1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Throughout this series, we've covered Doll's monumental literary successes. But 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: here's the thing. For countless children around the world, their 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: first taste of dolls stories came not from turning pages, 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: but from watching screens. And all of these films and 5 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: TV shows were created through the work of the screenwriters 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: and directors who adapted Doll's stories. These adaptations create a 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: whole new dimension to a storytelling legacy. That's what we're 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: diving into today for my hard podcasts, Imagine Entertainment and Parallax. 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: I'm Marrion Tracy, and this is the secret world of 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: Roll Doll. To start, let me take you back to 11 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: the early in eighteen sixties. We're at a starry Hollywood 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: party and a giant, opulent producer's house in the hills, 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: one of those suffocating parties where everyone's on top of 14 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: each other and thick cigarette smoke gives all the faces 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: a hazy sheen. Roll Doll lurks in the corner, glass 16 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,639 Speaker 1: in hand, rattling his ice cubes, keeping himself apart. He's 17 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: studying his surroundings, taking mental notes, a habit he found 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: useful both as a spy and a writer. He's watching 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: his actress wife, Patricia Neil, float through the room, working 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: her magic with a kind of effortless charm. It is, 21 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: after all, the rap party for her latest film. She 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: thinks it turned out well. You may have heard of it. 23 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: It's called Breakfast of Tiffany's. Doll is very much his 24 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: wife's plus one tonight, which he always hates. He hasn't 25 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: enjoyed a Hollywood party since the one Walt Disney through 26 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: in his honor decades earlier. Doll can't stand actors, especially 27 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: the ones always coming in and out of his house, 28 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,839 Speaker 1: being loud and emotional, disturbing his work, and he really 29 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: can't stand the phony unsophisticated producers who continue not to 30 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: see his brilliance. He's still several years away from getting 31 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: hired to write James Bond. But then scanning the room, 32 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: he spots something that intrigues him. An incredibly beautiful brunette 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: delicately perched on the back of the couch. Audrey Hepburn 34 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: is in the middle of a story to her captivated 35 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: circle of admirers, her giant eyes flashing despite himself, Dahl 36 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: moves toward her, as if helplessly pulled in by a 37 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: movie star's gravitational force. He listens transfixed as Hepburn recounts 38 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: a story from her youth. She was sixteen, she says, 39 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: living in a small village in the Netherlands, which had 40 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: been invaded by the Nazis. During the occupation, her uncle 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: was shot and both of her brothers were forced underground. 42 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: All Dutch civilians faced severe food shortages, regardless of whether 43 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: or not they were Jewish. It became especially dire in 44 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: late nineteen forty four, when Audrey and many others nearly 45 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: starved to death. She weighed about eighty pounds and suffered 46 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: from severe anemia and edema. Then on April sixteenth, nineteen 47 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: forty five, she continues, her town was finally liberated by 48 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: Allied forces. The Nazi occupation was over. Audrey could finally 49 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: venture into the streets, the first time in years. She 50 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: had been alloted in public without fear of punishment or attack. 51 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: The entire population was just erupting in celebration and embracing 52 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: the Canadian and Dutch soldiers who pressed condensed milk and 53 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 1: chocolate bars into their desperate hands. One officer spotting this 54 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: skeletal waif of a girl with the giant brown eyes 55 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: handed Audrey all seven of the chocolate bars he was carrying. 56 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: It had been a very long time since Audrey had 57 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: eaten anything sweet. The taste of these chocolate bars was 58 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: the polar opposite of the fear and pain she had 59 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: been forced to live in throughout the war, and so 60 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: having barely eaten in weeks, she devoured all seven bars 61 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: in a row, just gobbled them all up, and then 62 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: she threw up. Despite that, Audrey tells her spellbatt listeners, 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: all these years later, after everything she's been through, all 64 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: the fame and success she's achieved, chocolate, more than anything else, 65 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: represents freedom to her and opportunity. The very smell of 66 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: it feels like an escape from darkness into the life. 67 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: Doll is mesmerized, and like I said, he's taking notes. 68 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: It's not too long after hearing Audrey Hepburn tell this 69 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: Dale that he begins work on his own story of 70 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: a child for whom chocolate also represents the kind of 71 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: freedom and opportunity beyond his wildest dreams. And ironically, even 72 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: though it was one of Hollywood's greatest legends who may 73 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: have partially inspired his chocolate factory, Doll absolutely despised what 74 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: Hollywood did with that story and so many of the others. 75 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: I reached out to an expert on the subject to 76 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: hear more. All Right, hopefully you've got a message that 77 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: says you're being recorded. 78 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: Okay. 79 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: If you're a long time podcast junkie, you might recognize 80 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: that voice just from that one word. I've been following 81 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: his film and TV criticism for years, and his perspective 82 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: has genuinely changed how I watch things. I'll let him 83 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: introduce himself. 84 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 3: I'm David being Cooley. I'm the TV critic for Fresh 85 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 3: Air with Terry Gross on NPR. I'm also a professor 86 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 3: of Television studies at Rowing univer and I'm a lifelong 87 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 3: TV critic. 88 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: I asked David what he thought about the most famous 89 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: and most beloved of the Doll adaptations. 90 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:13,119 Speaker 3: Mel Stewart, who directed the original Willy Walko movie, gets 91 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 3: it so right in terms of tone that my kids 92 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 3: watching it growing up, they're in their forties now, they 93 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 3: still quote from it. There are still so many lines 94 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 3: that hit them very long in there from the book. 95 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 3: They were also in the Johnny Depp movie directed by 96 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 3: Tim Burton. They landed better in the original. 97 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: I think a movie the doll really didn't like and 98 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: sort of disowned. 99 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 3: Oh see, I don't even know that. 100 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, he wrote the screenplay, Yeah, but I. 101 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: Didn't know he disowned it. 102 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: What was his dissatisfaction, My guess is a big part 103 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: of it was just the shift and focus. You know, 104 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: he wrote Charlie in the Chocolate Factory, and the studio 105 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: made Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, and it's just 106 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: that was not his intention. I think he had issues 107 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: with Gene Wilder's performance, and he overall had a terrible 108 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: taste in his mouth from Hollywood. The only experience you 109 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: ever liked in Hollywood. The two experiences were with Hitchcock 110 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: and then writing the first James Bond film that he wrote. 111 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: Let's pause for a second to dive a little deeper 112 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: into the Chocolate River. Several movie stars have played Willy 113 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: Wonka over the decades, including Timothy Shalomy, Johnny Depp, and 114 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: even Neil Patrick Harris in a strange video parody you 115 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: can find online now to mention all the stage actors 116 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: who performed the role on Broadway and in various theater 117 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: productions around the world. But for me, and I think 118 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: for most people. The defining portrayal of Doll's most memorable, 119 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: most elusive character is by Gene Wilder in the nineteen 120 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: seventy one film. 121 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 2: There's no earthy way of lowing, singing which direction we 122 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 2: are going, There's no knowing where we're rolling or which 123 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 2: way the river's flowing. Is it raining? Is it snowing? 124 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: Is a cane of blowing? 125 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 4: Not a speck of light is showing, So the danger 126 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 4: must be grown. Are the fires of hell a glowing? 127 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 4: Is the grizzly Reaper mowing? Yes, the danger must be growing, 128 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 4: for the rowers. 129 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 5: Keep on rowing, and they're certainly not showing any signs 130 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 5: that they are flowing. 131 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a nutty performance. As I mentioned to David, 132 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: Roald Dahl hated it. Doll's friend and biographer Donald Sturrek says, quote, 133 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: I think he felt Wonka was a very British eccentric. 134 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: Gene Wilder was rather too soft and didn't have a 135 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: sufficient edge. His voice is very light, and he's got 136 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: that rather cherubic sweet face. I think Roll felt there 137 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: was something wrong with Wonka's soul in the movie. It 138 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: just wasn't how he imagined the lines being spoken. According 139 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: to Derek, to be fair at it, do all, Geen 140 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: Wilder does take some crazy swings in that movie. If 141 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: you've seen it, and since you're still listening to the 142 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: show nine episodes in, I bet you have, you know 143 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. Wilder's entire performance is just kind 144 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: of nuts in a really glorious way. Terrifying one second, 145 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: bursting into song for no reason, the next sadistic, cruel 146 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: and incredibly creepy later on, and then ends as kind 147 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: of a teddy bear. It's just all over the place 148 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: in a way that feels really interesting and unexpected. The 149 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: director Mel Stewart says about Wilder, quote, he came up 150 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: with the most wonderful moments in the film portraying Wonka's 151 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: half man, half saint, and that's what makes the movie 152 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: so good. In fact, it's such a unique performance that 153 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: there's been a persistent rumor for half a century that 154 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: Geen Wilder improvised the whole thing when he arrived on set, 155 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: And of course that's not true, but it does sort 156 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: of feel that way, and the actor did have a 157 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,719 Speaker 1: lot of input. Here's Wilder from an interview he did 158 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: with filmmaker Stuart Maybe in two thousand. 159 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 6: And nine, I wouldn't have done the film. And if 160 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 6: they didn't let me come out walking as a cripple 161 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 6: and then getting my cane stuck into a cobblestone and 162 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 6: then doing a forward somersault and then bouncing up and 163 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 6: they all applauded. And the director said, well, what do 164 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 6: you want to do that for? And I said, because 165 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 6: from that point on, no one will know whether I'm 166 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 6: telling the truth or a lyne. And he said, you mean, 167 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 6: if I say no, you won't do the film. And 168 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 6: I said, that's right, I won't and I meant it too, 169 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 6: so they let me do it. 170 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: It's not a surprise that role. Dahl had a problem 171 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: with this, As I already mentioned, he wasn't a fan 172 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: of actors in general, and here's an example of an 173 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: actor being given a lot of authority to alter a 174 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: role that Dahl created. But I think Doll was always 175 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: going to have a problem with whoever played Willie Wonka. 176 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: In his book, Wonka is very underwritten purposefully. He's an 177 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: enigma like his author, which offers the reader al mystery. 178 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: But when you put that same character on film and 179 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: put a human face and voice behind him, either the 180 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: mystery fades, or the actor comes up with such a 181 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: strange interpretation that a whole new mystery is born. When 182 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: Tim Burton made his version of Wonka in two thousand 183 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: and five, he went back to the source material and 184 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: gave his film the same title as Doll's book, Charlie 185 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: and the Chocolate Factory. But I'm not sure Dal would 186 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: have liked it any better. Johnny Depp also gives a 187 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 1: banana's performance as Wonka, basing it on the hosts of 188 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: children shows from. 189 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 7: His youth improvisation You Little Girl, Say Something. 190 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: Any schelling gum? 191 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 6: Chewing gum is really gross chewing gum. 192 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 5: I hate them most see exactly the same. 193 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: Depp's performance is a big swing, but it isn't nearly 194 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: as interesting or live or compelling as Gene Wilder's take. 195 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: Doll's other issue with the nineteen seventy one version is 196 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: the big compromise that had to be made due to 197 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: its really strange production story. It's actually pretty nuts. Apparently, 198 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: it all began when the director, Mel Stewart's daughter ordered 199 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: her father to make a movie out of this book 200 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: that she loved so much. So Stewart took Dahl's novel 201 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: to his friend David Wolper. Wolper was a prolific producer 202 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: with the rare ability to think and work outside the box. 203 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: As an example, he was having conversations with the Quaker 204 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: Oats Company, trying to convince them to make a movie 205 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: that would introduce a new candy bar they were working on. Somehow, 206 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: Wolper persuaded the food company, which of course had zero 207 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,959 Speaker 1: previous experience in the film industry, that Doll's book was 208 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: a once in a generation opportunity for them. Amazingly, he 209 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: got Quaker Oats to buy the rights to Doll's book 210 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: and to fund the entire budget of the movie Go 211 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: Back and Rewatch the opening credits of the nineteen seventy 212 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: one film. You'll be surprised when you notice for the 213 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: first time that, in small type it clearly states the 214 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: movie's copyright is held by Wolper Pictures Ltd. And the 215 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: Quaker Oats Company. Bizarre. Now, if Quaker Oats had just 216 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: funded the movie and stepped away, that might have been 217 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: fine with Doll, but that's not how Hollywood works. Everyone 218 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: wants their say, especially those opening their wallets. In my 219 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: conversation with David, just now, I suggested Doll didn't like 220 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: the shift and focus to Wonka away from Chartley. The 221 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: reason this change was made was because Quaker Oats needed 222 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: Wonka's name front and center. Otherwise the film wouldn't help 223 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: sell the line of Willy Wonka branded candy bars they 224 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: were manufacturing, and it was this change that shifted the 225 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: entire focus of the film. It's pretty hard to blame 226 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: Doll for being annoyed about this. It's one thing to 227 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: receive an annoying note from a studio executive. We all 228 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 1: get that, it's quite another to get a creative note 229 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: from a company known for their oatmeal. Honestly, even though 230 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: I loved the movie, learning this backstory has definitely put 231 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: me in Doll's camp. Of course, he resents his hard 232 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 1: fought story becoming a crass money grab for product placement. 233 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: One of the great ironies in all this that Doll 234 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: probably really enjoyed is that although Quaker Oats did indeed 235 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: develop a Wonka bar, apparently they couldn't get the recipe right. 236 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: The chocolate kept melting before being opened, which is like 237 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: the one thing you don't want your candy bar doing. 238 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: The company eventually had to remove it from shelves, and 239 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: to add insult to injury, the movie kind of bombed. 240 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: It got some good reviews, but no one went to 241 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: see it in the theater. It wasn't until VCRs came 242 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: around years later that the movie became the classic we 243 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: now think of it as. Eventually, Nestley was able to 244 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: buy the Willy Wonka candy factory and started making a 245 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: new Wonka bar to write off the good will the 246 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: movie has since accrued. Doll was never shy about telling 247 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: people how much he hated the film. It wasn't just 248 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: the title, or the focus or Gene Wilder's performance. He 249 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: also hated the music, which he described as saccharine, sappy 250 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: and sentimental. Here he is on Desert Island Discs in 251 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,599 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine talking more about it. 252 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 8: It was made into rather crummy film. Yes, I wasn't 253 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 8: pleased with it at all. 254 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: Did you have anything to do with it? 255 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 5: Well? 256 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 8: I originally wrote the screenplay, but I made the mistake 257 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 8: of letting Holly would have a free hand, and I 258 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 8: shall never do that again. 259 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: I want to bring in another voice now, a critic 260 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: who's written extensively on the Doll adaptations, including a piece 261 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: I loved on Wonka. He's someone whose childhood was really 262 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,239 Speaker 1: shaped by the author's. 263 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 9: Bet Court and I'm the author of Hello Stranger and 264 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 9: The Mail Gazed. I grew up in Columbia, but I 265 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 9: went to a British private school in Bowaka and so Oli. 266 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 9: Our curriculum, especially for English, was very British focused, and 267 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 9: so Dahl was my gateway drug to literature in general. 268 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 9: So I was reading George's Martin's Medicine and James de 269 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 9: Giant Peach eventually something like The Witches in Matilda before 270 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 9: I was like twelve and I was reading in my 271 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 9: second language. It's one of those writers that I owe 272 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 9: my own career as a writer and as a critic, 273 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 9: because even then, there's no way to read Dahl without 274 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 9: understanding how a sentence is structured, how language helps shape 275 00:14:55,240 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 9: a character, how an adjective can suddenly turn a phrase. Hadn' 276 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 9: dawned on me until I was starting to pull everything 277 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 9: for that piece, how much of my childhood had been 278 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 9: shaped by him in ways that I hadn't even remembered. 279 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: I asked ben Well to talk a little bit more 280 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: about Roald Dahl's specific feelings about the gene Wilder film. 281 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 9: I think it is the one that everyone knows the best, 282 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 9: and it's probably the one that he disliked the most, 283 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 9: and so it exists at this weird intersection where like, 284 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 9: if he had had his way, that is not the 285 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 9: felt that we would have gotten. There's a reason why 286 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 9: there was never another Charlie and the Chocolate Factory adaptation 287 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 9: that happened in his lifetime, because that is how much 288 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 9: he hated the Gene Wilder version, the way that it 289 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 9: focused on Wonka rather than Charlie. I think the reasons 290 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 9: why he disliked it, or he voiced his dislike, is 291 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 9: also one of the reasons that made it such a classic. 292 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 9: There is a kind of honeying of his tone and 293 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 9: a kind of softening of even the Wonka character. I 294 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 9: think once you'd cast Gene Wilder, who is cookie and 295 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 9: quirky and kind of out there, but immediately draws you 296 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 9: in and is able to sort of ground a kind 297 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 9: of crazed energy into something that's intriguing and alluring rather 298 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 9: than terrifying, which I think you can sometimes read into 299 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 9: the book. You have a very different story, a story 300 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 9: that welcomes you, a story that the music is sort 301 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 9: of enveloping you, that kind of wants you to embrace 302 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 9: this bizarre world of chocolate factory that was creating the 303 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 9: nineteen seventy one film and continues to speak to a 304 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 9: lot of people. I'm both happy that we have it, 305 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 9: and then also keep wondering what kind of film would 306 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 9: he have wanted for Charlie That maybe needed to be 307 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 9: more biting, It maybe needed to be crueler, and needed 308 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 9: to be a little bit more childlike and also. 309 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 5: Adult. 310 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 9: It's a fascinating curiosity that he so disowned it. 311 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: But of course Dahl didn't hate all of his Hollywood 312 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: experiences or adaptations. He loved writing James Bond, and he 313 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: loved working with Alfred Hitchcock on TV. Being Coolly is 314 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: an expert on the Hitchcock anthology that adapted Doll, so 315 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: I asked him to tell me a little bit more 316 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: about that. 317 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 3: Six stories of his were done for the Hitchcock Show. 318 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 3: Two of them are absolute classics, Man from the South 319 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 3: and Lamb of the Slaughter, And so I think anybody 320 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 3: who who knows Hitchcock has run into both of those 321 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 3: as absolute classics, and I think that the treatment of 322 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 3: them was absolutely perfect. Interestingly, one of those, Man from 323 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 3: the South was remade by Quentin Tarantino in a movie 324 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 3: Four Rooms, where he wrote, directed, and starred in one 325 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 3: of the four segments, and he took the story and 326 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 3: renamed it The Man from Hollywood, took the same basic 327 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 3: idea and ruined it. I mean, much as I love 328 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 3: Quentin Tarantino, you do not improve Hitchcock or Roll Doll 329 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 3: by just adding five thousand percent more profanities. It's just 330 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 3: didn't work. 331 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, any thoughts on why and Hitchcock were such a 332 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: good match and maybe why he and Tarantino were a 333 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: less good match. 334 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 3: Sure, I think if you think of the other great 335 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: anthology series of the time, which was The Twilight Zone 336 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 3: by Rod Serling when he went and had writers writing 337 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 3: for him, Richard Matheson was a really good match for 338 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 3: Rod Serling in much the same way. I mean, Hitchcock 339 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 3: already thought like Roald Doll did in terms of wanted 340 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 3: twist endings. Wanted a lot of macabre subtext but also 341 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 3: humor and surprise, and they seemed to be almost the 342 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 3: same person in that regard. So whether Hitchcock was directing 343 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 3: it or one of his trusted people like Norman Lloyd 344 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 3: was directing it, it came out the same way. And 345 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:03,719 Speaker 3: also Hitchcock British and so there's that sort of affinity 346 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 3: with understanding the understated approach to things that works with 347 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 3: roal doll stories. 348 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: I asked David to describe two of the most famous 349 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: doll stories that were used on Hitchcock Show, the ones 350 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: David referred to as classics. 351 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 3: Man from the South stars Steve McQueen before he was star, 352 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 3: Steve McQueen in Vegas with his last like dollar and 353 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 3: a half, and a guy early early in the morning 354 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 3: in Vegas comes up to him and offers him basically 355 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,719 Speaker 3: a bar bet and says, I've got the latest convertible. 356 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 3: I'll give that to you if the lighter that you 357 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 3: just let your cigarette with can light ten times in 358 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 3: succession without failing. And Steve McQueen's character says, well, I 359 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 3: don't have anything to bet, and he said, well, I 360 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 3: wouldn't ask you to beout anything that you couldn't afford 361 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 3: to lose. I'm just how about just the little finger 362 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 3: on your left hand, And so that's what the the 363 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 3: whole show is. It just screams, don't try this at home. 364 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 3: I can't imagine this being on TV today, But that 365 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 3: was the idea. 366 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 10: He is a menace. Of course in the islands where 367 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 10: we used to live. He took forty seven fingers from 368 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 10: different people and he lost eleven cars. 369 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 3: That was one roll dull story. Another is a woman 370 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 3: played by Barbara Belgetti's who later was the matriarch on Dallas. 371 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 3: She plays a pregnant woman. Her husband's a cop. He 372 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 3: comes home and tells her that he wants a divorce, 373 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 3: but she can keep the baby because he's fallen in 374 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: love with a younger woman and he just wants to leave. 375 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 3: So she tells him he's had a bad day at work, 376 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 3: he's upset, he's probably hungry. Let her make him some 377 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 3: dinner and then they can discuss it. And she pulls 378 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 3: out a frozen leg of lamb from the freezer and 379 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 3: instead of cooking it, she hits him over the head 380 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 3: with it and kills him. Then she puts it in 381 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 3: the oven and serves it that The cops who come 382 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 3: looking for the murder weapon just you know, it's just classic. 383 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 7: Boy, this is great. 384 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 3: This piece of meat I've had in food. 385 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: She said it finish it, didn't she jack? 386 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: She did I'd like to have a piece of this 387 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 2: brown crispy stuff left on the end. 388 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 5: Here. 389 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 7: I supposed to be all right to take this bone 390 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 7: home with my dog. 391 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 5: Gosh, she said you didn't want to see it again. 392 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: I also asked David about Doll's other most famous filmmaking 393 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: association after Hitchcock, and that, of course, is with Wes Anderson. 394 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 3: He found a kindred spirit again. It's sort of like 395 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 3: when a director or a writer finds somebody else that 396 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 3: speaks in a similar voice. It's just a marriage that works. 397 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 3: And so those four stories that Wes Anderson did for 398 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 3: Netflix I thought were wonderful and very complicated where you 399 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 3: wouldn't think you'd be able to lift them off the 400 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 3: page successfully because it was a narrator talking about a 401 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 3: story that then goes in it to another story, and 402 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 3: then that story there's somebody in there telling another story, 403 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 3: and then visually it's so amazing. I can't imagine Roald Dahl, 404 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 3: the spirit of Roald Dall, not being happy with those adaptations. 405 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: Anderson does have such a unique style. Do you think 406 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: that when he works on the Doll shorts and on 407 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: the future, does it become more Andersonian? Does it become 408 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: more Dollion. Is there a blending of the two. 409 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 3: Oh, it's a blend that that's the best way to 410 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 3: put it. Because one of the things that Roald Dahl 411 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 3: did for television that wasn't with Hitchcock was he hosted 412 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 3: his own anthology show in England and he introduced it himself, 413 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 3: acting like a sort of Alfred Hitchcock or a sort 414 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 3: of Rod Serling, and he would sit in his little 415 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 3: armchair the place where he actually did his writing and 416 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: film introductions to his stories. Well, Wes Anderson took that 417 00:22:55,320 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: and had ray Fin's play Roald Dahl introducing the story. 418 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 3: So he adopted one of Royal Doll's television shows as 419 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 3: himself as the host to play with that and enter 420 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 3: into a world which was less real than surreal. So 421 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 3: it was definitely a blending of the two, but very respectful. 422 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit more about the 423 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: Wes Anderson connection. Doll's work has been adapted by so 424 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: many people, but almost all of them, even the ones 425 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: we most associate with Doll, like Tim Burton or Steven 426 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: Spielberg or Mel Stewart, only directed a single film based 427 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: on a Doll story. Hitchcock and Wes Anderson stand out 428 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: here because they worked on so many When Anderson and 429 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 1: Noah Bombach, one of my all time favorite screenwriters, were 430 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: writing the adaptation of The Fantastic Mister Fox, Anderson thought 431 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: they should really immerse themselves, so he contacted Doll's widow, Felicity, 432 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 1: about coming to Gypsy House, where Doll lived, and wrote, 433 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: here's Wes Anderson and Felicity talking about that to the 434 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: Associated Press. 435 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 11: And I thought it would be nice if Noah and 436 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 11: I could visit, and if he could meet Lissi and 437 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 11: see what it's like. And Lissi arranged at my request, 438 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 11: I suppose that we could work here and we set 439 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 11: up an office upstairs. So Lyssi set up an office 440 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 11: for us upstairs with our own dedicated telephone line and 441 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 11: a printer and a desk, and we worked here. And 442 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 11: I think while we were here, it sort of went 443 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 11: from being an adaptation of Fantastic Mister Fox to being 444 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 11: a combination adaptation of Fantastic Mister Fox slash. So I 445 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 11: mean it became about Doll, the character became about Doll, 446 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 11: and that the more time we spent here, the more 447 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 11: ideas from Gypsy House found their way into the story. 448 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's just personally. I really admired the 449 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: Wes Anderson adaptations. The man has his attractors, but it's 450 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: really hard not to be charmed by these films. I 451 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: just don't understand the venom that some critics reserve for Anderson. 452 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: What it feels like ninety percent of movies these days 453 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: are formulaic, ip driven sequels or comic books. Why would 454 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 1: anyone who loves movies get mad about a filmmaker expressing 455 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: a personal vision, even if that vision doesn't perfectly jibe 456 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: with yours. I think critics who say Wes Anderson's films 457 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: are all the same and demean them as the cinematic 458 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: equivalent of a corduroy suit are missing how much range 459 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: he actually has. The four Doll stories he made for 460 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: Netflix are a great example of this. The Wonderful Story 461 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: of Henry Sugar, for instance, is upbeat and vibrant and 462 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: basically a morality tale with a super happy ending. It 463 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: also has one of the all time great setups. 464 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 6: Gentlemen, I'm a man who can see without using his eyes. 465 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 11: He was a small man, about sixty, with a white 466 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 11: mustache and a curious matting of. 467 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: Black hair growing all over the outsides of his ears. 468 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 4: You may bandage my head with fifty bandages in any 469 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 4: way you wish, and I will still be able to 470 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 4: read you a book. 471 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: You seem perfectly serious. Dad's Anderson's first Netflix adaptation of 472 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: Doll his final one Poison, with basically the same cast, 473 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: is the opposite movie downbeat, dark, muted, with a very 474 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 1: unhappy ending, exposing the cruelty and bigotry of the main character. 475 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: And when you think about it, this wide range of 476 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: tone and plod and feeling is kind of perfect for 477 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: adapting the work of a problematic author like Doll. Role 478 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: Dahl could be sweet and caring and loving and did 479 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: a remarkable amount for charity and to make children's lives 480 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: better all over the world. But according to some of 481 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: those closest to him, he could also be mean spirited 482 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: and sometimes cruel, And of course we know about his prejudice. 483 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,479 Speaker 1: So what does Anderson do? He gives us both. What 484 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 1: I like most about these adaptations is how Anderson remains 485 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: so faithful to Doll's writing while seamlessly incorporating his own 486 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: distinctive voice. Here's Anderson on a Zoom Roundtable for Netflix 487 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: on how he went about the adaptation. 488 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 7: I took the text and the entire text, and I 489 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 7: put it into my computer and started out an MS 490 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 7: word document and started just pulling what I thought I wanted, 491 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 7: And I realized that what I wanted was for him 492 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 7: to tell the story. For Dahl to tell the story. 493 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: It was great, I wonder. My favorite of the Anderson 494 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: Doll film is Henry Sugar. It stars Raife Finds as 495 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 1: Roll Dall alongside benett At Cumberbatch, Dev Patel and Ben Kingsley. 496 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: It tells the story of a wealthy gambler who learns 497 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: to be able to see through playing cards, literally to 498 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: look at the back of a card and see that 499 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: it's the use of spades or whatever. He does this 500 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: by practicing intense meditation for years. Sugar uses his new 501 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: power to win a fortune at casinos until he finds 502 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,959 Speaker 1: the thrill empty and unfulfilling, so he devotes his winnings 503 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 1: to establishing orphanages and hospitals around the world. It's basically 504 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: a story about the power of meditation and unrelenting hard 505 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: work to make you a better, more generous person. The 506 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: inclusion of Doll is a character in the film. Works 507 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: especially well here because it feels like such a perfect 508 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: fulfillment of Doll's original intentions. In his book, Dahal deliberately 509 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: plays with our perception of the story as constructed artifice. 510 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: In other words, he breaks the fourth wall, reminding readers 511 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: that he's an author spinning a tale. Near the end 512 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: of Doll's story, the Doll figure cheicily steps out of 513 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: the narrative to speculate about what might happen if this 514 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: were a fictional story rather than a totally factual account 515 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: of real life, even though readers understand it's clearly fiction. 516 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: By casting an actor to play Doll and read some 517 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: of the actual prose from the book, Anderson mirrors this 518 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: metafictional playfulness that began in Dalls novella. I want to 519 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: briefly return to my conversation with Manuel Bettencourt and hear 520 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: his thoughts on the Roll Doll Wes Anderson connection, including 521 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: all the other interesting ways that Anderson finds to be 522 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: faithful to Doll's text. 523 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 9: It had seemed a better suited pair than I thought 524 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 9: they'd be, both because Wes Anderson is you know, we 525 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 9: know him for this exacting zymometrical, colorful diorama films and 526 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 9: what I think he does and he did so well 527 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 9: with Henry Sugar and these other short films that he 528 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 9: made for Netflix in twenty twenty three based on Doll 529 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 9: short stories was reveal artistry and craftsmanship, and how he 530 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 9: elevated Dall's prose. He's not using voiceover, he's having actually 531 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 9: these characters basically read out the story. So in a way, 532 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 9: they're almost like audiobooks that are coming to life in 533 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 9: this sort of I keep thinking of them as pop 534 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 9: up books because they have a kind of like handcrafted 535 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 9: sensibility to them. 536 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: Moving beyond Anderson, to me, the most interesting filmmaker who 537 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: decided to tackle Doll is Quentin Tarantino. Well, hear what 538 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: Manuel thinks about that collaboration. In a second. We already 539 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,959 Speaker 1: heard what David ban Cooley thinks about it. 540 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 3: I think Quentin Tarantino is the biggest miss. 541 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems to be the consensus, which is really surprising. 542 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: Not only is Tarantino a first ballot Hall of Fame filmmaker, 543 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: but he made his adaptation of Dolls The Man from 544 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: the South right when he was at the peak of 545 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: his powers. He made it directly after pulp fiction, and 546 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: a first glance, Tarantino would seem to be as perfect 547 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: a compliment to Doll as Hitchcock is. Both Tarantino and 548 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: Dall write very stylized dialogue. Both love dark humor, both 549 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: revel and violent or grotesque story elements. Both make ample 550 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: use of unexpected violence like what befalls the Key Kids 551 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: and Doll's Chocolate Factory, or port Marvin in the Backseat 552 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: and pulp fiction. Both writers poke fun at genreck conventions, 553 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: and both really enjoy subverting audience expectations. But Tarantino's movie 554 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: just doesn't work. He's adapting the same story that Hitchcock shows, 555 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: the one about someone whose finger will be chopped off 556 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: if he can't get a cigarette lader to work ten 557 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: times in a row, and you can see why that 558 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: set up would appeal to a guy like Tarantino, who 559 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: made such a meal out of cutting off an ear 560 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: in his first film. I think Tarantino's movie doesn't quite 561 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: hold together because he's not interested in the thing that 562 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: makes Doll's story so great. Doll's version is lean focused 563 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: and builds tension through simplicity. Its power comes from the 564 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 1: escalating stakes and the psychological cat and mouse game. Tarantino, 565 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: maybe because he was so young and it was only 566 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: his third movie, gets bogged down in his own indulgences. 567 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: I really do love Tarantino. I think he may be 568 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: the most talented director working today. But in this case, 569 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: it feels like he turned Doll's story into a verbose, 570 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: self referential, wanna be thriller lacking suspense. 571 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 5: So, since you're going to be stuck remembering this for 572 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 5: the rest of your life, you have to decide what 573 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 5: that memory will be so ted you can remember for 574 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 5: the next forty years, give or take a decade, that 575 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 5: you refused a one thousand dollars for one seconds worth 576 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 5: of work, or that you made a thousand dollars for 577 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 5: one seconds. 578 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: Worth of work. Also, Tarantino's choice to change the setting 579 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: and make it about celebrities in Hollywood culture dilutes the 580 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: universal human drama that makes Dolls original so effective. Essentially, 581 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: Tarantino tried to make it a Tarantino film instead of 582 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: serving the story, which, as we've talked about, rarely works 583 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: with Doll. Wes Anderson and Alfred Hitchcock succeed because they 584 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: managed to put their egos aside and blend their distinctive 585 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: styles with dolls. Manuel made a similar point when I 586 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: asked him if there's anything he thinks the good adaptations 587 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: got right and the bad ones got wrong. 588 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 9: I think the best ones, or the ones that have 589 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 9: stood the test of time. I understand how language was 590 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 9: so key to his success. I think there's a world 591 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 9: in which adaptations that try to update him, or modernize him, 592 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 9: or stand down the like weird, quirky britishisms that are 593 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 9: so delectable in his work tend to fail because I 594 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 9: think that's where the magic lies, and the ones that 595 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 9: do it best are the ones that key into that 596 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 9: kind of sensibility. I also think that especially when it 597 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 9: comes to the children's books, any of those films that 598 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 9: don't just understand his work, but also his collaboration with 599 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 9: Quentin Blake and those kinds of illustrations and the kind 600 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 9: of tenor and tone of those you know, I'm thinking 601 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 9: of something like James the Giant Peach It visually, it's 602 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 9: sort of so in the world of Dull and Blake 603 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 9: that I think it hits the right spot. But when 604 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 9: you have filmmakers that are instead trying to use him 605 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 9: just as a jumping off point and sometimes lose probably 606 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 9: what made him so special on the page. 607 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: In our final episode, we'll talk more about exactly what 608 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: made Doll so special on the page, including my conversation 609 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: with an expert on the books who actually knew Doll 610 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: in life and can speak firsthand about the kind of 611 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: impression he made. We'll also talk about Doll's fascinating writing process, 612 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: which I'm pretty obsessed with. I'm really sad this journey 613 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: with Doll is almost over, but don't worry. We've saved 614 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,719 Speaker 1: some of the best for last. Join me for our 615 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: final episode, where I promise we'll try to go out 616 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: with the kind of bang that Doll would have wanted. 617 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: See you there. The Secret World of Role Dall is 618 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: produced by Imagine Audio and Parallax Studios for iHeart Podcasts. 619 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: Created and written by Me Aaron Tracy, Produced by Matt Schrader, 620 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: post production by wind Hill Studios, with editing, scoring and 621 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: sound design by Mark Henry Phillips, editing by Ryan Seton, 622 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: music by a PM. Executive producers Nathan Kloke, Karl Welker, 623 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: Brian Grazer, Ron Howard, and Aaron Tracy. If you enjoyed 624 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: this episode. Be sure to rate and review The Secret 625 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: World of Role Dall on Apple Podcasts or wherever you 626 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Copyright twenty twenty six Imagine Entertainment, iHeartMedia 627 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: and Parallax