Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Elon Musk says it's outrageous to
Speaker 1: claim he's a Nazi. We have such a great show
Speaker 1: for you today, The Lincoln Project zwn Rick Wilson joins
Speaker 1: us to discuss Trump's increasingly deranged media appearances. Then we'll
Speaker 1: talk to Michigan Secretary of State Johncelyn Benson about her
Speaker 1: new book, The Purposeful Warrior, standing up for what's right
Speaker 1: when the stakes are high.
Speaker 2: But first the news.
Speaker 3: My mister Trump back of the day. We used to
Speaker 3: call people in public office who change their opinion on
Speaker 3: things foot flopper. Now we just see it as a
Speaker 3: normal thing. And he is foot flopped on firing Jerome
Speaker 3: Powell after many, many stern words about him.
Speaker 1: So Jerome Powell is basically what is standing between.
Speaker 2: Us and dollar flight?
Speaker 1: Okay, dollar flight is when the world gives up the
Speaker 1: dollar as the default currency and goes into the Euro
Speaker 1: or something else. Part of the American exceptionalism is that,
Speaker 1: for some reason, people think that our currency is the safest.
Speaker 1: If Donald Trump continues his behavior, as you know, disappearing
Speaker 1: grad students and acting like we're an emerging government or
Speaker 1: the global South, or a country that, you know, South America,
Speaker 1: a sort of country that has a continent that has
Speaker 1: less of this sort of structural democracy that we have
Speaker 1: in this country.
Speaker 2: Then if Trump keeps doing this.
Speaker 1: Then people will stop using the dollar as their default currency.
Speaker 1: Our debt will get more expensive to service. We already
Speaker 1: have enormous debt in this country, and it will be
Speaker 1: real bad, and everything will be more expensive, and we
Speaker 1: won't be able to live in quite the way we've
Speaker 1: been living. And it just no one wants dollar flight,
Speaker 1: which is why we really want Donald Trump to keep
Speaker 1: Jerome Powell. Now, the good news is Jerome Palell is
Speaker 1: not interested in leaving. Like with so many things in
Speaker 1: this Trump administration, it's not even clear that Trump can
Speaker 1: fire Jerome Palell, just like it's not even clear that
Speaker 1: he could deport those immigrants. Everything Trump is doing, or
Speaker 1: at least much of what Trump is doing, will ultimately
Speaker 1: be reversed by the laws or the next president. So
Speaker 1: he's basically, I think, very much threatening something he can't do.
Speaker 1: Now that said, Powell's term as FED chair ends in
Speaker 1: May twenty twenty six, and that I think is important
Speaker 1: because in May twenty twenty six, we will still be
Speaker 1: before the midterms, so that's not going to be good.
Speaker 1: But in twenty twenty six, god knows who Donald Trump
Speaker 1: will put in this job. By the way, I just
Speaker 1: want for two seconds to talk about what's happened at
Speaker 1: the IRS, because I think it's important. I would like
Speaker 1: to read a paragraph from the Economist about what's happening
Speaker 1: at the IRS right now, because I think it's really
Speaker 1: important to realize that these people have no idea what
Speaker 1: they're doing. Okay, Basically, they put a guy in charge
Speaker 1: of the IRS who was a MAGA hero after he
Speaker 1: alleged that the IRS was slow walking its investigation into
Speaker 1: Hunter Biden. He was ousted because Scott Besst, the Treasury Secretary,
Speaker 1: said his name is mister Shapelee. He was installed by
Speaker 1: Elon Musk, and he was asked by dissent. Then he
Speaker 1: had replaced someone else who had resigned because Musk had
Speaker 1: offered a deferred resignation to her. She had replaced someone
Speaker 1: who was Trump's first acting commissioner, Douglas O'Donnell, who retired
Speaker 1: early after a month in the post. Okay, so we
Speaker 1: are now at the fourth or fifth head of the irs.
Speaker 1: So I want to point out like, even when Trump
Speaker 1: World can replace these people, a lot of the time,
Speaker 1: the people that he picks are incompetent or unable or
Speaker 1: unwilling to do what he wants.
Speaker 3: Great stuff. Speaking of how bad things are going, mister
Speaker 3: Trump did this interview with Kristin Milker that you're going
Speaker 3: to talk about more with Rick Wilson and just a bit,
Speaker 3: and I found this piece one of the more laughable moments.
Speaker 2: When does it become the Trump economy?
Speaker 1: It partially is, right now, I think the good parts
Speaker 1: of the Trump economy and the bad parts of the
Speaker 1: Biden economy. Yes, the good parts are the Trump economy
Speaker 1: and the bad parts are the Biden economy. Look, that
Speaker 1: interview is worth listening to because this guy not only
Speaker 1: is he the president, he's the president with the most
Speaker 1: presidential power basically ever, because he's consolidated presidential power. So
Speaker 1: he's somewhere between president and pope. As he posted this
Speaker 1: weekend when he posted pictures of himself the pope. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not good, not good, but you know it is good.
Speaker 1: Jesse Cannon, what's that that my man is losing in
Speaker 1: the court of law.
Speaker 3: I will say, you know, we often brag about things
Speaker 3: we saw coming. Our worst fears before he was elected
Speaker 3: was that this would not happen. So I am emboldened
Speaker 3: by you know, he always talks about how we're going
Speaker 3: to be tired of winning.
Speaker 4: That's not what's happened to him in the court.
Speaker 2: Jesse and I have been through a lot.
Speaker 1: I feel like Jesse has been through more than I
Speaker 1: have because I don't know, I'm like a little bit
Speaker 1: less sensitive to the horrors that are our American political
Speaker 1: system right now.
Speaker 2: But let's just go through it.
Speaker 1: Jesse and I have been writing and talking and podcasting
Speaker 1: about the Alien Enemies Act.
Speaker 2: Forever and ever and ever.
Speaker 1: We thought it was a pretty weak sauce because the
Speaker 1: whole idea is it's always been used during wartime War
Speaker 1: of eighteen twelve, World War One, world War two, at
Speaker 1: all these different times they were able to use this
Speaker 1: Act because it was part of what happens when you're
Speaker 1: at war. Trump wanted to say, we were at war
Speaker 1: with this gang in Nicaragua who no one had ever
Speaker 1: fucking heard of until Trump took office. Turns out courts
Speaker 1: are like yet so that is gonna that's already been
Speaker 1: next and will only be more deportations to countries other
Speaker 1: than a migrants country of origin. Also yet, so that
Speaker 1: is again probably a pretty good sign that Trump is
Speaker 1: losing temporary protective status of people fleeing humanitarian crisis is
Speaker 1: also Trump is Yet the courts say no diice. And
Speaker 1: then of course there are the guys who are still
Speaker 1: rotting at Seacott, and those guys the courts want returned.
Speaker 1: So again, you know, also disappearing foreign students can't do
Speaker 1: that anymore. One has been released more to come under
Speaker 1: outably if we can ever get them out full time.
Speaker 1: Foreign students had to send back their immigration visas, not
Speaker 1: allowed to pull them, warrantless to rest in California, And
Speaker 1: yet refugee admissions got to do it. And the birthright
Speaker 1: citizenship case is going to the Supreme Court.
Speaker 2: I bet you a gazillion dollars.
Speaker 1: That the Supreme Court says, no, you don't get to
Speaker 1: overturn by birthright citizenship. So so far a lot of
Speaker 1: the Heritage Foundation's work has been undermined, and we love
Speaker 1: to see it. We are delighted to see the Heritage
Speaker 1: Foundation lose delightful.
Speaker 3: So, Molly, we did an amazing interview last week with
Speaker 3: the New York Times Peter Goodman on supply chains. I
Speaker 3: know it's not the most exciting subject.
Speaker 2: But we really killed it.
Speaker 1: Let us congratulate ourselves again for that, because we really
Speaker 1: did kill it.
Speaker 3: You know what, it's getting views on YouTube and you're
Speaker 3: talking supply chains, you know you did something right. Anyway,
Speaker 3: it seems that there's gonna be a lot of very
Speaker 3: odd products that are not gonna be on the shelves
Speaker 3: or doubling in price very soon, and it's not feeling
Speaker 3: so good for mister Trump's approval rating.
Speaker 1: So here's the thing which I don't think Trump's approval
Speaker 1: rating has yet been exposed to, because we have been
Speaker 1: warning people about it.
Speaker 2: But no one's only seen it.
Speaker 1: And this is another point where you know, we're warning people,
Speaker 1: but people haven't actually experienced it. Until you experience it,
Speaker 1: you're not going to really understand what it is. So
Speaker 1: here's here's what's going on. There are things that are
Speaker 1: made in China that are not made in the United States.
Speaker 1: By tariffing them, you have just made them more expensive.
Speaker 1: You have not made factories to make them in the
Speaker 1: United States. So we're about to have a real problem.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I want to go back to Amazon. Amazon has made
Speaker 1: everything a lot cheaper by selling a lot of Chinese goods.
Speaker 2: Right now.
Speaker 1: What Amazon wanted to do was put next to prices,
Speaker 1: how much more tariffs we're going to make them?
Speaker 2: But Trump said no. Was very mad.
Speaker 1: Mister Bezos, who has blue origin, wants to put famous
Speaker 1: people on mars. He caved or his people cave. There
Speaker 1: will not be a sort of like this should be
Speaker 1: four bucks, but because of tariffs, it's eight Here's the problem.
Speaker 1: It's still going to be eight bucks. So it may
Speaker 1: not say that tariffs are causing it, but people are
Speaker 1: about to realize that things are about to get more expensive.
Speaker 1: And we're also going to have some empty shelves for
Speaker 1: stuff that isn't made in the state. So Americans tend
Speaker 1: not to like it when things cost more money for
Speaker 1: no reason.
Speaker 2: So we're going to see how this plays. M Rick
Speaker 2: Wilson is the founder of Lincoln Project and the host
Speaker 2: of the Enemy's List.
Speaker 1: It's a Sunday, and Sunday means that Rick Wilson and
Speaker 1: Jesse Roast may congratulations. Let's go Rick Wilson Sunday, President
Speaker 1: of the United States on Meet the Press with Kristen Welker,
Speaker 1: And he doesn't know if he's supposed to uphold the Constitution.
Speaker 4: You know, he has sworn that oath twice now, he.
Speaker 2: Had his fingers crossed both.
Speaker 5: But then again, he's been married three times and he
Speaker 5: swore an oath then too, And he signed about a
Speaker 5: jillion contract in his life and he never followed any
Speaker 5: of those. So my only question to my conservative friends
Speaker 5: who are like the constitution, go him first.
Speaker 4: Really does it? Does it?
Speaker 5: Or or or or are we now in it? Are
Speaker 5: we now just gonna not even pretend anymore? We're just
Speaker 5: gonna go all in.
Speaker 2: We're in post constitutionalism.
Speaker 4: We're in post a lot of things right now.
Speaker 5: And I think I think the dumbest part of this
Speaker 5: is expecting that Trump will ever follow anything that doesn't
Speaker 5: make him money, make him feel like he's the center
Speaker 5: of attention, or titillate him in some way.
Speaker 1: I think the best moment, the best, the most sort
Speaker 1: of meaning full moment of that interview was him saying
Speaker 1: was him explaining that he has no idea how trade
Speaker 1: works at all?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Correct? Correct? Correct? He he really is? He really is.
Speaker 5: That was a guy, and he's a guy that people
Speaker 5: in the White House shouldn't know that he thinks he's
Speaker 5: he thinks he's great with the press, and increasingly, unless
Speaker 5: it is spoon fed to him like like vanilla pudding,
Speaker 5: not so good. I mean, that was not an impressive
Speaker 5: answer on trade or the economy because he doesn't understand
Speaker 5: anything about anything at all.
Speaker 4: There's no there there.
Speaker 5: And and you know, if you were a Trump supporter
Speaker 5: watching that, you know, just arguing, do you had to
Speaker 5: say to yourself, Well, the boss could have answered that
Speaker 5: a little more effectively. Oh fuck, I gotta go to
Speaker 5: the store and buy beans and can goods because we're
Speaker 5: all going to starve this winter.
Speaker 1: So it was not a good So let's talk about
Speaker 1: this for a second, because this is the thing that
Speaker 1: it feels like we're careening towards right now. We still
Speaker 1: have empty container ships coming in right in the ports
Speaker 1: of Los Angeles Long Beach. Some these are sort of
Speaker 1: next week and the week after that's after the tariffs.
Speaker 1: So if you were in the water when the on
Speaker 1: Liberation Day, you weren't tariffed. But if you were heading
Speaker 1: in the water the day after Liberation day, you're on
Speaker 1: the list. As we say in you know an economists
Speaker 1: speak fucked so now.
Speaker 5: Ges that is a technical term that Fred Kayak wrote
Speaker 5: often about the.
Speaker 1: Discussion exactly so now he's fucked. Right, we have China cheat,
Speaker 1: There is no there is nothing, we have no.
Speaker 5: Day like the Chinese is correctly read that Trump would
Speaker 5: do one stupid thing after another, double down on the
Speaker 5: stupid thing. Right, take the stupid thing out on a date,
Speaker 5: fuck it in the backseat of his car, get it pregnant,
Speaker 5: and then become a baby daddy to the stupid things
Speaker 5: son of the stupid thing. This guy, they played him
Speaker 5: like a fiddle, and they continue to play him like
Speaker 5: a fiddle.
Speaker 1: We have no deal with no ninety ninety deals in
Speaker 1: ninety days, right, zero, No Japan, no Indian.
Speaker 5: I don't think we have any actual deals. I mean
Speaker 5: maybe like with so Toe or somewhere.
Speaker 4: I don't think we have I don't think we have
Speaker 4: any deal.
Speaker 1: So we have nothing and we have This all goes
Speaker 1: into effect on July seventh, Okay, July seventh, we have
Speaker 1: again right now, we still have one hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: percent tariffs on China. So you know, everybody sort of stockpiled.
Speaker 1: A lot of vendors have stockpiled. Now we are going
Speaker 1: we're sort of where I think about two weeks two
Speaker 1: three weeks from starting to really have empty shelves. Okay,
Speaker 1: we have no trade deals, we have no plan here.
Speaker 1: Even if tomorrow Donald Trump says to Chi, I give up, uncle,
Speaker 1: let's restart, let's end the tariffs, we will still have
Speaker 1: a post COVID inflationary spike the way we did last time.
Speaker 4: There's no question, there is no question.
Speaker 5: And he's weakened to the US dollar at the same time,
Speaker 5: so foreign goods are going to cost more because of
Speaker 5: the tariffs. The weaker dollar is going to reduce our
Speaker 5: ability to grow the economy.
Speaker 2: Our dead is going to get more expensive because there.
Speaker 5: Are inflationary pressures are going to in the best case,
Speaker 5: the Fed is going to have to put the brakes
Speaker 5: on any idea about reducing rates. Again, none of this
Speaker 5: had to happen, but it all ended up having to
Speaker 5: happen because Trump. I mean, when these mistakes they concatenate,
Speaker 5: they pile on top of one another, and they don't
Speaker 5: just like they're not they're not additive, they multiply.
Speaker 4: They're like logarithmic.
Speaker 5: The more mistakes he makes, the more they compound all
Speaker 5: the previous mistakes. So we're in for you know, everybody
Speaker 5: should pray for a shitty recession.
Speaker 4: That's the good scenario.
Speaker 1: Yes, And the market has sort of gone back to
Speaker 1: pre Liberation day numbers, right. The stocks are sort of
Speaker 1: backup because they think that the FED is going to
Speaker 1: cut interest rates. The Fed is not going to cut
Speaker 1: interest rates because our FED chair is actually smart and
Speaker 1: remembers the nineteen eighties and stagflation.
Speaker 2: Now, what is.
Speaker 1: Going to happen is despite not having a FED cut,
Speaker 1: we are going to still probably have staflation because things
Speaker 1: are going to get more expensive and we're going to
Speaker 1: head into a recession, and that will mean that we
Speaker 1: will be in a moment that is almost unfixable stagulation
Speaker 1: because you can't cut interest rates because things get more expensive,
Speaker 1: and you can't lower interest rates because then things will
Speaker 1: get more inflationary.
Speaker 5: This box he has put us in just about the
Speaker 5: only thing that will undo this, and it won't undo
Speaker 5: all the damage, but has to be basically a blood
Speaker 5: sacrifice of this issue. Trump has to say, and we
Speaker 5: all know how likely this is, which is to say zero.
Speaker 5: Oh god, this was a fucking a mistake. I fired
Speaker 5: Peter Navarro and Howard Lunnink. They're fucking idiots. They led
Speaker 5: me down a wrong path. This country believes in and
Speaker 5: in free trade, and we're gonna work with our international
Speaker 5: friends and allies and partners and trading partners, and we're
Speaker 5: going to restore trade relations across the board. That's gonna
Speaker 5: be my main job from now on. Forget all this
Speaker 5: other crap. I've got to get our economy moving again.
Speaker 5: That's how you would fix it if you were a
Speaker 5: if you believed in fixing it.
Speaker 4: He does not.
Speaker 5: He has he's starting to dig in. I don't mean
Speaker 5: just like the oh well maybe they get two dollars
Speaker 5: instead of thirty that stuff. I think he's starting to
Speaker 5: believe that this this rhetoric he's been using. Oh there's
Speaker 5: gonna be some pain first. We've got to get tougher.
Speaker 5: We've got to tough en up. We've got a reindustrial
Speaker 5: None of the things he thinks are gonna happen have happened,
Speaker 5: and they will not happen because this theory was broken from.
Speaker 1: The beginning, right, I mean, the idea that you would
Speaker 1: ontour manufacturing by making things more expensive is not ever
Speaker 1: how it was going to go. And you could have
Speaker 1: done this. I think had you done this in nineteen seventy,
Speaker 1: it might have worked, sure, but you can't do it now.
Speaker 1: And also the lack of certainty is going to keep
Speaker 1: people from building factories in the United States, especially for
Speaker 1: things that Americans don't even want, these jobs.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's why this is so insane.
Speaker 5: And honestly, we have we made an accommodation in this
Speaker 5: country a long time ago, and Trump never, ever, ever, ever,
Speaker 5: ever mentions it. We have a trade deficit on material
Speaker 5: goods and a wild vast global trade surplus on services.
Speaker 5: Now that those are going to take a big hit too,
Speaker 5: because the world understands the way the game is. They
Speaker 5: understand that the only way to defeat Trump is to
Speaker 5: cause so much economic pain in America that he loses power.
Speaker 5: He has lost a lot of his power in the
Speaker 5: last few weeks because the mojo he had with his
Speaker 5: base from the very started from twenty fifteen. He knows
Speaker 5: the economy, he's a businessman, he's really smart. He knows
Speaker 5: that to negotiate, and now he looks like a fool
Speaker 5: every day that has started to corrode. It's not everybody,
Speaker 5: it's not even the majority of the of the base,
Speaker 5: but it has started to corrode the idea that Donald
Speaker 5: Trump is this economic superhero who can never do wrong.
Speaker 1: I also want to talk about this idea of being
Speaker 1: afraid of Trump. So this weekend we saw Janamels in Maine.
Speaker 1: She won against Trump. I'll see you in court. She
Speaker 1: saw him any court lost like this is. It's so easy,
Speaker 1: don't you know? You can be Gretchen Wibmor hiding behind
Speaker 1: a folder, or you can be Janamel's winning in the court.
Speaker 2: Which do you want to be?
Speaker 4: Listen? I have said this for years.
Speaker 5: For a long time, there was some argument that I
Speaker 5: might be in by saying this, But I've been telling
Speaker 5: people for years. He's a fucking bully. If you give
Speaker 5: in to him, he will take more of your lunch money.
Speaker 5: If you give in to him, he'll beat you up
Speaker 5: another time during the day. If you give in to him,
Speaker 5: he will keep insulting you. If you give in to him,
Speaker 5: he will keep taking a dump.
Speaker 4: In your locker.
Speaker 5: This is a guy who, when he gets caught in
Speaker 5: his bullshit and has to really actually demonstrate it, whether
Speaker 5: it's his trade stuff we were just talking about, whether
Speaker 5: it's the Ukraine War, or whether it's Janet Mills in
Speaker 5: Maine beating him on his sacred issue of the trans
Speaker 5: athlete stuff, or whether it's these law firms who capitulated
Speaker 5: in advance and then now have a court ruling against
Speaker 5: Trump saying not only can you never do this, but
Speaker 5: it was illegal under the first.
Speaker 4: And the fifth and the sixth amendments. That get the
Speaker 4: fuck out of here.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: That so he loses much more than he wins, and
Speaker 5: they translate the few victories he gives into this bulletproof
Speaker 5: image of Donald Trump in the political space that is
Speaker 5: just not accurate. People should go after him and punch
Speaker 5: him in the nose because frequently works well.
Speaker 1: And also the other thing is that, look this is you.
Speaker 1: First of all, it's morally wrong, okay. Second of all,
Speaker 1: it's legally dubious, third of all, it's authoritarianism, and fourth
Speaker 1: of all it's not working. It's like that we have
Speaker 1: every single sort of authoritarian bit. You know, he can't
Speaker 1: don't let him be victor or bond. He can't be
Speaker 1: it any way, stop at stop a stop it. So
Speaker 1: I would say you know worse we got. We got
Speaker 1: the mainstream media. But let's have two seconds on what
Speaker 1: you think the White House Correspondence Association should be doing.
Speaker 5: They have all been in this I think wrong mindset that,
Speaker 5: oh well, if we don't have our place every single
Speaker 5: day in the briefing room, we've lost our mojo.
Speaker 4: That's the big get for being in the of course pond.
Speaker 5: What they should be doing is tearing this White House apart.
Speaker 5: They should be going after all of the secrets and
Speaker 5: the lies, and the corruption and the scamming, and the
Speaker 5: backbiting and the infighting and the weirdness. They should be
Speaker 5: going after this administration in the battlefield where they belong.
Speaker 5: It is not to watch Carolyn Levitt open her lie
Speaker 5: hole every day and tell them another fifteen items of
Speaker 5: why Donald Trump is the small smartest, handsomest, tallest man
Speaker 5: in every room.
Speaker 4: They should be doing their jobs. They should say fuck it.
Speaker 5: If I can't get in the White House, I'm still
Speaker 5: going to make phone calls, I'm still going to go
Speaker 5: do the work. The old model is something once again
Speaker 5: that Trump has hacked. Like a lot of authoritarians, they
Speaker 5: use the authoritarians use the tools of democracies to overturn democracy.
Speaker 5: The Trump media is using the tools of the news media,
Speaker 5: the traditional mainstream media, to break the mainstream media. This
Speaker 5: is a foolish battle. They can't win by complaining about, oh, well,
Speaker 5: why would you let Tim Poole in the White House?
Speaker 5: Even though I don't know who said it, but when
Speaker 5: Tim Poole was in there, somebody said the other day,
Speaker 5: he looks like he's about to leave the White House
Speaker 5: and go have a wrap battle with eminem in eight mile.
Speaker 1: What I love about Tempoole is nothing, but also nothing
Speaker 1: that the Beanie.
Speaker 2: I like the Beanie.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, he's a bald guy. He should just
Speaker 4: own it.
Speaker 2: I like it's.
Speaker 4: Easier that way, a fetching chapeau, if you will.
Speaker 1: So the Trump's polling is down, still not probably where
Speaker 1: it deserves to be.
Speaker 4: It's about us.
Speaker 5: It's look, it's it's very close to its forty one forty.
Speaker 1: I like it when he's thirty eight, that's thirty seven
Speaker 1: thirty eight. That's my happy place.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it has started to really scare the Republicans.
Speaker 5: I know Virginia Republicans are trying to find ways.
Speaker 4: To say his name.
Speaker 1: That's a fun story talk about the Virginia gubernatorial.
Speaker 4: All right, Molly, you know this better than I do.
Speaker 4: But it just involves naked pictures.
Speaker 2: Wait, which one is this? What explain it? Because I've known.
Speaker 5: So there's a Virginia Republican candidate out there who is
Speaker 5: caught up in this intramural fight now in the Republican
Speaker 5: Party because the Glenn Youngkin wing of the party, which
Speaker 5: which whether or not people believe it, he is.
Speaker 2: He's turned out, so fuck them hop right.
Speaker 5: But so so they tried to bump this guy named
Speaker 5: John Reid out of the Republican Party because he had
Speaker 5: this he had this account on social media.
Speaker 2: Actually explicit images of.
Speaker 4: Men of gay men and their penises.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And so.
Speaker 4: He's he's running a state wide off for state white office.
Speaker 5: He had a tumblr Tumblr That's what I was trying
Speaker 5: to remember what what platform was.
Speaker 2: Some of the oldies Kin asked read to drop out
Speaker 2: last week.
Speaker 4: Right, So they try to get him out of the race.
Speaker 5: And now it's like you've got the trads like young
Speaker 5: Kin who want him out. The magas are defending the
Speaker 5: guy with the penis picture collection. The evangelicals are nervous
Speaker 5: wins seers, who doesn't like the gays is nervous. The
Speaker 5: whole thing is like, is like kind of an apotheosis
Speaker 5: of where the MAGA movement is. They sucked in all
Speaker 5: of this weird flotsam and jetsam into their system after Trump,
Speaker 5: all the broken toys and misfit children wandered into two
Speaker 5: Maga And so it shouldn't surprise people this is coming up.
Speaker 4: Look, if the.
Speaker 5: Guy wants to have a collection on his Tumblr account
Speaker 5: of men's penises, that is his business. I'm a I'm
Speaker 5: libertarian and open minded enough for to say, as long
Speaker 5: as it's behind the firewall and the utes can't see it,
Speaker 5: that's great.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean, but it's important to remember that
Speaker 1: Virginia is it seems like the I mean.
Speaker 5: Nobody ever criticized Steve Bannon for having a scab collection tumbler,
Speaker 5: but you know, at.
Speaker 1: The Virginia gubernatorial I just want to do another second
Speaker 1: on this because you know it's coming up very soon.
Speaker 1: We have Spamburger is I don't know what you pulling
Speaker 1: at ten thousand more than the Republican.
Speaker 5: Look, here's the thing. If the Republicans lose Virginia at
Speaker 5: the state right level and the legislative level, I will
Speaker 5: tell you exactly. On the congressional level, rather, i'll tell
Speaker 5: you exactly. There's a two word phrase you should just
Speaker 5: say over and over again. That's Elon musk. The fact
Speaker 5: that you So, there's been two hundred and sixty seven
Speaker 5: thousand federal workers fired or laid off, and about one
Speaker 5: hundred and thirty thousand of those people are in the
Speaker 5: great state of Virginia in three congressional districts. Yeah, and
Speaker 5: every one of those members of Congress has said something
Speaker 5: like Alma Ahama and hamanoshould be careful about our job.
Speaker 5: They're going to have Elon Musk hung around their necks.
Speaker 5: I can tell you this works. I've tested it already.
Speaker 5: We're going into the field very soon because these people
Speaker 5: are vulnerable as hell. The doge is about as popular
Speaker 5: as as has rotten meat in the state of Virginia.
Speaker 5: They're going to have to defend it. And the problem,
Speaker 5: as always, when you have a cohort in your party
Speaker 5: of insane people who spend forty percent of their time
Speaker 5: on Twitter every day. When they see someone say, Lord
Speaker 5: Elon made a mistake, their natural reaction is to dogpile
Speaker 5: them and to attack them, and then you end up
Speaker 5: in this thing where where even these MAGA candidates get
Speaker 5: interpreted as establishment rhino Cuckshills, and the Maga stay home,
Speaker 5: or the magas put up another candidate in a primary,
Speaker 5: someone crazier, right right, Yeah, but it's not even about
Speaker 5: Trump in Virginia, it's about Doze in these cuts and
Speaker 5: then it is bleeding them.
Speaker 4: It is bleeding them savagely.
Speaker 2: Right now, it is true Doge.
Speaker 1: Just one last caveat about Doge not saving anyone any money.
Speaker 5: No, No, you could have done You could have done
Speaker 5: basic financial auditing and saved a lot more money.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Hell well.
Speaker 1: Jocelyn Benson is the Secretary of State of Michigan and
Speaker 1: a candidate for Governor of Michigan and the author of
Speaker 1: The Purposeful Warrior, Standing up for what's right when the
Speaker 1: stakes are high.
Speaker 2: Welcome to past politics. So talk to us about this book. Well,
Speaker 2: thanks for having me.
Speaker 7: I'm such a big fan, Nolly and grateful for your
Speaker 7: voice right now in this moment. You're a true purposeful warrior,
Speaker 7: and that's what my book is about. It started as
Speaker 7: my take on what it was like to stand up
Speaker 7: to a president and protect the votes of Michigan anders
Speaker 7: after the twenty twenty election.
Speaker 6: So those are stories we can all be reminded of
Speaker 6: right now. It evolved into a book about the power
Speaker 6: we all have to define a better world for ourselves,
Speaker 6: the people we love, and the places we call home,
Speaker 6: even in turbulent times.
Speaker 1: Tell me about what that looks like for you right now,
Speaker 1: You're the Secretary of State for the State of Michigan.
Speaker 2: How are you doing that?
Speaker 6: Well, you know, the book is really about how we
Speaker 6: all can, in moments of you know, great uncertainty, stay
Speaker 6: true to who we are and see turbulent times as
Speaker 6: an opportunity to restore our power to define who we are.
Speaker 6: So for me in Michigan as Secretary of State on
Speaker 6: the chief election off, Sir, that means continuing to stand
Speaker 6: up unequivocally in support of the values that we share
Speaker 6: as Democrats and the work we all need to do
Speaker 6: together to continue protecting democracy. And I'm also running for
Speaker 6: governor in a state that voted for Donald Trump and
Speaker 6: voted for me twice, and so in this moment, we
Speaker 6: have to remember to stand up for who we are
Speaker 6: because team democracy and the truth matters. So in this moment,
Speaker 6: I think We all have opportunities to be warriors for
Speaker 6: who we are, and this book is really a call
Speaker 6: to action for all of us to stay true to
Speaker 6: it those principles even in times of great challenge.
Speaker 1: So, you guys are in a difficult spot trying to
Speaker 1: serve your constituents while protecting them from trump Ism. Can
Speaker 1: you try to explain to us what Governor Whitmera is
Speaker 1: doing right now?
Speaker 6: That's a question for her more than it is for me.
Speaker 6: But at the same time, I believe in this moment
Speaker 6: that governors can be whether you're a governor of a
Speaker 6: blue state or a purple state, or even a red state,
Speaker 6: you can be aligned with who we are and what
Speaker 6: matters most. In my case, I'm unequivocal in recognizing that
Speaker 6: even in a state like ours, we have to be
Speaker 6: clear that we have a responsibility to stand up to
Speaker 6: anyone who had threatened the rights and freedoms of our citizens,
Speaker 6: even if that person is the President of the United States.
Speaker 6: I think it's important for us to hold the line
Speaker 6: and also reinforce the reality that the last one hundred
Speaker 6: days has wreaked economic havoc in our state and in
Speaker 6: our democracy, and so my focus is always to be
Speaker 6: willing to work with anyone to get things done for Michiganders,
Speaker 6: especially when it boosts our economy and invest in our people.
Speaker 6: But we can do that while also being unequivocal and
Speaker 6: standing up to anyone who threatens our economy, the economic
Speaker 6: prosperity of our residents, and that rites and freedoms of
Speaker 6: every citizen. And that is undoubtedly what we're seeing out
Speaker 6: of this administration right now.
Speaker 1: How do you do that without looking like your rubber
Speaker 1: stamping trump Ism or not even like I understand that
Speaker 1: we've seen this, and we saw this in Washington, DC,
Speaker 1: done pretty well by by MARYO Bowser. But a lot
Speaker 1: of times people will think maybe they're negotiating against Trump
Speaker 1: and winning at it, when in fact Trump is absolutely
Speaker 1: kind of ensnaring them.
Speaker 2: How do you do that?
Speaker 6: I think the same way for me, I defended our
Speaker 6: election as also in twenty twenty, which is refusing to
Speaker 6: waiver from the truth. And you know, the truth is
Speaker 6: these less hundred days, we've seen reckless economic policies that
Speaker 6: have driven up the cost of living in Michigan for
Speaker 6: our farmers, for our teachers, for our autoworkers, and those
Speaker 6: economic policies have not been good for our state. If
Speaker 6: there are opportunities to improve them, great, But as governor,
Speaker 6: I would work with other governors and even with other
Speaker 6: governments in other countries to find ways to improve the
Speaker 6: economic well being of our residents, especially if the actions
Speaker 6: that the federal government are taking are only causing more harm.
Speaker 6: We've got to stand up and tell our story. We've
Speaker 6: got to speak with truth and integrity and courage. But
Speaker 6: we cannot waver from those principles, especially in times like these.
Speaker 6: And if you reflect on everything that's happened in the
Speaker 6: last one hundred days, it's not just the economic pieces.
Speaker 6: And I say this as someone who's a staunch defender
Speaker 6: of democracy. I've dedicated my whole life to it. We
Speaker 6: have seen a real damage done to the very legal, constitutional,
Speaker 6: judicial institutions that form the fabric of our democracy, and
Speaker 6: we have to all be unequivocal about standing up and
Speaker 6: condemning that, because this is not the moment to bendi.
Speaker 6: This is the moment to stand proud in defense of
Speaker 6: our democracy, our constitution, our country, and in economic in
Speaker 6: defense of economic policies that will actually drive out the
Speaker 6: cost of living and improve economic opportunity for all all
Speaker 6: of those things are aligned to me, and all of
Speaker 6: those things is what I'd steadfastly pushed for and push
Speaker 6: anyone to stand with me on as governor.
Speaker 1: So what do you say, you know, like the tariffs,
Speaker 1: you hope these tariffs coming, some of them are already here.
Speaker 2: How are the tariffs affecting Michigan.
Speaker 6: I think there's a role for tariffs to be carefully
Speaker 6: played in different roles, and that's not what's happening here.
Speaker 6: What's happening here is the reckless use of tariffs to
Speaker 6: further kind of personal vendettas almost and play games with
Speaker 6: the economic wellbeing of our residents. So, whether it's merchants
Speaker 6: and small business owners, farmers, auto workers, we are all
Speaker 6: mired uncertainty and the chaos that this daily evolution of
Speaker 6: our tariff's policy has caused so many of our residents
Speaker 6: in our state. Yes, we all want to see more
Speaker 6: things made in Michigan. Yes, we all want to invest
Speaker 6: in our manufacturing prowess. Again, there is a role for
Speaker 6: terrorists to play in that. This ain't it, And I
Speaker 6: think we have to be very clear about that and
Speaker 6: offer our alternative views as to how to do that
Speaker 6: by investing in manufacturing and building things in our state
Speaker 6: and shifting phones in that regard. But right now, particularly
Speaker 6: with our allies in Canada, where so much partnership is
Speaker 6: critical for us in Michigan, tariffs and the evolving uncertainty
Speaker 6: of the tariffs have only created economic havoc in our state.
Speaker 6: And my hope is that we see an end to
Speaker 6: that soon. But we need adults in the room making
Speaker 6: these policies at the federal level.
Speaker 1: So what can the state do at this moment to
Speaker 1: protect constituents from Trump? I mean we see ices arresting
Speaker 1: grad students, putting them in detention facilities.
Speaker 2: I mean, they have a.
Speaker 1: Very kind of they're not so into do process anymore,
Speaker 1: and in fact they're running about with the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: on that. What can you do as a state official
Speaker 1: besides protecting votes, what can you do to protect constituents?
Speaker 6: Well, first, it means we're recognizing as policies merge out
Speaker 6: of the federal government, using everything we have at the
Speaker 6: state level to protect our residents, whether it is investing
Speaker 6: in our schools, shifting more funds that have been taken
Speaker 6: away for service projects into service projects in our state,
Speaker 6: we're just at the beginning of seeing the devast station
Speaker 6: that all of these cuts are having on services from
Speaker 6: everything from service providers in our state, to educators in
Speaker 6: our state, to auto workers and to farmers, and so
Speaker 6: as a state, we can do what we can to
Speaker 6: eliminate wasteful spending and bureaucracy, to make the cost of
Speaker 6: starting a business less, to make it easier for people
Speaker 6: to build houses and meet their homes, and eliminate costly
Speaker 6: regulations that stand in the way of that. But in
Speaker 6: this specific moment that a lot of it it is
Speaker 6: just kind of keeping track of the chaos coming out
Speaker 6: of Washington right now and then developing a policy to
Speaker 6: protect people from that as it becomes more clear what's
Speaker 6: actually happening. But the other thing that's emerged over these
Speaker 6: last one hundred days, I think is the recognition of
Speaker 6: all of us as Americans, not just governors, although I
Speaker 6: think governors have a critical role to play in this moment,
Speaker 6: but all of us as Americans to not bend the knee,
Speaker 6: to not allow what we're seeing come out of Washington
Speaker 6: to define who we are, to retain our power to
Speaker 6: define who we are, and fight to restore those values
Speaker 6: of inclusion, of equality, of justice, of fairness, to the
Speaker 6: way our economy and our country operates and our democracy operates.
Speaker 1: I really like you and think you're really a smart politician.
Speaker 1: But when I interview you, and you do a thing
Speaker 1: which a lot of democratic politicians do, which is you'd
Speaker 1: say a lot of things, but you don't necessarily answer
Speaker 1: questions in a way that might be more of a
Speaker 1: sort of nor won't speak. Do you think that that
Speaker 1: hurts democrats? I want to take the case of Harris
Speaker 1: for a minute. She did some interviews, but really not
Speaker 1: nearly as many as Donald Trump, and when she did,
Speaker 1: she did a similar thing of talking but being.
Speaker 2: Very careful with her words.
Speaker 1: Do you think that it actually ultimately hurts democratic politicians
Speaker 1: to be so careful with their words.
Speaker 6: So I've spent every day of my career delivering results
Speaker 6: for the people of Michigan and fighting to make sure
Speaker 6: that every voice is heard in our democracy, and every
Speaker 6: step of the way, I've thought to ensure that our
Speaker 6: government is accountable. I've fought to protect our freedoms against
Speaker 6: people who have come to my home with guns to
Speaker 6: try to take me off my post. I in my
Speaker 6: understand that you Democrats need to do. No, no, no.
Speaker 6: What Democrats need to do is deliver the results. And
Speaker 6: that's what we have done in Michigan to reform as
Speaker 6: Secretary of State's office, to make things work better, to
Speaker 6: protect people's rights at the ballot box. So you know,
Speaker 6: I'm a professor and an educator by training, and I'm
Speaker 6: not a politician. I'm not going to give you talking points.
Speaker 6: I'm not going to give you words and buzz words
Speaker 6: of the day. I am going to go into the
Speaker 6: details about what we're action doing to deliver results for
Speaker 6: the people of Michigan and what I would do as governor.
Speaker 6: But at the same time, I think the more we
Speaker 6: can deliver those results driven experiences for people instead of
Speaker 6: just talk, then we can rebuild our party so that
Speaker 6: more people can see that we are the party of
Speaker 6: getting things done. And I do think governors and state
Speaker 6: leaders or unique position to be able to do that.
Speaker 1: No, I know, and I see. I know that you
Speaker 1: were a Dean of Wayne State lawyer, teacher. I want
Speaker 1: you to win, and I know that you and Governor
Speaker 1: Wimera have had really horrendous experiences including her I mean
Speaker 1: with the Michigan militia. I mean, there are some, really,
Speaker 1: but I just wonder it's a little more clarity. I
Speaker 1: would love more to hang on to, just a little
Speaker 1: more of the sort of nuts and bolts of the
Speaker 1: experience of a lot of electeds. So what we see
Speaker 1: is that when we do these interviews with electeds, people
Speaker 1: don't really connect a lot of times, and they get
Speaker 1: really low ratings. And I think some of that is
Speaker 1: because they don't feel they get a lot of information.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's helpful at feedback. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're obviously going to do it, and we need
Speaker 1: to do it, and it's we do academics, we do.
Speaker 2: We don't do this for the ratings per se. Like,
Speaker 2: I know what you want and I understand that. Look,
Speaker 2: do I want you to be governor? One hundred percent?
Speaker 1: Do I think that you are as smart and as
Speaker 1: competent as anyone running for governor anywhere?
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I think that voters want more to
Speaker 2: hang on to.
Speaker 6: I think what voters want to hang on to, our
Speaker 6: leaders are going to drive down the cost of living,
Speaker 6: increase their wages and economic opportunity, and make their lives easier.
Speaker 6: My office works to meet people where they are, save
Speaker 6: them times, save them money, and help them get on
Speaker 6: with their day. Whether it's small business leaders we need
Speaker 6: to be able to open that small bug business without
Speaker 6: having to pay five thousand dollars in regulations and loti
Speaker 6: you do so, or homeowners that need to be able
Speaker 6: to keep their homes. And what I'm actually hearing from
Speaker 6: the people of Michigan is that they want leaders who
Speaker 6: are going to get stuff done. And that's what I've
Speaker 6: done throughout my career proudly, regardless of who and how
Speaker 6: powerful the person is who tries to stand up miling.
Speaker 2: It's a good point.
Speaker 1: So give us one last thing about what you learned
Speaker 1: writing this book.
Speaker 6: Well, I think first, no one has the power to
Speaker 6: define who we are. Only we have that power. And
Speaker 6: even in challenging, uncertain moments, we always have that power
Speaker 6: to decide how we'll respond to turbulent times and what
Speaker 6: we're going to do. So what this book really is
Speaker 6: actually is a call to action for every American citizen
Speaker 6: in this moment to stand up and be warriors on
Speaker 6: behalf of ourselves those we love in the communities we
Speaker 6: call home. That's what it's going to take to really
Speaker 6: restore our country and rebuild our economy. And my hope
Speaker 6: is that readers in this book will learn from me
Speaker 6: about how I've learned to choose courage over fear, how
Speaker 6: I've learned to be resilient and persevere in the face
Speaker 6: of great tragedy, and in doing so we can together
Speaker 6: build a community of warriors who can help restore our
Speaker 6: country and truly make it great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, great point. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: No moment, Rick Wilson.
Speaker 6: Mollie john Fast, what is your moment of fuck ray?
Speaker 5: That would be Pope Flatulus, the first Donald Trump tell.
Speaker 2: Us why you have fit? This moment is your.
Speaker 5: Moment I find Look, I America is a nation founded
Speaker 5: on religious diversity. And I know the word the d
Speaker 5: word offends the magi at scale, but it really legitimately
Speaker 5: was founded on religious diversity. Go back and read George
Speaker 5: Washington's letter to the Connecticut Synagogue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure they're going to be doing that.
Speaker 4: I'm sure they're going to dig that right up.
Speaker 5: But he talked about freedom of religion as far back
Speaker 5: as that, and for the MAGA is one of their
Speaker 5: articles of fate for the last few years haha has
Speaker 5: been how dare you insult our Christian faith? And then
Speaker 5: Donald Trump posts a picture of himself as the next
Speaker 5: Pope from the official White House Twitter account. I don't
Speaker 5: know how hot the hinges of Hell are. It's a
Speaker 5: phrase we use here in the South right frequently, but
Speaker 5: I suspect if that doesn't qualify as full on white
Speaker 5: hot blasphemy.
Speaker 4: I don't know what.
Speaker 2: Does Rick Wilson white hot blasphemy.
Speaker 4: Watch the documentary Conclave in the Near Future in Conclave
Speaker 4: Too Electric Boogaloo.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
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