1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily, and this is and you're listening 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: to stuff Mom never told you. Today, we're tackling a 3 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: subject that is super close to my heart. As someone 4 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: who operates in the personal and professional development space, I 5 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: so often see career advice for women cross the line 6 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: into policing women's speech, which there's a fine line there, right, 7 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: because I think we're going to unpack some of the 8 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: realities today about research that does show that when women 9 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: modulate their approach or conform to a more traditionally masculine 10 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: I should say, a form of leadership, there are professional 11 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: benefits to doing so in some cases, which is why 12 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: this is complicated. But the way we present that information, 13 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: especially as career development folks, is really important in my opinion, um, 14 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: because so often women are told don't do this, don't 15 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: do that, as though it's our fault. And I think 16 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: I I agree with you, and I think that I 17 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: come from this as someone who used to try to 18 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: make a living by going on TV. Like I a 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: long time, I was going on TV shows to talk 20 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: about politics and activism, and as a woman on TV, 21 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: people will have a lot of things to say about 22 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: all opinions, you know, really everything, the way I look 23 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: my hair. Once my brastrap was showing, and someone was 24 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: really had a lot to say about that, but specifically 25 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 1: around voice and you know how you're how you're speaking, Yeah, exactly. 26 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: And and what's fascinating is because there's so much research 27 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: behind this and information around it, a lot of people 28 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: feel like it's there job to give women lots of 29 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: feedback on their vocal tone or if they have vocal fry. 30 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: I'm actually just coming off of like a four day 31 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: speaking crazy tour, and I've been doing so much speaking 32 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: that my voice is sometimes lost. Right would you say 33 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: it's a little fried, I'd say it's fried. Yeah, So 34 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: this is a meta episode. Do not write in and 35 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: tell me you don't like the sound of my voice today, 36 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: okay or brillianny day, we don't care. We don't listen 37 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: to the words that are coming out of my mouth. Instead, 38 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: And that was something I realized as a student. Sometimes 39 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: the way I was speaking, I could almost see my 40 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: professor's glazing over because they're paying closer attention to how 41 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: I was speaking as a young college student who might 42 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: have sounded a little more you know, college e um. 43 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: Instead of listening to the words that I was saying, 44 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: and I almost part of me wonders, I mean, that's 45 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: certainly something that I've experienced, and part of me wonders 46 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: if it's also like a trouble that people have around 47 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: like youth, where it's like your voice sounds like someone young, 48 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: and it's like when you're in college, you were young 49 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: and well also maybe before life has chipped away at 50 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: your your your like unbridled youth was still you hadn't 51 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: been told that you sound like a teeny bopper twenty 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: was in times yet, so you hadn't internalized all that 53 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: awful feedback. Yeah, I don't think getting more jaded is 54 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: is like a good thing we should be applauding or 55 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: necessarily attaching like positive connotations to right. So let's let's 56 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: unpack this a little bit by going over and I'm 57 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: sure listeners views will sound relatively familiar to you. Let's 58 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: go over some of the most commonly delivered advice for women, 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: specifically around how to adjust your speech in a professional setting, 60 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: and just break down the bs behind some of this advice. Okay, 61 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: can we do that. Let's do it. So first I 62 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: want to talk about sorry, I'm so sorry, but you know, 63 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: I think that there is a very bad connotation when 64 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: it comes to how women use the word sorry. There's 65 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: this perception, which is backed by research that women say 66 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: the words sorry more than men. First of all, that 67 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: is true, but second of all, that does not mean 68 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: that that is a bad thing per se. Something that 69 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: I found really interesting in the research around gender and 70 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: apologizing is that it is true that women say sorry more, 71 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: but maybe it's not because of the reasons that you 72 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: might think. And so actually men genuinely feel like they 73 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: have less to apologize for. Therefore they feel like they're 74 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: apologizing like an appropriate amount. Women perceive things differently, and 75 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: so they perceive that they have more to genuinely apologize for. 76 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: So really it's like, the point is that it's not 77 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: that women say sorry too much, is that men don't 78 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: feel sorry enough, right, which is if you think about 79 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: it's a totally different framework that is brought to the 80 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: same exact conversation, the same exact data, And this is 81 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: just goes to show how important public narrative and the 82 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: story frame that we bring to this career advice for 83 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: women really really matters. We can either tell ourselves a 84 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: story that says traditional leadership has looked domineering, has looked 85 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: hyper masculine, has looked unapologetic for so many years that 86 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: apologizing doesn't fit that, you know, very strict definition of 87 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: what it looks like to be a leader. And therefore 88 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: women should change, or we can say, hey, why are 89 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: men so bad at apologizing? Why has leadership traditionally been 90 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: this way? Maybe there's a better way. And at el Magazine, 91 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: an article that really reignited this conversation in my in 92 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: my mind and my heart and mind from Sadie Doyle 93 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: back in April April thirteen of this year is titled 94 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: women don't need to apologize less, men need to learn 95 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: how to apologize. And I think it's so funny because 96 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: you always hear about the non apology like oh, I'm 97 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,239 Speaker 1: sorry you were offended, or you know, noogy, no apology, 98 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: or the like sorry not sorry. Like I feel like 99 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: I see that from Sean Spicer in the White House. 100 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: I mean, what spicy, as I sometimes call it, is 101 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: the master of the like non apologic apology. Yeah, so 102 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: he was. He came under fire for comparing Assad to 103 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: Hitler the agulary to say he wasn't so bad after all. Yeah, 104 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: I think his line was like a Hitler never, he 105 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: wasn't the exactly what it is. Yeah, I mean, regardless, 106 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: let's not make comparisons to make light of the of 107 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: the Holocaust. That's pretty worthy of an apology, don't you 108 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: real apology, legitimate, an actual I'm sorry. And what happened 109 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: was the White House sent out a clarification, uh, without 110 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: saying sorry. He basically said, in no way was I 111 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: trying to lessen the horrendous nature of the Holocaust. I 112 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: was trying to draw a contrast. So he said, it's 113 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: not it's not me, it's you. Let me help you 114 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: understand what I said. He didn't say sorry, so it's 115 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: even clarification, it's not an apology. And then just days later, 116 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: United Airlines drags a passenger by force on the plane. 117 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: He's bleeding on his way out the door. Everyone's freaking 118 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:05,119 Speaker 1: out on this plane, rightly so, and the CEO does not, Well, 119 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: here's the thing, so he says he did come out saying, 120 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: this is an setting event to all of us here 121 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: at United, I apologize for having to reaccommodate these customers here. 122 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: Really like wacky understanding of what reaccommodating if I feel 123 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: like if I'm being dragged, I'm not being I wouldn't 124 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: use the word reaccommodate. I know one of my family members, 125 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: I think, posted something on Facebook that said United Airlines 126 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: will re accommodate the hell out of you. And it's like, 127 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: it's like total ministry of double speak, nightmare messaging. So 128 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: all of us to go back to sorry is to 129 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: call into question this kind of advice when levied against 130 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: women and saying, oh, women conform to this strict standard. 131 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: And then beyond that, if we actually unpack the data 132 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: on sorry and women's use of the word, there's a 133 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: lot of kind of wonkiness and and and less than 134 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: perfect research in terms of their methodology. Is that actually 135 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: a past episode really unpacked women and sorry that Christian 136 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: Caroline worked through in great detail, calling into question the 137 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: research methodologies in those studies, which is troubling. But beyond that, 138 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: what researchers are finding over and over again is that 139 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: women use the word sorry not just to apologize, but 140 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: to empathize totally. And empathy is a great leadership quality. 141 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: It's not something that we should be you know, lecturing 142 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: really anybody out of using I think that that's my 143 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: overall issue with a lot of this well meaning, benevolent um. 144 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: But what the issue that I have with a lot 145 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: of that is that it comes from a place where 146 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: I think it's this idea that men in professional situations 147 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: have adopted all of these maybe not so good qualities 148 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: and that and that women should adopt those same qualities 149 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: so exactly because this is what men do. And I 150 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: always pushed back against this notion that advice to women 151 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: to be more like men to get ahead in the 152 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: workplace is necessarily good advice to bring. And this actually 153 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: happened to me on one of my first campaigns that 154 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: I was ever working on, one of the senior male 155 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: consultants who actually turned out to be a bit of 156 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: a creep to be quite honest, and was uh like 157 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: a really gross sexist person too in many ways. But 158 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: one of the kind pieces of advice he gave me 159 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: early on in these few weeks that I spent on 160 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 1: this campaign was never say, sorry, Emily, you're admitting just 161 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: faults that you don't need to admit to. And I 162 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: was like, thanks, great advice, dude, And then it's your 163 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: leadership style is not my style, you know, Like, yeah, 164 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: of course noted creeping you want that you need want 165 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: his advice? Yeah, it was that. It was the beginning 166 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: of a lot of grossness from him. But um, yeah, 167 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: I think here's the thing I am in the professional 168 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: development space. I just came off of a bosstop camp 169 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: weekend when I was talking to women about how to 170 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: be more are assertive communicators. So the hypocrisy here is real, 171 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: and I just want to check that by saying what 172 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: I have learned over the years as someone who goes 173 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: over the research and instructs women who are looking to 174 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: advance how to do zonn are looking to negotiate how 175 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: to do so, is to start those conversations off by saying, listen, 176 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: there is nothing wrong with how you speak right now right. 177 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: You don't have to adapt or internalize I'm doing all 178 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: these things wrong, because then you're just gonna be thinking 179 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: about the time. It's not that binary. It's not right 180 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: and wrong. What it is is if you want to 181 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: manipulate others perceptions of you, or which if you want 182 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: to conform to a perception or to a style that 183 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: is more likely to yield positive outcomes for your negotiation, job, interview, presentation, 184 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: or what have you. Here are the tools I want 185 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: all women to have in their toolbox. Here's the card 186 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: I want you to be able to play. And you 187 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: cannot make that conscious choice unless you're aware of your 188 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: own unconscious speech habits and your and your own way 189 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: of speaking and how it's perceived by others. And then 190 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: take that control, take that power, and make that choice 191 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: for yourself to adjust accordingly, which is very different than 192 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: how a lot of advice comes out sounding. I think, yeah, 193 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I love how you put that sort of 194 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: having a tool in your toolbox. It's like you don't 195 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: necessarily need like every tool does not fit every work, 196 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: every built carpenter. But you get what I'm saying. When 197 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: you're in trouble and in the principle's office, that's not 198 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: the time to be sounding like the most assertive like 199 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: and I think the advice is So what kind of 200 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: complicates everything differently is things like age, race As a 201 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: black woman oftentimes, you know, I think that black women 202 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: in professional settings are are taught and trained to be 203 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: very aware of like the optics of how they present themselves, 204 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: the optics of how they carry themselves. And I think 205 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: that if you were to tell a black woman like 206 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: be very assort of like don't say sorry, you know, 207 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,599 Speaker 1: make sure that you are coming off as confident, in 208 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: as shure of yourself and blah blah blah. That advice 209 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: could actually back by backfire in a really spectacular way. 210 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: And I think that we offer particularly women, this like 211 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: one size fits all kind of advice around how they 212 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: need to be living their lives and it just doesn't 213 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: always work. And so thinking about it as a tool 214 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: kit where it's like, yeah, if you need to, you know, 215 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: if you were if if there was a situation where 216 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: saying sorry was going to be helpful or signify that 217 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: you were empathizing with someone's situation, you know, I'm so 218 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: sorry to hear that you're going through that exactly. How 219 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: can we figure it out together? Like that is not 220 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: an apology, and white women don't have right, we have 221 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: the privilege of not having to contend with the angry 222 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: black woman trope and that black female defensily and walk 223 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: into every day. It's everywhere, and so you know, I 224 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: think that it's always important to remember that these things 225 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: are sort of can be sort of a mind field, 226 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: and you know, just saying like don't say sorry, it's 227 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: not going to be enough to cut it exactly, and 228 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: the advice certainly doesn't stop it's sorry either. There are 229 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: so many other words that women have taught to be, like, oh, 230 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: you're not a good professional, badass woman, you're not a 231 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: boss lady if you say sorry. Or my latest and 232 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: greatest one that I keep coming across is just I 233 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: just want to ask you a quick question or I 234 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: just want to interrupt here to talk this through. Now 235 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 1: a days an app made a lot of press write 236 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: a Gmail or Google Chrome app that helped identify when 237 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: you were typing the word just in an email and 238 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 1: how to eradicate it. The underlying assumption being when women 239 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: say just they're unconsciously qualifying their asks or their statements 240 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: or whatever it is that they're giving us their professional opinion. Yeah, 241 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: in doing research for this episode, we didn't find any 242 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: empairtical evidence around the word justin. And why are we 243 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: making you know, hard and fast rules and apps and 244 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: you know, telling people to take this word out of 245 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: their emails if women especially, why are you telling women this? 246 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: If this advice is like based on really nothing, it 247 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: just seems like something that's kind of ruthy, Like right, 248 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: it must meet. When people will see just in an email, 249 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: they automatically assume, like all value her contributions. And yeah, 250 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: and once again, it's on women to contort. It's on 251 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: women to accommodate other people's perceptions of them. Instead of 252 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: actually being heard for what we have to say, people 253 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: are focused on the style with which we're saying it. 254 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: And I hate that so much, because again, why aren't 255 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: we instead of creating apps? And I don't want to 256 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: knock the people who made this app, but instead of 257 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: making apps that take just out of our emails, why 258 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: don't we figure out ways of making people who read 259 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: those emails not come up with a lot of kinds 260 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: of assumptions about what we're what we're saying. Well, it's funny, 261 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: and this is straight out of a Cosmopologian article called 262 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: stop telling women to apologize for apologizing, which is meta 263 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: in so many ways but also applies to this just situation. 264 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: She says, telling women to treat certain words like they 265 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: they're typos isn't a way of empowering women. It's a 266 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: way of telling them to fix a problem that actually 267 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: belongs to listeners who view women as weaker and less confident. 268 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: I think That's a lot of the way that I 269 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: feel about this is really rooted in that idea that, like, 270 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: I don't actually think we should be telling women any 271 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: of this, right, Like I think that we should just 272 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: let women figure this out. Like I think if you're 273 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: a woman who has figured out that you know, saying 274 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: jost or not saying Josh, saying sorry you're not saying 275 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: sorry has worked or not worked for you, I think 276 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: that we should stop, you know, over lecturing and over 277 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: moralizing about women and their speeches, wort of how it's 278 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: impacted them in their in their professionals, because there's just 279 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: no evidence. There's just behind there's just no evidence. Okay, 280 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: we are worked up about this topic, obviously, and there 281 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: are so much more where this came from. But let's 282 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: let's take a quick breather, be and let's calm Down's 283 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: calm down, and we'll be right back after this. All right, 284 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: we're back. Are you ready for this? Be? Let's do 285 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: it here. At the end of the day, I think 286 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: it comes down to king the unconscious conscious because having 287 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: unconscious unintentional vocal ticks, which we all do. We all 288 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: have our buzzwords, we all have our vocal habits of 289 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: choice that maybe often manifest when we're feeling nervous or 290 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: when we're feeling under the gun, like an interview or 291 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: recording a podcast. Say you ever want to become very 292 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: very clear about your verbal ticks, start a podcast. Yeah, 293 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: that's a great way to do it, and and open 294 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: your email after starting said podcast. Right, But if we 295 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: make those unconscious ticks and habits conscious, if we ask 296 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: someone for feedback who actually has our best intentions at heart, 297 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: if we maybe record and review our own speaking in 298 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: advance of a phone interview or a you know, a 299 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: job interview or a big presentation that we want to 300 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: really sound the way we want to sound, that consciousness 301 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: raising really helps you identify the ad adaptations you want 302 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: to make in front of listening to all this advice 303 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: pouring from the peanut gallery from people who have never 304 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: maybe never heard you speak, don't know your situation, and 305 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: maybe they're maybe their idea that doesn't actually fit your situation. 306 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: The speech police, the speech belief it is um you 307 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: mentioned we we're talking earlier about starting a podcast and 308 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: how it impacts the way that you think about your speech, 309 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: and I just had to shout out the producers of 310 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: the podcast Invisible. They basically got so many people writing 311 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: in about their female hosts voice, they set up an 312 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: auto responder, so if you emailed them and they they're 313 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: filtered things like, oh, you're sending an email complaining about 314 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: the female you know podcast hosts voice, you get Hello, 315 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: you've written into voice your dislike of our female reporters voices. 316 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: You're not alone. We have sign up a filter that 317 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: automatically sends these emails into a bolder labeled zero priority. 318 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: We'll review this folder and consider the complaints within. Well 319 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: never Amazingly, we don't even have a folder for complaints 320 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: about male voices on our show because we've never gotten one. 321 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: Isn't that strange? We think so. Anyway, I hope you 322 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: can continue to enjoy our free podcasts somehow, and if 323 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: you can't, there are plenty of shows that don't feature 324 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: any women's voices at all. I love it is so brilliant, great, 325 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: and really, let's talk about women's vocal sounds too, because 326 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: that's what's become such a big thing on radio and 327 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: podcast hosts. Especially. That email is so valid, Maybe we 328 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: should come up with one of our own b bt 329 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: BT dubs right, I almost said bts there, I gotta 330 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: get my acronyms together. Um. But it was This American 331 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: Life that had a great episode that really unpacked all 332 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: the ways in which women on the radio generate complaints 333 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: from listeners who have problems with things like vocal fry 334 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: f which is that low, creaky vibration that produces a 335 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: fluttering in the vocal chords that you might know from 336 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: the Kardashians. I had an article that said that Britney 337 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: Spears was an early adopter of vocal fry, but right 338 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: got that like super creaky fry fing going that was 339 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:20,719 Speaker 1: totally revolutionary. I never heard. Um. Some people say that 340 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: young women who are known for creating your sort of 341 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: pioneering vocal fry, or at least people pick up on 342 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: women young women's vocal fry more so than young men's 343 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: um could be linguistic innovators. That's what Paige Sally on 344 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: CBS Sunday Morning included in one of her segments on 345 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: vocal fry. Maybe they're linguistic innovators, or maybe this is 346 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: an unconscious habit. Either way, people writ large are very 347 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: annoyed by vocal fry, especially when exhibited by women, and 348 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: when surveyed, the population that found vocal fry most grating 349 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: and annoying actually was women above the age of I 350 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: think it was either fo to your fifty. Oh that's 351 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: so fast. That's not at all where I thought you 352 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: were going with us, not at all. I mean, so 353 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: it's just like everybody judges young women. Is the earlier 354 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:13,239 Speaker 1: story exactly. I think what's interesting is that one, you know, 355 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: man use vocal fright too. Nobody art Noam Chomsky. No 356 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: one thinks that Noam Chomsky is stupid because he uses 357 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: vocal fright, but he uses it all the time. And 358 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: I'm sure that no one is writing articles that are like, hey, 359 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: Noam Chomsky, and what are you talking about? That you 360 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: sound dumb like women. I genuinely believe that this comes 361 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: from a place of discomfort around women, particularly young women, 362 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,959 Speaker 1: in the public eyes. Having at having voice is to something. 363 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: And the New York Magazine and The Cut put it 364 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: brilliantly with an article about female voice anxiety, which is 365 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: really a better way to diagnose this problem. By the way, 366 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: it's the audience is ish. It's not the artist or 367 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: the vocalist ish. But she says here for every wrong 368 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: voiced woman. The nominal problem is excess the voices to 369 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: something too loud to nasal, breathy, honking, squeaky, matron le, whispered. 370 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: It reveals too much of some identity. It overflows its bounds. 371 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: The excess it in turn points to what's lacking softness, power, humor, intellect, sexiness, seriousness, coolness, warmth. 372 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: The fact that these adjectives come in relatively inverse pairs 373 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: isn't a coincidence. We have some measure of control over 374 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 1: the way we sound, but for women and minorities, the 375 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: margin of error can be vanishing lye thin. It's almost 376 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: impossible to get it quote right. So basically we can't win, y'all. 377 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: No matter, You're always going to be too much for somebody. 378 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: And I think that I in that quote. I see 379 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: so I hear so much of my own experience. So 380 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: something I hate to admit is that I was a 381 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: smoker for a long time, and people always and I 382 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: picked it up kind of late, like most people that 383 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: I knew were smoking kind of earlier, and I didn't 384 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: start until later. And the reason why I heard smoking, 385 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: which looking back is so ridiculous, is that I thought 386 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: I had this mousey, high pitched young woman a young 387 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: woman's voice, and I badly wanted to have a voice 388 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: like Kathleen Turner as Assaultery, a little raspy, and so 389 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: I thought like, oh, if I start smoking, I'll have 390 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: a raspier voice. And come to find out, you know, 391 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,479 Speaker 1: there's all kinds of vocal exercise and stuffing you can do. 392 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: You don't have to pick up a very unhealthy habit 393 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: and in order to change some kind of voice back. Yeah, well, 394 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: isn't it funny that it all goes back to being cooler. 395 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: I do think it's some coolness. I just wanted to 396 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: be cool, Like, we do something about that, the same 397 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: reason I bought my first leather jacket. I was very 398 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: interesting smoking because it doesn't hurt like harmy, although the 399 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: vegan and me thinks it harms. So funny, but we 400 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: can talk about We'll talk about that's another episode. We 401 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: should do something on that anyway, So there's um. I 402 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: think the moral of the story here is you were 403 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: trying to adapt to your vocal sound already, perhaps unconsciously 404 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,160 Speaker 1: or consciously, to combat the verbal pad on the ad 405 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: that young women professional sketch totally so many women in 406 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: the office, and I remember this. You're giving your valuable 407 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: insights and opinions that they're paying you for, and they think, oh, 408 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: that's cute. You're so cute. When you take over a meeting, 409 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: it's almost like you think you have real say here, 410 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: and you want to overcompensate for that youth. I definitely 411 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 1: found myself over compensating for my youth yea, And I 412 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: think I mean and again, it's just another way that 413 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: women are taught to that all of the issues, like 414 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: we just internalize them and societies do. It's not your 415 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: coworkers duty to respect you as an employee and respect 416 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: your contributions. It's your you've internalized it. It's your duty 417 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: to something like level these things that they're feeling, whether 418 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: they're around your gender or your youth. And it's tricky 419 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: because there's no perfect frame around that. In the professional 420 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: development space, like the whole underlying assumption behind professional development 421 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: is like self improvement, like you can adapt. But I 422 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: think what's really important, as a humongous asterix or one 423 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 1: might even call it a qualifier, that I think is 424 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: a very good thing is to say, before we give 425 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 1: you this advice for how to change yourself and how 426 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: you present to others. Remember that how you present and 427 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: how you speak and how you sound and how you 428 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: look is great and it's perfect in every way what 429 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: you're really doing, And it doesn't sound very nice, but 430 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: it is about manipulating others perceptions that what is your 431 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: goal and who is your audience and how can you 432 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: adapt to make the most of that. But don't feel 433 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: like every time you say sorry, you're just you have 434 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: to apologize for it. And I think that you really 435 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: hit the nail on the head, and that so much 436 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: of life, so much of what you do and how 437 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: you interact, is about kind of subtly manipulating others to 438 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: get what we want. And it's perception, yeah, a better 439 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: way to put it, but not really whatever. But I 440 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: don't feel any shame or g on that too. It's like, 441 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: of course you're going to talk to different people differently. Really, 442 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,959 Speaker 1: the term for that comes out of UM minority cultures 443 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: around code switching. I was just going to bring that up, 444 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: and so I think, you know, I remember, you know, 445 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: my so my career started. My first real job was 446 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: teaching at Howard University here in d C. Shoutout go Bisons. 447 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: But like when I taught there, I was around built 448 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: people of color, you know, nine percent. And then when 449 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: I left Howard, that was the first time that I 450 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: had to be like, oh, well, you know do I 451 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: Like I had never really had to think about that before, 452 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: thinking about, you know, if I use a slang term 453 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: or what are the white people that I work with 454 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: gonna be like lit? What does that mean? Right? I 455 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: had no sense of that, and I really it was 456 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: through and I'm working and this sort of experiencing that 457 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: that I realized, you know, when to do it when 458 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: not that like, if I did it in some situations, 459 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: it would it would you know, people would be this way. 460 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: If I did it in other situations, they would reacted 461 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: that way and really sort of internally calibrating based on that. 462 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: And so it was such a personal situation that I 463 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: don't think an outside person could have come in and 464 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: been like, here's the one size fits all around, you know, 465 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: using black slang at work whatever, like it just would 466 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: not have worked. And I think that experience resonates with 467 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: so many people who have multi cultural, especially multi linguistic 468 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: cultures that they exist in. Right, So my mother, we 469 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: would all be so embarrassed. My mom was born and 470 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: raised in Bocata, Colombia and Barranqia, Colombia, like South America. 471 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 1: We go to Chile's in suburban Connecticut where we're from, 472 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: right where I was born and raised, and we're out 473 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: with our giant, six person family, and my mom goes, Okay, 474 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: what are you all having? It comes to her right 475 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: the waitress is waiting to take her order, then goes, 476 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: I'll have to inanda. I want to have the chili 477 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: con or whatever. Like she she goes full on Spanish, 478 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: speaking as one, because those are Spanish words, and you 479 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: don't need to put on your gringa accent for fake 480 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: CIEs to make the grana taking your order feel more comfortable. 481 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: So there's a part of me that has become much 482 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: more comfortable of actually sounding like a Latina when I'm 483 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,719 Speaker 1: speaking Spanish, even though I present completely white with my 484 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: latinum blonde hair. And so seeing my mom's sort of 485 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: model that behavior and then the resulting embarrassment of her 486 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: teenage children, so we got y'all were embarrassed on her 487 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: behalf like yeah, yeah, that's interesting. It's her culture, right, 488 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: and like yeah, like her speaking in the you know, 489 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: in the an accent of her own culture should not 490 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: be embarrassing, but that we're so taught that we should be, 491 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: you know, focused on how we're presenting in this way 492 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: at all times. Is manipulate yourself. We've been We've just 493 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: been taught to do that. We've been taught to adapt 494 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: for our audiences comfort. Sometimes you might want to do that, 495 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: like when you're asking for a raise, you want your 496 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: boss to be super comfortable giving you a raise. But 497 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: sometimes you're just the chili is trying to get an emporaduct. 498 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 1: You just live and let's let's let a live, let 499 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: a Latin live, Okay. But and so it becomes like 500 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 1: the unsolicited career advice is what really grinds my gears. Okay, 501 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: it's the un elicited somehow people writ large but I would, 502 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: I mean my experience, it's more often than a man, 503 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: I feel like it's not only okay, but it's a 504 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: nice thing to do to give unsolicited feedback on how 505 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: you look or how you sound. And what is that awful? 506 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: And like I said, I mean, as someone who spent 507 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: a very small time of my career trying to be 508 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: someone on TV, it was all I heard. So I 509 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 1: don't think I ever got any kind of unsolicited feedback 510 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: about my looks, my hair, my voice, whatever from a woman. 511 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: It was always from dudes, and it was always I mean, 512 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I just it's when it when it comes 513 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: from when I'm not asking for, you know, feedback, don't 514 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: give it, right, Like, that's my number one thing I 515 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: think to think about for our audience, right, Like you 516 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: might have heard some great podcast about how women can 517 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: adapt their style to be more effective at work or elsewhere. Remember, 518 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: and this was hard for me as someone who's very 519 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: vote gool with my opinion, remember to ask, say can 520 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: I give you some feedback on that? Just at least 521 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: give them the opportunity to say no, or hey, I've 522 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: got I was taking notes while you're up there speaking. 523 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: If you're interested, I'd be happy to share with you 524 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: a couple of things that I've been reading lately and 525 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: I think might help. I think that's key, right, because 526 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: you don't want to come off like someone that's just 527 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: butting in. Because my number one thing is like, who 528 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: asked you? Right, That's always what I'm thinking when I 529 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: get unsolicited advice. So you always want to make sure 530 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: that you're getting consent before you start giving folks all 531 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: kinds of feedback. And we have more solutions like that 532 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: about how we can navigate this tricky south after this break. 533 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: So we were just getting pretty worked up about some 534 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: of the annoying ways that people can police women's speech. 535 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,479 Speaker 1: But Emily, what are some things that we can do 536 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: to deal with this? I think what you said before 537 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: the break about just checking yourself is a really important 538 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: first step before you give unsolicited it and perhaps unwanted feedback. 539 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: Make sure you're asking someone, hey, you know, I have 540 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,959 Speaker 1: some feedback on how to strengthen this part of your 541 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: speech if you're interested. And second of all, for all 542 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: of my fellow career development folks out there and personal 543 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: and professional development coaches, keep in mind that just because 544 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: there's data showing that women you know, should smile while 545 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: negotiating because it yields better results, or should have you know, 546 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: should stay away from vocal fry, which so many of 547 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: us have unconsciously when making a presentation. Just because the 548 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: data is there doesn't mean it's right. Just because it's 549 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: going to yield a better outcome for your career doesn't 550 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: mean that's how you should speak all the dang time. 551 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: Like the way you talk is fine. It's about you 552 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,239 Speaker 1: having the choice as an individual of being aware of 553 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: how you're coming across to people, perhaps with some feedback 554 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,719 Speaker 1: from those you really value and care about and who 555 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: have your best interests at heart, and then you get 556 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: to make the choice when you want to adapt exactly. 557 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: And I just have to underscore you know, there's nothing 558 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: wrong with code switching. There's nothing wrong with you know, 559 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: adapting your speech to fit a scenario. You know, it's 560 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: really up to you. And I think keeping that in mind, 561 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: you know you don't have to be you know, hyper 562 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: hyper concerned about what other people are saying is gonna 563 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: be best for you. It's good to have tools in 564 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: your toolbox and it's gonna help you get ahead. And 565 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: other than that, just like do you And you've got 566 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: to remember that we can't put style over substance. When 567 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: people's style is grading to you, we as listeners need 568 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: to do better at hearing the words that people are 569 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: sharing and not being completely distracted by the style with 570 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,959 Speaker 1: which they're sharing it. I love that it can't be 571 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: style over substance. It cannot be that's that's dehumanizing because 572 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: think about people like one of my idols and Melissa 573 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: Harris Perry, she has a list like she's brilliant, she's talented, 574 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: And I think there was some article where she said, 575 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, people often ask like, you know, why do 576 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: you have a list? And you know, why did you 577 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: matter living? Because I have important things to say and 578 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to say them. That doesn't matter if you 579 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: can't get over the way my voice sounds, it doesn't 580 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: bring the fact that it's important to say. Also, think 581 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: about how many hours of her life she could have 582 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: spent either getting training to adjust the way she spoke 583 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: or studying and like sharing her brilliance with the world 584 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: and like focusing on what she wants to actually do right, Like, 585 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: you as an individual get to make that choice and 586 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: nobody else does. So no one knows your life right. 587 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: You know your life right right, and there's nothing that 588 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: makes you less of who you are when you're adapting 589 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: your style either. So on the flip side, if you 590 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: do want to adapt yourself, if you do want to 591 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: ditch your the list that you were born with, if 592 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: you do want to talk differently with your friends at 593 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: Howard University, Bridgon, then your friends in downtown these Hiras 594 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: office MSNBC. That doesn't make you any less you And 595 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: I think a lot of times people get judged totally. 596 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: We we do what I think, it is not there 597 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: and we're all individuals and you know, but again we're 598 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: learning and growing together, and we need to be treating 599 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: people as these unique individuals that they are, and not 600 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: making assumptions about their you know, abilities based on things 601 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: like they wrote just in an email or whatever. And 602 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: so the other two tidbits of advice and takeaways that 603 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: I hope we can all leave today's conversation with our 604 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: making blanket statements like all women, all women shouldn't say 605 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: just or all women should stop apologizing is bs like 606 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: can we go ahead and say that not all women's 607 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: have vocal frying, not all men don't. Can we just 608 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: stop with the constant generalizations each right? I think so too. 609 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: And if you are like if you are just on 610 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: a tear, if it is your life's mission to police 611 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: people's speech, maybe just policemen as much as you police 612 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: right into about No, I don't think he. I don't 613 00:33:53,680 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: think tvd um he definitely would appreciate knowing that we 614 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: aren't aware of if he's allowed. He was a part 615 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: of my college development, like what is it? Don't think 616 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: of an elephant? And yeah, and from a linguistics perspective, 617 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: I don't think you could be more important either way. 618 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: Good to know that his work outlives him if he's 619 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: not around anymore, or it's bigger than his personal brand 620 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: is because we're not sure if he happens to the 621 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 1: best of us. But then, finally, I think it's upon 622 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: career professionals, especially those those like me who are writing 623 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: a column right for Forbes about how women can advance 624 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: their lives and be more leader be more leaderlike and 625 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: advance their leadership. It's incumbent upon all of us giving 626 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: advice to career professionals. Two. Always be conditional, Always be 627 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: empathic around any advice that has to do with manipulating 628 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: your personal style. There's nothing wrong with how you naturally talk, 629 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with how you present to the world. 630 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: These are about making conscious choices and here's the research 631 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: behind it, and here's why this might be of service 632 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: to you, and take it or leave it. That's the 633 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: approach that I take. I love it, but I'll admit 634 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: like I didn't start that way. I used to think 635 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: this is the right way to do it, and this 636 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: is the wrong way to do it, when it's just 637 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: not that binary. It's not that simple, yeah, I mean, 638 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: and a few things are like a few things are 639 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: that black and white or a few things. I mean, 640 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 1: I just I think that it's always a good idea 641 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: to be pushing back against, you know, one size fits 642 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: all advice. I love talking about BS career advice that 643 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: women get to. I think there is a treasure trove 644 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: of war stories there and stuff Mom never told you. Listeners, 645 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: we want to hear what you got on this right. 646 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: Bridget and I shared a little bit about the ways 647 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: in which we have felt like our speech has been 648 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: pleased in the past, and we had the choice at 649 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: the time. I took that advice and ran with it 650 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: until I realized, hey, a couple of years later, that 651 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: guy was full of it and was a creep. Um. 652 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: I hope he hears this. So it's just like you 653 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: have to remember when you're getting feedback, you have the 654 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: choice to take it or leave it, and you get 655 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: you have the responsibility to yourself. You owe it to 656 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 1: yourself to try to parse through the gender bias that 657 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,879 Speaker 1: all often is imbued in career advice that woman gets. 658 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 1: So what advice have you received that you thought was 659 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: total BS? Or what unsolicited feedback have you ever gotten 660 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,240 Speaker 1: about the way you sound or the way you speak? 661 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: We want to hear from you because I hope that 662 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: Bridget and I aren't alone in this. I'm sure you'll 663 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: have stories. I'm sure you want to hear good, bad, 664 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: and other good career advice, career advice that you knew 665 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: was BS or career advice from people that like you know, 666 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: why is a person giving me advice like you know? 667 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: You want to hear about it? Yeah? What gives you 668 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: the right? And also on the flip side, have you 669 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: made an adjustment to the way that you sound and 670 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: has it changed your life? Have you gone from being 671 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: a chronic person of who uses up speak all the 672 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: time at the end of her sentences maybe she's a 673 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: you know, a West Coaster where that's much more prominent. 674 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,800 Speaker 1: And have you curbed that habit consciously? Have you changed 675 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: your career around because of it? Has that yielded good results? 676 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. I just I just 677 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: did it there. I guess I was asking you a question. 678 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,760 Speaker 1: So I'm speaking question, right, I guess so now? Oh god, 679 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: So I think it's kind of a funny thing to 680 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: talk about in a way that doesn't feel so heavy. 681 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: Oftentimes these conversations are like heavy, here's how you're wrong, 682 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: and really, at the end of the day, it boils 683 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: down to people being uncomfortable with women speaking at all. 684 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: So make your voice heard and get comfortable with it. Society, Yeah, 685 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: deal with it here, I am deal with this. Yeah. So, 686 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: so we want to hear reviews, Send us an email 687 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com, shoot 688 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: us a tweet at mom stuff podcast, or share a 689 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: snap I guess of your voice on Instagram. I don't know, 690 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: get creative there at stuff mom never told you on Instagram. 691 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: We'll talk to you next time. Thanks for tuning in. 692 00:37:53,520 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: We cannot wait to hear your stories soon. S to 693 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: go to poker Me