these, you know, 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:05.200 he sort of tried to call them down two uh 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.680 too ideally to Christ figures. Uh. He found a man 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:12.240 who thought he was Cinderella. He found it Mrs God uh, 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.200 and then about six people who thought they were Christ. 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:20.240 And three of them were really into this idea and 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.760 really consistent with their belief that they were Jesus uh. 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.040 And two of them happened to be at Hippsilanti. So 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:28.360 he was like, this is perfect, I'll just transfer the 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.120 third end and we'll get going. Yeah. And so these 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.760 guys being inmates of the state at a time where yeah, 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:40.640 Ipsilanti had like four thousand people, four thousand patients in 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.000 just this one institution. Yeah, it's a and if you 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.760 were already like on the margins society and then moved 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.040 into a place where you're with four thousand other people 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.440 on the margins of society, it's a really good place 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.560 to get lost, to not get any real help. And 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.040 so one of the things that that was um was 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:04.320 part of this this experiment design is to make participating 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:08.240 in these discussions this group of these three Christs as 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.200 attractive to these three men as possible. So they were 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:14.120 moved toward d twenty three. They were given their own 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.120 private day room to eat in, to sleep or not sleeping, 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:20.240 but to hang out in away from everybody else. They 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.840 got some like place to stretch out and to have 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.680 some company. They got a lot of attention, a lot 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:31.400 of perks. Like basically their lives were changed in like 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.560 incalculable ways by being part of the study. And so 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.160 when they say, like, these were voluntary meetings and these 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:41.680 men were voluntary members of the study, that's that's definitely true. 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.520 They were. They were voluntary participants. But the perks on 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.280 offer were just so amazing. They were like you would 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.560 you could not turn down, you know, participating in some 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:56.280 degree exactly. So they were willing participants, uh, insofar as yeah, 0:16:56.320 --> 0:17:00.520 they got these great perks worth throwning out. So he 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.680 changed the names of the guys. Uh, to protect their 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.720 families and to protect them to some degree. But um, 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.359 we should go over sort of the bios of the 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.280 three men. Um should we say who played them in 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.159 the movies? Willot help people? I don't think so, Okay, 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:22.360 I don't want to disparage those great actors names again. Well, 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.040 I mean the acting, they did a good job. It 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.800 was just the material. They're all great actors, you know. Yeah, 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.000 I know, it's just when you write, I don't want 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:31.960 to call out the script writer. But it wasn't that good. 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:36.480 So let me ask you this sause I didn't see 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:38.960 the movie, was it like? And I loved the fact 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.800 that they made a movie about Freddie Mercury and the 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.639 other members of Queen. But was it like in the 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:50.760 um in in the movie what was the name of 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:54.720 that movie, the the Queen movie. That's what I called. 0:17:54.720 --> 0:18:00.240 It's okay, that's right. Do you remember like every time him, 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.719 like Freddie Mercury did something brilliant, they would have Brian 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.640 May they do a pan in close up of him 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:11.000 just looking like in awe and astonished. And that's maybe 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.480 pushing it doing that once in a movie, but they 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.560 did that every like fifteen or twenty minutes. Was it 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.040 kind of like that same sentiment. It wasn't so much 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.320 that And again only watched the first act before I 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.880 realized it was just it was just really sanitized and 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:33.200 like a feel good type of thing. Sounds similar, Yeah, right, exactly. 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.760 This is not a This is not a feel good story. 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.680 I wonder if it was performance. Aren't you accidentally stumbled upon? 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:40.480 I mean that was there was some tough stuff in there. 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:43.000 It's not like it was completely like, hey, this is great, 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.400 but it kind of reeked of like an Awakenings kind 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.120 of thing, and I like to waken I got it, alright, Alright, 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.360 I liked Awakenings too, But it sounds like what you're 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.960 describing as more along the lines of the Greatest Showman, 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.800 like that kind of sanitization. I didn't see that, okay, 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.760 did you no? But he did that episode just tearing 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.560 it apart. Yeah, we hadn't even seen it. We're comfortable 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:08.439 doing that at times. So the first guy was in 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:13.080 his late fifties, Joseph Cassel fifty eight. He had been 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.800 in the hospital for about twenty years and was Canadian 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.679 born and raised in Quebec. And he was named after 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:25.360 his after Josephine, his female relative in his family named 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:29.199 Joseph And I think the the big takeaway from his 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:34.840 childhood was that it was not good very abusive father, UM, 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:38.239 very quick tempered man who abused his mom, and his 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.280 mom actually died while giving birth to her ninth kid, 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:43.800 and so he had a rough go of it from 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:47.320 the beginning. I think his name actually was Josephine as well, 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:51.159 and he went by Joseph. So he he wanted to 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:52.919 be a writer. He I think, did you say he 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:56.720 was fifty eight at the time, Yeah, okay, and um 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:01.440 he uh did not really take to working outside of 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.520 the house. Um. He and his wife, UM did not 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.280 have a very like good relationship. Necessarily, he didn't want kids. 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:12.199 She did. They ended up having three daughters, and he 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.200 later on came to believe that um they were not 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.240 his children after all, and that that may have been 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:20.879 correct Um. But then things started to take kind of 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.760 a turn for the worse, and that Um, he started 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:26.800 to become really paranoid. He started to accuse people of 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:29.560 poisoning his food. He became a bit of a hoarder, 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:33.679 especially with books, and um probably the greatest crime a 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.400 man could commit in the mid century America. He did 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:39.800 not want to work, so that was basically that he 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.480 ended up um getting sent to uh An asylum in 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:48.800 Canada and then onto Ipsilani eventually. And he had been 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:53.760 Um been in Ipsilani for I think about twenty years, 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:55.639 or at least in and out of the hospital system 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.280 for about twenty years. And for about ten of those 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.160 years he had been he had cited that he was 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:05.040 he was God or Jesus Christ or both. Yeah, And 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:07.639 by the time he got around to Rokey Each or 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.960 Roke Each found him, he was in a pretty bad state. 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.600 After those twenty years, he had about half of his 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:17.439 teeth left in his mouth. He was still hoarding books, 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:22.359 carrying around books everywhere and when you know, when asked 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.040 who he was, he said his name was Joseph, and 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:29.560 he said that I am God, and I guess Rokeach said, well, 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:35.080 you'll do just fine, very splendid. Um. Yeah, So Joseph, 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.080 despite you know, the his inability to take care of 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:41.360 himself and you know, um, the fact that he hoarded 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:44.080 in all of that, he was a very sharp person. 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:47.399 So yeah, remember remember to keep that in mind. Like 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:49.600 that he was. He was very sharp and a good 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:53.119 writer as well. Clyde um and these are these men's 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.920 names were changed. Clyde Benson. He was seventy, he'd been 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:01.359 hospitalized for the last seventeen years. He was in pretty 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:05.119 rough shape, he really was. And Rokeach definitely starts to 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:08.640 recognize that pretty quickly after meeting Clyde and ends up 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:12.320 almost letting him just stay in the group even though 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:16.679 he's not really participating any longer. But um, Clyde was 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:21.240 apparently raised in an overprotected manner and didn't really learn 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:23.720 how to make his own decisions and kind of ended 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:28.160 up stunted as a result. Um, which you can make 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:31.000 your way through life like that if you if you 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.679 want to, but he ended up turning to alcohol and 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:39.280 became a really hardcore alcoholic to where it was starting 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:44.280 to wreck his life. Um. And apparently that came into 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:51.960 um collision with a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia at some point, right, yeah, 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.920 And you know, it seems like the drinking was the UM. 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.119 Anytime you have an undiagnosed condition like this and you 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:01.800 you pour alcohol, was him on top of it or 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:04.200 any kind of you know, drug addiction, it's gonna it's 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:08.000 just gonna be even worse. And eventually he was arrested 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:12.320 for public drunkenness. Uh. It was a pretty violent arrest 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:14.760 and in jail he was violent, and he was saying 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:18.000 he was Jesus Christ, that he was God, and that 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:22.480 he was reborn through his first wife, Shirley. I believe 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:25.320 she had passed away and he did get remarried. Um 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:27.880 and it was surely the queen of heaven. And at 0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:30.719 this point they committed him to a mental hospital when 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:34.200 he was fifty three where he got that diagnosis, and 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:38.119 he was he was the one that was easily the 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:42.960 most far gone and tough, toughest to reach and sort 0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:46.159 of walked around mumbling. He also didn't have many, if 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:50.600 any of his teeth and uh, but occasionally would like 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:53.199 still had that violence in him where he would have 0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:56.000 these sort of violent outbursts but then kind of calmed 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:58.719 down again. Yeah, and when he did, he was very 0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:01.720 direct into the point. And um, by, I don't think 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:04.560 he was actually physically violent, was he? I don't think so. 0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:07.400 I think it just could be scary at times. Right, 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:09.879 So he would say things like I am him. See 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:13.320 now I understand that, like that was the extent of 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:15.720 how he would explain that he was God and he 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:17.400 didn't need it to be challenged, and if you did 0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:19.560 try to challenge it, he would just shut you down 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:23.000 kind of thing in a very um yeah, like you said, 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:27.400 kind of a scary way. So Leon was perhaps one 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:29.840 of the saddest of the three cases, and that he 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:33.040 was had only been hospitalized for about five years. He 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:36.360 was younger, he was thirty eight years old, and he 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:39.919 was um the the snap judgment is great because they 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:44.840 had his two initial graduate assistance on, Richard Bonnier and 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:49.280 Ron Hoppy, so like real firsthand experience on the podcast, 0:24:49.359 --> 0:24:51.800 and they were saying that he was the one that 0:24:52.720 --> 0:24:54.680 broke their heart the most because he was the one 0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:59.359 that most likely could have been rehabilitated, and uh, it 0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:02.479 just tore them up that they and they liked him 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:05.520 a lot. He was a real personable guy and what 0:25:05.640 --> 0:25:08.040 it was very engaging with his stories and they really 0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:10.240 thought that they could have helped him had it not 0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:13.600 been uh, you know, in part by what happened with Rokeiach, 0:25:14.240 --> 0:25:16.600 which is sad because that means that Rokeiach made things 0:25:16.760 --> 0:25:19.000 much much worse for these people. And that's something to 0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:21.240 really understand. That there were three men who were living, 0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:25.520 you know, their delusional lives in this statemental hospital, but 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:29.520 they were generally unmolested until they were they were dragged 0:25:29.520 --> 0:25:33.080 into this study and messed with like in ways that 0:25:33.119 --> 0:25:35.480 you just don't do to other people, you know, and 0:25:35.520 --> 0:25:39.080 that their lives probably were worse, far worse than they 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:42.000 would have been had they never met Milton Rokey. Yeah. 0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:46.719 So Leon's deal was his mother was um almost certainly 0:25:46.760 --> 0:25:51.639 schizophrenic as well and had delusions, religious delusions. So he 0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:55.400 was raised in the household with these uh with basically 0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:59.919 a religious fanatic, and uh that impacted him from the 0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:03.119 very beginning. Of course, he was ended up diagnosed with 0:26:03.160 --> 0:26:07.439 schizophrenia as well. But growing up, and I mean in 0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:09.919 that kind of environment, definitely, I think led to the 0:26:10.000 --> 0:26:13.800 Christ thing for sure. Yeah, And he had like there 0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:16.280 was a time where he was living a normal life. 0:26:16.280 --> 0:26:19.280 He served in World War two, UM, he worked at 0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:23.520 different jobs back in Detroit. UM, he tried to go 0:26:23.600 --> 0:26:26.200 to college. He was trying to make a life for himself. 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:29.520 But he UM suffered from fatigue, which I looked up 0:26:29.600 --> 0:26:33.439 is apparently a really tough co morbidity with UM psychotic 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:38.440 disorders UM, and it's like got a terrible positive feedback 0:26:38.480 --> 0:26:41.920 where you know, the more tired you get, the worshire 0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:44.320 disorder is, and the worship disorder is, the harder it 0:26:44.359 --> 0:26:47.399 can be to sleep, and it's just not good. So 0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:50.520 he had that, and then he also started hearing voices himself, 0:26:51.160 --> 0:26:53.880 UM that we're telling him that he was Jesus Christ. 0:26:54.320 --> 0:26:56.840 And that didn't really jibe very well with his mother's 0:26:56.880 --> 0:27:00.679 own religious fanaticism because he saw that she was, you know, 0:27:00.800 --> 0:27:04.720 worshiping these other what he considered idols. And he went 0:27:04.760 --> 0:27:08.880 on um a bit of a violent tear once removing 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:11.280 all of the all the pictures of the saints and 0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:13.720 breaking all of the figurines and all that stuff in 0:27:13.760 --> 0:27:17.040 demanding that his mother worshiped him as Jesus Christ and 0:27:17.119 --> 0:27:20.800 threatening that is she didn't, he would strangle her. Um. 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:23.040 And so that was enough to get him locked up 0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:25.000 for good. He'd already been locked up one time for 0:27:25.040 --> 0:27:27.919 a brief period, and then about six months after that 0:27:27.960 --> 0:27:31.440 he was locked up um from then until the time 0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:34.119 that he met Milton row Keach. And that was Waldon 0:27:34.119 --> 0:27:40.359 Coggins Man. So he uh, he went by not Leon, 0:27:40.400 --> 0:27:42.960 and again Leon was a fake name that Rokeach gave 0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:46.760 him for the book. But um he went by Dr 0:27:46.840 --> 0:27:52.120 Domino Dominorum at rex razerum, simplest Christianius, purest mentalist doctor, 0:27:52.800 --> 0:27:55.520 which is Latin for lord of lords, king of kings, 0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:59.239 simple Christian boy, psychiatrist. But he asked everyone to call 0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:03.399 him Rex for short, and they said thanks sure. And 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:06.080 he was he was, like you said, like the most 0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:09.240 probably the most personable. He like Joseph, he was very 0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:12.520 sharp too, but also like from a very um, a 0:28:12.640 --> 0:28:18.200 very early stage, he saw quite clearly what roe Keats 0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:19.840 was trying to do, and he thought that it was 0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:24.760 morally repugnant um that that it was not a nice 0:28:24.800 --> 0:28:26.800 thing to do to somebody that you shouldn't mess with 0:28:26.840 --> 0:28:29.280 people like that, and he said as much multiple times 0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:32.760 throughout the study. Yeah, so this is when he hires 0:28:32.800 --> 0:28:35.480 those two grad assistance, is when he finds the guys 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:41.200 gets this experiment going in earnest and um, you know, 0:28:41.640 --> 0:28:44.840 his hypothesis was that if I can have these three 0:28:44.880 --> 0:28:48.959 men confront one another about them being the real Christ, 0:28:49.440 --> 0:28:53.480 that it could rock them into what he saw as 0:28:53.560 --> 0:28:57.040 reality and uh and get them out of these delusions. 0:28:57.120 --> 0:29:00.920 And that didn't happen. Well, it didn't happen at all 0:29:00.960 --> 0:29:04.360 through the experiment, but initially they what they did was 0:29:04.400 --> 0:29:08.200 they really dug in and uh. They each had their 0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:10.240 own way of doing so, but they each dug in 0:29:10.360 --> 0:29:13.280 and said no, no, no no, I am the real Christ. 0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:15.959 And they each had different sort of methods of dealing 0:29:15.960 --> 0:29:19.800 with the others, but none of them wavered initially no. 0:29:20.040 --> 0:29:23.520 And and it was really really um, it was kind 0:29:23.560 --> 0:29:27.840 of in and of itself, just that finding that not 0:29:27.880 --> 0:29:30.480 only did they not have their identities shattered, but they 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:34.680 just re rebuilt and reinforced their identities. However they could 0:29:34.680 --> 0:29:37.480 find a way to do it to their own satisfaction. 0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:40.520 That's a pretty big psychological finding in and of itself, 0:29:40.600 --> 0:29:43.680 you know, although it doesn't seem worth putting these men 0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:46.560 through that just to find that out, you know, Yeah, 0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:51.280 for sure. Um, I think Joseph said, Uh. Joseph was 0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:54.560 more one to sort of laugh it off. Uh. He said, 0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:58.560 there's nothing wrong. Yesterday I knew I was what I am. Today, 0:29:58.600 --> 0:30:01.000 I am what I am. I'm not worried about losing 0:30:01.000 --> 0:30:03.880 my identity. Uh. And we also should point out that 0:30:03.960 --> 0:30:06.600 Joseph uh and this was portrayed in the movie too 0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:09.720 by Peter Dinklage. He was spoke with an English accent. 0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:13.520 He thought he was convinced himself that he was from England, 0:30:13.880 --> 0:30:17.360 that he was descendant of royalty, and that the hospital 0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:20.440 was an English stronghold. Don't think I didn't notice you 0:30:20.600 --> 0:30:23.800 just slipped Peter Dinklage in there. I know that only 0:30:23.880 --> 0:30:25.560 leaves one worts. I don't need to do the third. 0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:30.600 So um. One of the other things about Joseph was 0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:33.920 his his interpretation of why they were there in this study. 0:30:33.960 --> 0:30:36.040 Why the three of these men had been brought together 0:30:36.200 --> 0:30:38.240 was so that they could sort out with the other 0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:41.080 two that they weren't Christ, that he was the one 0:30:41.120 --> 0:30:43.440 who was actually Christ, so he could do his work 0:30:43.480 --> 0:30:48.240 here on earth better without having these two, um basically 0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:52.239 harassing him or whatever. So then Leon, um, like I 0:30:52.280 --> 0:30:54.280 was saying, Leon was the one who kind of saw 0:30:55.000 --> 0:30:59.440 the most through ro keeaches. Um saw roeach his intentions 0:30:59.480 --> 0:31:05.560 and saw that were just wrong. Um. And like Clyde, 0:31:05.600 --> 0:31:09.640 I think Clyde said that, um, that they were a rerise, 0:31:09.760 --> 0:31:14.520 that's what he considered the other two or a hick um. 0:31:14.760 --> 0:31:17.320 Joseph said, you know, I am who I am, and also, 0:31:17.400 --> 0:31:18.960 by the way, we all know that I'm really God. 0:31:18.960 --> 0:31:21.320 And then Leon he said that, Um, he said the 0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:25.400 other two were instrumental gods. They were hollowed out gods. Uh. 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:29.560 They were possibly dead already, and machines were operating them 0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:33.200 and making them say these things. But even in that like, 0:31:33.320 --> 0:31:37.040 he wasn't attacking them personally. It was what he felt 0:31:37.080 --> 0:31:39.720 forced to explain his position. And so that's what he 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:42.800 said his position was. But he what he after. As 0:31:42.840 --> 0:31:44.760 he was saying this, he would turn to Joseph. He 0:31:44.800 --> 0:31:47.400 would turn to Clyde and he would say, you know, 0:31:48.000 --> 0:31:51.640 I I mean this, you know respectfully, I I don't 0:31:51.640 --> 0:31:54.160 mean to be to tear you down. Whatever your belief 0:31:54.240 --> 0:31:56.000 is your belief and I don't want it. I'm not 0:31:56.040 --> 0:31:58.560 trying to take it from you. I have my beliefs 0:31:58.600 --> 0:32:01.440 and you have your beliefs and that that's good enough. 0:32:02.200 --> 0:32:08.080 And so through that kind of um like truce that 0:32:08.200 --> 0:32:11.040 was kind of established between these three men, they basically 0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:13.880 kept the researchers at bay. The researchers would try to 0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:15.680 come in and bust things up and get them to 0:32:15.720 --> 0:32:18.880 like argue or you know, make them confront one another. 0:32:19.200 --> 0:32:22.760 But if when left alone, those three men just generally 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:25.480 did not argue about who was God. They avoided the 0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:28.640 subject altogether and just let the other ones be and 0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:31.360 and just kind of entered this live and let live 0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:34.640 kind of position, which I think is is pretty heart heartening, 0:32:34.720 --> 0:32:36.880 you know it is. And that was that was one 0:32:36.880 --> 0:32:39.480 of the things that came through on that uh snap 0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:43.400 judgment with the two research assistants was that their take 0:32:43.560 --> 0:32:46.680 was that these men were generally, like after the initial 0:32:46.760 --> 0:32:50.680 sort of denial stuff um that they were generally pretty 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:53.720 respectful and wanted to give each other the space to 0:32:53.800 --> 0:32:56.520 believe that they were christ if they wanted to. And 0:32:56.560 --> 0:32:59.800 this what that showed was empathy and that's something that 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:03.840 none of them saw coming. Um. At this point, ROKEI 0:33:04.640 --> 0:33:10.760 is being Um kind of hassled by these two grad assistants, saying, hey, listen, man, 0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:13.400 these guys are kind of okay with this, and you're 0:33:13.440 --> 0:33:17.120 taking this thing too far, and eventually he was he 0:33:17.160 --> 0:33:21.520 ignored them basically, and eventually they quit before this next 0:33:21.560 --> 0:33:25.600 phase starts, and because they didn't agree with what was 0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:27.800 going on, because they saw these three guys that were 0:33:27.840 --> 0:33:31.320 generally respectful for one another, they saw Um Rokich would 0:33:31.320 --> 0:33:34.000 do things like a journalist wrote a story about them 0:33:34.000 --> 0:33:37.400 at one point that was obviously not flattering at all 0:33:37.440 --> 0:33:40.840 to the three Christs, and Rokich read this allowed to 0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:43.520 them like he was just trying to push their buttons 0:33:43.560 --> 0:33:46.719 and initiate this conflict, and the two grad assistants eventually 0:33:46.760 --> 0:33:49.840 we're like, we're out of here. Yeah. That story, in particular, 0:33:49.920 --> 0:33:52.720 it was about how Roki was treating three psychotic men 0:33:52.760 --> 0:33:55.000 who thought they were christ and to read that to 0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:58.440 them as it really mean Again, he was trying to 0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:01.280 see what would happen if they they were confronted with 0:34:01.320 --> 0:34:05.800 their identities being considered delusional by other people. And Um 0:34:05.840 --> 0:34:08.359 and Leon in particular didn't like that He said that 0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:11.800 a doctor is a um or a person who's supposed 0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:15.480 to be a doctor is supposed to lift up, build up, guide, direct, inspire. 0:34:15.760 --> 0:34:18.400 He said that what what you've just done is deploring, 0:34:19.160 --> 0:34:22.279 and Rokeach said, you know, deploring. I've traveled seventy five 0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:25.239 miles in snow and storm to come see you. And 0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:27.640 Lean said, yes, but what was your intention in coming 0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:30.239 to see me, sir um? And so he didn't. He 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:32.640 didn't put up with rokits Bs at all, which is 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:36.279 pretty cool, you know, to to to hold delusions and 0:34:36.320 --> 0:34:38.759 to have your delusions attacked like that, and then to 0:34:39.000 --> 0:34:41.080 to to be able to push back, but also in 0:34:41.200 --> 0:34:44.160 still a respectful ways. I think Leon's one of these, 0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:48.240 one of the great unsung heroes of of twentieth century America. 0:34:49.719 --> 0:34:52.279 Should we take a break before phase two? Yeah, I 0:34:52.320 --> 0:34:54.080 say we take a break, man, all right, We'll be 0:34:54.160 --> 0:35:24.520 right back. So before stage two starts, when things get 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:27.960 really unethical, well not before this was kind of part 0:35:28.000 --> 0:35:31.920 of the unethical. The two Gratis assistants had left, and 0:35:31.960 --> 0:35:34.200 he hires this new young pretty woman as a grad 0:35:34.239 --> 0:35:38.840 assistant and basically tells her to flirt with Leon and 0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:41.799 to see if he can make her, make him fall 0:35:41.840 --> 0:35:44.640 in love with her, And that's exactly what happened, and 0:35:45.080 --> 0:35:47.560 Leon fell in love with her and was destroyed when 0:35:47.600 --> 0:35:50.400 he basically came to realize on his own that that 0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:54.400 was never gonna happen for him. Man, it's just brutal. 0:35:54.400 --> 0:35:57.520 He's getting better and better. Yeah. Yeah. When those when 0:35:57.520 --> 0:36:00.239 those grad assistants said you've gone too far, I think 0:36:00.320 --> 0:36:02.640 Rokeach probably said something along the lines of too far. 0:36:03.120 --> 0:36:07.560 I haven't begun to go too far. Just watch what's next. Yeah, 0:36:07.560 --> 0:36:10.000 but there was like upbeat music while he was saying yeah, 0:36:10.160 --> 0:36:15.440 like Salisbury Hill exactly. That is exactly what I was 0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:17.799 thinking of. Thank you for putting it into words, Chuck. 0:36:18.280 --> 0:36:21.279 So what happened next? So what happened next is as 0:36:21.320 --> 0:36:24.399 follows their Rokeach basically saw, like, these guys are not 0:36:24.480 --> 0:36:27.200 going for this. For this, the level of prodding that 0:36:27.239 --> 0:36:29.359 I've been doing, I'm going to really kind of turn 0:36:29.440 --> 0:36:33.720 up the heat. And he wondered if you took the 0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:37.840 members people that were m part of these these patients 0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:42.680 delusional belief systems and personified them like pretended you were them, say, 0:36:42.840 --> 0:36:46.880 started communicating with them through letters or whatever. Um, what 0:36:46.920 --> 0:36:50.240 would happen. Could you conceivably get these people to abandon 0:36:50.239 --> 0:36:53.840 their delusions under the guidance of these authority figures that 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:56.400 were actually part of their delusions. It's really kind of 0:36:56.480 --> 0:36:58.400 mind boggling when you lay it out in like a 0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:00.880 float chart like that. You know, yeah, that this like 0:37:01.120 --> 0:37:04.640 just kept getting worse and worse. So he identified these 0:37:04.640 --> 0:37:08.440 authority figures in all three of them. I guess to 0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:12.960 his credit, he laid off of Clyde because I mean, 0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:15.359 I don't know if it was so much empathy as 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:18.000 it was, he knew he wasn't getting very far with Clyde, 0:37:18.400 --> 0:37:20.200 or maybe he was scared of what would happen if 0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:23.359 Clyde maybe you know, yeah, because Clyde was definitely could 0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:26.120 be a little scary. But so he laid off of Clyde. 0:37:26.120 --> 0:37:30.600 But he found that um Joseph said that a superintendent 0:37:30.640 --> 0:37:34.120 of the hospital named Dr Yoder y O d Er 0:37:34.280 --> 0:37:37.880 was his dad, and Leon said that he had a wife. 0:37:38.239 --> 0:37:40.680 He had a couple. His wife the Blessed Virgin Mary 0:37:41.680 --> 0:37:46.320 Uh who was an uncle reincarnated as Michael the archangel 0:37:46.640 --> 0:37:50.200 Archangel Archangel. Those are two different. So he was married 0:37:50.200 --> 0:37:52.080 to the Blessed in Virgin Mary and had that uncle. 0:37:52.360 --> 0:37:55.560 Yeah he had those two mm hmm, but that there 0:37:55.640 --> 0:37:57.719 was there was his He wasn't married to his uncle. 0:37:57.800 --> 0:38:01.480 He had another wife later on named Madam Yetti Woman 0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:05.040 after he stopped being married to the Blessed Virgin Mary 0:38:05.080 --> 0:38:09.640 because his uncle Michael the Archangel married blessed the Blessed 0:38:09.719 --> 0:38:13.239 Virgin Mary. It sounds a little confusing, but when you're 0:38:13.239 --> 0:38:15.279 the only stuff like this, I think it just has 0:38:15.320 --> 0:38:18.120 to be a little confusing. Well, the upshot of it 0:38:18.160 --> 0:38:23.040 is Roki started posing as Um as Madam Yeti woman 0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:28.200 um and started a letter writing campaign as Madam Yetti Woman, 0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:32.480 basically reaching out to say, hey, Leon, Um, I just 0:38:32.520 --> 0:38:34.719 want to say hi, and I'm thinking of you and 0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:39.200 let's start talking. So there was correspondence that was established 0:38:39.880 --> 0:38:47.200 as Um as Leon's delusion delude like wife Madam Yetti Woman. Yeah, 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:49.839 and he we should point out that he supposedly had 0:38:49.880 --> 0:38:52.400 gotten not supposedly. I think he did get the hospitals 0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:56.600 permission to sign off on this. As long as he said, listen, 0:38:56.640 --> 0:38:59.080 it's all gonna be positive stuff. I'm not gonna be 0:38:59.080 --> 0:39:01.120 writing them letters say and to go start a fight 0:39:01.200 --> 0:39:03.560 or anything like that, Um, so I'm gonna send them 0:39:03.560 --> 0:39:08.120 positive message messages and I'm gonna stop if this becomes 0:39:08.160 --> 0:39:11.560 upsetting to these guys, and so they said, sure, go ahead, yeah, 0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:14.280 and so he did. He did go ahead um first 0:39:14.280 --> 0:39:17.000 with Leon and I believe, and by this time Leon 0:39:17.120 --> 0:39:19.239 had um. One of the things that he had done 0:39:19.280 --> 0:39:23.760 to transform his identity was to become Doctor Righteous Ideal 0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:27.160 Dong or Dr r I Dong, And apparently the head 0:39:27.239 --> 0:39:29.640 nurse asked him directly like can I please not call 0:39:29.680 --> 0:39:32.440 you Dr don And he said, yes, you can call 0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:35.320 me r I, but everybody else called him Dr r 0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:39.560 I Dong. And he did this, Rokich concluded to basically 0:39:39.600 --> 0:39:43.799 make himself not worthy of of being harassed anymore. But 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:46.720 he was still secretly God, like he knew he was God. 0:39:46.800 --> 0:39:50.040 He was just pretending to be something else. And during 0:39:50.080 --> 0:39:53.120 that period he became married to Madam Yetie woman. So 0:39:53.280 --> 0:39:56.040 ru Keich started addressing letters as to Dr r I 0:39:56.200 --> 0:40:01.759 Dong and basically saying, Um, you know, here's a dollar, um, 0:40:01.800 --> 0:40:03.719 why don't you go buy yourself something nice in the 0:40:03.760 --> 0:40:06.680 hospital store and then share the change with Clyde and 0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:10.160 Joseph and or um. One of the things that they 0:40:10.160 --> 0:40:13.160 would do is they would take turns between the three patients. 0:40:13.239 --> 0:40:15.600 Is who was going to lead the session that day. 0:40:15.920 --> 0:40:17.400 And one of the things you did when you liked 0:40:17.440 --> 0:40:20.239 the session was you chose what song everybody's song at 0:40:20.239 --> 0:40:22.640 the beginning and at the end of the session, which 0:40:22.640 --> 0:40:26.239 is adorable. Um. And so Madam Yeti Woman suggested that 0:40:26.800 --> 0:40:31.320 he choose Onward Christian Soldiers, and he chose Onward Christian Soldiers. 0:40:31.680 --> 0:40:35.680 And so like two rokichi, seeing like there's this there's 0:40:35.719 --> 0:40:39.319 like an actual influence that that is being exerted by 0:40:39.360 --> 0:40:43.200 this delusional figure. And also it demonstrates that that Leon 0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:45.880 is showing like he definitely believes Madam Yeti Woman is 0:40:45.880 --> 0:40:49.600 a person for sure. Yeah, And eventually what broke it 0:40:49.800 --> 0:40:54.160 was as posing as Madam Yeti Woman asked Leon to 0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:58.799 stop using the name Dr Dong. Uh the name things 0:40:58.840 --> 0:41:00.720 seems to have been a sticking point a lot of people. 0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:04.400 Or maybe he just thought that that would since he 0:41:04.400 --> 0:41:06.400 held onto that so strongly, that would have been like 0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:10.920 the toughest thing to make him do, and uh, that 0:41:10.960 --> 0:41:12.680 was sort of it. He was asked about the letter, 0:41:12.840 --> 0:41:17.080 and Leon doesn't really say anything about asking to be 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:20.320 to drop the name Dr Dong. He just starts talking 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:23.320 more and more about God being both male and female 0:41:23.480 --> 0:41:26.480 and insane and sane, and said I don't care for 0:41:26.520 --> 0:41:29.080 the insanity of God and then said I don't want 0:41:29.120 --> 0:41:31.359 any more letters and basically kind of shut it down. 0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:35.440 And so with with those. Um, with Leon's letters in particular, 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:37.799 there was a couple of like really sad things, like 0:41:37.840 --> 0:41:40.239 the whole thing was sad to begin with, but um, 0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:43.640 there's this passage in the book where Leon gets a 0:41:43.719 --> 0:41:47.600 letter and and Rokich realizes that he's holding back tears 0:41:48.480 --> 0:41:51.080 and he starts to ask him, like, why are you, like, 0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:53.600 you know, are you happy? He said, yes, I'm very happy. 0:41:53.680 --> 0:41:56.239 It's a very pleasant feeling to have someone think of 0:41:56.280 --> 0:41:59.759 you like like he was. He was moved to t 0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:02.799 was by the idea that Madam Yeti woman was was 0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:05.400 writing to him and talking about caring for him and 0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:08.720 sending him money to go buy himself things with um 0:42:09.200 --> 0:42:11.920 And rather than just say like, oh, we might want 0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:15.239 to back this off, Rokich used it to step that 0:42:15.400 --> 0:42:18.200 up and arranged for a meeting with Madam Yeti Woman. 0:42:19.320 --> 0:42:21.640 But there was no Madam Yeti Woman who was supposed 0:42:21.640 --> 0:42:24.319 to show up. He was just he was going to 0:42:24.360 --> 0:42:29.120 get stood up from the outset. But still um uh. 0:42:29.360 --> 0:42:32.200 Leon went to go meet Madam Yeti woman and had 0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:33.880 his heartbroken. I think it was after that that he 0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:37.839 stopped responding to the letters. Yeah, and you know when 0:42:37.840 --> 0:42:39.759 he said, I don't want these letters anymore. I don't 0:42:39.760 --> 0:42:42.040 want to receive them. You would think that that's when 0:42:42.200 --> 0:42:44.360 Rokeich would say, all right, well, let's just stop this 0:42:44.440 --> 0:42:49.120 all together, but he didn't because he remembered that Leon 0:42:49.239 --> 0:42:53.720 had another authority figure in his life, which was his uncle, 0:42:54.400 --> 0:42:58.680 George Bernard Brown a k a. The archangel Michael. And 0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:02.120 so he said, hey, have someone call and pose as 0:43:02.239 --> 0:43:05.520 his uncle now. And this didn't work from the beginning, Leon, 0:43:06.840 --> 0:43:08.880 I guess the voice was just so far off, or 0:43:08.880 --> 0:43:11.720 maybe Leon was just really wise to it at this point. 0:43:12.360 --> 0:43:14.840 Uh said you know, no, no, no, this isn't this 0:43:15.040 --> 0:43:18.680 even close to the voice, goodbye and hung up. And 0:43:18.680 --> 0:43:21.120 then they asked him about the call, and he said, 0:43:21.239 --> 0:43:24.280 I don't believe in mental torture, sir. So it seems 0:43:24.280 --> 0:43:25.920 like he was sort of onto him at this point, 0:43:26.320 --> 0:43:27.760 or you know, it was onto him from the beginning, 0:43:28.160 --> 0:43:30.880 but onto him about this ruse I don't think he 0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:33.479 was onto him from the beginning. I think that he 0:43:33.960 --> 0:43:36.000 I mean, from the beginning of the experiments. He was 0:43:36.120 --> 0:43:38.239 wearing got you, I see what you're saying. But yeah, 0:43:38.239 --> 0:43:40.719 but it's really easy to forget because you're reading rogue 0:43:40.719 --> 0:43:44.760 teaches accounts that these men weren't in on the idea 0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:47.279 that it was from Rowe Keeach. They believed that these 0:43:47.360 --> 0:43:51.200 letters were coming from their their delusional figures. That's the 0:43:51.200 --> 0:43:54.360 whole point, which makes it just even more gut wrenching 0:43:54.360 --> 0:43:57.960 when you stop and remember that, you know. So then 0:43:58.239 --> 0:44:00.879 he says, okay, all right, Leon's on, I'm I'm done 0:44:00.880 --> 0:44:03.200 writing letters to him. Who can I write letters to next? 0:44:03.239 --> 0:44:06.560 And he moves on to Joseph. Right, Yeah, So this 0:44:06.680 --> 0:44:10.600 was the one where the superintendent, the fictional Dr. Yoder, 0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:15.360 was the authority figure for Joseph, who he saw his 0:44:15.400 --> 0:44:18.839 a father figure. And so of course Rokich is gonna 0:44:18.920 --> 0:44:21.240 play up this whole father figure thing in the letters, 0:44:21.840 --> 0:44:24.560 saying that he loved him like a son. He just 0:44:24.600 --> 0:44:27.440 wanted the best things for him. And if you remember 0:44:27.520 --> 0:44:31.200 from the original sort of quick bio, Joseph's father was 0:44:31.239 --> 0:44:35.720 awful and abusive, so he's really playing into his deepest 0:44:35.760 --> 0:44:38.880 sort of insecurities here. Yeah, he said, be assured that 0:44:38.920 --> 0:44:41.600 I will always love you, just exactly like a father 0:44:41.680 --> 0:44:44.400 who deeply loved his own son. It's really tough to 0:44:44.400 --> 0:44:49.200 even research this stuff. Yeah, so um so, just like 0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:53.440 with um with Leon uh, through these letters, as Dr Yoder, 0:44:53.680 --> 0:44:56.480 he tried to get Joseph to start doing stuff, finocuous 0:44:56.480 --> 0:44:59.520 stuff at first, like it's saying stop, he didn't, he 0:44:59.600 --> 0:45:02.200 stops saying that he was from England and he was 0:45:02.239 --> 0:45:05.840 from Quebec, started going to church services, that kind of stuff. 0:45:05.960 --> 0:45:08.480 So there was an influence on Joseph, just like there 0:45:08.560 --> 0:45:12.960 was on on Leon using their delusional UM characters or 0:45:13.000 --> 0:45:17.399 delusional friends, authority figures whatever. And I think even Dr 0:45:17.520 --> 0:45:23.000 Yoder prescribed for the fake Doctor Yoder prescribed placebo for 0:45:23.080 --> 0:45:26.440 Joseph's stomach ailments. He had like digestive problems or stomach 0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:31.439 hurt and these placebo pills just fixed him right up. Yeah, 0:45:31.520 --> 0:45:35.919 so the stomach pills placebo supposedly worked. And then he said, 0:45:35.960 --> 0:45:38.160 all right, well that works, so I'm gonna give you 0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:42.080 pills to basically cure your mind and if you want 0:45:42.080 --> 0:45:47.080 to fix fix yourself for good take these pills. Uh, 0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:50.319 which is I mean, this is so far off the 0:45:50.400 --> 0:45:54.600 charts of unethical, Like I can't even describe how far 0:45:54.640 --> 0:45:57.600 off the charts it is. And he said, basically, I 0:45:57.640 --> 0:45:59.839 think he said he gave him an ultimatum. He says, 0:46:00.000 --> 0:46:02.440 I'm only going to continue to give these pills that 0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:07.520 will supposedly make your mind right if you admit that 0:46:07.719 --> 0:46:11.320 you're in a mental hospital. And it's not an English stronghold. 0:46:11.560 --> 0:46:14.800 And Joseph finally said, it's like signed something. And Joseph said, no, 0:46:14.840 --> 0:46:17.200 I'm not going to sign this, and he cut off 0:46:17.200 --> 0:46:20.680 this placebo medication that he believed might be fixing his brain. 0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:23.600 And it kind of petered out after that, and it 0:46:23.680 --> 0:46:26.480 was just like, it's just brutal to think about these 0:46:26.480 --> 0:46:29.120 guys going through this like hope that they're getting better 0:46:29.160 --> 0:46:33.040 and it was all fake. Yeah, he apparently stopped writing 0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:37.160 to Dr Yoder and um moved on to JFK, started 0:46:37.160 --> 0:46:39.920 writing letters to JFK asking to be one of his speechwriters, 0:46:39.920 --> 0:46:43.200 because remember he was a writer as well. So KEI 0:46:43.360 --> 0:46:46.799 is like, okay, alright, let's see what's next. Oh, nothing's next. 0:46:46.840 --> 0:46:49.480 This is the end of the line. He finally realized like, Okay, 0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:53.040 this is not going anywhere. Not only had he not 0:46:53.280 --> 0:46:58.520 at all moved Clyde's delusions or Joseph's delusions, the only 0:46:58.560 --> 0:47:02.200 persons whose delusions changed at all was Leon's, and his 0:47:02.320 --> 0:47:05.600 had just gotten more complex and intricate, certainly not any 0:47:05.680 --> 0:47:09.520 closer to reality. They got further away from reality because 0:47:09.640 --> 0:47:15.200 of this influence from Um from Rokitchen, his his experiment, 0:47:15.640 --> 0:47:19.600 and he has like a pretty rich little admission in 0:47:19.719 --> 0:47:22.960 the book that he says that we do not know 0:47:23.040 --> 0:47:26.359 to what extent our very presence behavior in questions may 0:47:26.400 --> 0:47:30.719 have influenced the results obtained, which is bizarre to say, 0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:35.040 because the whole point of the experiment was to influence 0:47:35.160 --> 0:47:38.640 these people through these this experiment. So it's a really 0:47:38.680 --> 0:47:41.200 weird thing that he even put it in there. Um 0:47:41.239 --> 0:47:43.400 from some of the stuff that I've read, kind of 0:47:43.440 --> 0:47:46.200 picking apart this book at the end, it really just 0:47:46.280 --> 0:47:48.640 kind of peters out and like he's just kind of 0:47:48.960 --> 0:47:51.520 slashing in the air with his sword trying to figure out, 0:47:51.560 --> 0:47:53.880 you know, what the point was of all of this stuff. 0:47:54.520 --> 0:47:58.000 Um And even without like a satisfying conclusion or end 0:47:58.840 --> 0:48:01.640 uh and ended up getting published in nineteen sixty four 0:48:01.680 --> 0:48:05.000 and became like a really big success in the field 0:48:05.000 --> 0:48:07.759 of psychology, but also got widely criticized right out of 0:48:07.800 --> 0:48:10.960 the gate because even though this was mid century America 0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:13.840 and we're talking about mental patients in mid century America 0:48:14.480 --> 0:48:18.359 who have very little rights or retreated very poorly, Like, 0:48:18.760 --> 0:48:20.880 there were still like a lot of people around were like, 0:48:20.960 --> 0:48:23.880 you don't do this to human beings. This is not okay. 0:48:23.920 --> 0:48:26.800 Not everybody did, but some, you know, some critics definitely 0:48:26.800 --> 0:48:31.439 came out immediately. Yeah, it took Rokich a long time though, 0:48:31.440 --> 0:48:34.239 to really kind of come to terms with what he 0:48:34.320 --> 0:48:38.759 had done. And uh, he eventually did, though, about seventeen 0:48:38.800 --> 0:48:41.680 years later. They re reissued the book in nineteen eighty 0:48:41.719 --> 0:48:45.719 one and he wrote a new forward. He admitted in 0:48:45.719 --> 0:48:50.920 interviews in other places as well, that he was also, 0:48:51.480 --> 0:48:54.400 you know, innocence suffering from godlike delusions and that he 0:48:54.480 --> 0:48:58.319 was playing God with these men and regretted it. He 0:48:58.400 --> 0:49:02.880 regretted publishing. He said, I regret having written and published 0:49:02.880 --> 0:49:04.960 a study when I did. I don't know if that 0:49:04.960 --> 0:49:07.080 means that he wishes he could have reflected more on 0:49:07.120 --> 0:49:11.040 it or what, but he did sort of recant and 0:49:11.080 --> 0:49:13.479 say he didn't do the right thing. Um, It's worth 0:49:13.480 --> 0:49:19.120 pointing out that this was uh, six years into his 0:49:19.840 --> 0:49:23.200 suffering from spinal cancer. So I don't know if that had, 0:49:23.680 --> 0:49:25.480 you know, of knowing the end was near for him, 0:49:25.520 --> 0:49:28.880 had something to do with his sort of self reflection. 0:49:29.000 --> 0:49:31.640 But he eventually died in nineteen eighty eight at the 0:49:31.640 --> 0:49:35.240 age of seventy after a thirteen year battle with spinal cancer, 0:49:35.480 --> 0:49:42.040 and you know, left the social psychology world sort of rocked. 0:49:42.320 --> 0:49:44.760 Uh Like, Like I said, I studied this in college 0:49:44.760 --> 0:49:48.200 and it became sort of like the Stanford prison experiment. 0:49:49.040 --> 0:49:52.680 It became worth studying, but not for the reasons that 0:49:52.760 --> 0:49:55.680 they initially launched the study to begin with. No, he 0:49:55.800 --> 0:49:57.840 finally figured out the point of the book, and the 0:49:57.880 --> 0:49:59.479 point of the book where was for him to figure 0:49:59.480 --> 0:50:01.560 out that it was it's unethical what he was doing 0:50:01.640 --> 0:50:03.960 and finally come to terms with what he'd done to 0:50:04.000 --> 0:50:06.080 these poor men, and that you have a right to 0:50:06.200 --> 0:50:08.840 just be left alone and not have your identity challenge 0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:11.400 no matter what you believe you are, who you believe 0:50:11.480 --> 0:50:14.680 you are. And so he actually changed his his methods, 0:50:14.719 --> 0:50:18.120 he his his general belief in the idea of belief 0:50:18.200 --> 0:50:23.759 systems um remain the same, but he changed his tactics 0:50:24.080 --> 0:50:26.640 and that he got involved in self confrontation, where you 0:50:26.680 --> 0:50:30.760 would try to present people with you know, self examination, 0:50:30.800 --> 0:50:32.960 where they would examine what their values were, what their 0:50:32.960 --> 0:50:36.000 beliefs were, and then they would kind of be challenged 0:50:36.040 --> 0:50:39.120 on that like, Okay, you believe in freedom, you place 0:50:39.160 --> 0:50:42.680 a high value on freedom, but you also rated equality 0:50:42.719 --> 0:50:46.319 pretty low. But isn't equality freedom for everybody? So you 0:50:46.360 --> 0:50:48.680 care about your freedom but not other people's freedom? How 0:50:48.680 --> 0:50:51.120 does that really jibe? And then the hope was that 0:50:51.160 --> 0:50:53.200 they would go back and self reflect and be like, no, 0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:54.960 I really do care about freedom and do care about 0:50:55.000 --> 0:50:57.560 other people. Maybe I should care about more about equality 0:50:57.760 --> 0:51:00.840 and improve as a person. And that's ultimately how he 0:51:00.920 --> 0:51:04.200 ended up making his name starting in the seventies. Yeah, 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:06.160 and I gotta tell you when when you read some 0:51:06.239 --> 0:51:10.839 of his um regret about it, he says things like 0:51:11.400 --> 0:51:14.239 or he said things like you know, and in in 0:51:14.239 --> 0:51:18.280 in the end someone was cured and it was me. Uh, 0:51:18.360 --> 0:51:21.200 It's it just that all bothered me a little bit too. 0:51:21.400 --> 0:51:25.120 How he he still made it about himself somehow, even 0:51:25.120 --> 0:51:27.279 though he did say he regretted it and everything. I 0:51:27.360 --> 0:51:32.560 just I never heard as much um regret about these 0:51:32.680 --> 0:51:36.840 three men and and just and and putting them in 0:51:36.880 --> 0:51:39.359 the positions of like they were the ones who helped 0:51:39.400 --> 0:51:41.600 me out in the end. It was just I didn't 0:51:41.640 --> 0:51:44.040 like that. I know exactly what you mean. It's just 0:51:44.280 --> 0:51:47.200 it's still smacks of self involvement and you get and 0:51:47.280 --> 0:51:50.759 also like what happened to these men after the experiment 0:51:50.800 --> 0:51:52.759 was done. They were just cast right back into the 0:51:52.800 --> 0:51:57.759 general populations, like used cleanex basically to deal with what 0:51:57.880 --> 0:52:01.040 they've just been through. It's just it's just rot and 0:52:01.080 --> 0:52:03.719 all around for sure. And at the very least it 0:52:03.800 --> 0:52:08.279 does exist to to to make Mountain row Keats feel better. Right, 0:52:09.840 --> 0:52:11.799 You got anything else? No? I mean, if you want 0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:13.239 to see some of his later work that you were 0:52:13.239 --> 0:52:16.240 talking about the value stuff, there all kinds of really 0:52:16.280 --> 0:52:19.799 wacky YouTube videos from people about that stuff. Nice. And 0:52:19.840 --> 0:52:22.800 if you want to see the movie that they remade 0:52:22.840 --> 0:52:27.600 about this, don't ye. Um, Well, since I said don't 0:52:27.800 --> 0:52:30.400 see that movie, it's time of course for a listener 0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:36.960 mail everybody. I'm gonna call this a guy who has 0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:40.160 the same step on a crack thing as I do. Okay, 0:52:40.719 --> 0:52:43.799 this is from Jared Miller. Hey, guys, I gotta say, 0:52:43.880 --> 0:52:46.600 Chuck is the only other person I've heard to express 0:52:46.680 --> 0:52:48.520 the same compulsion that I have. If I step on 0:52:48.560 --> 0:52:51.439 the surface that is different from the majority of where 0:52:51.440 --> 0:52:52.960 I'm walking, I try to get my other foot to 0:52:52.960 --> 0:52:55.600 have the same sensation. This can be the line between 0:52:55.640 --> 0:53:00.440 the sidewalk segments, or a traction sticker, an unpaved patch, cetera. 0:53:01.120 --> 0:53:02.960 I gotta say, Jared, it's the same with me. It's 0:53:02.960 --> 0:53:06.279 not just cracks, can be anything, even which part of 0:53:06.320 --> 0:53:09.279 the foot is affected. Same with me, Dude, If I 0:53:09.320 --> 0:53:10.880 do it on my heel, I have to do the 0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:14.200 next one with my heel. It's very interesting. I've even 0:53:14.200 --> 0:53:16.319 found myself doing it with the colors of tiles on 0:53:16.320 --> 0:53:21.080 a pattern floor. Same here for me. It's about symmetrical sensations. 0:53:21.560 --> 0:53:24.279 I sometimes realize I'm doing it when I'm eating uh, 0:53:24.360 --> 0:53:26.759 and have equal chewing time on each side. I don't 0:53:26.760 --> 0:53:32.839 do that. Uh. Once Yeah, you're really out there. Uh. 0:53:32.960 --> 0:53:35.359 Once I became aware of it at a fully conscious level. 0:53:35.400 --> 0:53:38.280 I also became self conscious about it and tried different 0:53:38.280 --> 0:53:40.600 things to break myself of the habit. At times, it 0:53:40.680 --> 0:53:44.600 spins an extreme, as extreme as forcing myself to maintain 0:53:44.600 --> 0:53:47.839 an even gait no matter what. Yeah, I've done that 0:53:48.239 --> 0:53:52.000 while consciously reminding myself that sensations are temporary and that 0:53:52.160 --> 0:53:55.600 it will even uh even out or go away, especially 0:53:55.640 --> 0:53:58.360 if I ignore it. Thanks for all the hours of entertainment. 0:53:58.360 --> 0:54:01.120 You were an early discovery of mine in the podcast 0:54:01.120 --> 0:54:03.719 world back in two thousand nine, and almost none of 0:54:03.760 --> 0:54:06.600 the shows I started listening to back then are still 0:54:06.760 --> 0:54:10.000 going m That's our motto, Jared, just keep doing it, 0:54:10.440 --> 0:54:13.200 just no matter what everybody tells you to stop, please 0:54:13.239 --> 0:54:17.520 God stop, don't quit. You don't listen. So that's Jared 0:54:17.560 --> 0:54:20.840 and Anaheim by way of Idaho. Way to go, Jared 0:54:21.040 --> 0:54:23.759 from all over the place or was it Iowa? I 0:54:23.800 --> 0:54:27.400 don't remember, Sorry Idaho. And that's the worst thing that confused. 0:54:27.400 --> 0:54:31.719 I apologize. Um. So let's see if you want to 0:54:31.719 --> 0:54:35.359 get in touch of this, like Jared did, um, please 0:54:35.560 --> 0:54:38.400 email us, won't you? You can send us an email 0:54:38.440 --> 0:54:45.200 to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you 0:54:45.200 --> 0:54:47.960 Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more 0:54:48.000 --> 0:54:51.960 podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:54:52.080 --> 0:54:53.920 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.