1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Hi, it's Katie. Welcome to Wellness. Check our series of 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: some of our favorite Next Question episodes focused on women's 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 1: health and wellness. Enjoy. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric and 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: this is Next Question. You know. I've known and admired 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: doctor Sanje Gupta for years. He's such a great guy. 6 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: He's also a neuroscientist and the chief medical correspondent for CNN, which, 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: as you can imagine, when COVID hit put him at 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: the center of the pandemic storm. 9 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 2: So this may be a new pathogen that circulates around 10 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 2: the world. You're running into a situation where you just 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: don't have beds. If those numbers don't budge, it's going 12 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 2: to be very hard to get to hurt immunity. I 13 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 2: think this has added a lot more urgency to an 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: already very urgent situation. 15 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: There has been so much to cover. In fact, Sanjay 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: also launched a daily podcast on the subject. 17 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 2: I'm doctor Sanje Gupta's chief medical correspondent, and this is 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 2: coronavirus fact versus fiction. 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: Throughout this very long year, Sanche has really acted as 20 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: our guide, helping us understand this thorny virus and what 21 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: it means for our health, our communities, and our country, 22 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: and he admits it's been as all consuming as you 23 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: might think. 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 2: All I think about, Katie is been COVID, you know, 25 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: I viral transmission, how people evaluate risk social behavior. But 26 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 2: there is some joy in getting so head down in something. 27 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: I feel like we live such distracted lives. You get 28 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 2: a little bit about a lot of things, like I 29 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 2: really know so much about this virus. 30 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: I also wanted to talk to sanj because he's got 31 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: a new book out. Yeah, believe it or not, he 32 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: found time to write a book during this crazy year. 33 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: It's called Keep Sharp, Building a Better Brain at any Age, 34 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: and it's fascinating. It's also a practical guide for better 35 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: brain health, something I'm extremely interested in. And don't worry, 36 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: we do get into that, but since I had the 37 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: COVID expert of experts, I couldn't help but start our 38 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: conversation there. You must feel like you have a PhD 39 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: in virology at this point, right, yeah. 40 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: I mean totally and and and the the irony is, Katie, 41 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: is that this is a novel virus, right, So I 42 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: mean novel actually means something, which which that didn't really 43 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: strike me until a few months into this either, like 44 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: I think, because you said the PhD in virology, the 45 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: irony is that that I think people who had a 46 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: lot of knowledge about this in some ways it got 47 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: in their way because it's very hard to think about 48 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: something as novel. You immediately want to put it into 49 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 2: a box. It's the box of sars, it's the box 50 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 2: of H one, N one, whatever you come up with. 51 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: But this was novel, which means that if you try 52 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: to put it in a box, you probably got it wrong. 53 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: So they had to cast aside their preconceived notions completely, 54 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: and that's hard to do, right for a scientist. 55 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 2: It's really hard to do, and it goes against sort 56 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: of how you think about things. Let's get the best experts. 57 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: And by the way, I think there's really really value, 58 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: great value and expertise. Don't get me wrong, But what 59 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: you would do is grab the coronavirus experts, grab the 60 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: pandemic experts, and that was all important. But this virus 61 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: was just behaving in a totally novel way. I mean. 62 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: One of the best examples, as you well know, was 63 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: everybody believe that respiratory viruses really only spread when you 64 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: were sick, when you had symptoms that's when you spread. 65 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 2: And you know, the guidance was well screen people at 66 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,119 Speaker 2: airports will tell people to stay home if they're sick, 67 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: which people should do anyway, regardless of whether in a pandemic, 68 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 2: and we should be able to quell this thing. No 69 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: one really believed initially that this thing would spread most 70 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: efficiently when people didn't have symptoms. Was that's never really 71 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: happened before, as doctor Faucia said, never in the history 72 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 2: of respiratory viruses has that happened before. That's novel. I mean, 73 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 2: you know, you remember the story of typhoid Mary. She 74 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: was a silent carrier of typhoid. It was so dramatic 75 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 2: because she infected all these people in this single residence 76 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: in this community and all that, and people couldn't figure 77 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 2: it out. This is like millions of typhoid Mary's in 78 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: a way of a brand new disease, COVID. So it 79 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 2: was quite extraordinary to sort of see see how that 80 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: all played out. 81 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: Well, before we talk about your new book, keep Sharp, 82 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: because I'm really interested, as someone who's sixty four, in 83 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: maintaining my mental acuity as i age. I just want 84 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: to ask you one last question about COVID and that is, 85 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: are we seeing the light at the end of the tunnel? 86 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: Every time I feel optimist, stick Sanjay, I then read 87 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: something about variants or increase cases, and it's quite nerve racking. 88 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: I think for the average person who doesn't have a 89 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: medical degree or hasn't been deeply, deeply entrenched in the 90 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: science of this, I mean, are we screwed? Are we 91 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: at the tail end of this pandemic? 92 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 2: I do feel the light on my face, in your face. 93 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I do think that the tunnel is the 94 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: end of the tunnels in sight. I mean the can 95 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: I just remind people, and I think this is such 96 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 2: an important reminder that they were having rave parties in 97 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: Wuhan at the end of last summer, and I bring 98 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: that up only to say that we talk about the vaccines, 99 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: we talk about the fact that science is now rescuing us, 100 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 2: which is great, fantastic, but so much of this didn't 101 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: need to happen. And I know that's not your question, Katie, 102 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: but I just feel like I can never answer a 103 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 2: question about about the sort of future or being optimistic 104 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: about this pandemic because I'm so it's just so, it's so, 105 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 2: I'm so angry in so many ways. I mean, you know, 106 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 2: six hundred thousand people died and some of them are 107 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 2: my friends. And I've seen families, I talked to families. Still, 108 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 2: I just it just this may not have even been 109 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: the Black Swan event, right, we think of this black 110 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: Swan event, this really contagious virus, which this was, but 111 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: something that has a two to three percent mortality that 112 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: would be awful, That would be the Black Swan event. 113 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 2: This wasn't even that. There were countries around the world 114 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: that immediately quelled this and measure their debts in the 115 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 2: hundreds instead of the hundreds of thousands. Having said that, 116 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: we are a society. Because we are, we focus on 117 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: touchdowns and home runs and knockouts. We don't care much 118 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 2: for singles and doubles. Because we're that society. We waited 119 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 2: for science to rescue us, and the vaccines will. I 120 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 2: think they're really extraordinary and really effective. They seem to 121 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 2: be pretty effective against the variant u B one one seven, 122 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: the UK variant, because there's a lot of concern about 123 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: that very but if you have been vaccinated, or if 124 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 2: you had the infection in the past, the other you know, 125 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: the circulating coronavirus that should also protect you. So it's 126 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: really I think it's really good. And I think with 127 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: the warmer, warmer weather in the summer, viral transmission rates 128 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: will go down. That'll be great. I do think, you know, 129 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: we'll probably get to herd immunity over the summer, but 130 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: it's worth reminding that herd immunity isn't a sort of 131 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: destination necessarily. You can pop in and out of herd immunity. 132 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: So if not enough people get vaccinated over the next 133 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: few months, then going into the colder weather again in 134 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 2: the fall, we could see resurgences. 135 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: It's quite disturbing when you hear about the people who 136 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: are refusing to get vaccinated. Many of them are white 137 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: men in this country. I think you see the impact 138 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: of politics on that number, not only in terms of 139 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: the response to the pandemic, but now to the response 140 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: to the vaccines. That must be quite disturbing for you too, 141 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: it is for me. 142 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean there's been no not a single part 143 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: of this entire pandemic that hasn't been politicized in some way. 144 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: I mean, that's I guess now you say that in 145 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: April of twenty twenty one and it's obvious, right, everyone 146 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: knows that, but it starts starting off covering the story 147 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: and now all the way now to the vaccines, even 148 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: every single component has been politicized in some way. So 149 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 2: it is disturbing the anti VAXX movement. And you may 150 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 2: not even remember this, kiddie, but I actually did a 151 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 2: segment on your show years ago about anti vaccination movement 152 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: at that time, around h one and one. But it's 153 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: been around for a long time, the anti vaccination movement, 154 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 2: and it's sort of you know, Simmers, we saw measles 155 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: outbreaks in Brooklyn and Disneyland and Minnesota. 156 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: This seems bigger, though, Sancha. You know, that was a 157 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: particular group and it really dealt primarily with childhood vaccinations, 158 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: and now this has expanded to you know, these adults 159 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: who I don't know for one reason or another. I 160 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: think you can understand people of color and the terrible 161 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: history of Tuskegee and some of the ways that people 162 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: of color have been abused in scientific research in the past, 163 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 1: and this kind of deeply ingrained mistrust of the medical community. 164 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: So I think you can appreciate that. But this is, 165 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, this is a whole other ball of wax, 166 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: isn't it. 167 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 2: Yes, it really is. And you know we're seeing some 168 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: of this for or really seeing it come to light, 169 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 2: I should say, you know, in a pretty dramatic way. Now. 170 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: I think I was reading the statistics this morning Katie 171 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: Kaiser Family Foundation, forty to fifty percent of those in 172 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 2: rural areas who say they absolutely will not take the vaccine. 173 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: It's not a question of hey, I want more information, 174 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 2: I want to see how this plays out. They're just 175 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: saying out of the gate they absolutely not take it. 176 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: And I said, what is the explanation. 177 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: That's the curious thing, Like you said, with some people 178 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 2: who are vaccine hesitance, it is concerns about safety or 179 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 2: mistrust or you know, my grandfather was experimented on as 180 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 2: part of Tueski, you know, things like that. With this, 181 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: I think it's almost an extension of this pandemic. Isn't 182 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: even real. It's not a hoax. Why would I take 183 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 2: a vaccine for something that's a hoax. I'm not scared 184 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: for safety of it. I just don't. I think the 185 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 2: whole thing is sort of, you know, the scamdemic sort 186 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: of thing. So I don't know if that's the case. 187 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: For it's a huge percentage of people we're talking about here, 188 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: So maybe there's some heterogeneity, you know, some variety of 189 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: opinions there, but bottom line, if the numbers stay that high, 190 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 2: we're not going to get to herd immunity based on 191 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: vaccinating adults. 192 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: Alone, which is really depressing. 193 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 2: It's so I mean, gosh, we wait for science to 194 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: rescue us. We don't do the basic public health practice, 195 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: and then when this truly extraordinary scientific achievement occurs in 196 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 2: the form of this vaccine, people don't take it. You know, 197 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: if you are a Martian coming to planet Earth and saying, so, 198 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: let me get this straight. So you didn't do anything 199 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: about the virus, you weighted, created this amazing medicine, and 200 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: then you don't take the medicine. It just it doesn't 201 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 2: make any sense. 202 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: It's a head scratcher for sure. 203 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 204 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: When do you think Sancha will be able to go 205 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: about our daily lives without mass I. 206 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: Think it'll be the summer, Katie, I really do. I mean, 207 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 2: I know that there's people who are painting a more 208 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 2: dire prediction around that, but you know, we for no 209 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 2: other reason alone with the warmer weather, and then you're 210 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: going to really see the blunting despite the vaccine hesitancy 211 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:46,599 Speaker 2: that we're talking about. You are going to see a 212 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 2: significant blunting of people who are getting very sick, people 213 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 2: who are dying. And we know that the virus the 214 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 2: vaccine does seem to have good evidence that it stops 215 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,599 Speaker 2: or decreases transmission. So I think we're really going to 216 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 2: get to a pretty good point. I think you'll still 217 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 2: seeks around, you know, in Hong Kong after Hong Kong 218 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: really wasn't a mask wearing country until after SARS, and 219 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: then there was this huge psychological impact. That's why they 220 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 2: went to mass so early in Hong Kong, but they 221 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 2: became a mask wearing culture. I think you will see 222 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: people who are just frightened still want to wear masks 223 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 2: in public places. I think in flu season, you know, 224 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 2: the colder months, I think you'll see more masks. I 225 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: think that may become a larger part of our culture. 226 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,599 Speaker 2: Not a dominant, but I think a larger part of 227 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: our culture. 228 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: That's interesting because I remember being in Tokyo maybe gosh, gosh, 229 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: maybe ten ten or twelve years ago and going on 230 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: the train to Kyoto and seeing everyone wearing masks and 231 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: thinking this is so weird. Why are they wearing masks? 232 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: And now, of course I understand, and you're right. I 233 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: think when people are on places like public transportation, if 234 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: they're in a closed spaces with lots of strangers, it 235 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: actually makes sense, doesn't it. 236 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, one thing we saw, as you 237 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: may remember, is that the flu numbers were way down 238 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 2: this is past season, and that you know that that 239 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: wasn't because of any increase in vaccination or anything. That 240 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 2: was because of just public health behavior. It's always worked, 241 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 2: you know. I don't know there's a metaphor for this, Katie, right, 242 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,839 Speaker 2: I mean we I don't know. I guess it's true 243 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: in our lives, like we'd rather just take a pill 244 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 2: for weight loss rather than go exercise, and we always 245 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 2: want the convenience. And and this is this is another 246 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: example of that. We I was struck. And again, we 247 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 2: can talk about COVID all day long, but the but 248 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: the I'll never forget these these mask researchers from Harvard, 249 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 2: a guy named Aarbara Kuran. He basically was doing all 250 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 2: this modeling all along. We were talking to him. He 251 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: told me that if for four weeks and this is back, 252 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 2: you know, October November of last year. If for four 253 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: weeks everybody just wore a high filtration mask when they 254 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 2: went out in public, that's it. For four weeks. If 255 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 2: everybody did that, it would have ended the pandemic. 256 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: Are you kidding? That's incredible. 257 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 2: The virus would have nowhere to go. It couldn't find 258 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 2: a willing host. I mean, you know, sort of that 259 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 2: sort of concept is something that's more than one hundred 260 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: years old. I just don't quite you know, I don't know. 261 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 2: Maybe I'm just being naive. But you hear that and 262 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 2: you think it's amazing, right, I think it's amazing. And 263 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: yet we also know both of us that in the 264 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: United States that couldn't happen. It just wouldn't happen. I mean, 265 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 2: a human being survived and thrived as a species because 266 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: we're reciprocally altruistic. There's a reason that it feels good 267 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: to do good. Why should it feel good when I 268 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: do something nice for you? I mean, what purpose does 269 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 2: that serve my evolutionary tree? I don't know, But the 270 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: reality is that it does feel good to do good. 271 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 2: We encoded that in some way in our DNA, and 272 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 2: then people can't be bothered to wear a mask to 273 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: save tens of thousands of lives. I just I'll that 274 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: may be one of the greatest mysteries of all out 275 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: of this whole thing. 276 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: Well, I just want to say, on behalf of the 277 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: American public, thank you for your coverage of this. I 278 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: think you're so measured and so eloquent and honestly calming 279 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: in a way. And I just really appreciate all the 280 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: fantastic reporting you've done throughout this pandemic. So on, behalf 281 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: of a grateful America, I would like to say, thank you, 282 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: Sancha Gufta. 283 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: Well, Katie, thank you, thank you, And that obviously means 284 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: a great deal in particular coming from you, So I 285 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: appreciate that. You know, you get it. You know, I 286 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 2: mean you are the standard obviously by whom we all 287 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: measure ourselves. But also you know, we're all in these 288 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 2: black holes, right I mean, I don't know where you 289 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: are right now. As I said, I'm in this tiny 290 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 2: little closet. You don't get any feedback. Sometimes it's been 291 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: really dispiriting because you think, Okay, I'm a medical reporter 292 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: in the middle of a pandemic. That is my you know, 293 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: that's a job, and at the same time, the country 294 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: in which I'm reporting arguably did the worst in the world. 295 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I know I keep taking this in that direction, 296 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 2: but it's just so dispiriting. Did anyone listen to me? 297 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: I mean, if you're the medical reporter and presumably people 298 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: are counting on you to provide knowledge hopefully that will 299 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: inform how they behave, and then we do the worst 300 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 2: in the world. That's you know, I'm going to need 301 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 2: to reflect on that. I think, you know, in the 302 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: years to come, Like what is the real impact here? 303 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: One could argue that maybe it would have been worse, 304 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: who knows, you know, but it's pretty bad. 305 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: Well, don't get too dispirited, because I think a lot 306 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: of people listened, relied on you, and actually acted. So 307 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: even though the track record was bad, your information was 308 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: good and important. So thank you. 309 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: I appreciate that. 310 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: Let's talk about sharp because moving forward, I think many 311 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: people like me really are interested in how to keep 312 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: our cognitive and mental health at the top. And I think, 313 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: you know, certainly one big change in medicine is that 314 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: we as patients are not passive. It turns out, Sanjay, 315 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: that there is a lot of things that we can 316 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,239 Speaker 1: do to keep our brains in shape, just like we 317 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: can do to keep our bodies and our organs and 318 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: other things in shape. And that's why you broke keep sharp. 319 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: But you have a very very personal connection to this, 320 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: I guess well, obviously because of your specialty, but particularly 321 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 1: about Alzheimer's dementia and our failing brain power that happens 322 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: as we age. Tell me about that. 323 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 2: Well, when I was twelve or thirteen years old, my grandfather, 324 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: my mother's dad, who I was very close to, developed, 325 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: you know, signs of dementia. He had had a stroke 326 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 2: earlier in his life that had recovered and was now developing. 327 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: You know, just these these periods of time where he 328 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 2: really wasn't aware of what was going on. He would 329 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: sometimes make a joke that no one else was in on, 330 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: you know, and it was all these things that I 331 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 2: remember really being struck by as a kid, because you 332 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: look at adults and you're not used to seeing brain 333 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: power start to diminish. And it was the first time 334 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: I saw really specific things like he could he could 335 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 2: still write, but he couldn't really read. It was it 336 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: was all these things that became really fascinating in a 337 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 2: way for me in terms of just how does the 338 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: brain work like that? But also to see it in 339 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: a loved one to wonder, is that, how genetic? Is that? That? 340 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 2: Is my mom going to develop those symptoms? Will I 341 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: one day all of that? And then you know, fast forward, 342 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 2: you know, thirty forty years later, and we're still worrying 343 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 2: about the exact same things and haven't really made a 344 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: lot of progress in terms of being able to deal 345 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: with that. So that was a large part of what 346 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 2: I think inspired me to write the book What has 347 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 2: Happened over the Last forty years, both from a, you know, 348 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 2: a pharmaceutical standpoint, but also more importantly, I think from 349 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 2: a lifestyle behavioral standpoint in terms of what we. 350 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: Know and how does that influence you to go into neurology? 351 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 2: No, you know, it's funny, it didn't. I Actually when 352 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: I started medical school, I thought I was going to 353 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 2: go into pediatrics, and then I did a neurosurgery rotation 354 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 2: during my third year of med school and I just 355 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 2: sort of fell in love. So I came to it 356 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 2: quite late, but I was always interested in the brain 357 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: because of my grandfather, and so it felt like a 358 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 2: very natural fit. 359 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the numbers. Because forty seven million Americans 360 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: have some of and so a pre clinical Alzheimer's disease, 361 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: and by twenty sixty one new case of dementia will 362 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: be diagnosed every four seconds. Sonjay, what the heck is 363 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: going on here? 364 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: Well, this will become the most dominant neurodegenerative disease of 365 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 2: our time. I think that part, I think is pretty 366 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 2: well established at this point. But there was two things 367 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: about the statement that you just made that I thought 368 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 2: were really important in terms of what we could potentially 369 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 2: do about it. As you point out, there's probably about 370 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 2: forty seven million people who if you were to look 371 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: at their brains, they would have objective evidence of plaques 372 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 2: and tangles and things like that, but also have no symptoms. 373 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: That's the pre clinical time, right. 374 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: So, Okay, you're breaking me out a little. 375 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 2: Well, it's you know, but I think this is ultimately 376 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 2: good news, and I'll tell you why. If you look 377 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 2: at patients with Alzheimer's disease and able to retrospectively look 378 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 2: at their lives and their skins in their brains, you 379 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: find we now know that Alzheimer's starts in the brain 380 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 2: decades before people develop symptoms decades so you're starting to 381 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: see the kindling and then even plaques and tangles. But 382 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 2: the fundamental point that neuroscientists really started to focus on 383 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 2: was almost the the the analog of that meaning, Okay, 384 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: so now you've established it, you can have a brain 385 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 2: that has plaques and tangles but still functions normally. So 386 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 2: why don't we focus on that side of things instead 387 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 2: of saying, hey, look, let's get rid of the plaques 388 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 2: and tangles. And we have spent billions of dollars testing 389 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 2: drugs to do that that haven't really worked. What if 390 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 2: we say, instead, we have established that a brain with 391 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 2: plaques and tangles can function normally. Let's figure out why 392 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 2: and see if we can basically make that an aspiration. 393 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: Do you still have objective evidence of Alzheimer's in your brain? Yes? 394 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: Is it consequential no? Because you know you are able 395 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 2: to still have normal cognitive function, memory, judgment, all the 396 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 2: things that you associate with a healthy functioning brain. The metaphor, 397 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 2: in some ways, Katie would kind of be like a 398 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: heart bypass surgery. You got a block blood vessel. Now 399 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 2: you go in there and you bypass that area of 400 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: the blockage with a new blood vessel, Do you still 401 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 2: have heart disease? Yes? Is it causing you some dysfunction? No, 402 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: because you're getting enough blood flow now to the heart. 403 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 2: If you can think about that same metaphor for the brain, Yes, 404 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 2: you have plaques, but there's so many ways to build 405 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,959 Speaker 2: all these new pathways in the brain to your destination 406 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 2: that little blockages due to the plaques becoming consequential. 407 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: So is there a tipping point? You know, you talk 408 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,479 Speaker 1: about these tangles and plaques in your brain. Is it 409 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: just a slow growth of plaque or slow accumulation of 410 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: plaque and increase kind of tangles that then lead you 411 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: from being perfectly functional? You know, maybe some memory issues 412 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: right that once in a while, you know, you're not 413 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: quite as sharp as you were as you when you 414 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: were younger. But where you kind of fall off or 415 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: it's just gradual build up of this gunk in your brain. 416 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 2: Well, it does seem to be a pretty gradual build up, 417 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 2: and you can tolerate a significant amount of build up 418 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: before you I guess, as you say fall off, you know, 419 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 2: so what exactly then pushes people over? It's not all 420 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 2: of a sudden you have an exponentially more plaque, and 421 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 2: that leads to the problem. Maybe for different people it's 422 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 2: a different inflection point. But the brain is actually quite resilient. 423 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 2: I mean, that's the thing that came out of this. 424 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 2: Even with a lot of plaque and tangle, you could 425 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 2: actually be doing fairly well. I mean, the occasional memory lapse, 426 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: like you say, which is probably due more to inattention 427 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,959 Speaker 2: than even anything organic in the brain, but other than that, 428 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 2: doing pretty well. And you see societies around the world 429 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 2: where arguably brain function not only is it good, it 430 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 2: may be improving as you get older. 431 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: Which is so incredible, and that I think is one 432 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: of the hopeful things about this book, that our brains 433 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: can get sharper and better as we age, and dementia 434 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: is not necessarily an inevitable consequence of old age. So 435 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: you know, I remember reading Sanjay, how your brain like 436 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: by the time you're twenty three or twenty four, and 437 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: then your pre frontal lobe and all this thing that 438 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: has to stuff that has to do with judgment, Like, 439 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: after that, your brain really stops absorbing and growing and changing. 440 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: I mean that was sort of what I always thought, 441 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: And then it was downhill from there. But this book 442 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: is really cause for celebration in some ways, right. 443 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, you know I was told the same thing. Right, 444 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: You've got a certain number of neurons in your brain, 445 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: and then you're going to drain the cash as you 446 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 2: go through life. Certain things like drinking alcohol and things 447 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 2: like that are gonna kill more brain cells. You're never 448 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 2: going to get them back. 449 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: I think that's what our parents told us to keep 450 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: us from shrink king. 451 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: It works well to some extent, but the uh, you 452 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 2: know it, but that that part of it is not true, 453 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 2: and that may be one of the most fundamental new 454 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: things that we learned. And by the way, you'll appreciate this, Katie, 455 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 2: I'm in some ways this book. I'm acting as translator. 456 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: I go to these neuroscience meetings because that you know, 457 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 2: I live this bifurcated life between medicine and media. But 458 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 2: I'm still going to these neuroscience meetings and they're talking 459 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 2: about these fascinating developments, and yet that hasn't really gotten 460 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 2: to the lay public yet. So it's about a ten 461 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 2: year gap. In some ways, keep sharpest to just accelerate 462 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 2: that that knowledge tree. But one of the things that 463 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 2: they've been talking about is exactly what you mentioned, which 464 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: is neurogenesis. Everyone's heard of neuroplasticity, which basically means you 465 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 2: can recruit neurons brain cells from other areas of the 466 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 2: brain to do new functions. This is actually growing new 467 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 2: brain cells, and we were told throughout our lives that 468 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: it basically happened twice. You know, when you were a 469 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 2: baby and your brain was still forming, and maybe after 470 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 2: an injury like a stroke or a traumatic brain injury, 471 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: there may be a process of neurogenesis that occurs. But 472 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: what these neuroscientists have really been writing about and focused 473 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 2: on for some time is that at any age, a 474 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: healthy brain can continue to grow new brain cells. You 475 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 2: really can't say that about any other organ in the body. 476 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: So it's quite incredible. The stem cell surges, the various 477 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 2: growth factors, all these things that converge to allow you 478 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 2: to grow new brain cells at any age. That to 479 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 2: me was deeply inspiring. 480 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: It's super exciting. But let me just backtrack for one moment, 481 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: just so I understand the difference between neuroplasticity and neurogenesis. 482 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: Explain it like I'm a fifth grader, So. 483 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 2: You know, when you think of neuroplasticity, it's more like 484 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: your brain is like plastic it's it's can be molded. 485 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: So let's say there's been an area of your brain 486 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 2: where someone had an injury or a stroke or something. 487 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 2: You could sort of mold another part of the brain 488 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 2: to fill the game compensate, compensate, yeah, exactly, you know. 489 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 2: Take so if it was motor strength, for example, on 490 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 2: the right side of your body that was affected, cells 491 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 2: brain cells that normally don't do motor function, they're not 492 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: responsible for motor function, could be recruited to do that 493 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 2: sort of work. Or a sense. You know, even if 494 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 2: you lose a sense, other senses can start to become 495 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 2: heightened or even create. 496 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 3: Right. 497 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 1: You hear that with blind people, you know, in terms 498 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: of a heightened sense of I guess all kinds of senses, right, 499 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: that compensate for the fact that you can't. 500 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: See exactly, and that and that is a that is 501 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 2: a It's an amazing concept. It's what sort of gives 502 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 2: real birth to physical therapy, to cognitive therapy. We're using 503 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 2: these therapies to basically recruit neurons from other parts of 504 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 2: your brain to do something. 505 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: Body is so amazing isn't it. 506 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 2: It continues to wonder and delight me every day. And 507 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: I've been thinking about this for forty years, you know, 508 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: I love it. Neurogenesis is the growth of new brain cells. 509 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 2: So this, this, this lies in the face of what 510 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 2: we were all told when we were young, that you 511 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 2: only have a certain number of brain cells and that's it. 512 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 2: This is basically saying you can create new brain cells 513 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 2: at any age. The metaphor I think that may make 514 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 2: it more more accessible is right now, our COVID life 515 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 2: is kind of like how our brain operates. And what 516 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 2: I mean is that you probably are at home. You 517 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: may drive to the grocery store, maybe you drive to 518 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 2: a couple of different places and you but you're not 519 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 2: You're mostly in just a small, small square sort of 520 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 2: area of place. You know how to get to all 521 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 2: those places really well. You could drive there with your 522 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: eyes closed, no problem. But you you're not traveling around 523 00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: the rest of the world. You're not even traveling around 524 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: the to the state. Right now, that's kind of how 525 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: our brains are. We use our whole brain, but ninety 526 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: percent of the time we're using ten percent of our brains. 527 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 2: That's the thing. If you start to actually do things 528 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: to inspire neurogenesis in your brain. It's kind of like 529 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: building new cities and visiting those new cities in your brain. 530 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: It's a little bit of a simplistic metaphor, but it 531 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 2: makes me really happy to think about, because visiting other 532 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 2: places in your brain is an incredibly joyous thing. You 533 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: start to see patterns that you would have otherwise missed. 534 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 2: You connect dots, you're thinking is clearer, and that's the 535 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 2: whole concept of what neurogenesis can do for you. 536 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: When we come back Sanch's advice on how to keep 537 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: our brains strong, especially as we age, well, take me 538 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: on a trip, okay, and how can I visit these 539 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: new places in my brain? Because this is really exciting 540 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: And I know your book has a lot of recommendations 541 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: for ways that we can encourage neurochemphasists. 542 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 3: So what do I do, Sanjay? 543 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so you know, the way I'll tell you 544 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: the way that I wrote the book was I took 545 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 2: all these these neuroscience concepts and try to make them 546 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 2: accessible and also help you set up a substrate for 547 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 2: your brain in terms of you know, how you nourish yourself, 548 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 2: how you rest your brain things like that. So the 549 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: basics are there, but your question is more about taking 550 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 2: the trip and building the new brain cells. So after 551 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 2: you sort of, you know, make sure and it's not 552 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 2: challenging to get to the right sort of place in 553 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 2: terms of your diet, you know, and and the amount 554 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 2: of rest that you need. That's important. But the biggest 555 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 2: I think difference with growing new brain cells versus how 556 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 2: we typically think about strengthening our brain is that you 557 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 2: don't necessarily want to just keep doing the same things 558 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 2: over and over again. The whole practice makes perfect sort 559 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 2: of teaching, the kill and drill sort of teaching that 560 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 2: a lot of schools focus on. It's important to understand 561 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 2: and be able to learn concepts. But that's kind of 562 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 2: like those roads I was talking about that you travel 563 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 2: so well, that's like getting even better at traveling those 564 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 2: same roads. Now you can really do it with your 565 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 2: eyes closed. Now you know, it's totally second nature to you. 566 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: But if you were to do different things, totally different things, 567 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 2: things that get you out of your comfort zone a 568 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 2: little bit and a totally different sort of hobby, that's 569 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 2: when you're starting to actually build some of these new 570 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 2: brain cells, create some of these new cities create some 571 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 2: of the new roads, whatever metaphor you want to apply 572 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 2: to it. That's a much better way to sort of 573 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 2: do that versus the practice makes perfect. So if practice 574 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 2: makes perfect, change is what's going to build the neurogenesis. 575 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 2: It's going to be the resilience and redundancy in your brain. 576 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: So I played the piano. Should I not focus as 577 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: much on the piano? Because I thought about taking lessons 578 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: even though I took for ten years and I played 579 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: by ear. 580 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 3: But I enjoyed the piano. 581 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: And we actually have a beautiful piano that Jay and 582 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: I bought each other for. 583 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 3: Our birthdays back in the day. 584 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, but should I learn how to play the guitar 585 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: or the viol of the violin sounds just horrible if 586 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: you're not good at it. But what I mean, should 587 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: I try a new instrument? 588 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 2: Yeah? You know. So I asked a lot of neuroscientists 589 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 2: about this, because one thing about writing a book like 590 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 2: this is that it affects everybody. Right, So even the 591 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 2: guys and gals who are doing all this research, they're 592 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 2: thinking about what to incorporate into their own lives. And 593 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: there are a couple of things that sort of jumped 594 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: out at me. One is that something new is I 595 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: think really important. That is a key, but something that 596 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 2: you can also use your hands with that you're actually 597 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 2: activating your motor cortex as you're doing, seems to be 598 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: even more benefit. So an instrument is great painting, Try 599 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 2: a new one because a new one, yes, I mean 600 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 2: I mean the piano again. I want to be careful here. 601 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 2: I did this Bill Clinton. I was talking to him 602 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: about brain health the other day and he got on 603 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 2: my case because he said he loves crossword puzzles. And 604 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 2: he's like, so you tell me crossword puzzles are not 605 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 2: good for No. No, I'm not saying don't do those things, 606 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 2: but understand what you're accomplishing. You are you are. You're 607 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 2: paving those roads really really well in your brain, and 608 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 2: that is great. There's great value in that. But if 609 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 2: it is true that you can build all these new roads, 610 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 2: and the question you're asking me is how to do that, 611 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 2: then it would be it would mean doing something different. 612 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 2: So I'm not saying stop playing the piano, keep driving 613 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 2: those roads, but if you want to start going on 614 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 2: these trips around your brain, doing something different and preferably 615 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 2: doing it in a way that may be even a 616 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 2: little uncomfortable. So if you're painting, and I just bring 617 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 2: up painting, because this is the one that came up 618 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 2: several times among these neuroscientists. Learn how to paint. I'm 619 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 2: a terrible artist. Learn how to paint. Do whatever you can, 620 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 2: and do it with your non dominant hand. Do it 621 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 2: with your yes. This was another. In fact, they went 622 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 2: so far as to say that tonight at dinner, when 623 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 2: you're eating your dinner, try eating your meal with your 624 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,959 Speaker 2: non dominant hand and just see what happens. And it's 625 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 2: really interesting, Katie, because we think of building the brain 626 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 2: means reading books and gaining new knowledge, and that's true, 627 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 2: but in terms of actually creating neurogenesis, it's more like 628 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: you think about a physical workout. I'm going to do 629 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 2: something different, and I'm going to actually now focus the 630 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 2: left side of my brain, which normally isn't doing motor 631 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 2: function that's delicate or fine. On actually doing that sort 632 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 2: of stuff. It has real relevance because again, you're you're 633 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 2: actually building these roads in these cities in your brain, 634 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: and that's fun. Try it. It's fun, but on a 635 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 2: more practical level. To your original question, Let's say one 636 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 2: day the road that you drive so well becomes blocked 637 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,720 Speaker 2: by one of these amyloid plaques that we're talking about, 638 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 2: some of these tangles. Right now, you know that road 639 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 2: really well, but you know what, you don't really have 640 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 2: other roads to get from point A to point B. 641 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 2: If you've been building all these roads by painting with 642 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 2: your left hand and spilling your food, by eating with 643 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,720 Speaker 2: your non dominant hand, whatever it might be, you're actually 644 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 2: building roads. This gets back to the bypass analogy. Do 645 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 2: you still have clacks entangles in your brain? Yes? 646 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 1: So are these the cognitive reserves that you're talking about, Yes. 647 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 2: The cognitive reserves, the cognitive resiliency, which is often they 648 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 2: often use these terms interchangeably, but that's exactly it. We 649 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,760 Speaker 2: have the capacity to have significant cognitive reserve. We're barely 650 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 2: tapping into that. If you look at societies around the 651 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 2: world where people are living into their nineties and hundreds 652 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 2: and have hardly any dementia, the presumption now is that 653 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: if you were to image their brains, they might have 654 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 2: plaques and tangles. If you were doing autopsy, they may 655 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 2: be diagnosed with Alzheimer's because that's how Alzheimer's was diagnosed 656 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 2: was that autopsy. But the truth of the matter is 657 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 2: that during their lives they had perfectly normal cognitive function. 658 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: Before we talk about your twelve week program, I'm just 659 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:17,959 Speaker 1: curious in terms of diagnostic advances and therapeutic advances. I mean, 660 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: will we get to a point where someone can have 661 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: a brain scan and say, Okay, here's the status of 662 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: your tangles and plaques, and. 663 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 3: Here's what you need to do. 664 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: Because brain imagery, you know, I always found it so interesting, 665 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: even when you talk about like antidepressants and you know, 666 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: serotonin reuptake inhibitors or whatever they're called ss rise. Yeah, 667 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: that you know, there was never a way until recently 668 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: to kind of measure how the brain was reacting. They 669 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: would just kind of it would be very anecdotal, you 670 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: kind of throw it against the wall to see what sticks. 671 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: And now we have so much better brain imagery. So 672 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: will that translate into dimension Alzheimer's and preventative strategies that 673 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: we could follow. 674 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 2: I think so. I mean, we're making a lot of 675 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 2: progress on brain imaging, and you're absolutely right. I mean, 676 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 2: the brain has long been sort of considered this black box, 677 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,720 Speaker 2: only measured by its inputs and its outputs. You really 678 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 2: couldn't get a good idea of its internal machinery, but 679 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 2: now we can. I mean, I don't know that we're 680 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 2: at the point yet where we can determine degree of 681 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 2: severity of dementia based on a scan. And as I say, 682 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 2: I think we will. 683 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 3: You think we'll get to that point though. 684 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:33,879 Speaker 2: I think we'll get to the point where we can 685 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 2: very quantifiably measure the burden of plaques and tangles and 686 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 2: other things in the brain. But again, what I think 687 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 2: is so extraordinary, Katie, is that you could have two 688 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 2: people with the exact same scan essentially and very different 689 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 2: clinical pictures. One person may be completely debilitated, obviously having dementia, 690 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:59,959 Speaker 2: and the other person maybe functionally cognitively normal. Right, And again, 691 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,439 Speaker 2: I look, do I I don't want to I don't 692 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 2: want to have blackx entangles in my brain, But mostly 693 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 2: what I don't want to have is the cognitive dysfunction 694 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 2: that comes with that. It's a different way of thinking. 695 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:13,800 Speaker 2: It really is, like I think, again, we focus so 696 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 2: much on making someone's images look better or whatever, and 697 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 2: what the person really wants is them to be better, 698 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 2: and there are ways to do that you know, with 699 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,879 Speaker 2: lifestyle changes. I mean, I'm a neurosurgeon saying this. By 700 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 2: the way, just remember that because I'm a specialist. That's 701 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 2: that's what I was trained to do. And yet I'm 702 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 2: now becoming increasingly convinced that these types of changes that 703 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 2: we talk about in this book really can can prevent 704 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 2: you from developing the symptoms of dimasasion. 705 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: I was going to say, so you're saying that brain 706 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: scans are just part of the story. It's sort of 707 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,919 Speaker 1: like it's half of the story because even with them, 708 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:56,399 Speaker 1: you could have these cognitive reserves developed and be very asymptomatic. Well, 709 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: let's talk about this twelve week program. Sharp take us 710 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: through the steps, because I'm all ears. 711 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 2: It's it's twelve weeks where I basically based on how 712 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 2: I think your brain is going to change and react 713 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,359 Speaker 2: to things that you're now doing that are different or new. 714 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 2: It all sort of builds on itself. I start off 715 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 2: by really making sure you get the basics right, and 716 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 2: I'll tell you it's not that complicated. There are a 717 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 2: few big messages in terms of the overall getting it 718 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 2: the substrate right, and as you might guess, diet nourishment 719 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 2: is one of them. But the big takeaway here is 720 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 2: I think generally people know what a healthy diet is, 721 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 2: and for those who don't, there's some information in there 722 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 2: about what's specifically healthy for the brain. There are some 723 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 2: distinctions between the brain and the body in this regard. 724 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,720 Speaker 2: One is sugar. You know, we talk a lot about sugar, 725 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 2: and people know that they shouldn't need too much sugar. 726 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 2: We used to get sugar, you know, twice a year 727 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 2: when fruit fell from the trees. Even honey was protected 728 00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 2: by the bees. And now we're eating one hundred and 729 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,879 Speaker 2: thirty a year on average of sugar. But what was 730 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 2: a learning point for me was that the brain is 731 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 2: exquisitely sensitive to sugar. So typically you eat a lot 732 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 2: of sugar and you think, well, that's being absorbed in 733 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 2: the cells. I have a lot of energy, whatever it 734 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 2: might be. These these are a lot of calories that 735 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 2: are now providing me energy the brain. As soon as 736 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 2: sugar levels get beyond a certain point, and it's a 737 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 2: pretty narrow range, the receptors basically shut down. So you 738 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 2: could run into a situation where you're taking in a 739 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 2: lot of calories, a lot of energy and starving your 740 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 2: brain at the same time, and that is a situation 741 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 2: that leads to a whole cascade of events that you 742 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 2: can pretty easily avoid. So that's, you know, as much 743 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 2: as I talk about in the first few weeks of 744 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 2: what to do, there are several things that you're told 745 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 2: not to do just to avoid, and that's that's more 746 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 2: than half the battle, and they're not that hard to do. 747 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 2: I also try to make the case for things like sleep, 748 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 2: which you've read a lot about I've read a lot about, 749 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 2: but reminding people just how metabolically active the brain is 750 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 2: during sleep, and this wonderful conversation that I'm having with 751 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 2: you right now will be encoded into my hippocampus if 752 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 2: I get good sleep tonight, so that twenty years from 753 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 2: now I can recall this and remember it. A lot 754 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 2: of times people say that they can't remember something. It's 755 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 2: not that they can't remember that, it's not that they 756 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 2: forgot it, it's that they never actually stored it in 757 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 2: their memory centers in the first place. So these are 758 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 2: strategies to help that. But then, you know, sort of 759 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 2: the midpoint of the book is really about the evidence 760 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 2: based things that we know improve brain health. Starts off 761 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 2: by asking you to define what you think a healthy 762 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 2: brain is? What is a healthy brain? We know what 763 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 2: a healthy heart is. It pumps a certain amount of 764 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,840 Speaker 2: blood out with each beat. What is a healthy brain? 765 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 2: You know? And I spend a little bit of time 766 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 2: talking through talking to the reader through how they define that, 767 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 2: because it is different for different people. Robert Sapolski, who 768 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 2: is this evolutionary biologist, I was interviewing him, and he 769 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 2: and her forget. He said to me that a healthy 770 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 2: brain is a is A is a brain that has 771 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 2: a bigger circle of you is what he said, which 772 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 2: basically means you let more people into your circle. Now 773 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,359 Speaker 2: why is that relevant? Well, it's relevant and you know 774 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,800 Speaker 2: ancient times because you are more likely to be protected 775 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 2: by the group. But now it's this idea of what 776 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 2: true connection does for protection of the brain. And and 777 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 2: and now to your earlier point, measurable. You know, a 778 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 2: lot of what we talk about is based on objective 779 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,840 Speaker 2: data that we couldn't collect some time ago. But I 780 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 2: will tell you something fascinating because I find this topic 781 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 2: really interesting. But there's this loneliness researcher named Stephanie Cacciopa. 782 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 2: She's an Oregon. 783 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: I know, I know, she's in Chicago. Her husband was 784 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: one of the preeminent scientists about memory, and then he died. 785 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 2: I died, I know. And now she's an organ and 786 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 2: I talked to her from time to time. It's been tough, 787 00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 2: as you might imagine. And she's by herself an organ 788 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 2: which you know, as a loneliness researcher through this pandemic 789 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 2: has been such a significant thing for her. But she 790 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,200 Speaker 2: said this thing to me that I'll never forget, and 791 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 2: and I talk a little bit about it in the book, 792 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 2: which is we talk about connection, Like right now you 793 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 2: and I get to zoom and have this call about 794 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,239 Speaker 2: you know, this this conversation that's very interesting to me. 795 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 2: Most connections that we have with friends, maybe even family 796 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 2: to some extent, are pretty cursory. How you doing, I'm 797 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 2: doing fine, How you doing, I'm doing fine? You know, 798 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,919 Speaker 2: it's how do you get to a level of more 799 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 2: profound connection, because it wasn't. As you've well heard, it's 800 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 2: not about the number of connections you have. It's about 801 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 2: the quality. But what does that mean quality? And one 802 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 2: thing Stephanie said to me was a sort of shortcut 803 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 2: to building the quality and the high intensity connection is 804 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 2: to be vulnerable to ask for help, to share your problems, 805 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 2: which is totally counterintuitive to how I think about things. 806 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 2: I would rather not burden somebody with things. But I 807 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 2: took it to heart, and I was talking to my parents, 808 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,840 Speaker 2: who are in their late seventies in Florida through this pandemic, 809 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 2: and we were having those conversations how you do and 810 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 2: how the girls? That was the conversation for months, and 811 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,839 Speaker 2: I said to them, I asked them a question about 812 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:13,880 Speaker 2: a problem I was having one of my cars, that 813 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 2: my wife's car had some smoke coming from the hood. 814 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 2: They're both engineers, and for days, Katie, we started to 815 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 2: have these really interesting conversations about cars, about their history 816 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 2: of being interested in engineering and all this stuff. Figure 817 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 2: out the way to build the meaningful connection that is 818 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 2: that is probably one of the most critical points, and 819 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 2: there are pretty easy ways to do it. 820 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: I think the point is connection, deep connection is good 821 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,399 Speaker 1: for your brain, yes, and good for you, and I 822 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,800 Speaker 1: think you know it's good for you in general. 823 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,719 Speaker 2: So the last part of the twelve week program, I'll 824 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 2: just tell you quickly, is more about what we started 825 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,880 Speaker 2: talking about initially, which is, then, how do you create 826 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 2: Now that I've primed your brain for neurogenesis, giving you 827 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,279 Speaker 2: all right amounts of the right hormones, not too much epinephrine, 828 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 2: but enough oxytocin, and all that sort of is happening 829 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 2: by going through the first few weeks of the program. Now, 830 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 2: how do you build the new brain cells? And that 831 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 2: gets to a lot of what we were talking about 832 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 2: in terms of that cognitive reserve, you know, actually doing 833 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,400 Speaker 2: these different types of activities, doing similar activities in a 834 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,879 Speaker 2: totally different way, doing things with different people, doing them 835 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 2: in at different times, eliminating certain things completely from your 836 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,320 Speaker 2: regimen for a while, adding in something totally unrelated. It 837 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 2: was fascinating to me. I tried it. I based this 838 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 2: entire thing on my conversations with these neuroscientists who all 839 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,719 Speaker 2: tried it and written about it and published it in journals. 840 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:44,720 Speaker 2: It's fun. It's a fun ride. 841 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 1: I was going to say, So give me some ideas 842 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 1: real quickly before we go about things I could do. 843 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 1: Should I take a pottery class, Should I learn Italian? 844 00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,279 Speaker 3: Should I pick up the guitar? What should I do? 845 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 2: I think that you know, I think the two big 846 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,360 Speaker 2: and greens. It's got to be something you really haven't done. Before. 847 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,439 Speaker 2: This isn't about trying to again build a two lane 848 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 2: highway where you're used to driving one. This is about 849 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 2: getting to Italy instead of staying in New York or 850 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 2: going somewhere even different, Argentina, you know, totally different. If 851 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,840 Speaker 2: you can do something that involves your hands, like pottery 852 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 2: or painting, even better, that was something that came up 853 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,320 Speaker 2: over and over again. And then the second ingredient I guess, 854 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 2: and this is a little bit more vague, is that 855 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,239 Speaker 2: it's good if it makes you a little uncomfortable. And 856 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 2: I know that sounds almost euphemistic or too easy or 857 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 2: too simple, but the whole point is that when you 858 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:45,279 Speaker 2: start to release certain hormones in the body, like some 859 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,839 Speaker 2: stress hormone, stress can be good. It really helps that 860 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 2: process of neurogenesis. So a little bit of discomfort with 861 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 2: something totally new, preferably using your hands, that's a pretty 862 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 2: good prescription. 863 00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,360 Speaker 1: Before we go, can you tell me about foods that 864 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,760 Speaker 1: are healthy brain foods. I know that you hear about fish, 865 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,280 Speaker 1: you hear about nuts, you hear about extra virgin olive oil. 866 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,880 Speaker 3: Are all those things sort of good brain food? 867 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: And what else should I be eating other than staying 868 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: away from the cupcakes. 869 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, right, yes, definitely do the sugar thing I 870 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,560 Speaker 2: mentioned already, So, I mean that's just a I think 871 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,800 Speaker 2: you could accomplish seventy percent of all the other things 872 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:29,400 Speaker 2: by basically just eliminating added sugar from your diet. But 873 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,399 Speaker 2: I think the adage what is good for the heart 874 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,440 Speaker 2: is good for the brain remains true. But I think 875 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,880 Speaker 2: with the brain there are a few few distinctions. One is, 876 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 2: if an apple a day keeps a doctor away, then 877 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:46,239 Speaker 2: berries are what's good for the brain. Berries really good 878 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 2: data around berries. Really start to add berries into your diet. 879 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 2: I think that's one of the big ones. And while 880 00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,840 Speaker 2: most of the neuroscientists did not advocate a caloric restriction diet, 881 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,799 Speaker 2: necessarily a calorie reduced diet overall to the extent that 882 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,120 Speaker 2: you can do it. We create a lot of metabolic 883 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,919 Speaker 2: byproducts from overeating, and a lot of those metabolic by 884 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,799 Speaker 2: products get accumulated in the brain. So if you can 885 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,160 Speaker 2: cut down on the amount of energy that has to 886 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,480 Speaker 2: be metabolized in that way, you can make a lot 887 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 2: of progress. 888 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: Even though berries may be good for your brain, you 889 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,839 Speaker 1: don't believe in this whole idea of supplements or superfoods. 890 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 3: Do you no? 891 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 2: I you know, I think superfood first of all, is 892 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,760 Speaker 2: a really vaguely defined term. As part of this book, 893 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,279 Speaker 2: I asked a lot of people and I even talked 894 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,560 Speaker 2: to your friend Mark Hyman about this as well. It 895 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 2: doesn't have a really objective meaning. There are some foods 896 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 2: that are maybe better than others. But I think the 897 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,359 Speaker 2: thing about supplements that struck me was the idea that 898 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:50,399 Speaker 2: for certain people who have deficiencies, then supplementing that part 899 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,840 Speaker 2: of their diet's important. But you know, Katie, in this country, 900 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,800 Speaker 2: and I'm not advocating this, but in this country, even 901 00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,480 Speaker 2: the standard American diet, like if you go to a 902 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:04,200 Speaker 2: MacDonald even the food is largely fortified, you know, with 903 00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,560 Speaker 2: all these different vitamins and micronutrients and things like that. 904 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,719 Speaker 2: That is a decision that our USDA made decades ago 905 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:15,719 Speaker 2: to fortify food so that people wouldn't develop basic nutritional deficiencies. 906 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,319 Speaker 2: So oftentimes we're supplementing something that doesn't need to be supplemented. 907 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,279 Speaker 2: A lot of a lot of the approach is more 908 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 2: in terms of what you're not eating versus what you 909 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,759 Speaker 2: are eating, and that you know that holds up to 910 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,239 Speaker 2: be true, So berries I single out because they are 911 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,319 Speaker 2: one of these foods whose active ingredients are particularly good 912 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,800 Speaker 2: at crossing the blood brain barrier, particularly good at creating 913 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:42,000 Speaker 2: these scaffoldings, you know, for the neurogenesis that we talked 914 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 2: about earlier. So I put that high on the list. 915 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:47,840 Speaker 1: But what about you know, I see this stuff in 916 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:49,640 Speaker 1: the drug store and I'm like, Oh, should I be 917 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,440 Speaker 1: taking like prevagen or should I be taking what is 918 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,720 Speaker 1: it like? Almost isn't it like jellyfish derivatives and stuff? 919 00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 3: And I'm like, should I be doing that? 920 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,280 Speaker 2: Well? You know, the privilege in one is interesting because 921 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:05,719 Speaker 2: you know, Eric Candell is very involved with this, and 922 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 2: he's a very prominent neuroscientist. Did a lot of the 923 00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,680 Speaker 2: original jellyfish research, basically trying to figure out where the 924 00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 2: memory stores were in jellyfish, how jellyfish remembered, and isolating 925 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,320 Speaker 2: those stores and basically creating a supplement. It's a fascinating idea. 926 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,480 Speaker 2: I don't know that it really works. I mean, it's 927 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,360 Speaker 2: very hard to study this sort of thing. You know, 928 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,000 Speaker 2: it takes decades long studies to prove that something like 929 00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,799 Speaker 2: that's improving memory. What we do have is decades long 930 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 2: data on societies around the world where dementia is essentially 931 00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,840 Speaker 2: so rare that it's reportable. You know, if somebody developed dementia, 932 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,200 Speaker 2: you'd report that in the medical journal. But my point 933 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,000 Speaker 2: is though, that with these we don't need to have 934 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,240 Speaker 2: the supplements. We know it's possible to be done because 935 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 2: we see it having already transpired real time and large 936 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,960 Speaker 2: societies across the world. And in those societies, you know, 937 00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,239 Speaker 2: I took the neuroscientific data that we had and tried 938 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,279 Speaker 2: to see, are they in some ways applying that unwittingly? 939 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,319 Speaker 2: I mean, they didn't read these papers obviously, but were 940 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,880 Speaker 2: they sort of just by default essentially following that right diet, 941 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,280 Speaker 2: following that right amount of movement, following the right amount 942 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,480 Speaker 2: of rest. So movement, for example, I'll just tell you 943 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,840 Speaker 2: this was an interesting one. If you look at movement, 944 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,720 Speaker 2: it's probably the only thing that has has the longest 945 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 2: amount of evidence behind it in terms of actually creating neurogenesis. 946 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,520 Speaker 2: All of this is new research, but that's sort of 947 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,840 Speaker 2: the oldest new research. But what was fascinating to me 948 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:40,000 Speaker 2: was that what does movement mean to people? Right? I 949 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,920 Speaker 2: use the word movement instead of exercise, because what they 950 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,279 Speaker 2: found was that moderate movement, brisk walking, that tended to 951 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:52,880 Speaker 2: be a lot better for neurogenesis than intense exercise. Now 952 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,560 Speaker 2: why would that be Well, it turns out that when 953 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,759 Speaker 2: you briskly exercise, you're releasing a lot of what is 954 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,840 Speaker 2: known is brain derived neurotrophic factor. That's kind of like 955 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,480 Speaker 2: the miracle grow for your brain. As was described, if 956 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,400 Speaker 2: you are intensely exercising, you also tend to release a 957 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 2: lot of epinephrine. And epinephrine is actually a blocker, It's 958 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:18,600 Speaker 2: a cascade blocker of what BDNF, this neurotrophic factor does. 959 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,279 Speaker 2: I know, I'm throwing a lot of language at you, 960 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:21,360 Speaker 2: but that's okay. 961 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 3: I'm following. 962 00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,279 Speaker 2: Intense exercise may be great for your heart and you know, 963 00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,759 Speaker 2: maybe even weight loss, whatever your goals may be. But 964 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:34,400 Speaker 2: for your brain, intense exercise actually is not good. And 965 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,319 Speaker 2: you find that can actually be a little bit destructive 966 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,719 Speaker 2: by releasing these stress hormones that block the beneficial effects 967 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,399 Speaker 2: that exercise should have on your brain. I never knew that, 968 00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,520 Speaker 2: and it so like I think, I go for a 969 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,120 Speaker 2: walk as often as I can with Rebecca. Now that 970 00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,440 Speaker 2: wasn't something I did. I was out there thinking I 971 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,040 Speaker 2: got forty minutes, I'm going to go hard. That was 972 00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,759 Speaker 2: my sort of approach, and sometimes I still feel the 973 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 2: need to do that. But walking is great, brisk here's 974 00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:04,040 Speaker 2: the best way to do it. If you want to 975 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,560 Speaker 2: just make it for your brain. Take a brisk walk 976 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,959 Speaker 2: with a close friend or family member and talk about 977 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 2: your problems, and that sort of brings all these things 978 00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,600 Speaker 2: together in some ways that we've been talking about. Take 979 00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,719 Speaker 2: your you're very smoothie with you and you've pretty much 980 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:19,200 Speaker 2: nailed it. 981 00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,879 Speaker 1: I'm curious about social media and the way we live 982 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,600 Speaker 1: our lives. You know, we're constantly distracted, we have constant 983 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:32,080 Speaker 1: incoming information, Our attention spans have shortened. I read a 984 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,840 Speaker 1: fascinating study a while ago that said the part of 985 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,800 Speaker 1: your brain I think it's a hipocampus, you can correct 986 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:43,520 Speaker 1: me if i'm wrong, responsible for creativity. It only fires 987 00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,400 Speaker 1: up when you're bored, and that's why you have so 988 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,200 Speaker 1: many great ideas when you're in this shower, when you're 989 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,960 Speaker 1: not distracted, or when you're taking a long walk and 990 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:54,520 Speaker 1: you don't have your phone with you. 991 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:55,920 Speaker 3: And I'm curious the. 992 00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:01,280 Speaker 1: Impact of all this mental stimulus or stimulus lie has 993 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,960 Speaker 1: on neurogenesis and keeping our brains healthy. 994 00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, it's a great topic, and I approach it 995 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,200 Speaker 2: as a person who wrote this book frankly, also as 996 00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,160 Speaker 2: a dad of three teenage girls, because and this is 997 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,040 Speaker 2: conversation topic number one on our household all the time. 998 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,680 Speaker 2: And and I'll tell you two things that actually came 999 00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:23,520 Speaker 2: out of a dinner time conversation I recently had. And 1000 00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,400 Speaker 2: I try not to be too preachy with my girls, 1001 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,080 Speaker 2: although sometimes I can say I don't use this line often, 1002 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,120 Speaker 2: but I can say I did write a book about that. 1003 00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:33,840 Speaker 2: The girls hate it when I do that, but it's true, 1004 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:35,880 Speaker 2: and I can use that as a wild card to 1005 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,720 Speaker 2: actually get them to listen to what I'm saying about 1006 00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,640 Speaker 2: the fact that when you are distracted like that and 1007 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,680 Speaker 2: you think maybe even you are multitasking, the brain is 1008 00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:50,520 Speaker 2: actually not that good at multitasking. It actually requires a 1009 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,800 Speaker 2: lot of energy to shift back and forth between things, 1010 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,719 Speaker 2: between scrolling through your social media feed, trying to have 1011 00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,399 Speaker 2: a conversation, trying to look your dad in the eye 1012 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,120 Speaker 2: when he's talking to you, whatever it might be. It's 1013 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,960 Speaker 2: hard to transition back and forth between all these things. 1014 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,640 Speaker 2: We think we're being efficient and we're not because the 1015 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 2: amount of energy it takes to actually make the switch 1016 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:12,640 Speaker 2: is a lot higher than we realized. That's kind of 1017 00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,320 Speaker 2: novel thinking, because you know, it's always been about multitasking. 1018 00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:17,240 Speaker 2: How many things can I do at the same time. 1019 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,160 Speaker 2: But the second thing, which I think is, you know 1020 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,160 Speaker 2: I worry about the most, and I think is what 1021 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,080 Speaker 2: you're saying as well. Is that leaving aside just the 1022 00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,120 Speaker 2: content on social media for a second, and just the 1023 00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,200 Speaker 2: fact that it's so incessant, like you're saying, when we 1024 00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,800 Speaker 2: talk about stress and on the brain and on the body, 1025 00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,759 Speaker 2: stress in and of itself is not the enemy. I mean, 1026 00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,440 Speaker 2: in fact, we need stress. I was a little nervous 1027 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,000 Speaker 2: to do this podcast with you today because I have 1028 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:46,480 Speaker 2: so much respect for you. But it makes me a 1029 00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,759 Speaker 2: little stressed because I have that nervousness. But it's good. 1030 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:52,480 Speaker 2: I need that because I prepared for this. But the 1031 00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,840 Speaker 2: problem is that we can't get a break from the 1032 00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:59,359 Speaker 2: stress social media screens, the incessant nature of it make 1033 00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,320 Speaker 2: it very differentficult for us to ever turn the stress off. 1034 00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,480 Speaker 2: We don't want to turn it off completely or never 1035 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,239 Speaker 2: have it. That would not be a worthy or possible goal. 1036 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,440 Speaker 2: But we don't get breaks from it. And that's what 1037 00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,400 Speaker 2: I worry about the most with my girls myself to 1038 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,759 Speaker 2: some extent, although I'm much more aware of it, But 1039 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:20,280 Speaker 2: that's what I worry about, Katie. 1040 00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,480 Speaker 1: So you're saying that it's really important to put the 1041 00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:27,400 Speaker 1: phones down, put them away, even studies that show if 1042 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:32,160 Speaker 1: it's on a table it's distracting by its very presence, 1043 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,239 Speaker 1: because you can't have a deep, focused conversation with that 1044 00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,200 Speaker 1: thing in your line of sight. 1045 00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:43,440 Speaker 2: Right. The distraction, just the presence of it, whatever it 1046 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,240 Speaker 2: may be, it takes you away from being in the moment. 1047 00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,200 Speaker 2: And again, I know some of this sounds so euphemistic 1048 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,200 Speaker 2: and maybe you've heard it all before, but now the 1049 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,799 Speaker 2: data is there. I mean, I mean smartphone has only 1050 00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,799 Speaker 2: really been around since two thousand and five, Katie. I mean, 1051 00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,080 Speaker 2: think about that teen years, and it's not that long, 1052 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,560 Speaker 2: and we've had some of the biggest behavioral shifts ever 1053 00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,320 Speaker 2: recorded in human history during that time. 1054 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,399 Speaker 1: You talk about kind of constant stress and you need 1055 00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:15,640 Speaker 1: stress in them recovery. I guess that's because your brain 1056 00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:19,280 Speaker 1: is producing too much cortisolve, right, I mean, the stress hormone, 1057 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:21,920 Speaker 1: or is it doing a lot of other stuff. 1058 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:26,360 Speaker 2: Physiologically, I think I think the thing that that is 1059 00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,680 Speaker 2: becoming clearer is that the absolute amount may not be 1060 00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,000 Speaker 2: as important as how long your cells are are sort 1061 00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,800 Speaker 2: of exposed to the to the stress hormone, you can 1062 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:41,000 Speaker 2: have these amazingly high spikes. And they saw this in 1063 00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,080 Speaker 2: people fighter pilots, people who are in these incredible situations 1064 00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,520 Speaker 2: for periods of time, really high spike, so high in fact, 1065 00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:50,240 Speaker 2: that the blood vessels in the back of their eyes 1066 00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,200 Speaker 2: would change. They would have to account for blurriness of 1067 00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,680 Speaker 2: vision because they're they're they're epinephrin spike so high. But 1068 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,000 Speaker 2: the when they weren't, and that's a situation they had 1069 00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:05,520 Speaker 2: incredibly low levels of stress, really high heart rate variability. 1070 00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,360 Speaker 2: Heart rate variability is a really interesting measure of this 1071 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,160 Speaker 2: because if you have high heart rate variability, that's good. 1072 00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:16,000 Speaker 2: That means that means your your bloodvessels aren't clamped down 1073 00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,080 Speaker 2: by all the stress hormones. They're the kind of loose 1074 00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:23,000 Speaker 2: and the variability is good. And so it wasn't the 1075 00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:27,520 Speaker 2: spikes in cortisol, epinephron other stress hormones as much as 1076 00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,840 Speaker 2: it was them staying plateauing at an at an unreasonably 1077 00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:32,440 Speaker 2: high level. 1078 00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,440 Speaker 1: Interesting when it comes to stress and closing because I've 1079 00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:38,960 Speaker 1: kept you far too long, sign Jay, but I could 1080 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,320 Speaker 1: talk to you all day. Is what is the impact 1081 00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:47,640 Speaker 1: of this year plus of really for many people, this 1082 00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:53,360 Speaker 1: constant stress, and how is that going to, in your view, 1083 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:57,440 Speaker 1: affect us in terms of collective trauma? 1084 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,320 Speaker 2: You know, we we have pretty pretty good data on 1085 00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,000 Speaker 2: what these stress hormones in prolonged periods of time due 1086 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,520 Speaker 2: to the brain we've you know, that's been documented now 1087 00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:12,840 Speaker 2: in all sorts of different studies. Nothing quite like this, obviously, 1088 00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:16,280 Speaker 2: because this is so unique, And that's why I still 1089 00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,080 Speaker 2: preface by saying I don't know for sure. With great humility, 1090 00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:22,480 Speaker 2: I try and answer some of these questions, but I 1091 00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,720 Speaker 2: think there will be an impact. But I think that 1092 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:29,960 Speaker 2: we've also learned that we can grow new brain cells, 1093 00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:34,080 Speaker 2: though we can recover from that. We can create situations 1094 00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,640 Speaker 2: where it doesn't become such a incessant memory that it 1095 00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,080 Speaker 2: basically leads to post traumatic stress, which is a real 1096 00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:45,280 Speaker 2: concern as well. There will be people that have significant 1097 00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:48,080 Speaker 2: amounts of post traumatic stress, but our ability to treat that, 1098 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,560 Speaker 2: to recognize it is better than before, and our ability 1099 00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:55,080 Speaker 2: to build new brain cells to help compensate is better 1100 00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,960 Speaker 2: than before, so impact significant, but solutions you know emerging 1101 01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:00,640 Speaker 2: as well. 1102 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:05,160 Speaker 1: So it is possible to heal. I hear you say. 1103 01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:09,680 Speaker 2: It is possible to heal. And we've seen it before, 1104 01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:11,840 Speaker 2: you know, with other even other pandemics. 1105 01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:19,240 Speaker 1: A huge thank you to my friend doctor Sanche Gupta, 1106 01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:22,880 Speaker 1: who you can watch on CNN or listen to on 1107 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:28,600 Speaker 1: his daily podcast Coronavirus Fact or Fiction. His new book, 1108 01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:31,280 Speaker 1: by the way, is called Keep Sharp, How to Build 1109 01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:33,880 Speaker 1: a Better Brain at Any Age. And I want you 1110 01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:38,000 Speaker 1: all to know I just ate breakfast using my left hand. 1111 01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:48,160 Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Kirk is a production of iHeartMedia 1112 01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:52,240 Speaker 1: and Katie Kirk Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kirk, 1113 01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:57,000 Speaker 1: and Courtney Ltz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hanson. Associate 1114 01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:02,080 Speaker 1: producers Derek Clements, Hriana Fassio, and Emily Pinto. The show 1115 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:05,880 Speaker 1: is edited and mixed by Derek Clements. For more information 1116 01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,800 Speaker 1: about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, Wakeupcall, 1117 01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,920 Speaker 1: go to Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me 1118 01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,680 Speaker 1: at Katiekuric, on Instagram and all my social media channels. 1119 01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:22,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 1120 01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:24,840 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.