1 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and look this stuff 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Heart Radio. Well, 3 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: here's an obvious question for you, Samantha. Do you remember 4 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: the first time you were called a slut. I don't 5 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: know if I've ever been called a sled to my face, 6 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: I think I've called myself a slut. See I'm shocked 7 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: by that, right. Um. I think a part of that 8 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: was because I was so religious in college. Um, and 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: I was beyond pious at some point, so really really 10 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: shameful on me, honestly in that note. Um, But yeah, 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: I don't think because also I've shared my stories of 12 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: my past trauma and abuse. So most of the people 13 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: that and you never really used that haven't been called 14 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: a bitch a lot, yeah, but never a slut. And 15 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think. I think my friends that I've 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: joked about it before. M hmm. But that's yeah. No, 17 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever been what about you, I can't. 18 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: I was called a slat, how old? But I've been 19 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: in sixth grade. I was called a slut in sixth 20 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: grade and I when I was nine, one of my 21 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: cousins called me a sweat. Um, I don't know why. 22 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: I've talked about this before, and I think it's because 23 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: I was struggling. I was clearly struggling with something. Um 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: that there was this there were these rumors that I 25 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: was like on drugs and pregnant and all this stuff. 26 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, of sixth grade, a boy in class, uh 27 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: like pointed at me and called me a slut in 28 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: front of everyone. And at the time, there's this weird 29 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: tight rope of and I know we've talked about this, 30 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: especially at that age, where you're like is it cool 31 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: to be a slut? Right? Like I should want sex? 32 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: So is that bad even though maybe I haven't had 33 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: sex or don't want sex. And then there's the other 34 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: side of like, well I don't want people to think 35 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: I'm having too much sex? Or is that going to 36 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: be my thing? Is it going to be like a 37 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: scarlet letter? And you have that moment of indecision of 38 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: like what's the cool thing at that age. So I 39 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: remember kind of being like so what yah, But you know, 40 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: inside I was panicking of like, oh no, what does 41 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: this mean? Right? I think I was known. It's definitely 42 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: more of like the prude um as well as the fife, 43 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: but apparently I'm really intimidating. But also again, I was 44 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: really religious growing up, and I was very outwardly religious, 45 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: and people knew that about me, So I don't think 46 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: that typically was associated with me. Um. And then by 47 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: the time that I kind of was like, oh, this 48 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: is not my life, this is not what I believe 49 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: anymore or whatever, Um, we were kind of adults at 50 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: that point, so it just didn't you know, it didn't 51 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: really translate as much as when I was in my 52 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: development of being a young woman. So yeah, I think 53 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: it's really But again, yes, I've been called a ch 54 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: a lot, so that's yeah. Yeah, I mean we could 55 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: the dichotomy of like slut and bitch and like sometimes 56 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: intertwined is interesting too. And you know, we've been talking 57 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: about this a lot lately of language and language we 58 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: use around women. And I've been watching a lot of 59 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot of horror movies and there's a lot of 60 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: calling of women of slits in there. And I know 61 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: in this classic episode we're gonna share with you, there 62 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: are numbers about, you know, how many people are called 63 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: sluts and how often it comes up in work or 64 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: in school, and what age groups and how it's used 65 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: to punish women, but that it is interesting, um that 66 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: I just assumed you've been called a slept before, but 67 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: you hadn't shame on me. It's just a weird like 68 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: I think that is a common Have I been slut shamed? Yes, 69 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: like the I not necessarily because people shame me for 70 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: having sex, but because of the level of religion that 71 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: was placed in my life having sex before marriage. It's 72 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: always like and have I slept shame people? Absolutely, And 73 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: that's you know, my my horrendous paths, like not necessarily 74 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: going after people saying you're sin or whatever, but just 75 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: like in the pious of like I've never had sex 76 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: till the the you know, that type of level of 77 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: slush shaming definitely was my life and and a part 78 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: of my growth of understanding this is not a thing. 79 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: Virginity is not a trophy. Yeah, And I mean I 80 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: don't know. Definitely, especially when I was in high school, 81 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: I would judge. I would judge other women, and sometimes 82 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: it was just a passing like a fleeting thing. But 83 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, if if they were like rupers, that they 84 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: were having sex with these guys, which was yes, very 85 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: problematic and toxic, and that's what we teach girls unfortunately. 86 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: And I remember this moment so specifically when I was 87 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: in college and we were playing like never have I 88 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: ever and this woman who I just adored and was 89 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: so impressed by, she said, never have I ever had sex? 90 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: And we all kind of looked at her and we're like, 91 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: and she said, you know what, go big or go home. 92 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: I guess I went home. And I love how she 93 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: just embraced it and she wasn't ashamed by it. She 94 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: I just like that. I loved her even more than 95 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: I just was like, this person is so great and yeah, um, 96 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: I know she's not listening, but if you are, I 97 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: remember that and thank you. So yes, we wanted to 98 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: share with you this classic episode on slat shaming. Please enjoy. 99 00:05:50,520 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you from how STORME. Hello, 100 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, 101 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: and welcome to slut Shaming one oh one. Prepared to 102 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: be shocked in a probably a depressing way. Oh, let's 103 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: not make it depressing. It's good for us to understand 104 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: these kinds of things like slut shaming. It is good. No, 105 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: it is good. I don't want to frame it in 106 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: terms of like, this whole episode is going to be 107 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: full of information about shaming women, but it kind of is. 108 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: But this is a topic we want to talk about 109 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: because it is something that has come up a lot 110 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: in past episodes. It is brought up a lot in 111 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: terms of the concept of rape culture. Listeners have requested it, 112 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: and we did an episode away back when now on 113 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: slut Walks in which we talked about the etymology and 114 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: the possible reclamation of the word slut, and we'll give 115 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: you a brief primer on that just to quickly revisit it. 116 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: But we really wanted to focus in on this concept 117 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: of slut shame aiming because it is I mean, by 118 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: this point it is a word that or term I 119 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: should say, that comes up so much some people even 120 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: think that it's lost its meaning. Yeah, that's right. It 121 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: actually made it into the American Dialects Society's twenty twelve 122 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: Words of the Year list in the category of most outrageous. Yeah. 123 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: It defines such shaming as attacking a woman for socially 124 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: stigmatized sexual activity, to which I say, American dialect Society, No, 125 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: it's not even it's so much more than just that, 126 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: and ben Zimmer, though, who was writing for the American 127 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: Dialect Society, traces it to two thousand and six. So 128 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: it does seem like it's it's a millennial term for sure, right, Well, Christen, 129 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: you indicated that that definition was a little bit limited. Yes, 130 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: So let's turn to Andrea Rubinstein at finally feminism one 131 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: oh one, who offers a succinct definition. But I still 132 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: think it's a little more inclusive. She says. It's the 133 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: idea of shaming and or attacking a woman or girl 134 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: for being sexual, having one or more sexual partners, acknowledging 135 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: sexual feelings, and or acting on sexual feelings. Yeah, and 136 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: it usually conforms to patriarchal norms, but it's also highly subjective, 137 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to things like clothing or simply 138 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: expressing opinions or acting in any kind of way out 139 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: in public that people can see. And I say this 140 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: because um slut is a word that comes up a 141 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: lot in YouTube comments and in stuff I've never told 142 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: you videos. Yes, I talked about sex rather frequently, but 143 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: it's I I'm rarely called a slut because it's assumed 144 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: that I have sex, but rather just I'm a slut, 145 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: A dumb slut because I am dispensing information out of 146 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: a female face and Christian Your experience, I think falls 147 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: pretty in line with what Jessica Valenti wrote about in 148 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: her essay. He's a stud, she's a slut, and she 149 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: sites off. She takes off all of these reasons why 150 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: she has been called a slut. She says, I was 151 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: called a slut when my boobs grew faster than others. 152 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: I was called a slut when I had a boyfriend 153 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: even though we weren't having sex. I was called a 154 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: slut when I didn't have a boyfriend and kiss a 155 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: random boy at a party. I was called a slut 156 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: when I had the nerve to talk about sex. I 157 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: was called a slut when I wore a bikini on 158 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: a weekend trip with high school friends. And then here's 159 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: here's really the kicker. She says, it seems the word 160 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: slut can be applied to any activity that doesn't include knitting, praying, 161 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: or sitting perfectly still lest any sudden movements be deemed horrish. Oh, 162 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: but you could even be a slut if you're sitting 163 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: perfectly still, depending on what you're wearing, or simply the 164 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: shape of your body, yeah, how just how your face 165 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: looks yeah, or how your how your boobs and your 166 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: hips and your butt look um. So yeah, it's a lot. 167 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: It really revolves around keeping female sexuality and normative femininity 168 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: in check via forms of overt and also subtle public 169 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: and private shaming. So, of course, the most overt example 170 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: of slut shaming is just calling a girl who has 171 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: had sex with one or one million people a slut. 172 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: But then there are also these more subtle forms of 173 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: slut shaming, which is really where this more insidious type 174 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: of rape culture starts to creep into our day to 175 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: day And one of the most egregious examples in the 176 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: mass media happened a few years ago in the New 177 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: York Times was reporting on the gang rape of an 178 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: eleven year old girl in Texas, and the article commented 179 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: on how she quote dressed older than her age and 180 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: more makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in 181 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: her twenties. So, now that we've established that the slush 182 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: mean can take many different forms, what is a slut? 183 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: Where did this word come from? And honestly, Caroline, this 184 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: is an etymology that I really enjoy, not because it's 185 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: not terrible at all, but just because it hasn't always 186 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: meant what it means today, and that kind of stuff 187 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: always gets my brain really excited. So in six we 188 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: have the first use of the word sluttish in the 189 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: English language, in the Canterbury Tales to describe a lazily 190 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: dressed guy. Yeah, why it got to be so sluttish? 191 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: Take a shower, iron your clothes. My mother is always 192 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: telling me to iron my clothes. That's not really accurate, 193 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: but by the year fourteen hundred the word had already 194 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: come to me. A slovenly woman usually have a lower class, 195 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: typically a kitchen made someone like a kitchen maid, and 196 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: we pretty much hold on to this meaning as the 197 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: primary meaning through the eighteenth century. Yeah, and this is 198 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: where a yield slang terms uh slut wool for dust 199 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: bunny and a sluts whole for a trash can come 200 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: into play. I love that. Yeah, I know, sluts well 201 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: does make me laugh. But by the time though it 202 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: takes a turn for the sexual, it's also a white 203 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: woman focused insult due to racist assumptions about hyper sexualized 204 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 1: black women. So from the get go this word has 205 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: always been laden with classism and racism, right, and because 206 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: in other words, they were already pre existing notions about 207 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: black women being super sexual, so in that in that way, 208 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: calling them a slut wouldn't have been that hell checking 209 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: that it is for women who are supposed to be 210 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: exhibiting normative, white, heterosexual proper femininity. Yeah, I mean that 211 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: was in the era when legally speaking, black women couldn't 212 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: be raped, right, I mean, that's that was the extent 213 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: of this, this kind of racist hyper sexualization. And when 214 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: we move though into the twentieth century, in the fifties, 215 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: for instance, sluts were just called tramps, and slut shooming 216 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: was absolutely happening, but in a confusing societal backdrop that 217 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: we still have today. But sex was just far more 218 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: repressed because you had all of these sexy on screen 219 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: sex symbols. How many times can I say sex in 220 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: one sentence? And you had you know, dating culture is 221 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: taking off, teenage culture is blossoming. Kids are making out 222 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: their necking and petting in the backs of cars down 223 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: lover's lane, but only but not too much. You could 224 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: you could kiss a boy, but you still couldn't go 225 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: too far. But you also had, you know, fashions with 226 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: the cone shaped braws and supertight sweaters. I mean, girls, 227 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, bodies were definitely on display, and you wanted 228 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: to be attractive and you and you wanted to be 229 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: taken on a date, but you you couldn't go you 230 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: couldn't go too far because also the pill didn't exist 231 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: at this point, right, Yeah, and so without accessible birth control, 232 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: slut shaming did have more tangible risks, like getting pregnant. 233 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: And this echoes back about to our Girls in Gangs episode, 234 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: because this was also the heyday of those girl gang 235 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: movies that were which were really all cautionary tales about sluts. 236 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: Look at these women on motorcycles. They'll end up going 237 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: off a cliff, but not before Johnny's knocked her up. Yeah, 238 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: all the loose women. Well, I mean you still see 239 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: that it's such a trope in um like horror movies 240 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: that the girl who has sex is the first to 241 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: get killed. Yeah, all the time. Um. And so today, 242 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: the word slut is still a pretty confusing term, because 243 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: not only do you have men policing women for sexual 244 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: activity or just appearing to be a person who exists 245 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: in the world, but you also have girls calling other 246 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: girls slut and self labeling as sluts, using it as 247 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: an in group term, Hey, slut. This was actually something 248 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: that popped up in a recent episode of Modern Family 249 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: where the oldest daughter, Haley, who is the prototypical fashionista 250 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: a little bit ditzy to say the least, was on 251 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: the phone with her friend and she was just you know, 252 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: they were calling each other slut back and forth, over 253 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: and over and over again. And it was obviously is 254 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: for comedic effect, but it was so cringe worthy for 255 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: me sitting there watching it. And of course she's sitting 256 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: next to Alex, her feminist intellectual sister, who was squinching 257 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: up her nose. But I was like, oh wow, this 258 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: is also this is just happening to this is not 259 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: just on TV. Well, I think I think I mentioned 260 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: I feel bad for always like saying negative things about 261 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: my freshman roommate in college, but I mentioned her in 262 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: our episode on the word bitch because I mentioned my 263 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: discomfort with at words use as a very casual, sisterly 264 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: greeting like I'm not cool with that, I'm knocked down 265 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: with that, And it was very much the same with 266 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: her and with me, and with the word slut. She 267 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: loved to greet her her BFFs by calling them sluts, 268 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: and that was just something that I was always just like, 269 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: that is that's not a positive word. I don't care 270 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: how you spin it like, I'll tolerate it. I'm not gonna, 271 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: you know, yell at you for it. Maybe I should have, 272 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: but you know, I didn't like it. Well. The interesting 273 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: thing is, too, with all of this more recent self 274 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: labeling and kind of adopting it as this in group 275 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: hey girl kind of term, is that in the old 276 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: days we had good girls and tramps, but now we 277 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: have this good versus bad slut where it's like, Okay, 278 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: I'm such a slut. I have sex outside of marriage. 279 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: Everybody knows it. But it's cool because I'm a good slut. 280 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: I'll still be your friend. But there's still the bad 281 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: slut that you can transgress into if you, I don't know, 282 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: do something quote unquote out of line. And it's still 283 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: all of this policing of sexuality. You know, even even 284 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: when say you're freshman your roommate was calling her friends sluts, 285 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't ultimately that friendly because it was still like, hey, 286 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: I know what you're doing. It's not just saying hey, 287 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: slut as a greeting. It's also that thing of like 288 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: if you are getting together with your friends and you're 289 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: talking about like I kissed a boy or I had 290 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: sex with a boy or whatever, you're such a slut. 291 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: Laughing meant in a positive teasing way, but that's that's 292 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 1: such like a little that's such a you know, telling 293 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: your dog to heal. Like I'm watching you. You're telling 294 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: me about this sexual thing, and I'm going to joke 295 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: with you and we're gonna high five, like it's all kosher. 296 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: But I've noticed that you're participating in sexual activity and 297 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: you better watch yourself. And speaking from experience in my 298 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: twenties in particular, that kind of joking does get into 299 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 1: your head. You internalize it as well, and I just 300 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: should just say me, you know, that was something that 301 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: came up at a couple of points. So this is 302 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: something though, that Leora Tannenbaum has written about now in 303 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: two books. The first one was Slut Growing Up, Female 304 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: with a bad reputation who really got this whole conversation going, 305 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: and she referred to slut shaming a slut bashing, And 306 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: she just came out with a new book, I'm not 307 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: a slut slut shaming in the age of the Internet, 308 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: and it partially inspired this episode because it has reignited 309 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: a lot of these conversations about slut shaming and this 310 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: question of what does it mean that girls are now 311 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: just calling each other sluts? And is it possible to 312 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: reclaim this? So focusing in on what Tannonbamb terms that 313 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: reciprocal slut shaming of girl on girl slut shaming, why 314 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: why does it happen? Why would we do that to 315 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: our lady compatriots, Caroline, she says that it's a grasp 316 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: for power and a patriarchal culture. She says, it's basically 317 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: a cheap and easy way to feel powerful. If you 318 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: feel insecure or shamed about your own sexual desires, all 319 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: you have to do is call a girl a slut 320 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: and suddenly you're the one who is good and on 321 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: top of the social pecking order. So, I mean, it's 322 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: the idea that you know, we a lot of people 323 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: who argue to reclaim this word or words like it 324 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: are saying that it's empowering. I'm empowering myself. But then 325 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: you also have to keep in mind that you're you're 326 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: claiming this word within this patriarchal structure that exists. Yeah, 327 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: where in slut still very much and even a majority 328 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: of the time, still has the negative connotation of the direct, 329 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, devaluing of women and girls, right where women 330 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: and girls are policing each other for their degree and 331 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: type and appropriateness of femininity. And Tannebaum takes a really 332 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: intellectual approach to digging into this question of why, especially today, 333 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: this kind of reciprocal slut shaming is happening, And at 334 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: one point she cites a French Marxist philosopher who talks 335 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: about how femininity is an ideology and quote, slut shaming 336 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: is a hailing mechanism that transforms females into both disciplinary 337 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 1: agents as well as feminine subjects. So she goes on 338 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: to write, quote observation becomes a mechanism of discipline and coercion. 339 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: And she even gets into putting this in the framework 340 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: of Jeremy Bentham's panopticon, where essentially, now, especially with social 341 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: media and smartphones and selfies, etcetera, etcetera, we're constantly being monitored, 342 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: but we don't know we're being monitored. And yes, this 343 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: is all through the framework of slut shaming, So we're 344 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: in a slut shaming pan to con Caroline, that's actually 345 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: that is literally this point is where I had to 346 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: stop reading the excerpt of her book on Salon dot 347 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: com because it just was getting so intense slash depressing. 348 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: Not that I was like, this is too hard for 349 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: me to read. It was more like, this is too 350 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: upsetting for me to read because it's so true. The 351 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: fact that we just in general have internalized the fact 352 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: that we're being watched, that everything we do is on 353 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: Instagram or Facebook or like creepshots dot com or whatever, 354 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: which thankfully is no more. Yeah, Well, websites like that 355 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: things places where people are posting terrible pictures, or places 356 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: where you're expected to post a good picture of yourself, 357 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: and we've just internalized that this is natural and normal. 358 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: But it also leads us to police others who aren't 359 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: acting according to whatever sort of ephemeral law we think 360 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: they should be acting according to. Yeah, because when it 361 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: comes to that abiding by the rules of normative femininity 362 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: in today's rules, part of that is presenting attractive images 363 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: of yourself, these like online personas that we have. But 364 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: the line of the good sleut versus the bad slut 365 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: comes up a lot, for instance with the Revenge Porn 366 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: podcast that we did a while back, wherein sexting is 367 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: a common part of today's dating process, and it's totally fine. 368 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: If you are in a relationship with someone and you 369 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: send him or her a naked photo of yourself, that's 370 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: being a good slut. If it ever gets weaked, though, 371 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: or if you're not in a relationship with that person, 372 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: then you're a bad slut. Then you are asking for 373 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: everyone to see you right exactly, And then I mean 374 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: speaking about you know, today's kids, kids these days, well, yeah, 375 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: let's be honest. That leads us to this study that 376 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: was done by UK think Take Demo, which examine the 377 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: use of the words rape, whore, and slut in tweets 378 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: and found that accounts with male names used one of 379 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: those words more than a hundred and sixteen thousand times, 380 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: while accounts with female names did so more than nine 381 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: thousand times. Yeah. This was reported on in Time magazine 382 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: basically saying, hey, okay, here is social media proof that, yeah, 383 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: women are calling each other whores and sluts and making 384 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: rape jokes or outright rape e comments to other women. Well, 385 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: it's the norm. It's become not not just like a 386 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: rape joke or saying like, oh, that test raped me 387 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: or whatever, but commenting and judge commenting on a judging 388 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: women's bodies is the norm. Judging women's sexuality, whether it's 389 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: it exists or not, is the norm. And so if 390 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: you look at it in terms of like a who 391 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: has the power and who's within that power. If if 392 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: the people with the power are making this the norm, 393 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: the people without the power are going to go along 394 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: with it. And that's what these researchers found, which is 395 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: that women are going along with this train in terms 396 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: of calling other women sluts and horse And I would 397 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: say too that again, like slut is such a powerful 398 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: word because it is shorthand for completely and immediately devaluing someone, 399 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,479 Speaker 1: because of the classism and racism embedded in it, and 400 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: because of just how the worthlessness implied with it. At 401 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: least when it comes to calling someone a whore or 402 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: a prostitute, that person is is earning a wage and 403 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: money at least is wielding more economic power than a slut. Right, 404 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: But let's take a little deeper, Caroline, because we're talking 405 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: about a lot of cultural forces at work, a lot 406 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: of nurture, a lot of environment. But there are some 407 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: people to who think that, hey, maybe slut shaming just science, 408 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: And we will talk about that when we come right 409 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 1: back from a quick break and now back to the show. Well, 410 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: so before our break, we gave you a lot to 411 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 1: chew on in terms of not only where the term 412 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: slut came from and what it has meant over the ages, 413 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 1: but really how people nowadays are using it to police others. 414 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: And so let's get into some academic work that's been 415 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: done on the theory surrounding sex, sexual power, and yes, 416 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: slut shaming. Yeah, some think, well, maybe this is just 417 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 1: evolution at work. Maybe females naturally I mean females like 418 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 1: in the natural world sense of the word, we slut 419 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: shame each other for a purpose. And we talked actually 420 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: about some of this research in our podcast not so 421 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: long ago on shine Theory, when we referenced primatologist Sarah 422 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 1: Hardy's research on female competition, because, as we noted, the 423 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: longstanding scientific paradigm was that females were coy passive objects 424 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: of male competition. Men are the competitors, women are the recipients. 425 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: We're just hanging out on chaise lounges doing fainting counches. Yes, 426 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: wait is waiting for a for a male male to 427 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: hop our way, that's right. But it turns out that 428 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: basically the study in the nineteen forties that a lot 429 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: of that was based on was inaccurate. Yeah, poor methodology, 430 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: And it turns out that primate research has found that, surprise, surprise, 431 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: females are actually quite competitive and Hardy actually describes the 432 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: female species at one point as quote flexible and opportunistic 433 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: individuals who confront recurring reproductive dilemmas and trade offs within 434 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: a world of shifting options. So ladies be crafty. Is 435 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: that what that means? I think? So? I think I 436 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: think that that's what that means. So slat shaming is 437 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: a part of that. Well, we are flexible and opportunistic, 438 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: and we are dealing with reproductive dilemmas and trade offs, 439 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: and perhaps splat shaming is just a trade off to 440 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: deal with a reproductive dilemma. Interesting, okay, So yeah, speaking 441 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: of that competitiveness and that sexual power driven competition between women, 442 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: we also talked about this issue in our Shine Theory episode, 443 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 1: and this is coming from a study from McMaster University 444 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: that was conducted by Tracy Villancourt and Anschal Sharma, where 445 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: they sent a plant into basically a lab or a 446 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: classroom where like a human plant, like they sent a 447 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: palm tree with sunglasses. Yes, okay, point taken. They sent 448 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 1: a woman as a plant. She was she was part 449 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: of she was in in the in the scam, she 450 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: was helping run the scam. They sent this woman into 451 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: this room where two female friends were sitting, and the 452 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: female friends had been told you're here as part of 453 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: a study on friendship. What they did not tell the 454 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: women was that they would be sending in this plant, 455 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: this palm tree, this ficus, wearing a bikini, dressed either 456 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: like in a T shirt and jeans or in a 457 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: low cut tight blouse and a short skirt. And then 458 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: they sent this woman in and they just sat back 459 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: and watched because what happened, and you can pretty much, 460 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it's predictable. When the woman went in wearing 461 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: a T shirt and jeans and was like, hey, have 462 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: you seen Professor so and so, the women were like, yeah, 463 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: it's down the hall. Didn't think twice about it. When 464 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: the woman went in, same woman wearing the tight clothes. 465 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: Oh boy, did the slut shaming hit the fans. The 466 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: participants turned on her so quickly, Yeah, saying saying terrible 467 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: things about her, rolling their eyes, making assumptions out loud 468 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: that she was just going to go, you know, screw 469 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: the professor or whatever. Interesting to see how that sexual competition, 470 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: which is I mean unspoken, it's it's not like directly happening, 471 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: but that issue of sexual competition enters this situation so 472 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: fast and furious. Yeah, the participant responses honestly read like 473 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: the intro too, sir, mix a lot's baby got back. 474 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: It was a lot of oh my god, Becky, did 475 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: you see her? But I mean again, using this language 476 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: and these reactions to essentially discount her as a person. Yeah. 477 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: And so what these researchers think is going on is 478 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: that sludge shaming is guarding against mate poaching and ensuring 479 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: access to sexual resources by limiting men's access. So sludge shamming, 480 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: reciprocal sludge shaming, the girl on girl sludge shaming are 481 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: possibly this horrible um by reproductive purpose, solving that reproductive 482 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: dilemma of hey, you know what, we need to keep 483 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: him away from her because she's going to distract him. 484 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: Away from us. Yeah, and women do not like other 485 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: women who they perceived to be sexually permissive. Yeah. This 486 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: um came out of a study published recently in the 487 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: Journal of Social and Personal Relationships titled Birds of a 488 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: Feather Not when it Comes to Sexual permissiveness. And this 489 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: was really interesting because it not only highlighted slut shaming, 490 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: but also the sexual double standard that is intertwined with 491 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: slut shaming. Right, So, these researchers basically presented uh potential 492 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,719 Speaker 1: fictional friends to study participants and had them evaluate a 493 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: bunch of different characteristics, and they found that for women 494 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: and for non sexually permissive men having sexually permissive friends, 495 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: it is not desirable. And then they took it a 496 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: step further and had these fictional friends evaluated on levels 497 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: like competence, emotional stability, warmth, and dominance, and across the board, 498 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: the fictional sexually permissive men were seen as more competent 499 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: and emotionally stable than the sexually permissive women. Essentially, there 500 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: are lots of studies like this that have been done 501 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: examining different kinds of sexual double standards at work, where 502 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: they simply interchange the names you know, John or Joan, 503 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: for the same kinds of qualities, and we find that 504 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: we're often far less comfortable with Joan. Joan is always 505 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: being sent to the corner or Joan well, and it 506 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,959 Speaker 1: is because that sexual permissiveness, which is just a fancy 507 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: way of saying like, hey, yeah, I've hooked up with 508 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: people and people who are honest. Yeah, but no, I 509 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: shouldn't just say that people who are more open to 510 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: maybe non monogamous relationships and hookups and things like that. 511 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: That was interpreted has a form of dominance, and so 512 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: that the researchers think is what made the traits so 513 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: undesirable for these fictional women even when being evaluated by 514 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: sexually permissive women. I think that issue of dominance is 515 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: so interesting and I think that plays so well into 516 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: that evo bio explanation of well, not only the evo 517 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: bio explanation, but also just our historical understanding of the 518 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: words slut and what that means to different people, Because 519 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: because if you're going to judge someone for sexual permissiveness 520 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: or what you perceive to be sexual permissiveness, that means 521 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: that he or in this case, she is not acting 522 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: according to how you think she should be acting, and 523 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: maybe whether you want to be free to make these choices. Also, 524 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: you're there could be some issue of being threatened by 525 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: someone's behavior being outside the norm. Perhaps, I think there's 526 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: maybe the threatening factor at work, and also to the 527 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,479 Speaker 1: fear of being associated with someone. It's like, well, if 528 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: I'm hanging out with quote unquote slotty Jane, then maybe 529 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: they'll think that I am like they They'll think I'm 530 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: a Joane too, a gang of slutty Jones. No one 531 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: wants to be slooty Jane. But let's slip the script 532 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: and talk about slutty John for a second, because one 533 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: of the more recent questions with this whole slutge shaming 534 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: thing is well, can men be slut shamed? Because it's 535 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: rather debatable because the entire existence of sludge shaming, in 536 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: this concept of sledge shamming is based on the patriarchy, 537 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: and within that embedded in it to it is normative 538 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: femininity and heteronormativity and all of as many women's studies 539 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: buzzwords as you can fit into one sentence, all adding 540 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: up to a sexual double standard that is permissive for 541 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: John's and restrictive for Jones. Right, I mean, can men 542 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: be shamed about certain behaviors or made to feel embarrassed. Yeah. Sure, 543 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: But in terms of the very specific realm that we're 544 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: discussing right now, in terms of calling them a slut, No, 545 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: men can't really be slut shamed in the same way 546 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: that women are, because, you guys, the root of this 547 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: word is it's a female gendered insult, and man slut 548 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: just arguably doesn't carry the same weight that calling a 549 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: woman a slut does, because I mean, you mentioned the 550 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: sexual double standard. Slut shaming sort of hinges on that 551 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: the idea that female sexuality is inherently bad and male 552 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: sexuality is inherently awesome. Well, and this was something that 553 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: you and I, Caroline, we're just talking about casually before 554 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: the podcast in terms of the man slut not caring 555 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: as much weight, because the threat of being labeled as 556 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: a man slut or a man whore is that he's 557 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: just probably not going to make a very good boyfriend. 558 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: But if you are a woman and you are called 559 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: a slat, then that means that your body is dirty 560 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: and you're a bad person. You're a bad person, and 561 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: that's someone who you probably shouldn't you you shouldn't even 562 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: really be interested in having sex with that person because 563 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: it's just you know, used goods. So there's so there's 564 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: usually so much more to it. And it's interesting too 565 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: to look at the gendered language of sexually promiscuous people. 566 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: And I'm pretty sure that we've talked about this before 567 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: on the podcast UM, but there is this often cited 568 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: ninety three study looking at the words the gendered words 569 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: for promiscuous people. They identified two hundred in the English 570 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: language relating to sexually promiscuous women and only twenty for men, 571 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: just twenty. And I would really love if there are 572 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: any linguists listening, if you know of a more recent study, 573 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: or if you could just conduct an updated study. I 574 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: want to know. There is one slightly more updated but 575 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: still dated study from in Finland that identified four hundred 576 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: Finnish words for promiscuous women and only a hundred and 577 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: twenty for promiscuous men, which often tended to be more tolerant. 578 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: And I laughed out loud when I got to the 579 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,240 Speaker 1: part where they were listing various terms for men and women, 580 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 1: and men had names like bore and stallion, but women 581 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: were called village horse, and I from the from the 582 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 1: sheer surprise of it, just laughed out loud because they 583 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 1: they don't play around. They cut right to the chase 584 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: on that one. Yeah, yeah, I mean you have men 585 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: could be that could be called pimps, which again it's 586 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: reflective of his ownership of other women players, similar thing 587 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: Cassanova's and Don Juans. That sounds Depp, yes, and you're 588 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: just a Johnny Depp. I mean, at worst you can 589 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: call a man a dog, but a lot of times 590 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: to those those male pointed insults usually have some kind 591 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: of female ricochet effect back to say a mother or 592 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: a son of a or a you know whatever kind 593 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: of word I can't say on the podcast, right, But 594 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: I mean, even the word dog, however derogatory you mean 595 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: it or you intended to be, it's still more of 596 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: a way that he's treating other people, rather than a 597 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,399 Speaker 1: commentary on how many people he's having sex with. Yeah, 598 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 1: I mean there is no what's the word for a 599 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 1: male mistress? There is none? You know, yeah, kept man. 600 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: Even that sounds like if I just envisioned pools and cabanas, 601 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: So it doesn't even seem that bad. So so, even 602 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: in our flut shaming language, it's still so female focus. Um. 603 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 1: Although we did find a two thousand thirteen dissertation written 604 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: by Michael Flood called Male and Female Sluts, Shifts and 605 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: the Abilities in the Regulation of sexual relations among young 606 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: heterosexual men. Yes, there's a lot. There's a lot in 607 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: that title. Um. And he was focusing though on college 608 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: men in Australia, and his research did find concerns among 609 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: those Aussie blokes of being labeled a male slut. Yeah. 610 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: And so he proposes that this concern itself signals a 611 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: slight weakening of the sexual double standard and an increased 612 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: policing of male sexual behavior, which to that I say, great, 613 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,919 Speaker 1: but I'll believe it when I see it. I mean, well, 614 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: it's I mean the keywords, there's a slight weakening. Um. 615 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: And I do think hearing especially from men directly on YouTube, 616 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: because that's where I hear the most directly throughout via comments, 617 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: there is a lot of there. There is a lot 618 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: of concern out there. I think that men men feel 619 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: police in certain ways as well, but it's almost the reverse. 620 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: It's more, uh, you're not having enough sex? Yes, yes, 621 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,479 Speaker 1: a feeling like they need to meet up to these 622 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: standards of masculinity rather than you know and being like 623 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,359 Speaker 1: what if I what if I don't want to well 624 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: hook up all the time. But I mean there's also like, 625 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: if you look at all the cultural and social ideas 626 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: behind calling a woman a slut policing her sexuality, if 627 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: you look at like Rush Limbaugh talking about Sandra Fluke 628 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: and her campaign for birth control, affordable birth control. I mean, 629 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: one writer, I can't remember if it was Valenti, but 630 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: one writer brought up the fact of like, okay, well, 631 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: if men and young boys are being encouraged to go 632 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: out and have all the sex, and women are being 633 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: told that they're bad people if they go out and 634 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: have any sex or even think about it, Like, what's 635 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: happening in that in that interim? Like who are these 636 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: women that men are supposed to go out and be 637 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: so virile with? And like what are women? Like, who's 638 00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: nobody's talking. Let's let's talk about this. What's in the 639 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: middle ground? Yeah, I mean, and this is where we 640 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: get to the impact of slug shaming, because I think 641 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:10,320 Speaker 1: that middle ground is a lack of sexual communication, issues 642 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: with consent, of people not knowing what we're so often, 643 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: especially in US culture, I'll be very interested to hear 644 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 1: from international listeners about this. We are so openly sexual 645 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: and yet so simultaneously repressed that it I mean, I 646 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 1: think it reaks so much havoc in the bedroom or 647 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: the backseat or wherever sex sexual contact is happening. It 648 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: leads to so many kind of nasty expectations on both sides. Exactly. Yeah, 649 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: I mean it is. It is absolutely a lose lose 650 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: situation for women and men alike because it is constantly 651 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: reinforcing the sexual double standard, and it also handicaps healthy 652 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:56,359 Speaker 1: sexual exploration and growth in young women who are terrified 653 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: of being labeled sluts to the point that they're not 654 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: even going to masturbate because they feel like that's going 655 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: to make them this thing, it's dirty thing. Yeah, And 656 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: that also means that you're getting a lot of ill 657 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: informed kids out there who are afraid of STDs, but 658 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,359 Speaker 1: who might end up contracting them because they don't have 659 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: they're not equipped with the right info. And it also 660 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 1: is going to inhibit sexual communication and disclosure between partners 661 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 1: or just between friends or healthcare providers, and engaging in 662 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: other kinds of sex that isn't penis in vagina intercourse 663 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: that would therefore constitute sluttish behavior in the modern sense 664 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,800 Speaker 1: of the term, and thinking that that's not sex as well. 665 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,720 Speaker 1: So it's yeah, it just we really just have this 666 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: this brimming sluts hole of garbage thanks to this thing. 667 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: And of course we have to talk about in the 668 00:41:52,640 --> 00:42:01,359 Speaker 1: context of rape, because slutge shaming quickly spirals into victim aiming, right, 669 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, the thought that oh, she's she's dressed a 670 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: certain way, she's acting a certain way, she looks a 671 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: certain way, so you know, she deserves whatever bad thing 672 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: happened to her. You know, if the girl in Steubenville 673 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: who was drunk and so she's somehow deserved to be 674 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: sexually attacked exactly. Women always have to not only apparently 675 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: police other women's bodies, but police their own body as well. 676 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: We are constantly in charge, but we we are both 677 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 1: the prisoners and the guards of our own pent opticons. Caroline, 678 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: that's exhausting to think about it, Well, it is, it's 679 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: exhausting to live it. But also one thing that has 680 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: gotten a little exhausting too for some people is the 681 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:45,280 Speaker 1: constant use of flut shaming as sort of the jumping 682 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: off point to comment on things. And that is a 683 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 1: really ineloquent way of this question of okay, are we 684 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: not overusing this term? Is everything now flut shaming? Can 685 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: we ever critize female sexuality in a healthy way and 686 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: it not be slut shaming? Right? I mean A couple 687 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 1: of writers have talked about this, including Kellibuseman over at Jezebel, 688 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: who wrote that all too often slut shaming is used 689 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 1: to police women for policing other women, which is just 690 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:24,360 Speaker 1: hypocritical abusement and others call for a more open dialogue 691 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 1: and an acknowledgement that Okay, you're doing one thing and 692 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,359 Speaker 1: you think it one way, and you're doing another thing 693 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: and think another way, and it's okay if people disagree. 694 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: It's better too, like you said, open that dialogue and 695 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 1: actually have a healthy critique of you know, whether it's 696 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 1: pop culture or just sexuality or whatever. It's better to 697 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,359 Speaker 1: have that conversation and say, okay, well I disagree with you, 698 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: but here's why and what do you think. Then to 699 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: just immediately shut down the conversation with well, that's slut shaming, 700 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: so your opinion doesn't matter, right, because it always points 701 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,839 Speaker 1: the finger to the woman, right, And I mean, the 702 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: the examples where this really came up big time. Where 703 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,240 Speaker 1: after Snad O'Connor wrote that open letter to Miley Cyrus 704 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,359 Speaker 1: post MTV v M as with with the twerking as 705 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: the kids say, and then when Rashida Jones went on 706 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: a bit of a tweet fest and also wrote a 707 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: Glamour essay all about how uh you know female celebrities 708 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: of pop stars essentially need to cover up and that 709 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,839 Speaker 1: is very much paraphrasing her, And so that was then 710 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,879 Speaker 1: flipped around on both Snad O'Connor and Rashida Jones as saying, hey, 711 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: stop being so sledge shaming and sex negative, right, And 712 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 1: I mean you could argue that certain things could have 713 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: been phrased better and either one of those essays, but 714 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: I mean the point remains that you have two women, 715 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 1: Shened O'Connor and Rashida gents who have very certain types 716 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: of perspectives and they're allowed to have those perspectives, um, 717 00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,040 Speaker 1: but certain other people definitely felt attacked when the his 718 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,239 Speaker 1: opinions were presented. Yeah, for instance, one of Rashida Jones, 719 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: the tweet really that started this whole Rashida Jones debacle 720 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 1: involved her calling referring to these women as dressing like horrors. 721 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:17,360 Speaker 1: So doing the whole like horror thing not a not 722 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,400 Speaker 1: a great move, but I think that it is valid 723 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: for her and say Shenado connor and whomever else to 724 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,400 Speaker 1: critique representations of women in pop culture, like what is 725 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 1: what are we kind of collectively worshiping? Right? Because they 726 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,760 Speaker 1: both do, however, eloquently or ineloquently, bring up the idea 727 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,799 Speaker 1: that you can't forget the context in which these conversations 728 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 1: are occurring and in which these music videos or fashion 729 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 1: shows or whatever you're looking at are occurring, which is 730 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: that same patriarchal structure. I'm just I'm picturing like a pergola, 731 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: patriarchal pergola, uh, in which we're all having some sort 732 00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: of awful patriarchal cocktail party where we think that if 733 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:03,799 Speaker 1: we dress a certain way or act a certain way, 734 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: we are freeing ourselves and being empowered. When people like 735 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 1: sned O'Connor saying, you're just playing to those puppet masters, 736 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 1: those patriarchal Pergola puppet masters, Yeah, because that's the thing too. 737 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: We we haven't even and won't have time to even 738 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: get into the clothes issue. But cover up is never 739 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,120 Speaker 1: the answer to any of this, I think it's it's 740 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: a lot more instructive, perhaps to dig into let's let's 741 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,480 Speaker 1: remember where this word slut comes from and where the 742 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,840 Speaker 1: problem really arises. And to me, that comes up a 743 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 1: lot with the classism and racism inherently tied up with it. 744 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,120 Speaker 1: And so when it comes to this question of like, well, 745 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 1: why don't we just reclaim this word, why don't we 746 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: It's fine, We're we're just women on the go, we're 747 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,680 Speaker 1: on birth control, we have our I U D S, 748 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: we can be slets do and it can be fine. 749 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I think my feelings can can definitely 750 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: be summed up about the multifaceted negative connotations of this 751 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,719 Speaker 1: word by Feritanus. She's the executive director of Black Women's Blueprint, 752 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 1: and she wrote, if people really put their minds to it, 753 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,279 Speaker 1: they could probably reclaim the word slut. But for me, 754 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,080 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to because reclaiming means that it was 755 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: yours in the first place. And the word slut is 756 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: not something that I created for myself. It's something that 757 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 1: was created for a particular purpose, and the purpose wasn't 758 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 1: to serve me. And I think that touches on issues 759 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 1: of class and rates, which are so inherent in the 760 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,799 Speaker 1: word and its use and evolution. And when it comes 761 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 1: to that class factor too, it's very much alive and 762 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 1: well in its usage today, especially when it comes to 763 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: reciprocal slut shaming. And this was demonstrated by a pair 764 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:58,080 Speaker 1: of sociologists who essentially tracked girls on a college campus 765 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:03,760 Speaker 1: and found highly class stratified patterns of slut shaming where 766 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,799 Speaker 1: you have wealthier girls who are usually in sororities, who 767 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,440 Speaker 1: would tend to specifically slut shame less wealthy girls who 768 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,880 Speaker 1: were in sororities, but then also the less wealthy women 769 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,200 Speaker 1: doing the same thing to the wealthier women, saying they're 770 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,120 Speaker 1: just rich sluts whatever. But when it came to the 771 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: power dynamics, those wealthier women's slut shaming was more damaging. Yeah, 772 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: And it's it's interesting to look at the hierarchies that 773 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 1: these sociologists reported on, because the wealthier or better off 774 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 1: college women considered sluts to be trashy, lower class women, 775 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,800 Speaker 1: whereas if you look at the less wealthy, non sorority 776 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,839 Speaker 1: women on campus, they considered sluts to be the rich 777 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 1: bees in sororities because each of them had a different 778 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: definition of what was trashy and slutty that did not 779 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,920 Speaker 1: include themselves, and so this freed them up to act. However, 780 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 1: they so chose to act while still being able to 781 00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 1: police the behavior of women who were different from them. Well, 782 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: and then too when we I mean, you've already touched 783 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 1: on this, but when you move into the race factor. 784 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,360 Speaker 1: This came up big time with the slut walk movement 785 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,200 Speaker 1: that was really on fire a few years ago, and 786 00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: we did a podcast about it, and black women really 787 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 1: wanted nothing to do with it because of how that 788 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,799 Speaker 1: word has related to them historically as black women. And 789 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,360 Speaker 1: we cited in that podcast on slut walks Susan Britton's 790 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:43,040 Speaker 1: open letter from black women to slut walk organizers, which said, quote, 791 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 1: we do not have the privilege or space to call 792 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: ourselves flut without validating the already historically entrenched ideology and 793 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 1: recurring messages about what and who the black woman is. 794 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: We don't have the privilege to play on destructive representations 795 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 1: burned in our collective minds, on bodies and souls for generations. 796 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 1: And that's a big reason why. In a more recent 797 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,160 Speaker 1: article in The New York Times by Annah Holmes, asking 798 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 1: this question of can we reclaim slut? And she interviews 799 00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,520 Speaker 1: Lee or a tannem Bomb about her new book, and 800 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,799 Speaker 1: the answer is still kind of shakes out to be 801 00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,080 Speaker 1: no for these same kinds of reasons of hey, this 802 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,759 Speaker 1: is this is loaded with a lot of garbage. It 803 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:25,840 Speaker 1: is lead with a lot of garbage. Just it's it's 804 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,880 Speaker 1: it has never ceased to be an ugly word. And 805 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 1: I and I understand, I absolutely understand the impetus behind 806 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,160 Speaker 1: wanting to reclaim it and grab it from the hands 807 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,120 Speaker 1: of the people who use it to try to oppress 808 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: you or check your behavior or police the way you 809 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: look at, think, feel whatever. But I just don't know 810 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:49,480 Speaker 1: that calling yourself and your friends or anyone a slut 811 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,839 Speaker 1: is the answer to that. And it's certainly not going 812 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,799 Speaker 1: to be our path to eradicating slut shaming. And this 813 00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,480 Speaker 1: is a poor analogy, but to me, it's like telling 814 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,480 Speaker 1: women that, hey, you know what's gonna cure rape culture. 815 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,799 Speaker 1: I was just telling rape jokes all the time. We 816 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,640 Speaker 1: just like make it funny, then it'll be fine. Then 817 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:09,560 Speaker 1: it'll just stop because we'll be like it'll take the 818 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,839 Speaker 1: sting out of it. Like Nope, that hasn't happened at all. 819 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:18,200 Speaker 1: So I I don't know the answer to what's gonna 820 00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:20,920 Speaker 1: stop slut shaming. I think that us stopping calling each 821 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:22,719 Speaker 1: other sluts as Tina Fey told us to do and 822 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,239 Speaker 1: mean girls a long time ago. It's a good start. Yeah, 823 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,440 Speaker 1: I think that's a good start. But I mean, we 824 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,759 Speaker 1: have so much sort of digging to do in terms 825 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,879 Speaker 1: of really unpacking how we feel about sexuality of both 826 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:40,400 Speaker 1: men and women and and trying to trying to um 827 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,879 Speaker 1: not change how people think, although that would be nice, 828 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,319 Speaker 1: but but just to just to become aware that we 829 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:52,480 Speaker 1: even have these prejudices, these these feelings, these negative feelings 830 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,040 Speaker 1: about how women even moved through this world, and on 831 00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:01,799 Speaker 1: an individual level, keeping ourselves accountable for or the policing 832 00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:07,560 Speaker 1: behavior that we may consciously or even subconsciously an act 833 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,400 Speaker 1: right because, like you said at the beginning of the podcast, Kristen, 834 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,360 Speaker 1: slug shaming does not have to involve me calling someone 835 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,880 Speaker 1: a slut. All it has to do is involved me 836 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,040 Speaker 1: criticizing someone's skirt for being too short or something along 837 00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,880 Speaker 1: those lines, and then I have effectively slut shamed someone, 838 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,799 Speaker 1: and I have played into this patriarchal Pergola not the 839 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,960 Speaker 1: patriarchal Pergola. Carol, Well, we definitely want to hear from 840 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,759 Speaker 1: listeners about this. Mom Stuff at how stuff Works dot 841 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,280 Speaker 1: com is our email address. Do you have the brilliant 842 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 1: plan of how we can finally end slut shaming? Do 843 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,320 Speaker 1: you think that it's a term that can be reclaimed? 844 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:47,200 Speaker 1: And I'm curious too for parents with kids, is this 845 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,920 Speaker 1: something that you think about as well, especially if you 846 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:54,200 Speaker 1: have girls like to slut shaming play any role in 847 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,040 Speaker 1: your at home sex education. I want to know all 848 00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,800 Speaker 1: of your thoughts and perspectives. Mom Stuff at house stuff 849 00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:02,839 Speaker 1: works dot com again is our email address. You can 850 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,840 Speaker 1: tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, 851 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:08,920 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 852 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:17,080 Speaker 1: you right now. Well, I've got a letter here about 853 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,240 Speaker 1: our episode on Lady Lawyers and halve a dress speaking 854 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,400 Speaker 1: of slug shaming that definitely happens in the courtroom. And 855 00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,720 Speaker 1: this was from Monique, who is currently a law student 856 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,160 Speaker 1: in her third year of law school, and she said, 857 00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:30,920 Speaker 1: I was so happy to hear that you decided to 858 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,760 Speaker 1: tackle the lady lawyer dress issue. I too, have faced 859 00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,279 Speaker 1: the frustrations around what to wear in the courtroom and 860 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,200 Speaker 1: even at work. But there were a couple of issues 861 00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,480 Speaker 1: I think he missed out on. First, the regional differences 862 00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,920 Speaker 1: in what is appropriate for court wear. For example, in Florida, 863 00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,879 Speaker 1: what would be appropriate in a Miami courthouse is much 864 00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,560 Speaker 1: different than what would be appropriate in a Jacksonville courthouse 865 00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,680 Speaker 1: or a courthouse in the Panhandle. This is also true 866 00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,560 Speaker 1: between states. I recently went to a conference with students 867 00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,840 Speaker 1: from different states and found that in some areas, wearing 868 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,799 Speaker 1: brightly colored suits or shoes is not frowned upon. The 869 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,680 Speaker 1: general rule of thumb is a more liberal a location, 870 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,560 Speaker 1: the more liberal the rule address. I was told by 871 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,759 Speaker 1: mentors to always, if at all possible, sit on a 872 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:15,840 Speaker 1: court case for the judge you will be trying a 873 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 1: case before to get the general rules of that courtroom. 874 00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,640 Speaker 1: Every judge is a bit different, and it's best to 875 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:22,719 Speaker 1: be prepared with the clothing that they will receive you 876 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,680 Speaker 1: the best. In The other issue I think you missed 877 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,440 Speaker 1: on is hair. As a woman of color, I'm especially 878 00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,240 Speaker 1: sensitive on issues of hair in the courtroom. The general 879 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,959 Speaker 1: argument I've heard is that nothing in your appearance should 880 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,960 Speaker 1: distracting the law you are presenting. This means that for 881 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,400 Speaker 1: most women of color, you must have your hair permed. 882 00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,520 Speaker 1: While I've seen a few black female attorneys with natural hair, 883 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,319 Speaker 1: it's few and far between. Perming my hair was a 884 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,920 Speaker 1: decision I made on my own early in my life, 885 00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,799 Speaker 1: so continuing it isn't as much of a hardship as 886 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,520 Speaker 1: for women who come to law school and then decide 887 00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,239 Speaker 1: they have to do it. The legal field is uniquely 888 00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,040 Speaker 1: behind the times, but as the influx of more females 889 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,160 Speaker 1: come into the field, hopefully some of these issues will 890 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,480 Speaker 1: be fixed. So thanks Monique, and good luck with the 891 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,799 Speaker 1: rest of law school. And I have a letter here 892 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:13,120 Speaker 1: from Rachel. She says, I live in Morganton, West Virginia, 893 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,320 Speaker 1: and I'm a regular listener and lover of your podcast. 894 00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,200 Speaker 1: I have so many favorites and recommend your podcast almost 895 00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:22,880 Speaker 1: everyone I know. Thank you, Rachel. She goes on to say, 896 00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,279 Speaker 1: this Valentine's Day, a lot of women are going to 897 00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,680 Speaker 1: see Fifty Shades of Gray, which got me and my 898 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,879 Speaker 1: gal pals chatting about the series. So I've only read 899 00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,200 Speaker 1: the first book. I found the story to be just 900 00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,560 Speaker 1: as Lisa Wilkinson put it, quote, domestic violence dressed up 901 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:40,759 Speaker 1: as erotica. I personally thought it was poorly written and 902 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,919 Speaker 1: have read accounts from b D s M community members 903 00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,000 Speaker 1: stating that it's a completely wrong portrayal of their community. 904 00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,680 Speaker 1: The pre ticket sales for this movie are record breaking, 905 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,680 Speaker 1: which had us all talking about rape culture, and we 906 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,319 Speaker 1: all agreed that this would be something awesome to hear 907 00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,719 Speaker 1: from you gals. Well, Rachel, you'll be happy to hear 908 00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,480 Speaker 1: that not only have Chris and I received a lot 909 00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:04,640 Speaker 1: of letters about this very same topic, but we have 910 00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,120 Speaker 1: now put it on our two podcast lists and that 911 00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,759 Speaker 1: episode will be coming to you very soon. That's right. 912 00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:13,680 Speaker 1: Kink Week is happening in March on stuff Mom Never 913 00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:17,279 Speaker 1: Told You, So, tune in or maybe just now be 914 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,080 Speaker 1: a little weird about so if you have letters or 915 00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,279 Speaker 1: requests for us Mom stuff in House Stuffworks dot Com 916 00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:26,160 Speaker 1: is our email address and links to all of our 917 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,560 Speaker 1: social media as well as all of our blogs, videos, 918 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,560 Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one with our sources so you 919 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,959 Speaker 1: can read up as well all about sledge shaming. Head 920 00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:42,560 Speaker 1: on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com 921 00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,560 Speaker 1: for moral this and thousands of other topics. Does it House, 922 00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:54,160 Speaker 1: stuff works dot Com