1 00:00:15,564 --> 00:00:24,244 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Maria Kannakova and. 2 00:00:24,204 --> 00:00:27,284 Speaker 2: I'm Nate Silver. Welcome to Risky Business. 3 00:00:27,164 --> 00:00:31,044 Speaker 1: A show about making better decisions. This is our first 4 00:00:31,084 --> 00:00:33,164 Speaker 1: episode of the show, so I want to give you 5 00:00:33,164 --> 00:00:35,444 Speaker 1: a little taste of the types of topics you can 6 00:00:35,444 --> 00:00:39,084 Speaker 1: expect from us going forward. So we'll obviously be talking 7 00:00:39,084 --> 00:00:42,564 Speaker 1: about politics and the elections since this is a major 8 00:00:42,604 --> 00:00:45,084 Speaker 1: election year. We'll be talking about poker, We'll be talking 9 00:00:45,124 --> 00:00:48,044 Speaker 1: about the news, and of course we're going to be 10 00:00:48,044 --> 00:00:50,404 Speaker 1: talking about personal decisions. Right, how do you take this 11 00:00:50,644 --> 00:00:53,164 Speaker 1: framework and make decisions in our day. 12 00:00:53,004 --> 00:00:56,044 Speaker 2: To day lives conveniently almost as that we've planned this 13 00:00:56,124 --> 00:00:58,644 Speaker 2: in advance. Our first show will cover all three of 14 00:00:58,644 --> 00:01:01,444 Speaker 2: these areas. We'll have reflect with Maria on our recent 15 00:01:01,444 --> 00:01:03,964 Speaker 2: poker success she had. We'll do a segment on RFK 16 00:01:04,124 --> 00:01:07,364 Speaker 2: Junior and his effect on the presidential election, and we'll 17 00:01:07,364 --> 00:01:09,724 Speaker 2: talk about Caitlin Clark and the economics of the pay 18 00:01:09,764 --> 00:01:11,044 Speaker 2: gap and the WNBA. 19 00:01:12,124 --> 00:01:15,564 Speaker 1: So, Nate, let's get into it. 20 00:01:23,044 --> 00:01:25,364 Speaker 2: So, Maria, was it last week? It's all kind of 21 00:01:25,364 --> 00:01:27,444 Speaker 2: blurring together, but I think last week we were making 22 00:01:27,484 --> 00:01:32,044 Speaker 2: the official Twitter slash social media announcement about Risky Business, 23 00:01:32,044 --> 00:01:37,524 Speaker 2: the podcast and you were absent from that cluster of 24 00:01:38,444 --> 00:01:40,164 Speaker 2: information we wanted to spit out because you were at 25 00:01:40,204 --> 00:01:42,764 Speaker 2: the final table of a poker tournament. Good excuse, I 26 00:01:42,764 --> 00:01:44,284 Speaker 2: guess tell us more about that. 27 00:01:44,484 --> 00:01:48,404 Speaker 1: Absolutely. So I was at EPT Monte Carlo, which is 28 00:01:48,804 --> 00:01:51,484 Speaker 1: one of the flagship stops of the European Poker Tour, 29 00:01:51,524 --> 00:01:54,964 Speaker 1: which is a Poker Stars event, and I was playing 30 00:01:55,084 --> 00:01:59,724 Speaker 1: in the one euro side event and it was going 31 00:01:59,764 --> 00:02:03,444 Speaker 1: pretty well. So at the time that I saw your 32 00:02:03,484 --> 00:02:06,404 Speaker 1: emails and all of these announcements going back and forth, 33 00:02:06,844 --> 00:02:08,964 Speaker 1: I was actually in the middle of a redraw for 34 00:02:09,004 --> 00:02:11,964 Speaker 1: the final table and we were finally down to nine players. 35 00:02:12,764 --> 00:02:15,804 Speaker 1: So I had, you know, a few brief moments to 36 00:02:15,884 --> 00:02:18,004 Speaker 1: check my email when I saw of this and had 37 00:02:18,044 --> 00:02:21,484 Speaker 1: to respond to you guys that. Unfortunately, I was going 38 00:02:21,564 --> 00:02:24,964 Speaker 1: to have to be focused and not actually be paying 39 00:02:25,004 --> 00:02:28,404 Speaker 1: attention to any social media announcements because final table is 40 00:02:28,404 --> 00:02:29,164 Speaker 1: a pretty big deal. 41 00:02:29,644 --> 00:02:30,724 Speaker 2: How much were you playing for? 42 00:02:31,124 --> 00:02:33,924 Speaker 1: So first place was, and this is all in euros, 43 00:02:34,604 --> 00:02:37,044 Speaker 1: was eighty three thousand, one hundred and eighty euros, so 44 00:02:37,084 --> 00:02:41,164 Speaker 1: that's almost ninety thousand dollars and ninth yeah, not bad. 45 00:02:41,244 --> 00:02:43,284 Speaker 1: And then ninth place, which would be you know you're 46 00:02:43,324 --> 00:02:46,204 Speaker 1: the first one out at the final table was eight 47 00:02:46,884 --> 00:02:50,964 Speaker 1: nine hundred euros, so that's just over nine thousand dollars. 48 00:02:51,084 --> 00:02:52,844 Speaker 1: So that's a pretty big difference. 49 00:02:52,924 --> 00:02:54,404 Speaker 2: That's why you weren't answering your emails. 50 00:02:54,884 --> 00:02:57,124 Speaker 1: That is why I was not answering your egail. 51 00:02:57,164 --> 00:02:58,964 Speaker 2: You can be bought off for that is correct. 52 00:02:59,044 --> 00:03:02,804 Speaker 1: Date, I had to be very much paying attention. 53 00:03:03,084 --> 00:03:05,524 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think people in poker and neglect the importance 54 00:03:05,524 --> 00:03:08,244 Speaker 2: so focused sometimes because it's such a there's a lot 55 00:03:08,244 --> 00:03:10,964 Speaker 2: of noise, right, I mean it's in any given final table, 56 00:03:11,044 --> 00:03:13,764 Speaker 2: it's kind of mostly luck. But like if you go 57 00:03:13,884 --> 00:03:17,964 Speaker 2: jogging or running right and you're really hungover, you notice 58 00:03:18,004 --> 00:03:20,404 Speaker 2: the effect on your time, Right, there's no noise there 59 00:03:20,684 --> 00:03:23,644 Speaker 2: in the data in poker, you don't, But like, tell 60 00:03:23,644 --> 00:03:27,524 Speaker 2: me more about the importance of focus of shutting out distractions, 61 00:03:27,644 --> 00:03:30,164 Speaker 2: especially in a high stakes moment like this. 62 00:03:31,084 --> 00:03:33,924 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think that you really really need 63 00:03:33,964 --> 00:03:37,644 Speaker 1: to be fully present because normally during a poker tournament, right, 64 00:03:37,644 --> 00:03:40,244 Speaker 1: this tournament started with around six hundred players. I don't 65 00:03:40,284 --> 00:03:41,964 Speaker 1: remember if it was a few fewer than that or 66 00:03:42,004 --> 00:03:44,444 Speaker 1: a few more, but around six hundred, right, So at 67 00:03:44,444 --> 00:03:47,324 Speaker 1: that point you're sitting at a full table, and I'm 68 00:03:47,364 --> 00:03:49,204 Speaker 1: not going to say you can phone it in, but 69 00:03:49,284 --> 00:03:52,004 Speaker 1: you don't have to always give it one hundred percent 70 00:03:52,044 --> 00:03:54,204 Speaker 1: of your focus, because a lot of poker is actually 71 00:03:54,204 --> 00:03:56,044 Speaker 1: pretty boring, right. You don't play a lot of hands, 72 00:03:56,044 --> 00:03:57,724 Speaker 1: you have to fold a lot, you get a lot 73 00:03:57,764 --> 00:04:00,124 Speaker 1: of shitty hands, and you don't actually want to be 74 00:04:00,204 --> 00:04:02,924 Speaker 1: tempted to play those. So a lot of the time 75 00:04:03,004 --> 00:04:05,924 Speaker 1: you have down time. And of course I'd love to 76 00:04:05,924 --> 00:04:08,684 Speaker 1: say that I'm one of those players with laser focus 77 00:04:08,684 --> 00:04:10,844 Speaker 1: who never has my phone at the table, who is 78 00:04:10,884 --> 00:04:14,244 Speaker 1: always one hundred percent present, but that is simply not true. 79 00:04:14,324 --> 00:04:16,764 Speaker 1: I mean, I would be just absolutely lying if I 80 00:04:16,804 --> 00:04:19,084 Speaker 1: said that, And I think it's just very difficult for 81 00:04:19,124 --> 00:04:21,204 Speaker 1: the human brain to do that. I've actually written a lot. 82 00:04:21,244 --> 00:04:24,404 Speaker 1: My first book was about mindfulness and presence and focus 83 00:04:24,804 --> 00:04:27,804 Speaker 1: and the importance of that and decision making. And one 84 00:04:27,844 --> 00:04:30,804 Speaker 1: of the things you find is that's incredibly, incredibly taxing 85 00:04:30,844 --> 00:04:34,524 Speaker 1: for the brain because the brain in its default state wanders, 86 00:04:34,964 --> 00:04:38,564 Speaker 1: and so it takes a lot of effort to focus, 87 00:04:38,924 --> 00:04:41,804 Speaker 1: and so you have to save that effort for the 88 00:04:41,844 --> 00:04:44,764 Speaker 1: moments when it really matters. And the final table is 89 00:04:44,844 --> 00:04:48,524 Speaker 1: one of those moments because you're playing for really high 90 00:04:48,524 --> 00:04:53,044 Speaker 1: stakes and all of a sudden, every single pay jump matters. 91 00:04:53,404 --> 00:04:56,244 Speaker 1: It matters if I'm out in ninth place versus eighth place, 92 00:04:56,324 --> 00:04:59,444 Speaker 1: versus seventh, versus six. And just to add to the 93 00:04:59,524 --> 00:05:02,564 Speaker 1: drama of this particular final table, I had had a really, 94 00:05:02,564 --> 00:05:05,604 Speaker 1: really shitty series up to that point, and I knew 95 00:05:05,684 --> 00:05:08,244 Speaker 1: that in order to kind of dig myself out from 96 00:05:08,324 --> 00:05:10,884 Speaker 1: the hole that I was in financially, I needed to 97 00:05:10,884 --> 00:05:13,084 Speaker 1: place third or better. That was the only way that 98 00:05:13,124 --> 00:05:15,924 Speaker 1: I would make money on this tournament, and damned if 99 00:05:15,964 --> 00:05:18,604 Speaker 1: I was going to let anything distract me from doing that. 100 00:05:18,764 --> 00:05:21,044 Speaker 2: One thing, too, is you kind of can't even like 101 00:05:21,924 --> 00:05:24,484 Speaker 2: fake the focus part. There's a long discussion about this 102 00:05:24,524 --> 00:05:28,004 Speaker 2: in my forthcoming book On the Edge. We're actually talked 103 00:05:28,044 --> 00:05:30,444 Speaker 2: about an experience we had playing together Maria in the 104 00:05:30,444 --> 00:05:34,244 Speaker 2: Bahamas where we were playing the twenty five k PSPC 105 00:05:34,764 --> 00:05:36,804 Speaker 2: first time I played a twenty five thousand dollars tournament, 106 00:05:36,804 --> 00:05:40,284 Speaker 2: and like, I was just really wired more than I 107 00:05:40,324 --> 00:05:42,844 Speaker 2: wanted to be. You know, you're feeling your heart rate 108 00:05:42,964 --> 00:05:46,364 Speaker 2: escalate a little bit, and when you're at a final table, 109 00:05:46,444 --> 00:05:51,444 Speaker 2: then you are just inherently more in the zone, more 110 00:05:51,524 --> 00:05:54,644 Speaker 2: alert that can be tuned too high. Sometimes. Part of 111 00:05:54,684 --> 00:05:57,244 Speaker 2: the benefit of experience playing poker is that you know 112 00:05:57,284 --> 00:06:00,004 Speaker 2: how to deal with that extra awareness and stress that 113 00:06:00,044 --> 00:06:03,324 Speaker 2: you have. But you can't fake being interested on day 114 00:06:03,364 --> 00:06:07,404 Speaker 2: one of some tiny buy in event two hundred blinds deep, right, 115 00:06:07,564 --> 00:06:11,244 Speaker 2: but look, did you have any cool hands that you played? 116 00:06:11,524 --> 00:06:15,084 Speaker 1: I did have one, specific, one very cool hand, which 117 00:06:15,164 --> 00:06:19,164 Speaker 1: really I think illustrates a lot of the principles of 118 00:06:19,164 --> 00:06:21,684 Speaker 1: a final table. So I came into the final table 119 00:06:22,444 --> 00:06:25,524 Speaker 1: as one of the shorter stacks, so there were a 120 00:06:25,524 --> 00:06:28,124 Speaker 1: lot of people who had more chips than I do. 121 00:06:29,244 --> 00:06:33,284 Speaker 1: And let's say, for a second just kind of do 122 00:06:33,404 --> 00:06:38,124 Speaker 1: a little asterisk and talk about how that changes when 123 00:06:38,164 --> 00:06:40,124 Speaker 1: you're kind of at the beginning stages of a tournament 124 00:06:40,204 --> 00:06:43,204 Speaker 1: versus the final table. So, because as I mentioned before, 125 00:06:43,204 --> 00:06:46,044 Speaker 1: there are these huge pay jumps, and you know, the 126 00:06:46,564 --> 00:06:50,004 Speaker 1: monetary value really shifts depending on which place you get. 127 00:06:50,364 --> 00:06:54,724 Speaker 1: Your chips are no longer worth what just what they 128 00:06:54,804 --> 00:06:58,284 Speaker 1: say they are, and the ranges meaning the hands that 129 00:06:58,324 --> 00:07:01,764 Speaker 1: you play change, how aggressive you want to be changes, 130 00:07:02,084 --> 00:07:05,524 Speaker 1: and your strategy really really changes depending on whether you're 131 00:07:05,524 --> 00:07:08,684 Speaker 1: a short stack, a middle stack, or a chip leader, right, 132 00:07:08,724 --> 00:07:11,804 Speaker 1: whether you have a ton of chips. And the cool 133 00:07:11,844 --> 00:07:15,804 Speaker 1: thing about my situation when I was the short stack 134 00:07:16,244 --> 00:07:19,764 Speaker 1: is like I'm in last place anyway, so I can 135 00:07:19,804 --> 00:07:22,164 Speaker 1: take risks and I can actually put a lot of 136 00:07:22,204 --> 00:07:25,924 Speaker 1: pressure on other people because I still have enough chips 137 00:07:25,924 --> 00:07:29,124 Speaker 1: that I can really really put a dent in what 138 00:07:29,164 --> 00:07:31,324 Speaker 1: they're doing. So at this stage of the tournament, I 139 00:07:31,404 --> 00:07:33,884 Speaker 1: think there were eight of us left and I started 140 00:07:33,924 --> 00:07:37,404 Speaker 1: the hand with I think seventeen big blinds. Big blinds 141 00:07:37,484 --> 00:07:39,524 Speaker 1: are kind of those fource bets that you have to 142 00:07:39,564 --> 00:07:43,564 Speaker 1: make blind to get some action going. So the number 143 00:07:43,564 --> 00:07:45,844 Speaker 1: of biglindes is just a good way to gauge how 144 00:07:45,884 --> 00:07:48,524 Speaker 1: long you can go right without without playing a hand 145 00:07:48,844 --> 00:07:51,924 Speaker 1: and how long you can survive. So I was in 146 00:07:52,044 --> 00:07:55,884 Speaker 1: first position, first to act, and I had ace king, 147 00:07:56,164 --> 00:07:57,484 Speaker 1: which is a really strong hand. 148 00:07:57,644 --> 00:08:00,324 Speaker 2: So you're in here's a test through which are our 149 00:08:00,404 --> 00:08:03,484 Speaker 2: audience members know about poker? You're in first position. That 150 00:08:03,564 --> 00:08:06,004 Speaker 2: must be really good. You always want to be first. 151 00:08:06,764 --> 00:08:09,804 Speaker 1: What an interesting question, Nate. That is actually it's the 152 00:08:09,804 --> 00:08:14,644 Speaker 1: polar opposite. So in poker and in decision making in general, 153 00:08:14,724 --> 00:08:18,004 Speaker 1: this is actually a really really crucial point position, really 154 00:08:18,044 --> 00:08:21,524 Speaker 1: really matters, and you actually want to be the last 155 00:08:21,564 --> 00:08:24,084 Speaker 1: person to act. You want to be the last person 156 00:08:24,124 --> 00:08:26,884 Speaker 1: to make the decision, which means you're in position. If 157 00:08:26,924 --> 00:08:28,844 Speaker 1: you're in position, that means you get to see all 158 00:08:28,924 --> 00:08:31,564 Speaker 1: the information beforehand and then you get to act. If 159 00:08:31,604 --> 00:08:33,524 Speaker 1: you're out of position, that means that you have to 160 00:08:33,564 --> 00:08:36,524 Speaker 1: go first, right, you choose what to do, but then 161 00:08:36,604 --> 00:08:39,084 Speaker 1: all these other people see that and they have more 162 00:08:39,124 --> 00:08:41,444 Speaker 1: information and they get to make a decision after you. 163 00:08:41,924 --> 00:08:43,884 Speaker 1: So if you think about away from the poker table, 164 00:08:43,924 --> 00:08:46,364 Speaker 1: like if you're in a salary negotiation, you do not 165 00:08:46,484 --> 00:08:48,044 Speaker 1: want to throw out the first number. 166 00:08:48,404 --> 00:08:52,044 Speaker 2: Say you're negotiating terms for a new podcast about decision making. 167 00:08:52,204 --> 00:08:55,804 Speaker 1: Exactly, you want the other person to make the first offer, 168 00:08:56,124 --> 00:08:59,844 Speaker 1: right because you do not want to accidentally low ball 169 00:08:59,924 --> 00:09:02,204 Speaker 1: yourself or you know, you just you just want to 170 00:09:02,244 --> 00:09:05,044 Speaker 1: know what the other person is thinking and then be 171 00:09:05,124 --> 00:09:08,924 Speaker 1: able to respond to that. And so the positional advantages 172 00:09:08,964 --> 00:09:11,884 Speaker 1: in poker are huge. So when you're in an early position, 173 00:09:12,084 --> 00:09:14,644 Speaker 1: right when you're acting first, you have to actually be 174 00:09:14,724 --> 00:09:17,084 Speaker 1: much more selective with the hand you play, and you 175 00:09:17,164 --> 00:09:20,364 Speaker 1: have to be much more cautious because so many things 176 00:09:20,364 --> 00:09:22,764 Speaker 1: can still happen. And I say this over and over, 177 00:09:23,124 --> 00:09:26,084 Speaker 1: whether it's in poker or in decision making, because we're 178 00:09:26,124 --> 00:09:29,844 Speaker 1: always playing games of incomplete information. Right, information is key. 179 00:09:30,124 --> 00:09:33,884 Speaker 1: Information is power. The person with the most information has 180 00:09:33,924 --> 00:09:37,164 Speaker 1: the edge, and so you want the edge and acting 181 00:09:37,204 --> 00:09:40,844 Speaker 1: first ate it. So in this particular case, though, I 182 00:09:40,884 --> 00:09:42,564 Speaker 1: have an amazing hand, so I'm going to open it. 183 00:09:42,804 --> 00:09:45,564 Speaker 1: So that's what I do. And then two people who 184 00:09:45,604 --> 00:09:48,524 Speaker 1: are acting after me decide that they're going to call, 185 00:09:48,764 --> 00:09:50,924 Speaker 1: and they're both going to have position on me in 186 00:09:50,964 --> 00:09:54,804 Speaker 1: the hand, So middle position calls and the button calls, 187 00:09:54,844 --> 00:09:57,084 Speaker 1: and then the blinds fold. So what this means is 188 00:09:57,084 --> 00:09:58,924 Speaker 1: that the only other two people in the hand are 189 00:09:58,924 --> 00:10:01,804 Speaker 1: actually going to be deciding after me. And it's three ways, 190 00:10:01,884 --> 00:10:03,564 Speaker 1: so that means that there's three of us, which means 191 00:10:03,644 --> 00:10:06,604 Speaker 1: multi way, which is much more difficult to play. All right, 192 00:10:06,764 --> 00:10:10,524 Speaker 1: So here we are ace King. Two people call and 193 00:10:10,684 --> 00:10:13,244 Speaker 1: we get a flop, which is the first three community 194 00:10:13,284 --> 00:10:16,124 Speaker 1: cards that everyone can see, and they are a Queen, 195 00:10:16,244 --> 00:10:20,324 Speaker 1: a ten, and an eight and rainbow, and rainbow means 196 00:10:20,724 --> 00:10:25,324 Speaker 1: that there are three different suits, so no possibility of 197 00:10:25,364 --> 00:10:25,884 Speaker 1: a flush drawn. 198 00:10:26,004 --> 00:10:28,284 Speaker 2: None of the cards match your cards, Maria. 199 00:10:27,724 --> 00:10:32,364 Speaker 1: That is bad Nate. So I decide to check, which 200 00:10:32,404 --> 00:10:35,524 Speaker 1: is always a really really good decision when there are 201 00:10:35,564 --> 00:10:38,844 Speaker 1: lots of people acting after you. And what checking means 202 00:10:39,004 --> 00:10:41,284 Speaker 1: is I just say I'm not going to act now. 203 00:10:41,364 --> 00:10:43,484 Speaker 1: I check to you, and you can do what you 204 00:10:43,524 --> 00:10:47,284 Speaker 1: want to do. And so I check, and the middle 205 00:10:47,284 --> 00:10:49,644 Speaker 1: position player decides to bet, and he bets pretty big. 206 00:10:49,684 --> 00:10:53,244 Speaker 1: He bets four big lines and the button. So the 207 00:10:53,244 --> 00:10:56,964 Speaker 1: other player in the hand calls, and so here I am. 208 00:10:57,084 --> 00:11:02,524 Speaker 1: And at this point we have nine big lines in 209 00:11:02,564 --> 00:11:05,644 Speaker 1: the pot right starting to start the hand, plus the 210 00:11:05,644 --> 00:11:10,004 Speaker 1: eight that just went in, So that is so right, 211 00:11:10,044 --> 00:11:12,484 Speaker 1: that's that's my stack because I had bet two before 212 00:11:12,484 --> 00:11:16,724 Speaker 1: the before the flow. So basically this is huge. And 213 00:11:16,844 --> 00:11:20,244 Speaker 1: what do I do right? If I call, there are 214 00:11:20,284 --> 00:11:24,804 Speaker 1: still two people behind me, and it's a really huge 215 00:11:24,884 --> 00:11:26,484 Speaker 1: chunk of what I have left, and I'm going to 216 00:11:26,484 --> 00:11:28,524 Speaker 1: be in a really bad position if I don't improve. 217 00:11:29,164 --> 00:11:31,924 Speaker 1: And so I decide to run a big bluff or 218 00:11:32,004 --> 00:11:35,444 Speaker 1: semi bluff because I could improve, and I decide to 219 00:11:35,484 --> 00:11:37,844 Speaker 1: shove all my chips in the middle. I go all in. 220 00:11:38,684 --> 00:11:42,284 Speaker 1: And that's a very risky play because if either one 221 00:11:42,324 --> 00:11:44,204 Speaker 1: of them has anything and calls me, I'm out of 222 00:11:44,204 --> 00:11:46,684 Speaker 1: the tournament. They both have more chips than I do. 223 00:11:47,604 --> 00:11:49,244 Speaker 2: Or you make your or you hit your jack or 224 00:11:49,244 --> 00:11:52,364 Speaker 2: I hit my jack. Right, we call it a semi 225 00:11:52,364 --> 00:11:55,644 Speaker 2: bluff because there are some ways. You know, the jack 226 00:11:55,644 --> 00:11:57,804 Speaker 2: always makes you the best hand. You can sometimes hit 227 00:11:58,084 --> 00:12:02,324 Speaker 2: two kings in a row. Occasionally one acer king makes 228 00:12:02,324 --> 00:12:05,404 Speaker 2: you the best hand. Yep, So you have some equity 229 00:12:05,404 --> 00:12:06,124 Speaker 2: in the podos I do. 230 00:12:06,204 --> 00:12:08,404 Speaker 1: I do have some equity, and I also have some 231 00:12:08,524 --> 00:12:12,124 Speaker 1: fold equity, meaning I still have enough chips that my 232 00:12:12,364 --> 00:12:15,084 Speaker 1: shove puts a lot of pressure on them. Right, So 233 00:12:15,124 --> 00:12:17,484 Speaker 1: it's not like I'm shoving for four big blinds, which 234 00:12:17,524 --> 00:12:20,124 Speaker 1: is what they already bet right, I'm shoving for a 235 00:12:20,164 --> 00:12:24,564 Speaker 1: substantial amount more and the middle position player just folds instantly, 236 00:12:24,884 --> 00:12:28,604 Speaker 1: which I was kind of relying on. So at a 237 00:12:28,644 --> 00:12:31,564 Speaker 1: final table, especially, you will have been playing with these 238 00:12:31,604 --> 00:12:35,004 Speaker 1: players for a long time several days in this case, 239 00:12:35,204 --> 00:12:37,204 Speaker 1: and so you get to know their tendencies and how 240 00:12:37,244 --> 00:12:40,164 Speaker 1: they play a lot more, and so you can make 241 00:12:40,244 --> 00:12:45,844 Speaker 1: decisions that are much more fine tuned to these specific players. 242 00:12:46,204 --> 00:12:49,244 Speaker 1: And so I knew that this middle position player was 243 00:12:49,244 --> 00:12:52,124 Speaker 1: a recreational player who didn't really know what he was 244 00:12:52,164 --> 00:12:57,444 Speaker 1: doing I'm sorry, and also really loved love to bet 245 00:12:57,524 --> 00:12:59,804 Speaker 1: whenever anyone checked to him, like, I don't think he 246 00:12:59,884 --> 00:13:02,244 Speaker 1: passed a single spot to bet, and he would just 247 00:13:02,244 --> 00:13:04,684 Speaker 1: bet very random amount, so I was pretty sure he 248 00:13:04,724 --> 00:13:07,644 Speaker 1: had nothing. And the person who was on the button 249 00:13:07,964 --> 00:13:12,324 Speaker 1: was actually an old pro and he was someone who 250 00:13:12,364 --> 00:13:14,364 Speaker 1: I'd been playing with for a while, and I knew 251 00:13:14,404 --> 00:13:18,204 Speaker 1: he was very solid, good and very very capable of 252 00:13:18,244 --> 00:13:22,524 Speaker 1: making big folds, which is crucial because after he calls 253 00:13:22,604 --> 00:13:25,364 Speaker 1: with me to act behind, he has a good hand, right, 254 00:13:25,444 --> 00:13:27,924 Speaker 1: he doesn't have just air, and so I need to 255 00:13:27,964 --> 00:13:29,804 Speaker 1: be sure that this is a player who is capable 256 00:13:29,804 --> 00:13:33,964 Speaker 1: of folding, because some players aren't. And so he starts tanking. 257 00:13:34,484 --> 00:13:37,844 Speaker 1: And when someone goes into the tank that means they're thinking, 258 00:13:38,444 --> 00:13:43,324 Speaker 1: and he is tanking and tanking and tanking, and the 259 00:13:43,404 --> 00:13:46,524 Speaker 1: longer they tank, the likelihood that they're gonna call you 260 00:13:46,724 --> 00:13:50,004 Speaker 1: goes up, right, So the longer he thinks here, I 261 00:13:50,044 --> 00:13:52,684 Speaker 1: am sitting thinking, okay, well I guess I'm out of 262 00:13:52,724 --> 00:13:55,644 Speaker 1: the tournament. And then finally he shows a queen and 263 00:13:55,684 --> 00:13:59,484 Speaker 1: he folds his hand, so he folds top pair and 264 00:13:59,764 --> 00:14:04,844 Speaker 1: I basically double my chips without any showdown whatsoever. And 265 00:14:04,884 --> 00:14:09,404 Speaker 1: that was an absolutely crucial hand in the tournament because 266 00:14:09,684 --> 00:14:12,764 Speaker 1: it gave me breathing room and it enabled me to 267 00:14:13,484 --> 00:14:16,924 Speaker 1: make it to second place, which is what I eventually got. 268 00:14:17,124 --> 00:14:21,804 Speaker 1: How much money Maria fifty two thousand euros. 269 00:14:21,444 --> 00:14:24,244 Speaker 2: Which is Zero's good? Now there's like one point one. Yeah, 270 00:14:24,244 --> 00:14:24,924 Speaker 2: it's it's like. 271 00:14:24,844 --> 00:14:27,604 Speaker 1: Fifty six thousand something like that. Not as good as 272 00:14:27,604 --> 00:14:39,764 Speaker 1: it would have been last year, but still pretty good. 273 00:14:41,204 --> 00:14:44,964 Speaker 1: So one of the things that has been in the 274 00:14:44,964 --> 00:14:50,444 Speaker 1: news lately and has really gotten me a little bit scared, 275 00:14:50,804 --> 00:14:53,804 Speaker 1: to be perfectly honest, well, actually scared shitless would be 276 00:14:54,684 --> 00:14:58,684 Speaker 1: a more precise technical term for how I'm feeling about 277 00:14:58,684 --> 00:15:03,724 Speaker 1: it is how close this presidential election is, and the 278 00:15:03,804 --> 00:15:07,804 Speaker 1: fact that with how close it is, we have suddenly 279 00:15:08,484 --> 00:15:11,604 Speaker 1: these third part party candidates, and specifically I'm thinking about 280 00:15:11,964 --> 00:15:18,404 Speaker 1: RFK Junior, who is actually pulling ridiculously well for a 281 00:15:18,404 --> 00:15:23,404 Speaker 1: third party candidate, and makes me incredibly worried that there's 282 00:15:23,444 --> 00:15:27,604 Speaker 1: a chance that you know, this person who has a 283 00:15:27,644 --> 00:15:30,044 Speaker 1: brainworm or had a brain worm, I guess it's still 284 00:15:30,044 --> 00:15:32,244 Speaker 1: in his brain so that he and his running mate 285 00:15:32,764 --> 00:15:37,084 Speaker 1: the worm, who do not believe in a lot of 286 00:15:37,124 --> 00:15:41,044 Speaker 1: things that are science based and who are members of 287 00:15:41,044 --> 00:15:43,924 Speaker 1: the Kennedy family, that the two of them have a 288 00:15:43,964 --> 00:15:49,164 Speaker 1: real chance of making a difference in states where the 289 00:15:49,244 --> 00:15:50,284 Speaker 1: elections are close. 290 00:15:50,404 --> 00:15:52,844 Speaker 2: Marie, can you please, yeah, pers I need to interrogate you. 291 00:15:53,364 --> 00:15:54,364 Speaker 2: What state are you from? 292 00:15:54,484 --> 00:15:55,684 Speaker 1: I'm from Massachusetts. 293 00:15:55,764 --> 00:15:58,484 Speaker 2: Do you understand Americans the other four nine states don't 294 00:15:58,484 --> 00:16:00,444 Speaker 2: give a fuck about the Kennedies and don't understand the 295 00:16:00,564 --> 00:16:01,644 Speaker 2: entire Kennedy thing. 296 00:16:02,004 --> 00:16:05,364 Speaker 1: No, Nate, I disagree. I disagree. I think the Kennedy 297 00:16:05,404 --> 00:16:09,124 Speaker 1: thing is a huge thing, and it is a very 298 00:16:09,164 --> 00:16:11,804 Speaker 1: big but yes, point taken. 299 00:16:12,084 --> 00:16:14,324 Speaker 2: Okay, let me give two other kind of points of 300 00:16:14,404 --> 00:16:16,244 Speaker 2: context for the listeners, one of which is kind of 301 00:16:16,284 --> 00:16:20,124 Speaker 2: like a meta abstract point. Right, Maria, you planned to 302 00:16:20,204 --> 00:16:23,004 Speaker 2: vote for Joe Biden? Is that right? Yes? 303 00:16:23,244 --> 00:16:23,644 Speaker 1: Correct? 304 00:16:23,884 --> 00:16:26,084 Speaker 2: And we're doing shows on politics. I think Maria is 305 00:16:26,084 --> 00:16:30,884 Speaker 2: not going to make any hidden attempt to pretend that 306 00:16:30,924 --> 00:16:32,964 Speaker 2: she's not a you know, don't know if you're a 307 00:16:33,004 --> 00:16:34,804 Speaker 2: Democrat or not, but you're going to vote for Joe Biden. 308 00:16:34,844 --> 00:16:38,444 Speaker 2: And I plan to vote for Joe Biden too. For 309 00:16:38,484 --> 00:16:41,324 Speaker 2: what it's worth, however, I am not in these politics. 310 00:16:41,364 --> 00:16:44,644 Speaker 2: I've been's going to make as many assumptions about what 311 00:16:44,724 --> 00:16:47,564 Speaker 2: our audience necessarily thinks. Right. I hope we do have 312 00:16:47,604 --> 00:16:51,364 Speaker 2: some Kennedy listeners and some Trump listeners whatever else. You're 313 00:16:51,364 --> 00:16:53,404 Speaker 2: welcome to listen no matter what. But Maria is kind 314 00:16:53,404 --> 00:16:56,284 Speaker 2: of going to be playing more of a partisan hat role, 315 00:16:56,364 --> 00:16:58,204 Speaker 2: and I'll have more of a non partisan hat. So, 316 00:16:58,644 --> 00:17:01,164 Speaker 2: and the second kind of assumption here is, I think 317 00:17:01,204 --> 00:17:04,684 Speaker 2: you're assuming that Candy will draw more from Biden than 318 00:17:04,724 --> 00:17:07,044 Speaker 2: from Trump, when I'm not so sure that's true. So 319 00:17:07,284 --> 00:17:11,684 Speaker 2: in polls, Kennedy overall is at ten point two percent 320 00:17:11,764 --> 00:17:14,524 Speaker 2: of the vote according to the five thirty eight average, 321 00:17:14,564 --> 00:17:17,404 Speaker 2: which is the highest share of anybody since Ross Peruro 322 00:17:17,404 --> 00:17:19,924 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six. If he wants up realizing that, well, 323 00:17:19,924 --> 00:17:22,484 Speaker 2: debate in a moment how the numbers are more elected 324 00:17:22,524 --> 00:17:26,324 Speaker 2: than not to fade. But ten percent is a serious 325 00:17:26,364 --> 00:17:29,644 Speaker 2: chunk of the electorate. However, I mean, as you mentioned, 326 00:17:29,644 --> 00:17:36,284 Speaker 2: Maria RFK Junior is not some liberal, progressive, pro science 327 00:17:36,364 --> 00:17:38,564 Speaker 2: democrat with one of those yard signs we believe in 328 00:17:38,724 --> 00:17:41,004 Speaker 2: xyz in front of in front of their house. He 329 00:17:41,084 --> 00:17:44,244 Speaker 2: has some beliefs that the scientific consensus would not endorse 330 00:17:44,284 --> 00:17:47,764 Speaker 2: about things like vaccines. For example, he is not to 331 00:17:48,324 --> 00:17:51,404 Speaker 2: Biden's left on issues like abortion or Israel Palestine. He's 332 00:17:51,404 --> 00:17:54,844 Speaker 2: to the right, although sometimes inconsistent in what he says, 333 00:17:55,044 --> 00:17:57,684 Speaker 2: although at times he's been kind of linked with a 334 00:17:57,684 --> 00:18:00,564 Speaker 2: libertarian nomination. Has kind of views all over the place 335 00:18:00,644 --> 00:18:03,364 Speaker 2: on economic issues, a little hard to play, So he 336 00:18:03,484 --> 00:18:07,524 Speaker 2: kind of seems to me like an anti establishment. You 337 00:18:07,524 --> 00:18:10,844 Speaker 2: can say this nicely or not too nicely. Heterodox is 338 00:18:10,884 --> 00:18:14,044 Speaker 2: a nice way to say it. Maybe kind of low 339 00:18:14,124 --> 00:18:17,524 Speaker 2: information mix is a not so nice way to say it. 340 00:18:17,964 --> 00:18:22,524 Speaker 2: Right to me, that reads like it's coming from the 341 00:18:22,564 --> 00:18:25,444 Speaker 2: Trump pile as much as the Biden pile. And then 342 00:18:25,484 --> 00:18:27,644 Speaker 2: the polls is all over the place. There are some 343 00:18:27,804 --> 00:18:31,284 Speaker 2: polls where Candy draws more support from Trump, similar he 344 00:18:31,364 --> 00:18:34,444 Speaker 2: draws more support from Biden. You could say examples, but 345 00:18:34,484 --> 00:18:36,604 Speaker 2: you can have you can you know, every which way 346 00:18:37,244 --> 00:18:40,124 Speaker 2: potentially in terms of the effect on November. By the way, 347 00:18:40,164 --> 00:18:43,404 Speaker 2: there's also Cornell West and Jill Stein who are definitely 348 00:18:43,484 --> 00:18:46,204 Speaker 2: running to Biden's left and are I think purely harmful 349 00:18:46,244 --> 00:18:48,924 Speaker 2: to Biden. But I think look, if I'm Joe Biden, 350 00:18:48,924 --> 00:18:51,524 Speaker 2: I have a lot of concerns right now, including the 351 00:18:51,524 --> 00:18:53,324 Speaker 2: fact that I'm eighty one years old, the fact that 352 00:18:55,164 --> 00:18:57,484 Speaker 2: you know, voters are still concerned about inflation, the fact 353 00:18:57,524 --> 00:18:59,684 Speaker 2: that you have kind of a lot of pushback against 354 00:18:59,724 --> 00:19:02,324 Speaker 2: the left. Now, I'm not sure if RFK Juniors had 355 00:19:02,364 --> 00:19:05,604 Speaker 2: my top five concerns at the moment. 356 00:19:07,124 --> 00:19:10,724 Speaker 1: So then, but in it all, that's at least right now, 357 00:19:11,204 --> 00:19:14,484 Speaker 1: so close, right, So many polls have them just neck 358 00:19:14,524 --> 00:19:17,044 Speaker 1: and neck, fifty to fifty more or less. Some have 359 00:19:17,204 --> 00:19:19,844 Speaker 1: you know, Trump ahead, some have Biden ahead. You know, 360 00:19:19,844 --> 00:19:22,404 Speaker 1: it depends on the state. But when we're talking about 361 00:19:22,404 --> 00:19:26,324 Speaker 1: states that actually matter, So Nate, you vote in New York, 362 00:19:26,804 --> 00:19:30,204 Speaker 1: and I voted in Massachusetts. Then I voted in New York. 363 00:19:30,484 --> 00:19:33,884 Speaker 1: But now I actually get to vote in Nevada, which 364 00:19:34,044 --> 00:19:36,284 Speaker 1: is a purple state and a state that is actually 365 00:19:36,364 --> 00:19:40,004 Speaker 1: a swing state. So my vote finally matters. It actually 366 00:19:40,044 --> 00:19:43,164 Speaker 1: matters who I am voting for. And in places like Michigan, 367 00:19:43,324 --> 00:19:46,684 Speaker 1: you know, votes definitely matter. So in those cases, right 368 00:19:46,764 --> 00:19:50,124 Speaker 1: in those states where every single vote is actually crucially important, 369 00:19:50,564 --> 00:19:55,684 Speaker 1: do we think that collectively third party candidates, including RFK Junior, 370 00:19:55,964 --> 00:19:58,204 Speaker 1: are going to be in a position where they actually 371 00:19:58,324 --> 00:19:59,764 Speaker 1: might swing the outcome of the election. 372 00:20:00,284 --> 00:20:04,564 Speaker 2: So historically, third party candidates get less of the vote 373 00:20:04,604 --> 00:20:09,724 Speaker 2: in swing states because voters, even before a podcast Maria, 374 00:20:10,044 --> 00:20:13,204 Speaker 2: some voters were rational. They would understand that, like, if 375 00:20:13,244 --> 00:20:14,844 Speaker 2: you're running in New York and you want to send 376 00:20:14,884 --> 00:20:18,204 Speaker 2: a message to Biden and Democrats or the two party 377 00:20:18,244 --> 00:20:21,124 Speaker 2: system by lending a vote to a third party, it's 378 00:20:21,164 --> 00:20:22,924 Speaker 2: not going to actually affect the outcome in the election. 379 00:20:22,964 --> 00:20:26,404 Speaker 2: If you're in Pennsylvania or Arizona or Nevada, Georgia, Michigan, 380 00:20:26,844 --> 00:20:28,684 Speaker 2: then it might. And I think people like actually are 381 00:20:29,324 --> 00:20:33,364 Speaker 2: are relatively rational about that. We've had in the last 382 00:20:33,364 --> 00:20:36,964 Speaker 2: two elections what I call tipping point states, a fancy 383 00:20:37,044 --> 00:20:39,804 Speaker 2: term for the states that make the differen between who 384 00:20:39,804 --> 00:20:42,484 Speaker 2: gets two hundred and seventy electoral votes and not came 385 00:20:42,564 --> 00:20:45,284 Speaker 2: down to a percentage point or so. So yeah, in theory, 386 00:20:45,284 --> 00:20:48,084 Speaker 2: if you have a guy taking ten percent or let's say, 387 00:20:48,084 --> 00:20:51,204 Speaker 2: because by the way, it usually does go down. Because 388 00:20:51,284 --> 00:20:53,644 Speaker 2: right now, people kind of use RFK as like a 389 00:20:53,644 --> 00:20:57,124 Speaker 2: free parking space for deciding what we'll do later to 390 00:20:57,204 --> 00:21:00,764 Speaker 2: demonstrate their lack of satisfaction with these two very old 391 00:21:00,804 --> 00:21:02,964 Speaker 2: men who are running again in a rematch. A lot 392 00:21:02,964 --> 00:21:05,164 Speaker 2: of Americans do not want. Although Canny himself was I 393 00:21:05,164 --> 00:21:06,444 Speaker 2: think over seventy years old. 394 00:21:07,364 --> 00:21:09,844 Speaker 1: He is, and he had a warm parasite the brain 395 00:21:10,084 --> 00:21:11,164 Speaker 1: who ate part of his brain. 396 00:21:11,324 --> 00:21:14,444 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, look, I'm not sure what 397 00:21:14,524 --> 00:21:16,684 Speaker 2: it told people that personally, if I if I have brainworms, 398 00:21:16,684 --> 00:21:18,524 Speaker 2: I'm not going to do a brainworm segment on this. 399 00:21:18,924 --> 00:21:19,444 Speaker 1: He didn't. 400 00:21:19,484 --> 00:21:19,924 Speaker 2: He didn't. 401 00:21:20,044 --> 00:21:23,364 Speaker 1: It came up because he used it during a divorce trial, 402 00:21:23,804 --> 00:21:26,244 Speaker 1: where let's just say so, I have a background in 403 00:21:26,244 --> 00:21:28,924 Speaker 1: con artists. My second book was about con artists the 404 00:21:28,964 --> 00:21:32,644 Speaker 1: confidence game, and con artists are known for telling people 405 00:21:32,684 --> 00:21:35,804 Speaker 1: what they want to hear or what's strategically good in 406 00:21:35,804 --> 00:21:38,964 Speaker 1: that particular moment, which has a high overlap with politicians 407 00:21:38,964 --> 00:21:42,604 Speaker 1: in general. But during his divorce proceedings, RFK Junior was 408 00:21:42,644 --> 00:21:46,244 Speaker 1: trying to argue that his cognitive capacity was greatly diminished 409 00:21:46,484 --> 00:21:49,124 Speaker 1: and so his future earnings potential was a lot lower, 410 00:21:49,164 --> 00:21:51,964 Speaker 1: so he had to pay less money during the divorce 411 00:21:52,124 --> 00:21:54,324 Speaker 1: and would have to pay a lower settlement. So this 412 00:21:54,484 --> 00:21:56,724 Speaker 1: was a matter of record, and journalists dug it up. 413 00:21:56,764 --> 00:21:58,884 Speaker 1: And now of course he's saying, oh no, no, no, 414 00:21:58,924 --> 00:22:02,284 Speaker 1: cognitive capacity not diminished at all. What are you talking about. 415 00:22:02,804 --> 00:22:05,244 Speaker 2: We don't think he was lying in the divorce anyway. 416 00:22:06,084 --> 00:22:07,124 Speaker 1: He was lying in one of the two. 417 00:22:08,444 --> 00:22:11,324 Speaker 2: The point is, if you had to project historically, so 418 00:22:11,364 --> 00:22:14,964 Speaker 2: for example, Gary Johnson, the libertarian candidate, was polling at 419 00:22:16,004 --> 00:22:18,284 Speaker 2: maybe around ten percent now or eight percent of remembering 420 00:22:18,324 --> 00:22:22,364 Speaker 2: this offhand, and got more like five percent. Russfrow bounced 421 00:22:22,364 --> 00:22:24,644 Speaker 2: around a lot in nineteen ninety two. He was at 422 00:22:24,644 --> 00:22:27,324 Speaker 2: one point leading in the polls believed it or not, 423 00:22:27,404 --> 00:22:30,204 Speaker 2: and then dropped out and then rejoined the race. God, 424 00:22:30,244 --> 00:22:32,964 Speaker 2: I'm going off memory here, nineteen percent or something like that. 425 00:22:33,204 --> 00:22:36,044 Speaker 2: So if you had to project where Candy will wind up, 426 00:22:36,324 --> 00:22:38,844 Speaker 2: you've probably take an over under of like seven points 427 00:22:38,884 --> 00:22:43,004 Speaker 2: and not ten. Right with that said, look, seven points 428 00:22:43,044 --> 00:22:45,564 Speaker 2: will almost certainly be bigger than the margin of difference 429 00:22:45,604 --> 00:22:48,964 Speaker 2: between Biden and Trump in a state like Michigan, for example, 430 00:22:49,084 --> 00:22:51,964 Speaker 2: So if Kennedy were to take most of that vote 431 00:22:51,964 --> 00:22:54,284 Speaker 2: from one side, that would be a problem for whoever 432 00:22:54,444 --> 00:22:58,684 Speaker 2: lost those voters. But again, I think it might wind 433 00:22:58,764 --> 00:23:02,124 Speaker 2: up being fairly even. And if the Biden campaign knows 434 00:23:02,164 --> 00:23:06,404 Speaker 2: what's doing. I mean, you've seen actually Trump advisors begin 435 00:23:06,524 --> 00:23:11,284 Speaker 2: to express more reservations about rfkus right as people learn 436 00:23:11,324 --> 00:23:14,244 Speaker 2: more about him, they learn more about the vaccine stuff, 437 00:23:14,244 --> 00:23:17,604 Speaker 2: they learn more about how he's not some typical liberal Kennedy. 438 00:23:17,764 --> 00:23:20,724 Speaker 2: He may compete more with the kind of disaffected, sort 439 00:23:20,764 --> 00:23:22,484 Speaker 2: of Trump voter archetype instead. 440 00:23:23,844 --> 00:23:28,804 Speaker 1: So just to kind of sum that up, we're not 441 00:23:28,844 --> 00:23:31,004 Speaker 1: sure at this point. We're not sure what's going to happen, 442 00:23:31,244 --> 00:23:34,764 Speaker 1: but this is put a potential issue. So how you know, 443 00:23:34,804 --> 00:23:36,884 Speaker 1: we're getting new polling data all the time. You know, 444 00:23:36,884 --> 00:23:39,524 Speaker 1: the New York Times just released a big poll this week. 445 00:23:39,844 --> 00:23:42,484 Speaker 1: How should we read the polls? How should we think 446 00:23:42,484 --> 00:23:45,364 Speaker 1: about the polls going forward in the months leading up 447 00:23:45,404 --> 00:23:47,644 Speaker 1: to the elections? Or should we just ignore them up 448 00:23:47,684 --> 00:23:48,524 Speaker 1: to a certain point. 449 00:23:48,404 --> 00:23:51,124 Speaker 2: At like this, if you're a Democrat, I'd be worried 450 00:23:51,164 --> 00:23:54,164 Speaker 2: because Biden is losing the Trump right now, I wouldn't 451 00:23:54,164 --> 00:23:55,964 Speaker 2: care so much about RFK Junior. It's like not my 452 00:23:56,004 --> 00:23:58,964 Speaker 2: first concern. You know, you almost if you're losing Maria 453 00:23:59,044 --> 00:24:01,644 Speaker 2: in a poker hand or something. You want more variants, 454 00:24:01,684 --> 00:24:03,124 Speaker 2: You want more things that are in the mix. And 455 00:24:03,204 --> 00:24:05,604 Speaker 2: right now, if you had an election today, Biden would 456 00:24:05,604 --> 00:24:08,204 Speaker 2: probably lose at least in the swing state. So give 457 00:24:08,204 --> 00:24:11,844 Speaker 2: me more RFK Junior. Right, the more worried you are 458 00:24:11,884 --> 00:24:15,204 Speaker 2: about Biden's position overall, the more you should welcome chaos, 459 00:24:15,244 --> 00:24:16,084 Speaker 2: I think. 460 00:24:16,164 --> 00:24:21,084 Speaker 1: All right, So with that I will welcome chaos. Welcome 461 00:24:21,124 --> 00:24:25,324 Speaker 1: to the race, RFK and worm and let's see what happens. 462 00:24:25,404 --> 00:24:28,564 Speaker 1: And as a Democrat, I hope that I don't need 463 00:24:28,564 --> 00:24:30,884 Speaker 1: to hit the panic button quite yet, but I'm ready 464 00:24:30,924 --> 00:24:31,964 Speaker 1: to just in case. 465 00:24:46,484 --> 00:24:50,404 Speaker 2: Some Maria. A couple of weeks ago, my finance bro 466 00:24:50,484 --> 00:24:52,924 Speaker 2: buddy texts me and says, do you want to go 467 00:24:52,964 --> 00:24:56,284 Speaker 2: to the New York Liberty game in a couple of weekends? 468 00:24:56,364 --> 00:25:00,204 Speaker 2: Right with his is a divorced dad with his young daughter, 469 00:25:00,804 --> 00:25:02,524 Speaker 2: And I'm like, sure, you know, I mean, it was 470 00:25:03,124 --> 00:25:06,044 Speaker 2: a little surprising in this particular friend of mine, not 471 00:25:06,084 --> 00:25:08,764 Speaker 2: to profile too much, wanted women's basketball tickets, but he 472 00:25:08,804 --> 00:25:10,684 Speaker 2: has a young daughter who's forty, so it kind of 473 00:25:10,724 --> 00:25:12,364 Speaker 2: makes sense, right, And then I learned that it's the 474 00:25:12,404 --> 00:25:16,164 Speaker 2: game against the Indiana Fever, which is the team that 475 00:25:16,244 --> 00:25:20,444 Speaker 2: drafted Caitlin Clark, the superstar point guard from University of Iowa, 476 00:25:20,604 --> 00:25:26,164 Speaker 2: who is maybe the most famous female basketball player in history, 477 00:25:26,204 --> 00:25:30,284 Speaker 2: probably more famous than any amateur NCAAA men's player, at 478 00:25:30,364 --> 00:25:33,044 Speaker 2: least as of the date of the NCAA tournament, and 479 00:25:33,364 --> 00:25:37,164 Speaker 2: I was excited about this and any texts again and says, 480 00:25:37,204 --> 00:25:40,644 Speaker 2: by the way, we're in. We're in the bleachers for this. 481 00:25:42,164 --> 00:25:45,684 Speaker 2: And the reason why is that, unlike a typical New 482 00:25:45,764 --> 00:25:48,364 Speaker 2: York Liberty game, the court side seats for this game 483 00:25:48,444 --> 00:25:50,444 Speaker 2: costs tens of the utter made, not tens, but you know, 484 00:25:51,004 --> 00:25:55,724 Speaker 2: high four figures worth of prices. The cheapest seats when 485 00:25:55,724 --> 00:25:58,804 Speaker 2: I checked yesterday were about one hundred and five dollars 486 00:25:58,844 --> 00:26:02,964 Speaker 2: with Ticketmaster fees. So that is actually more than a 487 00:26:03,004 --> 00:26:06,964 Speaker 2: typical Brooklyn Nets game, right at least in the post 488 00:26:07,044 --> 00:26:10,604 Speaker 2: Kevin Durant era, maybe not as much. Is like a 489 00:26:10,684 --> 00:26:13,044 Speaker 2: Knixt game, the Knicks are a very popular in demand 490 00:26:13,044 --> 00:26:17,844 Speaker 2: ticket but all of a sudden, women's basketball is when 491 00:26:17,924 --> 00:26:23,004 Speaker 2: Caitlin Clark plays, drawing on a par with the NBA. 492 00:26:24,524 --> 00:26:27,884 Speaker 1: I mean, that is crazy and quite the phenomenon. Just 493 00:26:28,204 --> 00:26:30,764 Speaker 1: to be clear, I know the names of two female 494 00:26:30,764 --> 00:26:34,964 Speaker 1: basketball players, Britney Griner for reasons that have nothing to 495 00:26:35,004 --> 00:26:38,484 Speaker 1: do with her playing basketball and everything to do with 496 00:26:38,564 --> 00:26:41,964 Speaker 1: the political crisis in twenty twenty two right where she 497 00:26:42,004 --> 00:26:45,564 Speaker 1: was detained by Russia as a prisoner, and Caitlin Clark, 498 00:26:46,044 --> 00:26:48,844 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden whenever something bleeps on my 499 00:26:48,924 --> 00:26:51,604 Speaker 1: sports radar. And for people who don't know me, I 500 00:26:51,644 --> 00:26:54,084 Speaker 1: am not a sports fan. I do not watch sports. 501 00:26:54,164 --> 00:26:56,684 Speaker 1: I have actually never been to a single basketball game 502 00:26:56,724 --> 00:26:59,444 Speaker 1: in my life though, name you say you want to? 503 00:26:59,924 --> 00:27:02,804 Speaker 1: You want to? Yeah, yeah, so Caitlyn Clark has popped. 504 00:27:03,044 --> 00:27:06,204 Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet the friend who's buy tickets this game 505 00:27:06,244 --> 00:27:09,764 Speaker 2: could also name those exact two women's basketball play and 506 00:27:09,804 --> 00:27:12,804 Speaker 2: maybe Sue Bird, maybe one or so other. Right, if 507 00:27:12,844 --> 00:27:15,964 Speaker 2: you go, for example, to the next game at Barclay Center, 508 00:27:16,084 --> 00:27:18,604 Speaker 2: the Seattle Storm at New York Liberty, I can buy 509 00:27:19,204 --> 00:27:22,764 Speaker 2: a good seat for twenty one bucks. So, as of now, 510 00:27:22,804 --> 00:27:26,684 Speaker 2: this is very much focused on the particular cultural phenomenon 511 00:27:26,724 --> 00:27:27,684 Speaker 2: that is Caitlin Clark. 512 00:27:29,004 --> 00:27:32,484 Speaker 1: Yeah. So obviously this is a huge deal. But then 513 00:27:32,524 --> 00:27:35,684 Speaker 1: what I started reading about her, the stories that I encountered, 514 00:27:36,124 --> 00:27:39,564 Speaker 1: were all about the contrast between how popular she is, right, 515 00:27:39,644 --> 00:27:43,124 Speaker 1: what a huge audience and viewership she draws. And then 516 00:27:43,484 --> 00:27:47,204 Speaker 1: we have her starting salary as at WNBA's number one 517 00:27:47,284 --> 00:27:50,924 Speaker 1: draft pick, which is going to be seventy six thousand, 518 00:27:51,044 --> 00:27:55,284 Speaker 1: five hundred and thirty five dollars. You know, I think 519 00:27:55,444 --> 00:28:00,564 Speaker 1: that's crazy given that in the NCAA March Madness Final, 520 00:28:01,204 --> 00:28:07,124 Speaker 1: she averaged well. Their game averaged eighteen point seven million 521 00:28:07,204 --> 00:28:12,164 Speaker 1: viewers and peaked at twenty four million between ESPN and ABC, 522 00:28:12,284 --> 00:28:15,844 Speaker 1: while the men's final averaged fourteen point eight million. Now, 523 00:28:15,924 --> 00:28:18,884 Speaker 1: let's compare the salary of seventy six, five hundred and 524 00:28:18,884 --> 00:28:25,004 Speaker 1: thirty five dollars to the lowest draft pick in the NBA, 525 00:28:25,124 --> 00:28:28,004 Speaker 1: not the WNBA. The last pick in the first round 526 00:28:28,044 --> 00:28:31,084 Speaker 1: of the NBA draft gets two million dollars in their 527 00:28:31,124 --> 00:28:33,964 Speaker 1: first year. So that is quite the contrast to someone 528 00:28:34,004 --> 00:28:38,004 Speaker 1: who has brought in record audiences to the sport. So 529 00:28:38,084 --> 00:28:40,204 Speaker 1: there are two things that I want to talk about. 530 00:28:41,204 --> 00:28:44,164 Speaker 1: So first of all, a lot of people point out, yeah, 531 00:28:44,164 --> 00:28:46,044 Speaker 1: but her salary isn't it right. She's going to get 532 00:28:46,084 --> 00:28:47,924 Speaker 1: endorsement deals, She's going to get branding deals, she's going 533 00:28:47,964 --> 00:28:51,004 Speaker 1: to get opportunities that most women's basketball players or men's 534 00:28:51,084 --> 00:28:53,404 Speaker 1: never get because she's a superstar. I want to talk 535 00:28:53,444 --> 00:28:55,644 Speaker 1: a little bit about the superstar effect here. But then 536 00:28:55,724 --> 00:28:57,964 Speaker 1: I do want to talk about that gender pay gap 537 00:28:58,324 --> 00:29:03,004 Speaker 1: and the fact that we're seeing these absolutely huge differences 538 00:29:03,364 --> 00:29:07,364 Speaker 1: between someone who's just a slam dunk top superstar and 539 00:29:07,404 --> 00:29:12,524 Speaker 1: what a superstar would be getting in the NBA. So, Nate, 540 00:29:12,564 --> 00:29:15,604 Speaker 1: do you have any initial thoughts on that, because I 541 00:29:15,604 --> 00:29:17,204 Speaker 1: could start going and it's going to be hard to 542 00:29:17,204 --> 00:29:18,724 Speaker 1: shut me up. So I'm going to let you get 543 00:29:18,764 --> 00:29:20,444 Speaker 1: an word in Edge West first. 544 00:29:21,324 --> 00:29:29,044 Speaker 2: As an mostly underpentent capitalists most of the time, I 545 00:29:29,044 --> 00:29:34,044 Speaker 2: think the issues that the system is not capitalistic enough. Right, 546 00:29:34,364 --> 00:29:39,564 Speaker 2: that Caitlin Clark does not have leverage to demand her 547 00:29:39,604 --> 00:29:41,644 Speaker 2: marginal revenue product would be the way that an economist 548 00:29:41,684 --> 00:29:43,724 Speaker 2: would put it, and that I don't agree. I mean 549 00:29:43,804 --> 00:29:45,884 Speaker 2: just because she makes money from endorsement, so I mean, look, 550 00:29:47,284 --> 00:29:49,004 Speaker 2: she should also have the right to make money based 551 00:29:49,004 --> 00:29:51,884 Speaker 2: on the fact that she's bringing in five or ten 552 00:29:51,924 --> 00:29:54,644 Speaker 2: times more ticket revenue than any other player in the 553 00:29:54,684 --> 00:29:59,284 Speaker 2: w NBA. Right. One problem is that rookies and almost 554 00:29:59,364 --> 00:30:03,604 Speaker 2: every sports league are on a salary scale where they're 555 00:30:03,964 --> 00:30:08,084 Speaker 2: basically underpaid. Right. One reason why NBA teams tank, meaning 556 00:30:08,084 --> 00:30:10,884 Speaker 2: intentionally trying to lose, is but because you cannot only 557 00:30:10,924 --> 00:30:14,524 Speaker 2: get a player like Victor Womanyama for the Spurs. He 558 00:30:14,604 --> 00:30:16,164 Speaker 2: was number one pick in the men's league, and the 559 00:30:16,244 --> 00:30:18,684 Speaker 2: men's we have saying men's league in the NBA. He's 560 00:30:18,724 --> 00:30:22,484 Speaker 2: also paid far less than he's worth, and it has 561 00:30:22,564 --> 00:30:26,084 Speaker 2: to do with the dynamics of union bargaining frankly, and 562 00:30:26,124 --> 00:30:29,964 Speaker 2: the fact that like established players to some extent, are 563 00:30:30,724 --> 00:30:33,724 Speaker 2: screwing over rookies who do not have as much leverage 564 00:30:33,724 --> 00:30:35,884 Speaker 2: in the player union. Also, a lot of rookies are bad. 565 00:30:36,324 --> 00:30:39,524 Speaker 2: Sometimes rookies are playing for developmental reasons, so they tend 566 00:30:39,524 --> 00:30:41,364 Speaker 2: to lack leverage in general, and that carries over to 567 00:30:41,404 --> 00:30:44,244 Speaker 2: the WNBA. The other is she though, is that she 568 00:30:44,644 --> 00:30:48,404 Speaker 2: is a big outlier as far as her market ability, 569 00:30:48,484 --> 00:30:51,084 Speaker 2: even forgetting the rookie thing right, even if she weren't 570 00:30:51,084 --> 00:30:54,684 Speaker 2: a rookie, the entire WNBA salary cap is like what 571 00:30:54,884 --> 00:30:57,444 Speaker 2: like one point four million dollars I was looking up 572 00:30:57,484 --> 00:30:59,844 Speaker 2: a moment ago. The entire salary cap is, yeah, one 573 00:30:59,884 --> 00:31:04,244 Speaker 2: point four six three million dollars, which is less than 574 00:31:04,284 --> 00:31:09,404 Speaker 2: what a single NBA rookie makes. Now, that's because WNBA 575 00:31:09,604 --> 00:31:14,844 Speaker 2: historically has made much less revenue than the NBA. There 576 00:31:14,884 --> 00:31:17,004 Speaker 2: are debates about whether it's even profitable or kind of 577 00:31:17,044 --> 00:31:20,204 Speaker 2: like a loss leader for the league. But she that 578 00:31:20,484 --> 00:31:23,204 Speaker 2: doesn't work for her, right, she should have some special 579 00:31:23,244 --> 00:31:27,044 Speaker 2: provision where she probably is gonna make in Marshall revenue 580 00:31:27,044 --> 00:31:31,244 Speaker 2: probably ten fifteen, twenty million dollars a year, and she's 581 00:31:31,284 --> 00:31:35,284 Speaker 2: being exploited because if she decides she doesn't want to 582 00:31:35,324 --> 00:31:37,604 Speaker 2: play or go plays in China or something, which is 583 00:31:37,604 --> 00:31:40,964 Speaker 2: where she might ultimately have leverage, that is money out 584 00:31:41,004 --> 00:31:43,284 Speaker 2: of the coffers of the Indiana Fever and also visiting 585 00:31:43,324 --> 00:31:45,364 Speaker 2: teams like the New York Liberty that are you know, 586 00:31:45,404 --> 00:31:48,204 Speaker 2: people are going there to see her. My friend's daughter 587 00:31:48,244 --> 00:31:50,364 Speaker 2: will be wearing a Caitlin Clark jersey and not a 588 00:31:50,404 --> 00:31:53,844 Speaker 2: New York Liberty jersey. So she's getting screwed over by 589 00:31:54,164 --> 00:31:57,924 Speaker 2: by a lack of ability to kind of achieve what 590 00:31:57,964 --> 00:31:58,684 Speaker 2: she's really worth. 591 00:32:00,284 --> 00:32:03,884 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that seems to be pretty clear and 592 00:32:04,004 --> 00:32:06,924 Speaker 1: something that I didn't realize. So when you're talking about 593 00:32:06,924 --> 00:32:10,044 Speaker 1: how you know, the WNBA is a young league, doesn't 594 00:32:10,044 --> 00:32:12,684 Speaker 1: make as much money generally as the NBA, so you 595 00:32:12,684 --> 00:32:15,644 Speaker 1: know the salaries are lower. But what I didn't realize 596 00:32:15,764 --> 00:32:18,964 Speaker 1: was that the NBA players get fifty percent revenue share 597 00:32:19,404 --> 00:32:22,084 Speaker 1: that's kind of what goes towards their salary, whereas the 598 00:32:22,204 --> 00:32:27,244 Speaker 1: WNBA only get ten percent. So even if we account 599 00:32:27,364 --> 00:32:32,044 Speaker 1: for the lower revenue of the WNBA, they're still getting screwed, right, 600 00:32:32,084 --> 00:32:35,164 Speaker 1: They're still getting a much smaller percentage of the overall 601 00:32:35,204 --> 00:32:38,364 Speaker 1: revenue share than the male players. And this, I think 602 00:32:38,404 --> 00:32:40,724 Speaker 1: is something that is general to the league and not 603 00:32:40,964 --> 00:32:44,004 Speaker 1: just to Kaitlin Clark, even though obviously we know Caitlyn's 604 00:32:44,044 --> 00:32:47,164 Speaker 1: getting now doubly screwed because that superstar effect is not 605 00:32:47,284 --> 00:32:50,524 Speaker 1: actually applying to her, right, it is applying to her 606 00:32:50,604 --> 00:32:53,884 Speaker 1: in certain endorsement deals, but it's not applying to her 607 00:32:53,884 --> 00:32:56,084 Speaker 1: when it just comes to her basic salary. And that 608 00:32:56,124 --> 00:32:58,844 Speaker 1: pushes people like her, as you said, and like Brittany 609 00:32:58,844 --> 00:33:03,204 Speaker 1: Griner to go play abroad where they might get detained 610 00:33:03,684 --> 00:33:07,124 Speaker 1: because there's just no revenue opportunity in the United States. 611 00:33:08,004 --> 00:33:11,724 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, women's basketball has not historically had 612 00:33:12,324 --> 00:33:16,204 Speaker 2: as much of an audience as men's basketball, particularly not 613 00:33:16,564 --> 00:33:19,524 Speaker 2: outside of the US. So in the NBA. The European 614 00:33:19,604 --> 00:33:23,964 Speaker 2: leagues are are relatively speaking more competitive, but in general, 615 00:33:24,324 --> 00:33:27,044 Speaker 2: there are genetic differences between men and women, and those 616 00:33:27,084 --> 00:33:29,884 Speaker 2: manifest themselves and things that are relevant to athletic competition, 617 00:33:30,044 --> 00:33:32,964 Speaker 2: like who can jump farthest or run fastest or things 618 00:33:33,364 --> 00:33:33,924 Speaker 2: things like that. 619 00:33:34,164 --> 00:33:36,724 Speaker 1: Right, I'm gonna I'm gonna interject here to say that 620 00:33:36,804 --> 00:33:40,764 Speaker 1: Kitlyn Clark was the top overall scorer in NCAA history, 621 00:33:40,804 --> 00:33:41,644 Speaker 1: which includes men. 622 00:33:42,204 --> 00:33:44,644 Speaker 2: But she's competing against women. I'm not gonna get away. No, 623 00:33:44,764 --> 00:33:46,564 Speaker 2: that's that's a good point. I don't fine because she's 624 00:33:46,564 --> 00:33:49,844 Speaker 2: competing against women and not men. But for the most 625 00:33:49,884 --> 00:33:53,684 Speaker 2: part people, it's kind of socially constructed, Like why do people, 626 00:33:53,764 --> 00:33:58,164 Speaker 2: for example, watch college basketball at all? Right, the games 627 00:33:58,164 --> 00:34:01,684 Speaker 2: are much much, much worse than the NBA. It's because 628 00:34:01,724 --> 00:34:03,644 Speaker 2: people like are not watching for the pure sake of 629 00:34:03,684 --> 00:34:07,164 Speaker 2: athletic competition. And I think maybe a lot of mostly 630 00:34:07,204 --> 00:34:11,444 Speaker 2: male decision makers underestimated their market ability of women's basketball, 631 00:34:11,844 --> 00:34:13,684 Speaker 2: and now there's a big correction, and I think I 632 00:34:13,724 --> 00:34:17,404 Speaker 2: think that players should demand their restructuring, like sooner rather 633 00:34:17,404 --> 00:34:20,124 Speaker 2: than later. I mean, it may have been appropriate compensation 634 00:34:20,924 --> 00:34:24,804 Speaker 2: given what the league's ratings were up until Caitlyn Clark, 635 00:34:24,924 --> 00:34:27,764 Speaker 2: and now it's going to be in all likelihood different, 636 00:34:27,964 --> 00:34:31,004 Speaker 2: and you know, they should use whatever marketing power they 637 00:34:31,004 --> 00:34:33,764 Speaker 2: have to rectify that as soon as possible because now 638 00:34:33,764 --> 00:34:34,684 Speaker 2: they are being underpaid. 639 00:34:35,444 --> 00:34:37,724 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And you said you said a phrase in there 640 00:34:37,804 --> 00:34:41,364 Speaker 1: that I think is absolutely crucial, which is socially constructed, right. 641 00:34:41,444 --> 00:34:44,244 Speaker 1: So I do think that a lot of this, a 642 00:34:44,324 --> 00:34:47,564 Speaker 1: lot of the compensation, a lot of the historical differences. 643 00:34:47,924 --> 00:34:50,244 Speaker 1: And this is not just true of basketball, This is 644 00:34:50,364 --> 00:34:53,604 Speaker 1: just now, you know, more broadly speaking, when it comes 645 00:34:53,604 --> 00:34:56,844 Speaker 1: to men versus women's gender pay gaps, et cetera, is 646 00:34:56,884 --> 00:35:01,884 Speaker 1: a result of generations of socially constructed norms and what 647 00:35:01,964 --> 00:35:06,004 Speaker 1: people you know, are doing versus not doing. And so 648 00:35:06,044 --> 00:35:09,524 Speaker 1: I think that that's absolutely crucial to remember as we 649 00:35:09,564 --> 00:35:12,404 Speaker 1: talk about, you know, moving forward, what is reasonable? What 650 00:35:12,444 --> 00:35:15,924 Speaker 1: isn't it reasonable? Because even you know that fifty versus 651 00:35:16,004 --> 00:35:18,724 Speaker 1: ten percent revenue share, now they can you know, can 652 00:35:18,764 --> 00:35:19,924 Speaker 1: they push for fifty percent? 653 00:35:20,164 --> 00:35:20,284 Speaker 2: Right? 654 00:35:20,284 --> 00:35:23,364 Speaker 1: Because that accounts for that accounts for the fact that 655 00:35:23,404 --> 00:35:25,924 Speaker 1: there are differences. They're not saying we need to be 656 00:35:25,964 --> 00:35:28,644 Speaker 1: paid as much money as the men. They're saying we 657 00:35:28,724 --> 00:35:32,644 Speaker 1: want to proportionally be paid as much money as the men. 658 00:35:32,804 --> 00:35:36,804 Speaker 1: And to me, that's absolutely reasonable. And you know, obviously 659 00:35:37,164 --> 00:35:39,524 Speaker 1: I'm a woman and I've been on the I've been 660 00:35:39,524 --> 00:35:42,244 Speaker 1: on the bottom end of the of the gender pay 661 00:35:42,244 --> 00:35:42,764 Speaker 1: gap from you. 662 00:35:43,524 --> 00:35:48,924 Speaker 2: Yeah, look, when you are charging one hundred bucks for 663 00:35:49,084 --> 00:35:53,164 Speaker 2: a cheap seat for a regular season WNBA game in Brooklyn. 664 00:35:54,644 --> 00:35:57,244 Speaker 2: That's real money. That really adds up there whatever eighteen 665 00:35:57,284 --> 00:35:59,764 Speaker 2: thousand people in that stadium, and Caitlin Clark, you're going 666 00:35:59,764 --> 00:36:02,044 Speaker 2: to sell out every arena as long as she remains 667 00:36:02,084 --> 00:36:06,364 Speaker 2: healthy and isn't a total flop. That's real money, and 668 00:36:06,484 --> 00:36:09,364 Speaker 2: the players who are generating that money deserve more of it. 669 00:36:10,444 --> 00:36:14,004 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I think that we need to look more 670 00:36:14,164 --> 00:36:18,364 Speaker 1: at that argument as opposed to their gender differences, because 671 00:36:18,684 --> 00:36:21,364 Speaker 1: it's incredibly easy to get bogged down in that and 672 00:36:21,404 --> 00:36:24,564 Speaker 1: then to start using that as an excuse. So in 673 00:36:24,604 --> 00:36:27,164 Speaker 1: my own area, right, I'm a writer, I'm a speaker, 674 00:36:27,564 --> 00:36:30,524 Speaker 1: and I happen to know with one hundred percent certainty 675 00:36:30,564 --> 00:36:33,284 Speaker 1: because I've actually talked to people about this and compared 676 00:36:33,644 --> 00:36:37,484 Speaker 1: that I get paid less for speaking engagements, I get 677 00:36:37,724 --> 00:36:41,084 Speaker 1: lower advances, I get paid less a lot of the 678 00:36:41,124 --> 00:36:43,804 Speaker 1: time than male counter perhaps who don't have a PhD. 679 00:36:44,164 --> 00:36:46,684 Speaker 1: And by the way, I got that fucking PhD so 680 00:36:46,724 --> 00:36:49,364 Speaker 1: that I could have those three letters behind my name, 681 00:36:49,604 --> 00:36:52,044 Speaker 1: because as a woman, I need that in a way 682 00:36:52,084 --> 00:36:54,964 Speaker 1: that men don't. Just like Caitlin Clark to achieve what 683 00:36:55,044 --> 00:36:57,244 Speaker 1: she needed to, she has to be a million times 684 00:36:57,244 --> 00:37:00,404 Speaker 1: more extraordinary than a man, right, like, that's what you 685 00:37:00,484 --> 00:37:03,564 Speaker 1: have to do to get over that. And even still 686 00:37:03,884 --> 00:37:06,084 Speaker 1: I have people who say, oh, you don't know what 687 00:37:06,084 --> 00:37:09,284 Speaker 1: you're talking about in psychology, and they have an armchair degree, right, 688 00:37:09,564 --> 00:37:13,604 Speaker 1: They've never studied psychology at the level that I have, 689 00:37:13,844 --> 00:37:15,524 Speaker 1: and yet they say that to me all the time. 690 00:37:15,684 --> 00:37:20,724 Speaker 2: Look as the kind of dumb sports pro between the 691 00:37:20,724 --> 00:37:28,644 Speaker 2: two of us, Right, I somewhat object to how what 692 00:37:28,804 --> 00:37:33,244 Speaker 2: you can map those differences in things like speaking gigs 693 00:37:33,244 --> 00:37:37,804 Speaker 2: onto sports where there are more objective measures of performance. 694 00:37:38,164 --> 00:37:40,964 Speaker 2: But I think like championing women's sports is like something 695 00:37:40,964 --> 00:37:45,284 Speaker 2: that like young women and young men like. Right, the 696 00:37:45,324 --> 00:37:47,764 Speaker 2: social norm around that changed fast. I mean I have 697 00:37:47,844 --> 00:37:52,764 Speaker 2: heard more conversation about women's basketball from my sports breou 698 00:37:52,844 --> 00:37:56,524 Speaker 2: friends in the past six months than I have in 699 00:37:56,524 --> 00:37:59,764 Speaker 2: my entire lifetime before that, Right, And so I think 700 00:38:00,524 --> 00:38:02,404 Speaker 2: encouraging that behavior, I mean, I think, for example, the 701 00:38:02,404 --> 00:38:05,124 Speaker 2: Insane Tournament is a lot more fun. We need these 702 00:38:05,244 --> 00:38:08,004 Speaker 2: kind of two tournaments going on together. You can bet, 703 00:38:08,044 --> 00:38:11,204 Speaker 2: by the way, on on the women's game. I made 704 00:38:11,244 --> 00:38:14,284 Speaker 2: a fair amount of money betting on women's college basketball 705 00:38:14,324 --> 00:38:16,084 Speaker 2: this this march. That was that was you know, a 706 00:38:16,084 --> 00:38:17,844 Speaker 2: way to get into the sport too for certain people. 707 00:38:18,204 --> 00:38:19,884 Speaker 2: But lo, look, I think this is good, and I 708 00:38:19,884 --> 00:38:24,124 Speaker 2: think Kate and Clark needs to demand demand that she 709 00:38:24,284 --> 00:38:26,604 Speaker 2: is paid for the revenue she generates for the league 710 00:38:26,604 --> 00:38:28,644 Speaker 2: because this whole thing wouldn't be happening. Maybe it's not true, 711 00:38:28,644 --> 00:38:32,964 Speaker 2: maybe you'd have some other focal point, inflection point, but no, 712 00:38:33,084 --> 00:38:35,884 Speaker 2: she should. We should have a whole march on the 713 00:38:36,004 --> 00:38:37,884 Speaker 2: NBA offices on Park Avenue. Would have ever be like 714 00:38:37,884 --> 00:38:39,884 Speaker 2: pay Kate and Clark more. I agree on that on 715 00:38:39,924 --> 00:38:42,564 Speaker 2: that point at least, maybe not for the same reasons, 716 00:38:42,564 --> 00:38:44,244 Speaker 2: but like I agree with the conclusion. 717 00:38:45,004 --> 00:38:47,004 Speaker 1: All right, excellent. So we can agree on the conclusion 718 00:38:47,044 --> 00:38:49,244 Speaker 1: and we can hope that when we're having this conversation 719 00:38:49,324 --> 00:38:53,324 Speaker 1: again on episode one thousand and one of Risky Business, 720 00:38:53,724 --> 00:38:56,164 Speaker 1: that we'll be able to look back and say thank 721 00:38:56,244 --> 00:39:00,324 Speaker 1: you to Caitlin Clark for being kind of the catalyst 722 00:39:00,804 --> 00:39:03,884 Speaker 1: for a revolution in the gender pay gap and how 723 00:39:03,924 --> 00:39:05,764 Speaker 1: people compensate women. 724 00:39:05,644 --> 00:39:06,844 Speaker 2: For what they do. 725 00:39:09,484 --> 00:39:11,564 Speaker 1: Ki Business is hosted by me Maria. 726 00:39:11,324 --> 00:39:13,524 Speaker 2: Kannakova and me Nate Silver. 727 00:39:13,924 --> 00:39:17,164 Speaker 1: The show is a co production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. 728 00:39:17,724 --> 00:39:21,484 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Isabel Carter Our Executive producer 729 00:39:21,604 --> 00:39:25,964 Speaker 1: is Jacob Goldstein. Special thanks to Sarah Nix, Sarah Bruger, 730 00:39:26,444 --> 00:39:31,524 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Kira Posey, Greta Cohne, Christina Sullivan, Kerrie Brody, 731 00:39:31,964 --> 00:39:37,044 Speaker 1: Owen Miller, Farah Daygrunge, Jordan McMillan, and Jake Gorsky. If 732 00:39:37,044 --> 00:39:39,204 Speaker 1: you like the show, please rate and review us so 733 00:39:39,284 --> 00:39:41,844 Speaker 1: other people can find us too. Thanks for listening.