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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hey guys, welcome to wind Down. It's just so happened.

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Speaker 2: We just so happened to have Mark here with us.

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Speaker 2: Of course Easton and Catherine and Riley. Everyone's on. Hey guys,

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Speaker 2: how you guys doing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's get into it all right, So enough,

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Speaker 1: so we had our revelation this week.

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Speaker 3: Everybody's talking about it. Let's talk about it.

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Speaker 2: I have no idea what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Well, there was some posts this week in the media

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Speaker 1: about you having a new man in your life. The

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Speaker 1: name Ian has been out there. I don't think I'm

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Speaker 1: breaking any news here. He is a fitness instructor, I believe.

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Speaker 1: Not well, he sure looks like it. I mean the

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Speaker 1: description works currently ripped.

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Speaker 2: He's got gat a great body, yes, but.

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Speaker 3: He's not a fitness and struck. No, he's his own shirts?

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Speaker 4: Because yeah, that's like the big topic.

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Speaker 2: Does he ever wear shirts? Listen? That has probably been

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Speaker 2: the funniest thing that I've in my dms, because it's

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Speaker 2: like half the people are like, does he own shirts?

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Speaker 2: The other half of people are like, oh yeah, keep

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Speaker 2: it off, like his shirt, Like he looks amazing. And

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Speaker 2: then we were going to do a challenge on TikTok

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Speaker 2: and someone was like, challenge your boyfriend to not wear

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Speaker 2: a shirt for twenty four or to wear a shirt

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Speaker 2: for twenty four hours. And I was like, there's no

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Speaker 2: way he wouldn't be able to do it.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't be able to wear one for twenty four hours.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know he because he works out and

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Speaker 2: you know he takes a shirt off and then he

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Speaker 2: just that's true. In his defense, he's like, Jane, you

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Speaker 2: keep the house at like seventy five dearies.

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Speaker 4: I mean I would sew shirt off too if I

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Speaker 4: couldn't your house.

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Speaker 3: Why if I looked like that, I would never wear

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Speaker 3: a shirt.

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Speaker 1: Why I'm a guy who wears a shirt at the beach,

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Speaker 1: like I'm not happy with anything that's going on here.

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Speaker 3: If I look like that guy, I'd never wear a shirt.

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Speaker 5: I know.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of why. Like I'm like, you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't hate it, you hear. My favorite thing.

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Speaker 6: About it is that, like Jane's stories, it's like snowing

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Speaker 6: so heavily outside and then cut to the man not

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Speaker 6: wearing a shirt.

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Speaker 2: Literally, I love it.

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Speaker 7: I love it.

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Speaker 2: I think what's so funny too, is like when I

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Speaker 2: was I was talking to Catherine and I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's starting to people are starting to catch

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Speaker 2: on the man and the reflection, and I was just

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Speaker 2: trying to keep it a little bit more because I

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Speaker 2: honestly didn't know, and not that I didn't know that

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Speaker 2: I didn't like him, but that we were dating. But

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Speaker 2: I just it's scary, it's scary to put it out there,

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Speaker 2: and so I was just trying to keep it close.

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Speaker 2: And but I was trying to figure out what photos

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Speaker 2: to put for the infeed, and I was like, Catherine,

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Speaker 2: everyone I've selected, he does not have a shirt on.

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Speaker 2: So I'm like, I have to add some changed. So

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Speaker 2: I was like, Ian, I'm going just need you to

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Speaker 2: start wearing a shirt, buddy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so what can we know more about this situation?

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Speaker 3: Like we know, so what can we know? What he

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Speaker 3: does do? Is that allowed?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So he he is in private private equity. Oh

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Speaker 2: so he is a he's a former Navy seal, but

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Speaker 2: he's actually in the Navy Seal Reserve right now. So

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Speaker 2: he still has to go to Virginia or I believe

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Speaker 2: at San Diego to you know, every so often to

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Speaker 2: because he's still he's still a part of the Navy Seals,

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Speaker 2: but he's in the reserve. So if a war went off,

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Speaker 2: you know, he said we would discuss because he would

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Speaker 2: probably want to go back and wow. Yeah, so yeah,

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Speaker 2: so he was. He's been a Navy seal for a

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Speaker 2: long time. But now he works with another one of

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Speaker 2: his Navy seal buddies in private equity. So I guess

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Speaker 2: that they buy companies and sell them or something like that.

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Speaker 4: It's like totally, I like.

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Speaker 1: Don't like it seems like a better tax bracket than

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Speaker 1: fitness instructors.

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Speaker 6: So I like the sound that he could be like

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Speaker 6: in a meeting reviewing someone's portfolio and then just get

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Speaker 6: the call and he has to like put on a

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Speaker 6: parachute pack like go active combat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean he's and then he's

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Speaker 2: also he's uh, he's he's really big into CrossFit too,

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Speaker 2: so he's actually training for the CrossFit games or open

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Speaker 2: or whatever, so he does that as well.

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Speaker 1: I'm starting to feel a little insecure now now we

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Speaker 1: were getting into a weird area.

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Speaker 3: Now why he's a superhero.

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Speaker 4: For that's how all the men feel.

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Speaker 2: I mean he's yeah, I mean he's he's pretty What is.

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Speaker 4: It my husband always says, he always says something.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people call him Captain America likes or

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Speaker 2: some Rambow And he can hold his breath for like,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah, he can hold his breath for like four

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Speaker 2: and a half minutes or something crazy like that, talking

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Speaker 2: about because like in the Seals, like it's I guess,

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Speaker 2: I go. Do you realize that your girlfriend has to

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Speaker 2: plug her nose like when she goes into water? Like,

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Speaker 2: how does that make you feel that when I jump

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Speaker 2: in water, I'm plugging. I'm literally plugging my nose. And

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Speaker 2: yet you can go down there for four and a

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Speaker 2: half something minutes and hold your breath?

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Speaker 3: Wow?

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Speaker 2: I mean, because have you ever seen like what seals

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Speaker 2: have to do to train? No, oh my god, it's like,

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Speaker 2: I mean, people die training to be a seal because

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Speaker 2: it's like the most like badass like training, And I

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Speaker 2: mean they don't, was it not? I think he's downstairs.

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Speaker 2: I can also I can grab him, but he.

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Speaker 8: Worms.

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Speaker 6: But just for our own confidence, can you please tell

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Speaker 6: us he has like horrible breaths, like a micro penis

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Speaker 6: or something.

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Speaker 2: But in the very beginning with the girl like my girls.

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Speaker 2: When I met him, I was like, Okay, he's handsome,

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Speaker 2: he's got a body to die for, like he's his

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Speaker 2: freaking navy seal. He's an act, private act, like he's charming,

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Speaker 2: he's nice, he's like kind, he's got a daughter, he's

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Speaker 2: you know, he's a dad. And I'm like, he's got

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Speaker 2: a small I bet you he has a small penis.

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Speaker 2: That's it. That was like something has to be wrong

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Speaker 2: with him, like he has to have a small and

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Speaker 2: it's I said, it's very nice.

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Speaker 3: So what is something though? What does he do? This

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Speaker 3: guy was something that's annoying.

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Speaker 2: Or here's the thing, like I mean. So I met

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Speaker 2: him in October. So he's friends with Andrew East, Sean

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Speaker 2: Johnson's husband, so they work out together. They do like

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Speaker 2: this Dadder Days or whatever on Saturdays. And so when

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Speaker 2: I I went to the the I wasn't actually supposed

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Speaker 2: to be there, and he wasn't he didn't have his

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Speaker 2: daughter that weekend, but his his ex let him, you know,

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Speaker 2: have for the party. And so I go to the

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Speaker 2: party and I see, you know, this guy in an

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Speaker 2: orange shirt and I was like, oh man, he is kaute.

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Speaker 2: But obviously he's probably married, and you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: really pay like much attention to it. But long story short,

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Speaker 2: Andrew came over to me and was like, hey, there's

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Speaker 2: a guy here I want you to meet. And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: we're at a two year old kid's party, Like what

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Speaker 2: are you doing?

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Like, please don't try and set me up right now.

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Speaker 2: And he's like, no, seriously, he's a really good dude.

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Speaker 2: Navy see you like da la la la. He's like,

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Speaker 2: he's the guy in the orange shirt. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: shut up. I've been staring at him like this entire time.

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Speaker 2: And then you know, we ended up meeting and that's

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Speaker 2: how we met. And then we just you know talked

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Speaker 2: and and yeah, kind of the rest is history.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well you're you're going to tell us something negative

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Speaker 3: about him?

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Speaker 2: Oh no, October. I this honestly, like, how do I

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Speaker 2: say this? It's been so nice not to have anything

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Speaker 2: that's like I've never started, like because you know, like

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Speaker 2: when I started with my ex two weeks and he cheated.

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Speaker 2: So with this it's like I don't have anything that

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Speaker 2: I can say like this bothers me or.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 2: I will say okay, okay, so okay, there is one

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Speaker 2: thing that he does. Okay, Mark's like, please give me.

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Speaker 2: When he eats, he puts his teeth like on the

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Speaker 2: top of his fork and I can hear the sound

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 3: That's what I needed.

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Speaker 9: That.

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Speaker 2: And then he kind of eats like he's like a

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Speaker 2: mountain man. So I'm like, do we close our mouth

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Speaker 2: or like we do? I like that so now like

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Speaker 2: every time. So we were to eating dinner last night

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Speaker 2: and he like did it and he goes, oh, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: I heard that one.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, okay, we all, we all need to.

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Speaker 2: Be trained, and cause he was kind of like, you know,

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Speaker 2: I saw him like he had all the meat he

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Speaker 2: was making dinner and all the meat on the table,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, hey, babe, like next time, do

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Speaker 2: you mind putting that on because it's like the chicken

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Speaker 2: stuff is kind of grossing me out. And he's like,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry. He's like because he's so used to He's like,

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Speaker 2: I eat dirt and I'm used to just preparing however,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 7: So.

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Speaker 6: He's roasting like a broncho saurus rib over an open flame.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not worried about the chicken.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I feel you know, I will get him

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Speaker 2: on maybe one day. He's he's he's he doesn't like

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Speaker 2: to be like in the spotlight, you know, like he's yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's a normal dude, is a huge and he just

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Speaker 2: is kind of like you do your thing. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's doing you know, the the CrossFit stuff, but he's

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Speaker 2: just you know, he just so enjoys it, and I

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Speaker 2: just I want to support him however I can. But

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Speaker 2: I think what the coolest thing about him is like

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Speaker 2: he's we just have a lot of fun together and

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Speaker 2: he pushes me to to you know, to uh just

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Speaker 2: stretch my limits on things and where I'm scared, like

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Speaker 2: he kind of pushes me and then where he you know,

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Speaker 2: where he falls short in some areas, like I kind

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Speaker 2: of push him to. So I just feel like it's

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Speaker 2: just like a really good It just feels really nice.

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Speaker 2: And I will say I definitely have tried to push

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Speaker 2: him away a few times, uh, just because I'm scared

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Speaker 2: of it, and you know, I I uh, it's I've

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Speaker 2: kind of been like what's her face? And how to

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Speaker 2: lose a guy in ten day? Like I've had I've

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Speaker 2: I've tried to how to lose a guy in ten days,

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Speaker 2: just because it's just I'm scared and I'm I'm scared

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Speaker 2: of and I was scared to post because I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be embarrassed. I don't want, you know,

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Speaker 2: the same history to repeat itself. I don't you know?

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Speaker 2: And and but you know, Catherine says, this is dating

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Speaker 2: and you don't know the end results. But are you happy?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: You know, do you? And from what I see, you

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Speaker 2: know he's an honest man, and but I, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: just get so scared. And there's there came a point

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it was like a month ago, and

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Speaker 2: he goes, why are you trying to push me away?

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Speaker 2: And I was like, no, I'm not. And he's like,

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Speaker 2: you are You are actively trying to push me away?

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Speaker 2: And I don't. He's like why, And I just started

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Speaker 2: just bawling. And I was just like, because you're just

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Speaker 2: gonna leave, and you're you're gonna cheat, or you're gonna lie,

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Speaker 2: and and and he's just and and and then you know,

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Speaker 2: I have to apologize and say I'm sorry, that's just

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Speaker 2: my own fears and it's my own stuff and you've

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Speaker 2: done nothing for me to think that. I was like,

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Speaker 2: but it's just it's just scary, and I'm scared and

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Speaker 2: I and you know the amount of times he've had

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Speaker 2: he's had to like literally like look me in the

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Speaker 2: face and go I am not going anywhere. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to hurt you. And it's like I hear it.

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Speaker 2: But then I'm like, I've heard those things before, and

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Speaker 2: so I'm scared of that because it never was followed

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Speaker 2: through last time. So of course you're going to let

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Speaker 2: me down. Of course you're going to hurt me, because

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Speaker 2: that's what happens with every serious relationship in my life,

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Speaker 2: from my father to my ex husband.

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Speaker 3: So what can you do to reverse this cycle?

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Speaker 1: Because it can you just can you kind of get

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Speaker 1: in the mindset of one day at a time.

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Speaker 2: Well and that yeah, and that's what I'm that's what

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Speaker 2: I'm having to do now, where it's like, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm talking to my therapists about it and my friends

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Speaker 2: and just going, Okay, he's not my ex. I cannot

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Speaker 2: put him in the same category as my ex. I

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Speaker 2: have to look at his actions and how he's being

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Speaker 2: with me, and but I mean, yeah, I have tested

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Speaker 2: him probably to the limits with you know, my traumas

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Speaker 2: and triggers. But then I have to go back and go,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry that was my stuff and I feel really bad,

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Speaker 2: and you know, my therapist is even like, you know,

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Speaker 2: he's he's shown that like he's not going anywhere, but

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Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, you got to you

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Speaker 2: can't keep doing this pattern. So it's like, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think it's just he said to me the other day

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Speaker 2: we went on a run and he looked at me

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Speaker 2: and he goes, one day, you're going to know that

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Speaker 2: you can, you know, trust me and that I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to hurt you. He's like, because I promise you.

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Speaker 2: He's like I He's like, you know, he's said all

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Speaker 2: this sweet stuff and it was beautiful to hear and

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Speaker 2: it was so sweet, but he was just like he

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Speaker 2: kind of just like you know, hugged me and was

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Speaker 2: just like, I will not hurt you. And it's just

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Speaker 2: like I just started crying because it's like he's in it.

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Speaker 2: Just I just feel like very understood in that in

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Speaker 2: those moments when he does that for me, right, because

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Speaker 2: he understands the pain. It's so hard to believe. But

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Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, like today you're right tomorrow. I hope

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Speaker 2: so too. He's like, if you don't believe me today,

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Speaker 2: believe me tomorrow. If you don't believe in tomorrow, believe

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Speaker 2: me the next day. If you don't believe me in

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Speaker 2: the next day, believe me the next day.

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Speaker 4: And all we can do is show you good, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 4: saying it doesn't really matter at the end of the day,

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Speaker 4: and all you can do is show you, and he's

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Speaker 4: showing you, Yeah, let them.

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Speaker 2: And I have to realize that there's people that you

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Speaker 2: know are not like my ex, Yeah, for sure, and

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Speaker 2: that I deserve it. And that's my therapist, like, you

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Speaker 2: deserve to be happy. I'm like, okay, and you deserve

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Speaker 2: to be treated it. I'm like, but do I I.

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Speaker 1: Know, Catherine, Are we at all concerned about going so

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Speaker 1: wide with this three months after meeting? I'm not, But

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's a lot of pressure at a

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Speaker 1: relationship to be honest weekly and people and all these

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Speaker 1: other things.

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Speaker 8: I do too.

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Speaker 4: But I think it doesn't matter. I think if she

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Speaker 4: does it next year or five years from now or

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Speaker 4: last week or whatever, everyone's going to have something negative

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Speaker 4: to say.

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Speaker 3: It's not moving too fast.

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Speaker 4: I don't think it's moving. It's not like they're just dating. Right,

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Speaker 4: What is moving too, asked when you got divorced at April?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, yeah, I mean reover, right.

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Speaker 4: But I mean my point is, why is there a

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Speaker 4: certain timeline? Why is there a certain and they're just dating.

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Speaker 4: They're not married, they're not engaged yet, right.

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Speaker 3: I guess.

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Speaker 1: I guess the publicity puts pressure on it. I feel

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Speaker 1: like it labels it as something maybe more than it is.

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Speaker 2: So I think the only the one thing that the

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Speaker 2: publicity does for me is the if it doesn't work out,

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Speaker 2: it's just another failed thing, and that puts on I'll

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Speaker 2: feel disappointment. But at the same time, this is dating, right,

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Speaker 2: Like just like with you know, the whole j thing

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Speaker 2: Like this is, you know, I have to date to

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Speaker 2: see who my person is and who I want us.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, if if there's something that comes up,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to stay with him because US Weekly

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Speaker 2: wrote an article about us. I'm gonna stay with him

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Speaker 2: because you know, I like him and I care about him,

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Speaker 2: and you know we're together. I'm not going to stay

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Speaker 2: with him because I'm like, oh, I don't want, you know,

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Speaker 2: to be embarrassed.

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Speaker 4: Again or yeah. And I think that if you're the

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Speaker 4: kind of person that doesn't share as much as you do, yeah,

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Speaker 4: maybe keep it to yourself. But like you love to

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Speaker 4: share stuff, you love, to show your life, you love,

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Speaker 4: and I think that it's hard for you to not

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Speaker 4: share him. So I think it's I think it's you

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Speaker 4: do what feels good to you. You don't worry about

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Speaker 4: what people say, and you just do you. I understand

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Speaker 4: that if y'all were to not work out, that that's

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Speaker 4: going to be hard, But you're dating and that's part

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Speaker 4: of dating. And people don't have to know why you

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Speaker 4: broke up. If you do break up, you don't have

336
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Speaker 4: to show you know, it's just it's just you have

337
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Speaker 4: to be able to live your life. Us weekly is

338
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Speaker 4: going to email me every day asking for something about it.

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Speaker 4: You have to live your life.

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Speaker 1: And just does it freak him out because this isn't

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Speaker 1: his world, So does it freak him out that his

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Speaker 1: face is everywhere?

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Speaker 3: And all?

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Speaker 2: That's I think the only thing was like his daughter,

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Speaker 2: Like I didn't like the fact they used a picture

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Speaker 2: of his daughter just because that's you know, they didn't

347
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Speaker 2: ask for that. But at the same time, he was

348
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Speaker 2: just like, you know, I don't. He's like, I don't

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Speaker 2: care about it. He's like, do you want me to

350
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Speaker 2: delete Instagram? And I like no, Like, don't lee, You're intill,

351
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,280
Speaker 2: like you know of your Like, we're just living our lives.

352
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Speaker 2: And I'm basically showing people that you can find happiness

353
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Speaker 2: after pain. And if that's the message, if that's all

354
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Speaker 2: that this relationship is going to show, which I hope,

355
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Speaker 2: I hope not. I mean, I who knows, I don't know.

356
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Speaker 2: But at the same time, I want people to see

357
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Speaker 2: that there is light after darkness, and you know, and

358
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Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why I wanted to share.

359
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Speaker 2: And again, I don't know what tomorrow holds. I don't

360
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Speaker 2: know what the next day. I don't know if and

361
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Speaker 2: when we're going to break up. But I don't want to.

362
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Speaker 2: I just want to enjoy the moment that we're in

363
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Speaker 2: and then go from there.

364
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Speaker 4: And you don't want to live life like that, Yeah,

365
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Speaker 4: I don't. I don't think that that's a healthy place

366
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Speaker 4: to be. Well, let me just hold on to this

367
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Speaker 4: because of what's going to happen or what may happen

368
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Speaker 4: or what like. I just don't feel like it's healthy

369
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Speaker 4: for you. I think that that keeps you in this

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Speaker 4: place of but what if he hurts me? But what

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Speaker 4: if he cheats on me? And that doesn't allow you

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Speaker 4: to live day to day? You're still living in this

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Speaker 4: future of what if he hurts me? What if I

374
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Speaker 4: have to have an s weekly article about us breaking up?

375
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Speaker 4: Like that doesn't allow you to just enjoy your life

376
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Speaker 4: and live day by day.

377
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Speaker 3: Have you met each other's children?

378
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Speaker 2: Yes?

379
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Speaker 3: How'd that go?

380
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Speaker 2: Fantastic?

381
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Speaker 3: That's a big step.

382
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was one of those things where we

383
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Speaker 2: because that's important too if we're dating and our kids

384
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Speaker 2: don't get along or you know, how we parent kids.

385
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Speaker 2: I mean that's going to be does that work for me?

386
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Speaker 2: Does that work for us?

387
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Speaker 6: Like?

388
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Speaker 2: How does that look? And I think to go to

389
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Speaker 2: that next level of a relationship too, I think that's

390
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Speaker 2: something that you need to see. And you know, we

391
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Speaker 2: kind of let them because they technically met the day

392
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Speaker 2: at that birthday party, right because I met right because

393
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Speaker 2: I met his daughter there. I was like, oh, Hi,

394
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,400
Speaker 2: it's my daughter, you know, so technically they had already met.

395
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Speaker 2: So we just did it as like, hey, do you

396
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Speaker 2: want to have a play date today? Mommy's friend that

397
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,920
Speaker 2: you met at that thing's going to come over and

398
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Speaker 2: so that's how we kind of organically, Uh did that works?

399
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,320
Speaker 2: Daughter five, so same age as Jolie, and yeah, and

400
00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 2: they just get along great and she's a sweetheart. So yeah.

401
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,199
Speaker 2: So I mean, but I mean, I'm sure there will

402
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,760
Speaker 2: be challenges along the way with that and co parenting

403
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,840
Speaker 2: and the schedules. I mean, our holidays are completely flopped,

404
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,919
Speaker 2: so you know, there's there's times when I'm like, you know,

405
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,200
Speaker 2: I I don't it's hard for me to be here

406
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,080
Speaker 2: when I'm not with my kids, but we're here with

407
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:36,879
Speaker 2: your kids, so it's like I need, you know. So

408
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 2: it's just like kind of an and vice versa. So

409
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,639
Speaker 2: it's just kind of figuring that out. And but he

410
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,919
Speaker 2: is someone He's the first person post divorce that I

411
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,439
Speaker 2: have wanted to be in a real relationship with.

412
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Speaker 3: And it all seems good. Honestly, it seems wonderful.

413
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Speaker 2: And he used to be a soccer player too, Mark,

414
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Speaker 2: So I mean everything you asked for a non celebrity

415
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 2: soccer player, you know, like a normal, normal guy.

416
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Speaker 1: I honestly, if you put your dream man down on paper,

417
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Speaker 1: I think you'd be very similar to this guy, A

418
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Speaker 1: lot of boxes checked here, I know.

419
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Speaker 4: Even your boxes, Mark, I mean she made sure.

420
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 2: I was like boxes, I know. So we'll see. So

421
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:22,920
Speaker 2: I'm not like, we're not putting pressure on it. We're

422
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,280
Speaker 2: not like we're just we're having fun. He you know,

423
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 2: he's pushing me in areas that you know, I feel

424
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 2: like I hold myself back and I just it feels

425
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:42,399
Speaker 2: really nice to laugh and just be happy again. So,

426
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,159
Speaker 2: however that is, it's I will say this, and if

427
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,639
Speaker 2: this does not work out, I've already survived one of

428
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 2: the hardest things and one of the worst things I've

429
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,679
Speaker 2: ever and hopefully we'll ever have to go through that

430
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,879
Speaker 2: any breakup. Moving on is not going to kill me,

431
00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,399
Speaker 2: because if my divorce didn't kill me, this will not

432
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Speaker 2: kill me.

433
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Speaker 3: So, and he's on the show next week. I think

434
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Speaker 3: we got them booked. I think he's ready to go

435
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,400
Speaker 3: one week from today. Is that what we said?

436
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,440
Speaker 4: Can we drill him on next week's episode?

437
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 2: That okay? Talk about moving fast already having them on

438
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 2: the podcast, come on.

439
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 4: Right, all right, you're right, that's.

440
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 2: A little on. It could be fun. Oh lord, I

441
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 2: have a lot of questions for him. Oh I'm sure, Lord,

442
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:25,720
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're ready for that. That seems

443
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 2: a little fussed.

444
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 3: It's going to be a big.

445
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 2: So good Oh my god, you guys like you you

446
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 2: you therapist bomb us on. I'm like, this is not

447
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,760
Speaker 2: Janet and Mike podcast anymore. Guy, We're not doing that.

448
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,120
Speaker 2: Oh lord, No, no, I'm not ever. I'm not ever

449
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 2: going back to that. I'm not gonna overshare like that

450
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 2: because it's not going to.

451
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 3: Be anything to talk about. It's just gonna be happy

452
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 3: and good time.

453
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:57,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, like your teeth and your teeth annoying me when

454
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,639
Speaker 2: you hit the fork. It's not like with something. Just

455
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 2: feel better about themselves. And did I mention he you

456
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,360
Speaker 2: know he does my laundry and you know it's real sweet. Yeah,

457
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 2: does he do it well?

458
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 6: Does he separate the lights from the darks?

459
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,119
Speaker 2: And the other day I was like stressed out, but

460
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 2: he was by the way it's like all the you know,

461
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,360
Speaker 2: the laundry, like, is it's done? I was like, oh

462
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:22,440
Speaker 2: my god, thank you?

463
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 4: What does he separate out the colors?

464
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: And because you don't, I don't ever, So I don't care, man.

465
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 2: But yeah, anyways, he's a sweetheart. And so to the

466
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 2: people out there that are having a hard time. Just

467
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 2: know that there's there is a light at the end

468
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 2: of the tunnel, and if you go to another tunnel

469
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 2: and you see light, it's okay. If it goes to

470
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 2: darkness again, you.

471
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,679
Speaker 4: Can be happy and heal at the same time. I

472
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 4: think that's important for people to realize you're that's.

473
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 10: Really good, that it's really important, because I feel like

474
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 10: people are like, don't understand that, you know, so just

475
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,120
Speaker 10: remember you can be happy that still be healing well.

476
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 2: And that's what I told him too, Like I was like,

477
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 2: you don't want to be with me and he's like, yes,

478
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: I do. I was like, no, you don't. I was like,

479
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 2: I got a lot of work still to do. And

480
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: he goes, then I'll I'll help you along the way.

481
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, there's a light at the

482
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: end of the tunnel and he is ripped.

483
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 4: Just keep your shirt.

484
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,439
Speaker 2: Off there man, oh man, all right, well we have

485
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 2: an amazing guest coming on.

486
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I forgot.

487
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm with all of this, Like, like

488
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 2: I said, I've got a lot of healing work to do.

489
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: I'm still dealing with co parenting with my AX and

490
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 2: it hasn't been easy, and you know, there are things

491
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 2: that I still have, you know, things that are hurt,

492
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 2: and it's hard and trying to balance the two has

493
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: been very tough because, like I said, I still have

494
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 2: a lot of healing work to do, and so that's

495
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 2: where I fight a lot of That's where I fight,

496
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: like pushing him away because I'm like, I can't do

497
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 2: this like that too much. And if well if my

498
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 2: ex hates me and you're gonna hate me, and like,

499
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 2: so just I'm just gonna be alone. So you know,

500
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 2: so I just I know that I still have a

501
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 2: lot of work to do, and it is it's very hard,

502
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 2: but I do follow this amazing woman. She does the

503
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 2: Beterrial Trauma Recovery Instagram and she does the videos for them, Jane,

504
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 2: and so we're gonna have her on and you know,

505
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 2: just walk through you know, the life of a narcissist

506
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: and gaslighting and abuse.

507
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 4: I'm excited shot to her.

508
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 2: Here she comes.

509
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 11: Hey guys, it's been and Ashley from the Almost Famous podcast.

510
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 5: It's that time of year where drama fills the air.

511
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 11: The Bachelor is back with an all new season premiering

512
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 11: January third.

513
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 5: There's a new host, Jesse Palmer.

514
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 7: And a brand new bachelor, Clayton.

515
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 5: Clayton is a Midwest boy, has that great smile, nice teeth,

516
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 5: and he's really tall.

517
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 7: Ash let's call it what it is. He's a beefcake.

518
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 4: Okay.

519
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 12: Well, Clayton seems to be a good guy though, and

520
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 12: he can't wait to find love, get married, and have kids.

521
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 12: And he believes more than anything that his future wife

522
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 12: is on this show.

523
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 11: It sounds like a fairy tale but also a bit

524
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 11: of an emotional rollercoaster because Clayton tells three different women

525
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 11: he's falling in love with him.

526
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 5: Technically, he told one, I couldn't be more sure that

527
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 5: I'm falling in love with you, and another one I'm

528
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 5: falling in love with you, and the third one, I

529
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 5: am in love with you.

530
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 7: You don't miss a thing.

531
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 5: It's from years of over analyzing everything that guys say.

532
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 5: But his heart is in the right place, sure, but.

533
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 11: Other parts of him not so much, as we find

534
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 11: out when he admits to two different women that he

535
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 11: was intimate with both of them.

536
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think it's gonna go over well, we'll.

537
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 7: Be breaking down it all. The famous podcast.

538
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 5: Ben is married now, well, she's a mom well, change

539
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 5: your opinions of what we think is acceptable single behavior.

540
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 7: Good question.

541
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 5: Listen to Almost Famous on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple

542
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 5: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

543
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 2: All right, so we're going to bring in Jane. She is,

544
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: she's incredible. She's a part of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery

545
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: podcast and then she also does the the Instagram. I

546
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 2: don't know, do you watch the middle cap? You need to.

547
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 2: There's it's they're so it's so good. So let's bring

548
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,719
Speaker 2: Jane in right now. Hi, Hi, you know what, well,

549
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: I watch you every day. That probably sounds really creepy,

550
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 2: Like no, it sounds really creepy, but also like, doesn't

551
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: she look like her therapist?

552
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 4: Yes, that's crazy.

553
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you look so much like art. We we have

554
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 2: a we don't go together. We don't do a couple

555
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 2: of therapy, but I mean sometimes best friends in need

556
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: couple of therapy, but we don't. But you look so

557
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 2: much like my therapist that there's some sort of like,

558
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously I go to you know, your podcast

559
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: in your Instagram to you know, just get all the

560
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: knowledge and then to also not feel crazy, but you

561
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: just you look so much like her that. I'm like,

562
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: oh yeah, there's just like a peaceful I'm like.

563
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 8: Very like, oh, I'm glad. I'm glad that we can.

564
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 4: And her sweet voices. Sweet I know.

565
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 2: So I I, are you allowed to share some of

566
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 2: like your past at all or no? Like why like

567
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 2: how you got into speaking out and doing what you do?

568
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 8: Yeah? Yeah, okay give it to us girl, yeah anonymously.

569
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 8: So yeah, I was. I was married for thirteen years

570
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 8: and it was you know, a lot a lot of

571
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 8: women who listen to our podcast and find us on

572
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 8: social media have similar stories. So I was married, There

573
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 8: was there was infidelity, there was pornography, There was a

574
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 8: lot of that just betrayal, and I thought it was

575
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 8: sex addiction. So I did. I went the sex addiction

576
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 8: route that a lot of us go on. You know.

577
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 8: We went to c SATs, which are certified sexual Addiction therapist,

578
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 8: and that model does the opposite of the BTR model.

579
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 8: We follow the trauma model, which is this is abuse.

580
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 8: So if this is happening to you, you are a

581
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 8: trauma victim, and there's a perpetrator and a victim in

582
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 8: that model versus the sex addiction model, which says, you know,

583
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 8: you need couples therapy, there's communication issues. He is, you know,

584
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 8: the perpetrator, the one who is cheating or the one

585
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 8: who is lying, or as doctor Omarmon Wallach calls it,

586
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 8: has a secret sexual basement. This person is a victim,

587
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 8: and so they need to almost like they're sick. And

588
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 8: so it's like it's almost like your husband is a

589
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 8: cancer victim, and it's your job to make life comfortable

590
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 8: for him and to coddle him, to give him more

591
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 8: sex and to be more attractive so that he's not

592
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 8: tempted to deviate. And this can see, this can be

593
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 8: very difficult for women in faith communities. You know, we

594
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 8: have a lot of women in the BTR community who

595
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 8: are you know, either extremely indoctrinated into their religious beliefs

596
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 8: or their married to pastors or other forms of clergy.

597
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 8: That's like a terrible hole to dig yourself out of.

598
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 8: So in my in my experience eventually going down this

599
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 8: rabbit hole of sex addiction, trying so hard to make

600
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 8: myself exactly what I thought I needed to be, I

601
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 8: I eventually started to identify emotional abuse patterns of emotional abuse.

602
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 8: And the more I tried to explain that to our therapists.

603
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 8: The more crazy I felt, the more gas my therapist

604
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 8: began gaslighting me, telling me that I was, you know,

605
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 8: finding fault, that I was not meeting my husband's needs.

606
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 8: And that's when I started googling my symptoms, you know,

607
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 8: And I think that that's a huge indicator. When you

608
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 8: start googling your symptoms, googling what other people are doing

609
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 8: in your relationship, that's a big sign that something is

610
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 8: really wrong. And that's when I started to find BTR

611
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 8: and I was like, oh my gosh, what the heck

612
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 8: is betrayal trauma? I'd never heard that phrase before in

613
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 8: my life. And I started listening to the podcast. I

614
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 8: actually don't do the podcast and does.

615
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: She's a sepoet and was also on wind Down a

616
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: few weeks ago and choose amazing. So if you haven't

617
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: heard that episode, definitely go back to listen to that one.

618
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, and using you know, using the BTR podcast as

619
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 8: well as other resources. I'm an avid reader, and I

620
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 8: started reading other books that were super helpful. They're on

621
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 8: our website as well, BTR dot org slash books. We

622
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 8: curate these books and make sure that there's nothing in

623
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 8: because I mean, there's so many books out there about betrayal, trauma, infidelity,

624
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 8: the you know, domestic abuse, covert abuse, and there's a

625
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 8: lot of victim blaming language in these books. You'll read them,

626
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 8: you'll get a couple chapters in you're like, oh, my gosh,

627
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 8: this explains my story, and then all of a sudden,

628
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 8: like and you're codependent, and you're like, I just want

629
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 8: something that will help me. But so we read these books,

630
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 8: we make sure that there's nothing in there that's going

631
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 8: to hurt you, and then we put it on our list.

632
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 8: So anyway, I started reading and learn working with BTR

633
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 8: coaches and finally figuring out that there wasn't just not

634
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 8: just to downplay it, but there wasn't just sex, you know,

635
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 8: sexual deviation and sexual acting out in my marriage. There

636
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 8: was also emotional abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse, and coercion,

637
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 8: and there was even physical abuse that I had not

638
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 8: been able to see when I was in the marriage.

639
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 8: And so for me, in my life, one of the

640
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 8: most difficult things I've ever had to do was look

641
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 8: at in the eyes and be like, I am a

642
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 8: victim of domestic abuse. I mean the shame that you

643
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 8: feel when you recognize that the fear of knowing I'm

644
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 8: gonna have to do something about this. You know, I

645
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 8: have children as well that I share with my ex husband,

646
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 8: so you know, navigating that, realizing I'm gonna have to

647
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 8: face the family court system, it was overwhelming, but I

648
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 8: was able to use BTR resources. I was able to

649
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 8: use We really love Tina Swyn from One Mom's Battle.

650
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 8: She's also on Instagram. Using those resources, there were a

651
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 8: lot of other I don't just powerful moments for myself

652
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 8: of just regaining my sense of self that helped me

653
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 8: to kind of get through to the other end. And

654
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 8: then I've always been just by I'm a writer. I've

655
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 8: been writing for a while just for different organizations, and

656
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 8: so I kind of like made my way into BTR

657
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 8: by continuously commenting on their different articles, just different things

658
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 8: I thought that they should tweak or make better. And

659
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 8: eventually and reached out to me and said, look, you

660
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 8: just want to write for us. You keep telling us

661
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 8: we should do things better. And I was like, ah, sure,

662
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 8: So that's kind of how I how I started with BTR.

663
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: That's awesome. And how are you now like with your

664
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,719
Speaker 2: do you still kind of go because I feel like

665
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: and which is why I reached out to you because

666
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: I was sending her some screenshots of me and my accent.

667
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: I was like, I feel crazy, like and I'm like

668
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: and I'm like, does this Like I'm like, I'm struggling,

669
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: and I'm just like I need to like reach out

670
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: to someone because I'm like, I, this is so hard

671
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: and it's and I go back and like this like

672
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: it's this, it's this awful cycle, you know. But I

673
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: also realized that I one of my issues but and

674
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: almost because I have to, because the co parenting is

675
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: like I engage and that's like my biggest issue is that,

676
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: like I have to stop engaging.

677
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 8: It's so difficult. I think that. And that's the nature

678
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 8: of this kind of really covert abuse is that it

679
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 8: makes you question reality all the time. You know, you're

680
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 8: always wondering, am I actually crazy? Am I the crazy one?

681
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 8: Am I starting this? Am I the abuser? And I

682
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 8: just want to say, you know, the fact that you're

683
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 8: questioning that, the fact that you care about that, indicates

684
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 8: that it's not you. Abusers don't care about how their

685
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 8: behavior affects other people, only to the extent of how

686
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 8: that's going to affect their image. So they might be like,

687
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 8: oh my gosh, I freaked out. You know, they might

688
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 8: drop their guard for a second and have a complete

689
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 8: freak out yell at everybody, you know, and then they're

690
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 8: like they will self reflect like, oh my gosh, I

691
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 8: just showed them that I'm a psycho. Now this person's

692
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 8: going to think I'm crazy. This it might affect my

693
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 8: income in some way, you know, something like that, but

694
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 8: not I hurt my family, I hurt my ex wife,

695
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 8: I hurt her heart by scaring her. They don't do that,

696
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 8: but we do, you know, we care about how it

697
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 8: hurts other peoples feeling. So just keep going back to that,

698
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,239
Speaker 8: keep going back to intent. You might do things that

699
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 8: are not in your character. You might do things that

700
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 8: are not who you are, and you might go back

701
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 8: and be like, oh my gosh, it's me. I'm crazy.

702
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 8: It's not though, it's not. You're reacting irrationally, abnormally to

703
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 8: an abnormal situation, which is healthy. That's correct.

704
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: You know what's so interesting about what you just said too,

705
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: because I'm like, you know, at one point he was like, well,

706
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: I've I've that. One day I came over and was empathetic,

707
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: and I'm like that was the morning after we had

708
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 2: that big incident in the house which I can't share,

709
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: but like where he kind of went crazy, And that

710
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 2: was that afternoon where he was like, I'm sorry, it's

711
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: like because they want to be worried about his image.

712
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 4: His image.

713
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I was like, oh my gosh, like

714
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: that just like totally clicked when you said that.

715
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 4: He said that one morning, I was.

716
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I know there's that too. What how do

717
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: you deal though with, you know, co parenting with someone

718
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: that has well that because it's narcissistic and has her

719
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: and has no empathy.

720
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 8: That's it's really hard to navigate. I think that. I mean,

721
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 8: there's a few key things. So number one, you're gonna

722
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 8: want to remember that it's important that you operate remembering

723
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 8: the legal system does not favor victims, so unfortunately you

724
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 8: kind of have to play their game. And so it

725
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 8: would be ideal, it would be amazing if you just

726
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 8: never had to see them again, drop off, pick up,

727
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 8: not speak to them, but you are going to have

728
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 8: to communicate with them. So one of the things that

729
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 8: we advocate at BTR is that you just have one

730
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 8: mode of communication. So there's a lot of apps that

731
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 8: help you with this. Things like talking parents are a

732
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 8: family wizard. I think Wyneth Paltrow made one called fair

733
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 8: fa y r. And these apps are cool because the

734
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 8: communication you have with you with your ex is quote admissible,

735
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 8: and so everything that you communicate between yourself and your

736
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 8: ex can be used in court. So you want to

737
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 8: make sure that as you're talking to your ex through

738
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 8: these that you're not doing anything that you wouldn't want

739
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 8: to judge to read. And the cool thing about that

740
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 8: is that you can really kind of you can take

741
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 8: a pause, you can take a minute and think, and

742
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 8: you can be like, all right, I want to be

743
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 8: strategic about this. I want to make sure that what

744
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 8: I'm writing here reflects not my traumatized, overwhelmed really trigger itself,

745
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 8: because he might say something like I want to buy Mary,

746
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 8: our daughter, a purple backpack, and to a judge, this

747
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 8: makes him look like a great dad. But you have

748
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 8: some kind of backstory where there's something really triggering about

749
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 8: purple backpacks, you know, and he knows that, and he

750
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 8: knows it's going to send you in a spiral. But

751
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 8: instead of being like you sichoh, I hate you so much,

752
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 8: why would you bring up a purple backpack. I hate you.

753
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 8: You're breaking my heart. You know, instead of doing that,

754
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,320
Speaker 8: you can be like wonderful, thanks Todd, you're the best

755
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 8: and send it. And then you call your best friend

756
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 8: and you freak out and you don't can get the

757
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 8: same outfit before days and you deal with your trauma, right,

758
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 8: But you have shown the court system and your ex

759
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 8: that he doesn't have the same kind of power over

760
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 8: you he once had. And because the court system is looking,

761
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 8: you know, in the event that you end up going

762
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 8: back to court, which which unfortunately does happen quite a

763
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 8: bit in these situations, because they're constantly they like it,

764
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 8: you know, they like the conflict. In the event that

765
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 8: that happens, the courts are looking for two high conflict individuals.

766
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 8: They want the back that they don't want it. But

767
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 8: they're expecting this back and forth to really immature people.

768
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 8: They just hate each other, and that's what they're expecting.

769
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 8: Your job is to show I'm not part of this dynamic.

770
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 8: He's a psycho. I'm not part of this dynamic. And

771
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 8: you don't show them that by constantly trying to expose him.

772
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 8: You just show it by being yourself, by being your authentic, warm,

773
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 8: stable self. Given me enough rope, he's going to hang himself,

774
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 8: and you can really show that through your communication with him.

775
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 2: You know what I think I was. We're just like

776
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: not good right now, and it's frustrating because you know,

777
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: my friends have seen me try to have a good

778
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 2: co parenting situation, and I think words that have been spoken.

779
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 2: I'm like, as much as I dislike you on many levels,

780
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,280
Speaker 2: I'm like, I would never say that to my to anybody,

781
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 2: and it's like it's like the I'm like, the words

782
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 2: that you're saying right now are so incredibly hurtful that

783
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't understand. And but then I you know,

784
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 2: I cry to my friends. I'm a therapist, and I'm

785
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 2: like I don't and then they're like, why do you

786
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: care if someone has been so narcissistic and you know, cheating,

787
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 2: It's like, why do you care? And I'm like I do,

788
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 2: and like, I don't know if it's it's if it's

789
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: the abuse piece or if I'm like, but every time

790
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 2: I mentioned abuse, like he's like he laughs at me

791
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 2: about it, and then that makes me then feel even

792
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 2: more crazy because I'm like, but it was like, whether

793
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: it was all the above, like it was still form

794
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: of and then he's like, well, you know you said

795
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: things to me too where you did this, and so

796
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 2: then I'm like, okay, well maybe then I did deserve

797
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: that because of X, Y and Z. So then it's

798
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: just like this constant like and then I'm like, well,

799
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: and then I want, like the abuser to like me,

800
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 2: and I'm like, why why am I trying to get

801
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 2: his approval and his He's never liked me, he's never

802
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 2: cared about me. He orady wouldn't have done X, Y

803
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 2: and Z. So I'm like and I'm like, I don't

804
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: I don't have the answer, Like I feel like I'm

805
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: I'm just stuck in that area, like why do I

806
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,919
Speaker 2: care or want his approval? Maybe because I never got

807
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: it or maybe because I'm like hello, I plague like please,

808
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: like I'm deserving of it, Like why have you never

809
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: loved me the way that?

810
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 9: Like?

811
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 2: So I don't know, like do you have any insight?

812
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 2: Because I literally yeah, therapists are like hands up, well, well, a.

813
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 8: Lot of what you're asking has to do with how

814
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 8: he thinks, and it's really important. Patricia Evans talks about

815
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 8: this in her book The verbally abusive relationship. Understand that

816
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 8: you are operating in one reality. He's operating in a

817
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 8: completely different reality. In your reality. When you've harmed somebody,

818
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 8: you want to know. For example, if you harm your

819
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 8: best friend and she's like, hey, look you hurt me,

820
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 8: you want to be like, Hey, what did I do?

821
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 8: Tell me how it felt, tell me what happened, because

822
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 8: you want to fully apologize for that. You want to

823
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 8: clear all that out, and then I guarantee you a

824
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 8: week from then. You're like, hey, are you feeling still hurt?

825
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 8: Can you talk to me about it so much? She'd

826
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 8: be like, oh my gosh, Janna, drop it. It's fine.

827
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 8: You'd be like okay, and then you know two muths

828
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 8: on the raadi and be like, okay, but are you

829
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 8: do you really forgive me? Because you care? Because that's

830
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 8: how that's the reality that healthy, normal people live in. Okay,

831
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 8: you because you live in that reality. Because we are

832
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 8: in this reality, we can study and we can learn

833
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 8: and we can get PhDs on how these how abusive

834
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 8: people think? We cannot think that way though, our brains

835
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 8: cannot go there, and so your brain is trying so

836
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 8: hard to wrap itself around the fact that he just

837
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 8: doesn't care. But you can't. You can't understand it. And

838
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 8: so to you, it's like, look, if I done what

839
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 8: you did, I would want to apologize. I would want

840
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 8: to give you closure. I would want to you know,

841
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 8: shake hands and walk away. I mean, you birthed his children.

842
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 8: You guys were together for a long time.

843
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 2: Well, and he has like and he said, like, I've

844
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: apologized a million times. I'm done apologizing. But I was like,

845
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: but you haven't apologized, and you haven't owned the ward

846
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 2: that you were abusive. And that's the piece that I missing.

847
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: I need to I need to hear you say not

848
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: because of X, Y and Z, or like I just

849
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 2: need you to say I'm sorry that I was abusive,

850
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: whether mentally all you know, just of it, just like

851
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 2: I just need you to for some reason. It's like

852
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 2: because now that I have done the research, I'm like, wow,

853
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 2: that was mentally abusive, that was emotionally or that was

854
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 2: financially abusive or you know, and it's like he just

855
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: will not take ownership of that. And it's like I

856
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: have a hard time. I just have a heard because

857
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 2: then I just feel like crazy for wanting that. I

858
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 2: guess and.

859
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 8: It's not enough that everybody else affirms it and tells

860
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 8: you and books and therapists and everyone else. You want

861
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 8: it from the perpetrator because that's what normal people do,

862
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 8: that's what healthy people do. And I think that you know,

863
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 8: it's going to take some acceptance just to realize you're

864
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 8: never going to get it from him. He will never

865
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 8: validate that, he will never give you that kind of closure.

866
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 8: That kind of closure is going to have to come

867
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 8: from you accepting reality for what it is. And when

868
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 8: you've been gas lit for so long and betrayed for

869
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 8: I mean betrayal, it selptic is a huge toll because

870
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 8: your whole reality changes. You thought things were one way

871
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 8: when there was a completely different reality happening behind the

872
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 8: scenes that changed, you know.

873
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 5: And it was you.

874
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 2: Then they they blame you for that. Well, if you

875
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: didn't do this, or if you didn't like he was

876
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 2: always like, well if you were you know, if you

877
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: didn't say this, like I would have been nicer to you.

878
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: And I'm like, what, like, it's just like and then

879
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, then I stay because I'm like, Okay,

880
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 2: you're right, that was my fault, you know, or it's

881
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 2: so it's hard for you because you know you have

882
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: things blocked and you can't see certain things, or you know,

883
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 2: it's I don't want you going out at three am

884
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: to a bar or whatever like that's yeah, you're right,

885
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: that's my fault. I'm sorry.

886
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, that's gaslighting. I mean, gaslighting has tremendous, horrible

887
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 8: consequences on our brains over time. It's going to take

888
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 8: you time to heal from that. Just surrounding yourself with

889
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 8: people who just constantly are affirming to you that your

890
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 8: reality is real, that you see things how they are,

891
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 8: that you can trust your intuition. I think as that happens,

892
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 8: it's going to be easier for you to let go

893
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 8: of the fact that he is denying this, that he

894
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 8: won't admit to it, and it's just gonna be enough

895
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 8: for you to say I know, and your friends say like,

896
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 8: I know, we know that you know. You know, And eventually,

897
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 8: some day, as your children get older, eventually if you

898
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 8: want this to be part of their story, they'll say,

899
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 8: we know that you know. And you'll have this group

900
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 8: of support, of a support system that believes your story,

901
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 8: and you won't need him to admit it. He was

902
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 8: there he knows. He knows. Okay, they know what they're doing.

903
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 8: He will never give you the kind of closure that

904
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 8: you need. But you don't need it from him because

905
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 8: it's inside of you. You just can't feel it yet

906
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 8: because he programmed you not to.

907
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: Do you think that the person that he's portraying or

908
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 2: the you know after that, Like, do you think people

909
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 2: like that stay the same or do you think they

910
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,439
Speaker 2: can change? So like the perception of who they are today,

911
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: because you know, he's out of a shame now, and

912
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 2: you know, he always says like that, I'm wanting to

913
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: keep him in a shame like I'm not. I do

914
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 2: That's the thing, Like, I don't want you in your shame.

915
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 2: I just want the apology that I know that I deserve,

916
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 2: you know I.

917
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 8: Okay, yeah, And there's so much to that. I believe.

918
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 8: I believe in shame. I believe that when people do

919
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 8: shameful things, they should feel ashamed. I feel shame when

920
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 8: I do shameful things, and it's good because it helps

921
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 8: me to realize I'm not operating on a healthy level.

922
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 8: And I believe the word shame is weaponized by abusive

923
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 8: men all the time to try to shift responsibility and

924
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 8: accountability onto their partners. I hear it happen all the time.

925
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 8: Your desire for him to affirm the level of hurt

926
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 8: that he has caused you and your family is not

927
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 8: keeping him in his shame. It's simply you expressing the

928
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 8: pain that you're in and for him to be like, oh,

929
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 8: I want you to stop this now so that I

930
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 8: don't feel bad for what I've done to you. That

931
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 8: in itself sounds very much to me like emotional abuse.

932
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 8: So so there's that.

933
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: I have a little, a little, a little asterisk to that,

934
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: but I doesn't he he has a point, though, like

935
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: to affirm his side. We are divorced, I should move on.

936
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: So when he says move on, we're divorce, get over it,

937
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 2: mm hmm, Like he has a point. We are I

938
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 2: need to move on, I need to get over it.

939
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 8: I okay, I'm I'm You're going No, you don't need

940
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 8: to move on and get over anything. You deserve. I'm

941
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 8: gonna change that, and I hope you can change that

942
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 8: thought in your mind too. You deserve to be loved

943
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 8: and to heal, rather than I need to move on,

944
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 8: I need to get over it. That's him speaking. I

945
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 8: hear women say things where I'm like, that's your abuse

946
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 8: are talking, not you, that's his voice in your head,

947
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 8: not you. Rather, you deserve validation and healing. And it's

948
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 8: gonna come saying you need to get over such a

949
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 8: traumatic event. It's literally like saying to somebody who is

950
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 8: hit by a car who's still asking the person who

951
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 8: hit their car and is saying, look, I need an apology.

952
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 8: You you know they were let's change this analogy. They

953
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 8: were driving the car on purpose. They hit a tree

954
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 8: with the car fully knowing that there was a passenger

955
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 8: in the car. Okay, and then you know, you get divorced,

956
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 8: you move on. Years later, you're like, hey, when you

957
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 8: rammed our car into that tree, it scared me, It

958
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 8: hurt me. It it made me have a really hard

959
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 8: time getting in cars with men. Okay, I would like

960
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 8: an apology. He says, get over it. It was years ago.

961
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,919
Speaker 8: We're divorced now. Yeah, so you can see a couple

962
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 8: issues there. He was a psycho to drive that into

963
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 8: a tree. Maybe don't talk to him because he's crazy, right,

964
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,439
Speaker 8: but it makes sense that you want that apology from him.

965
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 8: He should be giving you. He should be doing a

966
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 8: lot of things to make restitution for what he did

967
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 8: to you. He's not doing them. It makes sense that

968
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 8: your brain is like, I want more than what I'm getting, right,

969
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 8: But what would you say to that passenger. You wouldn't

970
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 8: say get over it. You would say, oh my gosh,

971
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,919
Speaker 8: what can I do for you? What do you need

972
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 8: to heal? So I want you to treat yourself with

973
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 8: that same kind of compassion, because you have been through

974
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 8: serious trauma and he's treating it like a splinter when

975
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 8: this is this is an emergency room visit. This is

976
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 8: an icy U S day, not a splinter with a

977
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 8: little band aid, right, Yeah.

978
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I know. It's just when

979
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 2: you hear those things, I'm like, oh, like all the

980
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: seven years of the gaslighting and the manipulation and making

981
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 2: me feel crazy, it just is still here today, and

982
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,439
Speaker 2: it's just like I it's just it's taken a lot

983
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 2: more time than I but it's also I've discovered so

984
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: many more things too about what it really was, and

985
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,919
Speaker 2: like oh wow, like I wasn't crazy, but there's still

986
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: times where I still believe that, like I am crazy

987
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 2: because of all the things that were said to me,

988
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: you know, like the proof right in front of I mean,

989
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 2: Catherine would sit in there when I would be like,

990
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 2: tell me your secret email account. I don't have one.

991
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 2: I me and Katherine just read through all of it,

992
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 2: you know, and it's like just it's like even those

993
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 2: memories come and I'm like, oh, but maybe he really

994
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 2: didn't have one, but like we had the roof right there,

995
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 2: you know, like and it's like this is have my

996
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: friend's witness too, just to be like this slapping me.

997
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 2: It's like hello, you know, like wake up.

998
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 4: And I think too, I think we understand why you care.

999
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 4: You know, if we ever say the words why do

1000
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,439
Speaker 4: you care, I think we all understand why you care

1001
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 4: and why you need to be validated and why you

1002
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 4: need that apology. I think it's more what she said

1003
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 4: earlier that we know you're never going to get it.

1004
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 4: He is never going to validate that for you. So

1005
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 4: it's us praying for you to get to a place

1006
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 4: where you can do that to yourself, where you can

1007
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 4: give yourself the closure, not him, because we all can

1008
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 4: see it because we haven't been abused by him. You know,

1009
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 4: you still can't.

1010
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 2: Fully I mean, you see it, but you have though

1011
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 2: he lied to you true, just as much as he

1012
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 2: lied to everybody listening to the podcast, just as much

1013
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: as he lied to you know people on Mondays.

1014
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 4: He did not retrain my brain.

1015
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 2: He didn't believe didn't believe him.

1016
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 4: No, not really, if I'm being honest, No, not really.

1017
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 4: I mean sure there were times and little things that

1018
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 4: I wanted to believe that, But our brain was not

1019
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 4: abused like yours. You know, we were not treated that fully.

1020
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 4: So we can see that you aren't going to get

1021
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 4: what you want. You still want it. I see it

1022
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 4: in the text between y'all. Now you still want it,

1023
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 4: you still expect it, you still have this hope for

1024
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 4: it that you're not.

1025
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 2: Going I don't want to be hate. You know what

1026
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: my thing is. I'm like, yes, I want people to

1027
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 2: like me. That's it's a bad quality to have. I

1028
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 2: want everyone to like me, and I want one hundred

1029
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 2: percent of proven rights normal, which I know i'll never get.

1030
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 2: But like the person that has hurt me the worst,

1031
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 2: I don't know how he could hate me. That's the

1032
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: part that baffles me. That's the part that hurts so bad.

1033
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: I'm like, how can you hate me when you destroyed everything?

1034
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 2: But yeah, you blame me. He oh, I don't think

1035
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: he loves me.

1036
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think he hates you. He hates himself,

1037
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 4: but he can't admit that. I do not, for I

1038
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 4: do not believe that he actually hates you and fully

1039
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 4: blames you. I don't believe it. I think he knows,

1040
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 4: but he's never going to admit it. That's my opinion.

1041
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 2: But I mean, I don't know, but in my my

1042
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 2: brain knows it triggers you well, yeah, and it just

1043
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 2: baffles me. I just don't understand how someone can hate I, Like,

1044
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 2: I gave a million chances. I tried as hard as

1045
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: I could, and it was like, but yet I was

1046
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: I was controlling and I was this, and it's like, well,

1047
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: yeah I did. I was controlling at times for sure,

1048
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,919
Speaker 2: because I was feking, terrified that like you were gonna

1049
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 2: cheat again, and five million times later you did again,

1050
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 2: you know, Like, but I'm like, how do you?

1051
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: How do you?

1052
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 2: How does that person hate me? Like that's the part

1053
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: that just doesn't make sense to me.

1054
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 8: And it doesn't and it won't make sense because you're

1055
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 8: in You're in reality one and he's in reality too.

1056
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 8: It cannot make sense. And it's almost at some point

1057
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 8: you're going to be grateful for this because you're going

1058
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 8: to realize you're healthy and he's not healthy.

1059
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 2: But maybe but he's he seems so healthy right now.

1060
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 2: That's the thing, Like he seems so like Yeah, I

1061
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 2: mean he's too you know, he's he's going to mend's

1062
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 2: like all these things, and I'm just like, man like, okay.

1063
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 4: But even you's communication with each other's divorced people is

1064
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 4: not healthy. Yeah know, it's going to them so and

1065
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 4: I want to point that out. You saying that he

1066
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 4: seems healthy to me couldn't be further from the truth.

1067
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 2: But maybe it's because he hates me that much. I'm like,

1068
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 2: maybe he'd like truly just and then I get so upset.

1069
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 4: I think that if he's healthy and he hated you

1070
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 4: that much, he could still be respectful.

1071
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 2: I mean I do, is what I'm saying. Well, I mean,

1072
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: I do call him a narcissist, but that's not very nice.

1073
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 9: But truth, Jane's like, they will always hate, they will

1074
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 9: they will always hate people or or you know, honestly,

1075
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 9: like I'm not jury's out on what kinds of emotions,

1076
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 9: these kinds of people actually feel hatred to you.

1077
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 8: Means something different to him. Love to you mean something

1078
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 8: completely different to him, to this kind. To an abusive person,

1079
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 8: love is what can I get from you? What? What

1080
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 8: do you give to me to boost my image? You know,

1081
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 8: to make me more financially comfortable? You know, how can

1082
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 8: I use you? That's love? So then what would hate me?

1083
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 8: You're not giving me anything anymore. You're not giving me

1084
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 8: what you used to give me. I have no use

1085
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 8: for you. You're hurting my image. So, yeah, he hates you.

1086
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 8: You're hurting his image by telling the truth. You're being

1087
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:07,439
Speaker 8: a whistleblower. You're telling you're bringing awareness to narcissistic abuse. Yeah,

1088
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 8: he hates you. Okay, you're telling that good. You know

1089
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 8: you're doing a noble good thing here. And you know,

1090
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 8: I mean what you're asking. Every every single ex wife

1091
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 8: or ex partner of an abuser asked tod, why did

1092
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 8: he hate you in the first place? Because abuse is

1093
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 8: not love. Abuse is hatred, abuse and betrayal. Why would

1094
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 8: he have done any of those things? You know, and

1095
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,879
Speaker 8: you can some therapists, you know, sexual addiction therapists will

1096
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 8: be like, oh, unfulfilled needs, blah blah blah. It was

1097
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 8: abuse and abuse comes down to power and control. That

1098
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 8: did not change once you got divorced. It's still about

1099
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 8: power and control. He was trying to exert power and

1100
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 8: control when you were married, and now that you're divorced,

1101
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 8: same thing as his access to you. So through texting

1102
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 8: or emails or however you're communicating, he's going to continue

1103
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 8: to try to be the center of your universe. And

1104
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 8: he's going to continue to try to control you through that.

1105
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 8: Control your emotions, control your time, you know, control your

1106
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 8: health if you're not keeping very well. He knows, and

1107
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 8: he likes it. He likes knowing how much he's affecting

1108
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 8: your life. He enjoys it. Okay, and I can tell

1109
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 8: you that just because they're all the same, you know,

1110
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 8: they all kind of operate the same way.

1111
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 2: What's your advice then, for someone dealing with someone who's

1112
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 2: got guess you know, a gas slider narcissist. Is it

1113
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 2: just no communication or is it just I mean, like

1114
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 2: ken you said, like okay, thank you?

1115
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 8: In yeah, I mean you can't you can't go no

1116
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 8: contact completely. If you share children, I would say limit

1117
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 8: your contact to logistics, use something, use a parenting app

1118
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,479
Speaker 8: like Talking Parents or whatever. So you just have one

1119
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 8: route of communication and then just talk to them about logistics.

1120
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 8: One are you picking up the kids? You know, if

1121
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 8: one of the kids is sick, Yeah, she had a fever.

1122
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 8: She's doing okay though, so and so it's getting braces

1123
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 8: on this day. Let's you know, John has a birthday

1124
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 8: on Friday. You can have him in the morning. I'll

1125
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 8: have him in the afternoon. Just keep it limited to

1126
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 8: things like that, only parenting, only logistical issues. He's not

1127
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 8: the person to process your trauma with. He will not

1128
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 8: validate it. And if he tries to bring you down

1129
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 8: that wormhole, you just need to have some because you know,

1130
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 8: I can tell you this, the moment that you change

1131
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 8: your energy towards him, the moment that you stop trying

1132
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 8: to squeeze water out of that rock, he's gonna come

1133
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 8: after you. He's I get you know. He probably listens

1134
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 8: to your podcast and he probably hates me right now

1135
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 8: and he's so he might he might wait a little

1136
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 8: while to do this, but I guarantee at some point

1137
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 8: he's going to say something like I miss you, I

1138
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 8: don't know why you know I I or I wish

1139
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 8: I would like some closure on this. Can we meet

1140
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 8: and can we talk about it? He eventually, if you

1141
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 8: stop giving him the supply, the attention that he's used to,

1142
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,919
Speaker 8: and with narcissism we call the supply, he will try

1143
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 8: to get it back from you. And but you're not

1144
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 8: going to give it because you're you're going to fill

1145
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 8: your life up with these other supportive people and you're

1146
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 8: gonna be able to say, I'm sorry, I'm not interested

1147
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,800
Speaker 8: in going down that road. I only want to communicate

1148
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 8: with you about our children. We can be the best

1149
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 8: co parents we can be. And then you're just going

1150
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 8: to leave it there. Yeah, and then and then he's

1151
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 8: going to go off, And unfortunately there will be other

1152
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 8: you know, other people will have to deal with this

1153
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 8: abusive person. But but you are going to fill your

1154
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 8: life with safe people and just move forward.

1155
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 2: And I will say it's my fault. I mean, he's

1156
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 2: you know, I'm the one that keeps being like, hey,

1157
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 2: you know, I really need closure from the and it's

1158
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: like I just need to know I won't get it,

1159
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 2: so I just need to stop because I mean, in

1160
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 2: his defense, like, yeah, I you know, he thinks I'm

1161
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 2: wanting to bring up a shame.

1162
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 5: I'm not.

1163
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 2: But I can see like how he may think that

1164
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 2: that's what I'm trying to do. I just would like

1165
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 2: to get that full of closure and you know that, Yeah,

1166
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 2: I will say, like, that's definitely my fault that I'm

1167
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 2: the one that like keeps wanting to like have those

1168
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 2: conversations and I'm the one drugg you know, a drug,

1169
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 2: judging up the past, you know.

1170
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 8: So don't blame yourself. Don't blame yourself. Keep keep that analogy.

1171
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 8: It seemed like that clicked. You have been in serious

1172
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 8: traumatic situations with this guy. Okay, don't please, don't. I

1173
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 8: hear him in your head. I hear him like, I

1174
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,399
Speaker 8: feel like you have been through so much and you're

1175
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 8: expecting a lot out of yourself that is more than

1176
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 8: you should be expecting. Of Course you want closure, of

1177
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 8: course you want these things. I think that working with

1178
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 8: your therapist whatever, you know, you know what you need.

1179
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 8: But I just think a huge dose of compassion at

1180
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 8: beach here. That's like one of our biggest platforms is

1181
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,280
Speaker 8: that self care is really just a ton of compassion

1182
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 8: for yourself. The things that you're doing that you're like, oh,

1183
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 8: it's my fault, this doesn't make sense. It makes sense.

1184
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 8: You are a victim of abuse, you know, and when

1185
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 8: you look at other abusive women or you think about

1186
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 8: other abusive women, I know that we're all like, oh

1187
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 8: my gosh, that poor woman. I can't believe she went

1188
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 8: through that. That's you, so see yourself that way, you know.

1189
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm something's interesting that came up there day

1190
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 2: because Hughes always say that I and I will admit

1191
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 2: to this too. I had always had a really hard

1192
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 2: time apologizing, but when I did apologize, I would really

1193
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 2: mean it, you know, like if there was something you know,

1194
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 2: that I did that upset him. But I feel like

1195
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 2: because I have, you know, I'm now in a new relationship,

1196
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 2: but I feel like because of my past, I'm constantly

1197
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,240
Speaker 2: having to be like, I'm sorry, that's my past triggers,

1198
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,839
Speaker 2: and that's like this just came up for me. It

1199
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 2: has nothing to do with you, and you've been amazing,

1200
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 2: but like this is like what what I feel, and

1201
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, and it's like I just I've realized how

1202
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 2: much baggage I have in my new relationship that it's

1203
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 2: actually like this apart makes sad, Like I feel it's

1204
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 2: like it's so unfair to like him, you know, because

1205
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's not fair, like that, like my like

1206
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 2: my is now like all over his side, you know.

1207
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1208
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:42,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, Choosing like a partner post trauma is a really

1209
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 8: interesting thing because you're gonna need to, you know, find

1210
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 8: someone or let someone find you who is extremely compassionate.

1211
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 8: It's a gift to be with a trauma victim. Trauma

1212
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 8: victims are some of the most compassionate, loving, sensitive, affectionate

1213
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 8: people on the planet. And why because we know what

1214
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 8: it's like to be so desperately lonely in a relationship.

1215
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 8: We have a ton of love to give. We are

1216
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 8: we're honest to a fault because we've been accused of

1217
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 8: being liars. You know, We're so self reflective, and so

1218
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 8: we require incredible partners. So make sure that whoever you

1219
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 8: decide to be with understands, you know, rather than being like,

1220
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 8: oh my gosh, I'm so grateful that anybody wants to

1221
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 8: be with me because I'm so pathetic. You know what, andership,

1222
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 8: if the mindset to understanding being with you is a

1223
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 8: huge privilege. And I hope all trauma victims who are

1224
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 8: hearing this understand that we have gone through the ringer

1225
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 8: and we have come out wounded, yes, but as incredible partners.

1226
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:44,439
Speaker 8: And so anybody who's with us does have to be,

1227
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 8: you know, very trauma sensitive, very understanding, and very willing

1228
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 8: to work through difficult moments with us. But it's very

1229
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 8: rewarding to be the partner of a trauma victim. So

1230
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 8: he's very lucky to be with you. It is going

1231
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 8: to be a hard time, a hard period of time

1232
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 8: to work through, but you know, there are books he

1233
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 8: can read, he can get a therapist, he can listen

1234
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 8: to podcasts, he can be there for you through this,

1235
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 8: and that's that is what is going to be required

1236
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 8: for the relationship to work.

1237
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: Jane, thank you so much for just coming on. And

1238
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 2: I appreciate you, and I'm sorry that I you know,

1239
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 2: DMD you the other day being like I don't.

1240
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 8: Say sorry, no, no, no no. We get messages a

1241
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 8: lot like that, and I just and I feel like

1242
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 8: I just wish I could tell everybody, every single person

1243
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 8: who messages us, who comes through with that you're not crazy.

1244
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 8: You're not crazy, You're not nobody. We're not crazy.

1245
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 2: Jane, can where can everybody find the Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

1246
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 2: It's on Instagram.

1247
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,880
Speaker 8: We're on Instagram. We're on TikTok. Our handle on TikTok

1248
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 8: is BTR dot org. You can find us on Apple

1249
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 8: podcasts just the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, and then our

1250
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 8: website is BTR dot org.

1251
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 2: Jane, you're the best. Thank you and I will be

1252
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 2: dming you again very soon.

1253
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 8: Thank you so much. Right bye, bye girl bye.

1254
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 4: I love her, adore her.

1255
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 2: I know, I watch her all the time. I just

1256
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 2: love her videos.

1257
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 4: I feel like she's a good one for you. Yeah,

1258
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 4: Like I feel like you like really kind of heard her.

1259
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love but I every day I like listen

1260
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 2: to her go on her Instagram and I'm like, yes, yes,

1261
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 2: And then I like, I don't know, but it's okay.

1262
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 4: We're giving, we're having compassion for that.

1263
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, she's really great. But well hopefully that helps

1264
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 2: a lot of people, you know. I it's so hard,

1265
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 2: like because I'm kind of in that spot where you know,

1266
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 2: I want to be happy, but then there's also things

1267
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 2: that like going through. But it's it's been really nice

1268
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 2: because so many people, I think, are you know some

1269
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 2: of the stuff that I've been putting out there about

1270
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 2: narcissist or gas you know, gaslighting phrases, and people are like,

1271
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 2: oh my god, I never realized that. Now I'm they're like,

1272
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 2: thank you for you know, talking about it. So at

1273
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 2: least I feel like I'm like, okay.

1274
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 4: You're definitely helping people for sure, which.

1275
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 2: Makes me feel better.

1276
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 4: I don't think people really fully understand gaslighting and what

1277
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 4: is considered all forms of abuse and narcissism, you know,

1278
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 4: so it's helpful.

1279
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 11: You know.

1280
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 2: One of the things too, one of the gaslighting phrases.

1281
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 2: I was like, oh shoot, I used to say that.

1282
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 2: I'd be like, I'm sorry you feel that way. Mm hmm.

1283
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 2: That's actually technically gaslighting. I could say that you're supposed

1284
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 2: to say like I'm sorry, because it's not.

1285
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 4: Really taking ownership of what you did. It's saying how

1286
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 4: you yeah perceived the situation.

1287
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 2: I wrote it down or actually saut the other day

1288
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 2: because I was like, oh crap, it's more about.

1289
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 4: What I was gonna say. He used to say that.

1290
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 4: I remember that vividly.

1291
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 2: That's where I thought.

1292
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 4: I think I got it from I'm sorry you feel

1293
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:49,959
Speaker 4: that way. I'm sorry you feel that way.

1294
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 2: No, it should be i'm sorry that you're feeling this way.

1295
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 2: I have to look at it.

1296
01:00:58,200 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 4: It was it was I'm sorry for what I do.

1297
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 2: I know you say I'm then also it's like I

1298
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 2: admit that that is hurtful, and what I loved in

1299
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 2: it too is the correction, like, how what can I

1300
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 2: do so that it doesn't affect you that way? You know?

1301
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 2: Is there anything that I can do to help when

1302
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 2: I love that? Right? Like asking someone like because you

1303
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 2: don't sometimes like you don't mean to hurt the person, sure,

1304
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 2: Like I wouldn't know that if I, Oh my god, Cather,

1305
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 2: I have no idea that I hurt you that I'm

1306
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 2: so sorry? What can I do Instead of saying I'm sorry?

1307
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 2: I feel like, what can I do so that that

1308
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 2: doesn't happen?

1309
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 6: Right?

1310
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 4: Yeah? I know for sure?

1311
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 2: Is there anything that I need to say sorry for?

1312
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 2: I'm sorry? I feel that way? All right, guys, talk

1313
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:39,919
Speaker 2: to you next week.