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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm editor Candice Keener, joined by staff writer Jane McGrath. Heye, Jane,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's funny about American culture. We don't really

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Speaker 1: have a long history like many other nations do. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it's so true when I look at when I researched,

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Speaker 1: like the history of European cultures in general and especially,

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Speaker 1: it's like America's a baby. It's compared to other countries.

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Speaker 1: It's like taking the Crying of Lot forty nine, this

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Speaker 1: little novella and comparing it to a Tale of Two Cities,

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Speaker 1: this huge, chunky Dickensie and novel. There's just not that

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Speaker 1: much to our history. And so when well, that's not fair.

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Speaker 1: There's not that much chronologically to our history. And so

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Speaker 1: I get very frustrated when a story that I've grown

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Speaker 1: up believing in may not be true. And let me

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Speaker 1: qualify to that. When I say there's not much to

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Speaker 1: American his straight, I'm not speaking about the indigenous American

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Speaker 1: Indians who were here before the settlers and colonists came.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about a timeline that starts with George Washington

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Speaker 1: era American nation rights exactly, the colonies and um to

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Speaker 1: the point today that we're in. And I'm especially frustrated

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Speaker 1: to learn that the story of Betsy Ross making the

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Speaker 1: first American flag may not be true because I feel

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Speaker 1: like there are so many men who get credit for

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Speaker 1: the different um aspects of our culture that shaped our

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Speaker 1: nation to what it is today. I really like the

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Speaker 1: idea that a woman is do credit for something that

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Speaker 1: we still honor and use on a daily basis. But

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Speaker 1: as it turns out, that may not be true. The

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Speaker 1: credit for the American flag may actually go to a

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Speaker 1: man as well. It's a pretty complicated situation. We don't

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Speaker 1: really know exactly what happened and how true it is.

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Speaker 1: And I was really shocked to having learned like all

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Speaker 1: the different facets that went into the story. And it's

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Speaker 1: got a little controversy going on about Betsy Ross. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and even if you go to the official Betsy Ross

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Speaker 1: House website, they say, um so historical fact or well

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Speaker 1: loved legend. The story of Betsy Ross is as Americans

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Speaker 1: apple pie, after your visit, decide what you believe. Well,

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Speaker 1: Jane and I did not get a chance to visit

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Speaker 1: Betsy Ross house. So we're gonna have to decide what

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Speaker 1: we believe um from the confines of our cubicles in

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Speaker 1: the Health staff Works dot Com office. So here guess.

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Speaker 1: So to give you some background on Betsy Ross herself,

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Speaker 1: she was born January one, seventeen fifty two, as Elizabeth Griscombe,

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Speaker 1: and she was the eighth of seventeen kids in her

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Speaker 1: Quaker family. She was originally born in New Jersey, but

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Speaker 1: when she was about three, her dad, who was a

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Speaker 1: pretty successful carpenter, moved the family to Philadelphia, the bustling

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Speaker 1: urban area. And when you think of Betsy Ross, you

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Speaker 1: may imagine her as a very humble and make woman

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Speaker 1: wearing her little calico print dress with the white apron

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Speaker 1: and the little death streffle cap and um. We've we've

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Speaker 1: heard before that she was a seamstress, but she was

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Speaker 1: actually an upholsterer, which deepens my respect for her because

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Speaker 1: I think it would be, you know, far more difficult

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Speaker 1: for a woman to handle such heavy fabrics as rugs

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Speaker 1: and curtains and Venetian blinds, even that she had to

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Speaker 1: grapple with. And not only was she trained as a seamstress,

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Speaker 1: but she apprenticed as an upholsterer in Philadelphia with another

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Speaker 1: very steamed upholsterer named John Webster. And um, she actually

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Speaker 1: met another upholsterer with whom she fell in love, and

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Speaker 1: that way was John Ross. This is a really cute story. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because John Ross came from an Anglican family, was sort

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Speaker 1: of a son of a preacher man even because his

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Speaker 1: dad was assistant rector of Christ Church. So when John

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Speaker 1: and Betsy fell in love, her family, her Quaker family,

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Speaker 1: didn't approve of it. Starcross lovers, Yeah, yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: really sweet. And so they actually eloped because her family

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Speaker 1: didn't approve it, they had to elope. They fled across

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Speaker 1: the Delaware of her. They married in a Hugs tavern

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Speaker 1: in New Jersey, and they later returned to Philadelphia and

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Speaker 1: opened a shop together, you know, the two upholsterers. And

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Speaker 1: unfortunately that didn't last you long because John was part

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Speaker 1: of the local militia and he was killed in a

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Speaker 1: gunpowder explosion I think only two years into their marriage.

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Speaker 1: She was really treaded and they hadn't even had children

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Speaker 1: yet at that point. In a widow at twenty four,

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Speaker 1: and so she was sitting little for a little while,

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Speaker 1: and then she met Joseph Ashburne and she later married him.

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Speaker 1: And he was a seaman and when he was at sea,

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Speaker 1: his ship was captured by the British and he was

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Speaker 1: tossed into prison and before the British released American prisoners

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Speaker 1: in two contracted a strange illness and he died. And

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Speaker 1: unbeknownst to Joseph Ashburne, at home, Betsy had given birth

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Speaker 1: to their second child, and their first child had actually

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Speaker 1: passed away when she was only about nine months old.

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Speaker 1: So at this point tragedy had struck three times. It

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Speaker 1: has been some one child. Um, so she had a

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Speaker 1: really tough life. We don't usually think about Betsy Ross

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Speaker 1: in that way, but yeah, Tuton widow by this time.

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Speaker 1: It was about seventeen eighty three when she married again.

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Speaker 1: This was This is also kind of a cute story

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Speaker 1: because she was old friends with the man named John

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Speaker 1: Claypool and they sort of rekindled the relationship after the

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Speaker 1: death of her second husband. And what's also sweet about

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Speaker 1: this is that during this marriage she was able to

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Speaker 1: rejoin the Quakers. The Quaker friends in this particular sect

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Speaker 1: of the of the Quakers was actually not traditional because

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Speaker 1: they supported America's fight for independence, and you might know

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Speaker 1: that Quakers traditionally are pacifists, so this is an interesting

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Speaker 1: um facet about her her faith. By this time, Betsy

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Speaker 1: had about uh well, she had five daughters with John Claypool,

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Speaker 1: but unfortunately one daughter died young and John and Betsy

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Speaker 1: were married for thirty four years, but he actually became

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Speaker 1: disabled later in life due to some battle injuries, and

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Speaker 1: so she was caring for him in addition to caring

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Speaker 1: for four daughters. And then in sevente her mother, father,

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Speaker 1: and sister were all killed by an outbreak of yellow fever,

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Speaker 1: so she got custody of her niece. So at this

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Speaker 1: time she's got six children living under her care, plus

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Speaker 1: a disabled husband, and she's running the household. So her

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Speaker 1: daughter Clarissa is actually helping her with her business. And

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Speaker 1: by this time Betsy is supplementing the income she makes

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Speaker 1: as an upholsterer with helping out with um I guess

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Speaker 1: like tents and soldiers uniforms and things like this from

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Speaker 1: the war that she can make a little bit of

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Speaker 1: extra pocket money on the side. And she actually continued

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Speaker 1: her business for fifty years and then she finally retired.

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Speaker 1: She retired and by about eighty one years old, I

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Speaker 1: think she she was officially blind, unfortunately, and a few

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Speaker 1: years later she she died in eighteen thirty six peacefully.

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Speaker 1: And so even though she had a hard love, she

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Speaker 1: died peaceful, she did. And so to know this background

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Speaker 1: who Betsy Ross wise, it really helps to enhance my

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Speaker 1: understanding of the Betsy Ross myth because you hear that

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Speaker 1: George Washington and this Congressional committee, or at least they

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Speaker 1: called themselves, that Congressional Committee of Robert Morris and George Ross,

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Speaker 1: supposedly turned to Betsy, who was not only a fixture

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Speaker 1: in the community as an esteemed upholsterer and an esteemed businesswoman,

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Speaker 1: but she was seen as like a good community member.

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Speaker 1: I think she was a friendly woman. And obviously to

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Speaker 1: care for a household like that, she had to have

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Speaker 1: had a really plucky spirit and a really hearty sense

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Speaker 1: of business about her. Right. And to give you a

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Speaker 1: little context about um the famous flag story, this occurred

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Speaker 1: pretty soon after the death of her first husband, John

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Speaker 1: in seventeen seventy six. About so, like you mentioned these

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Speaker 1: three men, uh George Ross, that might spark up interest

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Speaker 1: because they have the same lest name. He was actually

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Speaker 1: a relation of her late husband. He was he was

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Speaker 1: his uncle, and so it's it's plausible, you know, that

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Speaker 1: these three men would would come to Betsy. And also

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Speaker 1: in addition to that, part of the story is that

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Speaker 1: George Washington was actually a friend of the family, friend

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Speaker 1: of Betsy's, and he had called on Betsy a few

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Speaker 1: times socially and professionally at her upholster shop. So these

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Speaker 1: three men come in, like you said, they say they're

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Speaker 1: part of a Congressional flag committee. And George Washington takes

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Speaker 1: out a scrap of paper and on it it has

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Speaker 1: a sketch of what he sees as his idea for

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Speaker 1: the flag of the new nation, and he asks if

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Speaker 1: she can sew it, and like you mentioned, she said,

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Speaker 1: I do not know, but I will try. Um and

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Speaker 1: I'm daunted spirits Yeah, and uh one one really cute

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Speaker 1: part of the story. My favorite part is that she

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Speaker 1: suggested an alteration to the design. I mean to the

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Speaker 1: gal to go up to George Washington and say, um,

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Speaker 1: I don't really like your your design and gonna do

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Speaker 1: something different. She actually suggested um five pointed stars rather

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Speaker 1: than six pointed stars, which was not standard at that time, right,

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Speaker 1: And I've read that she actually took out of a

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Speaker 1: pair of scissors and just snipped off from one of

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Speaker 1: the points of the star to show them how greatly

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Speaker 1: it could be improved with this minor alteration. And the

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Speaker 1: flag was not only a symbol for the fledgling nation,

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Speaker 1: was also a really important tool for helping to identify

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Speaker 1: sides and different skirmishes that were breaking out during the war,

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Speaker 1: because up until this point they've been using the Union Jack,

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Speaker 1: which was the British flag inside the design of another flag,

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Speaker 1: and that could be pretty confusing. So they needed something

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Speaker 1: that looked really different, something that was distinctly a part

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Speaker 1: of the you know, young United States. And apart from

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Speaker 1: the practical reasons, obviously, you know you're breaking from your colonizers.

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Speaker 1: You want to have a flag that's that's drastically different

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Speaker 1: from from from Britain at this time, and so the flag,

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Speaker 1: I think both practical and very symbolic reasons. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's close to their hearts, right. So my perception of

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Speaker 1: Betsy Ross would be that she was a pretty gregary,

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Speaker 1: as outgoing woman, hard worker. I can't imagine she was

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Speaker 1: a sort of woman who went home at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day and hung her head and didn't say

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Speaker 1: hello to her neighbors. And I don't think this congressional

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Speaker 1: committee had bound her to secrecy in any way. So

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Speaker 1: that's why it's so peculiar to me that none of

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Speaker 1: the colonists at the time heard this Betsy Ross story.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you put yourself in her shoes. Jane say

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Speaker 1: that Barack Obama came up to euro and said, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I really think we need a new flag

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Speaker 1: for foreign nation. And you said, okay, Barack, I think

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Speaker 1: what you've got going here is pretty good. But instead

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Speaker 1: of um navy blue, why don't you use teal and

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Speaker 1: you make this brand new flag. You would tell people,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you. Yeah, I mean I would. I would publicize it.

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Speaker 1: I would probably first say I can't so I can

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Speaker 1: write an article for you, but do not know, but

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Speaker 1: I will try. Um. But yeah, yeah, it is weird.

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Speaker 1: So Betsy didn't tell anyone, and it wasn't until um what,

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Speaker 1: almost a century after this this event supposedly went down

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Speaker 1: that her grandson William Cambay in eighteen seventy addressed the

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Speaker 1: Historical Society of Pennsylvania with a speech about his paper,

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Speaker 1: the History of the Flag of the United States, and

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Speaker 1: this paper was based on stories oral stories he'd heard

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Speaker 1: from his grandmother Beth Stay. Yeah, and this is an

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Speaker 1: important part is that Canby was very open about the

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Speaker 1: fact that he had no hard evidence to support the story.

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Speaker 1: You know, this was, like you mentioned, almost a century

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Speaker 1: eighteen seventy when he made the speech, and so um,

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Speaker 1: he could only rely on the stories he had heard

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Speaker 1: from his grandmother, his late grandmother. By this point, you know,

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Speaker 1: if he if you hear some the story from your

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Speaker 1: own grandmother, you're likely to believe it, you know, And

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Speaker 1: so you can see why it Canby wanted to publicize

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Speaker 1: this really fantastic story. But it is sad that he

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Speaker 1: had no evidence to back himself. It was all anecdotal

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Speaker 1: and the refrain we keep repeating the I do not know,

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Speaker 1: but I will try. I promise last time I'll say it. Um.

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Speaker 1: I suppose like that's a line that kept being handed

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Speaker 1: down and re retelling of the story. And obviously, you know,

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Speaker 1: he very much was loyal to his grandmother and wanted

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Speaker 1: to get this down for the history books, that his

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Speaker 1: grandmother had created the first flag of the United States,

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Speaker 1: and there are definitely reasons to suspect that that's true.

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Speaker 1: Like we said before, if George Ross was her late

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Speaker 1: husband's uncle, he might have known that Betsy could have

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Speaker 1: been struggling financially and she needed a little bit of

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Speaker 1: extra work to help out, you know, with the home,

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Speaker 1: and so he could have told George Washington and Robert Morris,

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Speaker 1: you know, let's go to backstage. She can help us

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Speaker 1: with this flag. She could really use the money. Um.

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Speaker 1: One problem with that too, though, is the fact that

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Speaker 1: if there were actually a Congressional Flag committee, you think

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Speaker 1: that there would be a hard there would be records

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Speaker 1: of it, because Concress is pretty good about keeping records,

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Speaker 1: and there's no evidence of that of such a committee.

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Speaker 1: One writer, Ed Cruz brought up the point that if

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Speaker 1: there were such a committee, it's really unlikely that that

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Speaker 1: George Washington would be a member of it because he

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Speaker 1: wasn't a member of Congress. And so my response to

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Speaker 1: that would be, maybe Betsy didn't quite understand how they

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Speaker 1: were identifying themselves. Maybe she just abolished the story. Shouldn't

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Speaker 1: really know what sort of representation they were making of themselves.

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Speaker 1: She just called them some sort of congressional committee, or

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Speaker 1: maybe she even said, you know, these men came and

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Speaker 1: family members later retold the story and said they were

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Speaker 1: a congressional committee. But you're really go for it, Betsy.

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Speaker 1: But um June fourteen, seventeen seventy seven, Congress passed a

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Speaker 1: law about the flag and clearly identified the flag as

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Speaker 1: having thirteen red and white stripes and thirteen stars on

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Speaker 1: a blue background, not dissimilar to the one that Betsy

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Speaker 1: was said to have helped make. Yeah, so that's one

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Speaker 1: piece of evidence we know, like we know by that

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Speaker 1: point they had started, they knew what the flag was

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Speaker 1: going to look like. And then even more concrete evidence

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Speaker 1: would be that on seventy seven, the Pennsylvania State Navy

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Speaker 1: Board paid Betsy for making flags. The problem here is

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Speaker 1: did they pay her for making the first original American

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Speaker 1: flag or did he pay her for recreating and making

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Speaker 1: more of the same design already? And not to play

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Speaker 1: devil's advocate, I think you're gonna lench me in a

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Speaker 1: few seconds for bringing all these holes in the story.

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Speaker 1: But there's no evidence to show that George Washington actually

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Speaker 1: knew or dealt with Betsy like the story says he

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Speaker 1: was supposed to be a family friend who had called

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Speaker 1: on her many times. There's no evidence in letters or

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Speaker 1: anything that Washington never mentioned her name or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: And I mean that's not to say that this is

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Speaker 1: evidence against. It's just lack of evidence. So we need

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Speaker 1: to keep that in mind when we're thinking about the

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Speaker 1: historical accuracy of the story. I guess. So this brings

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Speaker 1: us to part two of the Grand American Flag story,

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Speaker 1: and that is a real renaissance man and kind of

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Speaker 1: a looker, judging from his old photographs, um well not photographs,

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Speaker 1: is before photographs, office portraits, I should say. And that's

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Speaker 1: Francis Hopkinson, who was descended from an Englishman who was

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Speaker 1: actually friends with Benjamin Franklin, and his father died when

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Speaker 1: Frances was pretty young, and his widowed mother made it

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Speaker 1: a priority to give Frances a really good education. I

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Speaker 1: think most mothers look at their children and think, oh,

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Speaker 1: they're very gifted. I wanted to do right by them.

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Speaker 1: But in this case, she knew Frances was something special

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Speaker 1: and he kind of was. And I suspect he kind

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Speaker 1: of knew it too. Yeah, you think he's got an

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Speaker 1: arrogant idea, but he graduated from the College of Philadelphia

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Speaker 1: and became a lawyer. And in addition to law, he

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Speaker 1: also dabbled in science, music, poetry, painting, and he was

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Speaker 1: known for his satirical quips. One thing I like about

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Speaker 1: at Hopkinson is that he was an accomplished harpsichord player,

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Speaker 1: and he actually composed a lot of songs, of secular

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Speaker 1: and religious songs. And Um also a man after my

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Speaker 1: own heart. He were a lot of literary essays, and

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Speaker 1: so you can see that he was an incredibly accomplished guy.

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Speaker 1: And in addition to those attributes, he was also a

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Speaker 1: congressman of New Jersey and a signer at the Declaration

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Speaker 1: of Independence. Yeah, so nothing to sneeze it right there.

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Speaker 1: And in addition to that, he was a judge later

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Speaker 1: in life, and he was UM. He was a big

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Speaker 1: pusher for the Constitution and he wrote a lot of

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Speaker 1: articles that pushed for Pennsylvania to ratify it. So he

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Speaker 1: he was He was an influential UM politician as well.

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Speaker 1: So his name comes up in this debate about the

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Speaker 1: American flag because supposedly Um he wrote a lot of

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Speaker 1: letters requesting payment for his design of the American flag,

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Speaker 1: and he certainly designed a lot of things, and even

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Speaker 1: his personalized book plate which got circulated inside a book

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Speaker 1: that he lent to someone and got tossed around through

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Speaker 1: a few hands and eventually came back into his possession.

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Speaker 1: Had a book plate that had three six pointed stars,

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Speaker 1: and as you'll recall, the six pointed star was the

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Speaker 1: design that Betsy shot down and improved upon. But I

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Speaker 1: guess that became sort of a trademark of Hopkinson's, or

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Speaker 1: at least associated with his name. Yea, and among his

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Speaker 1: other like really accomplished things. We know that he designed

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Speaker 1: or helped design things such as the steal for the

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Speaker 1: State of New Jersey, Continental Board of Admiralty, Seal uh

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Speaker 1: seal for American Philosophical Society, for the Treasury too, yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: and for the Great Seal of the United States. Apparently

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Speaker 1: he had hand in that and there as a side

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Speaker 1: note to that. Um. So there are suggestions that he

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Speaker 1: was a Mason and he helped, you know, incorporate these

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Speaker 1: Masonic uh um uh symbols and and clues into the

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Speaker 1: Great Seal of United States. But that's a whole podcast

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Speaker 1: on its own. So so he started this letter writing

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Speaker 1: campaign after he supposedly created the flag because he wanted

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Speaker 1: to be compensated for his work, and he started with

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Speaker 1: a letter to the Board of Admiralty and then one

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Speaker 1: to Congress, which actually included a bill for all of

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Speaker 1: his design. My favorite part of the story is that

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Speaker 1: when he when he wrote the original letter, he wanted

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Speaker 1: compensation in the form of a quarter cask of public wine, which,

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Speaker 1: like you mentioned to me earlier, candices that I think

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Speaker 1: I should get paid that for my writing my article.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to argue with that um. And I

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Speaker 1: think that this letter, the second one, actually the one

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Speaker 1: to Congress, got lost or I got ignored in the

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Speaker 1: bureaucratic shuffle of the Board of Treasury. So he resubmitted

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Speaker 1: another letter, and this time he itemized all the different

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Speaker 1: charges for all of his different designs. We know for

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Speaker 1: a fact that there are journals from the Continental Congress

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Speaker 1: that gives some evidentiary support to the fact that Hopkinson

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Speaker 1: made the flag. But the Board of Treasury really stood

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Speaker 1: firm by the idea that and this is a direct quote,

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Speaker 1: he was not the only person consulted on the flags design,

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Speaker 1: which leads me to believe that perhaps Betsy Ross came

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Speaker 1: up the very nascent design for the flag and then

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Speaker 1: it was passed along to Hopkinson for approval and embellishment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or I would think actually the other way around because

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Speaker 1: of his six pointed um. Yeah. And so so maybe

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Speaker 1: it was passed to Betsy after that, and maybe that

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Speaker 1: was part of the scrip of paper that she supposedly

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Speaker 1: looked at and based based her a design on. Well,

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Speaker 1: in the end, we can't really be sure. And if

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Speaker 1: you look at different websites out there about the American flag,

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Speaker 1: and especially ones that are devoted to Hopkinson or devoted

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Speaker 1: to Ross, there's some very biased points of view. So

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Speaker 1: we've been walking I think a fine line in presenting information.

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Speaker 1: Obviously I'm swaying towards the Vetsy Ross side because I'd

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Speaker 1: like to see Um the woman get some credit where

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Speaker 1: I think it's do. But the moral of the story,

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Speaker 1: if there is one, is keep good records, you know,

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Speaker 1: keep good records. There's no reason that as young as

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Speaker 1: our nation is, that the information about who created the

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Speaker 1: first flag shouldn't be on file somewhere. Well, now we

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Speaker 1: have like picture phones and stuff, so we can, you know,

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Speaker 1: if George Washington or Barack Obama comes in, we can

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Speaker 1: we can stab a picture to prove it. There you go, exactly,

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Speaker 1: and not too long ago, I actually blogged about um

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Speaker 1: the story of the Star Spangled Banner, based on a

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Speaker 1: flag that was flown at Fort McHenry and Francis Scott

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Speaker 1: Key was inspired by the battle so much that he

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Speaker 1: wrote the star Spangled Banner And that blog post was

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Speaker 1: actually based on a reader request. And that's what we

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Speaker 1: do on the stuff you Missed in History Class blog.

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Speaker 1: We're just that kind of kind of podcast, you guys.

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Speaker 1: You write to us with questions and we will do

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Speaker 1: our best to answer them. That's right. Me and Candice

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Speaker 1: write every day we post on the stuff you missed

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Speaker 1: in History Class blog on how stuff works dot com

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Speaker 1: and uh, come and take a look and leave comments

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Speaker 1: and let you know, let us know what you think.

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Speaker 1: And as always, you can still reach us by email

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Speaker 1: at History Podcast at how stuff works dot com. And

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Speaker 1: we certainly hope that you will visit the website to

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Speaker 1: read this great article that Jane wrote called did Betsy

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Speaker 1: Ross really make the first American Flag? On how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of

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Speaker 1: other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com