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Speaker 1: And Steve Schmidt with the warning here and please to

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Speaker 1: be able to bring with you today for conversation and

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Speaker 1: apple bomb from warsaw and welcome.

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Speaker 2: Oh thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: So we were just talking for a moment before people

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Speaker 1: started joining about how unprecedented what we are seeing form

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Speaker 1: in the United States. And this has happened, this has

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Speaker 1: been made law. And so when we look at Trump's

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Speaker 1: perversely named Big Beautiful Bill as a propaganda package, it's

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Speaker 1: so gigantic, so immense, it was unfathomable and scale and

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Speaker 1: size and cost and damage. One part of it that

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Speaker 1: was stopped was the public land sell off and that's

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Speaker 1: an interesting go going forward detail and learning from how

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Speaker 1: you stop Trump because that's the only area where they

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Speaker 1: were stopped cold. But this Philly adds so much to

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Speaker 1: the debt if you care about fiscal issues, it demolishes

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Speaker 1: indiscriminately and without much thought, the social safety net. It

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Speaker 1: is corrupt with regard to the tax code, inverting it

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Speaker 1: very much into a regressive code, greatest transfer of wealth

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Speaker 1: from the bottom to the top in American history. Rural

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Speaker 1: healthcare will be decimated by this. There will be massive

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Speaker 1: amounts of hospital closures, a lessening of access. But all

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Speaker 1: of those things not very long from now and forever more.

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Speaker 1: As bad as they are, this bill will be remembered,

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Speaker 1: I think, for a singular thing, this bill, without much debate,

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Speaker 1: without any great speeches of denunciation and dissent that will

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Speaker 1: linger in the congressional record. This funded a federal police

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Speaker 1: force which has never existed in the United States. It

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Speaker 1: is by I think any reasonable definition, and you are

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Speaker 1: a sober, serious person, and you can correct me if

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong, if it doesn't meet the definition of a

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Speaker 1: secret police force. Given that these people are masked, they

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Speaker 1: are badgelets. The totality of this is a budget that

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Speaker 1: would put it in the first rank of global militaries,

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Speaker 1: comparable depending on how you count the money, to the

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Speaker 1: French military and nuclear power, with aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines,

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Speaker 1: expeditionary capabilities. The sector lead was being interviewed ice in uniform,

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Speaker 1: full combat kit, in front of an armored vehicle, and

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Speaker 1: he said, and I'm quoting very close, but not precisely.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't work for Karen Bass. He doesn't care what

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Speaker 1: she says or the people in California say. He's with

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Speaker 1: the federal government and the federal government is there to

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Speaker 1: stay and that's the new norm. And yesterday the new

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Speaker 1: normal was five armored vehicles in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: day tactical plan code named Operation Excliber supported by the

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Speaker 1: US Army Federalized Forces, and they invaded MacArthur Park and

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Speaker 1: the OPS orders talk about the threat assessment that this

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Speaker 1: is the place where MS thirteen came to life, and

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Speaker 1: they should expect to be in combat. And there's assessments

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Speaker 1: about the civilian casualties and the elementary schools next door

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Speaker 1: to it, and it is all madness, of course, But

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Speaker 1: I don't think your average American has a handle yet

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Speaker 1: on how transformative this legislation will be any amount of money.

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Speaker 3: And when I talk about transformation, here the transformative pieces

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Speaker 3: of legislation in the last eight years. You had the

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Speaker 3: GI Bill, you had Medicare and Medicaid, the Civil Rights Act,

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Speaker 3: the Voting Rights Actor, you had the Interstate High Commerce

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Speaker 3: Interstate Highway Act. Those are your most transformative pieces of

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Speaker 3: changing the landscape the complexion of the country until this.

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Speaker 3: And so how do you think about the constitution of

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Speaker 3: a federal police force that is now the largest law

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Speaker 3: enforcement entity in the United States? Every single person who

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Speaker 3: made a speech twenty four years ago warning about the

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Speaker 3: Homeland Security Department has been proven to be profaned.

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Speaker 2: How do you see this? So you are right to

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Speaker 2: point to this as the thing in the bill that

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Speaker 2: has the the greatest possibility to do the most long

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Speaker 2: term damage to democracy and to freedom in the United States.

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Speaker 2: What worries me about it is you've already you've named

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Speaker 2: as well, is that it's the first time I've seen

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Speaker 2: how the Trump administration could get around the problem of

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Speaker 2: divided power in the United States. So, in the US

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Speaker 2: we have checks and balances. We all know that, you know,

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Speaker 2: the courts and Congress are supposed to check the president

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Speaker 2: and so on. But there's always been an additional layer

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Speaker 2: of check of restraint on the federal government. And that

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Speaker 2: additional layer has been the power of states that actually

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Speaker 2: a lot of our laws are made locally or at

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Speaker 2: the state level. State governors are very powerful in our

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Speaker 2: political system. That's quite different, by the way, from a

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Speaker 2: lot of European countries where there aren't local entities with

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Speaker 2: that kind of with that kind of power and control.

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Speaker 2: And so any attempt to you know, create a national

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Speaker 2: programmer do nationwide arrests on any kind of large scale

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Speaker 2: was always going to be stopped at the state level,

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Speaker 2: and it's I mean, one of the reasons I suspect

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Speaker 2: why it's never been tried. What worries me the most

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Speaker 2: about this, this ice police force, whatever it's going to

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Speaker 2: be called, is that it seems to be designed to

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Speaker 2: overcome that. As you say, it's a force that, at

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Speaker 2: least so far as it's been used, it's people who

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Speaker 2: are dressed like military combatants, carrying military grade weapons. Many

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Speaker 2: of them have had their faces masked so we didn't

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Speaker 2: know who they are. They are going into residential neighborhoods

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Speaker 2: where they are carrying out mass arrests of some kind.

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Speaker 2: For the moment, I suppose most Americans are telling themselves, well,

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Speaker 2: it's only it's directed to legal immigrants, you know, so

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Speaker 2: I'm safe. But once you have a force like that

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Speaker 2: in place, what's to stop you from using it in

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Speaker 2: other ways against other kinds of people. And we've already

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Speaker 2: seen people being accidentally arrested. People who are citizens or

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Speaker 2: who have a right to remain in the United States,

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Speaker 2: We've seen them already be arrested. We've seen this force,

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Speaker 2: you know, you use violence against ordinary people are who

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Speaker 2: are simply standing in their way. And once that begins

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Speaker 2: to happen, you know, you what worries me is this

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Speaker 2: feeling of you know, people will get used to it.

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Speaker 2: They'll become accustomed to it. They'll stop seeing it as

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Speaker 2: unusual or strange. They'll begin to assume that it's normal

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Speaker 2: that the federal government should have that kind of power

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Speaker 2: and be able to wield that kind of violence. And

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Speaker 2: then they'll begin to make excuses. You know, so, Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's only illegal immigrants, all right, it's only people who

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Speaker 2: violated the law in some way, or it's only people

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Speaker 2: who've come up, you know, who've deserved it. They've done

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Speaker 2: something bad to the president or to the federal government,

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Speaker 2: or they're protesting in some illegal way. I mean, you

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Speaker 2: can you know this is a this is something that

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Speaker 2: we know from history. You know, there's a there's a

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Speaker 2: kind of mission creep that you get when you have

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Speaker 2: that kind of power, when you have that kind of

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Speaker 2: government power. And that's what worries me the most about

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Speaker 2: this police force, whatever we're going to, whatever it's going

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Speaker 2: to be called. I suppose the other thing that worries

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Speaker 2: me is the I mean, there was there were actually

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Speaker 2: people making speeches about it. Hakim Jeffreys had that long

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Speaker 2: soliloquy in Congress, and I've heard other Democrats, other members

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Speaker 2: of Congress have spoken both about this ice and about

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Speaker 2: the bill and the damage that the bill is going

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Speaker 2: to do in a lot of places. What to me

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Speaker 2: is disturbing is how many is Republicans, senators and congressmen

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Speaker 2: who are going along with this even though they clearly

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Speaker 2: know what it is, and they clearly know that it's wrong.

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Speaker 2: You know, people have made fun of Lisa Murkowski because

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Speaker 2: she's a Senator who has seemed to understand the dangers

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Speaker 2: inherent in the bill, and she took a trade off

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Speaker 2: supposedly because of some deal about Alaska, and she decided

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Speaker 2: to vote for it. But actually, I mean, look at

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Speaker 2: the rest of them. I mean, you know, all of

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Speaker 2: everybody who voted for it is responsible for changing the

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Speaker 2: nature of the relationship between the states and the federal government.

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Speaker 2: You know, everybody who voted for it is responsible for

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Speaker 2: the cuts to healthcare for poor and poor working people.

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Speaker 2: It's not just people who a unemployed, it's people who

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Speaker 2: who who work and don't make a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: They're all responsible for it, and they have done and

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Speaker 2: they have said remarkably little, even even people you know,

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Speaker 2: you think of someone like Ted Cruz or somebody you know,

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Speaker 2: you know somebody who they're there. There are people who've

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Speaker 2: who've made great drama in their careers about defending states'

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Speaker 2: rights and defend the rights of Americans, and you know

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Speaker 2: that have seemed to be advocates of free speech or

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Speaker 2: sticklers for the Constitution, and you saw them all cave.

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Speaker 2: And I have to say, even though I wrote a

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Speaker 2: book about this, I wrote a book called Twilight of Democracy,

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Speaker 2: which was about why people are attracted to authoritarianism. I

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Speaker 2: wrote a cover story in The Atlantic a few years

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Speaker 2: ago that was about collaboration and collusion. So I've thought

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Speaker 2: about the subject a lot, and I've written history books

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Speaker 2: that touch on it, and I still don't get it, Like,

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Speaker 2: I still don't see why if you're a Republican senator,

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Speaker 2: you know, someone who has an enormous amount of power

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Speaker 2: and one hundred people working for you and a lot

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Speaker 2: of job security, you know, you get elected for six years.

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Speaker 2: I still don't understand why you have to vote for

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Speaker 2: something like this. And I.

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Speaker 4: Look forward to hearing more people explain it to me.

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Speaker 4: Tom Tellis is a perfect example of this. And there's

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Speaker 4: nothing that brings me closer to public and youurysm than

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Speaker 4: when I hear a version of what he said, which is, well,

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Speaker 4: I just haven't had the freedom to vote.

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Speaker 1: The way I wanted, and you know, I've had to

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Speaker 1: do this. But now I'm going to retire. So now

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Speaker 1: I'm finally free. And I sit there and I think, huh,

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Speaker 1: you're You're a United States Center. You can do whatever

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Speaker 1: you want? And where does that come from?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I can, As I said, I've tried to

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Speaker 2: explain it. Some of it is a desire to be

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Speaker 2: part of the movement. You know, they feel this movement

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Speaker 2: of history. They think they feel it, and they want

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Speaker 2: to be part of it. They don't want to stand

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Speaker 2: apart from it. Some of it may be in the

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Speaker 2: case and this is very sad in our country. Some

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Speaker 2: of it may be personal fear. I mean they are

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Speaker 2: you know, we now know that people. You know, if

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Speaker 2: if you're if you're a senator and you vote the

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Speaker 2: wrong way and you go home to your state, you'll

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Speaker 2: have people threatening you or your family. And we know this,

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Speaker 2: among other things, from Romney's autobiography where he or his

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Speaker 2: biography Sorry it was written by my colleague, where Romney

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Speaker 2: describes talking to colleagues in the Senate who say, well,

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Speaker 2: it's all very well for you. Mit, you're rich. You know,

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Speaker 2: you can afford security and I can't. And so there's

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Speaker 2: there's there's that aspect to it. A lot of them,

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Speaker 2: I think, and you can, you know, Lindsey Graham is

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Speaker 2: a great example, but there are others a lot of

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Speaker 2: them tell themselves a story about how if I stay

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Speaker 2: in this system, if I remain on the inside, I

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Speaker 2: can be influential, you know, if I if I remain

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Speaker 2: in the movement, I can talk to Trump, but I

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Speaker 2: can get something out of him. I can get something done,

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Speaker 2: you know. So there's a there's that kind of story people,

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Speaker 2: which is which is not at all different from the

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Speaker 2: kinds of stories people told themselves. And you know, occupied

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Speaker 2: France or or you know, or indeed Communis occupied Poland

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Speaker 2: you know, if I remain in the party, if you know,

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Speaker 2: I can do some good. I mean, there's that version.

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Speaker 2: Most people don't like to think of themselves as being

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Speaker 2: bad people, so they have a they'll have an explanation

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Speaker 2: for it, you know. So it's that combination of fear

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Speaker 2: and and and and, as I said, this feeling that

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Speaker 2: you know, the crowd is moving and I need to

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Speaker 2: stay in the crowd. But but I but you know,

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Speaker 2: I can, But I can, as I said, I can

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Speaker 2: give you these explanations, and I can point you to

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Speaker 2: earlier moments in history when when people made excuses like that,

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Speaker 2: and I can quote you from them. And you know

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Speaker 2: a great book by Cheslow Milos called Captive Mind, which

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Speaker 2: is about exactly that it's phenomenon in communist Poland in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen forties. But even then, I look at I

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Speaker 2: look at people in the US Senate, as I said,

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Speaker 2: these are you know, many cases. These are wealthy people.

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Speaker 2: They have you know, they have enormous support, They've been

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Speaker 2: elected from their states, they have huge staffs. You know,

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Speaker 2: they don't have the nerve to push back against any

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Speaker 2: of this, or even to go through the bill and say,

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Speaker 2: do we need this measure? Do we need that measure?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: Or or or do or do work in groups to

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Speaker 2: change it. I mean, it's it's even as I said,

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Speaker 2: even though I can I can give you rational explanations

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Speaker 2: it's still harder to understand you.

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Speaker 1: You. I'm not trying to quibble with something you said,

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Speaker 1: but you use the tense that hit me, and I

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Speaker 1: want to I want to talk about it. You said,

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Speaker 1: the Republicans in the Senate who are going along with this?

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Speaker 1: When are we across the line where they have fully

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Speaker 1: gone along with.

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Speaker 2: All of it?

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Speaker 1: And so I and I and I asked you this

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Speaker 1: question about where that boundary is because the second thing

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about it is, and

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Speaker 1: just foreshadow the question, is you and I came out

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Speaker 1: of the I think fair to say the right of

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Speaker 1: senator line as it existed an American politics, and every person,

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Speaker 1: most every person like all of them right, not right,

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Speaker 1: not ninety nine percent right. There is an infinite testinably

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Speaker 1: small number of people and kid singer Liz Chain in

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Speaker 1: Apple Bombs, Steve Schmidt, small small, small, small number of

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Speaker 1: people who have operated at very high levels in the

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Speaker 1: American government, in the republic Party, in the political establishment,

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Speaker 1: who did not get in line with this. And so

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Speaker 1: for us and I think you have to be careful

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Speaker 1: about judging people, the voters too much judgment of the

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Speaker 1: voters who got conned in had a bad choice. But

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Speaker 1: I have a lot of judgment towards a lot of

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Speaker 1: these people because we all were supposed to believe in

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Speaker 1: the same thing, and we were all in the same places,

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Speaker 1: in the same meetings, where we were in a business

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Speaker 1: that required belief until it became completely hollow in an instant.

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Speaker 1: And as somebody who grew up in New Jersey that

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Speaker 1: the person who rose to the top of the political

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Speaker 1: culture personality it threatens the Republic is Donald Trumps just

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Speaker 1: another layer of icing of farcical absurdism right on top

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Speaker 1: of tragedy, on top of tragedy, on top of what

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't know, but I don't get a

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Speaker 1: chance to talk to a lot of people right who

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Speaker 1: are in that space. But literally every person right that

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Speaker 1: in that political space that we've known, said Lindsay Graham.

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Speaker 1: I spend an enormous amount of time with Lindsey Graham,

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Speaker 1: with John McCain in a presidential campaign, lived with him

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Speaker 1: for a year and a half. And how do you

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Speaker 1: feel about that? Is it? Do you ever feel lonely

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Speaker 1: about it? Do you do you ever? Because because you

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Speaker 1: have certainly held the line about what it is that

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Speaker 1: you said, it is that you believe in and so

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Speaker 1: very lonely place.

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Speaker 2: I suppose. I mean, I'm lucky. I'm not in the

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Speaker 2: US all the time. I have a wide range of friends.

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Speaker 2: I was not in politics the way you were in politics.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm a I'm a writer and a historian

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Speaker 2: and a journalist rather than a you know, a person

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Speaker 2: who works on campaigns. But I did have a period

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Speaker 2: of realizing that I would have to make new friends.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and literally, I'm I'm often asked, I you

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Speaker 2: know this this phenomenon that we're describing, which it's sometimes

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Speaker 2: called polarization, you know, as people split apart and a

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Speaker 2: part of the political spectrum becomes radical, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it includes your former friends. I have had a lot

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Speaker 2: of conversations with people in other countries who have had this,

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Speaker 2: and they asked me for advice what do I do?

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Speaker 2: And my advice always I think it's maybe it sounds superficial,

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Speaker 2: but I say, make new friends, and so I you know,

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Speaker 2: in my case, it all started a little bit earlier.

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Speaker 2: It's a longer story, but you know, I began looking

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Speaker 2: for new friends and new contacts, and I realized that

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Speaker 2: the world that I had lived in for a long

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Speaker 2: time wasn't the same that had in my case, divided

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Speaker 2: in multiple countries in very bitter ways. And I found

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Speaker 2: people who aligned with me, you know, and I moved on.

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Speaker 2: And so I can't really say I feel lonely. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I actually feel surrounded by a lot of people who

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Speaker 2: agree with me. And it's interesting. Some of them, you know,

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Speaker 2: are people like you who come from the right, or

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Speaker 2: who worked in the Republican Party, or worked on the

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Speaker 2: Polish right, or worked on you know, were part of

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Speaker 2: the British Tory Party. Some of them come from there,

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Speaker 2: and some of them came from what used to be

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Speaker 2: the left, you know, people who I would have disagreed

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Speaker 2: with about all kinds of things, you know, ten years

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Speaker 2: ago or twenty years ago, and I might not have

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Speaker 2: spoken to or I would have thought they were wrong

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Speaker 2: or they were on the wrong side of something that

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Speaker 2: I thought was important. But what I what I've found

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Speaker 2: over the last several years, is that there are these

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Speaker 2: set of fundamental values that matter more than whether you

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Speaker 2: think taxes should be high or low, you know, or

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Speaker 2: whether you know, what's your opinion on how healthcare should

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Speaker 2: be structured. I mean, there's something there's some things that

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Speaker 2: are much more basic, and I found that that those

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Speaker 2: basic beliefs I find people who have them in different

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Speaker 2: parts of the political spectrum, and those are now my

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Speaker 2: friends or my colleagues, you know, or my or my acquaintances.

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Speaker 2: And so no, actually I didn't feel lonely. I feel

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Speaker 2: like there are a lot of people, again not just Americans,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of Europeans also who feel who who

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Speaker 2: see the same kind of threat, this threat of extremism,

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Speaker 2: the threat of autocracy taking over their political systems, and they,

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Speaker 2: you know, and they and they've joined together to try

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Speaker 2: and think about what to do about it. So that's

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Speaker 2: that's how I feel. But again, I wasn't. I wasn't

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Speaker 2: in the same world that you were in.

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Speaker 1: Had Off hit in nineteen thirty hits his high water

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Speaker 1: mark thirty eight percent of the vote thirty two, the

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Speaker 1: Nazis are around thirty percent. They have been kept out

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Speaker 1: of government, violence explodes all over the country. Hitler is

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Speaker 1: made chancellor. There's one other Nazi in the in the

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Speaker 1: German cabinet. And then and in that fall of thirty two,

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Speaker 1: Hitler gives his speech in Dusel Dwarf to the industrialists

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Speaker 1: which you know, loosely was the equivalent of the Chamber

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Speaker 1: of Commerce. And he and he basically, you know, concedes,

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Speaker 1: I know I'm not very popular here, but you don't

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Speaker 1: have anything to worry about with me. The Communists, on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, will kill all of you. And really

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Speaker 1: he lays out this proposition to the broad middle of Germany,

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Speaker 1: and he's institution that don't like the Nazis. You have

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Speaker 1: the German aristocracy, you have the German military, which is

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Speaker 1: comprised a lot of aristocrats, you have the German clergy,

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Speaker 1: and you had a total collapse of the center. And

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Speaker 1: I think this is where Germany and the United States.

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Speaker 1: And we don't really talk about this very often, but

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Speaker 1: American soldiers who fought in World War Two came to

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Speaker 1: understand the country that was most like America was Germany

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Speaker 1: and that to this day we ethnically we have more

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Speaker 1: Germans than any other population in the United States by

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Speaker 1: by ethnic heritage. And Germany was never a country that

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Speaker 1: was susceptible to a dictatorship of the left, but a

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Speaker 1: dictatorship and the threat of the left was enough to

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Speaker 1: create a fascist government in the United States. What Trump

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Speaker 1: has benefited from is the stigmatization of the Democrats, some

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Speaker 1: of the extreme policies, being able to define them as extreme,

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Speaker 1: being able to define them as left. Trump loves that

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Speaker 1: a Democratic Socialists as.

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Speaker 2: One in New York.

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Speaker 1: He would love to run against a Democratic Socialist in

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Speaker 1: the general election. I don't think a socialist candidate could

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Speaker 1: ever be elected in the United States. I think they

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Speaker 1: was ever conceivable for them to take power in Germany

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Speaker 1: almost one hundred years ago. But the threat or perception,

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Speaker 1: the propaganda that they could is enough to create the

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Speaker 1: fear that Hey, and the fundamental message of the Nazis

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Speaker 1: was we're going to kill them. We're not going to

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Speaker 1: kill you, They're going to kill you. And there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of that that's inherent in the Trumpian In the

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Speaker 1: Trumpian message, what does a centrist democrat, the tradition of

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Speaker 1: a John Kenny, what does somebody have to step up

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Speaker 1: and say to really get your intention in this moment

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Speaker 1: where you're like, wow, that person just hit the nail

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Speaker 1: on the head. What they said was what was needed

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Speaker 1: to be said in the context is because I don't

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Speaker 1: hear it really anywhere.

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Speaker 2: First of all, there is a there is a really

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Speaker 2: important difference. So actually, at the time of the Hitler

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Speaker 2: takeover of Nazi Germany, there had been a communist revolution

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Speaker 2: in Munich, and there had also been a real, a

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Speaker 2: genuine bullshic revolution in Russia which was throughout you know,

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Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty actually launched a war and tried to

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Speaker 2: invade Poland. And was I mean, it was like a

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Speaker 2: real threat. There really were communists and they were and

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Speaker 2: they were totalitarians, and they were you know, bloody and

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Speaker 2: war mongering. And so when when Hitler said that he wasn't,

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, there was there was something real

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Speaker 2: that people were genuinely afraid of her. The weird thing,

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Speaker 2: weird thing about the United States right now is there

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Speaker 2: is no equivalent of the Bolsheviks in the United States.

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Speaker 2: There is no you know, bloody tyrants who are about

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Speaker 2: to invade America. You know, when we talk about democratic

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Speaker 2: socialists in the United States, we're talking about people who

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Speaker 2: believe in things like universal health care, which is I'm

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Speaker 2: talking to you right now in Poland, which is I

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Speaker 2: mean universal health care is it would be untouchable. I

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Speaker 2: mean nobody and even the Polish far right doesn't want

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Speaker 2: to dismantle it, you know, you know, you're and even

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Speaker 2: even when I hear this, you know, the candidate to

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Speaker 2: be mayor of New York, you know, being vilified because

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Speaker 2: he to rent control. I mean, I think, you know, Okay,

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Speaker 2: maybe rent control is a dumb policy, and maybe it's

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Speaker 2: a bad idea to have, you know, the city owned

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Speaker 2: grocery stores. Okay, like those are those are silly ideas,

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Speaker 2: but they're not like he's not talking about bringing in

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Speaker 2: the Bolshevik hordes to wipe out the aristocracy or put

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Speaker 2: people in gulags, you know. So, so what Trump has

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Speaker 2: successfully done, or partially successfully, is He's created this boogeyman

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Speaker 2: about the left, which I think doesn't reflect anything like reality.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and you know, I've written critically about some

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Speaker 2: left wing extremist language, and you know, they're they're there,

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Speaker 2: there are many not smart people out there and so on.

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Speaker 2: But I just don't see that there's a It's not

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Speaker 2: like there's the equivalent of the Bolsheviks. You know, he

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Speaker 2: uses this language and he talks about the radical Marxist left.

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Speaker 2: You think Kamala Harris is a radical Marxist, you know,

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Speaker 2: let me introduce you to some radical Marxists, you know,

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Speaker 2: or or Joe Biden. Joe Biden's not a radical Marxist,

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Speaker 2: but they've they they've created this sense of of horror

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Speaker 2: and fear and anger, but you know, out of nothing.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's I mean that that's one of the

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Speaker 2: things that the internet can do for you. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you can you can create almost entirely false narratives, and

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Speaker 2: Trump has been has been a master of doing that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I do think that there are you know,

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Speaker 2: they haven't all risen to the surface yet, and they

432
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 2: haven't all uh you know, not all of them have

433
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 2: full national attention. But it seems to me there are

434
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: actually a lot of centrist Democrats out there. I mean,

435
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: there's Chris Senator Murphy, there's Governor Pritzker, There's Pete Bodagitch.

436
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: If you like him, you know, there's Gavin Newsom. Like

437
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: him or don't like him. I mean, these are these

438
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: are not people who are extreme leftists. Uh And as

439
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: I said, even the people who we call extreme leftists

440
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: aren't in any international standard all that left wing either.

441
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: But but I mean, there there seems to me there

442
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: are a lot of moderate Democrats, probably most of the

443
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: Democrats in Congress, most of them in the Senate who

444
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: who stand for the values that I think most Americans

445
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: still stand for. And they believe in the Bill of Rights,

446
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 2: and they believe in the separation of powers, and they

447
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: believe in you know, they believe that there should be

448
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 2: a safety net for the poor. You know, by the way,

449
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: the American safety net being much smaller and narrower than

450
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 2: what you would find here here in Europe. But but

451
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 2: this isn't a way the oddity of Trump is I mean,

452
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: Hitler also arose in this atmosphere of terrible economic crisis,

453
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: in this horrific war, and there was runaway inflation, and

454
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 2: there had been this decade of violence. And what have

455
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: we had? We had, I mean, we had COVID, which

456
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: may be part of the explanation. But it's not like

457
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 2: the United States is collapsing in economic disarray or you know,

458
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: or we have one hundred percent inflation or we have

459
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 2: anything like that. You know, what Trump has done is

460
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 2: created the sense of menace just in his language. And

461
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: he's been allowed to do that by cowardly Republicans and

462
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 2: people around him who've gone along with it.

463
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: So I think if I was to observe this and

464
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: try to explain it, to you under the scenario where

465
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: you had just woken up from a coma after ten

466
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: years and here we are and have to bring you

467
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: up to speed.

468
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 3: Is that.

469
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: Trump produces a television show and he has a captive audience.

470
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: He has a set is the White House, he goes

471
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: other places, but mostly, you know, we see Trump in

472
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: a couple familiar poses, answering questions. It's not ever really challenged,

473
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: nor is he particularly effectively responded to. But this, but

474
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: this show, I mean, I suppose you could measure it right.

475
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: It's by the account of people who were watching cable

476
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: news and all the proliferating elements. But I think there's

477
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: huge parts of the population that have obviously tuned it

478
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: all out aren't affected by it. I remember being at

479
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: my sister's place in New Hampshire, I mean three summers ago,

480
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: and the television work was on and I was trying

481
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: to read something and I just looked at her, good Jennifer,

482
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: like what are we watching? And it was a show

483
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: about reality show and about people who have disorders, and

484
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: a woman was was her compulsion. She was eating the

485
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: stuffing of her couch and I was like, what are

486
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: we watching? Like I turned it off right, and it's

487
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: and it's a version of that.

488
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 4: Right.

489
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: But but politics has become a forum for the mentally

490
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: ill or undiagnosed psychiatric patients right, who found many of

491
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: them their way into Congress or onto the staffs, or

492
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: into the pundic class. And in the totality of all

493
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 1: of this, I think you can make an argument that, well,

494
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: you know, reality always finds a way of intruding, right,

495
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: the suffering right comes and you can't bullshite your way

496
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: through it. But what is the way to wake up

497
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: of people from a stupor from a languor from a

498
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: apathy as something's bearing down on them? This history offer

499
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: any lessons at intercession before things get worse and go

500
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: into the abyss at this stage or at this cycle

501
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: of government assertion of its power and authority that's arrested

502
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: them or there you know, are there examples of that?

503
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: So, first of all, a lot of what Trump does,

504
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: as you say, this reality show that he builds a

505
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: lot of it, I think is designed to make people

506
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 2: apathetic when you have this constant lying and he lies,

507
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: you know, many times every day, and he lies about

508
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: things that we all know he's lying, you know, when

509
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 2: he you know, the famous example was at the beginning

510
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 2: of his first term when he insisted that there have

511
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 2: been more people on the ellipse at the mall when

512
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: he was when he was inaugurated than there were, and

513
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 2: he made his press spokesman lie about it, even though

514
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: we all saw it on TV. And then, of course

515
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,959
Speaker 2: the grotesque example is the is the election of twenty twenty.

516
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: So he lies constantly and repeatedly, and when that happens,

517
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: you have the phenomenon of people saying, I don't know

518
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 2: anymore what's true. You know, this person says that, and

519
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: he's you know, this can't possibly be true. You get

520
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: people checking out of politics because you know, if there's

521
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 2: no if there's no true, and you don't know what's

522
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: true and what's false, and how can you believe in

523
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: anything or care about it. And that's actually, I mean,

524
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 2: that is a Proutinus tactic. I mean that is borrowed

525
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 2: directly from what the Russians do in order to get

526
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 2: people to deactivate them, to demotivate them and demobilize them.

527
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: You know, you tell lies all the time, you know,

528
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 2: you change the narratives constantly, and you make people confused

529
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: and then they don't want any part of politics. And

530
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: a lot of actually activism in Russia, at least until

531
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: the war, and until Alexi Navolney Divide, was about looking

532
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: for ways to, you know, bil build a community around

533
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: the things that people knew were true, and in the

534
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 2: case of Russia, that was about corruptions. So Navalney was

535
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: an anti Alexi Navalne who died in a in a

536
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 2: prison camp, was an anti corruption campaigner, and he built

537
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: a kind of movement around making very high quality, sometimes

538
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 2: funny videos about the money that had been stolen and

539
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,919
Speaker 2: relating it then directly to people's lives. So, look, whot

540
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 2: instole this money? Need built a palace, and that's why

541
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: you have a crappy hospital and you have potholes in

542
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 2: your road. So he constantly was trying to make this connection.

543
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 2: But there are many examples of political movements, you know,

544
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: from countries around the world, including some that aren't quite

545
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: the same as the US and have different circumstances, but

546
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 2: almost all of them need to begin with the understanding

547
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: that the argument we're having in the United States isn't

548
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 2: really the old kind of argument, So we're not really

549
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: having an argument anymore about policy. It's not about Republican

550
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 2: policies in American and Democratic policies. And you know, will

551
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 2: taxes go up or down? You know, will we have

552
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 2: this kind of infrastructure bill or that kind of infrastructure bill.

553
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: You know, we're now talking about we now need to

554
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 2: have politics be much more about defending institutions and defending

555
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: very core values and explaining to people what's at stake.

556
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: You know, what's the stake is not whether you know,

557
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: you'll have you know, a thousand dollars one way or

558
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: the other to pay in tax. What's at stake is

559
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: the way your country is going to be run. And

560
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 2: finding a way to refocus politics on on that is

561
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: a is the beginning of the problem. But yeah, I

562
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: mean there's a I may write something about this in

563
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: due course. And I coincidentally, I taught a class at

564
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 2: Johns Hopkins over the last semester with two colleagues, and

565
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 2: the class was about resistance to dictatorship, and we looked

566
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 2: at different movements in different countries. And of course when

567
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 2: we designed the class a year earlier, we were about

568
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 2: the United States. You know, we were looking at you know,

569
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 2: Mexico and Russia and you know other countries. But but

570
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 2: but but I but the beginning to think that way,

571
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 2: beginning to think about but where is the real argument

572
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 2: and what is it about? I think that will that's

573
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 2: the most important thing you can do to wake people.

574
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 2: But as I said, I do see democratic politicians talking

575
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: like that, you know, I do see some of them

576
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 2: trying to make those points. I do think it's a

577
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 2: wasteland out there with you know, with nobody, nobody saying anything.

578
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: You know, there's a we also have this tendency I

579
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 2: don't know where it comes from, you know, whenever anything

580
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: is going wrong to blame the Democrats as if it's

581
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 2: as if it's their fault that the Republicans are are

582
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: destroying the constitution. You know, you listen to some of them,

583
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 2: Some of them are some of them are making sense.

584
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean listen, there's no there's no question about it.

585
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: But but but to me, what you point out is

586
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: a political emergency and urgency. And as I listened to you,

587
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: and as I hope you know that the people who

588
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: are with us listen to you, that they can appreciate

589
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: how devastating, devastating the Democratic position was around Biden's fitness,

590
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: his age, the gaslighting, because fundamentally, what happened and there's

591
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: a question the Democrats will have to answer running for president.

592
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: Areingb asked the question? The question is what happened? And

593
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: that's not a question about forensic investigation. It's about will

594
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: you tell the truth to me right now? And what

595
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: happened is the Democratic Party lost to the most prolific

596
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 1: liar in American history two elections on fundamental questions of honesty,

597
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: and this last one it was honesty about the border,

598
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: honesty about the economy, and honesty about Biden's fitness. And

599
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 1: when you have a political party that loses an election

600
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: to Donald Trump on questions of honesty and this is

601
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: the consequence of that loss, that loss is a very

602
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: very big deal and that has to be talked about directly,

603
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: honestly and ruthlessly. And the uh, the fact of the

604
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: matter is is that whomever the Democratic nominee will be

605
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: that can win a presidential election, there's going to be

606
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 1: a break from the from the past and a break

607
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: from having to defend some indefensible stuff. And you know,

608
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: and we talked about that mythology to the left. I mean,

609
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 1: you know, look, Kamala Harris and I think everybody answered

610
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: looks at this and evaluates it the wrong way. I do.

611
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 1: I think that Kamala Harris believes that federal prisoner should

612
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: receive tax payer funded sexual assignment surgery. I do not.

613
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: But why did she answer the question like that? And

614
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: she answered the question like that and failed the massive

615
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: character test? And you have a generation of Democratic candidates

616
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: that have tried to appease some social media, a morphous

617
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: set of values and issues that have been exploited by

618
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: a demogogue, by a fascist, by whatever it is you

619
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: want to think about them, to great, great, great effect.

620
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: And the Democrats are going to have to offer a

621
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: reform message and agenda and vision. I think that pulls

622
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: us into the future.

623
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: And offers a.

624
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: Pathway out of this and that, and that fundamentally, to me,

625
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: starts with an ethics reform passage UH ethics reform legislation,

626
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: and then legislation that talks about how you really weaken

627
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: the executive But when you look at Republicans in this moment,

628
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: maga politicians, it appears that they don't think they're ever

629
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: not going to be in power again. And I find

630
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: that to be very very curious, very curious. That they don't,

631
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 1: that they don't seem to think that there's an election ahead,

632
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 1: that they're underwater on the numbers.

633
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 2: I find that equally curious. I don't have a you know,

634
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 2: I can't tell you that they're going to steal the

635
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 2: election or you know, I don't want to be apocalyptic,

636
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 2: but you're right, they aren't acting like people who are

637
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 2: planning to lose. I mean, even I've said to a

638
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: couple of people, I don't even really understand this drive

639
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 2: to build huge amount of executive power, to give more

640
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 2: and more power to the president, to make him a king,

641
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: to depride him, you know, to make sure he's not

642
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,760
Speaker 2: blocked or by any courts or by anything. I mean, okay,

643
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: what are they then going to be happy to give

644
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: up that power to I don't know, President Ocasio Cortes

645
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: or I don't know, President some other person whom they

646
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: don't like. Are they willing to hand that power over

647
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 2: to someone whose views are very different or even President

648
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 2: Gavin Newsom? I don't know. It's it's it does feel

649
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: like they're doing something that they're not going to ever

650
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: want to give up. And I and I don't have

651
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: a I'm not going to lay out a scenario there,

652
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 2: but it is it's an extremely odd way to behave

653
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,439
Speaker 2: you know, the point about our constitution, and the point

654
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: about which you know has many it's it has many flaws,

655
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 2: but the point about it was is it was a

656
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 2: set of rules that were possible for both parties to

657
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 2: live with more you know, up until recently, more or less,

658
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 2: you know that you that you there was a set

659
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 2: of rules. You've played by the rules when you when

660
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 2: you won, you didn't change them, and that gave the

661
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 2: other side the opportunity to compete for power once again.

662
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: And when you lost, well at least you knew that

663
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: the person who won had some constraints on him. You know,

664
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 2: there was there was you know, you weren't. You were

665
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 2: never seeding over total power to your political opponents. You know,

666
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: there was always some some room for you know, room

667
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: for opposition, and room for minority views and and checks

668
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: and balances and so on. If they're going to take

669
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: away all the checks and balances, then we're entering a

670
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 2: very different political world. And you know, in that world,

671
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 2: why would anybody ever want to give up power? It's

672
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 2: too dangerous. You know, if you give up power, then

673
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 2: you know, you can be arrested, or you can lose

674
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 2: or you can have your money taken away or you know,

675
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: I mean and and and that's what you know, that's

676
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: the you know, that's the that's the danger of what

677
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 2: they're doing, is there is there making it too tempting

678
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 2: to to to never want to for the for this

679
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: Republican Party, not to ever want to lose power.

680
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: I just saw someone on the on one of the

681
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: comments saying Kamala had the election stolen from her, and

682
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 1: that person's as crazy as as any of the MAGA people.

683
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: But right, I mean, what's what what's the what's the

684
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: chances that you think I mean if the center and

685
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: I don't I don't mean a center political position as

686
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: a compromise between two points on the line. I mean

687
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: the Tenison sense, the center of holding or values our institutions.

688
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: But a reciprocal extremism that answers Trump I don't think

689
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: will ever succeed. They will have a right wing dictation,

690
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 1: will never have a left wing one in the United States,

691
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: and so that would be that would be crushed. And

692
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: there you go. And as I read the comments, anytime

693
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 1: you talk about the Democratic Party and what happened in

694
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 1: twenty four the fact that the national Party is at

695
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: twenty seven percent approval level. People simply say no, don't

696
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: want to hear it. And as one of the people

697
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: that walks with no hypocrisy on the subject walking, Dean

698
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: Phillips out to make a principal stand, I think it's

699
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: a huge problem, you know, for for Democrats, there is

700
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 1: a there is a deep, deep intolerance on the left

701
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: of people that just don't want to hear it, that

702
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: you know, are are in a bubble and there's a

703
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: good party and an evil party. And the reality of

704
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: it is that the American people can't stand hypocrisy, and

705
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: they see a lot of it. They see it when

706
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer goes out and when US Senator Menendez is

707
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: arrested with the gold bars, he says, well, you know,

708
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 1: he's a great public servant for the people in New Jersey.

709
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 1: And so all of that has poison trust, don't I

710
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 1: don't know how you restore trust other than to tell

711
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: the truth and the idea that there is. You know,

712
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 1: the choice is the choice, and people didn't want the choice,

713
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: right in eighty percent of the country saying we don't

714
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: want the choice between these two guys, and the choice

715
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 1: is what the Democrats gave there. You know, campaign was

716
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: supposedly a defense at democ Perce. There was no democratic

717
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: there was there was no there was no democratic process

718
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: for picking her in. You know, it ended in disaster.

719
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: And I think it was all predictable. And so I

720
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: when I objectively look at this, I think we have

721
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: two elections, right, and we have we have two elections

722
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: before the country is forever transformed. And so that that

723
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: the first ones are in twenty six, we're gonna have

724
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: an indication in twenty five by the size of these victories.

725
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: And in New Jersey and Virginia, what portends the Republican Congress,

726
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: You're gonna have stalemate for two years and.

727
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 2: Then you're gonna have jd.

728
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:49,879
Speaker 1: Vance is likely to be the be the Republican nominee,

729
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: though it could be Tucker Carlson or it could be

730
00:47:54,840 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: Don Junior right where it could be Marco Rubio, but

731
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: but whatever, Uh, it's a small list of no known

732
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: quantities there, and the next president's going to have to

733
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: act with a lot of strength and then a lot

734
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: of restraint to repair all of these all of these institutions.

735
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: Very very quickly. And do you see anybody on the

736
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:31,479
Speaker 1: on the horizon who was saying things that inspire you

737
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 1: that that person gets it. I'll give you an example.

738
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: One for me is Jake Aukincloss, right, Jake Jake Aukincloss,

739
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: member of Congress from Massachusetts, comput the Marine Corps officer

740
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: completely understands the necessities, the necessities of the moment. Is

741
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 1: there anybody for you that's like speaking to you, that's

742
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: that's resonating with you, that things are saying. JB. Pritzker

743
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 1: says a lot of things that resonate with me. Pritz Ker,

744
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: Chris Murphy. I wrote a piece last year before the

745
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: election about that a group of Democrats who had entered

746
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: most two of them had entered Congress in twenty eighteen.

747
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: And I really like and admire a lot of this.

748
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: Is Abby Spanberger, Mikey Cheryl, Jason Crowe. There's a you know,

749
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: there's a It seems to me there are quite a

750
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: few people like that. They're not all at the very

751
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: top level, but there are plenty of people in the

752
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: party who seemed to me to have you know, as

753
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: you say, it's not about being centrist in the way

754
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: of being halfway in between the left and the right.

755
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: It's about people who very deeply believe in American values

756
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: and who understand the importance of institutions, and who want

757
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 1: to defend and protect them. And I feel like I

758
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: do hear that from from from from enough people. You know.

759
00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: The issue is presumably whether in a culture that values

760
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 2: outrage and celebrity, partly because that's the way our media

761
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,720
Speaker 2: and social media are now constructed, can those people rise

762
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: to the top? Can they? You know, can a normal person,

763
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 2: you know, a normal honest American who has had experience

764
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 2: in the military or who has you know, who's thought

765
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 2: deeply about policy. Can someone like that still become president?

766
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 2: That that, to me is it is the deeper question,

767
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 2: because I do see people like that out there. What's

768
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 2: your dot tell you?

769
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: I think it's possible, Yeah, guy, Like for me, right, like,

770
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: the ideal is right, It's tough for me to like,

771
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: I can't right, I just have that there's a cord

772
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: of American idealism, and may that right? And one thing

773
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: that it's true is that the country has produced the

774
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: right people in the right moments, almost almost providentially.

775
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 2: Out of out of nowhere.

776
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: Lincoln Lincoln. Lincoln Well Grant is an example of that.

777
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: Sherman is an example of that, the three of them together,

778
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 1: the you know, uh Dwight Eisenhower is an example of that.

779
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: You know, all of the World War two generals. And

780
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:28,879
Speaker 1: there are you know, people who deeply believe in in

781
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: the American States that I don't think want to see it,

782
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: uh slip away and go go gently into you know,

783
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 1: into tonight. I just say, you know, we're talking about

784
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: you know, we're talking about you know, these these candidates

785
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: in the future. If somebody just says, you know, Obama

786
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: and you know, there's it's it's the hours over right,

787
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,879
Speaker 1: in's fact, the World War two, post World War two

788
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: hours over whatever whatever we're going into, you know, whatever

789
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: we're going going into. Now, who who speaks about freedom

790
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: in a in a way that reminds you at any

791
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: level of how John Kennedy and Ronald Reagan talked about freedom?

792
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: Is there is there anybody who does that? And if not,

793
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: why why do you think that is?

794
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 2: I mean, once again, i mean, I'm not sure what

795
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 2: you know what you mean by speaking about freedom. And

796
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: if you were to listen to Abbie Spenberger, who doesn't

797
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 2: have a huge national profile. I saw her speak at

798
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 2: a backyard event in northern Virginia, and she she speaks,

799
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,720
Speaker 2: she would she would be someone who would speak about duty,

800
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 2: about responsibility, about the need to defend values and the

801
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,959
Speaker 2: need to defend freedom. I don't I don't suppose she's

802
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 2: you know, she she's, she's. She's not making speeches in

803
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 2: front of the Berlin Wall yet, but I would I

804
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 2: would guess that in the Democratic Party and that you

805
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 2: would find a couple of dozen people who would be

806
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 2: beginning to think along those lines. I didn't know whether

807
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,240
Speaker 2: you've heard them all speak nationally yet, but but they're they're.

808
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 1: No, she's, she's, she's, she's excellent. And I agree with you,

809
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: right there are there are you can you can look

810
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 1: at you know, probably I could, you know, you probably

811
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 1: go off one hundred and fifty, one hundred and fifty people.

812
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 1: But they just it hasn't broken through in a way

813
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:42,760
Speaker 1: connected to the moment, And maybe it's just early in

814
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:47,280
Speaker 1: in that I think early I am. I'm very frustrated

815
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: by the lack of a response organized by the Senators

816
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 1: and by the by the members of Congress that that

817
00:53:55,280 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: that highlight their most effective their most funny members, right,

818
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: that I think need to be engaged in the politics.

819
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 1: In the message of this moment to moment, I wanted

820
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: to ask you one one thing that is for sure,

821
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: there needs to be a vast coalition of Americans that

822
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: stands opposed to this. And I feel it right, you

823
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: know when I write that, there's a demand and you

824
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: see some of it on the comments today. There's a

825
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 1: demand that, for example, my positions conform right to their positions, right,

826
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:41,800
Speaker 1: And that's a function of an element of the Democratic Party.

827
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: All right, that's just intolerant. And you see some of

828
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: the comments on here about this all starting with Ronald Reagan. Right,

829
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: there's a fetish about Ronald Reagan, who was elected in

830
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, right, so it's forty forty four years ago.

831
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 1: He left office with a sixty percent approval level after

832
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: winning an election with forty nine states. You're in you're

833
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: in Poland. I don't think Ronald Reagan has a reputation

834
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: for dictatorship in Poland. But there's a lot of Americans

835
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 1: who admire Ronald Reagan who don't like Donald Trump, but

836
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: probably don't like being screened at about Ronald Reagan by

837
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 1: someone in the opposing political party who needs their votes

838
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,359
Speaker 1: uh to win an election. And so in a state

839
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 1: like Texas where a Democratic candidate hasn't won in thirty

840
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 1: years in a statewide election, right, the the cultural condemnation

841
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: of you know, all this stuff right on a on

842
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: a constant basis doesn't help. But I don't think right,

843
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 1: build that, build that type of type of coalition. But

844
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: you know, so we have an audience, you know, on

845
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,399
Speaker 1: this that's probably a left of center audience. What would

846
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: you say about Ronald Reagan and about freedom? You know,

847
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:07,720
Speaker 1: the last speech, you know, I just saw a comment

848
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan was a crappy president after eight years.

849
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 4: You know.

850
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 1: The last thing that Ronald Reagan talked about in his

851
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,280
Speaker 1: farewell address was the importance of immigration to the United

852
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 1: States and that the majesty of the country was that

853
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:22,800
Speaker 1: we were made up of all the peoples of the world,

854
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: that it was our inherent strength. And so like his

855
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 1: message on that subject would be something that you would

856
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: think Democrats would want to embrace, but a lot of

857
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: people don't want to ever write. Show any grace to

858
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:42,479
Speaker 1: anybody who's got that letter of an opposite party next

859
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 1: to their name. Right in our tribal society, and we

860
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: can't get out of that. The country's done. And so

861
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,879
Speaker 1: I wonder on any given day, right like if we're

862
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: if we can, if we can get out of that,

863
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 1: and I just get I get depressed when I read

864
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: the comments. It just shows right to keep warrior, the

865
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: absence of grace, right, really, the ignorance of history, right,

866
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: any appreciation for for who these guys are, and it's

867
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: just really, uh, you know, we got Blue Maga and

868
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: you got Trump Maga, and you know too, two magas

869
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 1: right in in competition like scorpions in a in a bottle.

870
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: You know that that dynamic is a is a very

871
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: is a very very depressing one.

872
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 2: For me. It's a very oppressive dynamic. But I'm not

873
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 2: sure that it reflects the entire country. I think most

874
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 2: people are more nuanced. Social media has has. I mean,

875
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 2: it's literally deliberately designed. It's set up to create polarization.

876
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 2: That's what it does. You know, you get more likes,

877
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: you get more clicks, you get more popularity by having

878
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 2: more extreme views, by by by embodying not a policy

879
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 2: debate but an identity. You know that, you know what

880
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 2: we now have is politics. It's not real about political

881
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 2: It's not about how our healthcare system should be structured,

882
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 2: you know, or what should we really do about immigrants.

883
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 2: It's about having these identity groups that people click and

884
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 2: feel part of. So, you know, a part of the

885
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 2: solution is finding people who can rise above that or

886
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,919
Speaker 2: move beyond that. And as I say, I've now said,

887
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 2: I think four times in the last forty minutes, I

888
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 2: think there are people who are trying. I do take

889
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 2: your point about coalitions. I mean, one of the in

890
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 2: the in the many conversations that I've had with people

891
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 2: who have fought dictatorships in other countries, almost all of

892
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 2: them talk about coalitions, and not just left right coalitions,

893
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 2: but thinking in terms of which parts of society are

894
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 2: the ones who need to be moved. How do you

895
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 2: what's the best way to This doesn't apply so much

896
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 2: to unite it. What's the best way to talk to

897
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 2: the police or the military. How do you put together

898
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 2: different audiences with different interest around a set of similar themes.

899
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 2: And as I said, everybody who's ever been a successful

900
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 2: opponent of a dictatorship has thought that way. Because what

901
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 2: you need to do, as you rightly say, is move

902
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 2: beyond just being really angry, even though anger is important motivation,

903
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 2: and begin to think more broadly, how do we bring

904
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 2: people in, how do we how do we how do

905
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 2: we build a movement? How do we how do we

906
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 2: work together? I mean my instinct, and this I think

907
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 2: it's reflected by polling, is that the majority of Americans

908
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 2: are already uncomfortable with Trump. You know, they're already uncomfortable

909
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 2: with even you know, with with the idea of an

910
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 2: ice police force it's larger than the Marines. They didn't

911
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 2: like tariffs, you know, they didn't like this this foreign

912
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 2: policy that moves back and forth and has no strategy,

913
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: and you know, and so I don't think I don't

914
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 2: think it's unthinkable that you could that people could unite

915
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 2: around common value, use and even in a positive vision

916
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 2: for what the country should be, without arguing about whether

917
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan was good or bad forty years ago.

918
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it's great. I think it's crazy.

919
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 2: I think it's possible. And yeah, you're right here here

920
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 2: in Poland Ronald Reagan is a hero. And there's actually

921
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 2: a statue of him not that far from from where

922
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 2: I'm sitting.

923
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 1: There's a there's a spot in poll and this is

924
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 1: the last thing I want to I want to ask you.

925
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: But there's a there's a moment coming, and I think

926
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 1: it's going to come before this midterm election where Pope

927
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: Leo makes his inaugural visit to the United States. And

928
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 1: you know, I can't I can't help but think that

929
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: the College of Cardinals in their elevation of him, uh,

930
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,959
Speaker 1: you know, there's some synchronicity with the elevation of kyl

931
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: Willtila and to Pope John Paul the second. And when

932
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: Pope John Paul comes to Warsaw, a million polls in

933
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: the in the square and that sign the cross there

934
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: and John Poul says to the to the assembled crowd

935
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: in a in a in a quote that as much

936
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: as any help bring down the Berlin Wall, which is,

937
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 1: do not be afraid, and not be afraid. And fear

938
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: is such a element in all of this purposeful right.

939
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: Never an hour lifetimes have we seen a government purposefully

940
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 1: invoke fear, spread fear, use anxiety, try to try to

941
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 1: terrify people, to augment its power, the illusions of its

942
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 1: of its power. I just wanted to let you close

943
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 1: out today and thank you so much for joining me

944
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: for the conversation, but just to talk about fear right

945
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 1: as a as a tool and an element, and the

946
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: recipes to fight back against fear right. How do you

947
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: how do you stand up right against against fear.

948
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 2: I've known so many people who have done really brave things,

949
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 2: who have led movements or risked jail or gone to

950
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 2: jail in countries like Russia or Venezuela or China, you know,

951
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 2: and and almost all of them have the same thing

952
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 2: in common. I mean they have they have some ability

953
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 2: to believe that in a some value that's greater than themselves.

954
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 2: You know, what happens to me doesn't matter what happened.

955
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 2: What matters is what happens to the country, what happens

956
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 2: to my society. I mean almost all of them are

957
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 2: ultimately motivated. I mean some of them actually, as as

958
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 2: in Poland in nineteen seventy nine. Some of them are

959
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 2: religiously motivated, but not not necessarily. I mean, some are

960
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 2: motivated by their their belief and faith and hope for

961
01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 2: their country and their and their society. And so you know,

962
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 2: I would just urge people, you know, to not just

963
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:12,240
Speaker 2: don't be afraid, but remember how piddling and silly. The

964
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 2: things that are being used to make you afraid are

965
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 2: You're being made afraid with rhetoric and games and junk

966
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 2: you read online. You know, it's important to rise above

967
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 2: it and remember what what's more important, you know, an

968
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 2: insult that someone wrote to me, or a threat that

969
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 2: someone said to me, or something that happened to be

970
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 2: at my office or it was more important is the

971
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 2: way my society is functions, and the way my children

972
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 2: are going to live, and what kind of country will be.

973
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 2: So keep your keep your mind on on bigger things,

974
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 2: and then you will be afraid.

975
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 1: Just before I sign off, one of the things that

976
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 1: Anne has talked about today is those rising voices. And

977
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: just for the three thousand people that are on with us,

978
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: Abigail Spamberg are running for governor of Virginia, going to

979
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 1: be the governor of Virginia. Mikey Sheryl, Navy helicopter pilot,

980
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: going to be the governor of New Jersey, Jocelyn Benson

981
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 1: another rising star in Michigan, Elise slock In a important voice,

982
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 1: Jason Crowe in Colorado, Jamie Raskin, of course, indefatigable, Chris Murphy,

983
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 1: the Fighting Democrats Jake Auchincloss. There are many, many more.

984
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 1: There are going to be a lot of candidates who

985
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 1: are getting into these races. And then there are the

986
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 1: celebrity candidates, and they come always from the wings of

987
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 1: the party, very rarely from the people that could appeal

988
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 1: to the nation right, could appeal to a majority. And

989
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 1: so what we could do today is appeal to you

990
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: to inform yourselves about who those people are. Jake Awkin

991
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 1: class A substack is called easy. No, sorry, it's called simple,

992
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 1: not easy. Please follow an Applebaum at The Atlantic on substack.

993
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 1: One of the foremost academic thinkers, writers and advocates for

994
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: freedom in the world, and important voice and one who

995
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 1: will be over the decade ahead as this fight, and

996
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:33,520
Speaker 1: it is a fight rages on. And one of the

997
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 1: things that is always true against any aggressive force, against

998
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 1: any fascistic force, the aggressor always has that first move

999
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 1: or advantage. And it's the side that supports freedom, because

1000
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 1: it is involved in enjoying their freedoms, is usually slow

1001
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: to rise in defense of it. The rise in defense

1002
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 1: of it we have to give. In this two hundred

1003
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 1: and fiftieth anniversary year the birth of the United States,

1004
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 1: pocal event in the history of the world, and so

1005
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: we'll leave it there today. Thank you so much. Keep

1006
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 1: the faith, believe in your country, and understand things will

1007
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 1: get worse, but then they will get better. And that's

1008
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 1: the way it has always been. We are in a test,

1009
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 1: and we have to meet the test. I'm Steve Schmidt.

1010
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 1: This is the warning. I invite you to join this community,

1011
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 1: where I promise to be honest, blunt and direct about

1012
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 1: what is happening in this country. America is in crisis.

1013
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:40,480
Speaker 1: Follow and subscribe to this channel and on substack. Thank you.