WEBVTT - Inside NYC’s Cash Bail Reform Success

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek with Carol Messer and Tim Steneveek

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<v Speaker 1>on Bloomberg Radio. Well, here's something I didn't know before

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<v Speaker 1>reading the story from our next guest, Sarah Holder and

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<v Speaker 1>Fulla kenneby their City Lab reporters here at Bloomberg News.

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<v Speaker 1>America's pre trial detention system is actually a global outlier.

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<v Speaker 1>It's set apart by an emphasis on cash bill and

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<v Speaker 1>the for profit infrastructure that supports it. So if you

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<v Speaker 1>can't afford your bail, a company in the two billion

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<v Speaker 1>dollar commercial bailbond industry will cover it for a fee.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you don't qualify for bail bonds or can't

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<v Speaker 1>afford them, you go to jail. You wait months or

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<v Speaker 1>even years for a trial. Fulla and Sarah writing about

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<v Speaker 1>the success and challenges of New York City's supervised release

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<v Speaker 1>program and the current issue of Bloomberg BusinessWeek. It's the

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<v Speaker 1>annual City's double issue. It's on newstands now, it's online

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<v Speaker 1>at Bloomberg dot com, slash BusinessWeek, and it's on the

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg terminal. Full is here in the studio. Sarah's on

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<v Speaker 1>zoom in New York. Also here, the editor of Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>BusinessWeek Joel Webber in our Bloomberg Interactive at Brokers Studio. Joel,

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<v Speaker 1>good to have you with us. The supervised release program

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<v Speaker 1>here in New York City. I can't really call it

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<v Speaker 1>experimental anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know about it, though, did you know about it?

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<v Speaker 1>I had heard of it, okay in terms of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>when we voted for it, yeah, but or voted against it,

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<v Speaker 1>depending on how people voted. But I didn't know about

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<v Speaker 1>the successes and failures of it.

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<v Speaker 2>So one of the things as we were kind of

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<v Speaker 2>putting together the city's issue, we really wanted to take

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<v Speaker 2>like this, look at where cities are three plus years

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<v Speaker 2>after the pandemic, and this idea from Fuller and Sarah

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<v Speaker 2>I thought was a really interesting way to talk about

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<v Speaker 2>criminal justice and this experiment that's happened in New York

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<v Speaker 2>that I think has been worthy of more national attention

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<v Speaker 2>than it's perhaps received. And as you mentioned, us huge

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<v Speaker 2>outlier in terms of incarceration numbers. What the program has

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<v Speaker 2>shown is this interesting success already. And part of this

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<v Speaker 2>is the burden that is put on people who are

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<v Speaker 2>and it's until proven guilty, but they cannot be on

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<v Speaker 2>the street unless they have money for bail, and this

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<v Speaker 2>has really challenged that assumption and fulla talk to us

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<v Speaker 2>about who are the instrumental people who are helping make

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<v Speaker 2>this pilot a.

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<v Speaker 3>Thing, Thanks Joel, And so I guess, first of all,

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<v Speaker 3>the jail system in the US, folks have been it's

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<v Speaker 3>greatly expanded since the seventies, and so there are four

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<v Speaker 3>times as many people behind bars pre trial.

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<v Speaker 2>On four times four times and pre trial.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, pre trial so you know, accused but not convictive

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<v Speaker 3>of any crime than there were in the seventies. And

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<v Speaker 3>so these systems have sprung up in jurisdictions across the US,

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<v Speaker 3>New York having one of the most expansive ones to

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<v Speaker 3>address this ballooning population of folks that are being held

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<v Speaker 3>before they've been convicted. And so here in New York

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<v Speaker 3>we have this supervised release program and so each borough

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<v Speaker 3>has a provider, well, Brooklyn shares Brooklyn and Staten Island

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<v Speaker 3>share a provider. But basically the intend is to divert

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<v Speaker 3>people from jail and keep them from having to pay

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<v Speaker 3>bail that in many cases they can afford, and instead

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<v Speaker 3>give them programming, give them you know, job interview, help

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<v Speaker 3>give them access to housing, give them access to food

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<v Speaker 3>and give them access to things that they need to

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<v Speaker 3>ensure that they don't end up back in front of

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<v Speaker 3>a judge or back you know, in the criminal legal system.

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<v Speaker 3>And so that's sort of what this program sprung up

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<v Speaker 3>out of, and it's what it's meant to address to

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<v Speaker 3>keep people.

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<v Speaker 4>Out of jail.

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<v Speaker 3>I note that twenty seven people have died at Rikers

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<v Speaker 3>since the beginning of twenty twenty two.

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<v Speaker 1>And just so our listeners and viewers know, Rikers here

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<v Speaker 1>in New York is a place where people are held,

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<v Speaker 1>a pre trial place. Yes, yes, people who are waiting trial.

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<v Speaker 3>People who are waiting trial, most of them, I think,

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<v Speaker 3>like ninety percent of the folks.

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<v Speaker 4>I want to bring Sarah into this conversation to get

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<v Speaker 4>your insight on also the politics when it comes to

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<v Speaker 4>letting people walk through, walk us through, as far as

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<v Speaker 4>what the issues are there and the politics behind that.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean, bail reform as a policy change has

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<v Speaker 5>attracted a lot of attention nationwide. It's kind of the

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<v Speaker 5>new boogeyman. After the defund the police movement, people were

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<v Speaker 5>talking about sort of diverting funds from police departments and

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<v Speaker 5>reforming the practices of police now we're talking more broadly

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<v Speaker 5>about the criminal legal system that fulla laid out for us,

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<v Speaker 5>trying to think about new ways to hold people responsible

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<v Speaker 5>for crimes, but also sort of understand that the current

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<v Speaker 5>system as it is right now, lets people who have

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<v Speaker 5>the means walk free, while others who do not have

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<v Speaker 5>the means, who are just as innocent before proven guilty,

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<v Speaker 5>have to go to places like rikers. So bail reform

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<v Speaker 5>as a national movement has been tried, and places across

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<v Speaker 5>the US Illinois, Washington, d C. And New York City

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<v Speaker 5>are trying to look at different ways to allow people

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<v Speaker 5>to await trial outside of jails like wrikers. But obviously

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<v Speaker 5>politicians that engage and try to exert these policy changes

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<v Speaker 5>face a lot of political tax It's a hot button

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<v Speaker 5>issue across the left and the right, and so programs

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<v Speaker 5>like this are kind of trying to actually set up

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<v Speaker 5>the infrastructure in place for cities that take on this

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<v Speaker 5>politically fraught challenge of bail reform, like what do people

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<v Speaker 5>who are no longer eligible for bail? What do they do?

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<v Speaker 5>And so Supervisor releases sort of like a programming change

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<v Speaker 5>that attacks this or addresses this more political church political issue,

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<v Speaker 5>and Fuller can talk a little bit more about, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>what politicians face when they do take on Bill reform.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, before we let him do that, let's talk about

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<v Speaker 2>what this looks like in practic And there's a character

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<v Speaker 2>in the story Kevin, which is a pseudonym, but let's

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<v Speaker 2>talk about what Kevin faced and how the program affected

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<v Speaker 2>him personally.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so, at a basic level, when when you're arrested

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<v Speaker 3>in New York City, you're processed, you're booked, and then eventually,

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<v Speaker 3>usually after twenty four hours or so, you're in front

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<v Speaker 3>of a judge. And you know, in reporting out the story,

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<v Speaker 3>Sarah and I spent a lot of time in court

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<v Speaker 3>watching watching these arraiements, watching this happen, right, and these

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<v Speaker 3>hearings take You wouldn't guess five minutes no matter what

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<v Speaker 3>the charges are. And so at that point a judge

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<v Speaker 3>is going to decide, well, are you going to get

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<v Speaker 3>bail or are they going to release you and say

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<v Speaker 3>come back to your coordinate, or are they going to

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<v Speaker 3>give you supervised release? And so once you're diverted to

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<v Speaker 3>a program like this, someone like Kevin is being connected

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<v Speaker 3>with a social worker immediately and they'll have to meet.

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<v Speaker 3>Depending on the severity of the charges, they'll have to

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<v Speaker 3>meet a certain number of times a month. For him,

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<v Speaker 3>it's four times a month. And essentially it looks like

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<v Speaker 3>a therapy session. You know, he talks to his caseworker

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<v Speaker 3>about issues he's facing and what he's trying to do.

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<v Speaker 3>He's looking for a job maybe, or he's looking for

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<v Speaker 3>you know, help finding housing, and they hook him up

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<v Speaker 3>with with services and and and so in his life,

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<v Speaker 3>it's it's helped him. It's helped connect him with services,

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<v Speaker 3>helped get him a job, and helped, you know, make

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<v Speaker 3>him feel help helped him navigate the system that can

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<v Speaker 3>be so complicated.

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<v Speaker 2>Even you know, one of the most interesting things I

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<v Speaker 2>thought was reminded of is the economic toll that being

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<v Speaker 2>in jail and not being able to afford bail actually

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<v Speaker 2>is talk about what Kevin faced on that front.

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<v Speaker 3>So when he when he was standing in front of

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<v Speaker 3>the judge waiting to hear what is his fate would be, uh,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, uh city prosecutors that asked for a million

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<v Speaker 3>dollars bail and that's uh, that's something he could never

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<v Speaker 3>could never afford or could never pay. And so this

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<v Speaker 3>program allowed for another way right, sort of a midway. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>they don't have to let him go walk free, or

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<v Speaker 3>they're not landing walk free, but they're also not going

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<v Speaker 3>to make him go to Rikers, right, And so he's

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<v Speaker 3>able to do this programming. He's able to still go home,

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<v Speaker 3>but he has this responsibility to come and participate in

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<v Speaker 3>supervise release and he's been going he'do weekly for six

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<v Speaker 3>months as his case winds the system. That's six months

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<v Speaker 3>he would have spent in Rikers.

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<v Speaker 1>It's incredible that story full on its own. But Sarah,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to bring you back in here and talk

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<v Speaker 1>about how the city and advocates for this measure success

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<v Speaker 1>on the larger term. How do we know if it's

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<v Speaker 1>successful here in New York City.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean it's a really interesting question. I think

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<v Speaker 5>case workers are grappling with that as well. Like one

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<v Speaker 5>of the biggest takeaways, like when we were at Arrangement's court,

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<v Speaker 5>was that people were not getting sent to Rikers and

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<v Speaker 5>they were getting sent to supervis release. And I think

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<v Speaker 5>for caseworkers that's a measure of success. You know, are

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<v Speaker 5>you diverting one more person away from that notorious jail.

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<v Speaker 5>And we saw, as you know, sometimes prosecutors would ask

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<v Speaker 5>for a million dollars bail or we saw you know,

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<v Speaker 5>even fifteen thousand dollars bill, something that defendants just could

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<v Speaker 5>not pay. And we saw judges and public defenders and

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<v Speaker 5>even prosecutors in some instances say, you know, why don't

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<v Speaker 5>we do supervisor release instead. This person is not a

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<v Speaker 5>flight risk. They will return to court. So we saw

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<v Speaker 5>in real time people getting diverted from from breakers. So

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<v Speaker 5>that's one measure of success. Another is how many times

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<v Speaker 5>people are showing up for court again. You know, in

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<v Speaker 5>places like DC, we've seen you know, people release pre

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<v Speaker 5>trial come back to court, you know, more than eighty

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<v Speaker 5>percent of the time. And that's that's really what bill

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<v Speaker 5>is supposed to do. It's supposed to ensure that people,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, face their day in court and don't disappear.

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<v Speaker 5>Supervis release is another way of making sure that people

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<v Speaker 5>do that, that they show back up. And then another

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<v Speaker 5>way of thinking about this is whether people are getting

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<v Speaker 5>re arrested while they're awaiting their day in court. You know,

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<v Speaker 5>people out on supervised release in the city get rearrested

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<v Speaker 5>less than ten percent of the time, less than two

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<v Speaker 5>percent of the time for a violent felony, and you know,

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<v Speaker 5>people are looking at those numbers and trying to understand

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<v Speaker 5>how to get those even lower, and how to work

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<v Speaker 5>with some folks who are recommitting violent acts or even

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<v Speaker 5>other offenses and giving them a lot more attention. Within

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<v Speaker 5>this program, ky full of.

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<v Speaker 4>Something I'm curious about is how does the approach when

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<v Speaker 4>it comes to the US differ than what typically is

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<v Speaker 4>seen more internationally.

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<v Speaker 3>So in other jurisdictions, I mean, cashpiel is seen as

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<v Speaker 3>a last resort. I mean the UK and Canada, and

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<v Speaker 3>in the EU cashpio is sort of like the last

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<v Speaker 3>last resort, and bail bondser illegal in most jurisdictions. I

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<v Speaker 3>think it's just the US and I believe the Philippines

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<v Speaker 3>that allow the.

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<v Speaker 4>US being more of an outlier.

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<v Speaker 6>Clearly, the US is definitely an outlier, but New York

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<v Speaker 6>is also not totally an outlier, right, Like there is

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<v Speaker 6>It's not like I want to get in the politics

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<v Speaker 6>of this still, but like who else is.

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<v Speaker 2>Following New York's lead here? And where else? We should

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<v Speaker 2>we be watching to see what the programs how those

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<v Speaker 2>programs unful?

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<v Speaker 3>So there are quite a few jurisdictions I guess not

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<v Speaker 3>quite a few, but there are some jurisdictions that are

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<v Speaker 3>trying to address the same issue, right, trying to reduce

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<v Speaker 3>jail populations. Because we have to remember that jailing people

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<v Speaker 3>is expensive. Like for a jurisdiction, for municipality, what's the

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<v Speaker 3>cost in New York. In New York, it's like fifteen

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<v Speaker 3>hundred a day I think per person, And so I

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<v Speaker 3>mean it's pricey. Yeah, it's like a you know, I

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<v Speaker 3>think I think it's like sort of like a college

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<v Speaker 3>tuition or something like that. Right, Like you're talking about

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<v Speaker 3>annually jailing people, and so there's an extreme cost for municipalities.

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<v Speaker 3>And then on the other hand, there's an extreme cost

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<v Speaker 3>for the folks who are going to jail. Right, You're

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<v Speaker 3>not working, you're not paying rent, you're not you know,

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<v Speaker 3>watching your kids, you're not doing all of these things

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<v Speaker 3>that contribute to society as well. And so there are

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<v Speaker 3>those costs.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So I said, we talked about the politics. Let's

0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.240
<v Speaker 2>talk about the politics. What's the city line on this,

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<v Speaker 2>and what about where the state comes in.

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<v Speaker 3>So this is a city, it's a city funded program, right,

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<v Speaker 3>So the city he spends about sixty seven million dollars

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<v Speaker 3>a year on this, and in the last budget cycle

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<v Speaker 3>we saw more money set aside for this program.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that a lot of money or not a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of money? More than than the pre k Wow, as

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<v Speaker 1>we've reported before, I will be off Thursday taking my

0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.840
<v Speaker 1>sons pre k. So holy you did the great story

0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.280
<v Speaker 1>on pre K earlier this year about Eric Adams not

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<v Speaker 1>providing funding to those PreK centers.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I guess in the grand scheme of thing.

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<v Speaker 3>The New York City budget is one hundred and seven

0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.640
<v Speaker 3>billion dollars, so it's not that much money, but it

0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:32.400
<v Speaker 3>is for a program like this, quite a bit of it.

0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:34.080
<v Speaker 3>It's quite a quite an investment.

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<v Speaker 2>And just keep in mind and also the economic side

0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.679
<v Speaker 2>of this, right, like instead of paying fifteen hundred dollars

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<v Speaker 2>per person per day, we're allowing those same people who

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<v Speaker 2>you know might not be even violent offenders to basically

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<v Speaker 2>like be able to be having, you know, keep their

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<v Speaker 2>normal feeling right and be in their community. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's really interesting. So what about the how does

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<v Speaker 2>how do other jurisdictions? How is this going over elsewhere?

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<v Speaker 4>Right?

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<v Speaker 2>Because clearly we brought up to defend the police as

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<v Speaker 2>a talking point, like this is a charged idea because

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<v Speaker 2>it goes against some conventional, long standing wisdom.

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<v Speaker 3>Definitely, and I think the New York City program sort

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<v Speaker 3>of is a great example of the challenges that programs

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<v Speaker 3>like these fates. Right, Like, on one end, the program

0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:32.240
<v Speaker 3>seems to be working and it seems like it's getting support, right,

0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.760
<v Speaker 3>and so it's ramped up, and so they the caseworkers

0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.839
<v Speaker 3>have a ton of cases, right, We've met some people

0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.880
<v Speaker 3>that have seventy cases on their plate. On the other hand,

0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.160
<v Speaker 3>they have to worry about the politics of this, right

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<v Speaker 3>Like New York has rolled back, New York State has

0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.679
<v Speaker 3>rolled back it's bail reforms, I think three times at

0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.920
<v Speaker 3>this point. Right, in other jurisdictions, we've seen campaign ads

0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.680
<v Speaker 3>sort of demonizing bail reform LEAs out in last year

0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.640
<v Speaker 3>ran ads right saying that he would, you know, reverse

0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:00.280
<v Speaker 3>a bail laws.

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<v Speaker 5>And so.

0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.840
<v Speaker 3>The politics of this are fraud to say the least.

0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.600
<v Speaker 3>And we see this in joysticks across the country.

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<v Speaker 1>Full of fantastic story, Sarah, A great story. Sarah Holders,

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<v Speaker 1>City Lab reporter at Bloomberg News on the phone from

0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.160
<v Speaker 1>our bureau. Full of Kennedy, City Lab reporter here at

0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.360
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg News with us in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers Studio

0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:23.440
<v Speaker 1>along with Joel Webber, the editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek. This

0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:25.560
<v Speaker 1>story and more in the City's issue, the double issue

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<v Speaker 1>of BusinessWeek