1 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: You're listening to Alive Again, a production of Psycopia Pictures 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: and iHeart Podcasts. 3 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 2: I survived something that I probably shouldn't have survived when 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 2: I woke up in the hospital. That's why I said, 5 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 2: I was scared and feelful because I realized that wasn't 6 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: the road you wanted to go down. My name's Cliff Bauman. 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 2: I am a suicide survivor, and I'm so happy to 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: be here today to be able to share my story 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 2: survival from my suicide attempt relating to nine to eleven. 10 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Alive Again, a podcast that showcases miraculous accounts 11 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: of human fragility and resilience from people his lives were 12 00:00:55,080 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: forever altered after having almost died. These are first and 13 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: accounts of near death experiences and more broadly, brushes with death. 14 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: Our mission is simple, find, explore, and share these stories 15 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: to remind us all of our shared human condition. 16 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 3: Please keep in mind. 17 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: These stories are true and maybe triggering for some listener, 18 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: and discretion is advised. 19 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: I grew up in a small town in southwest Missouri 20 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: called a War Missouri. I grew up on a small 21 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 2: family farm. I was just kind of a wild child, 22 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: just kind of running around racing cars and fighting and 23 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: do all the things that we did back then. I 24 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 2: really didn't decide anything of what I want to do 25 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: in life. My older brother, he's four years older, he 26 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: joined the military. He joins the military. Well, I want 27 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: to join the military. We both joined the National Guard 28 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: and we won the Guard for a long time. Really, 29 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: the military helped me kind of straighten my life out 30 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: and kind of give me purpose and focus. I come 31 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: from a military family. My grandfather fought in World War Two, 32 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 2: but I had relatives fight in the Korean War and 33 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 2: Vietnam War, so we're a big military family. I went 34 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: and became a warrant officer. My first moris was sixty 35 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: eight Juliet, which is aircraft armament repair. Started with the 36 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: Cobra helicopter. Anything dealing with the armament system, that's what 37 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: I did. And then when I transitioned to a warrant officer, 38 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: then you become this subject matter expert for that aircraft. 39 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 2: And mine was always to attack helicopters, depache the Cobra, 40 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 2: THEAH fifty eight Delta. I wound up in Washington, d C. 41 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: Because a friend of mine had gone out on an 42 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: adost or acted duty special work tour. He was getting 43 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: ready to leave, and he called me, this is in 44 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: two thousand and says, hey, would you be interested in 45 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: taking this now. I would always volunteer to do extra 46 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 2: stuff for the Guard because it just gave me extra money. 47 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 2: So I would always do extra duties all the time. 48 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 2: And so I had the opportunity to go out to Washington, 49 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: d C. On a one year tour working in telecommunications there. 50 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: And so that's how I wound up in Washington, d C. 51 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: I moved out in two thousand and then, of course 52 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 2: the events of nine to eleven happened a year later, 53 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 2: which you know, profoundly changed my life. And of course 54 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: everybody you know fund that day of baby members of 55 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 2: what they were doing. That day, Trember eleventh was just 56 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: like any other normal day. I commuted into work from Alexandria, 57 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: where I lived about eight miles in Pentagon. I worked 58 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: in the automation's information for the hardware, so and of 59 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 2: course I did telecommunications, and so I would go in 60 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: and then you know, I would go about my day, 61 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: and usually I was the first officer there, and so 62 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: then my boss would come in later that day. He 63 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: was an air Force Colonel, and it just happened to 64 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: be so that day. This ten minus thing is never late, 65 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: So I had not been late that day, we would 66 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: have been right where the plane hit, because we would 67 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: have made it all the way over there by then. 68 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 2: Had heat come in on time, I wouldn't be here. 69 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: He could take the shut over to the Pentagon, which 70 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: a lot of people did, but sometimes we just walk 71 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: because it's not that far of a walk. And it 72 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 2: was a nice day. I mean you come out of 73 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: Crystal City and you cross the street, and you go 74 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 2: underneath the bridge and up and over another bridge, and 75 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 2: you're right there at the Pentagon. I mean, it wasn't 76 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 2: that far away. We were about I don't know a 77 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 2: couple of blocks when the Pentagons. When the plane hit. 78 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 2: Of course, we didn't know at that time exactly what 79 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: had happened. So in that plane hit five hundred plus 80 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 2: miles an hour, you just feel the concussion of the explosion. 81 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: I mean you felt the pressure of that when it hit. 82 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 2: I wasn't too for sure exactly what happened at that moment, 83 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: you know, whether it was a bomb exploding or a 84 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 2: plane hitting the building. You know, I didn't know at 85 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: that point, you just heard a big explosion, just felt 86 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: and then you felt the heat from it right and 87 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: then next thing you know, you see the smoke coming 88 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: out from it hitting it. I mean, it's just instantaneous. 89 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: I was right here in the parking lot. I went 90 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: ahead and move forward to help with the initial rescue 91 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: missions after the clean hit until I was command ordered 92 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 2: back to the building once they figured out what happened. 93 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: So once I got back to the building, of course 94 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: I had the debrief about what I was doing. And 95 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: then you start realizing the plane hit the trade center. 96 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: Then you find out about you know them ground and 97 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 2: all the aircraft. Of course, the security posture starts changing 98 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 2: inside the military, and now you realize that this was, 99 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 2: you know, an attack, and then what's more's going on? 100 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: What else is you going to come up? And then 101 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,239 Speaker 2: sort of just start snowballing with the meetings and stuff. 102 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: You just go into mission focus and completing what needs 103 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 2: to be done to make you know, the United States 104 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: as safe as possible. So that's that's the mode you 105 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 2: go into. It was from there that I got on 106 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 2: the phone with a good friend of mine. He worked 107 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 2: for eighteen T at the time, and they had come 108 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: up with the idea of using a spectrum analyzer had 109 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: to pick up cell phone frequency. 110 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 4: You have. 111 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,679 Speaker 2: Cell phones were in the infancy back then. Bob started 112 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: thinking about thett IS the technology they hare, and how 113 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 2: you can track a cell phone because they emit a 114 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 2: signal in a certain range, and so when they figured 115 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: out that they could track that range with a spectrum analyzer, 116 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: that's when he contacted me and says, hey, I think 117 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 2: this or work. We've been doing it, and I said, hey, 118 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: I think you're right. That's great. Meet me in front 119 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 2: of my building at early in the morning end of 120 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 2: the twelve. Pentagon's a secured area. The fact that I 121 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 2: was able to b ss in through all the layers 122 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: security to get in there to start doing it says 123 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 2: he couldn't believe it. And then once we get in there, 124 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 2: we have a guy named John. We know it's not 125 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: his real name because he worked for a three letter organization. 126 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 2: We just randomly got teamed up with him, and so 127 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: he was helping us get around the Pentagon to pick 128 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: up these cell phone signals to try to rescue. It 129 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: was chaotic down there. You just think about the building 130 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: is still catching on fire. The events less than twenty 131 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: four hours old. There is still big pieces of the 132 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: plane landing gear, you know, stuff like that had blown 133 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: through the corridor there of course with wiring and some 134 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: seats and things like that were clearly there were It 135 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: was a plane that hit. None of us had training 136 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: for that, and so you know it was like when 137 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: we got a ride, w entunloaded the equipment, and now 138 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: we're getting ready to go in. We got stop saying hey, 139 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: you need to have a hard hat on. And one 140 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 2: of the workers that threw me is hard hat, and 141 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: so I took off my soft COVID military cap and 142 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: put on his hard hat that that's part of the hat, 143 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: boosts and gloves that's in the National Guarden. My momi's 144 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 2: in Marshington, d C. And when we would pick up 145 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 2: a signal, I would enter into the building because at 146 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 2: that time I didn't have you know, I wasn't married, 147 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: I didn't have any you know, childre or anything. And 148 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,559 Speaker 2: Bob did and so he would stand outside the building 149 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: when I would go in and retreat the cell phone 150 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: and then you know, if the building collapse or something happened, 151 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: he could at least tell them, you know, where we were. 152 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: At we were waiting through you know, all kinds of stuff, 153 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: you know, knee deep water with all kinds of stuff 154 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: floating in it and everything. And you know, for somebody 155 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: who never experienced that before, right, I'm not a first responder, 156 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: I'm not a policeman. I'm not you know. Yeah, I've 157 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: been in the military and I train, but my unit 158 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: never went to the Golfer, right, and so you never 159 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 2: experienced things. I think you get trained for, you know, 160 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: emergency situations military, right, but you never come face to 161 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 2: face with it. And I think for a lot of 162 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: people that they come to face the face with things 163 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: you're that you've seen. There was one guy in AT 164 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 2: and T team, Well, we just had to have him 165 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: leave the site because he couldn't deal with it. You know, 166 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: some people can't deal with seeing certain things. Yeah, the 167 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: building could have collassed at any time. You know, there 168 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 2: was still dumping water on it. Pieces were falling down, 169 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: and that's why we made the conscious effort that one 170 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: would go in and one would day out. So if 171 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: it did collapse, we could just let the you know, 172 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 2: the team of high rescue team he was still there 173 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 2: on site, let them know where we were at and 174 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 2: what had happened when that plane hit and that nose detached, 175 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 2: it acted like a missile going through. That's why you 176 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: had the half circle going through there. We were just 177 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 2: kind of laser focused on, you know, what our mission 178 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 2: was and what our task was to try to complete it. 179 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 2: People who didn't get out in the first couple of 180 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: seconds probably didn't survive the blast. Right on our mind, 181 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 2: we were just hopeful that maybe we could just find 182 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 2: that one, but unfortunately never did. But you know, we 183 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,959 Speaker 2: proved that technology works. We proved that, you know, our 184 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: cell phone could be melted all the way through and 185 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: that battery still emit a signal because we covered cell 186 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: phones that were completely melted. In the military, you're trained 187 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 2: for all kinds of different events, but no matter of 188 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: training could compair to anybody for that to see what happened, 189 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 2: you know, because we haven't had an attack on the 190 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: American sore like that since you know Pearl Harbor, and 191 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: you know, to see the state of things. And I'll 192 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: let you use your own definition of things. I'm talking 193 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 2: about people, but people in that kind of condition, you know, 194 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 2: I don't think anybody's ready for I mean, even if 195 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: firemen and police officers had a hard time dealing with 196 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 2: what they saw after the attacks on nine to eleven. 197 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: A lot of them, you know, went to a lot 198 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 2: of the same issues and problems that I went through, 199 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 2: you know, and seeing the effects of that. Even as 200 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: firemen and policemen, they will tell you there's some scenes 201 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 2: that they come upon that is just so horrific it 202 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 2: affects them for the rest of their life. No matter 203 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: how many they seemed similar, there's always something that's different 204 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: about each one. And for some people, I think it 205 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 2: just hits them differently because here I am, you know, 206 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: crawlty and stuff, and I got all kinds of crap 207 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 2: on me and I just didn't I just mentally, I 208 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: just wasn't there. And you know, we went through that day. 209 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: We stayed all day on the twelfth until the early 210 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: morning of the thirteenth, after they you know, trick the 211 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 2: bodies out of depending on that's when we left and 212 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 2: went home. Well, for those you know what forty eight hours, 213 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: my family didn't even know if I was alive or not, 214 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: because they've been then able to get a hold of me. 215 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 2: And you know, I kind of went home and talked 216 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: to them and took my hat, boots and gloves off 217 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 2: that I was wearing that day and put them in 218 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: a box. I don't know why I did that, but 219 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: I did. And then I just kind of got in 220 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 2: a shower, and it was in the shower when I 221 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: kind of really just I kind of broke down, you know, 222 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: tears flowing down my face and just kind of just 223 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: dealing with the reality of everything. I internalized, the guilt 224 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 2: of not finding anybody. You're just trying to save somebody, 225 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 2: and then you think maybe I could have done this 226 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: different or done that different. In reality, there's nothing anybody 227 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 2: could have done different. You know. I think I just 228 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 2: allowed my brain to get wrapped around so focused on 229 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 2: one aspect and that the total aspect. You just keep 230 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 2: running that loop around and that's that becomes the problem. 231 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: And so I just kept drooling in in and in 232 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: on that one aspect, and that's why my circle kept 233 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: getting tighter and tighter and tighter, running in your mind 234 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: things that you saw and crawled to and went to. 235 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 2: You know, people talk about that all the time with 236 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: PTSD and other stuff. It's just a constant reel that 237 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 2: over and overplays, and it can pop up at any time, 238 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 2: right you can be outside and the wind blow a 239 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: certain way, or you smell a certain thing, and it 240 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 2: brings you right back to that the dreams that I 241 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 2: would have at night while I was sleeping, and that's 242 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: what I was trying to in my mind self medicating. 243 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: You know, you get on from work and then you know, 244 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 2: as the evening's winding down, you know you're going to 245 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: go to sleep, and there's a chance that you may 246 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: have those dreams and you don't want to think about 247 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: it no more. And so you know, in the beginning, 248 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: I was just drinking enough just to kind of, you know, 249 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: get me to that night. I would make me fall 250 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: asleep faster, which we know that that doesn't really happen. 251 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 2: You don't get good sleep while you're drinking. And I 252 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: think then it was, you know, I was just trying 253 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 2: to stay up as late as I could, so then 254 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 2: I would just go to sleep from exhaustion. At work, 255 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: I started becoming a little bit more withdrawn. You know, 256 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: I wasn't going to lunch with everybody, had started eating 257 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: at my desk and I'd get short with people. And 258 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 2: nowadays we know, you know, that's typical PTSD straight down 259 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 2: the line. But then it wasn't really talked about as 260 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 2: just as two thousand and two anolitary back. You know, 261 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: twenty two years ago. The culture is completely different on 262 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 2: how they deal with mental health. They just didn't deal 263 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 2: with it. So if you're having issues and problems, you 264 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 2: would be med board out of the service within you know, 265 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 2: they'd start that process in sixty days, which after twenty 266 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: years plus of war and everything like that. They look 267 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 2: at things and they treat things differently, And I think 268 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 2: it's it's easier to talk about the things that we 269 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: talk about, but it's still hard. There's still people suffering 270 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 2: in silence. There's still occupations out there that you can 271 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 2: have had adverse effects on your career if you're having 272 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: mental health issues or suicide deviation, and so there's still 273 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 2: a lot of things out there inside society that needs 274 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: to change. What happened was a year after and I left. 275 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: This accelerated my issues. I was having problem with drinking 276 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 2: and stuff, but this made it a lot worse. They 277 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: ran an article on paper that won year anniversary and 278 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 2: one of the people in there was a boy talking 279 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: about his mom. But I had crawled over half a body. 280 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: That was a huge trigger for me. And so now 281 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: I became more depressed and now is drinking heavily at night, 282 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: you know, to not have those dreams and those thoughts 283 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 2: and think about it. Well, that has its own second 284 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: third or affections on yourself. And then so at work, 285 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 2: one of the co workers said, hey, I think you 286 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: have something's wrong with it. I think you can go 287 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 2: speak with somebody. I'm like, no, and there's nothing wrong 288 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: with me. At that point, I'm feel for my career, right. 289 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, you know, my military careers can be over 290 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: if I ain't a mental help, because back then it 291 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: was different in how they do things. Now, I lied 292 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: to my accounts because the alls I want to do is 293 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: get the stamp that I was good to go good. 294 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 2: I was good at lying to it, and so he 295 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 2: prescribed me medication. Maybe I shouldn't have been on that medication. 296 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 2: I don't know, because he was trying to treat my 297 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: symptoms and I'm lying about them, right, and so who 298 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: knows if he even gave me the right medications, which 299 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: probably could have screwed me up even more. No, I've 300 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: been accountling for a couple of months, and then I 301 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 2: go to training at Fort Leavenworth, in Kansas and after 302 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: I finished that training, I went to stay to my 303 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 2: brother's house. And now this is I don't know, December 304 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: twentieth or twenty second, I remember exact date. But you know, 305 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 2: I'm alone. He's gone. You're bad thoughts in a room, 306 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: get up and leave that room, right. I didn't do that, 307 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: And so I'm drinking and I'm having those thoughts of 308 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: guilt of not being able to find anybody alive. I 309 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: had distress of dealing with my family because I'm in 310 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: Virginia there in Kansas City, that's twelve hundred miles away, 311 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: and they call it a couple in effect, you know. 312 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 2: You know, psychologists talk about that where you just no 313 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 2: longer want to live. And you know, once I got 314 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: to that point, no matter training would have stopped me 315 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: for what I was about to do, no amount of anything. 316 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: And I always tell people, we got to stop people 317 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 2: before they get to that point, because once they get 318 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: to that point, it's hard to stop what's going to happen. 319 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 2: Because I went to look for his gun and I 320 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: couldn't find it. That's when I switched the pills, because 321 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: I probably if I were to find his gun, I 322 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: wouldn't be sitting hereward. I've been successful, so that probably 323 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 2: was another life saving measure that saved me was the 324 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: fact that I couldn't find his gun and he just 325 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 2: stuck in the screwball place, not where he normally you know, 326 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: night stand or dress or he just had it in 327 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: a different place, and it just so happened because he 328 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: was rearranging. He lives an old home, but it's a 329 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 2: very big home, so he was rearranging the bedrooms and 330 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 2: just had in a completely different area because he was 331 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: re arranging in his rooms then where it normally would 332 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: have been. A lot of people say that, you know, 333 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 2: having that gunlock on and fiddle him with it saved 334 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 2: their life because then they were like, whoa wait a second, 335 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 2: what am I doing. I wrote a note. I just 336 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 2: said I didn't want to feel the guilty of finding 337 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: anybody alive anymore, and said I leve you of and 338 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 2: signed it. 339 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 4: That was it. 340 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 2: I took a whole bunch of sleeping pills and I 341 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 2: laid down on the couch and next thing I know, 342 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 2: I'll wake up in the hospital. Now, how did I 343 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 2: go from laying on the couch to the hospital. Is 344 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 2: my older brother who works at Truman Medical Center, which 345 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 2: is about a mile from his house. Got a funny 346 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 2: feeling at worked, and he called the house and I 347 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 2: didn't answer. It was just a weird feeling he got 348 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 2: and it wasn't it was like a gut feeling. It wasn't. 349 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 2: It wasn't like a normal feeling that he would have 350 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: when he called the house and I didn't answer. Whatever happened, 351 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: And he can't really explain it. 352 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 4: He was just. 353 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: Different, but he acted on it. Mine was never planned. 354 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 2: I didn't plan for that date. It just happened, right, 355 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 2: So whatever was going on in my mind that space 356 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 2: at that time, it just happened. And so if you 357 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: was to go back and ask my brother, well, what 358 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: signs did he exhibit, he would say there wasn't any sign. 359 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 2: So maybe there was just little signs because I knew 360 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: I was dealing with stuff, you know, I they knew 361 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 2: I was going to therapy and things like that, but 362 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 2: there was nothing that would jump out. Remember, I don't 363 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 2: I live in DC, I don't live in Kansas City. 364 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 2: And now I'm at his house and haven't been at 365 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: his house for a year, you know, because you know, 366 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 2: not only have I gon to therapy and all this 367 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: other stuff, So it wasn't like they had been around 368 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: me to know exactly what all my behaviors were anyway, 369 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: But had I completed that day, my family would have 370 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 2: had a hell of a lot of questions for the 371 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: rest of their life on what they would have missed. 372 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 2: But you know, thankfully, when my brother got that feeling 373 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 2: at work, when he called the house and I didn't answer, 374 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 2: and he rushed home and obviously found me. He said 375 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 2: I was semi conscious, but I don't remember none of that, 376 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 2: and then rushed me to the hospital and then obviously 377 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: they did their life saving procedures saved me. But I 378 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 2: took twenty two plus sleeping pills. They think, I don't 379 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 2: know the exact member I took, but I took well 380 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: over twenty so it would have killed me, you know, 381 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 2: Plus with the amount of alcohol that I was drinking. 382 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 2: And so when I wake up in the hospital from that, 383 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:59,959 Speaker 2: that was scared, because you know, I don't know what 384 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 2: got me to that point, and to this day that 385 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 2: still bothers me. I don't know, you. Just like I said, 386 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 2: everything just came together at once that I decided don't 387 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,479 Speaker 2: want to live no more. And when I woke up 388 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 2: in the hospital. That's why I said, I was scared 389 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: and feelful because I realized that wasn't the road you 390 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 2: wanted to go down. And I was lucky enough to 391 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: come back for that. Some people aren't, or some people 392 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 2: have such horrific injuries you know from their suicide attempt 393 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: that you know they can't function normal anymore. You just 394 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 2: like I said, everything just came together at once that 395 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: I decided then't want to live no more. And so 396 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,239 Speaker 2: I make it my life not to ever have all 397 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 2: those things come together again. Right now, I'll get up 398 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: and walk out of that room, or I'll get up 399 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: and change something, because I want to change the chain 400 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 2: reaction event that's going to happen. And I know what's 401 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: going to happen because I've been there, and I think 402 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: for anybody that survided a suicide attempt to understand that 403 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 2: or you know, had you know, ideations to that point, 404 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 2: and so you got to change those events. But the 405 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 2: biggest turning point for me when my drive back to Virginia. 406 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 2: That's when I made the conscious effort to go back 407 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: into counseling and be honest with my counsel Now, that 408 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: was a little difficult in his self because now because 409 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 2: I attempted my life, that hospital is now calling my 410 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: counselor in Virginia. And now he just realized that I've 411 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 2: been lying to him for the last six months seven months. 412 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 2: In my family, we didn't talk about culture. You just 413 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 2: you just you didn't do it. I never saw my 414 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: dad cry to the day that he died. 415 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 4: He just don't. 416 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: We just didn't do that. That's just something we didn't 417 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 2: do in my family. And so how do you learn 418 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 2: how to do something that you were grown up never doing. 419 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 2: It's it's hard. And so when I was into counseling 420 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 2: and I was doing all that, you know, I had 421 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 2: to learn learn to be okay with not being okay 422 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 2: and learn how to have a conversation with somebody instead 423 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 2: of getting to the point where you take a bunch 424 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 2: of sleeping pills and don't don't want to live. And sadly, 425 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 2: for me, it took a while. Nowadays, kids, you know, 426 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 2: they learn about it in school. My nieces and nephews 427 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 2: all learn about you know, nine to eleven and in school, 428 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 2: and then you know, you think, wow, I was there, 429 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 2: But I'm sure it's the same for you know, people 430 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 2: that were Pearl Harbor or other big events in history 431 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 2: that we're there. I mean, you look at it a 432 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: little bit differently, especially the you know, the people that 433 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 2: landed on D Day during World War Two. I couldn't imagine, 434 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 2: you know, going through that, but I'm sure when they 435 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,239 Speaker 2: were going through it, they didn't think about it, right, 436 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: You're just trying to complete the mission, and that's all 437 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 2: we were. We were trying to do. I don't watch 438 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 2: the news programs on it. I don't watch any TV 439 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 2: on nine to eleven. I do other things that bring 440 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: me joy. I don't think about it because I was there. 441 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: You know. 442 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 2: For me, I just do positive things now in that day, 443 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 2: and I think for a lot of people who's been 444 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 2: through trauma and maybe that anniversary has come around, you 445 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 2: learn how to do things that make you happy, that 446 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 2: bring yourself joy. And I think, and it's okay about that. 447 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 2: I don't need to watch, you know, movies or series 448 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 2: or or constantly replayed it by happening on nine to eleven. 449 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 2: I don't need to watch any of that because I 450 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 2: was there, so there's no reason for me to know. 451 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 2: I've not gone to the memorial. I don't I've never 452 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: been to the moilmoral so I think people feel guilty 453 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 2: about not doing that, and I did for a little while, 454 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: but then I realized, you know, it's okay to feel 455 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 2: that way when I go out and do my speaking 456 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: to events, or if I do anything I do say 457 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 2: that I am a suicide survivor because I think it's 458 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 2: important a lot of instances in life where you survive 459 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 2: things you don't understand where you survive it, And so 460 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 2: I wear it as a badge of courage to reduce 461 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 2: to stigma associated with that, and so I will no 462 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: longer be ashamed of that because that event has shaped 463 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 2: my life to what I am now. I think for 464 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,239 Speaker 2: people who have survives suicide, I think they look at 465 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 2: things different. 466 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 4: Right. 467 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 2: You want to go and enjoy life, you really want 468 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 2: to live again. 469 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Alive Again. Joining me for a conversation 470 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: about today's story. Are my other Alive Again story producers 471 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: Nicholas Dakowski and Brent Day, and I'm your host. 472 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 3: Dan Bush. 473 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: Another extremely powerful story. Can we can you just start 474 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: us off and tell us why you why you chose 475 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: this story. 476 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 5: There's a lot of things that attracted me to cliffs 477 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 5: st I'm former military, so that resonated with me. I've 478 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 5: suffered from suicidal ideation, and I had a lot of 479 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 5: curiosity about what the stress of being a first responder 480 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 5: does to to those who answer the call and go 481 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 5: in there. So it's pretty remarkable to find somebody who 482 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 5: had the experience that Cliff has had. 483 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: Like, there's a lot of stuff about Cliff's story that. 484 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 3: Is interesting to me. 485 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: And I'm interested because you're a military, you have a 486 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: military background yourself, Brent. I'm interested in how the culture 487 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: might have changed if if you know, after the nine 488 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: to eleven Pentagon attack, Cliff was, you know, did not 489 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,959 Speaker 1: feel comfortable expressing to his counselor to his coworkers that 490 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: he was having problems and difficulties, and then he was depressed, 491 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: and then he was having suicidal ideation because the culture 492 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: was not you know, because he was he had a 493 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: fear about losing his job, his military career, which is 494 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: sort of the stigma, and that's what apparently is part 495 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: of that culture. 496 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 5: Has it changed, Yeah, I would say that for my 497 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 5: suicidal ideation was never extreme, but it was there, but 498 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 5: it was different than Cliffs. I think mine was more 499 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 5: of maybe some kind of imbalance or something. Because I 500 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 5: would be feeling great, I'd go with my friends and 501 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 5: then I just have these really dark feelings that would 502 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 5: last for maybe three days. And I looked at it 503 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 5: almost like I'm going through this. I know I'm going 504 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 5: to pull through this at the end of this. But 505 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 5: I think when you're in the throes of those feelings, 506 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 5: it's very hard to express yourself for fear of how 507 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 5: people will look at you. Even now talking about it, 508 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 5: I think it's kind of like showing somebody a very 509 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 5: personal part of yourself. So I think, regardless of what 510 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 5: kind of career implications there might be, there's just also 511 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 5: a stigma. And particularly in the time I would in 512 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 5: the military in the eighties and I would have never 513 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 5: thought to talk to anybody about it at the time. 514 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 5: And I don't think I don't think just because of 515 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 5: the military. I think just society in general. It was 516 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 5: something you just didn't talk about. 517 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 6: How much do you think that that culture of the 518 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 6: military feeds into that. I mean, I know that the 519 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 6: military deals with is getting better at dealing with the repercussions, 520 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 6: but do you think that the actual culture has changed 521 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 6: enough to be able to really purb that before it happens. 522 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 5: That certainly wasn't my experience in the military, you know. 523 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 5: I mean, they definitely demand discipline, they definitely demand unit cohesion, 524 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 5: But my friends ran the gamut. There were a lot 525 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 5: of real thoughtful, sensitive people who were serving their country, 526 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 5: and Cliff is an example of that. I mean, he's 527 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 5: somebody who is very in touch with his feelings, able 528 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 5: to express them. But what he was going through was 529 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 5: post traumatic stress disorder he was strictly dealing with. Every 530 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 5: time he closed his eyes, he was seeing a movie 531 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 5: of devastation that none of us can imagine. And I 532 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 5: think his story says a lot about the willingness of 533 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,479 Speaker 5: people to put on their boots and put on their 534 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 5: uniform and serve this country and exposing themselves to things 535 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 5: that he said. There were fire fighters there, there were 536 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 5: military personnel there who had served in Iraq who were 537 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 5: not prepared for what they saw. And he did not 538 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 5: go into any detail of what he saw, and I 539 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 5: think there's enough that you can imagine. When an airplane 540 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 5: implodes inside of a building, killing all aboard the plane 541 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 5: and killing several people working in the building, You're going 542 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 5: to stumble upon things that are going to be difficult 543 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 5: to raise from your memory. Absolutely, I think it was. 544 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 5: And again I haven't been in the military since the eighties, 545 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 5: but I think it was more for me. Society at 546 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,719 Speaker 5: large wasn't ready to talk about suicidal ideation. Society at 547 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 5: large would consider you're considered weird, not even like a weakness, 548 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 5: but just weird, you know. And and there's been great, 549 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 5: great strides taken, you know, and you know, Cliff has 550 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 5: devoted his life to helping veterans address this this scourge, 551 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 5: this this desire to kill yourself. And yet he says 552 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 5: he still has post traumatic stress disorder, he still has 553 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 5: to take himself out of those situations where the ideation surfaces, 554 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 5: you know. And he says, sometimes it's as simple as 555 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 5: just leaving the room, going somewhere else, you know. And 556 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 5: I think, yeah, I think it might be kind of 557 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 5: like like alcoholism or something. It's something maybe you never 558 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:46,959 Speaker 5: rid yourself. 559 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: It's interesting, Brent, because you're you know, you're not yours 560 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily part of some post traumatic stress situation or 561 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: as a result of that. But what Cliff talked about 562 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: that I thought was fascinating was this slippery slope. So 563 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: it was this It wasn't any one thing. It was 564 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: the combination of things, the isolation, not feeling like you 565 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: can share this or talk to anybody about it. Every 566 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: time he closed his eyes or went to sleep at night, 567 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: there was this loop that would start to play in 568 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: his head of the people that he wasn't able to 569 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: to save, and that led to the self medication and 570 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: drinking in order to sort of gum down those voices 571 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: in his head. So he's isolated, he's self medicating, and 572 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: then before you know it, he just happens to be 573 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: in a house that he knows has a gun, and 574 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: it's just a combination of events, and now he's able 575 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: to look at this and go remove any one of 576 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: those events, stop the chain reaction in the snowball effect 577 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: before it happens, even if you just get up and 578 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: walk out of the room, like identifying the triggers and 579 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: identifying the things as are happening as a major sort 580 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: of way to to to preserve one's life, you know, 581 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: against all of this, but I do think that it 582 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: points to this. I'm wondering if this if there is 583 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: been movement either in the military or if you guys 584 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: think there is an in our own society of a 585 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: willingness to talk about you know, I feel like so 586 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: many generations go off to war in America or go 587 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: off to some even if it's not. 588 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 3: Called a war. They'll go after those, whether it's. 589 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: You know, in Panama or whether it's in Iraq or wherever, 590 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: then and come back and there's not a lot It 591 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: seems to me that there's still not a lot of 592 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,959 Speaker 1: dialogue or openness about being able to talk about what 593 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: that experience was. And for me, it makes me mad 594 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: because I'm like, well, of course we don't want to 595 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: talk about it, because then we're not going to ever 596 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: go do it. And I personally feel like a lot 597 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: of the corporations that make a lot of money off 598 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: of warfare and so forth, it's not in their interest 599 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: to have these things talked about. 600 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 3: Like, you know, the the idea. 601 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: The narrative of this of this brave American you know, 602 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: who's fighting for freedom is the one that they want 603 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: to promote. There's nothing wrong with that, but you also 604 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: have to balance that against the you know, the consequences. 605 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: And I wonder if we're doing enough for our military. 606 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, they're they're they're I think there's I 607 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 5: think there's a lot of misconceptions about the military, but 608 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 5: I think there's a lot of truth. And what you 609 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 5: just said about our society doesn't really treat them. You know, 610 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 5: there's there's countless homeless veterans, there's countless suicide. There's been 611 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 5: an epidemic of suicide among veterans. You know, you can 612 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 5: look at how hard John Stewart had to work to 613 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 5: get Congress to pass a bill to give funding to 614 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 5: support the first responders on nine to eleven who went 615 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 5: into the World Trade and World Trade Center. So we talk, 616 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 5: we talk about the heroic service of these people who 617 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 5: serve for us. But you're right, I do think that, 618 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 5: you know, you would think if you're willing to lay 619 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 5: your life on the line like that, you wouldn't be 620 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 5: sleeping on the street, that there would be resources for 621 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 5: you when you come home, you know. And I think 622 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 5: I think we can do better for our veterans, for sure. 623 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 5: And I don't think the story is necessarily a story 624 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 5: about toxic masculinity or our perceptions of the military industrial complex. 625 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 5: I think it's a story about people being willing to 626 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 5: put themselves in these extreme situations for the better of 627 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 5: our country. I think what Cliff did in trying to 628 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 5: help find survivors in the Pentagon of nine to eleven 629 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 5: was a tremendous service to the rest of the country. 630 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 3: And I think. 631 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 5: And then and then being able to take what Cliff 632 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 5: has learned from this for anybody, whether you're in the 633 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 5: military or not, and understand the trigger that there are 634 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 5: triggers that you will encounter that could put you back 635 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 5: into the place of suicidal ideation, and to make a 636 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 5: plan for addressing that in advance so that when you're 637 00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 5: in that spot. 638 00:33:59,280 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 3: It points to. 639 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: A cultural phenomenon where we don't like to talk about it. 640 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: We don't want to talk about the horrors of war. 641 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 1: We don't want to talk about what these people experience, 642 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: and we don't want them to talk about it, and 643 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: we don't want hell, even death, we don't want to. 644 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 3: Talk about death. 645 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: We're obsessed with youth in this company, we're in this country. 646 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: We're obsessed with hero right, Yeah, it was a fortieth flip, 647 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: but these the heroism and and all of that, we 648 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: will talk about that till blue in the face. But 649 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: to talk about the trauma and the you know, the 650 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: damage that it does to the soul. We're just not 651 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: ready to talk about that, and nobody and it's hard. 652 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: I think that that is one of the things that 653 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: is an isolating factor for those. 654 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 3: Who have experienced these sorts of traumas. 655 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I was in the military, and I 656 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 5: would think it was more of an issue societally at 657 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 5: that time where you wouldn't talk about it, and I 658 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 5: think now you would now. And I think I felt 659 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 5: taken care of by my battalion. I felt that the 660 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 5: commander of my battalion had my best interests at heart. 661 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 5: And I think everybody's experience is different. It's like working 662 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 5: at different corporations. Some really care about their employees, some 663 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 5: do not. You know, so maybe maybe one commander of 664 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 5: a unit would could care less about his troops, maybe 665 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 5: another one's going to take really good care of him. 666 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 5: But I felt very well taken care of when I 667 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 5: was in the service. And I think what Cliff is 668 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 5: doing to raise awareness of suicidal triggers and how to 669 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 5: overcome them, I think whether you're in the military or not, 670 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 5: I mean, it's a great service that he's doing. 671 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: Did he say that that that, I mean, that's what 672 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm interested in. I'm not trying to point any figure 673 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: figures are be accusatory of something I don't know anything about, 674 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: but I wanted to see if Cliff himself had mentioned, 675 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, what did he say about the changes either 676 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 1: due to what you know from his efforts and efforts 677 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,959 Speaker 1: of other people like him, either in culture at large 678 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: or in the military, to. 679 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 3: Change the narrative or to change you know, the. 680 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: Culture so that we are open to talk about this 681 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: without fear of losing our military career. 682 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 5: Yeah, it just seems like it was a gradual thing. 683 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 5: You know, he was very worried about, you know, and 684 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 5: as I think in the year two thousand and one, 685 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 5: if you were working in a corporation and you said 686 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 5: you were having suicidal ideation, they may find a reason 687 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 5: to fire you. I just don't think society was comfortable 688 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 5: talking about it at the time. 689 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 3: Does he feel like that's changing? 690 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think so. And I think because 691 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 5: of work that people like himself are doing, and I 692 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 5: think because of societal changes that are making it easier 693 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 5: to talk about mental health. Hopefully society is getting a 694 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 5: little more understanding of the different experiences that people are having, 695 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 5: you know, whether it's your identity or whether it's your 696 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 5: mental health or whether it's suicidal ideation, or you know, 697 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:03,919 Speaker 5: I do feel like we live in a much more 698 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 5: open society now than maybe we did twenty three years. 699 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 3: Ago, you know sure. 700 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 5: And I think it's because people like Cliff go through 701 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 5: something and they say, I don't want somebody else to 702 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 5: experience this, and I want them to know life is 703 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 5: worth living. And here are the tools I used to 704 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 5: get out of it, and the tools I will continue 705 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 5: to use to address it when those feelings come back. 706 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,399 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Cliff Bowman for sharing his story. If 707 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,320 Speaker 1: you are a veteran dealing with depression or suicidal ideation, 708 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: Cliff encourages you to check out the Veterans Trash Talk 709 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: podcast for support. We also very much encourage contacting the 710 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,879 Speaker 1: National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight hundred two seven 711 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,240 Speaker 1: three talk. That's one eight hundred two seven. 712 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 3: Three t alk. 713 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: Next time I'm Alive again, we meet Amanda Clear. In 714 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, Amanda slammed her accurate into the 715 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 1: back of a stopped tractor trailer. 716 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 4: It's your body's way of protecting itself, right, So I 717 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 4: protect myself now, write my brain, not allowing itself to 718 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 4: remember all of the horrific details, and I protected myself 719 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 4: then by screaming and flailing and kicking. It's that fight, 720 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 4: in the fight or flight, it started to feel like 721 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 4: a SOB story. I no longer wanted to tell a 722 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 4: story of tragedy, that I was the victim, not the hero, 723 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 4: and I am the hero of my own story. 724 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: The wreck which nearly killed her required fifteen hours of 725 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: facial reconstructive. 726 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 3: Surgery and set her on a new path. 727 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: Her story is one of real transformation and of fully 728 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: embracing the person that she has become. Our story producers 729 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: are Dan Bush, Kate Sweeney, Brent Die, Nicholas Dakowski, and 730 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,839 Speaker 1: Lauren Vogelbaum. Music by Ben Lovett, Music by Alexander Rodriguez. 731 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,760 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Matthew Frederick and Trevor Young. Special 732 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,720 Speaker 1: thanks to Alexander Williams for additional production support. Our studio 733 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: engineers are Rima L. K Ali and Noames Griffin. Our 734 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: editors are Dan Bush, Gerhart Slavitchca, Brent Die, and Alexander Rodriguez. 735 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: Mixing by Ben Lovett and Alexander Rodriguez. I'm your Host, 736 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: Dan Bush Alive Again is a production of i Art 737 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: Radio and Psychopia Pictures. If you have a transformative near 738 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: death experience to share, we'd love to hear your story. 739 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: Please email us at Alive Again Project at gmail dot com. 740 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: That's a l i v e A g A I 741 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: N p R O j e c t at gmail 742 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: dot com.