Speaker 1: Off the Record is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of Off the Record.
Speaker 1: My name's Jordan Runtug. Thanks so much for listening. We've
Speaker 1: discussed the making of Bowie's landmark track Heroes, one of
Speaker 1: the most mythic songs in his cannon. Everything about its
Speaker 1: creation is loaded with drama. It was recorded in an
Speaker 1: old Nazi concert hall, within sight of watchful East German
Speaker 1: snipers atop the Berlin Wall, and of course there was
Speaker 1: the famous Kiss by the Wall, which supposedly inspired one
Speaker 1: of the songs best known verses. My guests today not
Speaker 1: only worked at the legendary Hansa Studios, the so called
Speaker 1: Hall by the Wall where Heroes was recorded, he actually
Speaker 1: sang on it eye to eye with Bowie himself. And
Speaker 1: that's just one of his many incredible stories. His name
Speaker 1: is Peter Bergen, and he worked as an assistant engineer
Speaker 1: under our previous guest du Meyer. When Harry Meyer was
Speaker 1: on vacation for much of the sessions for Heroes in seven,
Speaker 1: Peter stepped up and took over. He helped achieve the
Speaker 1: epic expansive sound of the title track, and he also
Speaker 1: helped get this gargantuan drum sounds on Lust for Life
Speaker 1: by Iggy Pop, whom he still refers to by his
Speaker 1: given name, Jimmy. Peter did all of this, and he
Speaker 1: still found time to bring David's son to school on occasion.
Speaker 1: Our conversation was a joy. Peter shared his memories, busted
Speaker 1: some tall tales, and provided fascinating insight into the man
Speaker 1: and his music. You know, basically the story of me
Speaker 1: with David was I began as as assistant in around
Speaker 1: the Hands and when when Low was done, um, but
Speaker 1: because basically there wasn't a lot of work to be done,
Speaker 1: because they basically just mixed it. They mastered the Low
Speaker 1: because most of the recording was done. There was a
Speaker 1: few bits and pieces done on top during Low. But
Speaker 1: I wasn't around much. But I've met him sort of
Speaker 1: rub shoulders with Wisconti. I don't think we jelled then.
Speaker 1: Then obviously, in seventy seven, when David came back with
Speaker 1: Jimmy for Lust for Life, we went to a different studio.
Speaker 1: We were in Studio three. Then Studio three was completely
Speaker 1: up and running because they had been completely rebuilt and
Speaker 1: we weren't able to record in the Great Hall. Yes,
Speaker 1: so we did hear Lust for Life in Studio three,
Speaker 1: which was downstairs the hands up and was authoroughly modern studio.
Speaker 1: I would have said for that time period, it was
Speaker 1: probably stated meant to juice state of the art, you know,
Speaker 1: they were they were looking at the other studios and thinking, okay,
Speaker 1: how can we be probably the most polished studio to be.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen any photos of Studio three.
Speaker 1: I saw with the old wood paneling and the and
Speaker 1: the recess lights and everything. Yeah, it looks very it
Speaker 1: was all that. Yeah, it was really really plush. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: I don't think the the ambiance was quite as good,
Speaker 1: and it probably suited more more German pop at the
Speaker 1: time than they suited anything else. So when we did
Speaker 1: Last for Life, Ado and I had been experimenting with
Speaker 1: trying to get more sound out of the studios. So
Speaker 1: we we we might the drum kid out in the
Speaker 1: big part of the studio instead of you know, having
Speaker 1: it confined in the drum drum boost like most drums
Speaker 1: were recorded back in those days. We were looking for
Speaker 1: to get more of a booming sound from from drums,
Speaker 1: which is what we like. So so I was sort
Speaker 1: of feeding of Ado, and it was feeding of myself
Speaker 1: the way we wanted because I did a lot of
Speaker 1: live live work at the time, mixing live bands and
Speaker 1: doing live work because I managed a few bands, which
Speaker 1: is how I actually got into the music side and
Speaker 1: got into the hands up. So we were looking looking
Speaker 1: at that side of it, and of course David was
Speaker 1: working there anywhere as producer on that on that album
Speaker 1: with a lot of with a lot of artistic input,
Speaker 1: and we had a guy called Colin Thurston. I don't
Speaker 1: know how they've picked up on Colin in London. Colin
Speaker 1: had been working in London at the time, so he
Speaker 1: came across and I think he's actually listed as producer
Speaker 1: on the album. Although ringing David did most of the production.
Speaker 1: David and Jimmy handler most of the production side of it,
Speaker 1: and Ado and myself handling engineering side of it, you know,
Speaker 1: of course in the front seat, and I was just
Speaker 1: sitting in the backseat putting in my input. And that
Speaker 1: was really my first time of working together with David.
Speaker 1: What what I did appreciate at that time with David
Speaker 1: was I had a couple of ideas for the way
Speaker 1: of doing some of the backing vocals and Philosopher Life.
Speaker 1: You know this very high pitched Lust for Life. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: part of it, and that was part of my import
Speaker 1: into that. And David said, yeah, well come on go
Speaker 1: and record it. And David yeah, and so I sort
Speaker 1: of laughed and I went, well, okay, yeah that was it.
Speaker 1: And then Al said, yeah, go get in the studio.
Speaker 1: We'll put the micup, and put the micup. And I
Speaker 1: did this that Lust for Life and did a bit
Speaker 1: of backing vocals on Lust for Life. I also sung
Speaker 1: backing vocals together with David on Passenger. So if you
Speaker 1: listen to the backing vocus on Passenger, that's staying myself
Speaker 1: doing the backing vocal. Was that intimidating? Was that scary
Speaker 1: to too this thing with him? Well, well it wasn't
Speaker 1: really intimidating. What it was was I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: we'll go back really in history now. I met Jimmy
Speaker 1: Hendrix when I was fifteen in Berlin and a concert.
Speaker 1: Yeah wow, that is it. You know for fifteen year
Speaker 1: old that trips are like fantastic. And most most of
Speaker 1: my my time after that was going to live concerts
Speaker 1: and I met a lot of musicians live in the
Speaker 1: Deutschtann Howe, because I used to work as a like
Speaker 1: a age monitor and running around. Because I spoke German
Speaker 1: and English, I was able to get into the live
Speaker 1: venue as on a working basis, So you know, I
Speaker 1: did things like just making sure that the band were
Speaker 1: happy and the roadies had everything they wanted when they
Speaker 1: were arriving. If anything were short, I made sure they
Speaker 1: got it, and so things like that. So I saw
Speaker 1: a lot of live music in Berlin and I got
Speaker 1: involved in a lot of live side but I always
Speaker 1: wanted to be an artist. My unfortunate situation is I'm
Speaker 1: no good you know. You know, I can play a
Speaker 1: three chord twelve bar but I wouldn't even be as
Speaker 1: good as stay this quote, so oh you know, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's what I'm saying. So you know, my limitations
Speaker 1: were enormous. But I had a lot of influence on
Speaker 1: a lot of the local musicians and a lot of
Speaker 1: the local bands, and I got my put bands together.
Speaker 1: I managed a lot of the bands on the live
Speaker 1: scene in Berlin, which is how I ended up meeting Adam.
Speaker 1: So so when David said, you know, let's do these
Speaker 1: vocals for me, it was like, yeah, but why me,
Speaker 1: you know, I can't see. But but David I found
Speaker 1: always to be somebody he'd like to encourage people. Now,
Speaker 1: I don't know what he was trying to encourage me for,
Speaker 1: because I was never going to be be an artist,
Speaker 1: you know, But but but he knew. I think I
Speaker 1: wanted wanted to produce. I wanted to produce my own artists,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to get things going. So I was
Speaker 1: working very hard on that, and David seemed to encourage
Speaker 1: me there. Um. But then when he came to Heroes
Speaker 1: and Tony was we spent a week just David and
Speaker 1: myself in the studio before anybody else arrived, while equipment
Speaker 1: was arriving and bits and pieces like that which I
Speaker 1: was looking after the whole issue, and David was in
Speaker 1: the studio playing piano, playing a bit of guitar, trying
Speaker 1: to work out what he wanted to put together at
Speaker 1: that this new album before anybody arrived. And then when
Speaker 1: was cont arrived, he was very very disappointed. But I think,
Speaker 1: you know, in retrospect, I'm I'm thinking this, I think
Speaker 1: he was very disappointed that Ada wasn't there, and I
Speaker 1: think he was looking at me and going, well, you know,
Speaker 1: why have we've been given the the the the amateur.
Speaker 1: Why have we've been given this guy? You know that
Speaker 1: who is he and what is he? He had this
Speaker 1: arrogance about him that, you know, he was the guy
Speaker 1: that knew everything, and I was probably not fit to
Speaker 1: be there. But unfortunately because of the workings of the
Speaker 1: studio and studio too was actually quite basic. Why we
Speaker 1: had lots of problems with wiring. It was historically, you know,
Speaker 1: trying to get everything sorted. You know, he needed somebody
Speaker 1: to understood the studio because he wouldn't be able to
Speaker 1: it was. It was back as if it wasn't straightforward,
Speaker 1: and so I needed to be there, but I don't
Speaker 1: think he wanted me to be there. And then subsequently,
Speaker 1: when we got all the music down, on all the
Speaker 1: music tracks and all that part of it, they started
Speaker 1: working on the vocals. But once again I had to
Speaker 1: be there to sort of make sure the studio was
Speaker 1: operated and make sure that mikes were put in the
Speaker 1: right place. And you know, just on the Heroes thing,
Speaker 1: he talks about that the way he set the mics
Speaker 1: up and set them up through gates. Well, you see,
Speaker 1: my problem is we didn't have the gates he's talking
Speaker 1: about back in Hansa and I have an email from
Speaker 1: our technician, our studio technician, when I cleared him about
Speaker 1: this quite a while ago, and I said, you know,
Speaker 1: Teddy Tony was gone. He's talking about these microphone gates
Speaker 1: that he set up to do the vocals of David
Speaker 1: on Heroes that you know, the one microphone would cut
Speaker 1: in after the next one and the next one close
Speaker 1: up on the middle one and the further one. But
Speaker 1: we didn't. We didn't have that. Now, my remembrance of it,
Speaker 1: and I say, it's my remembrance of it the way
Speaker 1: we did it. We did everything mangrly. We had different
Speaker 1: mics set up. Now I can't recall it being three
Speaker 1: mic set up, but I know there was two mics
Speaker 1: set up, so he professes there were three. I don't
Speaker 1: recall it being three, probably to remember we having to
Speaker 1: cut from mike to mike going that way manually. Everything
Speaker 1: had to be done. But but it all went down
Speaker 1: on one track because that was all they had left. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's all we had left. And I mean, and you
Speaker 1: have to look at it in this way. The only
Speaker 1: people in the studio at the time with David Tony
Speaker 1: and myself, So the only three people that know how
Speaker 1: things were put together. Then those three people, those three
Speaker 1: individuals um and in his interviews with the BBC, he
Speaker 1: he uses Adamyer did this and Ado Meyer did that. Well,
Speaker 1: Aidamyer was in the Caribbean on the beach um. But
Speaker 1: so basically he just has never ever said Peter berg
Speaker 1: And did this, or Peter did this, or Peter did anything.
Speaker 1: So I was sorting to another journalist and he said
Speaker 1: he's One of his opening statements was he said, I
Speaker 1: don't understand any of this, Peter. You have been airbrushed
Speaker 1: out of heroes. There is no mention anywhere of you
Speaker 1: working on heroes. And I went, okay, but that's fine.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not a big deal out of my
Speaker 1: life because I other was there. I didn't get paid
Speaker 1: in the extra. I was paid a pittance at the
Speaker 1: time because I was on an assistant assistant retainer, which
Speaker 1: was useless. I lived outside the studio in a in
Speaker 1: a caravan, you know, in the trailer as you would
Speaker 1: call them in the States, outside Pat Stammer plants. Yeah,
Speaker 1: right outside the studio in because I couldn't have formed
Speaker 1: an apartment. On the wages I was getting out of
Speaker 1: the studio, I couldn't have formed an apartment. Wow, oh
Speaker 1: yeah it is, you know, historically it's great. But I
Speaker 1: loved working on heroes because we had a restaurant in
Speaker 1: the studio called Studio Track, which was run by an
Speaker 1: xboxer X German Champion boxing or world MM but he
Speaker 1: was a German boxer. And of course our cea you
Speaker 1: were footing the bill, so it would be we're going
Speaker 1: to have dinner, so Peter got Peter got to eat
Speaker 1: good good food. Well, well, David was doing heroes on
Speaker 1: the bill of our our ce a good yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so you know, and that was the same with lust
Speaker 1: for life. You know, it was good when you had
Speaker 1: a good and it was different artists as well. We
Speaker 1: always so I mean I used to live eat quite well.
Speaker 1: But you know I had a little gas chemistry in
Speaker 1: in my in my trailer for the winter, it's just
Speaker 1: to keep me warm. But that was basically what my
Speaker 1: life was. What was that area of Berlin like that?
Speaker 1: I mean I've seen pictures and it looks like something
Speaker 1: from from a movie like Blade Runner or something. Can
Speaker 1: you describe like what that part of West Berlin was
Speaker 1: like at the time. Yeah, well, if you can imagine
Speaker 1: the cur curtains rasa. All right, you turned off a
Speaker 1: small it was like a like a mainly sort of
Speaker 1: road that went from down near Checkpoint Charlie and it
Speaker 1: would come up um just along the the let me
Speaker 1: see which side of the oof that is. It would
Speaker 1: come up one side of the UF up towards the
Speaker 1: Deutsche Oba the Berlin Open House. But from hands A
Speaker 1: student right across the Opera house, there was nothing. It
Speaker 1: was just derelict. It was like clear clear bond sites.
Speaker 1: So it was all just you know what used to
Speaker 1: be rubbled. I'm sure you'd be able to see pictures
Speaker 1: of it. And and then if you came out of
Speaker 1: the studio of the out of the front door, if
Speaker 1: you turned right down curt Strassa about two hundred yards
Speaker 1: down the road, the road stopped because that was the
Speaker 1: Berlin Wall. So you now had the Berlin Wall right
Speaker 1: in front of you. Now on the curtains answer. Between
Speaker 1: Handser and the Berlin Wall, there was one more building,
Speaker 1: which is which is if you look at one of
Speaker 1: the pictures there is from Handser, I can maybe sending you.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you can see this one building out of studio
Speaker 1: to a window. You virtually cannot see the boiling wall
Speaker 1: out of the hands of studio window. So this story
Speaker 1: that came about Wisconti kissing Antonio mass outside and you
Speaker 1: know at the burling wall, and David had seen it
Speaker 1: from the studio window, it's not possible. So I think
Speaker 1: over the years of Heroes sort of being marked as
Speaker 1: the work, it has been marked recently because initially it
Speaker 1: didn't really make it. I think they also inherited a
Speaker 1: little bit of artistic scope to where it was put together,
Speaker 1: make it a little more poet absolutely. Now. The other
Speaker 1: thing is when it came to the backing vocals of Heroes, Uh,
Speaker 1: this is these are my facts. Now. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if you'll get anybody to ever agree to this, because
Speaker 1: the only other person that is alive that was there
Speaker 1: studied Wiscontin was Tony used to like to double David's
Speaker 1: voice in backing vocals. So so basically, if you listen
Speaker 1: to when he was doing choruses, he would overlay the
Speaker 1: same track two or three times in David's voice. So
Speaker 1: if you listen to some of his earlier stuff. You know,
Speaker 1: most most of David's sort of choruses are doubled, so
Speaker 1: you hear the boy. And I had the idea that
Speaker 1: to to get this, you know, we could be heroes
Speaker 1: because it's like you're you're talking to two people. So
Speaker 1: as opposed to David doing the backing vocals, there would
Speaker 1: be a reply and so you would have that secondary
Speaker 1: statement afterwards. And if you listen to the vocals, obviously
Speaker 1: you've got that. So we did. What we decided to
Speaker 1: do was double it up together. Now, Tony Wisconti claims
Speaker 1: that he went into the studio and ablud Meyer was
Speaker 1: at the recording desk. The actual fact was I went
Speaker 1: into the studio with David because we've done it on
Speaker 1: on Lust for Life, out of a bit of fun,
Speaker 1: and Tony operated the desk and we did the backing
Speaker 1: googles once again. In the BBC interview from a few
Speaker 1: years back, Tony said, if you listen carefully, you can
Speaker 1: hear David with an English accent and you can also
Speaker 1: hear a Boston accent. Well, if you actually listen to
Speaker 1: those two vocals that are on the backing track, which
Speaker 1: he actually separate did for the BBC interview. There isn't
Speaker 1: there isn't a Boston accent because he's not Tony. I
Speaker 1: can hear, I can hearly clear clearly here David, and
Speaker 1: I can clearly hear myself, and so I just have
Speaker 1: the pleasure of going, thanks Tony, you isolated my vocals,
Speaker 1: so you know, and that's it. But hey, listen it.
Speaker 1: I never got paid paid for any extra work. I
Speaker 1: never got paid any extra money for being being the
Speaker 1: engineer on Heroes. I never got any of the credit.
Speaker 1: It made no difference to me in my latter life
Speaker 1: because it was about a year after that I decided
Speaker 1: to give it up. I was fell up. I spent
Speaker 1: another winter in the in the trailer. I got together
Speaker 1: with a girl that had an apartment and she said,
Speaker 1: what are you doing. You need to earn money and
Speaker 1: I ain't. Got a job in a bar which I
Speaker 1: was being paid twice as much as I was being
Speaker 1: paid in the studios, and then I also started doing
Speaker 1: pirate pirate video cassettes to all the people used to
Speaker 1: coming to the bar, and eventually I opened up five
Speaker 1: video rental shops in Berlin. So it was a complete
Speaker 1: contrast to what I've been doing. But you you sang
Speaker 1: with David Bowie on here Is. I mean that's something
Speaker 1: that you know, that's you take that with you wherever
Speaker 1: you go. Just inside wow that I mean, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you if you were aware of
Speaker 1: the London Olympics. Hero has been played all the time
Speaker 1: and I used to listen. I go great, So when
Speaker 1: he comes on the radio and driving down the street
Speaker 1: and he comes on the radio, I just yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: here it is. I'm singing again, and and and a
Speaker 1: few people that know me and know it it's me singing.
Speaker 1: You know, Davi. There's so many text messages from time
Speaker 1: to time he said, oh I just heard you singing
Speaker 1: on the radio and I'm going, oh god, it sounds good. Yeah, hey, listen,
Speaker 1: it's so simple, you know, we we can be here.
Speaker 1: It's so easy. You know, it's it's a very easy line.
Speaker 1: But I feel more I would like to have the
Speaker 1: credit for the idea of putting that in in a
Speaker 1: reply to the to the main vocal, because that was
Speaker 1: my idea. It was me saying, well, rather than doing
Speaker 1: it this way where you're actually singing the chorus as
Speaker 1: a chorus, why didn't you like echo it, you're getting
Speaker 1: an echo back from it, so it was different. So yeah,
Speaker 1: you know that was my input into that. Also. My
Speaker 1: other input was I was managing a band that Antonio
Speaker 1: Mars Sang was the singer in UM and we were
Speaker 1: doing a demo in one of the studios one morning
Speaker 1: before we did Hear It, moved an in studio three
Speaker 1: before David came in to go to work in studio too,
Speaker 1: and I introduced Antonio master David and Tony Wisconsin. Wow,
Speaker 1: so you kicked it all off. You kicked that whole
Speaker 1: verse off. You introduced the two. Oh, I don't know
Speaker 1: about that. I don't know about that because, like I said,
Speaker 1: you know, the mystery of whether David ever did see
Speaker 1: them kissing, I don't know, but he definitely from the studio.
Speaker 1: Didn't see him kissing in front of the wall, but
Speaker 1: maybe he saw him kiss somewhere else. Now as far
Speaker 1: as I know from my my knowledge was Antonio mass
Speaker 1: had a boyfriend at that time because he was he
Speaker 1: was the road with the band that she was singing
Speaker 1: with s and Tony had a wife. So did they
Speaker 1: have this illicit thing? I don't know. I never saw
Speaker 1: him kissed. I didn't even know there was anything going on.
Speaker 1: But then you know, I was probably busy doing a
Speaker 1: lot of other stuff to be and and the other
Speaker 1: thing about that whole period with David and Jimmy, we
Speaker 1: didn't socialize. So when the day was over in the studio,
Speaker 1: that was it. They go their way. I went mine.
Speaker 1: Because the other thing I've got to say about it
Speaker 1: is I wasn't a fan of David Bowie. My my,
Speaker 1: you know, led Zeppelin, Deep Purple Um ten years after
Speaker 1: jet O Toll. That was more hardly seen. Yeah, hardest stuff.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, from fifteen. I mean at fifteen,
Speaker 1: my brother taught me to this concert with Hendrix, ten
Speaker 1: years after Canned Heat procol harm Oh, I can't remember
Speaker 1: who were at this big concert in Berlin in September
Speaker 1: of seventy uh And of course, me being a fifteen
Speaker 1: year old wanting to find out everything, I talked my
Speaker 1: way into getting into the backstage area and I got
Speaker 1: to meet Hendrix. He what did he say? Well, if
Speaker 1: I give you this background, Jordan's my father worked in Berlin,
Speaker 1: all right, which is why we lived in Berlin. And
Speaker 1: he worked for the British military and his job was
Speaker 1: listening to Russian and East German radio because it was
Speaker 1: the Cold War period and he worked in a place
Speaker 1: called Teufelsberg, which is the devil Shill now Toeutfelisberg was
Speaker 1: a listening station in Berlin for the for the Allied military,
Speaker 1: and all he would do is listen to German and
Speaker 1: East East German and Russian radio conversations. I'm writing down
Speaker 1: in English and send off to intelligence. There were about
Speaker 1: a thousand people working in Teufelisberg at the time, so
Speaker 1: my father wasn't doing anything like James Bond. He wasn't
Speaker 1: all right. But then Jimmy says, what are you doing
Speaker 1: in Berlin? And I said, oh, well, I'm here with
Speaker 1: my father. What's your father doing in Berlin? Well he's
Speaker 1: just by because there was a fifteen year old I've
Speaker 1: got Jimmie Henry's in front of me. You know, I
Speaker 1: want to be impressive. Why you know, I probably would
Speaker 1: have got battled by my father for telling anybody, but
Speaker 1: that was it. And he answered me all these different questions.
Speaker 1: So it was me wanting to find out how do
Speaker 1: I play this and how do I turn into what
Speaker 1: you are? And everything like that. You know, if you
Speaker 1: want to know, what are you doing in Berlin? Why
Speaker 1: are you in Berlin? Wow, it must be fantastic. So
Speaker 1: that was it, and then unfortunately, my my brother then
Speaker 1: found me and dragged me out of there. I think
Speaker 1: we were probably there for another five ten minutes or something,
Speaker 1: and then, you know, the next band was getting ready
Speaker 1: to play, so we were gonna have going to go
Speaker 1: out and watch the next band. So that was that,
Speaker 1: But for for many many years it was my brother's.
Speaker 1: His story is, oh, yeah, I took my brother to
Speaker 1: see Hendrix and I had to pull him out of
Speaker 1: the dressing room because he was he was he was
Speaker 1: vending Jimmy Hendrix's ear. Yeah, so he loved the sword.
Speaker 1: But you know, but he was He was absolutely nice guy.
Speaker 1: You know, but most of most of the Archers I've met,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how big they are, how special that are,
Speaker 1: they are really genuinely nice people. And David was just
Speaker 1: the same. David was a gentleman as far as I
Speaker 1: was concerned. What was his relationship like with with with
Speaker 1: Iggy Pop with Jimmy, Well that they were initially for
Speaker 1: lust for life. I felt that they were joined at
Speaker 1: the hip architecturally, but you know, like you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: they just hung out together and they were together, they
Speaker 1: were around and everything. They would leave the studio together,
Speaker 1: they would arrive at the studio together. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: That's one of the things I have to say, because
Speaker 1: you know, you have all these stories about the drug
Speaker 1: problems they had in the States and before they came
Speaker 1: to Berlin and they came to in the studio, the
Speaker 1: studio was always clean. There were no drugs about the studio.
Speaker 1: I think there might have been a little bit of
Speaker 1: pop or something, you know, but but listened, there was
Speaker 1: there was no drug sessions at the studio. What they
Speaker 1: did as soon as they left the studio, I don't know,
Speaker 1: you know. And and there are pictures of David and
Speaker 1: Jimmy I think at a bar called Rommy Haggs, which
Speaker 1: was back in those days was a transvestite and bar.
Speaker 1: They used to do transvestite shows. It was one of
Speaker 1: the in places to go. Rommy Harks. You know, the
Speaker 1: zim been taught that Rommy harg has made a statement
Speaker 1: actually had a relationship with David. I don't know about that,
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of people anybody that sort of
Speaker 1: shoulders with David. I think over the years, was trying
Speaker 1: to make a story out of it. But yeah, but
Speaker 1: I have some fond memories of the time I spent
Speaker 1: with David because one at one stage his son was
Speaker 1: in Berlin and he was actually going to a British
Speaker 1: military school in Berlin, and I had I had to
Speaker 1: drive him and the child minder to the school a
Speaker 1: couple of times because we had a little Volkswagen buss too.
Speaker 1: I took him to school a couple of times. And
Speaker 1: I could see this interaction David had, you know, as
Speaker 1: a as a father and also on Lost for Life.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the issue was at the time,
Speaker 1: but David spent a lot of time on the phone
Speaker 1: from the studio because it would have been late night,
Speaker 1: well obviously in California at that time, um, it would
Speaker 1: have been sort of daytime in time, and he spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time on the phone back and forwards.
Speaker 1: And if I think you I don't actually know what
Speaker 1: the conversations were about, but I think it was about,
Speaker 1: you know, the part of the parting of the waves
Speaker 1: and when when Duncan was going to be sort of
Speaker 1: with David full time and all all those things. So yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I saw this emotional side of David just
Speaker 1: by chance of being there that you know, he wasn't
Speaker 1: just this superstar guy that you know, had this persona
Speaker 1: that he wanted to put other people. You know, he
Speaker 1: he was also a human being. He was also a
Speaker 1: person that cared, you know, and I think the love
Speaker 1: for his son shone through at that time as well.
Speaker 1: You know, you know, he was he was a father
Speaker 1: and those things make a difference. And I don't I
Speaker 1: don't think those things ever really came came came to
Speaker 1: before in his life because until later, of course, when
Speaker 1: he married the model I can't think of my name,
Speaker 1: but anyway, I think he kept his private life private
Speaker 1: and then he put out this per persona for you know,
Speaker 1: being the superside. And this is why he had these
Speaker 1: different ultra egos that he had throughout his career. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you only see what he wanted you to see, absolutely,
Speaker 1: but if you actually had you know, if you were
Speaker 1: there when when the curtains opened for a little while
Speaker 1: and you saw behind the curtains, you could see this
Speaker 1: was a real person. This is a person that cared passion.
Speaker 1: I mean, he told me of a story about being
Speaker 1: in Tokyo and in this hotel in Tokyo, and he said,
Speaker 1: I think they were they were they were doing a
Speaker 1: gig there or something. But was in this big hotel
Speaker 1: in Tokyo and just by chance he opened the door
Speaker 1: to walk out into the corridor, and who did he
Speaker 1: bump into John Lennon and Yokna. And so he's just
Speaker 1: telling the story about being in Tokyo and again bumped
Speaker 1: into John Lennon and Yoko Hona and you know they
Speaker 1: spent the evenit together or whatever. I can't remember the
Speaker 1: exact details of what he told told me, but I'm
Speaker 1: just going, wow, you know that must be mega, because
Speaker 1: that would have been something very very uh dawned into me,
Speaker 1: you know, being in the in the presence of John
Speaker 1: Lennon or George Harrison, you know those those are people
Speaker 1: that you know to me, would there my childhood? Who
Speaker 1: were some other acts that you worked with at hands?
Speaker 1: Were there any any heroes of yours? One of the
Speaker 1: funny things, um that happened was after we've done Lust
Speaker 1: for Life and we've done Heroes the back end of
Speaker 1: that year, UM, there was a session booked the sex
Speaker 1: person that booked a session, well here's the funny thing. Now,
Speaker 1: we had six people working in the studio based basically
Speaker 1: his recording engineers, meaning more than tumbler aid, and my
Speaker 1: guy called Will Roper, a couple of a couple of others.
Speaker 1: Nobody wanted to do the sex pissons. I was told
Speaker 1: that the sex pisses are coming and I'm doing the
Speaker 1: sex presson pess session. And I went, I wait, why
Speaker 1: nobody wanted to do the six But I said why
Speaker 1: and they said, well, nobody wants to do them, so
Speaker 1: you're doing them. I went, Okay, brilliant, Great, I'll do
Speaker 1: the sex pistons And that was it. What were they like?
Speaker 1: They like, no, fortunately, fortunately or unfortunately I'm not sure which.
Speaker 1: All right, they canceled and before that there was some
Speaker 1: issue but they never arrived at hands but they had
Speaker 1: booked a session but nobody wanted them. I can kind
Speaker 1: of see that. I can understand. Yeah, that was it,
Speaker 1: but yes, so there's a lot of stuff. But then
Speaker 1: i'd like, I say, I was doing I've been a
Speaker 1: German pop and getting sessions that really nobody else wanted.
Speaker 1: So I always start at the bottom of the packing list. Um,
Speaker 1: and I just shouldn't you know, I kind of thought
Speaker 1: to do this anymore, and I gave it up, which
Speaker 1: is a shame because I would look back and think
Speaker 1: if I would have maybe put personally in another year,
Speaker 1: two years, maybe I would have done it. So I've
Speaker 1: done a lot of things since, and I have no regrets.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't regret leaving music industry because it
Speaker 1: didn't do anything for me. What was it that David
Speaker 1: and Iggy or Jim. I guess I should say, what
Speaker 1: do they like about Berlin at that time? And what
Speaker 1: was it like for you as a Westerner being there?
Speaker 1: But then was very raw at the time. Because um,
Speaker 1: there's uh, there's a movie or a German series been
Speaker 1: on I watched recently which I thought would give you
Speaker 1: a sort of insight into what it was like over there,
Speaker 1: um with East Germany. And it's called deutsch Land eighty three,
Speaker 1: Deutschland nine and deutsch Light three eight six eighty nine.
Speaker 1: The it's a it's a German produced thing, but it's
Speaker 1: it's about the Cold War, and it's about the Berlin
Speaker 1: War coming down and all the things that were involved
Speaker 1: in that and the spies and all, you know a
Speaker 1: lot of other stuff. But it gives you a great
Speaker 1: insight into how Germany felt in itself. And of course
Speaker 1: Berlin was an island in East Germany. So if you
Speaker 1: sort of if you could imagine taking Berlin as an
Speaker 1: island and lifting out into the middle of an ocean,
Speaker 1: that's one way of saying it was an island. But
Speaker 1: if you actually take Berlin and you can imagine putting
Speaker 1: it into the center of Russia, okay, with complete Western
Speaker 1: ideal idealism, okay, in this communist era, or put it
Speaker 1: into the middle of China under today's era. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just unfathomable, but that's what it was. You had
Speaker 1: East Germany, which was, you know, part of the Soviet Union,
Speaker 1: which was you know, the socialism um communism. Keep keep
Speaker 1: an eye on your neighbor and inform on him if
Speaker 1: you will, you know. And then you had West Germany,
Speaker 1: which was a complete free state within this area. And
Speaker 1: the only way you could get out of Berlin was
Speaker 1: either drive through the Eastern Corridor, which was actually quite depressing,
Speaker 1: or your frew you know, the are the only two
Speaker 1: ways of getting in and out. There was sort of attention,
Speaker 1: there was sort of a sparkle in the city, and Also,
Speaker 1: one of the other things that a lot of people
Speaker 1: haven't realized about Berlin and is if you were a
Speaker 1: German teenager of eighteen in West Germany, you got conscripted
Speaker 1: to the German Army. The only way to get out
Speaker 1: of that was you moved to Berlin. Because of Berlin,
Speaker 1: if you lived in Berlin, you weren't conscripted into the army.
Speaker 1: So if you can imagine that seventeen and a half,
Speaker 1: most West Germans that did not want to have to
Speaker 1: go to conscription in the army moved to Berlin to
Speaker 1: live in Berlin. Did you ever make it over to
Speaker 1: East Berlin? Did you ever visit there? I visit there
Speaker 1: quite often because my mother used to go to East
Speaker 1: Germany to buy porcelain and crystal that was made in
Speaker 1: East Germany. So Karl Heinz, you know, Carl Entz was
Speaker 1: I think one of the big porcelain makers in East
Speaker 1: Germany at the time, so she used to go over.
Speaker 1: Then she used to buy portling in crystal um because
Speaker 1: it was cheap, and because my father was connected to
Speaker 1: the military, we used to go over in the military convoy,
Speaker 1: so so so we used to go over like three
Speaker 1: or four cars in the military conboy and they go
Speaker 1: around to all these different places to buy this portion
Speaker 1: and then this crystal. This is when I was about thirteen,
Speaker 1: fourteen twelve, you know, to buy this crystal. And of
Speaker 1: course you had these three or four military cars in
Speaker 1: the convoy. But then following the ministry cars in the
Speaker 1: convoy were like was probably I don't know if it
Speaker 1: was a Russian car. But then in East German car
Speaker 1: as well. You know, the police to keep an eye
Speaker 1: on what these people doing. You know, why are they
Speaker 1: coming to to East billion Now I didn't think much
Speaker 1: older at the time. It was great, well we'll go
Speaker 1: over here. But the contrast between what was in the
Speaker 1: West and what was in the East was day and night.
Speaker 1: You know, the buildings who were run down, they weren't,
Speaker 1: they weren't weren't up to the specification that the West
Speaker 1: was after the war. You know, these were still buildings
Speaker 1: that had taken a beating during the war, and you
Speaker 1: know it was showing. You could see it. It was very,
Speaker 1: very different. And the thing that David and Jimmy used
Speaker 1: to love was used to be able to travel on
Speaker 1: the s Bahn, which and the s Bahn means Strawsonbahn,
Speaker 1: which is it's sort of mainly above ground, but when
Speaker 1: it went to go from the west to the east,
Speaker 1: it went underground and it stopped at a place called Friedrichstrasser,
Speaker 1: and then it continued after that and it came back
Speaker 1: out in the west. Now as you drove, as you
Speaker 1: came on the underground on the Sumn where it went
Speaker 1: underground was around about the curtains Strasa, just just before
Speaker 1: you got to the wall, so it would go underground
Speaker 1: there and it went into the east. Well, as you
Speaker 1: came into each part of the east, you would have
Speaker 1: military guards underground in the tunnels with lights on, with
Speaker 1: machine guns, guarding that nobody got onto the train. I
Speaker 1: don't think they cared about anybody getting off it, but
Speaker 1: they made sure that nobody was going to get into
Speaker 1: the tunnel to get on the train to get out
Speaker 1: of his Germany. So that was like a controlled area
Speaker 1: and you went through and when you've got a free
Speaker 1: re start, you could actually get off the train because
Speaker 1: that was a border crossing, but you could actually get
Speaker 1: off the train and not go through the border crossing.
Speaker 1: But you could buy cigarettes and drink to ut free,
Speaker 1: you know, tax free on the train train platform. So
Speaker 1: everybody used to go through free restructed to buy cheap
Speaker 1: booze and cheap cigarettes, like duty free at the airport. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like juty free in the airport because it was
Speaker 1: in East Germany, all right. And then you got back
Speaker 1: on the train and hoped that by the time you
Speaker 1: got off the train at the other end, there wasn't
Speaker 1: West Berlin customs officer asking to look in your bag,
Speaker 1: because they did that from time to time. It wasn't much.
Speaker 1: I mean, most people could get away with a couple
Speaker 1: of hundred cigarettes and the bottle of whiskey, but you
Speaker 1: certainly couldn't have got away with four cases of whiskey.
Speaker 1: They'll be watching help for things like that. Yes, So
Speaker 1: this was it. So they would get on the Sman
Speaker 1: and ride the SMA and there's there's a famous picture
Speaker 1: of them riding the span, a picture of the two
Speaker 1: of them on the SMA. I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: seen it, just two guys, just anonymous. Yeah, I leve to. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love to dig out some of these things and
Speaker 1: send them to you because you just smile at what
Speaker 1: the whole thing was. So this was this was the
Speaker 1: whole background to the inspiration they were getting in Berlin
Speaker 1: and the ideas that were getting. I mean, Passenger was
Speaker 1: written about traveling the spar There's the story that they
Speaker 1: always tell. I don't know if it's true of of
Speaker 1: Tony and David and Jimmy being in the control room
Speaker 1: at Hanser and seeing the East German guards in the
Speaker 1: gun turret across through the window. Is that could you
Speaker 1: see that? Well? No, that that was on low. Now,
Speaker 1: whether whether Jimmy was there at that time, I don't
Speaker 1: know because I wasn't. I wasn't there on the day.
Speaker 1: There is a photo of David Ado and Tony Wiscondi
Speaker 1: behind the desk. I don't know if you've seen that
Speaker 1: photo three of them behind the desk. That was taken
Speaker 1: while they were doing low and while they were mixing low.
Speaker 1: But if you looked out of the student the trol
Speaker 1: rooms window, you could see just the top of the
Speaker 1: wall in the distance. It was about two hundred yards
Speaker 1: three hundred yards away maybe you know about about about
Speaker 1: if you put yourself in in a one of your
Speaker 1: football stadium, Yeah, and you know, like sat at one
Speaker 1: end of the stadium and looked at the other end
Speaker 1: of the stadium. It was about that far away. It
Speaker 1: was quite a distance away, but just there there was
Speaker 1: a tower which was a turret, and the guard the
Speaker 1: East Germans will be sitting in that tower overlooking the
Speaker 1: area which was between them and the wall, which was
Speaker 1: the Nomen's area, which was where the mines were and
Speaker 1: where you know, all the barred wire was, and if
Speaker 1: and all the lights were, and if anybody tried to
Speaker 1: run across there, they would shoot them or try to
Speaker 1: shoot them. So you know, that was how people died,
Speaker 1: trying to escape things. And of course it who wanted
Speaker 1: to have a bit of fun with the guys, so
Speaker 1: he told them about these East Germans and he said
Speaker 1: they sit in that tower with guns and they could shoot.
Speaker 1: And he's putting a little bit of emphasis on, you know,
Speaker 1: trying to put the wind up them. And what we
Speaker 1: used to have was lamps hanging down over the over
Speaker 1: the desk to lighten up the de lighten the desk.
Speaker 1: So as they're standing there and he's talking about it,
Speaker 1: he said, yeah, yeah, he said yeah, but they can't
Speaker 1: actually see us because they you know, we're too far
Speaker 1: away and everything. They could only see you if you
Speaker 1: if you shot shoe the torch at them like this,
Speaker 1: and so was one of these lights and aims it
Speaker 1: out of the window towards their tower. The story is
Speaker 1: Tony and David dived under the desk. Now that's the story. Now,
Speaker 1: whether it did happen that way, I don't know. Edre
Speaker 1: said it did does and he loves telling that story,
Speaker 1: or but that's basically what happened. Yeah, you can see it.
Speaker 1: But that's how close you were to this, this this
Speaker 1: differential between east and west. And then when David went
Speaker 1: was it seven eight he did his concert in Berlin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he mollless, you know, set the stage up on the
Speaker 1: west side to aim at the east, you know, and
Speaker 1: he was like, listen, this is this is where we are,
Speaker 1: this is who we are here to have some free music. Now.
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I wasn't in Berlin at the time. I
Speaker 1: didn't see the concert at the time. I don't really
Speaker 1: have any background on that concert, but you know, that
Speaker 1: was that was something else he did with Berlin. Now,
Speaker 1: and of course after Heroes he went back to Berlin
Speaker 1: to to record the other album with two three Bow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I mean that would that's really the third album
Speaker 1: in the trilogy to Berlin trilogy. I know they don't
Speaker 1: put it that way. Below was the first one and
Speaker 1: Low was only finished in Berlin. They they've done all
Speaker 1: the most of the music, backing tracks and everything for
Speaker 1: Low in What was the name of the yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah chateau somewhere in France. And why they moved to
Speaker 1: Berlin at that time to do it, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It might have been to do with Edgar Frozer, I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm not party to that real insight to it,
Speaker 1: because David met up with Eda Edgar Frozen at some
Speaker 1: stage in seventy six seventy seventy six, and he went
Speaker 1: to stay with Edgar Frozen in Berlin for a while,
Speaker 1: so he stayed. He stayed with Edgar, of course, and
Speaker 1: then David got the apartment on help Strassa, and Jimmy
Speaker 1: stayed with David in David's apartment until he actually got
Speaker 1: his own apartment in the back of the building. So
Speaker 1: David's apartment was in the front of the building and
Speaker 1: Jimmy's apartment was in the back. I never visited David.
Speaker 1: I visited Jimmy's twice because he bought a piano and
Speaker 1: he needed it reconditioning. He brought an upright piano and
Speaker 1: he wanted reconditioning, so I went with him to have
Speaker 1: a look at it. I can't really recall much about
Speaker 1: the apartment, separate scene, this piano, and then I got
Speaker 1: a piano guy to have a look at it and
Speaker 1: recondition it, and took this piano guy to the apartment.
Speaker 1: That's about it. But it's like I said to him,
Speaker 1: I didn't really socialize with him. They were they weren't
Speaker 1: my social sphere, if you get what I mean. I mean, well,
Speaker 1: I had a lot of musician friends at the time,
Speaker 1: and and it would have been very, very difficult because
Speaker 1: if I had a socialist with Jimi and David, my
Speaker 1: other friends would be on the short short side of it,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't really include them because it's not like
Speaker 1: you can sort of say, oh, David has invited me
Speaker 1: to go such and such a place for drink, you
Speaker 1: want to come with me? You know, that's not really
Speaker 1: what you do, not not in a professional relationship. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. You can't really bring
Speaker 1: your friends. Yeah, if you if I met him and
Speaker 1: he was just a friend of mine and whatever. I
Speaker 1: could say, oh yeah, I'll meet you for a beer,
Speaker 1: but David's asked me to go for a beer. You
Speaker 1: want to join us? You know, you could do that,
Speaker 1: but not you know, I didn't feel in a professional
Speaker 1: so so so maybe my state, my status are more professional.
Speaker 1: And I wasn't a fan. You know, when when they
Speaker 1: said David Bowie's coming to hands, it was like, okay, great.
Speaker 1: But when I heard Brian, When I heard Brian Eno
Speaker 1: is going to be there, you know, that's a different fish.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, what was that like? What was the like
Speaker 1: working with them together? How was their relationship there? Relations brilliant?
Speaker 1: I mean they just they just used off each other
Speaker 1: and and well David really bust off Brian. You know,
Speaker 1: Brian would come up with these these thought processes of
Speaker 1: what to do and everything, and David we go, oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know that would You could see he was following
Speaker 1: following that direction. Were they funny? I always hear these
Speaker 1: stories about them doing like like Peter Cook and Dudley
Speaker 1: more routines and stuff like that. Were they funny together?
Speaker 1: I don't know about being funny? It was fun I
Speaker 1: don't really remember things like that, you know, but maybe
Speaker 1: that was more more, you know, to the side, like
Speaker 1: when when they were doing other things together, you know
Speaker 1: when when they left the studio and went and did
Speaker 1: something else, they might have done stuff like that, because
Speaker 1: obviously we were in the studio eight ten hours a day.
Speaker 1: But then the rest of the time, which is a
Speaker 1: lot of other stuff going on. Did David know the
Speaker 1: sounds that he wanted or was there a lot of
Speaker 1: experimentation going on and trying stuff out and then after
Speaker 1: the words kind of refined a lot of experiments, a
Speaker 1: lot of experimentation, and and this is the other thing
Speaker 1: I would say, in fairness to aid, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of the pre pre ideas for the way to
Speaker 1: get the studio to sound when David was going to
Speaker 1: do the album was worked at Ada and I put
Speaker 1: together you know, we we we put the big boom room,
Speaker 1: mike in there, we put all the other stuff around
Speaker 1: because that was the ambience we were trying to create.
Speaker 1: We were trying to get the sound of the room. Now,
Speaker 1: you see, the main hall was divided in in a
Speaker 1: quarter of it had this enormous um um curtain that
Speaker 1: went right across the hall and for most of the
Speaker 1: stuff that was done in studio to everybody used to
Speaker 1: record within this curtain area, which was about a quarter
Speaker 1: of the room. It's where the drum box was. There
Speaker 1: was a drum box when you put the drummer in,
Speaker 1: and then everything else had these barriers around them to
Speaker 1: more full the sound, so sound was more muffled, and
Speaker 1: then you had this enormous curtain blocking off the main
Speaker 1: part of the hall. But what I did a lot
Speaker 1: of with a do over the time was we would
Speaker 1: do a lot of work with the Berlin Philharmonic and
Speaker 1: their orchestra coming to do productions music productions for German TV.
Speaker 1: So if there was music needed to be recorded orchestral
Speaker 1: music for German TV, it would be done in hands
Speaker 1: in the main hall and this way we would move
Speaker 1: the curtain out the way and you would use the
Speaker 1: whole of the hall for orchestral stuff. And you'll probably
Speaker 1: be able to find some photos of orchestras in the
Speaker 1: in the main hall recording. But until Heroes No Band,
Speaker 1: no music was recorded in the studio in that way
Speaker 1: where we put the drum drums up on the stage
Speaker 1: because there was a state you know, the stage platform
Speaker 1: and then the rest of the the instruments, the based,
Speaker 1: the electric guitar, the piano, and everything was on the
Speaker 1: whole side of this huge curtain because we basically almost
Speaker 1: didn't use the other side. So everything was recorded in
Speaker 1: the hall to get that huge ambient sound. That was
Speaker 1: what we were looking for, and that was that was
Speaker 1: more or less what Adio and I had spoken about
Speaker 1: well before you know, Heroes was even started, because we
Speaker 1: did some We did some great stuff in studio too,
Speaker 1: in orchestral stuff. I think you could probably liken it
Speaker 1: to abbey Road. I've never been in abbey Road, but
Speaker 1: I've seen pictures of Abbey Road and Abbey Road is huge,
Speaker 1: high ceiling and you know, everything is you can get
Speaker 1: that orchestral sound in abbey Road and you could have
Speaker 1: got back in those days the orchestral sound in hands
Speaker 1: It too. So that was the sort of the move
Speaker 1: that that Ado and I really buzzed on, was getting
Speaker 1: this huge sound, you know, trying to get something sound
Speaker 1: much bigger and then you get something like Heroes. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so. I'm hoping that I'm hoping that my
Speaker 1: feedback with Aid and what I brought to the table
Speaker 1: with Ado not being there, is it helped to create
Speaker 1: some of that ambiance and create some of the sounds.
Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite memory of those sessions of
Speaker 1: your time together? The favorite memory of that, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think my favorite memory of it was doing the vocals
Speaker 1: with David, because it's a good choice. We no, we did, Yeah,
Speaker 1: well we did, we did. I set over a back
Speaker 1: to back Mike. I set up to you ul seventy
Speaker 1: nines facing each other, so David, you know, David and
Speaker 1: I were facing each other doing it, and there was
Speaker 1: the buzz feeling between that. So doing the backing vocals
Speaker 1: was like, you know, I had I had my chance
Speaker 1: to have my fifteen seconds of frame. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: standing with David and we're seeing it, and there was
Speaker 1: there was that buzz, and I had that same sort
Speaker 1: of buzz doing that with Passenger, thinking this is the
Speaker 1: closest I will ever get to being an artist, because
Speaker 1: I'll never be an artist. I disagree. I think everything
Speaker 1: that you're describing about how you added to to the
Speaker 1: sounds of all all these songs, I think you have
Speaker 1: absolutely proven yourself as an artist. At the time, it
Speaker 1: was nothing special, and today it's nothing special. Unless I'm
Speaker 1: actually talking to somebody that gets that buzz out of it.
Speaker 1: You know, whether everybody on the planet knows about it
Speaker 1: doesn't make any difference to me. Have you had any
Speaker 1: contact with Duncan, with David's son, No, No, I mean,
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, I haven't even tried to
Speaker 1: reach out. I I sort of got the impression that
Speaker 1: that he liked to keep those memories to himself, which
Speaker 1: is totally understandable. One of the things I would love
Speaker 1: to be able to do at some stage, probably before
Speaker 1: I die, was find out off Duncan if he realized
Speaker 1: how passionate his father was about him being his son
Speaker 1: at that time in Berlion. Because Duncan mosting about six
Speaker 1: seven eight, he was only a very young child. And
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what you remember at the
Speaker 1: time with your father when you were six seven or eight, um,
Speaker 1: but your father probably had a lot more time for
Speaker 1: you than David had for Duncan, or you know, was
Speaker 1: able to make because he had some he was spending
Speaker 1: so much time being this this uh persona that the
Speaker 1: world wanted. Yeah, he belonged to everybody. Yeah, but but
Speaker 1: I believe, I honestly believe this from the little that
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of years of interaction I had
Speaker 1: with David Duncan was a huge part of what his
Speaker 1: feelings were, you know, he had he had that farther emotion. Now,
Speaker 1: whether he ever showed it at the time, I don't know,
Speaker 1: because you know, it's it's like a different thing. But
Speaker 1: I believe he did because I believe. Now I don't
Speaker 1: know how true the story is, but I believe when
Speaker 1: he died, part of his will was to leave a
Speaker 1: million dollars or a million euros to Duncan's nanny, the
Speaker 1: girl in Berlin that looked after him. Now I have
Speaker 1: I mean that's what I've been told, I think through
Speaker 1: different conversations or every different people. But yeah, but he
Speaker 1: still had that connection with with with the girl that
Speaker 1: had looked after Duncan for him all that time in Berlin. Now,
Speaker 1: when that stopped, when it started, and when that stopped,
Speaker 1: and how that progressed, I don't know. But for me,
Speaker 1: that would be a more interesting conversation that we don't
Speaker 1: done anything to do with his father. You know, if
Speaker 1: I ever do manage to get in touch, you know,
Speaker 1: with him, I would let you. I'll tell him that
Speaker 1: I spoke with you and that you know you would
Speaker 1: love to to let him know. I mean, I I
Speaker 1: have a parent who passed away when I was very young,
Speaker 1: and I know I've had some some of there are
Speaker 1: some of her friends get in touch with me years
Speaker 1: later to kind of let me know what she was
Speaker 1: really like, especially at that time when you're a kid
Speaker 1: and you don't really know. And yeah, that's very special.
Speaker 1: I know firsthand how special that can be. So I
Speaker 1: you know what I for you, I will, I will.
Speaker 1: I now have a reason to try to get in
Speaker 1: touch with him. I will, I will do that and
Speaker 1: I'll let you know if I succeed. Yeah, because Jordan's
Speaker 1: is like this. I mean, they turned up at the
Speaker 1: studio and obviously there's work to be going on and everything,
Speaker 1: and it was like, wait a minute, we need to
Speaker 1: it done into school and I said, well, I've got
Speaker 1: a minibus there, I'll take the mini bus. I'll drive
Speaker 1: into school. And I'm must have driven into school two
Speaker 1: or three times. You know, I don't really I don't
Speaker 1: really recalled because of me. It was just something, Oh,
Speaker 1: let's get downe into school and get back to the
Speaker 1: studios as quick as I can, you know, But yeah,
Speaker 1: but those were little things and I just thought, and
Speaker 1: of course that was hero. So that was after the
Speaker 1: period David has spent all this time on the telephone
Speaker 1: during Loss for Life. And I mean, I know how
Speaker 1: much time you spent on the phone, and how much
Speaker 1: it costs, because every night I would have to do
Speaker 1: the studio breakdown for what expenses had to go onto
Speaker 1: the bill for our c A and for LUs LUs
Speaker 1: for Life. The telephone bill was huge because obviously he
Speaker 1: was using the studio phone to phone California, and of
Speaker 1: course he went on there and you know, whatever the
Speaker 1: rate was, I'll see you were playing the bill. I'd
Speaker 1: love to see a copy copy of some of those bills.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I wonder if they have them in the
Speaker 1: archives or something. Yeah, I doubt it. I doubt it.
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to visit Hanza last year and
Speaker 1: it was amazing. It's such an incredible room. What a
Speaker 1: beautiful room now, it's an actually beautiful room. Where he
Speaker 1: were there, it was derelict, the windows wrell boarded up.
Speaker 1: Back in those days, it looked nothing like it does now,
Speaker 1: absolutely nothing like it's day and night difference. Did it
Speaker 1: still seem like kind of a grand room or was
Speaker 1: it really just like a big almost like a gymnasium,
Speaker 1: but it was a big room. You could had the
Speaker 1: feeling of what it had been set up for originally
Speaker 1: and set up for originally was was done for for
Speaker 1: the Nazi. It was done for the Nazi hierarchy to
Speaker 1: go and listen to chamber music. It's a weird energy
Speaker 1: in there, yeah, you know, if you just got to
Speaker 1: think about it, you know, I don't know, I've never
Speaker 1: seen any records of it, but I'm sure adults went
Speaker 1: in there and listening to music with somebody playing live
Speaker 1: music in there at some stage because it was one
Speaker 1: of the you know, back in the in the thirties,
Speaker 1: that's what it was done for. Wow, what is it?
Speaker 1: What a strange, intense history for one building to have,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, going from just night and day,
Speaker 1: from from the Nazis to Bonno and you too. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I've been going to Berlin now for Davi's birthday for
Speaker 1: five years and every time somebody's there they say, well,
Speaker 1: where did they kiss? And I'm now standing in the
Speaker 1: window all right where they were meant to have kiss,
Speaker 1: and they said where did they kiss? Well, you look
Speaker 1: out the window. Now there's all these buildings there. Before that,
Speaker 1: there were none of those buildings there. There was only one,
Speaker 1: but that have structured your view of the actual wall,
Speaker 1: and there were walls in between, so so you couldn't
Speaker 1: actually see the wall. Um I said, I said, it
Speaker 1: could have been possible that they were outside here because
Speaker 1: just underneath the window of the of the the the
Speaker 1: control room is a little yard, a little courtyard where
Speaker 1: we used to part of the minibus. They might have
Speaker 1: got into that yard. He might have seen them kissing there,
Speaker 1: but I almost don't think so. I think it was
Speaker 1: more an artistics impression of he felt so close to
Speaker 1: the wall. There might have been a romantic connotation between
Speaker 1: and Antonio Marson Tony. I don't know. I wasn't with
Speaker 1: the seven, so you know, I'm not going to say
Speaker 1: it wasn't U. You know, if I had to take
Speaker 1: a point, I would say it wasn't. I don't lie,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not the person would like I said
Speaker 1: I wasn't there, and that the story didn't come out
Speaker 1: until fifteen years later. David's good at making up stories. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that's it. That's it. And on the same on
Speaker 1: the same point, you know, he told me about being
Speaker 1: in Tokyo in this hotel and walking out the hotel
Speaker 1: room and meeting John Lennon and yokoh No and they
Speaker 1: were doing this and they were doing that, and he
Speaker 1: told me all these different things about it that could
Speaker 1: well have been made up. Do you know what that
Speaker 1: might have been his ans impression of wanted to tell
Speaker 1: me a story that would interest me. You know, I
Speaker 1: don't know. That's a really great point. Wow. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: just don't know these things that be And I've spoken
Speaker 1: to so many different people that's over years, years ago,
Speaker 1: had brief encounters with David, and their stories seem to
Speaker 1: be clouded in a mist You're going, really, do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? It's like they're all as if
Speaker 1: you know, I have a story to tell, But this
Speaker 1: is this is this is what it is again. It
Speaker 1: gets back to what you were saying earlier. You saw
Speaker 1: what he wanted you to see. And uh, and that's
Speaker 1: why he was so many different things as so many
Speaker 1: different people. Yeah. And and and the thing about me
Speaker 1: with the vocals on lust for Life and on heroes,
Speaker 1: I was there, I was there, I did those things.
Speaker 1: I know it. Nobody else needs to know, you know,
Speaker 1: unless somebody like yourself specifically says, oh, look, tell me
Speaker 1: about that, tell me about that, tell me your story. Um,
Speaker 1: And like I'm telling you now, Jordan, you know it
Speaker 1: probably not going to assist you write a better article
Speaker 1: or make a better podcast about it, but it might
Speaker 1: just be of you a different insight into how you
Speaker 1: look at all the information you're gathering. Oh absolutely, I
Speaker 1: mean that that was part of the idea with this,
Speaker 1: was that I was writing something to to then do
Speaker 1: voiceovers for and record it and share that. But I thought,
Speaker 1: you know what, that's just my point of view. I
Speaker 1: want to get a bunch of people's point of view.
Speaker 1: It was such a multi multifaceted person. I want to
Speaker 1: talk to as many people as I can to to
Speaker 1: do interviews with them and and and share that so
Speaker 1: that it's kind of like, don't take my word for it,
Speaker 1: here's everybody else's point of view, make your own. Try
Speaker 1: to like figure out your own truth about who this
Speaker 1: person is, who meant so much to so many people,
Speaker 1: but seemed to be so many different things to so
Speaker 1: many different people. Off the Record is a production of
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe,
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Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
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