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Speaker 1: A witch hunt and the Apple Capital of the world.

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Speaker 1: A rural valley where neighbors actually know each other, turns

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Speaker 1: into the scene of one of the worst sex scandals

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Speaker 1: in US history. Hard to believe, but it happened. Let's

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Speaker 1: start with a Listen to this. It's a three hour

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Speaker 1: drive from Spokane to when Atchie. You drive through the

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Speaker 1: basin of Washington State where they grow everything, and then

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Speaker 1: you drop down into this river valley where when Atchie

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Speaker 1: lives and it's full of apple trees. This is the

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Speaker 1: apple Capital of the world. You're hearing Tom Grant, reporter

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Speaker 1: k R. E. M. Co executive producer of In the

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Speaker 1: Valley of Sin. How does the Apple Capital of the

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Speaker 1: World with that music playing in the background fit in

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Speaker 1: with In the Valley of Sin. I think more of

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Speaker 1: Vegas when I hear of Sin City or the Valley

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Speaker 1: of Sin, not Winatchie, the Apple Capital of the world.

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Speaker 1: No joining me right now, Tom Grant Award winning journalist,

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Speaker 1: former reporter k R. E. M. Professor Journalism, Abraham Baldwin

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Speaker 1: Agricultural College and co executive of In the Valley of Sin.

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Speaker 1: You can find me at doctor Thomas Grant dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Elizabeth Loftus is joining us Distinguished Professor or Psychological Science, Criminology.

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Speaker 1: I could go on and on. University of California, leading

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Speaker 1: human memory expert. Okay, let me let that sink in

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Speaker 1: for a moment, and special guests joining us Mark Dogget,

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Speaker 1: father and husband, Carol Dogget, mother and wife, and their children,

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Speaker 1: John and Sam Dogget. Guys, before we get started, take

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Speaker 1: one more listen to our friend Tom Grant k R. E. M.

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Speaker 1: Nancially has people who are hard working and God fearing

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Speaker 1: and appreciative of their neighbors. You can see this as

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Speaker 1: America's Eden, but humanity is burdened with that serpent in

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Speaker 1: the garden. If I could tell my eleven year old

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Speaker 1: self one thing, it would be run, get the out

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Speaker 1: of there. You were just hearing the voice another special

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Speaker 1: guest joining us, Amber dog It, and you were hearing

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Speaker 1: her say if I could tell my eleven year old

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Speaker 1: self one thing, it would be run and get the

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Speaker 1: f out of there. But why I want to go

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Speaker 1: first to Carol Docket. Carol explained to me what it

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Speaker 1: felt like to get arrested. But thank you for having me, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: The night that I was arrested was like walking into

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Speaker 1: the Twilight Zone, like I could not believe that I

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Speaker 1: had been arrested. I considered myself a child work. Not

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Speaker 1: only did I have my own beautiful children, but I

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Speaker 1: ran a daycare for a while in the eighties, I

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Speaker 1: took in foster kids. You know, I love kids, and

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Speaker 1: I to new kids are easy, Listen to them, pay

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Speaker 1: attention to them, give them what they need, and you

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Speaker 1: can have a happy family. And it was it was

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Speaker 1: definitely a nightmare. It was beyond comprehension. Let me ask

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Speaker 1: you a couple of questions, Carol, because you know, many

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Speaker 1: people believe the home and the family centers around the mother.

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Speaker 1: No offense, Mark, but children often run to mommy for love,

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Speaker 1: for reassurance, for protection. I want to hear about you.

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Speaker 1: Where are you from. I'm originally from California, and Mark

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Speaker 1: and I moved up to Winnaci to raise our kids

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Speaker 1: in a healthier environment. And we loved Winnaci and you know,

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Speaker 1: it was a small community. Let me ask about Winnaci

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Speaker 1: to Tom Grant. Tell me about Winnaci. Is a beautiful city.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, small at that time, about forty thousand people.

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Speaker 1: It has It sits in a valley between the mountains

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Speaker 1: and the wheat fields. A beautiful river runs through it

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Speaker 1: that's great for swimming, and it's just you know, it's

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Speaker 1: it feels like well, I always kind of like springtime

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Speaker 1: to me. Perhaps that's because they have a big apple

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Speaker 1: blossom vestival, and that's what you think of all the

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Speaker 1: apple blossoms blooming in this beautiful city and at the

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Speaker 1: edge of the mountains, and it's a lovely place. Wow,

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Speaker 1: it sounds so much Carrol. Like where I grew up

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Speaker 1: in the middle of Middle Georgia, unincorporated Bibb County, we

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Speaker 1: had cherry blossoms and not apple blossoms. So you go

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Speaker 1: there to raise your children and a more rural, safer environment.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm hearing back to. When you were arrested.

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Speaker 1: What happened? Where were you? Well, we were at home

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Speaker 1: and what were you doing. We were eating dinner and

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Speaker 1: we had just finished up and John had gone to

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Speaker 1: stay with his aunt in a nearby town. And right

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Speaker 1: and the aunt, my sister had called me and said

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Speaker 1: she was just hysterical and she said, um, they just

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Speaker 1: came and got John. I was like, whoo, who just

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Speaker 1: came and got John? And she said this this big

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Speaker 1: police guy and this CPS guy, and John didn't want

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Speaker 1: to go. He was really scared. Okay, hold on, right

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Speaker 1: there a cap aunt CPS, Child Protective Services, that's what

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Speaker 1: that is. So you get this call at the home

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Speaker 1: during dinner supper that they just quote came and got

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Speaker 1: your son from his aunt's home. And then what happened?

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Speaker 1: Well I tried to calm her down. What happened then?

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Speaker 1: So there was a knock at the door and Mark

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Speaker 1: answered the door, and then he stepped outside, and then

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Speaker 1: he was gone. And then there was another knock at

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Speaker 1: the donor and I answered the door and it was

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Speaker 1: two uniformed police officers on the port and they said, ma'am,

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Speaker 1: can you stepped outside? And I stepped outside and then

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Speaker 1: they said you're under arrest. And I like me, why

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Speaker 1: am I under arrest? And they said, just come with us.

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Speaker 1: I said, can I go in and get my purse

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Speaker 1: and tell my family where I'm going, because we had

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Speaker 1: we had extended family there with us, And they said, no,

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Speaker 1: just come with us. And then I was put in

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Speaker 1: the back feet of a car and taken away to Dactor.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Loft Us Distinguished Professor Cycle Logical Science, and criminology.

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Speaker 1: Doctor loft us again, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: You know many people look at the home as a

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Speaker 1: place where you're safe. Thankuary. What is your response to

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Speaker 1: this happening to a mom who seemingly has no idea

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Speaker 1: what's going on? I'm just listening to this. It is

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Speaker 1: absolutely horrifying that she has no idea, that they won't

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Speaker 1: give her a moment to tell the people in the house,

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Speaker 1: they just whisk her away. It's it's horrifying. Well, I guess,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, if cops really believe you've done

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Speaker 1: something horrible, a felony, I guess they would come in

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Speaker 1: dinner and family to hey with that they're making an arrest.

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Speaker 1: But why take a listen to this. I was a

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Speaker 1: pretty good kid. I was Mormon, and one thing about

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Speaker 1: being raised Mormon as we never had the kind of

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Speaker 1: talks that taught us about sex. I hadn't been to

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Speaker 1: sex head yet. In school, things were happening. One of

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Speaker 1: my younger sisters and I started experimenting, playing around, fooling

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Speaker 1: around crime stories with Nancy Grace. I was a pretty

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Speaker 1: good kid. I was Mormon, and one thing about being

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Speaker 1: raised Mormon is we never had the kind of talks

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Speaker 1: that taught us about sex. I hadn't been to sex

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Speaker 1: head yet. In school, things were happening. One of my

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Speaker 1: younger sisters and I started experimenting, playing around, fooling around.

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Speaker 1: She did not like it one time and told my

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Speaker 1: older sister about that. My parents came to me about it,

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Speaker 1: and you know, of course, it's very embarrassing and shocking,

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Speaker 1: and even though I knew it was wrong, I didn't

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what we were doing. So my parents,

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Speaker 1: they knew that they couldn't handle it on their own.

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Speaker 1: They needed help, so they went to counselors. You were

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Speaker 1: hearing the voice, Carol and Mark's son John, who had

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Speaker 1: been I guess ephemistically speaking, playing doctor with his sister

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Speaker 1: and got busted, was embarrassed, didn't really know how to react,

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Speaker 1: and he's with us right now. So John, how old

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Speaker 1: were you when that happened? You were at your aunt's correct. Yes,

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Speaker 1: My parents thought it would be more appropriate to have

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Speaker 1: me removed from the house. We had several I mean,

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Speaker 1: besides my sisters, we had a couple of foster girls

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Speaker 1: that we're living with us as well, joining me. John's dad, Mark, Target,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. What went through your

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Speaker 1: mind when you made the hard decision to send your

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Speaker 1: son to stay with his aunt. It wasn't that part

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Speaker 1: of the decision. It just seemed like the logical decision.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we were trying to get to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of things and and uh like like John said, house

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Speaker 1: full of girls and things as they stood, it was

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Speaker 1: it just made sense too, Daughter, Sam, do you remember

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Speaker 1: when all of this happened? Yes, I do. What do

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Speaker 1: you recall? My younger sister called me upset and told

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Speaker 1: me what had happened. And I wasn't living at home

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Speaker 1: at the time. I was down in California with some

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Speaker 1: family friends, and I in the dramatic teenager. I was

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Speaker 1: felt responsible and told my parents. So my mom would

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Speaker 1: have been going on and and it escalated from there

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Speaker 1: and joining me now Amber dogget sister, daughter, Amber, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. What are your recollections of

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Speaker 1: this time. I was fairly young at the time, and

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Speaker 1: UW young. I was eleven, um, and I might have

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Speaker 1: been ten when this first started to come to light,

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Speaker 1: and so UM me and my young our youngest sister

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Speaker 1: were kind of kept in the dark a little bit.

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Speaker 1: UM we knew somewhat what was going on, but um,

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Speaker 1: we were we were pretty distracted by just childhood life.

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Speaker 1: We had these two new foster sisters that were you know,

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Speaker 1: fun and new and interesting, and we had our friends,

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Speaker 1: and we lived across the street from a park, and

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Speaker 1: so we were, um, we didn't really know all of

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Speaker 1: the details of what was going on. We just knew

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Speaker 1: that that brother had to go live with aunt for

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Speaker 1: a while, and that was it. Take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: We packed John's things up and took him to Moses

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Speaker 1: Lake to stay with his aunt Terry, where she was

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Speaker 1: going to enroll him in school and in counseling, and

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Speaker 1: all of the our girls then would go back to

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Speaker 1: school and life would continue on. And we felt like

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Speaker 1: we had handled it really well. So your idea, between

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Speaker 1: Carol and Mark dog it was to send their son,

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Speaker 1: then about thirteen, to go live with the aunt, get

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Speaker 1: him away from the girls. Let's be very clear, Carol,

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Speaker 1: were any of the girls right, No, not that I

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Speaker 1: know of, Absolutely not. We had asked, we had asked

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Speaker 1: them if you know what had happened, if they had

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Speaker 1: been touched, and and all but ones that know, and

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Speaker 1: then our daughter that had been we got her into counseling,

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Speaker 1: and that was, you know, that was the best we

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Speaker 1: felt like we could do. We did everything that we

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Speaker 1: could think of to take care of it, to make

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Speaker 1: sure the kids got what they needed and that they

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Speaker 1: were safe. We didn't know what else to do. And

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Speaker 1: so the night that you and your husband are arrested

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Speaker 1: and put in the back of a patrol car, you

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Speaker 1: think that the girls are being questioned about that, and

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Speaker 1: that John, your son, has been picked up about that incident. Correct? Correct,

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Speaker 1: little ole? Did you know it was about so much more?

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Speaker 1: For those of you joining us, we are visiting the

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Speaker 1: apple capital of the world. That almost seems like a

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Speaker 1: Disney story until a mom, a dad, a son and

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Speaker 1: children are all taken into police custody. Why listen to

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Speaker 1: this started out the same as before, you know, asking

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Speaker 1: me about my sister, and then they started asking me

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Speaker 1: if my parents had ever abused me. Of course said no.

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Speaker 1: The idea of it was shocking, and they just kept

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Speaker 1: on that vein. They wouldn't believe me when I told

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Speaker 1: them the truth over and over and over. So Carol

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Speaker 1: dog it, you had no idea when cops come into

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Speaker 1: your home, ma'am at the door and arrest you. You

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Speaker 1: have no idea that you're being arrested for molesting your

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Speaker 1: own children. According to them, that's right. In fact, when

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Speaker 1: my sister called and said that they had picked up John,

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Speaker 1: I tried to calm her down, and I was saying,

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Speaker 1: it's okay, they're just going to talk to him. They're

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Speaker 1: just going to interview him, and and I said, their CPS,

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Speaker 1: Terry Child Protective Services. They're here to help to mark

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Speaker 1: husband and father. What is your recollection of what happened

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Speaker 1: that night? Pretty much what Kel said. I knocked at

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Speaker 1: the door, asked me to step out on the porch

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Speaker 1: and unlent the cups, and you're rested for you know,

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Speaker 1: child molest station and it Twilight Zone. It was, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's no basis in fact. You know, you know that

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Speaker 1: in your head. But here you go. You're in the

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Speaker 1: back of a cop car. So let me understand their

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Speaker 1: theory straight out to Tom Grant Award winning journalist now

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Speaker 1: co executive producer of In the Valley of Sin, their

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Speaker 1: theory is the cops theory was that not just the

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Speaker 1: father is molesting the children, but the mother is molesting

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Speaker 1: the children. But the mother it's also sex molesting her

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Speaker 1: own children. They're in it together. This is something that

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Speaker 1: was we saw in Winacci. Is that that um that

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Speaker 1: there was a theory that parents did this together. That's yes.

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Speaker 1: Their theory is the cops theory was that both Carol

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Speaker 1: and Mark were both sex molesting their children. Is that right? Yes, cooperating,

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Speaker 1: cooperating with each other and covering happy each other. So

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Speaker 1: my question isn't was mommy covering for dad? My question

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Speaker 1: is did the cops believe again both mommy and daddy

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Speaker 1: were physically each one, both of them sex molesting their children. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I just read the documents again, and that's with the

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Speaker 1: alleged that both the mother and father, we're having sexual

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Speaker 1: contact with the children. Crime stories with Nancy Grace Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: left Us, Professor Psychology, University of California. I prosecuted a

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Speaker 1: lot of cases, a lot of child molestation cases, a

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Speaker 1: lot of molestation on children by fathers. Very often I

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Speaker 1: would see a mom trying to cover up for the dad,

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Speaker 1: or or frankly, just refused to believe it. In fact,

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Speaker 1: almost always, but rarely and all that literally thousands of

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Speaker 1: cases I investigated and or tried, have I seen a

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Speaker 1: mother and a father both raping molesting children. Yeah, just

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Speaker 1: very very rare. Elizabeth, would you agree? I would agree

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Speaker 1: completely with you, you know, having worked frequently as IT

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Speaker 1: consultants her expert witness on scores of cases. It's mostly

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Speaker 1: just the mail to or accused, but but not in

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Speaker 1: one actuat. Yeah. I want to go back to John Doggett.

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Speaker 1: You were taken out of your aunt's home and if

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Speaker 1: the police are right, then they're justified. But tell me

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Speaker 1: what happened once you got to police HQ. Well, they

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Speaker 1: actually took me to the CPS office in Moses Lake, right,

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Speaker 1: and took me into a pretty nondescript office with Bob President,

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Speaker 1: Tim Abby, the police officer, and the Child Protective Services guy.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know he was the head of CPS at

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Speaker 1: the time, but and they kept me in that room,

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Speaker 1: basically interrogating me for hours. It was I want to

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Speaker 1: stay close to midnight. By the time they left me alone,

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Speaker 1: it felt like it felt like that late. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what time it actually was, but then they both

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Speaker 1: left and left me in a room all by myself.

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Speaker 1: They didn't give me any information. I ended up just

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Speaker 1: laying down on a couch and and just waiting, and

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Speaker 1: eventually a couple that I had never seen before showed

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Speaker 1: up and said they were there to take me to

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Speaker 1: their house. What went through your mind the first time

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Speaker 1: they asked you, had your parents molested you? Oh? I

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Speaker 1: was incredulous. It was such a foreign concept to me

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Speaker 1: to be hurt in any way from my parents that

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Speaker 1: you know, I didn't even have the words to tell

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Speaker 1: them how stupid that idea was. They were asking me

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Speaker 1: things using terminology that I had I was not familiar with.

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Speaker 1: I was really confused, really scared. Bob Perez is a

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Speaker 1: very intimidating officer. Let me go to Sam Doggett daughter

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Speaker 1: and sister. Were you asked the same questions? Basically, I

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Speaker 1: didn't meet with Bob Perez. First. I met with two

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Speaker 1: social workers, two case workers, Dean Ryman and Pat Bogas,

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Speaker 1: and they interviewed my younger sister first, and then when

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Speaker 1: they came to me, they just said, I saw that

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Speaker 1: my sister was really upset, and I was, you know,

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Speaker 1: very protective of her, and I was upset too, And

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Speaker 1: when they asked me questions, they just said they actually

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Speaker 1: didn't have any questions for me. They had all the

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Speaker 1: information they needed, so they didn't feel a need to

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Speaker 1: question you. They he knew everything they needed to know.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct? Correct? So Elizabeth loft us right there.

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Speaker 1: When you suspect mommy and daddy have been molesting children, you,

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Speaker 1: I would assume in every case I or prosecute, you

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Speaker 1: ask every single child. You interview every child. But for

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Speaker 1: some reason not Sam. Who knows why? Who knows why? Interesting?

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Speaker 1: What do you think about that? Tom Grant? I think

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Speaker 1: that's one of the great problems with the case. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm reading the court documents and I'm seeing in

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Speaker 1: these are the police reports that are being made, and

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Speaker 1: they're alleging that the entire family gathers together and has sex,

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Speaker 1: beginning when the children are very young and continuing for years.

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Speaker 1: And it would seem they would be obliged to interview

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Speaker 1: everybody extremely carefully in these cases. The working theory once

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Speaker 1: the whole family would get together and have group sex. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's that's the theory. If Okay, to Amber Dog,

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Speaker 1: it were you questioned about your parents allegedly molesting you? Yes,

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Speaker 1: what happened? It was with Bob Perez and Tim Abbey

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Speaker 1: and our little sister and I were in the room

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Speaker 1: together at first, and then she was sent into a

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Speaker 1: different room and I was questioned alone, and and they

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Speaker 1: they asked me, you know, basic questions, if I knew

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Speaker 1: the difference between a good touch and a bad touch,

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Speaker 1: and and things like that. And then they asked if

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Speaker 1: if my parents had ever bad touched me? And I

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Speaker 1: said no, And Um, immediately I knew that that was

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Speaker 1: the wrong answer, that they were expecting something different. Bob

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Speaker 1: Perez looked angry, like his face got kind of read.

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Speaker 1: And then they continued down that path. And similarly to

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Speaker 1: my brother, they were asking me things that I had.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea what they were talking about. Um.

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Speaker 1: Bob Perez asked, asked if my dad had a boner

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Speaker 1: at one point, and I didn't know what that meant

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Speaker 1: I had. I had no idea what that was. How

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Speaker 1: old were you at this time, eleven? And they asked

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Speaker 1: you did your dad have a boner? How long did

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Speaker 1: you hold out with them questioning you about your parents?

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Speaker 1: I it felt like a long time. I honestly don't

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Speaker 1: know how long it was. It was you were eleven,

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Speaker 1: it was late at night, we had already eaten dinner. Um,

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Speaker 1: it was dark out. Did you ever stay your parents

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Speaker 1: similar as did you? I did? Yes? Yeah? Did you

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Speaker 1: tell you it was? It was very apparent to me

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Speaker 1: that is the only way I was going to get

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Speaker 1: out of that room. I'm stories with Nancy Grace. After

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Speaker 1: I realized that this wasn't going to end until I

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Speaker 1: told them something. I told them that my mom had

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Speaker 1: a French maid outfit because in my mind that was

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Speaker 1: that had something to do with sex. And I told

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Speaker 1: them that I came into an upstairs bedroom and my

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Speaker 1: dad asked me to lay on the bed and he

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Speaker 1: laid on top of me naked. After I told them that,

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Speaker 1: they said, okay, Amber. Did a doctor ever perform an

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Speaker 1: exam of your body a pelvic exam to determine whether

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Speaker 1: you had been molested? Yes? Do you know what the

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Speaker 1: findings of that were? I don't, Carol. Do you recall

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Speaker 1: the findings of that regarding your daughter Amber? Yes? There

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Speaker 1: was no evidence of the views, Tom Grant, isn't that truth? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: This was First of all, these exams are not exactly

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Speaker 1: as scientific as we might like to believe. But Tom, Um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever had a pelvic exam

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Speaker 1: or not. Either you have a hymen or you don't,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of okay, So I didn't know you say that.

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Speaker 1: But then I studied with the doctor admission subsequent in

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Speaker 1: these cases in which we talked about that, and there's

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Speaker 1: there's there is some there's some issues of that in

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Speaker 1: the in the in the dogger case in particular, there

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Speaker 1: was one case in which one of the children was

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Speaker 1: was said to have tearing, you know, some kind of

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Speaker 1: tearing in the hymen, which is and then but the

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Speaker 1: others are they found no evidence of that and in

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Speaker 1: the case of the person who was that, they that anyway,

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Speaker 1: as these cases went along, there was it was extremely

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Speaker 1: inconsistent about whether there was any physical evidence of that

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Speaker 1: sort or not that was acceptable. Back to John Dockett,

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Speaker 1: did you finally give in and state that your parents similars?

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Speaker 1: Did you? I did? I did, And Amber pretty much

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Speaker 1: nailed it on the head. That was that was the

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Speaker 1: only way to appease them. They did not accept the truth.

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Speaker 1: Then would ask the same question over and over and

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Speaker 1: over until they got the answer that they wanted to

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Speaker 1: hear and m and they were they were insistent take

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Speaker 1: a listen to our cut number six. Eventually I started

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Speaker 1: saying yes, and then it was how many times and when?

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Speaker 1: And I looked at the calendar on the wall behind

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Speaker 1: him and just pick picked the date, and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, they believe here is Carol Doggets recollection. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen. This is from in the Valley of Sin.

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Speaker 1: Shortly after dinner, there was a knock on the door

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Speaker 1: and it was Bob Perez and Tim Abbey. They wanted

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Speaker 1: to take Amber and Megan for an interview. Christmas of

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Speaker 1: ninety four. I was eleven. My mom told Megan and

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Speaker 1: I we were going to have to talk to some

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Speaker 1: police officers and we could trust them and that they

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Speaker 1: were trying to help our brother. So we got the

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Speaker 1: girls ready, put their little coats on them, and we

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Speaker 1: took these little girls out on the front porch and

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Speaker 1: told them everything was going to be okay. Everything was

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Speaker 1: going to be okay. I started to get the feeling

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't a good situation, and I called the

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Speaker 1: police station and I asked them when they were bringing

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Speaker 1: the girls home, and I said, well, because it's getting

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Speaker 1: late and the girls need to get to bed. And

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Speaker 1: then a little while later there was a knock on

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Speaker 1: the door and Mark went to the door and he

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Speaker 1: stepped out, and then he was gone. And then there

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Speaker 1: was another knock on the door and I looked out

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Speaker 1: there and there was a police officer saying, ma'am, can

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Speaker 1: you step out on the front court. And I stepped

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Speaker 1: out and he said, you're under arrest for child rape.

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Speaker 1: Before our trial, they kept changing the charges depending on

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Speaker 1: what the kids were saying. John had already recanted, and

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden he went back to making the accusations.

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Speaker 1: But when I heard that, I threw myself down on

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Speaker 1: a bit and I was like, what are they doing

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Speaker 1: to these kids? Like, seriously, what are they doing to

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Speaker 1: these kids? John would never say that about us. He

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Speaker 1: would never say that. In the Valley of Sin. What

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Speaker 1: happens next, accusations of pastor Orgies and the church on

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Speaker 1: the altar go back from the day and started it's

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Speaker 1: a horror story. They kept calling me all kinds of

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Speaker 1: dirty names, and you child molester and new rapist. The

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Speaker 1: worst part was this officer said, Perez is going to

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Speaker 1: get you next. We are following what happens with the

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Speaker 1: Docket family and the new Fox Nation series in the

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Speaker 1: Valley of Sin right here on Crime Stories all week

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Speaker 1: long Tomorrow we learn another family gets swept up, and

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Speaker 1: the one actually witch hunt. It's almost too much to

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Speaker 1: take in Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off good bye friend,