WEBVTT - Adaptation 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:06.360 Throughout this series, we've covered Doll's monumental literary successes. But 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:09.559 here's the thing. For countless children around the world, their 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.520 first taste of dolls stories came not from turning pages, 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.640 but from watching screens. And all of these films and 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.560 TV shows were created through the work of the screenwriters 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:23.239 and directors who adapted Doll's stories. These adaptations create a 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:26.480 whole new dimension to a storytelling legacy. That's what we're 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:33.480 diving into today for my hard podcasts, Imagine Entertainment and Parallax. 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.040 I'm Marrion Tracy, and this is the secret world of 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:42.720 Roll Doll. To start, let me take you back to 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:46.400 the early in eighteen sixties. We're at a starry Hollywood 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.440 party and a giant, opulent producer's house in the hills, 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:52.280 one of those suffocating parties where everyone's on top of 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:55.000 each other and thick cigarette smoke gives all the faces 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:58.840 a hazy sheen. Roll Doll lurks in the corner, glass 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:02.639 in hand, rattling his ice cubes, keeping himself apart. He's 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.280 studying his surroundings, taking mental notes, a habit he found 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.520 useful both as a spy and a writer. He's watching 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.920 his actress wife, Patricia Neil, float through the room, working 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:15.880 her magic with a kind of effortless charm. It is, 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.760 after all, the rap party for her latest film. She 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:21.440 thinks it turned out well. You may have heard of it. 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:27.320 It's called Breakfast of Tiffany's. Doll is very much his 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:30.440 wife's plus one tonight, which he always hates. He hasn't 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:32.960 enjoyed a Hollywood party since the one Walt Disney through 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:37.200 in his honor decades earlier. Doll can't stand actors, especially 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:39.240 the ones always coming in and out of his house, 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.839 being loud and emotional, disturbing his work, and he really 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:47.000 can't stand the phony unsophisticated producers who continue not to 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.320 see his brilliance. He's still several years away from getting 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:54.560 hired to write James Bond. But then scanning the room, 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.480 he spots something that intrigues him. An incredibly beautiful brunette 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:01.560 delicately perched on the back of the couch. Audrey Hepburn 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:03.840 is in the middle of a story to her captivated 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:08.560 circle of admirers, her giant eyes flashing despite himself, Dahl 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.080 moves toward her, as if helplessly pulled in by a 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:17.120 movie star's gravitational force. He listens transfixed as Hepburn recounts 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:21.800 a story from her youth. She was sixteen, she says, 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.240 living in a small village in the Netherlands, which had 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.760 been invaded by the Nazis. During the occupation, her uncle 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.360 was shot and both of her brothers were forced underground. 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:34.560 All Dutch civilians faced severe food shortages, regardless of whether 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.520 or not they were Jewish. It became especially dire in 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:40.639 late nineteen forty four, when Audrey and many others nearly 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.960 starved to death. She weighed about eighty pounds and suffered 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:49.280 from severe anemia and edema. Then on April sixteenth, nineteen 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.800 forty five, she continues, her town was finally liberated by 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:57.200 Allied forces. The Nazi occupation was over. Audrey could finally 0:02:57.280 --> 0:02:59.560 venture into the streets, the first time in years. She 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.360 had been alloted in public without fear of punishment or attack. 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:06.840 The entire population was just erupting in celebration and embracing 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:09.880 the Canadian and Dutch soldiers who pressed condensed milk and 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:13.959 chocolate bars into their desperate hands. One officer spotting this 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.880 skeletal waif of a girl with the giant brown eyes 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.120 handed Audrey all seven of the chocolate bars he was carrying. 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:22.680 It had been a very long time since Audrey had 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.120 eaten anything sweet. The taste of these chocolate bars was 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.080 the polar opposite of the fear and pain she had 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.400 been forced to live in throughout the war, and so 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:35.440 having barely eaten in weeks, she devoured all seven bars 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.200 in a row, just gobbled them all up, and then 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:46.040 she threw up. Despite that, Audrey tells her spellbatt listeners, 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.440 all these years later, after everything she's been through, all 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.440 the fame and success she's achieved, chocolate, more than anything else, 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.560 represents freedom to her and opportunity. The very smell of 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.880 it feels like an escape from darkness into the life. 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:06.240 Doll is mesmerized, and like I said, he's taking notes. 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.080 It's not too long after hearing Audrey Hepburn tell this 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:12.800 Dale that he begins work on his own story of 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.800 a child for whom chocolate also represents the kind of 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:20.240 freedom and opportunity beyond his wildest dreams. And ironically, even 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:22.400 though it was one of Hollywood's greatest legends who may 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:27.039 have partially inspired his chocolate factory, Doll absolutely despised what 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.080 Hollywood did with that story and so many of the others. 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.120 I reached out to an expert on the subject to 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:35.800 hear more. All Right, hopefully you've got a message that 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:36.960 says you're being recorded. 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:37.960 Okay. 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.400 If you're a long time podcast junkie, you might recognize 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.080 that voice just from that one word. I've been following 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.040 his film and TV criticism for years, and his perspective 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.080 has genuinely changed how I watch things. I'll let him 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:50.960 introduce himself. 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:55.200 I'm David being Cooley. I'm the TV critic for Fresh 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.360 Air with Terry Gross on NPR. I'm also a professor 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:01.919 of Television studies at Rowing univer and I'm a lifelong 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:02.680 TV critic. 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:05.560 I asked David what he thought about the most famous 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:07.839 and most beloved of the Doll adaptations. 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:13.119 Mel Stewart, who directed the original Willy Walko movie, gets 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:17.160 it so right in terms of tone that my kids 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.599 watching it growing up, they're in their forties now, they 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:24.440 still quote from it. There are still so many lines 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.200 that hit them very long in there from the book. 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:29.800 They were also in the Johnny Depp movie directed by 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:33.520 Tim Burton. They landed better in the original. 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.360 I think a movie the doll really didn't like and 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:37.440 sort of disowned. 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:39.080 Oh see, I don't even know that. 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:41.320 Yeah, he wrote the screenplay, Yeah, but I. 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:42.320 Didn't know he disowned it. 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:45.760 What was his dissatisfaction, My guess is a big part 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:47.839 of it was just the shift and focus. You know, 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.520 he wrote Charlie in the Chocolate Factory, and the studio 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:53.080 made Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, and it's just 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:55.560 that was not his intention. I think he had issues 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.080 with Gene Wilder's performance, and he overall had a terrible 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.640 taste in his mouth from Hollywood. The only experience you 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.839 ever liked in Hollywood. The two experiences were with Hitchcock 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.720 and then writing the first James Bond film that he wrote. 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:11.080 Let's pause for a second to dive a little deeper 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.000 into the Chocolate River. Several movie stars have played Willy 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:17.760 Wonka over the decades, including Timothy Shalomy, Johnny Depp, and 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.520 even Neil Patrick Harris in a strange video parody you 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.200 can find online now to mention all the stage actors 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.680 who performed the role on Broadway and in various theater 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.440 productions around the world. But for me, and I think 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:32.240 for most people. The defining portrayal of Doll's most memorable, 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.599 most elusive character is by Gene Wilder in the nineteen 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:36.720 seventy one film. 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:43.719 There's no earthy way of lowing, singing which direction we 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:51.040 are going, There's no knowing where we're rolling or which 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:58.159 way the river's flowing. Is it raining? Is it snowing? 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.120 Is a cane of blowing? 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.320 Not a speck of light is showing, So the danger 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:11.280 must be grown. Are the fires of hell a glowing? 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:18.560 Is the grizzly Reaper mowing? Yes, the danger must be growing, 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:19.960 for the rowers. 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:26.280 Keep on rowing, and they're certainly not showing any signs 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:28.480 that they are flowing. 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.480 Yeah, it's a nutty performance. As I mentioned to David, 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:41.880 Roald Dahl hated it. Doll's friend and biographer Donald Sturrek says, quote, 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.600 I think he felt Wonka was a very British eccentric. 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.720 Gene Wilder was rather too soft and didn't have a 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.960 sufficient edge. His voice is very light, and he's got 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.040 that rather cherubic sweet face. I think Roll felt there 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.680 was something wrong with Wonka's soul in the movie. It 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.760 just wasn't how he imagined the lines being spoken. According 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.760 to Derek, to be fair at it, do all, Geen 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.880 Wilder does take some crazy swings in that movie. If 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:07.800 you've seen it, and since you're still listening to the 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.120 show nine episodes in, I bet you have, you know 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.640 what I'm talking about. Wilder's entire performance is just kind 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.200 of nuts in a really glorious way. Terrifying one second, 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:21.080 bursting into song for no reason, the next sadistic, cruel 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:24.520 and incredibly creepy later on, and then ends as kind 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:26.800 of a teddy bear. It's just all over the place 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:30.040 in a way that feels really interesting and unexpected. The 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.320 director Mel Stewart says about Wilder, quote, he came up 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.120 with the most wonderful moments in the film portraying Wonka's 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.720 half man, half saint, and that's what makes the movie 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.360 so good. In fact, it's such a unique performance that 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.760 there's been a persistent rumor for half a century that 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.640 Geen Wilder improvised the whole thing when he arrived on set, 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.240 And of course that's not true, but it does sort 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.520 of feel that way, and the actor did have a 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.719 lot of input. Here's Wilder from an interview he did 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.160 with filmmaker Stuart Maybe in two thousand. 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.560 And nine, I wouldn't have done the film. And if 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:04.800 they didn't let me come out walking as a cripple 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.679 and then getting my cane stuck into a cobblestone and 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.720 then doing a forward somersault and then bouncing up and 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:16.400 they all applauded. And the director said, well, what do 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.000 you want to do that for? And I said, because 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:23.280 from that point on, no one will know whether I'm 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:27.800 telling the truth or a lyne. And he said, you mean, 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.200 if I say no, you won't do the film. And 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.080 I said, that's right, I won't and I meant it too, 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.319 so they let me do it. 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.280 It's not a surprise that role. Dahl had a problem 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:41.920 with this, As I already mentioned, he wasn't a fan 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.280 of actors in general, and here's an example of an 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:46.920 actor being given a lot of authority to alter a 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.520 role that Dahl created. But I think Doll was always 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:52.640 going to have a problem with whoever played Willie Wonka. 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:57.000 In his book, Wonka is very underwritten purposefully. He's an 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.680 enigma like his author, which offers the reader al mystery. 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.520 But when you put that same character on film and 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.200 put a human face and voice behind him, either the 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:08.640 mystery fades, or the actor comes up with such a 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:14.920 strange interpretation that a whole new mystery is born. When 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.280 Tim Burton made his version of Wonka in two thousand 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.520 and five, he went back to the source material and 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:22.440 gave his film the same title as Doll's book, Charlie 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:24.840 and the Chocolate Factory. But I'm not sure Dal would 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.520 have liked it any better. Johnny Depp also gives a 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.559 banana's performance as Wonka, basing it on the hosts of 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:31.680 children shows from. 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.200 His youth improvisation You Little Girl, Say Something. 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:37.960 Any schelling gum? 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:39.760 Chewing gum is really gross chewing gum. 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.440 I hate them most see exactly the same. 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.400 Depp's performance is a big swing, but it isn't nearly 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:50.040 as interesting or live or compelling as Gene Wilder's take. 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.880 Doll's other issue with the nineteen seventy one version is 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.200 the big compromise that had to be made due to 0:10:56.240 --> 0:11:00.720 its really strange production story. It's actually pretty nuts. Apparently, 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.720 it all began when the director, Mel Stewart's daughter ordered 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:05.720 her father to make a movie out of this book 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.040 that she loved so much. So Stewart took Dahl's novel 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.920 to his friend David Wolper. Wolper was a prolific producer 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.160 with the rare ability to think and work outside the box. 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.920 As an example, he was having conversations with the Quaker 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.640 Oats Company, trying to convince them to make a movie 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:27.360 that would introduce a new candy bar they were working on. Somehow, 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.560 Wolper persuaded the food company, which of course had zero 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:33.959 previous experience in the film industry, that Doll's book was 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.400 a once in a generation opportunity for them. Amazingly, he 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.199 got Quaker Oats to buy the rights to Doll's book 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.480 and to fund the entire budget of the movie Go 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.800 Back and Rewatch the opening credits of the nineteen seventy 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.240 one film. You'll be surprised when you notice for the 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:51.040 first time that, in small type it clearly states the 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:54.520 movie's copyright is held by Wolper Pictures Ltd. And the 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:59.920 Quaker Oats Company. Bizarre. Now, if Quaker Oats had just 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.160 funded the movie and stepped away, that might have been 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.319 fine with Doll, but that's not how Hollywood works. Everyone 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.560 wants their say, especially those opening their wallets. In my 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.640 conversation with David, just now, I suggested Doll didn't like 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:14.680 the shift and focus to Wonka away from Chartley. The 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.000 reason this change was made was because Quaker Oats needed 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:21.439 Wonka's name front and center. Otherwise the film wouldn't help 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:23.679 sell the line of Willy Wonka branded candy bars they 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.840 were manufacturing, and it was this change that shifted the 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:31.040 entire focus of the film. It's pretty hard to blame 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.520 Doll for being annoyed about this. It's one thing to 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.240 receive an annoying note from a studio executive. We all 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:38.719 get that, it's quite another to get a creative note 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.120 from a company known for their oatmeal. Honestly, even though 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:44.960 I loved the movie, learning this backstory has definitely put 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.440 me in Doll's camp. Of course, he resents his hard 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.319 fought story becoming a crass money grab for product placement. 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:53.880 One of the great ironies in all this that Doll 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:57.440 probably really enjoyed is that although Quaker Oats did indeed 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.880 develop a Wonka bar, apparently they couldn't get the recipe right. 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:04.280 The chocolate kept melting before being opened, which is like 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:06.560 the one thing you don't want your candy bar doing. 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.880 The company eventually had to remove it from shelves, and 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.360 to add insult to injury, the movie kind of bombed. 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:14.679 It got some good reviews, but no one went to 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.360 see it in the theater. It wasn't until VCRs came 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.920 around years later that the movie became the classic we 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.520 now think of it as. Eventually, Nestley was able to 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.320 buy the Willy Wonka candy factory and started making a 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:28.880 new Wonka bar to write off the good will the 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:33.320 movie has since accrued. Doll was never shy about telling 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.840 people how much he hated the film. It wasn't just 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.520 the title, or the focus or Gene Wilder's performance. He 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.240 also hated the music, which he described as saccharine, sappy 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.800 and sentimental. Here he is on Desert Island Discs in 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.599 nineteen seventy nine talking more about it. 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.560 It was made into rather crummy film. Yes, I wasn't 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:53.800 pleased with it at all. 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:55.120 Did you have anything to do with it? 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:55.360 Well? 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.680 I originally wrote the screenplay, but I made the mistake 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.840 of letting Holly would have a free hand, and I 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:03.040 shall never do that again. 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:06.800 I want to bring in another voice now, a critic 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.120 who's written extensively on the Doll adaptations, including a piece 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.920 I loved on Wonka. He's someone whose childhood was really 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.239 shaped by the author's. 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.040 Bet Court and I'm the author of Hello Stranger and 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:20.000 The Mail Gazed. I grew up in Columbia, but I 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.960 went to a British private school in Bowaka and so Oli. 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.800 Our curriculum, especially for English, was very British focused, and 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.600 so Dahl was my gateway drug to literature in general. 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.440 So I was reading George's Martin's Medicine and James de 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.880 Giant Peach eventually something like The Witches in Matilda before 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.520 I was like twelve and I was reading in my 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:41.960 second language. It's one of those writers that I owe 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.440 my own career as a writer and as a critic, 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:49.520 because even then, there's no way to read Dahl without 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:55.240 understanding how a sentence is structured, how language helps shape 0:14:55.240 --> 0:15:00.280 a character, how an adjective can suddenly turn a phrase. Hadn' 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.160 dawned on me until I was starting to pull everything 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.160 for that piece, how much of my childhood had been 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.520 shaped by him in ways that I hadn't even remembered. 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:11.920 I asked ben Well to talk a little bit more 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.240 about Roald Dahl's specific feelings about the gene Wilder film. 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.360 I think it is the one that everyone knows the best, 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.000 and it's probably the one that he disliked the most, 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:25.840 and so it exists at this weird intersection where like, 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:27.760 if he had had his way, that is not the 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.080 felt that we would have gotten. There's a reason why 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:34.320 there was never another Charlie and the Chocolate Factory adaptation 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:36.280 that happened in his lifetime, because that is how much 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.360 he hated the Gene Wilder version, the way that it 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.840 focused on Wonka rather than Charlie. I think the reasons 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.440 why he disliked it, or he voiced his dislike, is 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.920 also one of the reasons that made it such a classic. 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.520 There is a kind of honeying of his tone and 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.640 a kind of softening of even the Wonka character. I 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.600 think once you'd cast Gene Wilder, who is cookie and 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.200 quirky and kind of out there, but immediately draws you 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:04.920 in and is able to sort of ground a kind 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:09.480 of crazed energy into something that's intriguing and alluring rather 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.600 than terrifying, which I think you can sometimes read into 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:16.080 the book. You have a very different story, a story 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:18.880 that welcomes you, a story that the music is sort 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:23.480 of enveloping you, that kind of wants you to embrace 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.840 this bizarre world of chocolate factory that was creating the 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.200 nineteen seventy one film and continues to speak to a 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.840 lot of people. I'm both happy that we have it, 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.280 and then also keep wondering what kind of film would 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.840 he have wanted for Charlie That maybe needed to be 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.200 more biting, It maybe needed to be crueler, and needed 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.800 to be a little bit more childlike and also. 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:47.720 Adult. 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.280 It's a fascinating curiosity that he so disowned it. 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.040 But of course Dahl didn't hate all of his Hollywood 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.520 experiences or adaptations. He loved writing James Bond, and he 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.720 loved working with Alfred Hitchcock on TV. Being Coolly is 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:03.680 an expert on the Hitchcock anthology that adapted Doll, so 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:05.119 I asked him to tell me a little bit more 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:05.600 about that. 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:09.840 Six stories of his were done for the Hitchcock Show. 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.600 Two of them are absolute classics, Man from the South 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.720 and Lamb of the Slaughter, And so I think anybody 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.520 who who knows Hitchcock has run into both of those 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:26.720 as absolute classics, and I think that the treatment of 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:31.400 them was absolutely perfect. Interestingly, one of those, Man from 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:35.560 the South was remade by Quentin Tarantino in a movie 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:40.000 Four Rooms, where he wrote, directed, and starred in one 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:43.399 of the four segments, and he took the story and 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.159 renamed it The Man from Hollywood, took the same basic 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.560 idea and ruined it. I mean, much as I love 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:55.920 Quentin Tarantino, you do not improve Hitchcock or Roll Doll 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:00.720 by just adding five thousand percent more profanities. It's just 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:01.359 didn't work. 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:05.840 Yeah, any thoughts on why and Hitchcock were such a 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:09.520 good match and maybe why he and Tarantino were a 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:10.280 less good match. 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:13.280 Sure, I think if you think of the other great 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.840 anthology series of the time, which was The Twilight Zone 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:21.840 by Rod Serling when he went and had writers writing 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:26.359 for him, Richard Matheson was a really good match for 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.320 Rod Serling in much the same way. I mean, Hitchcock 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:36.439 already thought like Roald Doll did in terms of wanted 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:41.159 twist endings. Wanted a lot of macabre subtext but also 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:46.679 humor and surprise, and they seemed to be almost the 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:51.080 same person in that regard. So whether Hitchcock was directing 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:55.159 it or one of his trusted people like Norman Lloyd 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.240 was directing it, it came out the same way. And 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:03.719 also Hitchcock British and so there's that sort of affinity 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:10.159 with understanding the understated approach to things that works with 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:11.400 roal doll stories. 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.520 I asked David to describe two of the most famous 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.240 doll stories that were used on Hitchcock Show, the ones 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:18.919 David referred to as classics. 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.280 Man from the South stars Steve McQueen before he was star, 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:27.200 Steve McQueen in Vegas with his last like dollar and 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:31.520 a half, and a guy early early in the morning 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.880 in Vegas comes up to him and offers him basically 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.719 a bar bet and says, I've got the latest convertible. 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:42.960 I'll give that to you if the lighter that you 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.960 just let your cigarette with can light ten times in 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.720 succession without failing. And Steve McQueen's character says, well, I 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:51.560 don't have anything to bet, and he said, well, I 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.040 wouldn't ask you to beout anything that you couldn't afford 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.600 to lose. I'm just how about just the little finger 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:00.040 on your left hand, And so that's what the the 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.680 whole show is. It just screams, don't try this at home. 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.080 I can't imagine this being on TV today, But that 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:08.280 was the idea. 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:12.200 He is a menace. Of course in the islands where 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.080 we used to live. He took forty seven fingers from 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:20.320 different people and he lost eleven cars. 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:25.040 That was one roll dull story. Another is a woman 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:29.639 played by Barbara Belgetti's who later was the matriarch on Dallas. 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:32.560 She plays a pregnant woman. Her husband's a cop. He 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:35.960 comes home and tells her that he wants a divorce, 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:38.320 but she can keep the baby because he's fallen in 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:40.560 love with a younger woman and he just wants to leave. 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.160 So she tells him he's had a bad day at work, 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:45.800 he's upset, he's probably hungry. Let her make him some 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.800 dinner and then they can discuss it. And she pulls 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.080 out a frozen leg of lamb from the freezer and 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:53.360 instead of cooking it, she hits him over the head 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.760 with it and kills him. Then she puts it in 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:58.120 the oven and serves it that The cops who come 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:03.280 looking for the murder weapon just you know, it's just classic. 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:06.520 Boy, this is great. 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:08.440 This piece of meat I've had in food. 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:10.040 She said it finish it, didn't she jack? 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:12.359 She did I'd like to have a piece of this 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:14.160 brown crispy stuff left on the end. 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:14.360 Here. 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:16.720 I supposed to be all right to take this bone 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:17.399 home with my dog. 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:19.520 Gosh, she said you didn't want to see it again. 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.960 I also asked David about Doll's other most famous filmmaking 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:28.000 association after Hitchcock, and that, of course, is with Wes Anderson. 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.000 He found a kindred spirit again. It's sort of like 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:36.840 when a director or a writer finds somebody else that 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:41.320 speaks in a similar voice. It's just a marriage that works. 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:46.000 And so those four stories that Wes Anderson did for 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:50.639 Netflix I thought were wonderful and very complicated where you 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:52.720 wouldn't think you'd be able to lift them off the 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:57.159 page successfully because it was a narrator talking about a 0:21:57.200 --> 0:21:59.560