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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh,

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Speaker 1: and there's Chuck and Dave is here with us today

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Speaker 1: and we're all just quietly holding hands. Now we have

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Speaker 1: to stop and come into the real world and start

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Speaker 1: talking to you find people for this episode of Stuff

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Speaker 1: You Should Know. My my lip got caught in my

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Speaker 1: tooth when I said you, and it came out a

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Speaker 1: little weird. It's funny. My daughter finally lost her first tooth,

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Speaker 1: and it's you know, it's changing the way she talks.

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Speaker 1: She's got a little funny little lisp and she's always

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Speaker 1: took tongue in on it. And I'm like, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: be there with you soon. You know, I gotta get

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Speaker 1: this front one redone right, So yeah, I'm gonna wait

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Speaker 1: until right before we have live shows so I can

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Speaker 1: pull that front tooth again. Nice. That'll be a special

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Speaker 1: treat for everybody, especially me. Oh, you were used to it.

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Speaker 1: I really was, um. But the worst was when when

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Speaker 1: you had that little case that you would put it

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Speaker 1: in and that they had event so the smell could

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Speaker 1: waft out of it. Yeah. I gave up after the

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Speaker 1: first one on wearing that thing. I was just like,

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Speaker 1: who cares? Yeah, No, it's great. It was very liberating.

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Speaker 1: It was as is this podcast episode. I think this

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Speaker 1: is going to be a good one, because Chuck, I've

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Speaker 1: been wanting to talk about this for a really long time.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those things that you like hear

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Speaker 1: about and you're like, wait what that That can't be right,

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Speaker 1: And then you read a little more about it and

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Speaker 1: a little more and it just keeps getting worse and worse.

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Speaker 1: But yet it's. Um, it's just kind of one of

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Speaker 1: the like a landmark study in the field of psychology

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about today. Yeah, the Three Christs of

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Speaker 1: hip Salanti and I studied this. I remember this from

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Speaker 1: studying it in psychology class in college and got kind

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Speaker 1: of into it at the time. And um, you started

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Speaker 1: wearing like three Cristi shirts and stuff. I followed them

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Speaker 1: on tour. It was great. I don't for some reason,

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Speaker 1: I thought I read the book, But I don't think

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Speaker 1: I read the book. I think we just covered the

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Speaker 1: book in college and in the psychology class, Like, I

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Speaker 1: don't think they made you read the whole book that

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Speaker 1: we basically just kind of went over it. But I've

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Speaker 1: been pretty fascinated for years, and uh, you know, eventually,

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Speaker 1: when Hollywood made a movie about it four years ago,

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Speaker 1: I was excited and even paid to rent that thing.

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Speaker 1: That pretty good. I watched the first half hour and realized, Man,

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Speaker 1: they've just sort of disneyfied this thing and it's not good.

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Speaker 1: Although our buddy Kevin Pollock isn't it and he's always great. Hey,

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Speaker 1: that guy can steal a scene better than the Hamburglar. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The movie, uh, just so everyone knows, is called The

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Speaker 1: Three crist of Hipslani from John Abnett, starring Richard Gear

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Speaker 1: as the name changed doctor and then the Three Christs.

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Speaker 1: In the movie, you're portrayed by Peter dink Lidge. Uh.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite actors, Walton Goggins. Yeah, he's great, man,

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Speaker 1: I went back. I told you I was watching The

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Speaker 1: Shield again. That guy was amazing in that. In that yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he played one of the main characters. He's just the best.

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Speaker 1: And then, uh, what's the guy's named Bradley Whitford, who's

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Speaker 1: also great. Everyone is good. It just it's one of

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Speaker 1: those movies that they I think just over sanitized and

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Speaker 1: should have made a documentary instead. M hmm. But they

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Speaker 1: didn't and that's okay, and we don't have to talk

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Speaker 1: about that movie ever again. Now then we have instead,

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Speaker 1: I think we should start by giving a little background

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Speaker 1: and the guy whose idea the three crist of Ipsilani

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Speaker 1: experiment was, and it was a researcher, a psychologist, a

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Speaker 1: social psychologist, your favorite named Milton row keach Um and

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Speaker 1: Milton Rokey, had some ideas about what it was to

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Speaker 1: to make up an identity, what made up a person's

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Speaker 1: sense of who they were, and he basically had broken

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Speaker 1: it out into beliefs, a series of different kinds of beliefs,

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Speaker 1: which we we'll kind of talk about here. They're a

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Speaker 1: little more. But there's this anecdote that's frequently passed around

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Speaker 1: that kind of like lays the early groundwork for this

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Speaker 1: idea that that someone's belief in who they are could

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Speaker 1: conceivably be challenged. And it came one night when he

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Speaker 1: was sitting around the dinner table with his wife and

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Speaker 1: his two young daughters, um and he accidentally, in like

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Speaker 1: a moment of frustration telling them to settle down at dinner,

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Speaker 1: called one another by their opposite names. And the girls

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Speaker 1: just thought that was like the funniest thing that ever heard.

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Speaker 1: At first, yes, was that is that? Mike? You? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I even stuck my finger up like all right now

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Speaker 1: you but you can't see it, can you know? Because

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Speaker 1: we just listened to each other. Uh yeah at first,

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Speaker 1: and it was a little fun game. And then I

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Speaker 1: think the five year old even said, you know, this

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Speaker 1: is just a game, right dad, And Dad said no,

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Speaker 1: it's real, and uh, I hear him saying it in

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Speaker 1: that voice, and you know, pretty soon they were begging

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Speaker 1: for him to stop. And I can verify that this

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Speaker 1: is a thing I've been I think his a parent.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you'll call your kid by another name as a joke,

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Speaker 1: like I know I've done it, like called uh my

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Speaker 1: daughter my dog's name. If she's like she'll come into

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Speaker 1: the room and like bark or something as a joke,

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Speaker 1: say oh, you're Nico, and she'll say, yeah, I'm Nico,

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Speaker 1: and then for a few minutes later, I'm like, hey,

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Speaker 1: come here, Nico, and then it's fun for about five

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Speaker 1: minutes and then she's like, no, I am not. So

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Speaker 1: there is very much a thing to a child's identity,

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Speaker 1: especially from their parents, where they kind of get their

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Speaker 1: identity and seek their identity. When that has challenged it,

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Speaker 1: it is very quickly kind of traumatic. Yeah, he learned

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Speaker 1: a couple of things that one, you can very quickly

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Speaker 1: challenge somebody, or you can very very quickly push someone

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Speaker 1: to a state of like trauma or anxiety or panic,

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Speaker 1: even by just by simply challenging their identity by calling

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Speaker 1: them the wrong name purposefully. He also write, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: know Jerry, each other, Jerry, I think it would cancel.

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Speaker 1: Let you they're out do it one more time and

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Speaker 1: I will crumble, okay, Jerry Chifford. But he also learned, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: there's consequences to this. You can't take somebody with a

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Speaker 1: with a well formed, well developed sense of identity and

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Speaker 1: and and I guess a normal sense of identity and

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Speaker 1: push push them to the edge, mess around with that

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Speaker 1: sense of identity. There's there's harmful consequences to that. So

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Speaker 1: he's started to kind of explore this, and like I

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Speaker 1: was saying, like he had broken everybody's um belief system

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Speaker 1: into a handful of different types of beliefs. And the

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Speaker 1: belief that you are who you are, which is what

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Speaker 1: we call our identity. He ascribed to primitive beliefs which

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Speaker 1: are just like basic truths and the same neighborhood as Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm wearing a headphone on one ear and

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Speaker 1: I have the other one behind my head right now,

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Speaker 1: I have brown hair. My name is Josh, your chuck, Like,

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Speaker 1: just basic truths of the universe that anyone you talked

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Speaker 1: to is going to generally agree with. Right, That's where

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Speaker 1: the personality comes from. Yeah, and that that is the

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Speaker 1: very bedrock and foundation of how we think about ourselves.

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Speaker 1: And he already saw messing with that can be bad,

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Speaker 1: so he was like, hey, why not take it a

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Speaker 1: step further right, right, So what I was saying a

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Speaker 1: minute ago with like how we saw that there's consequences

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Speaker 1: to messing with uh sane person, I just made air quotes.

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Speaker 1: If you couldn't tell from my intonation, Um, messing with

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Speaker 1: a sane person's identity, you can't really do that. But

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Speaker 1: this is the mid century in America, and there's a

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Speaker 1: whole group of people that you can do basically whatever

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Speaker 1: you want to with as far as mental stuff goes.

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Speaker 1: And that were people who are suffering from mental conditions

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Speaker 1: who were locked up in state institutions at the time,

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Speaker 1: and so row Keech came up with this idea like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, what if I what if I got

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Speaker 1: my hands on some mentally unstable people, some possibly diagnosed people,

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Speaker 1: and and messed with their sense of identity, took their

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Speaker 1: delusion and challenged it. That could be okay, because hey,

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Speaker 1: their lives are basically useless anyway, I'm paraphrasing row Keech here,

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Speaker 1: and if if something does come of it, there's a

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Speaker 1: good chance that it could be positive instead. So let

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Speaker 1: me have it, let let me add them basically. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a quote here from the book. And big thanks

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Speaker 1: to Dave Ruse for putting this one together. I know

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Speaker 1: this was a it's a tough one to wrangle, but

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Speaker 1: he did a great job. Here's the quote from the book.

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Speaker 1: Because it is not feasible to study such phenomena with

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Speaker 1: normal people, he didn't even put in quotes. Uh, it

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Speaker 1: seemed reasonable to focus on delusional systems of belief in

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Speaker 1: the hope that and subjecting them to strain that would

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Speaker 1: be little to lose and hopefully a great deal to gain.

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Speaker 1: And like, I read that sentence and I'm like, stop there, dude, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's like the perfect motto for the misguided intentions of

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Speaker 1: the study. Yeah. Yeah, he was like indicted himself with

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Speaker 1: that one quote exactly just right out of the gate.

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Speaker 1: And I read this some commentary magazine article from nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty four by um Oh. I can't remember who it was.

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Speaker 1: I don't have it pulled up, but he's a famous

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Speaker 1: poet at the time, and he was basically saying, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, surely Rogue Keeach, the guy who's writing the book, well,

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Speaker 1: it understands that Rogue Keeach, the character this doctor, it's

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Speaker 1: like out of his mind, and he likes he's like

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Speaker 1: slowly realizing, oh wait, this guy, even the author of

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Speaker 1: the book, has no idea that the doctor character who's

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Speaker 1: himself has has any idea just how unethical this is.

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Speaker 1: And that's a that's a that's a great example of it,

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Speaker 1: that demonstrates it right off the bat. Yeah, there's, um,

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Speaker 1: there's I don't know if you listen to the Snap

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Speaker 1: judgment on this, did you hear that? No? It was

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Speaker 1: good Snap, you know, great podcast or public radio program

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Speaker 1: turned podcasts. Sure, I've heard public radio before. I used

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Speaker 1: to I used to listen to a lot more of it.

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Speaker 1: Same here, um Fresh Air, I always still love fresh Air,

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Speaker 1: but I just it's one of those things where I

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Speaker 1: just bulk it up and then, like when I'm painting

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Speaker 1: a room in our house, I listened to just fresh

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Speaker 1: Air the whole time or something, you know what I mean. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what is Terry Gross gonna have us on? Do we

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Speaker 1: need to get to twenty years? Would that do it? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't even begin to bother her until we hit

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Speaker 1: twenty years and then maybe yeah, and then we just

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Speaker 1: started asking basically, hi, Terry hi. Uh. So in that

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Speaker 1: snap judgment um, they pointed out that he uh that

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Speaker 1: Rokich actually read a Harper's article about two women who

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Speaker 1: believe they were the Virgin Mary, and that put an

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Speaker 1: idea into his head. And I know that in his

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Speaker 1: book he also talked about being inspired a little bit

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Speaker 1: by some some stuff that Voltaire wrote about it. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was a man in the seventeenth century that Voltaire

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Speaker 1: wrote about named Simone Morin who was deranged in the

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Speaker 1: parlance at the time, and he thought that he was

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Speaker 1: Christ and so he was locked up in a madhouse

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Speaker 1: and he um met in that place in the institutional asylum.

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Speaker 1: Another man who thought he was Christ and Simone Morin

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Speaker 1: saw just how how like crazy this guy seemed and

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Speaker 1: was like, wait a minute, maybe I'm crazy. And in

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Speaker 1: confronting this other guy who claimed to have the same identity,

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Speaker 1: he regained his sanity to a certain extent, and unfortunately

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Speaker 1: he relapsed and ended up being burned at the stake

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Speaker 1: for heresy. But there was a moment there where he

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Speaker 1: had kind of like been knocked out of his delusion.

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Speaker 1: That's a huge deal. Like if you if you if

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Speaker 1: you have schizophrenia or delusionable leaves, like if your mental

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Speaker 1: disorder um is to the degree where you hold delusions.

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Speaker 1: And we should say a delusion is not like, you know,

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Speaker 1: a made up belief, for you know, you made your

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Speaker 1: belief up, Like this is what you think is real.

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Speaker 1: It is real to you, and you will defend it

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Speaker 1: when it's challenged. So the idea that somebody who was

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Speaker 1: delusional could be knocked out of their delusion by being

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Speaker 1: confronted with somebody else who had the same delusion, that

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Speaker 1: is groundbreaking. And I can see why roe Keach was like,

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Speaker 1: there we go, that's it, there's my there's my methodology

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Speaker 1: for this or for this this experiment. Yeah, and I'm

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Speaker 1: sure he was, you know, he was turned on a

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Speaker 1: little bit about the idea of three Christs or however

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Speaker 1: many Christs he could find. Well, I mean not even

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Speaker 1: like that, you know what I mean though, but a

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Speaker 1: social he was probably like, you know, this would make

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Speaker 1: for a pretty uh mind blowing experiment plus a great

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Speaker 1: book title. It's one of great understated book titles of

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Speaker 1: all time. Yeah, it's not like the three Richard Nixon's

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Speaker 1: of his Bilanti No, and I mean like Ippsilanti is

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Speaker 1: like this. It's just this this town outside of ann

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Speaker 1: Arbor where where you know, that's where one of the

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Speaker 1: mental asylums were in um, in Michigan at the time. Um.

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Speaker 1: And and it's just like you know, it might as

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Speaker 1: well be Walla, Walla or Lackawanna, or it's just an

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Speaker 1: unusual name in a town that doesn't really have much

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Speaker 1: of a claim to anything, you know what I mean. Yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: all three of those towns are like, is he insulting

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Speaker 1: all of us or none of us? No, No, it's

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Speaker 1: not an insult. It's just it's just, um, it's not

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Speaker 1: like a hot happen in town. And it's been like

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Speaker 1: the Three crist of New York that loses something or

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Speaker 1: the price of London. It's just a rather generally unremarkable place, guys, Ippslani.

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Speaker 1: If you live there and you don't know that it's

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Speaker 1: generally unremarkable. I'm sorry to be breaking this news to you.

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Speaker 1: I don't mean it in a in a unkind way

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Speaker 1: at all. I know you don't. Uh, And I think

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Speaker 1: generally back then, that's where a lot of these institutions

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Speaker 1: were because they needed like lots of land. And uh

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Speaker 1: so let's just leave it at that, and okay, maybe

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Speaker 1: take a break, okay to let everybody really stew on

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Speaker 1: what I said. We'll take a break and we'll find

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Speaker 1: out how he found his his patients right after this, alright,

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Speaker 1: so we're back. Uh. There were twenty five thousand total

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Speaker 1: patients in the system in Michigan State, uh, at Michigan

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Speaker 1: State hospitals. And he went all all of these, you know,

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Speaker 1: he sort of tried to call them down two uh

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Speaker 1: too ideally to Christ figures. Uh. He found a man

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Speaker 1: who thought he was Cinderella. He found it Mrs God uh,

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Speaker 1: and then about six people who thought they were Christ.

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Speaker 1: And three of them were really into this idea and

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Speaker 1: really consistent with their belief that they were Jesus uh.

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Speaker 1: And two of them happened to be at Hippsilanti. So

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Speaker 1: he was like, this is perfect, I'll just transfer the

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Speaker 1: third end and we'll get going. Yeah. And so these

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Speaker 1: guys being inmates of the state at a time where yeah,

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Speaker 1: Ipsilanti had like four thousand people, four thousand patients in

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Speaker 1: just this one institution. Yeah, it's a and if you

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Speaker 1: were already like on the margins society and then moved

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Speaker 1: into a place where you're with four thousand other people

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Speaker 1: on the margins of society, it's a really good place

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Speaker 1: to get lost, to not get any real help. And

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Speaker 1: so one of the things that that was um was

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Speaker 1: part of this this experiment design is to make participating

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Speaker 1: in these discussions this group of these three Christs as

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Speaker 1: attractive to these three men as possible. So they were

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Speaker 1: moved toward d twenty three. They were given their own

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Speaker 1: private day room to eat in, to sleep or not sleeping,

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Speaker 1: but to hang out in away from everybody else. They

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Speaker 1: got some like place to stretch out and to have

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Speaker 1: some company. They got a lot of attention, a lot

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Speaker 1: of perks. Like basically their lives were changed in like

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Speaker 1: incalculable ways by being part of the study. And so

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Speaker 1: when they say, like, these were voluntary meetings and these

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Speaker 1: men were voluntary members of the study, that's that's definitely true.

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Speaker 1: They were. They were voluntary participants. But the perks on

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Speaker 1: offer were just so amazing. They were like you would

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Speaker 1: you could not turn down, you know, participating in some

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Speaker 1: degree exactly. So they were willing participants, uh, insofar as yeah,

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Speaker 1: they got these great perks worth throwning out. So he

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Speaker 1: changed the names of the guys. Uh, to protect their

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Speaker 1: families and to protect them to some degree. But um,

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Speaker 1: we should go over sort of the bios of the

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Speaker 1: three men. Um should we say who played them in

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Speaker 1: the movies? Willot help people? I don't think so, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to disparage those great actors names again. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean the acting, they did a good job. It

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Speaker 1: was just the material. They're all great actors, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, it's just when you write, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to call out the script writer. But it wasn't that good.

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Speaker 1: So let me ask you this sause I didn't see

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Speaker 1: the movie, was it like? And I loved the fact

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Speaker 1: that they made a movie about Freddie Mercury and the

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Speaker 1: other members of Queen. But was it like in the

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Speaker 1: um in in the movie what was the name of

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Speaker 1: that movie, the the Queen movie. That's what I called.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, that's right. Do you remember like every time him,

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Speaker 1: like Freddie Mercury did something brilliant, they would have Brian

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Speaker 1: May they do a pan in close up of him

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Speaker 1: just looking like in awe and astonished. And that's maybe

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Speaker 1: pushing it doing that once in a movie, but they

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Speaker 1: did that every like fifteen or twenty minutes. Was it

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Speaker 1: kind of like that same sentiment. It wasn't so much

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Speaker 1: that And again only watched the first act before I

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Speaker 1: realized it was just it was just really sanitized and

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Speaker 1: like a feel good type of thing. Sounds similar, Yeah, right, exactly.

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Speaker 1: This is not a This is not a feel good story.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if it was performance. Aren't you accidentally stumbled upon?

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Speaker 1: I mean that was there was some tough stuff in there.

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Speaker 1: It's not like it was completely like, hey, this is great,

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Speaker 1: but it kind of reeked of like an Awakenings kind

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Speaker 1: of thing, and I like to waken I got it, alright, Alright,

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Speaker 1: I liked Awakenings too, But it sounds like what you're

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Speaker 1: describing as more along the lines of the Greatest Showman,

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Speaker 1: like that kind of sanitization. I didn't see that, okay,

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Speaker 1: did you no? But he did that episode just tearing

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Speaker 1: it apart. Yeah, we hadn't even seen it. We're comfortable

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Speaker 1: doing that at times. So the first guy was in

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Speaker 1: his late fifties, Joseph Cassel fifty eight. He had been

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Speaker 1: in the hospital for about twenty years and was Canadian

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Speaker 1: born and raised in Quebec. And he was named after

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Speaker 1: his after Josephine, his female relative in his family named

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Speaker 1: Joseph And I think the the big takeaway from his

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Speaker 1: childhood was that it was not good very abusive father, UM,

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Speaker 1: very quick tempered man who abused his mom, and his

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Speaker 1: mom actually died while giving birth to her ninth kid,

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Speaker 1: and so he had a rough go of it from

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Speaker 1: the beginning. I think his name actually was Josephine as well,

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Speaker 1: and he went by Joseph. So he he wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a writer. He I think, did you say he

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Speaker 1: was fifty eight at the time, Yeah, okay, and um

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Speaker 1: he uh did not really take to working outside of

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Speaker 1: the house. Um. He and his wife, UM did not

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Speaker 1: have a very like good relationship. Necessarily, he didn't want kids.

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Speaker 1: She did. They ended up having three daughters, and he

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Speaker 1: later on came to believe that um they were not

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Speaker 1: his children after all, and that that may have been

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Speaker 1: correct Um. But then things started to take kind of

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Speaker 1: a turn for the worse, and that Um, he started

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Speaker 1: to become really paranoid. He started to accuse people of

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Speaker 1: poisoning his food. He became a bit of a hoarder,

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Speaker 1: especially with books, and um probably the greatest crime a

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Speaker 1: man could commit in the mid century America. He did

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Speaker 1: not want to work, so that was basically that he

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Speaker 1: ended up um getting sent to uh An asylum in

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Speaker 1: Canada and then onto Ipsilani eventually. And he had been

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Speaker 1: Um been in Ipsilani for I think about twenty years,

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Speaker 1: or at least in and out of the hospital system

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Speaker 1: for about twenty years. And for about ten of those

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Speaker 1: years he had been he had cited that he was

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Speaker 1: he was God or Jesus Christ or both. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: by the time he got around to Rokey Each or

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Speaker 1: Roke Each found him, he was in a pretty bad state.

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Speaker 1: After those twenty years, he had about half of his

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Speaker 1: teeth left in his mouth. He was still hoarding books,

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Speaker 1: carrying around books everywhere and when you know, when asked

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Speaker 1: who he was, he said his name was Joseph, and

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Speaker 1: he said that I am God, and I guess Rokeach said, well,

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Speaker 1: you'll do just fine, very splendid. Um. Yeah, So Joseph,

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Speaker 1: despite you know, the his inability to take care of

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Speaker 1: himself and you know, um, the fact that he hoarded

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Speaker 1: in all of that, he was a very sharp person.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, remember remember to keep that in mind. Like

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Speaker 1: that he was. He was very sharp and a good

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Speaker 1: writer as well. Clyde um and these are these men's

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Speaker 1: names were changed. Clyde Benson. He was seventy, he'd been

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Speaker 1: hospitalized for the last seventeen years. He was in pretty

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Speaker 1: rough shape, he really was. And Rokeach definitely starts to

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Speaker 1: recognize that pretty quickly after meeting Clyde and ends up

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Speaker 1: almost letting him just stay in the group even though

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Speaker 1: he's not really participating any longer. But um, Clyde was

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Speaker 1: apparently raised in an overprotected manner and didn't really learn

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Speaker 1: how to make his own decisions and kind of ended

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Speaker 1: up stunted as a result. Um, which you can make

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Speaker 1: your way through life like that if you if you

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Speaker 1: want to, but he ended up turning to alcohol and

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Speaker 1: became a really hardcore alcoholic to where it was starting

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Speaker 1: to wreck his life. Um. And apparently that came into

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Speaker 1: um collision with a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia at some point, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And you know, it seems like the drinking was the UM.

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Speaker 1: Anytime you have an undiagnosed condition like this and you

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Speaker 1: you pour alcohol, was him on top of it or

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Speaker 1: any kind of you know, drug addiction, it's gonna it's

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Speaker 1: just gonna be even worse. And eventually he was arrested

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Speaker 1: for public drunkenness. Uh. It was a pretty violent arrest

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Speaker 1: and in jail he was violent, and he was saying

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Speaker 1: he was Jesus Christ, that he was God, and that

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Speaker 1: he was reborn through his first wife, Shirley. I believe

402
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Speaker 1: she had passed away and he did get remarried. Um

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Speaker 1: and it was surely the queen of heaven. And at

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Speaker 1: this point they committed him to a mental hospital when

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Speaker 1: he was fifty three where he got that diagnosis, and

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Speaker 1: he was he was the one that was easily the

407
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Speaker 1: most far gone and tough, toughest to reach and sort

408
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: of walked around mumbling. He also didn't have many, if

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Speaker 1: any of his teeth and uh, but occasionally would like

410
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Speaker 1: still had that violence in him where he would have

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Speaker 1: these sort of violent outbursts but then kind of calmed

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Speaker 1: down again. Yeah, and when he did, he was very

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Speaker 1: direct into the point. And um, by, I don't think

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Speaker 1: he was actually physically violent, was he? I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: I think it just could be scary at times. Right,

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Speaker 1: So he would say things like I am him. See

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Speaker 1: now I understand that, like that was the extent of

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Speaker 1: how he would explain that he was God and he

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Speaker 1: didn't need it to be challenged, and if you did

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Speaker 1: try to challenge it, he would just shut you down

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Speaker 1: kind of thing in a very um yeah, like you said,

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Speaker 1: kind of a scary way. So Leon was perhaps one

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Speaker 1: of the saddest of the three cases, and that he

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00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: was had only been hospitalized for about five years. He

425
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 1: was younger, he was thirty eight years old, and he

426
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 1: was um the the snap judgment is great because they

427
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: had his two initial graduate assistance on, Richard Bonnier and

428
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: Ron Hoppy, so like real firsthand experience on the podcast,

429
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: and they were saying that he was the one that

430
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 1: broke their heart the most because he was the one

431
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: that most likely could have been rehabilitated, and uh, it

432
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,479
Speaker 1: just tore them up that they and they liked him

433
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: a lot. He was a real personable guy and what

434
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: it was very engaging with his stories and they really

435
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: thought that they could have helped him had it not

436
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: been uh, you know, in part by what happened with Rokeiach,

437
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: which is sad because that means that Rokeiach made things

438
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: much much worse for these people. And that's something to

439
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: really understand. That there were three men who were living,

440
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: you know, their delusional lives in this statemental hospital, but

441
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: they were generally unmolested until they were they were dragged

442
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: into this study and messed with like in ways that

443
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: you just don't do to other people, you know, and

444
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: that their lives probably were worse, far worse than they

445
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: would have been had they never met Milton Rokey. Yeah.

446
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,719
Speaker 1: So Leon's deal was his mother was um almost certainly

447
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: schizophrenic as well and had delusions, religious delusions. So he

448
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: was raised in the household with these uh with basically

449
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 1: a religious fanatic, and uh that impacted him from the

450
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: very beginning. Of course, he was ended up diagnosed with

451
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: schizophrenia as well. But growing up, and I mean in

452
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: that kind of environment, definitely, I think led to the

453
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: Christ thing for sure. Yeah, And he had like there

454
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: was a time where he was living a normal life.

455
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: He served in World War two, UM, he worked at

456
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: different jobs back in Detroit. UM, he tried to go

457
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: to college. He was trying to make a life for himself.

458
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: But he UM suffered from fatigue, which I looked up

459
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 1: is apparently a really tough co morbidity with UM psychotic

460
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: disorders UM, and it's like got a terrible positive feedback

461
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: where you know, the more tired you get, the worshire

462
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: disorder is, and the worship disorder is, the harder it

463
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: can be to sleep, and it's just not good. So

464
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: he had that, and then he also started hearing voices himself,

465
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 1: UM that we're telling him that he was Jesus Christ.

466
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: And that didn't really jibe very well with his mother's

467
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 1: own religious fanaticism because he saw that she was, you know,

468
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: worshiping these other what he considered idols. And he went

469
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: on um a bit of a violent tear once removing

470
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: all of the all the pictures of the saints and

471
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: breaking all of the figurines and all that stuff in

472
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: demanding that his mother worshiped him as Jesus Christ and

473
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: threatening that is she didn't, he would strangle her. Um.

474
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: And so that was enough to get him locked up

475
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: for good. He'd already been locked up one time for

476
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 1: a brief period, and then about six months after that

477
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: he was locked up um from then until the time

478
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: that he met Milton row Keach. And that was Waldon

479
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: Coggins Man. So he uh, he went by not Leon,

480
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: and again Leon was a fake name that Rokeach gave

481
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: him for the book. But um he went by Dr

482
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: Domino Dominorum at rex razerum, simplest Christianius, purest mentalist doctor,

483
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: which is Latin for lord of lords, king of kings,

484
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,239
Speaker 1: simple Christian boy, psychiatrist. But he asked everyone to call

485
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 1: him Rex for short, and they said thanks sure. And

486
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: he was he was, like you said, like the most

487
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: probably the most personable. He like Joseph, he was very

488
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: sharp too, but also like from a very um, a

489
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: very early stage, he saw quite clearly what roe Keats

490
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: was trying to do, and he thought that it was

491
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: morally repugnant um that that it was not a nice

492
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: thing to do to somebody that you shouldn't mess with

493
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: people like that, and he said as much multiple times

494
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: throughout the study. Yeah, so this is when he hires

495
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: those two grad assistance, is when he finds the guys

496
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: gets this experiment going in earnest and um, you know,

497
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: his hypothesis was that if I can have these three

498
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 1: men confront one another about them being the real Christ,

499
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: that it could rock them into what he saw as

500
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: reality and uh and get them out of these delusions.

501
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: And that didn't happen. Well, it didn't happen at all

502
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: through the experiment, but initially they what they did was

503
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: they really dug in and uh. They each had their

504
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: own way of doing so, but they each dug in

505
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: and said no, no, no no, I am the real Christ.

506
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 1: And they each had different sort of methods of dealing

507
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: with the others, but none of them wavered initially no.

508
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: And and it was really really um, it was kind

509
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: of in and of itself, just that finding that not

510
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: only did they not have their identities shattered, but they

511
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: just re rebuilt and reinforced their identities. However they could

512
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: find a way to do it to their own satisfaction.

513
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: That's a pretty big psychological finding in and of itself,

514
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, although it doesn't seem worth putting these men

515
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: through that just to find that out, you know, Yeah,

516
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: for sure. Um, I think Joseph said, Uh. Joseph was

517
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: more one to sort of laugh it off. Uh. He said,

518
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong. Yesterday I knew I was what I am. Today,

519
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: I am what I am. I'm not worried about losing

520
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: my identity. Uh. And we also should point out that

521
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: Joseph uh and this was portrayed in the movie too

522
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: by Peter Dinklage. He was spoke with an English accent.

523
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: He thought he was convinced himself that he was from England,

524
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: that he was descendant of royalty, and that the hospital

525
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: was an English stronghold. Don't think I didn't notice you

526
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: just slipped Peter Dinklage in there. I know that only

527
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: leaves one worts. I don't need to do the third.

528
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: So um. One of the other things about Joseph was

529
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: his his interpretation of why they were there in this study.

530
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: Why the three of these men had been brought together

531
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: was so that they could sort out with the other

532
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: two that they weren't Christ, that he was the one

533
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: who was actually Christ, so he could do his work

534
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: here on earth better without having these two, um basically

535
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 1: harassing him or whatever. So then Leon, um, like I

536
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: was saying, Leon was the one who kind of saw

537
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: the most through ro keeaches. Um saw roeach his intentions

538
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: and saw that were just wrong. Um. And like Clyde,

539
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: I think Clyde said that, um, that they were a rerise,

540
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: that's what he considered the other two or a hick um.

541
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: Joseph said, you know, I am who I am, and also,

542
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: by the way, we all know that I'm really God.

543
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: And then Leon he said that, Um, he said the

544
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: other two were instrumental gods. They were hollowed out gods. Uh.

545
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: They were possibly dead already, and machines were operating them

546
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: and making them say these things. But even in that like,

547
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: he wasn't attacking them personally. It was what he felt

548
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: forced to explain his position. And so that's what he

549
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: said his position was. But he what he after. As

550
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: he was saying this, he would turn to Joseph. He

551
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: would turn to Clyde and he would say, you know,

552
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: I I mean this, you know respectfully, I I don't

553
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: mean to be to tear you down. Whatever your belief

554
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: is your belief and I don't want it. I'm not

555
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: trying to take it from you. I have my beliefs

556
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: and you have your beliefs and that that's good enough.

557
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: And so through that kind of um like truce that

558
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: was kind of established between these three men, they basically

559
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: kept the researchers at bay. The researchers would try to

560
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: come in and bust things up and get them to

561
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: like argue or you know, make them confront one another.

562
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: But if when left alone, those three men just generally

563
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: did not argue about who was God. They avoided the

564
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: subject altogether and just let the other ones be and

565
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: and just kind of entered this live and let live

566
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: kind of position, which I think is is pretty heart heartening,

567
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: you know it is. And that was that was one

568
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: of the things that came through on that uh snap

569
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: judgment with the two research assistants was that their take

570
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: was that these men were generally, like after the initial

571
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: sort of denial stuff um that they were generally pretty

572
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: respectful and wanted to give each other the space to

573
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: believe that they were christ if they wanted to. And

574
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: this what that showed was empathy and that's something that

575
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: none of them saw coming. Um. At this point, ROKEI

576
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: is being Um kind of hassled by these two grad assistants, saying, hey, listen, man,

577
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: these guys are kind of okay with this, and you're

578
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: taking this thing too far, and eventually he was he

579
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: ignored them basically, and eventually they quit before this next

580
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: phase starts, and because they didn't agree with what was

581
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: going on, because they saw these three guys that were

582
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: generally respectful for one another, they saw Um Rokich would

583
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: do things like a journalist wrote a story about them

584
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: at one point that was obviously not flattering at all

585
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: to the three Christs, and Rokich read this allowed to

586
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: them like he was just trying to push their buttons

587
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,719
Speaker 1: and initiate this conflict, and the two grad assistants eventually

588
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: we're like, we're out of here. Yeah. That story, in particular,

589
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: it was about how Roki was treating three psychotic men

590
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: who thought they were christ and to read that to

591
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: them as it really mean Again, he was trying to

592
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: see what would happen if they they were confronted with

593
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: their identities being considered delusional by other people. And Um

594
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 1: and Leon in particular didn't like that He said that

595
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 1: a doctor is a um or a person who's supposed

596
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: to be a doctor is supposed to lift up, build up, guide, direct, inspire.

597
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: He said that what what you've just done is deploring,

598
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: and Rokeach said, you know, deploring. I've traveled seventy five

599
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: miles in snow and storm to come see you. And

600
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: Lean said, yes, but what was your intention in coming

601
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: to see me, sir um? And so he didn't. He

602
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: didn't put up with rokits Bs at all, which is

603
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: pretty cool, you know, to to to hold delusions and

604
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: to have your delusions attacked like that, and then to

605
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: to to be able to push back, but also in

606
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: still a respectful ways. I think Leon's one of these,

607
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,240
Speaker 1: one of the great unsung heroes of of twentieth century America.

608
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: Should we take a break before phase two? Yeah, I

609
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: say we take a break, man, all right, We'll be

610
00:34:54,160 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: right back. So before stage two starts, when things get

611
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: really unethical, well not before this was kind of part

612
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: of the unethical. The two Gratis assistants had left, and

613
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: he hires this new young pretty woman as a grad

614
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: assistant and basically tells her to flirt with Leon and

615
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: to see if he can make her, make him fall

616
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: in love with her, And that's exactly what happened, and

617
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: Leon fell in love with her and was destroyed when

618
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: he basically came to realize on his own that that

619
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: was never gonna happen for him. Man, it's just brutal.

620
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: He's getting better and better. Yeah. Yeah. When those when

621
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: those grad assistants said you've gone too far, I think

622
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: Rokeach probably said something along the lines of too far.

623
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: I haven't begun to go too far. Just watch what's next. Yeah,

624
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: but there was like upbeat music while he was saying yeah,

625
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: like Salisbury Hill exactly. That is exactly what I was

626
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: thinking of. Thank you for putting it into words, Chuck.

627
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: So what happened next? So what happened next is as

628
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 1: follows their Rokeach basically saw, like, these guys are not

629
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: going for this. For this, the level of prodding that

630
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 1: I've been doing, I'm going to really kind of turn

631
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 1: up the heat. And he wondered if you took the

632
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: members people that were m part of these these patients

633
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: delusional belief systems and personified them like pretended you were them, say,

634
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: started communicating with them through letters or whatever. Um, what

635
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 1: would happen. Could you conceivably get these people to abandon

636
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: their delusions under the guidance of these authority figures that

637
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: were actually part of their delusions. It's really kind of

638
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: mind boggling when you lay it out in like a

639
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: float chart like that. You know, yeah, that this like

640
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: just kept getting worse and worse. So he identified these

641
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: authority figures in all three of them. I guess to

642
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: his credit, he laid off of Clyde because I mean,

643
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was so much empathy as

644
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: it was, he knew he wasn't getting very far with Clyde,

645
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: or maybe he was scared of what would happen if

646
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 1: Clyde maybe you know, yeah, because Clyde was definitely could

647
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: be a little scary. But so he laid off of Clyde.

648
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: But he found that um Joseph said that a superintendent

649
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: of the hospital named Dr Yoder y O d Er

650
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 1: was his dad, and Leon said that he had a wife.

651
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: He had a couple. His wife the Blessed Virgin Mary

652
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: Uh who was an uncle reincarnated as Michael the archangel

653
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: Archangel Archangel. Those are two different. So he was married

654
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: to the Blessed in Virgin Mary and had that uncle.

655
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: Yeah he had those two mm hmm, but that there

656
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: was there was his He wasn't married to his uncle.

657
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: He had another wife later on named Madam Yetti Woman

658
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: after he stopped being married to the Blessed Virgin Mary

659
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: because his uncle Michael the Archangel married blessed the Blessed

660
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: Virgin Mary. It sounds a little confusing, but when you're

661
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: the only stuff like this, I think it just has

662
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: to be a little confusing. Well, the upshot of it

663
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: is Roki started posing as Um as Madam Yeti woman

664
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: um and started a letter writing campaign as Madam Yetti Woman,

665
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: basically reaching out to say, hey, Leon, Um, I just

666
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: want to say hi, and I'm thinking of you and

667
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: let's start talking. So there was correspondence that was established

668
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: as Um as Leon's delusion delude like wife Madam Yetti Woman. Yeah,

669
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 1: and he we should point out that he supposedly had

670
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: gotten not supposedly. I think he did get the hospitals

671
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: permission to sign off on this. As long as he said, listen,

672
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: it's all gonna be positive stuff. I'm not gonna be

673
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: writing them letters say and to go start a fight

674
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: or anything like that, Um, so I'm gonna send them

675
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: positive message messages and I'm gonna stop if this becomes

676
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: upsetting to these guys, and so they said, sure, go ahead, yeah,

677
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 1: and so he did. He did go ahead um first

678
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: with Leon and I believe, and by this time Leon

679
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: had um. One of the things that he had done

680
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 1: to transform his identity was to become Doctor Righteous Ideal

681
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: Dong or Dr r I Dong, And apparently the head

682
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: nurse asked him directly like can I please not call

683
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: you Dr don And he said, yes, you can call

684
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 1: me r I, but everybody else called him Dr r

685
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: I Dong. And he did this, Rokich concluded to basically

686
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 1: make himself not worthy of of being harassed anymore. But

687
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: he was still secretly God, like he knew he was God.

688
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: He was just pretending to be something else. And during

689
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: that period he became married to Madam Yetie woman. So

690
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: ru Keich started addressing letters as to Dr r I

691
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: Dong and basically saying, Um, you know, here's a dollar, um,

692
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: why don't you go buy yourself something nice in the

693
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: hospital store and then share the change with Clyde and

694
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: Joseph and or um. One of the things that they

695
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: would do is they would take turns between the three patients.

696
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: Is who was going to lead the session that day.

697
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: And one of the things you did when you liked

698
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: the session was you chose what song everybody's song at

699
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: the beginning and at the end of the session, which

700
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: is adorable. Um. And so Madam Yeti Woman suggested that

701
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 1: he choose Onward Christian Soldiers, and he chose Onward Christian Soldiers.

702
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: And so like two rokichi, seeing like there's this there's

703
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 1: like an actual influence that that is being exerted by

704
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: this delusional figure. And also it demonstrates that that Leon

705
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: is showing like he definitely believes Madam Yeti Woman is

706
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: a person for sure. Yeah, And eventually what broke it

707
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: was as posing as Madam Yeti Woman asked Leon to

708
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: stop using the name Dr Dong. Uh the name things

709
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,720
Speaker 1: seems to have been a sticking point a lot of people.

710
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: Or maybe he just thought that that would since he

711
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: held onto that so strongly, that would have been like

712
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: the toughest thing to make him do, and uh, that

713
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: was sort of it. He was asked about the letter,

714
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: and Leon doesn't really say anything about asking to be

715
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 1: to drop the name Dr Dong. He just starts talking

716
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 1: more and more about God being both male and female

717
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: and insane and sane, and said I don't care for

718
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: the insanity of God and then said I don't want

719
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: any more letters and basically kind of shut it down.

720
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: And so with with those. Um, with Leon's letters in particular,

721
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: there was a couple of like really sad things, like

722
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: the whole thing was sad to begin with, but um,

723
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: there's this passage in the book where Leon gets a

724
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: letter and and Rokich realizes that he's holding back tears

725
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: and he starts to ask him, like, why are you, like,

726
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: you know, are you happy? He said, yes, I'm very happy.

727
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 1: It's a very pleasant feeling to have someone think of

728
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 1: you like like he was. He was moved to t

729
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: was by the idea that Madam Yeti woman was was

730
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: writing to him and talking about caring for him and

731
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 1: sending him money to go buy himself things with um

732
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: And rather than just say like, oh, we might want

733
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: to back this off, Rokich used it to step that

734
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: up and arranged for a meeting with Madam Yeti Woman.

735
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: But there was no Madam Yeti Woman who was supposed

736
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: to show up. He was just he was going to

737
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: get stood up from the outset. But still um uh.

738
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: Leon went to go meet Madam Yeti woman and had

739
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: his heartbroken. I think it was after that that he

740
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: stopped responding to the letters. Yeah, and you know when

741
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 1: he said, I don't want these letters anymore. I don't

742
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: want to receive them. You would think that that's when

743
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 1: Rokeich would say, all right, well, let's just stop this

744
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: all together, but he didn't because he remembered that Leon

745
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,720
Speaker 1: had another authority figure in his life, which was his uncle,

746
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: George Bernard Brown a k a. The archangel Michael. And

747
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: so he said, hey, have someone call and pose as

748
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: his uncle now. And this didn't work from the beginning, Leon,

749
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: I guess the voice was just so far off, or

750
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 1: maybe Leon was just really wise to it at this point.

751
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: Uh said you know, no, no, no, this isn't this

752
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: even close to the voice, goodbye and hung up. And

753
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: then they asked him about the call, and he said,

754
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 1: I don't believe in mental torture, sir. So it seems

755
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: like he was sort of onto him at this point,

756
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 1: or you know, it was onto him from the beginning,

757
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: but onto him about this ruse I don't think he

758
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,479
Speaker 1: was onto him from the beginning. I think that he

759
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: I mean, from the beginning of the experiments. He was

760
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: wearing got you, I see what you're saying. But yeah,

761
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: but it's really easy to forget because you're reading rogue

762
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 1: teaches accounts that these men weren't in on the idea

763
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 1: that it was from Rowe Keeach. They believed that these

764
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: letters were coming from their their delusional figures. That's the

765
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: whole point, which makes it just even more gut wrenching

766
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: when you stop and remember that, you know. So then

767
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: he says, okay, all right, Leon's on, I'm I'm done

768
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: writing letters to him. Who can I write letters to next?

769
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: And he moves on to Joseph. Right, Yeah, So this

770
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: was the one where the superintendent, the fictional Dr. Yoder,

771
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: was the authority figure for Joseph, who he saw his

772
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: a father figure. And so of course Rokich is gonna

773
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,240
Speaker 1: play up this whole father figure thing in the letters,

774
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: saying that he loved him like a son. He just

775
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: wanted the best things for him. And if you remember

776
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: from the original sort of quick bio, Joseph's father was

777
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 1: awful and abusive, so he's really playing into his deepest

778
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: sort of insecurities here. Yeah, he said, be assured that

779
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: I will always love you, just exactly like a father

780
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: who deeply loved his own son. It's really tough to

781
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: even research this stuff. Yeah, so um so, just like

782
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: with um with Leon uh, through these letters, as Dr Yoder,

783
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: he tried to get Joseph to start doing stuff, finocuous

784
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: stuff at first, like it's saying stop, he didn't, he

785
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: stops saying that he was from England and he was

786
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 1: from Quebec, started going to church services, that kind of stuff.

787
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: So there was an influence on Joseph, just like there

788
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: was on on Leon using their delusional UM characters or

789
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:17,399
Speaker 1: delusional friends, authority figures whatever. And I think even Dr

790
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: Yoder prescribed for the fake Doctor Yoder prescribed placebo for

791
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: Joseph's stomach ailments. He had like digestive problems or stomach

792
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 1: hurt and these placebo pills just fixed him right up. Yeah,

793
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,919
Speaker 1: so the stomach pills placebo supposedly worked. And then he said,

794
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: all right, well that works, so I'm gonna give you

795
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: pills to basically cure your mind and if you want

796
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: to fix fix yourself for good take these pills. Uh,

797
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: which is I mean, this is so far off the

798
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: charts of unethical, Like I can't even describe how far

799
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: off the charts it is. And he said, basically, I

800
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 1: think he said he gave him an ultimatum. He says,

801
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: I'm only going to continue to give these pills that

802
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: will supposedly make your mind right if you admit that

803
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 1: you're in a mental hospital. And it's not an English stronghold.

804
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 1: And Joseph finally said, it's like signed something. And Joseph said, no,

805
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: I'm not going to sign this, and he cut off

806
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: this placebo medication that he believed might be fixing his brain.

807
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: And it kind of petered out after that, and it

808
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: was just like, it's just brutal to think about these

809
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: guys going through this like hope that they're getting better

810
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: and it was all fake. Yeah, he apparently stopped writing

811
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: to Dr Yoder and um moved on to JFK, started

812
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: writing letters to JFK asking to be one of his speechwriters,

813
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: because remember he was a writer as well. So KEI

814
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: is like, okay, alright, let's see what's next. Oh, nothing's next.

815
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: This is the end of the line. He finally realized like, Okay,

816
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: this is not going anywhere. Not only had he not

817
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: at all moved Clyde's delusions or Joseph's delusions, the only

818
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: persons whose delusions changed at all was Leon's, and his

819
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: had just gotten more complex and intricate, certainly not any

820
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: closer to reality. They got further away from reality because

821
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: of this influence from Um from Rokitchen, his his experiment,

822
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: and he has like a pretty rich little admission in

823
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: the book that he says that we do not know

824
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 1: to what extent our very presence behavior in questions may

825
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: have influenced the results obtained, which is bizarre to say,

826
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: because the whole point of the experiment was to influence

827
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: these people through these this experiment. So it's a really

828
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: weird thing that he even put it in there. Um

829
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: from some of the stuff that I've read, kind of

830
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: picking apart this book at the end, it really just

831
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: kind of peters out and like he's just kind of

832
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: slashing in the air with his sword trying to figure out,

833
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, what the point was of all of this stuff.

834
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: Um And even without like a satisfying conclusion or end

835
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: uh and ended up getting published in nineteen sixty four

836
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: and became like a really big success in the field

837
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 1: of psychology, but also got widely criticized right out of

838
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: the gate because even though this was mid century America

839
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 1: and we're talking about mental patients in mid century America

840
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 1: who have very little rights or retreated very poorly, Like,

841
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 1: there were still like a lot of people around were like,

842
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: you don't do this to human beings. This is not okay.

843
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 1: Not everybody did, but some, you know, some critics definitely

844
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,439
Speaker 1: came out immediately. Yeah, it took Rokich a long time though,

845
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: to really kind of come to terms with what he

846
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: had done. And uh, he eventually did, though, about seventeen

847
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: years later. They re reissued the book in nineteen eighty

848
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: one and he wrote a new forward. He admitted in

849
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: interviews in other places as well, that he was also,

850
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: you know, innocence suffering from godlike delusions and that he

851
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: was playing God with these men and regretted it. He

852
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: regretted publishing. He said, I regret having written and published

853
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: a study when I did. I don't know if that

854
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: means that he wishes he could have reflected more on

855
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: it or what, but he did sort of recant and

856
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,479
Speaker 1: say he didn't do the right thing. Um, It's worth

857
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: pointing out that this was uh, six years into his

858
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: suffering from spinal cancer. So I don't know if that had,

859
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: you know, of knowing the end was near for him,

860
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: had something to do with his sort of self reflection.

861
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: But he eventually died in nineteen eighty eight at the

862
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 1: age of seventy after a thirteen year battle with spinal cancer,

863
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: and you know, left the social psychology world sort of rocked.

864
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,760
Speaker 1: Uh Like, Like I said, I studied this in college

865
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: and it became sort of like the Stanford prison experiment.

866
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: It became worth studying, but not for the reasons that

867
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: they initially launched the study to begin with. No, he

868
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 1: finally figured out the point of the book, and the

869
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:59,479
Speaker 1: point of the book where was for him to figure

870
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: out that it was it's unethical what he was doing

871
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: and finally come to terms with what he'd done to

872
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: these poor men, and that you have a right to

873
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 1: just be left alone and not have your identity challenge

874
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 1: no matter what you believe you are, who you believe

875
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: you are. And so he actually changed his his methods,

876
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: he his his general belief in the idea of belief

877
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: systems um remain the same, but he changed his tactics

878
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: and that he got involved in self confrontation, where you

879
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 1: would try to present people with you know, self examination,

880
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: where they would examine what their values were, what their

881
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: beliefs were, and then they would kind of be challenged

882
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: on that like, Okay, you believe in freedom, you place

883
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 1: a high value on freedom, but you also rated equality

884
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 1: pretty low. But isn't equality freedom for everybody? So you

885
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: care about your freedom but not other people's freedom? How

886
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: does that really jibe? And then the hope was that

887
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: they would go back and self reflect and be like, no,

888
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: I really do care about freedom and do care about

889
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: other people. Maybe I should care about more about equality

890
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 1: and improve as a person. And that's ultimately how he

891
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: ended up making his name starting in the seventies. Yeah,

892
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: and I gotta tell you when when you read some

893
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: of his um regret about it, he says things like

894
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: or he said things like you know, and in in

895
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:18,280
Speaker 1: in the end someone was cured and it was me. Uh,

896
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: It's it just that all bothered me a little bit too.

897
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: How he he still made it about himself somehow, even

898
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: though he did say he regretted it and everything. I

899
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: just I never heard as much um regret about these

900
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 1: three men and and just and and putting them in

901
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 1: the positions of like they were the ones who helped

902
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: me out in the end. It was just I didn't

903
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: like that. I know exactly what you mean. It's just

904
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: it's still smacks of self involvement and you get and

905
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 1: also like what happened to these men after the experiment

906
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: was done. They were just cast right back into the

907
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: general populations, like used cleanex basically to deal with what

908
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: they've just been through. It's just it's just rot and

909
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: all around for sure. And at the very least it

910
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 1: does exist to to to make Mountain row Keats feel better. Right,

911
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 1: You got anything else? No? I mean, if you want

912
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: to see some of his later work that you were

913
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 1: talking about the value stuff, there all kinds of really

914
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: wacky YouTube videos from people about that stuff. Nice. And

915
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 1: if you want to see the movie that they remade

916
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: about this, don't ye. Um, Well, since I said don't

917
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 1: see that movie, it's time of course for a listener

918
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: mail everybody. I'm gonna call this a guy who has

919
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: the same step on a crack thing as I do. Okay,

920
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 1: this is from Jared Miller. Hey, guys, I gotta say,

921
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: Chuck is the only other person I've heard to express

922
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: the same compulsion that I have. If I step on

923
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,439
Speaker 1: the surface that is different from the majority of where

924
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: I'm walking, I try to get my other foot to

925
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: have the same sensation. This can be the line between

926
00:52:55,640 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: the sidewalk segments, or a traction sticker, an unpaved patch, cetera.

927
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: I gotta say, Jared, it's the same with me. It's

928
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: not just cracks, can be anything, even which part of

929
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 1: the foot is affected. Same with me, Dude, If I

930
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 1: do it on my heel, I have to do the

931
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: next one with my heel. It's very interesting. I've even

932
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: found myself doing it with the colors of tiles on

933
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: a pattern floor. Same here for me. It's about symmetrical sensations.

934
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 1: I sometimes realize I'm doing it when I'm eating uh,

935
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 1: and have equal chewing time on each side. I don't

936
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 1: do that. Uh. Once Yeah, you're really out there. Uh.

937
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 1: Once I became aware of it at a fully conscious level.

938
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,280
Speaker 1: I also became self conscious about it and tried different

939
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: things to break myself of the habit. At times, it

940
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: spins an extreme, as extreme as forcing myself to maintain

941
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: an even gait no matter what. Yeah, I've done that

942
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: while consciously reminding myself that sensations are temporary and that

943
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: it will even uh even out or go away, especially

944
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: if I ignore it. Thanks for all the hours of entertainment.

945
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 1: You were an early discovery of mine in the podcast

946
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 1: world back in two thousand nine, and almost none of

947
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: the shows I started listening to back then are still

948
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 1: going m That's our motto, Jared, just keep doing it,

949
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: just no matter what everybody tells you to stop, please

950
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 1: God stop, don't quit. You don't listen. So that's Jared

951
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 1: and Anaheim by way of Idaho. Way to go, Jared

952
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 1: from all over the place or was it Iowa? I

953
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 1: don't remember, Sorry Idaho. And that's the worst thing that confused.

954
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: I apologize. Um. So let's see if you want to

955
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 1: get in touch of this, like Jared did, um, please

956
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: email us, won't you? You can send us an email

957
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you

958
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 1: Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more

959
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

960
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.