Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2: Hey guys, welcome to wind Down. It's just so happened.
Speaker 2: We just so happened to have Mark here with us.
Speaker 2: Of course Easton and Catherine and Riley. Everyone's on. Hey guys,
Speaker 2: how you guys doing.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's get into it all right, So enough,
Speaker 1: so we had our revelation this week.
Speaker 3: Everybody's talking about it. Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2: I have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: Well, there was some posts this week in the media
Speaker 1: about you having a new man in your life. The
Speaker 1: name Ian has been out there. I don't think I'm
Speaker 1: breaking any news here. He is a fitness instructor, I believe.
Speaker 1: Not well, he sure looks like it. I mean the
Speaker 1: description works currently ripped.
Speaker 2: He's got gat a great body, yes, but.
Speaker 3: He's not a fitness and struck. No, he's his own shirts?
Speaker 4: Because yeah, that's like the big topic.
Speaker 2: Does he ever wear shirts? Listen? That has probably been
Speaker 2: the funniest thing that I've in my dms, because it's
Speaker 2: like half the people are like, does he own shirts?
Speaker 2: The other half of people are like, oh yeah, keep
Speaker 2: it off, like his shirt, Like he looks amazing. And
Speaker 2: then we were going to do a challenge on TikTok
Speaker 2: and someone was like, challenge your boyfriend to not wear
Speaker 2: a shirt for twenty four or to wear a shirt
Speaker 2: for twenty four hours. And I was like, there's no
Speaker 2: way he wouldn't be able to do it.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't be able to wear one for twenty four hours.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know he because he works out and
Speaker 2: you know he takes a shirt off and then he
Speaker 2: just that's true. In his defense, he's like, Jane, you
Speaker 2: keep the house at like seventy five dearies.
Speaker 4: I mean I would sew shirt off too if I
Speaker 4: couldn't your house.
Speaker 3: Why if I looked like that, I would never wear
Speaker 3: a shirt.
Speaker 1: Why I'm a guy who wears a shirt at the beach,
Speaker 1: like I'm not happy with anything that's going on here.
Speaker 3: If I look like that guy, I'd never wear a shirt.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 2: That's kind of why. Like I'm like, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't hate it, you hear. My favorite thing.
Speaker 6: About it is that, like Jane's stories, it's like snowing
Speaker 6: so heavily outside and then cut to the man not
Speaker 6: wearing a shirt.
Speaker 2: Literally, I love it.
Speaker 7: I love it.
Speaker 2: I think what's so funny too, is like when I
Speaker 2: was I was talking to Catherine and I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: you know, it's starting to people are starting to catch
Speaker 2: on the man and the reflection, and I was just
Speaker 2: trying to keep it a little bit more because I
Speaker 2: honestly didn't know, and not that I didn't know that
Speaker 2: I didn't like him, but that we were dating. But
Speaker 2: I just it's scary, it's scary to put it out there,
Speaker 2: and so I was just trying to keep it close.
Speaker 2: And but I was trying to figure out what photos
Speaker 2: to put for the infeed, and I was like, Catherine,
Speaker 2: everyone I've selected, he does not have a shirt on.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, I have to add some changed. So
Speaker 2: I was like, Ian, I'm going just need you to
Speaker 2: start wearing a shirt, buddy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what can we know more about this situation?
Speaker 3: Like we know, so what can we know? What he
Speaker 3: does do? Is that allowed?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So he he is in private private equity. Oh
Speaker 2: so he is a he's a former Navy seal, but
Speaker 2: he's actually in the Navy Seal Reserve right now. So
Speaker 2: he still has to go to Virginia or I believe
Speaker 2: at San Diego to you know, every so often to
Speaker 2: because he's still he's still a part of the Navy Seals,
Speaker 2: but he's in the reserve. So if a war went off,
Speaker 2: you know, he said we would discuss because he would
Speaker 2: probably want to go back and wow. Yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 2: so he was. He's been a Navy seal for a
Speaker 2: long time. But now he works with another one of
Speaker 2: his Navy seal buddies in private equity. So I guess
Speaker 2: that they buy companies and sell them or something like that.
Speaker 4: It's like totally, I like.
Speaker 1: Don't like it seems like a better tax bracket than
Speaker 1: fitness instructors.
Speaker 6: So I like the sound that he could be like
Speaker 6: in a meeting reviewing someone's portfolio and then just get
Speaker 6: the call and he has to like put on a
Speaker 6: parachute pack like go active combat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean he's and then he's
Speaker 2: also he's uh, he's he's really big into CrossFit too,
Speaker 2: so he's actually training for the CrossFit games or open
Speaker 2: or whatever, so he does that as well.
Speaker 1: I'm starting to feel a little insecure now now we
Speaker 1: were getting into a weird area.
Speaker 3: Now why he's a superhero.
Speaker 4: For that's how all the men feel.
Speaker 2: I mean he's yeah, I mean he's he's pretty What is.
Speaker 4: It my husband always says, he always says something.
Speaker 2: A lot of people call him Captain America likes or
Speaker 2: some Rambow And he can hold his breath for like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, he can hold his breath for like four
Speaker 2: and a half minutes or something crazy like that, talking
Speaker 2: about because like in the Seals, like it's I guess,
Speaker 2: I go. Do you realize that your girlfriend has to
Speaker 2: plug her nose like when she goes into water? Like,
Speaker 2: how does that make you feel that when I jump
Speaker 2: in water, I'm plugging. I'm literally plugging my nose. And
Speaker 2: yet you can go down there for four and a
Speaker 2: half something minutes and hold your breath?
Speaker 3: Wow?
Speaker 2: I mean, because have you ever seen like what seals
Speaker 2: have to do to train? No, oh my god, it's like,
Speaker 2: I mean, people die training to be a seal because
Speaker 2: it's like the most like badass like training, And I
Speaker 2: mean they don't, was it not? I think he's downstairs.
Speaker 2: I can also I can grab him, but he.
Speaker 8: Worms.
Speaker 6: But just for our own confidence, can you please tell
Speaker 6: us he has like horrible breaths, like a micro penis
Speaker 6: or something.
Speaker 2: But in the very beginning with the girl like my girls.
Speaker 2: When I met him, I was like, Okay, he's handsome,
Speaker 2: he's got a body to die for, like he's his
Speaker 2: freaking navy seal. He's an act, private act, like he's charming,
Speaker 2: he's nice, he's like kind, he's got a daughter, he's
Speaker 2: you know, he's a dad. And I'm like, he's got
Speaker 2: a small I bet you he has a small penis.
Speaker 2: That's it. That was like something has to be wrong
Speaker 2: with him, like he has to have a small and
Speaker 2: it's I said, it's very nice.
Speaker 3: So what is something though? What does he do? This
Speaker 3: guy was something that's annoying.
Speaker 2: Or here's the thing, like I mean. So I met
Speaker 2: him in October. So he's friends with Andrew East, Sean
Speaker 2: Johnson's husband, so they work out together. They do like
Speaker 2: this Dadder Days or whatever on Saturdays. And so when
Speaker 2: I I went to the the I wasn't actually supposed
Speaker 2: to be there, and he wasn't he didn't have his
Speaker 2: daughter that weekend, but his his ex let him, you know,
Speaker 2: have for the party. And so I go to the
Speaker 2: party and I see, you know, this guy in an
Speaker 2: orange shirt and I was like, oh man, he is kaute.
Speaker 2: But obviously he's probably married, and you know, I don't
Speaker 2: really pay like much attention to it. But long story short,
Speaker 2: Andrew came over to me and was like, hey, there's
Speaker 2: a guy here I want you to meet. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: we're at a two year old kid's party, Like what
Speaker 2: are you doing?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Like, please don't try and set me up right now.
Speaker 2: And he's like, no, seriously, he's a really good dude.
Speaker 2: Navy see you like da la la la. He's like,
Speaker 2: he's the guy in the orange shirt. And I was like,
Speaker 2: shut up. I've been staring at him like this entire time.
Speaker 2: And then you know, we ended up meeting and that's
Speaker 2: how we met. And then we just you know talked
Speaker 2: and and yeah, kind of the rest is history.
Speaker 3: Okay, well you're you're going to tell us something negative
Speaker 3: about him?
Speaker 2: Oh no, October. I this honestly, like, how do I
Speaker 2: say this? It's been so nice not to have anything
Speaker 2: that's like I've never started, like because you know, like
Speaker 2: when I started with my ex two weeks and he cheated.
Speaker 2: So with this it's like I don't have anything that
Speaker 2: I can say like this bothers me or.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2: I will say okay, okay, so okay, there is one
Speaker 2: thing that he does. Okay, Mark's like, please give me.
Speaker 2: When he eats, he puts his teeth like on the
Speaker 2: top of his fork and I can hear the sound
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 3: That's what I needed.
Speaker 9: That.
Speaker 2: And then he kind of eats like he's like a
Speaker 2: mountain man. So I'm like, do we close our mouth
Speaker 2: or like we do? I like that so now like
Speaker 2: every time. So we were to eating dinner last night
Speaker 2: and he like did it and he goes, oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I heard that one.
Speaker 3: And I was like, okay, we all, we all need to.
Speaker 2: Be trained, and cause he was kind of like, you know,
Speaker 2: I saw him like he had all the meat he
Speaker 2: was making dinner and all the meat on the table,
Speaker 2: and I was like, hey, babe, like next time, do
Speaker 2: you mind putting that on because it's like the chicken
Speaker 2: stuff is kind of grossing me out. And he's like,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. He's like because he's so used to He's like,
Speaker 2: I eat dirt and I'm used to just preparing however,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 7: So.
Speaker 6: He's roasting like a broncho saurus rib over an open flame.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not worried about the chicken.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I feel you know, I will get him
Speaker 2: on maybe one day. He's he's he's he doesn't like
Speaker 2: to be like in the spotlight, you know, like he's yeah,
Speaker 2: he's a normal dude, is a huge and he just
Speaker 2: is kind of like you do your thing. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's doing you know, the the CrossFit stuff, but he's
Speaker 2: just you know, he just so enjoys it, and I
Speaker 2: just I want to support him however I can. But
Speaker 2: I think what the coolest thing about him is like
Speaker 2: he's we just have a lot of fun together and
Speaker 2: he pushes me to to you know, to uh just
Speaker 2: stretch my limits on things and where I'm scared, like
Speaker 2: he kind of pushes me and then where he you know,
Speaker 2: where he falls short in some areas, like I kind
Speaker 2: of push him to. So I just feel like it's
Speaker 2: just like a really good It just feels really nice.
Speaker 2: And I will say I definitely have tried to push
Speaker 2: him away a few times, uh, just because I'm scared
Speaker 2: of it, and you know, I I uh, it's I've
Speaker 2: kind of been like what's her face? And how to
Speaker 2: lose a guy in ten day? Like I've had I've
Speaker 2: I've tried to how to lose a guy in ten days,
Speaker 2: just because it's just I'm scared and I'm I'm scared
Speaker 2: of and I was scared to post because I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't want to be embarrassed. I don't want, you know,
Speaker 2: the same history to repeat itself. I don't you know?
Speaker 2: And and but you know, Catherine says, this is dating
Speaker 2: and you don't know the end results. But are you happy?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: You know, do you? And from what I see, you
Speaker 2: know he's an honest man, and but I, yeah, I
Speaker 2: just get so scared. And there's there came a point
Speaker 2: I don't know, it was like a month ago, and
Speaker 2: he goes, why are you trying to push me away?
Speaker 2: And I was like, no, I'm not. And he's like,
Speaker 2: you are You are actively trying to push me away?
Speaker 2: And I don't. He's like why, And I just started
Speaker 2: just bawling. And I was just like, because you're just
Speaker 2: gonna leave, and you're you're gonna cheat, or you're gonna lie,
Speaker 2: and and and he's just and and and then you know,
Speaker 2: I have to apologize and say I'm sorry, that's just
Speaker 2: my own fears and it's my own stuff and you've
Speaker 2: done nothing for me to think that. I was like,
Speaker 2: but it's just it's just scary, and I'm scared and
Speaker 2: I and you know the amount of times he've had
Speaker 2: he's had to like literally like look me in the
Speaker 2: face and go I am not going anywhere. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to hurt you. And it's like I hear it.
Speaker 2: But then I'm like, I've heard those things before, and
Speaker 2: so I'm scared of that because it never was followed
Speaker 2: through last time. So of course you're going to let
Speaker 2: me down. Of course you're going to hurt me, because
Speaker 2: that's what happens with every serious relationship in my life,
Speaker 2: from my father to my ex husband.
Speaker 3: So what can you do to reverse this cycle?
Speaker 1: Because it can you just can you kind of get
Speaker 1: in the mindset of one day at a time.
Speaker 2: Well and that yeah, and that's what I'm that's what
Speaker 2: I'm having to do now, where it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm talking to my therapists about it and my friends
Speaker 2: and just going, Okay, he's not my ex. I cannot
Speaker 2: put him in the same category as my ex. I
Speaker 2: have to look at his actions and how he's being
Speaker 2: with me, and but I mean, yeah, I have tested
Speaker 2: him probably to the limits with you know, my traumas
Speaker 2: and triggers. But then I have to go back and go,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry that was my stuff and I feel really bad,
Speaker 2: and you know, my therapist is even like, you know,
Speaker 2: he's he's shown that like he's not going anywhere, but
Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, you got to you
Speaker 2: can't keep doing this pattern. So it's like, yeah, I
Speaker 2: think it's just he said to me the other day
Speaker 2: we went on a run and he looked at me
Speaker 2: and he goes, one day, you're going to know that
Speaker 2: you can, you know, trust me and that I'm not
Speaker 2: going to hurt you. He's like, because I promise you.
Speaker 2: He's like I He's like, you know, he's said all
Speaker 2: this sweet stuff and it was beautiful to hear and
Speaker 2: it was so sweet, but he was just like he
Speaker 2: kind of just like you know, hugged me and was
Speaker 2: just like, I will not hurt you. And it's just
Speaker 2: like I just started crying because it's like he's in it.
Speaker 2: Just I just feel like very understood in that in
Speaker 2: those moments when he does that for me, right, because
Speaker 2: he understands the pain. It's so hard to believe. But
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, like today you're right tomorrow. I hope
Speaker 2: so too. He's like, if you don't believe me today,
Speaker 2: believe me tomorrow. If you don't believe in tomorrow, believe
Speaker 2: me the next day. If you don't believe me in
Speaker 2: the next day, believe me the next day.
Speaker 4: And all we can do is show you good, you know, yeah,
Speaker 4: saying it doesn't really matter at the end of the day,
Speaker 4: and all you can do is show you, and he's
Speaker 4: showing you, Yeah, let them.
Speaker 2: And I have to realize that there's people that you
Speaker 2: know are not like my ex, Yeah, for sure, and
Speaker 2: that I deserve it. And that's my therapist, like, you
Speaker 2: deserve to be happy. I'm like, okay, and you deserve
Speaker 2: to be treated it. I'm like, but do I I.
Speaker 1: Know, Catherine, Are we at all concerned about going so
Speaker 1: wide with this three months after meeting? I'm not, But
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a lot of pressure at a
Speaker 1: relationship to be honest weekly and people and all these
Speaker 1: other things.
Speaker 8: I do too.
Speaker 4: But I think it doesn't matter. I think if she
Speaker 4: does it next year or five years from now or
Speaker 4: last week or whatever, everyone's going to have something negative
Speaker 4: to say.
Speaker 3: It's not moving too fast.
Speaker 4: I don't think it's moving. It's not like they're just dating. Right,
Speaker 4: What is moving too, asked when you got divorced at April?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, yeah, I mean reover, right.
Speaker 4: But I mean my point is, why is there a
Speaker 4: certain timeline? Why is there a certain and they're just dating.
Speaker 4: They're not married, they're not engaged yet, right.
Speaker 3: I guess.
Speaker 1: I guess the publicity puts pressure on it. I feel
Speaker 1: like it labels it as something maybe more than it is.
Speaker 2: So I think the only the one thing that the
Speaker 2: publicity does for me is the if it doesn't work out,
Speaker 2: it's just another failed thing, and that puts on I'll
Speaker 2: feel disappointment. But at the same time, this is dating, right,
Speaker 2: Like just like with you know, the whole j thing
Speaker 2: Like this is, you know, I have to date to
Speaker 2: see who my person is and who I want us.
Speaker 2: And it's like, if if there's something that comes up,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to stay with him because US Weekly
Speaker 2: wrote an article about us. I'm gonna stay with him
Speaker 2: because you know, I like him and I care about him,
Speaker 2: and you know we're together. I'm not going to stay
Speaker 2: with him because I'm like, oh, I don't want, you know,
Speaker 2: to be embarrassed.
Speaker 4: Again or yeah. And I think that if you're the
Speaker 4: kind of person that doesn't share as much as you do, yeah,
Speaker 4: maybe keep it to yourself. But like you love to
Speaker 4: share stuff, you love, to show your life, you love,
Speaker 4: and I think that it's hard for you to not
Speaker 4: share him. So I think it's I think it's you
Speaker 4: do what feels good to you. You don't worry about
Speaker 4: what people say, and you just do you. I understand
Speaker 4: that if y'all were to not work out, that that's
Speaker 4: going to be hard, But you're dating and that's part
Speaker 4: of dating. And people don't have to know why you
Speaker 4: broke up. If you do break up, you don't have
Speaker 4: to show you know, it's just it's just you have
Speaker 4: to be able to live your life. Us weekly is
Speaker 4: going to email me every day asking for something about it.
Speaker 4: You have to live your life.
Speaker 1: And just does it freak him out because this isn't
Speaker 1: his world, So does it freak him out that his
Speaker 1: face is everywhere?
Speaker 3: And all?
Speaker 2: That's I think the only thing was like his daughter,
Speaker 2: Like I didn't like the fact they used a picture
Speaker 2: of his daughter just because that's you know, they didn't
Speaker 2: ask for that. But at the same time, he was
Speaker 2: just like, you know, I don't. He's like, I don't
Speaker 2: care about it. He's like, do you want me to
Speaker 2: delete Instagram? And I like no, Like, don't lee, You're intill,
Speaker 2: like you know of your Like, we're just living our lives.
Speaker 2: And I'm basically showing people that you can find happiness
Speaker 2: after pain. And if that's the message, if that's all
Speaker 2: that this relationship is going to show, which I hope,
Speaker 2: I hope not. I mean, I who knows, I don't know.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I want people to see
Speaker 2: that there is light after darkness, and you know, and
Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why I wanted to share.
Speaker 2: And again, I don't know what tomorrow holds. I don't
Speaker 2: know what the next day. I don't know if and
Speaker 2: when we're going to break up. But I don't want to.
Speaker 2: I just want to enjoy the moment that we're in
Speaker 2: and then go from there.
Speaker 4: And you don't want to live life like that, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't. I don't think that that's a healthy place
Speaker 4: to be. Well, let me just hold on to this
Speaker 4: because of what's going to happen or what may happen
Speaker 4: or what like. I just don't feel like it's healthy
Speaker 4: for you. I think that that keeps you in this
Speaker 4: place of but what if he hurts me? But what
Speaker 4: if he cheats on me? And that doesn't allow you
Speaker 4: to live day to day? You're still living in this
Speaker 4: future of what if he hurts me? What if I
Speaker 4: have to have an s weekly article about us breaking up?
Speaker 4: Like that doesn't allow you to just enjoy your life
Speaker 4: and live day by day.
Speaker 3: Have you met each other's children?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: How'd that go?
Speaker 2: Fantastic?
Speaker 3: That's a big step.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was one of those things where we
Speaker 2: because that's important too if we're dating and our kids
Speaker 2: don't get along or you know, how we parent kids.
Speaker 2: I mean that's going to be does that work for me?
Speaker 2: Does that work for us?
Speaker 6: Like?
Speaker 2: How does that look? And I think to go to
Speaker 2: that next level of a relationship too, I think that's
Speaker 2: something that you need to see. And you know, we
Speaker 2: kind of let them because they technically met the day
Speaker 2: at that birthday party, right because I met right because
Speaker 2: I met his daughter there. I was like, oh, Hi,
Speaker 2: it's my daughter, you know, so technically they had already met.
Speaker 2: So we just did it as like, hey, do you
Speaker 2: want to have a play date today? Mommy's friend that
Speaker 2: you met at that thing's going to come over and
Speaker 2: so that's how we kind of organically, Uh did that works?
Speaker 2: Daughter five, so same age as Jolie, and yeah, and
Speaker 2: they just get along great and she's a sweetheart. So yeah.
Speaker 2: So I mean, but I mean, I'm sure there will
Speaker 2: be challenges along the way with that and co parenting
Speaker 2: and the schedules. I mean, our holidays are completely flopped,
Speaker 2: so you know, there's there's times when I'm like, you know,
Speaker 2: I I don't it's hard for me to be here
Speaker 2: when I'm not with my kids, but we're here with
Speaker 2: your kids, so it's like I need, you know. So
Speaker 2: it's just like kind of an and vice versa. So
Speaker 2: it's just kind of figuring that out. And but he
Speaker 2: is someone He's the first person post divorce that I
Speaker 2: have wanted to be in a real relationship with.
Speaker 3: And it all seems good. Honestly, it seems wonderful.
Speaker 2: And he used to be a soccer player too, Mark,
Speaker 2: So I mean everything you asked for a non celebrity
Speaker 2: soccer player, you know, like a normal, normal guy.
Speaker 1: I honestly, if you put your dream man down on paper,
Speaker 1: I think you'd be very similar to this guy, A
Speaker 1: lot of boxes checked here, I know.
Speaker 4: Even your boxes, Mark, I mean she made sure.
Speaker 2: I was like boxes, I know. So we'll see. So
Speaker 2: I'm not like, we're not putting pressure on it. We're
Speaker 2: not like we're just we're having fun. He you know,
Speaker 2: he's pushing me in areas that you know, I feel
Speaker 2: like I hold myself back and I just it feels
Speaker 2: really nice to laugh and just be happy again. So,
Speaker 2: however that is, it's I will say this, and if
Speaker 2: this does not work out, I've already survived one of
Speaker 2: the hardest things and one of the worst things I've
Speaker 2: ever and hopefully we'll ever have to go through that
Speaker 2: any breakup. Moving on is not going to kill me,
Speaker 2: because if my divorce didn't kill me, this will not
Speaker 2: kill me.
Speaker 3: So, and he's on the show next week. I think
Speaker 3: we got them booked. I think he's ready to go
Speaker 3: one week from today. Is that what we said?
Speaker 4: Can we drill him on next week's episode?
Speaker 2: That okay? Talk about moving fast already having them on
Speaker 2: the podcast, come on.
Speaker 4: Right, all right, you're right, that's.
Speaker 2: A little on. It could be fun. Oh lord, I
Speaker 2: have a lot of questions for him. Oh I'm sure, Lord,
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're ready for that. That seems
Speaker 2: a little fussed.
Speaker 3: It's going to be a big.
Speaker 2: So good Oh my god, you guys like you you
Speaker 2: you therapist bomb us on. I'm like, this is not
Speaker 2: Janet and Mike podcast anymore. Guy, We're not doing that.
Speaker 2: Oh lord, No, no, I'm not ever. I'm not ever
Speaker 2: going back to that. I'm not gonna overshare like that
Speaker 2: because it's not going to.
Speaker 3: Be anything to talk about. It's just gonna be happy
Speaker 3: and good time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like your teeth and your teeth annoying me when
Speaker 2: you hit the fork. It's not like with something. Just
Speaker 2: feel better about themselves. And did I mention he you
Speaker 2: know he does my laundry and you know it's real sweet. Yeah,
Speaker 2: does he do it well?
Speaker 6: Does he separate the lights from the darks?
Speaker 2: And the other day I was like stressed out, but
Speaker 2: he was by the way it's like all the you know,
Speaker 2: the laundry, like, is it's done? I was like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, thank you?
Speaker 4: What does he separate out the colors?
Speaker 2: And because you don't, I don't ever, So I don't care, man.
Speaker 2: But yeah, anyways, he's a sweetheart. And so to the
Speaker 2: people out there that are having a hard time. Just
Speaker 2: know that there's there is a light at the end
Speaker 2: of the tunnel, and if you go to another tunnel
Speaker 2: and you see light, it's okay. If it goes to
Speaker 2: darkness again, you.
Speaker 4: Can be happy and heal at the same time. I
Speaker 4: think that's important for people to realize you're that's.
Speaker 10: Really good, that it's really important, because I feel like
Speaker 10: people are like, don't understand that, you know, so just
Speaker 10: remember you can be happy that still be healing well.
Speaker 2: And that's what I told him too, Like I was like,
Speaker 2: you don't want to be with me and he's like, yes,
Speaker 2: I do. I was like, no, you don't. I was like,
Speaker 2: I got a lot of work still to do. And
Speaker 2: he goes, then I'll I'll help you along the way.
Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, there's a light at the
Speaker 1: end of the tunnel and he is ripped.
Speaker 4: Just keep your shirt.
Speaker 2: Off there man, oh man, all right, well we have
Speaker 2: an amazing guest coming on.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I forgot.
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm with all of this, Like, like
Speaker 2: I said, I've got a lot of healing work to do.
Speaker 2: I'm still dealing with co parenting with my AX and
Speaker 2: it hasn't been easy, and you know, there are things
Speaker 2: that I still have, you know, things that are hurt,
Speaker 2: and it's hard and trying to balance the two has
Speaker 2: been very tough because, like I said, I still have
Speaker 2: a lot of healing work to do, and so that's
Speaker 2: where I fight a lot of That's where I fight,
Speaker 2: like pushing him away because I'm like, I can't do
Speaker 2: this like that too much. And if well if my
Speaker 2: ex hates me and you're gonna hate me, and like,
Speaker 2: so just I'm just gonna be alone. So you know,
Speaker 2: so I just I know that I still have a
Speaker 2: lot of work to do, and it is it's very hard,
Speaker 2: but I do follow this amazing woman. She does the
Speaker 2: Beterrial Trauma Recovery Instagram and she does the videos for them, Jane,
Speaker 2: and so we're gonna have her on and you know,
Speaker 2: just walk through you know, the life of a narcissist
Speaker 2: and gaslighting and abuse.
Speaker 4: I'm excited shot to her.
Speaker 2: Here she comes.
Speaker 11: Hey guys, it's been and Ashley from the Almost Famous podcast.
Speaker 5: It's that time of year where drama fills the air.
Speaker 11: The Bachelor is back with an all new season premiering
Speaker 11: January third.
Speaker 5: There's a new host, Jesse Palmer.
Speaker 7: And a brand new bachelor, Clayton.
Speaker 5: Clayton is a Midwest boy, has that great smile, nice teeth,
Speaker 5: and he's really tall.
Speaker 7: Ash let's call it what it is. He's a beefcake.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 12: Well, Clayton seems to be a good guy though, and
Speaker 12: he can't wait to find love, get married, and have kids.
Speaker 12: And he believes more than anything that his future wife
Speaker 12: is on this show.
Speaker 11: It sounds like a fairy tale but also a bit
Speaker 11: of an emotional rollercoaster because Clayton tells three different women
Speaker 11: he's falling in love with him.
Speaker 5: Technically, he told one, I couldn't be more sure that
Speaker 5: I'm falling in love with you, and another one I'm
Speaker 5: falling in love with you, and the third one, I
Speaker 5: am in love with you.
Speaker 7: You don't miss a thing.
Speaker 5: It's from years of over analyzing everything that guys say.
Speaker 5: But his heart is in the right place, sure, but.
Speaker 11: Other parts of him not so much, as we find
Speaker 11: out when he admits to two different women that he
Speaker 11: was intimate with both of them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think it's gonna go over well, we'll.
Speaker 7: Be breaking down it all. The famous podcast.
Speaker 5: Ben is married now, well, she's a mom well, change
Speaker 5: your opinions of what we think is acceptable single behavior.
Speaker 7: Good question.
Speaker 5: Listen to Almost Famous on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple
Speaker 5: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: All right, so we're going to bring in Jane. She is,
Speaker 2: she's incredible. She's a part of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery
Speaker 2: podcast and then she also does the the Instagram. I
Speaker 2: don't know, do you watch the middle cap? You need to.
Speaker 2: There's it's they're so it's so good. So let's bring
Speaker 2: Jane in right now. Hi, Hi, you know what, well,
Speaker 2: I watch you every day. That probably sounds really creepy,
Speaker 2: Like no, it sounds really creepy, but also like, doesn't
Speaker 2: she look like her therapist?
Speaker 4: Yes, that's crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you look so much like art. We we have
Speaker 2: a we don't go together. We don't do a couple
Speaker 2: of therapy, but I mean sometimes best friends in need
Speaker 2: couple of therapy, but we don't. But you look so
Speaker 2: much like my therapist that there's some sort of like,
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously I go to you know, your podcast
Speaker 2: in your Instagram to you know, just get all the
Speaker 2: knowledge and then to also not feel crazy, but you
Speaker 2: just you look so much like her that. I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, there's just like a peaceful I'm like.
Speaker 8: Very like, oh, I'm glad. I'm glad that we can.
Speaker 4: And her sweet voices. Sweet I know.
Speaker 2: So I I, are you allowed to share some of
Speaker 2: like your past at all or no? Like why like
Speaker 2: how you got into speaking out and doing what you do?
Speaker 8: Yeah? Yeah, okay give it to us girl, yeah anonymously.
Speaker 8: So yeah, I was. I was married for thirteen years
Speaker 8: and it was you know, a lot a lot of
Speaker 8: women who listen to our podcast and find us on
Speaker 8: social media have similar stories. So I was married, There
Speaker 8: was there was infidelity, there was pornography, There was a
Speaker 8: lot of that just betrayal, and I thought it was
Speaker 8: sex addiction. So I did. I went the sex addiction
Speaker 8: route that a lot of us go on. You know.
Speaker 8: We went to c SATs, which are certified sexual Addiction therapist,
Speaker 8: and that model does the opposite of the BTR model.
Speaker 8: We follow the trauma model, which is this is abuse.
Speaker 8: So if this is happening to you, you are a
Speaker 8: trauma victim, and there's a perpetrator and a victim in
Speaker 8: that model versus the sex addiction model, which says, you know,
Speaker 8: you need couples therapy, there's communication issues. He is, you know,
Speaker 8: the perpetrator, the one who is cheating or the one
Speaker 8: who is lying, or as doctor Omarmon Wallach calls it,
Speaker 8: has a secret sexual basement. This person is a victim,
Speaker 8: and so they need to almost like they're sick. And
Speaker 8: so it's like it's almost like your husband is a
Speaker 8: cancer victim, and it's your job to make life comfortable
Speaker 8: for him and to coddle him, to give him more
Speaker 8: sex and to be more attractive so that he's not
Speaker 8: tempted to deviate. And this can see, this can be
Speaker 8: very difficult for women in faith communities. You know, we
Speaker 8: have a lot of women in the BTR community who
Speaker 8: are you know, either extremely indoctrinated into their religious beliefs
Speaker 8: or their married to pastors or other forms of clergy.
Speaker 8: That's like a terrible hole to dig yourself out of.
Speaker 8: So in my in my experience eventually going down this
Speaker 8: rabbit hole of sex addiction, trying so hard to make
Speaker 8: myself exactly what I thought I needed to be, I
Speaker 8: I eventually started to identify emotional abuse patterns of emotional abuse.
Speaker 8: And the more I tried to explain that to our therapists.
Speaker 8: The more crazy I felt, the more gas my therapist
Speaker 8: began gaslighting me, telling me that I was, you know,
Speaker 8: finding fault, that I was not meeting my husband's needs.
Speaker 8: And that's when I started googling my symptoms, you know,
Speaker 8: And I think that that's a huge indicator. When you
Speaker 8: start googling your symptoms, googling what other people are doing
Speaker 8: in your relationship, that's a big sign that something is
Speaker 8: really wrong. And that's when I started to find BTR
Speaker 8: and I was like, oh my gosh, what the heck
Speaker 8: is betrayal trauma? I'd never heard that phrase before in
Speaker 8: my life. And I started listening to the podcast. I
Speaker 8: actually don't do the podcast and does.
Speaker 2: She's a sepoet and was also on wind Down a
Speaker 2: few weeks ago and choose amazing. So if you haven't
Speaker 2: heard that episode, definitely go back to listen to that one.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and using you know, using the BTR podcast as
Speaker 8: well as other resources. I'm an avid reader, and I
Speaker 8: started reading other books that were super helpful. They're on
Speaker 8: our website as well, BTR dot org slash books. We
Speaker 8: curate these books and make sure that there's nothing in
Speaker 8: because I mean, there's so many books out there about betrayal, trauma, infidelity,
Speaker 8: the you know, domestic abuse, covert abuse, and there's a
Speaker 8: lot of victim blaming language in these books. You'll read them,
Speaker 8: you'll get a couple chapters in you're like, oh, my gosh,
Speaker 8: this explains my story, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 8: like and you're codependent, and you're like, I just want
Speaker 8: something that will help me. But so we read these books,
Speaker 8: we make sure that there's nothing in there that's going
Speaker 8: to hurt you, and then we put it on our list.
Speaker 8: So anyway, I started reading and learn working with BTR
Speaker 8: coaches and finally figuring out that there wasn't just not
Speaker 8: just to downplay it, but there wasn't just sex, you know,
Speaker 8: sexual deviation and sexual acting out in my marriage. There
Speaker 8: was also emotional abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse, and coercion,
Speaker 8: and there was even physical abuse that I had not
Speaker 8: been able to see when I was in the marriage.
Speaker 8: And so for me, in my life, one of the
Speaker 8: most difficult things I've ever had to do was look
Speaker 8: at in the eyes and be like, I am a
Speaker 8: victim of domestic abuse. I mean the shame that you
Speaker 8: feel when you recognize that the fear of knowing I'm
Speaker 8: gonna have to do something about this. You know, I
Speaker 8: have children as well that I share with my ex husband,
Speaker 8: so you know, navigating that, realizing I'm gonna have to
Speaker 8: face the family court system, it was overwhelming, but I
Speaker 8: was able to use BTR resources. I was able to
Speaker 8: use We really love Tina Swyn from One Mom's Battle.
Speaker 8: She's also on Instagram. Using those resources, there were a
Speaker 8: lot of other I don't just powerful moments for myself
Speaker 8: of just regaining my sense of self that helped me
Speaker 8: to kind of get through to the other end. And
Speaker 8: then I've always been just by I'm a writer. I've
Speaker 8: been writing for a while just for different organizations, and
Speaker 8: so I kind of like made my way into BTR
Speaker 8: by continuously commenting on their different articles, just different things
Speaker 8: I thought that they should tweak or make better. And
Speaker 8: eventually and reached out to me and said, look, you
Speaker 8: just want to write for us. You keep telling us
Speaker 8: we should do things better. And I was like, ah, sure,
Speaker 8: So that's kind of how I how I started with BTR.
Speaker 2: That's awesome. And how are you now like with your
Speaker 2: do you still kind of go because I feel like
Speaker 2: and which is why I reached out to you because
Speaker 2: I was sending her some screenshots of me and my accent.
Speaker 2: I was like, I feel crazy, like and I'm like
Speaker 2: and I'm like, does this Like I'm like, I'm struggling,
Speaker 2: and I'm just like I need to like reach out
Speaker 2: to someone because I'm like, I, this is so hard
Speaker 2: and it's and I go back and like this like
Speaker 2: it's this, it's this awful cycle, you know. But I
Speaker 2: also realized that I one of my issues but and
Speaker 2: almost because I have to, because the co parenting is
Speaker 2: like I engage and that's like my biggest issue is that,
Speaker 2: like I have to stop engaging.
Speaker 8: It's so difficult. I think that. And that's the nature
Speaker 8: of this kind of really covert abuse is that it
Speaker 8: makes you question reality all the time. You know, you're
Speaker 8: always wondering, am I actually crazy? Am I the crazy one?
Speaker 8: Am I starting this? Am I the abuser? And I
Speaker 8: just want to say, you know, the fact that you're
Speaker 8: questioning that, the fact that you care about that, indicates
Speaker 8: that it's not you. Abusers don't care about how their
Speaker 8: behavior affects other people, only to the extent of how
Speaker 8: that's going to affect their image. So they might be like,
Speaker 8: oh my gosh, I freaked out. You know, they might
Speaker 8: drop their guard for a second and have a complete
Speaker 8: freak out yell at everybody, you know, and then they're
Speaker 8: like they will self reflect like, oh my gosh, I
Speaker 8: just showed them that I'm a psycho. Now this person's
Speaker 8: going to think I'm crazy. This it might affect my
Speaker 8: income in some way, you know, something like that, but
Speaker 8: not I hurt my family, I hurt my ex wife,
Speaker 8: I hurt her heart by scaring her. They don't do that,
Speaker 8: but we do, you know, we care about how it
Speaker 8: hurts other peoples feeling. So just keep going back to that,
Speaker 8: keep going back to intent. You might do things that
Speaker 8: are not in your character. You might do things that
Speaker 8: are not who you are, and you might go back
Speaker 8: and be like, oh my gosh, it's me. I'm crazy.
Speaker 8: It's not though, it's not. You're reacting irrationally, abnormally to
Speaker 8: an abnormal situation, which is healthy. That's correct.
Speaker 2: You know what's so interesting about what you just said too,
Speaker 2: because I'm like, you know, at one point he was like, well,
Speaker 2: I've I've that. One day I came over and was empathetic,
Speaker 2: and I'm like that was the morning after we had
Speaker 2: that big incident in the house which I can't share,
Speaker 2: but like where he kind of went crazy, And that
Speaker 2: was that afternoon where he was like, I'm sorry, it's
Speaker 2: like because they want to be worried about his image.
Speaker 4: His image.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I was like, oh my gosh, like
Speaker 2: that just like totally clicked when you said that.
Speaker 4: He said that one morning, I was.
Speaker 2: I mean, I know there's that too. What how do
Speaker 2: you deal though with, you know, co parenting with someone
Speaker 2: that has well that because it's narcissistic and has her
Speaker 2: and has no empathy.
Speaker 8: That's it's really hard to navigate. I think that. I mean,
Speaker 8: there's a few key things. So number one, you're gonna
Speaker 8: want to remember that it's important that you operate remembering
Speaker 8: the legal system does not favor victims, so unfortunately you
Speaker 8: kind of have to play their game. And so it
Speaker 8: would be ideal, it would be amazing if you just
Speaker 8: never had to see them again, drop off, pick up,
Speaker 8: not speak to them, but you are going to have
Speaker 8: to communicate with them. So one of the things that
Speaker 8: we advocate at BTR is that you just have one
Speaker 8: mode of communication. So there's a lot of apps that
Speaker 8: help you with this. Things like talking parents are a
Speaker 8: family wizard. I think Wyneth Paltrow made one called fair
Speaker 8: fa y r. And these apps are cool because the
Speaker 8: communication you have with you with your ex is quote admissible,
Speaker 8: and so everything that you communicate between yourself and your
Speaker 8: ex can be used in court. So you want to
Speaker 8: make sure that as you're talking to your ex through
Speaker 8: these that you're not doing anything that you wouldn't want
Speaker 8: to judge to read. And the cool thing about that
Speaker 8: is that you can really kind of you can take
Speaker 8: a pause, you can take a minute and think, and
Speaker 8: you can be like, all right, I want to be
Speaker 8: strategic about this. I want to make sure that what
Speaker 8: I'm writing here reflects not my traumatized, overwhelmed really trigger itself,
Speaker 8: because he might say something like I want to buy Mary,
Speaker 8: our daughter, a purple backpack, and to a judge, this
Speaker 8: makes him look like a great dad. But you have
Speaker 8: some kind of backstory where there's something really triggering about
Speaker 8: purple backpacks, you know, and he knows that, and he
Speaker 8: knows it's going to send you in a spiral. But
Speaker 8: instead of being like you sichoh, I hate you so much,
Speaker 8: why would you bring up a purple backpack. I hate you.
Speaker 8: You're breaking my heart. You know, instead of doing that,
Speaker 8: you can be like wonderful, thanks Todd, you're the best
Speaker 8: and send it. And then you call your best friend
Speaker 8: and you freak out and you don't can get the
Speaker 8: same outfit before days and you deal with your trauma, right,
Speaker 8: But you have shown the court system and your ex
Speaker 8: that he doesn't have the same kind of power over
Speaker 8: you he once had. And because the court system is looking,
Speaker 8: you know, in the event that you end up going
Speaker 8: back to court, which which unfortunately does happen quite a
Speaker 8: bit in these situations, because they're constantly they like it,
Speaker 8: you know, they like the conflict. In the event that
Speaker 8: that happens, the courts are looking for two high conflict individuals.
Speaker 8: They want the back that they don't want it. But
Speaker 8: they're expecting this back and forth to really immature people.
Speaker 8: They just hate each other, and that's what they're expecting.
Speaker 8: Your job is to show I'm not part of this dynamic.
Speaker 8: He's a psycho. I'm not part of this dynamic. And
Speaker 8: you don't show them that by constantly trying to expose him.
Speaker 8: You just show it by being yourself, by being your authentic, warm,
Speaker 8: stable self. Given me enough rope, he's going to hang himself,
Speaker 8: and you can really show that through your communication with him.
Speaker 2: You know what I think I was. We're just like
Speaker 2: not good right now, and it's frustrating because you know,
Speaker 2: my friends have seen me try to have a good
Speaker 2: co parenting situation, and I think words that have been spoken.
Speaker 2: I'm like, as much as I dislike you on many levels,
Speaker 2: I'm like, I would never say that to my to anybody,
Speaker 2: and it's like it's like the I'm like, the words
Speaker 2: that you're saying right now are so incredibly hurtful that
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't understand. And but then I you know,
Speaker 2: I cry to my friends. I'm a therapist, and I'm
Speaker 2: like I don't and then they're like, why do you
Speaker 2: care if someone has been so narcissistic and you know, cheating,
Speaker 2: It's like, why do you care? And I'm like I do,
Speaker 2: and like, I don't know if it's it's if it's
Speaker 2: the abuse piece or if I'm like, but every time
Speaker 2: I mentioned abuse, like he's like he laughs at me
Speaker 2: about it, and then that makes me then feel even
Speaker 2: more crazy because I'm like, but it was like, whether
Speaker 2: it was all the above, like it was still form
Speaker 2: of and then he's like, well, you know you said
Speaker 2: things to me too where you did this, and so
Speaker 2: then I'm like, okay, well maybe then I did deserve
Speaker 2: that because of X, Y and Z. So then it's
Speaker 2: just like this constant like and then I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: and then I want, like the abuser to like me,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, why why am I trying to get
Speaker 2: his approval and his He's never liked me, he's never
Speaker 2: cared about me. He orady wouldn't have done X, Y
Speaker 2: and Z. So I'm like and I'm like, I don't
Speaker 2: I don't have the answer, Like I feel like I'm
Speaker 2: I'm just stuck in that area, like why do I
Speaker 2: care or want his approval? Maybe because I never got
Speaker 2: it or maybe because I'm like hello, I plague like please,
Speaker 2: like I'm deserving of it, Like why have you never
Speaker 2: loved me the way that?
Speaker 9: Like?
Speaker 2: So I don't know, like do you have any insight?
Speaker 2: Because I literally yeah, therapists are like hands up, well, well, a.
Speaker 8: Lot of what you're asking has to do with how
Speaker 8: he thinks, and it's really important. Patricia Evans talks about
Speaker 8: this in her book The verbally abusive relationship. Understand that
Speaker 8: you are operating in one reality. He's operating in a
Speaker 8: completely different reality. In your reality. When you've harmed somebody,
Speaker 8: you want to know. For example, if you harm your
Speaker 8: best friend and she's like, hey, look you hurt me,
Speaker 8: you want to be like, Hey, what did I do?
Speaker 8: Tell me how it felt, tell me what happened, because
Speaker 8: you want to fully apologize for that. You want to
Speaker 8: clear all that out, and then I guarantee you a
Speaker 8: week from then. You're like, hey, are you feeling still hurt?
Speaker 8: Can you talk to me about it so much? She'd
Speaker 8: be like, oh my gosh, Janna, drop it. It's fine.
Speaker 8: You'd be like okay, and then you know two muths
Speaker 8: on the raadi and be like, okay, but are you
Speaker 8: do you really forgive me? Because you care? Because that's
Speaker 8: how that's the reality that healthy, normal people live in. Okay,
Speaker 8: you because you live in that reality. Because we are
Speaker 8: in this reality, we can study and we can learn
Speaker 8: and we can get PhDs on how these how abusive
Speaker 8: people think? We cannot think that way though, our brains
Speaker 8: cannot go there, and so your brain is trying so
Speaker 8: hard to wrap itself around the fact that he just
Speaker 8: doesn't care. But you can't. You can't understand it. And
Speaker 8: so to you, it's like, look, if I done what
Speaker 8: you did, I would want to apologize. I would want
Speaker 8: to give you closure. I would want to you know,
Speaker 8: shake hands and walk away. I mean, you birthed his children.
Speaker 8: You guys were together for a long time.
Speaker 2: Well, and he has like and he said, like, I've
Speaker 2: apologized a million times. I'm done apologizing. But I was like,
Speaker 2: but you haven't apologized, and you haven't owned the ward
Speaker 2: that you were abusive. And that's the piece that I missing.
Speaker 2: I need to I need to hear you say not
Speaker 2: because of X, Y and Z, or like I just
Speaker 2: need you to say I'm sorry that I was abusive,
Speaker 2: whether mentally all you know, just of it, just like
Speaker 2: I just need you to for some reason. It's like
Speaker 2: because now that I have done the research, I'm like, wow,
Speaker 2: that was mentally abusive, that was emotionally or that was
Speaker 2: financially abusive or you know, and it's like he just
Speaker 2: will not take ownership of that. And it's like I
Speaker 2: have a hard time. I just have a heard because
Speaker 2: then I just feel like crazy for wanting that. I
Speaker 2: guess and.
Speaker 8: It's not enough that everybody else affirms it and tells
Speaker 8: you and books and therapists and everyone else. You want
Speaker 8: it from the perpetrator because that's what normal people do,
Speaker 8: that's what healthy people do. And I think that you know,
Speaker 8: it's going to take some acceptance just to realize you're
Speaker 8: never going to get it from him. He will never
Speaker 8: validate that, he will never give you that kind of closure.
Speaker 8: That kind of closure is going to have to come
Speaker 8: from you accepting reality for what it is. And when
Speaker 8: you've been gas lit for so long and betrayed for
Speaker 8: I mean betrayal, it selptic is a huge toll because
Speaker 8: your whole reality changes. You thought things were one way
Speaker 8: when there was a completely different reality happening behind the
Speaker 8: scenes that changed, you know.
Speaker 5: And it was you.
Speaker 2: Then they they blame you for that. Well, if you
Speaker 2: didn't do this, or if you didn't like he was
Speaker 2: always like, well if you were you know, if you
Speaker 2: didn't say this, like I would have been nicer to you.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, what, like, it's just like and then
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, then I stay because I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 2: you're right, that was my fault, you know, or it's
Speaker 2: so it's hard for you because you know you have
Speaker 2: things blocked and you can't see certain things, or you know,
Speaker 2: it's I don't want you going out at three am
Speaker 2: to a bar or whatever like that's yeah, you're right,
Speaker 2: that's my fault. I'm sorry.
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, that's gaslighting. I mean, gaslighting has tremendous, horrible
Speaker 8: consequences on our brains over time. It's going to take
Speaker 8: you time to heal from that. Just surrounding yourself with
Speaker 8: people who just constantly are affirming to you that your
Speaker 8: reality is real, that you see things how they are,
Speaker 8: that you can trust your intuition. I think as that happens,
Speaker 8: it's going to be easier for you to let go
Speaker 8: of the fact that he is denying this, that he
Speaker 8: won't admit to it, and it's just gonna be enough
Speaker 8: for you to say I know, and your friends say like,
Speaker 8: I know, we know that you know. You know, And eventually,
Speaker 8: some day, as your children get older, eventually if you
Speaker 8: want this to be part of their story, they'll say,
Speaker 8: we know that you know. And you'll have this group
Speaker 8: of support, of a support system that believes your story,
Speaker 8: and you won't need him to admit it. He was
Speaker 8: there he knows. He knows. Okay, they know what they're doing.
Speaker 8: He will never give you the kind of closure that
Speaker 8: you need. But you don't need it from him because
Speaker 8: it's inside of you. You just can't feel it yet
Speaker 8: because he programmed you not to.
Speaker 2: Do you think that the person that he's portraying or
Speaker 2: the you know after that, Like, do you think people
Speaker 2: like that stay the same or do you think they
Speaker 2: can change? So like the perception of who they are today,
Speaker 2: because you know, he's out of a shame now, and
Speaker 2: you know, he always says like that, I'm wanting to
Speaker 2: keep him in a shame like I'm not. I do
Speaker 2: That's the thing, Like, I don't want you in your shame.
Speaker 2: I just want the apology that I know that I deserve,
Speaker 2: you know I.
Speaker 8: Okay, yeah, And there's so much to that. I believe.
Speaker 8: I believe in shame. I believe that when people do
Speaker 8: shameful things, they should feel ashamed. I feel shame when
Speaker 8: I do shameful things, and it's good because it helps
Speaker 8: me to realize I'm not operating on a healthy level.
Speaker 8: And I believe the word shame is weaponized by abusive
Speaker 8: men all the time to try to shift responsibility and
Speaker 8: accountability onto their partners. I hear it happen all the time.
Speaker 8: Your desire for him to affirm the level of hurt
Speaker 8: that he has caused you and your family is not
Speaker 8: keeping him in his shame. It's simply you expressing the
Speaker 8: pain that you're in and for him to be like, oh,
Speaker 8: I want you to stop this now so that I
Speaker 8: don't feel bad for what I've done to you. That
Speaker 8: in itself sounds very much to me like emotional abuse.
Speaker 8: So so there's that.
Speaker 2: I have a little, a little, a little asterisk to that,
Speaker 2: but I doesn't he he has a point, though, like
Speaker 2: to affirm his side. We are divorced, I should move on.
Speaker 2: So when he says move on, we're divorce, get over it,
Speaker 2: mm hmm, Like he has a point. We are I
Speaker 2: need to move on, I need to get over it.
Speaker 8: I okay, I'm I'm You're going No, you don't need
Speaker 8: to move on and get over anything. You deserve. I'm
Speaker 8: gonna change that, and I hope you can change that
Speaker 8: thought in your mind too. You deserve to be loved
Speaker 8: and to heal, rather than I need to move on,
Speaker 8: I need to get over it. That's him speaking. I
Speaker 8: hear women say things where I'm like, that's your abuse
Speaker 8: are talking, not you, that's his voice in your head,
Speaker 8: not you. Rather, you deserve validation and healing. And it's
Speaker 8: gonna come saying you need to get over such a
Speaker 8: traumatic event. It's literally like saying to somebody who is
Speaker 8: hit by a car who's still asking the person who
Speaker 8: hit their car and is saying, look, I need an apology.
Speaker 8: You you know they were let's change this analogy. They
Speaker 8: were driving the car on purpose. They hit a tree
Speaker 8: with the car fully knowing that there was a passenger
Speaker 8: in the car. Okay, and then you know, you get divorced,
Speaker 8: you move on. Years later, you're like, hey, when you
Speaker 8: rammed our car into that tree, it scared me, It
Speaker 8: hurt me. It it made me have a really hard
Speaker 8: time getting in cars with men. Okay, I would like
Speaker 8: an apology. He says, get over it. It was years ago.
Speaker 8: We're divorced now. Yeah, so you can see a couple
Speaker 8: issues there. He was a psycho to drive that into
Speaker 8: a tree. Maybe don't talk to him because he's crazy, right,
Speaker 8: but it makes sense that you want that apology from him.
Speaker 8: He should be giving you. He should be doing a
Speaker 8: lot of things to make restitution for what he did
Speaker 8: to you. He's not doing them. It makes sense that
Speaker 8: your brain is like, I want more than what I'm getting, right,
Speaker 8: But what would you say to that passenger. You wouldn't
Speaker 8: say get over it. You would say, oh my gosh,
Speaker 8: what can I do for you? What do you need
Speaker 8: to heal? So I want you to treat yourself with
Speaker 8: that same kind of compassion, because you have been through
Speaker 8: serious trauma and he's treating it like a splinter when
Speaker 8: this is this is an emergency room visit. This is
Speaker 8: an icy U S day, not a splinter with a
Speaker 8: little band aid, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I know. It's just when
Speaker 2: you hear those things, I'm like, oh, like all the
Speaker 2: seven years of the gaslighting and the manipulation and making
Speaker 2: me feel crazy, it just is still here today, and
Speaker 2: it's just like I it's just it's taken a lot
Speaker 2: more time than I but it's also I've discovered so
Speaker 2: many more things too about what it really was, and
Speaker 2: like oh wow, like I wasn't crazy, but there's still
Speaker 2: times where I still believe that, like I am crazy
Speaker 2: because of all the things that were said to me,
Speaker 2: you know, like the proof right in front of I mean,
Speaker 2: Catherine would sit in there when I would be like,
Speaker 2: tell me your secret email account. I don't have one.
Speaker 2: I me and Katherine just read through all of it,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's like just it's like even those
Speaker 2: memories come and I'm like, oh, but maybe he really
Speaker 2: didn't have one, but like we had the roof right there,
Speaker 2: you know, like and it's like this is have my
Speaker 2: friend's witness too, just to be like this slapping me.
Speaker 2: It's like hello, you know, like wake up.
Speaker 4: And I think too, I think we understand why you care.
Speaker 4: You know, if we ever say the words why do
Speaker 4: you care, I think we all understand why you care
Speaker 4: and why you need to be validated and why you
Speaker 4: need that apology. I think it's more what she said
Speaker 4: earlier that we know you're never going to get it.
Speaker 4: He is never going to validate that for you. So
Speaker 4: it's us praying for you to get to a place
Speaker 4: where you can do that to yourself, where you can
Speaker 4: give yourself the closure, not him, because we all can
Speaker 4: see it because we haven't been abused by him. You know,
Speaker 4: you still can't.
Speaker 2: Fully I mean, you see it, but you have though
Speaker 2: he lied to you true, just as much as he
Speaker 2: lied to everybody listening to the podcast, just as much
Speaker 2: as he lied to you know people on Mondays.
Speaker 4: He did not retrain my brain.
Speaker 2: He didn't believe didn't believe him.
Speaker 4: No, not really, if I'm being honest, No, not really.
Speaker 4: I mean sure there were times and little things that
Speaker 4: I wanted to believe that, But our brain was not
Speaker 4: abused like yours. You know, we were not treated that fully.
Speaker 4: So we can see that you aren't going to get
Speaker 4: what you want. You still want it. I see it
Speaker 4: in the text between y'all. Now you still want it,
Speaker 4: you still expect it, you still have this hope for
Speaker 4: it that you're not.
Speaker 2: Going I don't want to be hate. You know what
Speaker 2: my thing is. I'm like, yes, I want people to
Speaker 2: like me. That's it's a bad quality to have. I
Speaker 2: want everyone to like me, and I want one hundred
Speaker 2: percent of proven rights normal, which I know i'll never get.
Speaker 2: But like the person that has hurt me the worst,
Speaker 2: I don't know how he could hate me. That's the
Speaker 2: part that baffles me. That's the part that hurts so bad.
Speaker 2: I'm like, how can you hate me when you destroyed everything?
Speaker 2: But yeah, you blame me. He oh, I don't think
Speaker 2: he loves me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think he hates you. He hates himself,
Speaker 4: but he can't admit that. I do not, for I
Speaker 4: do not believe that he actually hates you and fully
Speaker 4: blames you. I don't believe it. I think he knows,
Speaker 4: but he's never going to admit it. That's my opinion.
Speaker 2: But I mean, I don't know, but in my my
Speaker 2: brain knows it triggers you well, yeah, and it just
Speaker 2: baffles me. I just don't understand how someone can hate I, Like,
Speaker 2: I gave a million chances. I tried as hard as
Speaker 2: I could, and it was like, but yet I was
Speaker 2: I was controlling and I was this, and it's like, well,
Speaker 2: yeah I did. I was controlling at times for sure,
Speaker 2: because I was feking, terrified that like you were gonna
Speaker 2: cheat again, and five million times later you did again,
Speaker 2: you know, Like, but I'm like, how do you?
Speaker 1: How do you?
Speaker 2: How does that person hate me? Like that's the part
Speaker 2: that just doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 8: And it doesn't and it won't make sense because you're
Speaker 8: in You're in reality one and he's in reality too.
Speaker 8: It cannot make sense. And it's almost at some point
Speaker 8: you're going to be grateful for this because you're going
Speaker 8: to realize you're healthy and he's not healthy.
Speaker 2: But maybe but he's he seems so healthy right now.
Speaker 2: That's the thing, Like he seems so like Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean he's too you know, he's he's going to mend's
Speaker 2: like all these things, and I'm just like, man like, okay.
Speaker 4: But even you's communication with each other's divorced people is
Speaker 4: not healthy. Yeah know, it's going to them so and
Speaker 4: I want to point that out. You saying that he
Speaker 4: seems healthy to me couldn't be further from the truth.
Speaker 2: But maybe it's because he hates me that much. I'm like,
Speaker 2: maybe he'd like truly just and then I get so upset.
Speaker 4: I think that if he's healthy and he hated you
Speaker 4: that much, he could still be respectful.
Speaker 2: I mean I do, is what I'm saying. Well, I mean,
Speaker 2: I do call him a narcissist, but that's not very nice.
Speaker 9: But truth, Jane's like, they will always hate, they will
Speaker 9: they will always hate people or or you know, honestly,
Speaker 9: like I'm not jury's out on what kinds of emotions,
Speaker 9: these kinds of people actually feel hatred to you.
Speaker 8: Means something different to him. Love to you mean something
Speaker 8: completely different to him, to this kind. To an abusive person,
Speaker 8: love is what can I get from you? What? What
Speaker 8: do you give to me to boost my image? You know,
Speaker 8: to make me more financially comfortable? You know, how can
Speaker 8: I use you? That's love? So then what would hate me?
Speaker 8: You're not giving me anything anymore. You're not giving me
Speaker 8: what you used to give me. I have no use
Speaker 8: for you. You're hurting my image. So, yeah, he hates you.
Speaker 8: You're hurting his image by telling the truth. You're being
Speaker 8: a whistleblower. You're telling you're bringing awareness to narcissistic abuse. Yeah,
Speaker 8: he hates you. Okay, you're telling that good. You know
Speaker 8: you're doing a noble good thing here. And you know,
Speaker 8: I mean what you're asking. Every every single ex wife
Speaker 8: or ex partner of an abuser asked tod, why did
Speaker 8: he hate you in the first place? Because abuse is
Speaker 8: not love. Abuse is hatred, abuse and betrayal. Why would
Speaker 8: he have done any of those things? You know, and
Speaker 8: you can some therapists, you know, sexual addiction therapists will
Speaker 8: be like, oh, unfulfilled needs, blah blah blah. It was
Speaker 8: abuse and abuse comes down to power and control. That
Speaker 8: did not change once you got divorced. It's still about
Speaker 8: power and control. He was trying to exert power and
Speaker 8: control when you were married, and now that you're divorced,
Speaker 8: same thing as his access to you. So through texting
Speaker 8: or emails or however you're communicating, he's going to continue
Speaker 8: to try to be the center of your universe. And
Speaker 8: he's going to continue to try to control you through that.
Speaker 8: Control your emotions, control your time, you know, control your
Speaker 8: health if you're not keeping very well. He knows, and
Speaker 8: he likes it. He likes knowing how much he's affecting
Speaker 8: your life. He enjoys it. Okay, and I can tell
Speaker 8: you that just because they're all the same, you know,
Speaker 8: they all kind of operate the same way.
Speaker 2: What's your advice then, for someone dealing with someone who's
Speaker 2: got guess you know, a gas slider narcissist. Is it
Speaker 2: just no communication or is it just I mean, like
Speaker 2: ken you said, like okay, thank you?
Speaker 8: In yeah, I mean you can't you can't go no
Speaker 8: contact completely. If you share children, I would say limit
Speaker 8: your contact to logistics, use something, use a parenting app
Speaker 8: like Talking Parents or whatever. So you just have one
Speaker 8: route of communication and then just talk to them about logistics.
Speaker 8: One are you picking up the kids? You know, if
Speaker 8: one of the kids is sick, Yeah, she had a fever.
Speaker 8: She's doing okay though, so and so it's getting braces
Speaker 8: on this day. Let's you know, John has a birthday
Speaker 8: on Friday. You can have him in the morning. I'll
Speaker 8: have him in the afternoon. Just keep it limited to
Speaker 8: things like that, only parenting, only logistical issues. He's not
Speaker 8: the person to process your trauma with. He will not
Speaker 8: validate it. And if he tries to bring you down
Speaker 8: that wormhole, you just need to have some because you know,
Speaker 8: I can tell you this, the moment that you change
Speaker 8: your energy towards him, the moment that you stop trying
Speaker 8: to squeeze water out of that rock, he's gonna come
Speaker 8: after you. He's I get you know. He probably listens
Speaker 8: to your podcast and he probably hates me right now
Speaker 8: and he's so he might he might wait a little
Speaker 8: while to do this, but I guarantee at some point
Speaker 8: he's going to say something like I miss you, I
Speaker 8: don't know why you know I I or I wish
Speaker 8: I would like some closure on this. Can we meet
Speaker 8: and can we talk about it? He eventually, if you
Speaker 8: stop giving him the supply, the attention that he's used to,
Speaker 8: and with narcissism we call the supply, he will try
Speaker 8: to get it back from you. And but you're not
Speaker 8: going to give it because you're you're going to fill
Speaker 8: your life up with these other supportive people and you're
Speaker 8: gonna be able to say, I'm sorry, I'm not interested
Speaker 8: in going down that road. I only want to communicate
Speaker 8: with you about our children. We can be the best
Speaker 8: co parents we can be. And then you're just going
Speaker 8: to leave it there. Yeah, and then and then he's
Speaker 8: going to go off, And unfortunately there will be other
Speaker 8: you know, other people will have to deal with this
Speaker 8: abusive person. But but you are going to fill your
Speaker 8: life with safe people and just move forward.
Speaker 2: And I will say it's my fault. I mean, he's
Speaker 2: you know, I'm the one that keeps being like, hey,
Speaker 2: you know, I really need closure from the and it's
Speaker 2: like I just need to know I won't get it,
Speaker 2: so I just need to stop because I mean, in
Speaker 2: his defense, like, yeah, I you know, he thinks I'm
Speaker 2: wanting to bring up a shame.
Speaker 5: I'm not.
Speaker 2: But I can see like how he may think that
Speaker 2: that's what I'm trying to do. I just would like
Speaker 2: to get that full of closure and you know that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I will say, like, that's definitely my fault that I'm
Speaker 2: the one that like keeps wanting to like have those
Speaker 2: conversations and I'm the one drugg you know, a drug,
Speaker 2: judging up the past, you know.
Speaker 8: So don't blame yourself. Don't blame yourself. Keep keep that analogy.
Speaker 8: It seemed like that clicked. You have been in serious
Speaker 8: traumatic situations with this guy. Okay, don't please, don't. I
Speaker 8: hear him in your head. I hear him like, I
Speaker 8: feel like you have been through so much and you're
Speaker 8: expecting a lot out of yourself that is more than
Speaker 8: you should be expecting. Of Course you want closure, of
Speaker 8: course you want these things. I think that working with
Speaker 8: your therapist whatever, you know, you know what you need.
Speaker 8: But I just think a huge dose of compassion at
Speaker 8: beach here. That's like one of our biggest platforms is
Speaker 8: that self care is really just a ton of compassion
Speaker 8: for yourself. The things that you're doing that you're like, oh,
Speaker 8: it's my fault, this doesn't make sense. It makes sense.
Speaker 8: You are a victim of abuse, you know, and when
Speaker 8: you look at other abusive women or you think about
Speaker 8: other abusive women, I know that we're all like, oh
Speaker 8: my gosh, that poor woman. I can't believe she went
Speaker 8: through that. That's you, so see yourself that way, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm something's interesting that came up there day
Speaker 2: because Hughes always say that I and I will admit
Speaker 2: to this too. I had always had a really hard
Speaker 2: time apologizing, but when I did apologize, I would really
Speaker 2: mean it, you know, like if there was something you know,
Speaker 2: that I did that upset him. But I feel like
Speaker 2: because I have, you know, I'm now in a new relationship,
Speaker 2: but I feel like because of my past, I'm constantly
Speaker 2: having to be like, I'm sorry, that's my past triggers,
Speaker 2: and that's like this just came up for me. It
Speaker 2: has nothing to do with you, and you've been amazing,
Speaker 2: but like this is like what what I feel, and
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, and it's like I just I've realized how
Speaker 2: much baggage I have in my new relationship that it's
Speaker 2: actually like this apart makes sad, Like I feel it's
Speaker 2: like it's so unfair to like him, you know, because
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's not fair, like that, like my like
Speaker 2: my is now like all over his side, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Yeah, Choosing like a partner post trauma is a really
Speaker 8: interesting thing because you're gonna need to, you know, find
Speaker 8: someone or let someone find you who is extremely compassionate.
Speaker 8: It's a gift to be with a trauma victim. Trauma
Speaker 8: victims are some of the most compassionate, loving, sensitive, affectionate
Speaker 8: people on the planet. And why because we know what
Speaker 8: it's like to be so desperately lonely in a relationship.
Speaker 8: We have a ton of love to give. We are
Speaker 8: we're honest to a fault because we've been accused of
Speaker 8: being liars. You know, We're so self reflective, and so
Speaker 8: we require incredible partners. So make sure that whoever you
Speaker 8: decide to be with understands, you know, rather than being like,
Speaker 8: oh my gosh, I'm so grateful that anybody wants to
Speaker 8: be with me because I'm so pathetic. You know what, andership,
Speaker 8: if the mindset to understanding being with you is a
Speaker 8: huge privilege. And I hope all trauma victims who are
Speaker 8: hearing this understand that we have gone through the ringer
Speaker 8: and we have come out wounded, yes, but as incredible partners.
Speaker 8: And so anybody who's with us does have to be,
Speaker 8: you know, very trauma sensitive, very understanding, and very willing
Speaker 8: to work through difficult moments with us. But it's very
Speaker 8: rewarding to be the partner of a trauma victim. So
Speaker 8: he's very lucky to be with you. It is going
Speaker 8: to be a hard time, a hard period of time
Speaker 8: to work through, but you know, there are books he
Speaker 8: can read, he can get a therapist, he can listen
Speaker 8: to podcasts, he can be there for you through this,
Speaker 8: and that's that is what is going to be required
Speaker 8: for the relationship to work.
Speaker 2: Jane, thank you so much for just coming on. And
Speaker 2: I appreciate you, and I'm sorry that I you know,
Speaker 2: DMD you the other day being like I don't.
Speaker 8: Say sorry, no, no, no no. We get messages a
Speaker 8: lot like that, and I just and I feel like
Speaker 8: I just wish I could tell everybody, every single person
Speaker 8: who messages us, who comes through with that you're not crazy.
Speaker 8: You're not crazy, You're not nobody. We're not crazy.
Speaker 2: Jane, can where can everybody find the Betrayal Trauma Recovery.
Speaker 2: It's on Instagram.
Speaker 8: We're on Instagram. We're on TikTok. Our handle on TikTok
Speaker 8: is BTR dot org. You can find us on Apple
Speaker 8: podcasts just the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, and then our
Speaker 8: website is BTR dot org.
Speaker 2: Jane, you're the best. Thank you and I will be
Speaker 2: dming you again very soon.
Speaker 8: Thank you so much. Right bye, bye girl bye.
Speaker 4: I love her, adore her.
Speaker 2: I know, I watch her all the time. I just
Speaker 2: love her videos.
Speaker 4: I feel like she's a good one for you. Yeah,
Speaker 4: Like I feel like you like really kind of heard her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love but I every day I like listen
Speaker 2: to her go on her Instagram and I'm like, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: And then I like, I don't know, but it's okay.
Speaker 4: We're giving, we're having compassion for that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, she's really great. But well hopefully that helps
Speaker 2: a lot of people, you know. I it's so hard,
Speaker 2: like because I'm kind of in that spot where you know,
Speaker 2: I want to be happy, but then there's also things
Speaker 2: that like going through. But it's it's been really nice
Speaker 2: because so many people, I think, are you know some
Speaker 2: of the stuff that I've been putting out there about
Speaker 2: narcissist or gas you know, gaslighting phrases, and people are like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I never realized that. Now I'm they're like,
Speaker 2: thank you for you know, talking about it. So at
Speaker 2: least I feel like I'm like, okay.
Speaker 4: You're definitely helping people for sure, which.
Speaker 2: Makes me feel better.
Speaker 4: I don't think people really fully understand gaslighting and what
Speaker 4: is considered all forms of abuse and narcissism, you know,
Speaker 4: so it's helpful.
Speaker 11: You know.
Speaker 2: One of the things too, one of the gaslighting phrases.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh shoot, I used to say that.
Speaker 2: I'd be like, I'm sorry you feel that way. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: That's actually technically gaslighting. I could say that you're supposed
Speaker 2: to say like I'm sorry, because it's not.
Speaker 4: Really taking ownership of what you did. It's saying how
Speaker 4: you yeah perceived the situation.
Speaker 2: I wrote it down or actually saut the other day
Speaker 2: because I was like, oh crap, it's more about.
Speaker 4: What I was gonna say. He used to say that.
Speaker 4: I remember that vividly.
Speaker 2: That's where I thought.
Speaker 4: I think I got it from I'm sorry you feel
Speaker 4: that way. I'm sorry you feel that way.
Speaker 2: No, it should be i'm sorry that you're feeling this way.
Speaker 2: I have to look at it.
Speaker 4: It was it was I'm sorry for what I do.
Speaker 2: I know you say I'm then also it's like I
Speaker 2: admit that that is hurtful, and what I loved in
Speaker 2: it too is the correction, like, how what can I
Speaker 2: do so that it doesn't affect you that way? You know?
Speaker 2: Is there anything that I can do to help when
Speaker 2: I love that? Right? Like asking someone like because you
Speaker 2: don't sometimes like you don't mean to hurt the person, sure,
Speaker 2: Like I wouldn't know that if I, Oh my god, Cather,
Speaker 2: I have no idea that I hurt you that I'm
Speaker 2: so sorry? What can I do Instead of saying I'm sorry?
Speaker 2: I feel like, what can I do so that that
Speaker 2: doesn't happen?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 4: Yeah? I know for sure?
Speaker 2: Is there anything that I need to say sorry for?
Speaker 2: I'm sorry? I feel that way? All right, guys, talk
Speaker 2: to you next week.