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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. So Tracy, obviously,

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Speaker 1: we've done plenty on logistics and supply chains and the

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Speaker 1: ports this year, but there's a pretty important perspective on

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Speaker 1: all this that we still haven't hit directly. I feel

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Speaker 1: like we have done quite a few angles on ports

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Speaker 1: and logistics and supply chain issues, but you're right, there

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Speaker 1: is actually a big one that we haven't done in detail,

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Speaker 1: although we've touched on it at various times, and that

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Speaker 1: is what exactly is going on with the labor market

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Speaker 1: the truckers, you know, be they over the road truckers

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Speaker 1: or um dre age truckers, what exactly is going on there? Right?

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Speaker 1: So we know, like for example, that you know, there's

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Speaker 1: stress on all aspects of the human. The human aspect

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Speaker 1: of the supply chain has been put under stress. I

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Speaker 1: know we did an episode last year with Craig Fuller

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Speaker 1: Freight Waves talking about the sort of the two different

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Speaker 1: trucker market and there's the sort of over the road

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Speaker 1: long haul truckers that people most often prime associate in

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Speaker 1: their minds with truckers and a lot of them, at

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Speaker 1: least some of them do pretty well. However, the pay

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Speaker 1: and conditions for the port truckers, essentially the workers who

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Speaker 1: line up at the ports to take the goods from

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Speaker 1: a port to more inland warehouse not is well paid

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Speaker 1: and very different conditions. And there's been stories about long

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Speaker 1: wait times this year, long way times where they're not

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Speaker 1: technically getting paid for it. And so the sort of

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Speaker 1: actual working conditions wages for the various people at the

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Speaker 1: ports is something we need to dive into further. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like there's a lot going on specifically

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Speaker 1: at the ports obviously, and we've been speaking about that

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Speaker 1: quite a lot. This idea of people, you know, showing

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Speaker 1: up they're supposed to be earning money, but then they

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Speaker 1: have to wait for ten hours or whatever until they

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Speaker 1: actually get something to load and take somewhere else, and

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Speaker 1: in the meantime they're not actually earning anything. But that said,

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Speaker 1: there is this sort of broader trend that this fits into,

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Speaker 1: which is the idea of, I guess, a shift in

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Speaker 1: power or a swing back in the balance of power

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Speaker 1: from capital to labor, and is it workers who have

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Speaker 1: a lot of the bargaining advantage at the moment of

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Speaker 1: versus companies and everyone. I guess everyone just seems to

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Speaker 1: have been sort of stressed out by COVID, by the

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Speaker 1: pandemic over the past two years. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: in certain industries seem to be working very hard and

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Speaker 1: under stressful conditions, and does that start to impact working

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Speaker 1: conditions exactly right, So we are going to get the

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Speaker 1: sort of the labor slash organized labor perspective. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the port truckers and other

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Speaker 1: people who work within the ports complex, but the port

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Speaker 1: truckers in particular, there've been for years stories about wage

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Speaker 1: that poor conditions. There's an amazing USA Today investigative piece

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Speaker 1: in seventeen about the labor status of the port truckers. So,

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Speaker 1: but without further Ado, let's jump right into it. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna be speaking with Ron Herrera. He is the Teamsters

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Speaker 1: national Port Director and he is part of an effort

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Speaker 1: to organize the port truckers. So Ron, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for coming on on odd Lots. Thank you, Joe,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thank you, Tracy, and thank you for

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Speaker 1: you helping expose a entity and labor that definitely needs exposing.

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Speaker 1: So before we even get into some of the specifics

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Speaker 1: you're working on. What do you talk to us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about what your division of the Teamsters does

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Speaker 1: generally and who within the port complex is and is

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Speaker 1: organized or isn't part of unionized labor, like, give us

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Speaker 1: a feel for what you do and just the overall

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Speaker 1: conditions there. Actually it's pretty simple. So I oversee the

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Speaker 1: ports in the country, and the main focus is Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles and Long Beach Harbors because of the state of

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Speaker 1: California and trying to affect change in one state too

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Speaker 1: spread to others. But we're a national division with with

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Speaker 1: staff that puts out buyers throughout the country. We also

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Speaker 1: monitor across border trucking and imports of product through the

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Speaker 1: utilization of tractor trailer drivers. The entry from o time

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Speaker 1: ASA into the United States from Mexico. It's very critical

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Speaker 1: in this. So one of the things that we do

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Speaker 1: is we oversee across border trucking UM as far as

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Speaker 1: the driver's go you in the ports of Long Beach

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Speaker 1: as talk specifically about Los Angeles and Long Beach. Sure

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Speaker 1: you have two basic categories of drivers. You have one

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Speaker 1: that gets all the benefits of an employee and then

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Speaker 1: you have others that are misclassified and owner operators and

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Speaker 1: receive no benefits for you know, the work that they

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Speaker 1: do from the trucking companies that they hold for. That's

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Speaker 1: the basis of what we do. It's complicated in the

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Speaker 1: sense that there are so many laws that are attached

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Speaker 1: to this, and so we're constantly trying to create policies that,

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Speaker 1: you know, help these drivers. Maybe before we get into

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Speaker 1: exactly what it is you're trying to change, you could

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Speaker 1: give us some color on on what it's been like

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Speaker 1: to be a trucker over the past couple of years.

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Speaker 1: Are the problems are the issues? Obviously you mentioned contractor status,

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Speaker 1: but what is it exactly that is putting pressure on

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Speaker 1: this particular workforce. Well, the pandemic exposed it everything. It

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Speaker 1: peeled back behindion. Things that have been going on for

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Speaker 1: years were exposed. But we were in a national pandemic

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Speaker 1: and like all of us, we were susceptible to, you know,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately getting sick, and we had quarantine that were we

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Speaker 1: were supposed to abide by if if we did get

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Speaker 1: infected by this virus. But what did that mean to

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Speaker 1: a contracted sport driver. It meant that there was no

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Speaker 1: minimum wage because they're not employees. To e b D.

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Speaker 1: It meant that they didn't have health care because they

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Speaker 1: weren't an employee. It means that they weren't paying in

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Speaker 1: the Social Security They didn't receive workers compensation to get

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Speaker 1: injured or in this case, would have been sick. They

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Speaker 1: didn't have the ability to you know, join a union

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Speaker 1: and other protections on their job. You know, practically during

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Speaker 1: the last couple of years, it's been a fight to

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Speaker 1: get you know, PPE and the ability to create safety regulations. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: in California, we our mayor in the county and the

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Speaker 1: state governments all past worker protections and the drivers that

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Speaker 1: are independent carriers, these were their only protections on the job,

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Speaker 1: ones that had to be legislated. So I think that that,

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Speaker 1: like I said earlier, is it was appealing back of

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Speaker 1: the onion that exposed all the you know, the safety

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Speaker 1: atrocities that that go on if you're an independent carrier.

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Speaker 1: So the employeed, the people who are on staff full

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Speaker 1: time with benefits, those truck drivers, and then there's the

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Speaker 1: essentially the gig workers. How does one end up as

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Speaker 1: the other? Why are there two sets and why is

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Speaker 1: it that one company couldn't have their own workers on

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Speaker 1: staff but also employed gig workers. Like, how does one

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Speaker 1: how did it check out that way? I guess I

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Speaker 1: think it takes advantage of the current laws of misclassification.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, in recent settlements on XBO, drivers

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Speaker 1: won a thirty million dollar settlement from federal judge independent

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Speaker 1: contractor rule were ruled as employees. In the basis of

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Speaker 1: that suit was around wade staff. That's you both spoke earlier.

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Speaker 1: But I think what it is, it's it's you know,

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Speaker 1: companies taken advantage of a system that, for the most part,

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Speaker 1: is devastating to a worker. Obviously, there's choices that you know,

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Speaker 1: drivers make on their own truck, but that should come

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Speaker 1: with benefits. Also, there's always the argument about you know, okay,

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Speaker 1: you have an independent contractor specifically most product for a

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Speaker 1: certain trucking company, but isn't you know, entitled to benefits.

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Speaker 1: So companies take advantage of it. You know, their overhead

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Speaker 1: is lower obviously because the cost factor to do business

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Speaker 1: is much lower because there isn't healthcare costs, there isn't

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Speaker 1: over time. You spoke about way time, there's you know,

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Speaker 1: no way time differential an employee right once he punches

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Speaker 1: the clock and gets in his truck, gets paid for

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Speaker 1: all time work. So it's a definite business advantage that

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Speaker 1: companies utilize to the detriment of of workers. And it's

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Speaker 1: something that the Changeters have fought for for many years,

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Speaker 1: is the dismantling of this miss classic Asian and trying

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Speaker 1: to equal the plane field from both sectors, both independent

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Speaker 1: contractors and employees. Many court cases have been ruled upon

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Speaker 1: where companies have utilized independent contractor model and you know,

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Speaker 1: courts of rule that they're actually not contractors, that they're

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Speaker 1: being utilized as employees, and the companies actually have changed

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Speaker 1: their status and gone to an employee model. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess we understand why a company would want to

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Speaker 1: use contracted drivers versus full time employees. But just going

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Speaker 1: back to Joe's question, maybe if we flip it, you know,

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Speaker 1: why would companies want to have full time employed drivers

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Speaker 1: And how does someone become a full time employeed driver

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Speaker 1: versus staying as just a contractor. I think that depends

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Speaker 1: on the model that a company chooses to you know,

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Speaker 1: run with or operate with. I don't think it's anything

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Speaker 1: that we decide as a union. Unfortunately, if it was

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Speaker 1: our decision, will naturally we go to the employee months cost.

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Speaker 1: Everything is based on cost. If they can get away

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Speaker 1: with the independent model and it's a it's you know,

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Speaker 1: lesser overhead for them, what does that mean more profits?

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Speaker 1: You know, I would concentrate on on the fact that

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Speaker 1: that the cost factors benefits you know, these employers unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: But just to be clear and to sort of follow

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Speaker 1: up on Tracy's question, a company like say XPO, it

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Speaker 1: does have it does have on staff drivers, correct, yes,

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Speaker 1: so so the big companies do have some there there

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Speaker 1: must have some impulse where at least they don't want

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Speaker 1: to go a contract labor in my work right, as

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Speaker 1: a union official, it's a deterrent. It's also a deterrent

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Speaker 1: to unionize. The model of the independent model also restricts,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's law restrictions as far as being a

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Speaker 1: worker you know, is right to organize. That's being challenged

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Speaker 1: right now Instide of California, the right of independent contractor

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Speaker 1: to become union. So it's it's pretty it's really complicated

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Speaker 1: as far as why a company would you know, utilize

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Speaker 1: independent contracting costing and it bocks the it blocks the

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Speaker 1: unionization of their of their employees. So just before we

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Speaker 1: get into what you're trying to change, I just want

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Speaker 1: to go back to my first question, and you describe

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Speaker 1: the pandemic exposing workplace issues that had been there for

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Speaker 1: a long time. Could you maybe give us a little

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Speaker 1: bit more color on that, Like what exactly are people

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Speaker 1: upset about at the moment. What is it exactly that

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Speaker 1: the pandemic has put into overdrive. Like if you could

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Speaker 1: go into detail the day in the life of you know,

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Speaker 1: say a contracted driver at a port, what is it

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Speaker 1: that made the past year or so um much more difficult?

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Speaker 1: The fear of being infected right out of the box.

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Speaker 1: The fear of being infected because these workers aren't they're

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Speaker 1: not workers take the work remotely. They have to come

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Speaker 1: into work every day. They had to come into work

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Speaker 1: every day of the pandemic in order to make a living.

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Speaker 1: So their exposure to the virus was, you know, a

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Speaker 1: hundred times more than obviously someone that could work remotely.

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Speaker 1: The fact that legislation policy had to be passed in

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Speaker 1: order to acquire PPE. You report to a trucking company

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Speaker 1: every day and you provide a service for that trucking company,

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Speaker 1: but that trucking company wasn't mandated to give out PPE.

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Speaker 1: But the utilization of your skill was for the profit

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Speaker 1: of that trucking company. And let's say a driver unfortunately

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Speaker 1: did get intracted or had to go on your quarantine.

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Speaker 1: Independent drivers are paid by the load. They don't get

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Speaker 1: paid you know, sick time. And that was a big

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Speaker 1: issue because the drivers who were exposed I had to

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Speaker 1: go on in quarantine. So a driver had to make

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Speaker 1: a choice do I continue working, do I do the

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Speaker 1: right thing in quarantine? But what do you do when

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Speaker 1: you have no income coming in? I mean, people don't

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Speaker 1: realize myself included, right, you know what a decision that

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Speaker 1: had to be on a family. I'm sure there were

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Speaker 1: drivers that you know, we're infected, but still had to

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Speaker 1: go out there and drive their truck because you know,

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Speaker 1: they weren't entitled a stick time. They don't have health

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Speaker 1: insurance provided to them. So that was a major factor

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Speaker 1: that we were fighting for. On the unemployment side, Right,

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Speaker 1: if a driver had an extended time off it because

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Speaker 1: you know he was like, he wasn't entitled to unemployment automatically,

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Speaker 1: that had to be applied for and then you know,

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Speaker 1: a special accommodation was given later on that that independent

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Speaker 1: contractors I could receive some kind of benefit. So, um,

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Speaker 1: you have to remember that these drivers pay for maintenance,

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Speaker 1: It pay for fuel, right, they pay for their chuck payment.

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Speaker 1: They possibly at least chucks from you know, their chucking companies.

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Speaker 1: So there's always debt attached to an independent contractor. And

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Speaker 1: then you add everything we just talked about. It was

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Speaker 1: devastating to them to have to go through the last

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Speaker 1: two years of this pandemic. We touched on it briefly,

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Speaker 1: but and there's been many stories about it. How have

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that the truckers get paid by the load,

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Speaker 1: and so in theory, if there's really long wait times

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Speaker 1: at the ports, that's fewer loads per day that they

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Speaker 1: can your loads per week that they can move in

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Speaker 1: longer hours. How has that been a factor in this

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Speaker 1: and just in general, you know, it's like we hear

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Speaker 1: so much about the labor shortage and the crunch of

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Speaker 1: the ports. Have workers, whether independent contractors or staff workers,

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Speaker 1: been able to secure meaningfully higher wages and better benefits

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Speaker 1: due to the imbalance? You know? Um, it's interesting because

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Speaker 1: everyone talks about the supply chain we've all been involved

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Speaker 1: with it. Our international union has been as far up

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Speaker 1: as our General President Mr. Haffa making commitments to UM,

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Speaker 1: the White House and President Biden that the team ships

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Speaker 1: would do their part to help out in the supply chain.

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Speaker 1: And you know, uh, what has been going on in

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Speaker 1: the port as far as shortages rights, that's what you're hearing.

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Speaker 1: Driver shortage, Driver shortage, right, But you're looking at an

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Speaker 1: operation that needs to be dove into a little bit

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Speaker 1: better for efficiency. Number one. We have relationships with the

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Speaker 1: port directors both in Los Angeles and Long Beach, and

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Speaker 1: both of them know that the operation has to change,

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Speaker 1: but I don't. We're getting back to the driver shortage.

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Speaker 1: Is there actually a driver shortage? Or is there a

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Speaker 1: shortage of good paying union jobs? Is there an attraction

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Speaker 1: to young people right to pursue a career in trucking?

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Speaker 1: Are the pay and benefits equal to some worker that

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Speaker 1: can achieve the middle class? I think that the industry.

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Speaker 1: The fact that you know, low wages are paid and

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Speaker 1: drivers you know, are expected to wait in line is

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Speaker 1: definitely a factor here. You know that you don't get paid.

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Speaker 1: So every conversation that we have as a union to

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Speaker 1: you know, officials that are looking at a more efficient port.

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Speaker 1: We always talked about, you know, a road jobs. If

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Speaker 1: there were high road trucking jobs with the coorts, you know,

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Speaker 1: there would be more interest in being a driver, and

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't be in the situation that we're in now.

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Speaker 1: Who are the types of people who are becoming drivers now?

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Speaker 1: Because you know, again presumably with all this cargo going

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Speaker 1: through the ports, all this demand for truckers, presumably the

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Speaker 1: companies have been trying to find new ones. So who

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Speaker 1: is actually coming into the industry at the moment, that's

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Speaker 1: a good question. Currently the dominant worker there isn't um

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Speaker 1: you know, or basically all immigrants, so um, you have

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Speaker 1: that factor involved as well. I wouldn't think that there's

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Speaker 1: a rush, right of of incoming prospects to come into

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Speaker 1: industry that needs a lot of work right, needs a

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Speaker 1: lot of attention and needs unionization. So the the way

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Speaker 1: you reframed the questions like is there a truck driver

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Speaker 1: shortage or is there a shortage of good paying jobs

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Speaker 1: that have that attract woul attract workers I think was

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Speaker 1: a good reframing. But have we seen specific examples of

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Speaker 1: companies either with their staff or trying to attract contract workers,

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Speaker 1: essentially meaningfully change how the job is is compensated or

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Speaker 1: done such that it does become more appealing. Like what

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Speaker 1: have we seen? Have we seen shifts on the employer

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Speaker 1: side to sort of address the shortage as you see it?

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Speaker 1: I think companies have raised wages to try to accommodate it.

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Speaker 1: But you know, when a driver is paid by the load,

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Speaker 1: the revenue that that he receives from that load by

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Speaker 1: haven't heard, you know, on that side of it. On

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Speaker 1: the employees side, definitely, I've heard companies that have reason wages.

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Speaker 1: So here's a very dumb question, but why don't they

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Speaker 1: just start paying people who are waiting to take on loads?

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Speaker 1: And I mean the reason, the reason, But the reason

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Speaker 1: I ask is, we know this is an issue. We

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Speaker 1: know that people are waiting for far longer than they

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Speaker 1: used to have to. We know that the Biden administration

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Speaker 1: has made noises about increasing pay and benefits for this

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Speaker 1: particular area of the workforce. Um and we've heard from

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Speaker 1: the companies that they want to try to fix things.

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Speaker 1: And it seems like incentivizing more drivers into this market

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Speaker 1: by actually paying them for you know, all the hours

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Speaker 1: that they are devoting to picking up and loading and

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Speaker 1: unloading a container. It seems like that would be an

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Speaker 1: obvious thing to do to help I couldn't agree with

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Speaker 1: you more. I mean we we hear uh stories of

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Speaker 1: drivers waiting two, three, four or five six hours for

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Speaker 1: a load, sometimes even more. So that's definitely something that

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Speaker 1: that you know, has to be looked at. And it's

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Speaker 1: not every load. Both our port directors, you know under

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Speaker 1: the under you know, tough conditions, right do A want

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Speaker 1: to do a great job, but I have to, you know,

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Speaker 1: applaud the Biden administration for attempting to make things better.

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Speaker 1: I know that he's gotten the stakeholders together. Um, We've

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Speaker 1: had numerous meetings with both port directors here and Long

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Speaker 1: Beach in Los Angeles. We formed a collaborative. We meet regularly.

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Speaker 1: I meet with you know, the different unions that have

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Speaker 1: a state here in the ports. So we're moving in

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Speaker 1: the right direction. But the fact that companies are still

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Speaker 1: being sued by workers for ways that you know, companies

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Speaker 1: are still taking advantage of an industry because you can't

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Speaker 1: have it both ways, right. You can't pay low wages

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Speaker 1: and then expect lines of workers to be at your

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Speaker 1: door trying to you know, become become a truck driver

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Speaker 1: just doesn't work that way. There has to be incentives

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Speaker 1: for people to choose a career in driving a truck.

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Speaker 1: I was a truck driver. I'm one of them, right.

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Speaker 1: I raised a family on the wages and benefits of

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Speaker 1: reunionized trucking company delivery company. I did, you know, very

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Speaker 1: well for myself because of collective bargaining and the union

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Speaker 1: that I belonged to. So I'm trying to take what

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Speaker 1: was benefited by myself and my family and expose that

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Speaker 1: to these drivers to give them a chance, to give

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Speaker 1: working families a chance to you know, create, you know better,

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Speaker 1: and by a working by form that definitely has you know,

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Speaker 1: safety requirements and and folks can work without the fear

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Speaker 1: of of exposing themselves too. In this case of virus

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Speaker 1: that could literally kill you. There's a lot of turn

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Speaker 1: people are quitting their jobs at high levels. Do you

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Speaker 1: think any companies are or will come around to see

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Speaker 1: essentially having a unionized workforce as essentially a benefit that

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Speaker 1: It's like if you come here, union are part of

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Speaker 1: a union, and that that is a certain like sort

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Speaker 1: you know, much like say four. One case or healthcare

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Speaker 1: is that that is an attractive thing about working for

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Speaker 1: a company that would make a worker less likely to

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Speaker 1: quit and create a just sort of more stable, less

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Speaker 1: turned workforce without as much efforts at constantly recruiting and

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Speaker 1: training people. I don't want to be, you know, an idealist,

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Speaker 1: but I sure hope so I think that there's uh

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Speaker 1: having a unionized workforce creates a stable workforce for a company. UM.

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Speaker 1: Look at some of the big companies at UPS. Their

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Speaker 1: brand is efficiency and production, yet they're very productive when

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Speaker 1: it comes to their business model and their profits. Compare

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Speaker 1: that to Amazon to fed X, where part time drivers

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Speaker 1: are prominent. I raised, as I said earlier, I raised

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Speaker 1: the family on the benefits of UPS and the partnership

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Speaker 1: with the teamsters. So, um, I look at that as

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Speaker 1: the model, and I hope that you know, owners of

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Speaker 1: these trucking companies and these employers know that their workers

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Speaker 1: actually mean something. I mean, the word essential was coined

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Speaker 1: over the past two years, and I think that economically

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Speaker 1: that word needs to be utilized as far as finances

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Speaker 1: of a worker is dependent on. So but what I'm

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Speaker 1: saying is if workers are essential, then they have to

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Speaker 1: be compensated as such. So why don't you walk us

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Speaker 1: through what it is that you're trying to do right

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Speaker 1: now for the drivers and why now feels like I mean,

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Speaker 1: presumably it feels like an urgent issue. We've sort of

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Speaker 1: discussed why, But why is it a good time to

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Speaker 1: try to push through these changes? I think you know,

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Speaker 1: the pandemic has has also given workers whole a different attitude.

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Speaker 1: Right they were these workers right like I said earlier,

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Speaker 1: You know, they had to kind of work, there was

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Speaker 1: no remote working, and they put a value on themselves

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Speaker 1: and they know that their value was being taken advantage down.

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Speaker 1: So what would I like to see in the future unionization?

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Speaker 1: I believe in collective bargaining because with a union contract,

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Speaker 1: benefits are raised automatically through to the contract. Bargaining and

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Speaker 1: representation by a union is essential to help create a

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Speaker 1: middle class that has rotten, is deteriorated. We all know

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Speaker 1: that we are trying to definitely attack this classification. I

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Speaker 1: think it's a system that was taken advantage that by

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Speaker 1: companies to the unfortunate exploitation of workers. So, um, we're

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Speaker 1: currently organizing a company in certain kind Alfornium, both the

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles and San Diego, and it's going to be

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Speaker 1: a real challenge. Two hund fifty drivers and combined and

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Speaker 1: their quote unquote allegedly misclassified drivers, but yet they signed

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Speaker 1: petitioning cards to join the Teamsters. The board and the

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Speaker 1: courts are I'm sure you're gonna be busy on determining

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Speaker 1: whether these workers can actually join the Teamsters are not.

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Speaker 1: First they have to determine whether these independent contracts are

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Speaker 1: actually employees. But recently the Teamsters these workers and the

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Speaker 1: Teamsters want to not the teachers. But these workers won

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Speaker 1: a thirty million dollar settlement where the courts ruled that

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Speaker 1: they were employees. So we are in the cup right

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00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: now of creating a president's that workers in this case

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Speaker 1: Board truck drivers will define itally benefit and they'll be

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Speaker 1: able to join their union and enjoy benefits that they

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00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't normally enjoy as an independent contractor could you explain

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00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: that a little bit um further? What will happen? So

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Speaker 1: who are the two hundred and fifty drivers who have

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Speaker 1: signed this intent and what will happen if they are

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Speaker 1: recognized as being uh properly characterized as employers? Just like

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Speaker 1: walk through the sort of like specifics of where we're

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Speaker 1: talking about and what the ramifications of it would be. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are XPO drivers in in the City of Commerce

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Speaker 1: and in San Diego, and they've joined together in a

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Speaker 1: petition to um you know, be represented by the teamsters.

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Speaker 1: We are currently in litigation and who Aboard filing to

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Speaker 1: determine that we hopefully will get a ruling you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously in favor of the worker is but you know,

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Speaker 1: right now it's just a wait and see. We're in

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Speaker 1: a wait and see position right now. But it's going

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Speaker 1: to create presidents and we're very excited about the possibility

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Speaker 1: that this be little that the worker's favored. That's you know,

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Speaker 1: these drivers will be a part of our our union.

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Speaker 1: I realized there was one thing about the current working

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Speaker 1: conditions that I wanted to ask you, and we didn't

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Speaker 1: touch on it yet, but the move to seven at

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Speaker 1: the Port of Los Angeles, how is that actually going

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Speaker 1: from the driver perspective and what are the challenges in

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Speaker 1: shifting to that model efficiency wise? Right on loading and

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00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: loading the cargo. Obviously it benefited from it, but when

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Speaker 1: you have a certain amount of drivers and those drivers

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Speaker 1: have restricted hours per the Department of transportation and no

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Speaker 1: new drivers are coming in. I don't think that mathematically.

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Speaker 1: You know, that was something that that actually benefited it

433
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:33,239
Speaker 1: from it. You know, seven project definitely something that was

434
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: a good thing driver wise, possibly didn't work out mathematically. Yeah,

435
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: I guess that's kind of tough. If you're already facing

436
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: a challenge of getting enough drivers, how do you expand

437
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: it to seven? I don't know. You know, like one

438
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: way of thinking about the last two years obviously, is

439
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: you put forward is these jobs need to be better,

440
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: and they need to pay more, and they need to

441
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: have more benefits. They need to more health benefits so

442
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: that they can attract a more stable and a larger workforce.

443
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: And then there are other people, of course, who look

444
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: at this and say, oh, we have we should just

445
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: automate everything, and we need more robots. And the reason

446
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: why we have this bottleneck at the porch is because

447
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: it's not sufficiently high tech. What do you say, I mean,

448
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: you must encounter this a lot of this argument that

449
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: human workers at the ports are part of the problem

450
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: and that we need more automation. What's your view on that?

451
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: And I assume I'm guessing you disagree, but I'm not sure,

452
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: what's your perspective on what it would take to make

453
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: the ports run better. Obviously it's a complicated issue, and

454
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: you know, other unions that operate down there, the principal

455
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: unions are definitely uh, they understand automation, but they also

456
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: don't understand the lots of jobs. I can only speak

457
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: on you know, how that affects chuck dragoning logistics. I

458
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: don't know if you want to be with your family

459
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: next to an automated vehicle, try wing down the highway.

460
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: I certainly wouldn't. In the truck driving aspect of it,

461
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: you have to have a physical being inside that truck

462
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: making determinations of safety. You don't on a computer doing it.

463
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: What if there's something that that affects the technology. Um,

464
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk right now about automated trucks

465
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: right driver list trucks platooning, where trucks follow in tandem

466
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: one another, you know, through a Bluetooth type technology. I

467
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: think that's pretty space age right now for our highways

468
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: and I'd hate to see that, you know, every come

469
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: to something that's that's reality. But obviously the automation piece

470
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: of it is a big concern down at the ports.

471
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: But you know, I'm not the person that could speak

472
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: on the loading and voting of cargo. Got it, um.

473
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: I know we've been focused on on labor issues. But again,

474
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 1: from your perspective of talking to people day in day

475
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: out about the challenges that they face as port drivers

476
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: at the moment, is there anything else that could be

477
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: done to make their lives easier or to make the

478
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,919
Speaker 1: ports more efficient overall? I think one of the things

479
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: that we agree on with the porto actors. Technology companies

480
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: like ups out electronic dispatching with loads and enter into

481
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: their facilities, and I think it's something that can be

482
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: utilized at at the ports. But I mean consider this, right,

483
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: so all three of us on our own trucks, does

484
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: that mean that we have to invest in technology within

485
00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: that truck, you know, network a server that allows us

486
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: to be dispatched electronically or is that something that the

487
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: ports is going to pay for? Is that your trucking

488
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: company going to pay for? But that's your truck. So

489
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: right now, you pay for diets, right now, you pay

490
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: for all changes. Right now, you pay for fuel. So

491
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: this is this is one of the things that we've

492
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: been bringing to light that you know, in order to

493
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: have a more efficient sports you have to utilize technology

494
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: to you know, track loads coming in and out more efficiently,

495
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: and it definitely has to be monitored within that you know,

496
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: the individual trucks and if not, you're going to continue,

497
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: you know, with the current system. But then again, let

498
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: me bring back the fact that you're you're an independent contractor.

499
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: Is that another expense for you? So the idea idea

500
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: is there is potential for technology to greatly improve the

501
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: operation of the ports, but that it's sort of an

502
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: impediment if you have a fragmented truck driver model, independent

503
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: truckers who would theoretically have to make the investment on

504
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: their own as opposed to something more centralized and broad

505
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: bay take the question mark off and that's a statement,

506
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,720
Speaker 1: got it, That is perfectly said. That is perfectly say.

507
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: You can use that, you can you can use that

508
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: one for you could use that. Thank you. Actually, I

509
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: guess I have one last question and it's it's just

510
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 1: a little bit more short terms. So obviously like technology

511
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: and as you describe it has the potential to presumably

512
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: make the ports more efficient, is there anything like a

513
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: cute in the short term, like that's not you know,

514
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: big investment of technology, probably gonna take a while to

515
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: have an effect. But right now, you know, the US,

516
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: we're still talking about slowness at the ports, in a

517
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: long wait time, etcetera. Is there anything like the short

518
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: term from your perspective, that could things moved faster. I

519
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: think the collaboratives that have been formed as a result

520
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 1: of the Biden administration, you know, exposing this and asking

521
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: stakeholders to get involved, get involved. And you know the

522
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: fact that government has taken a interest in this. But

523
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: but the collaboratives or the local collaboratives, it's working. Um.

524
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: Stakeholders are actually talking. Stakeholders are at the table, different

525
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: unions are at the table. Companies are at the table.

526
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: We just got visited here in Los Angeles by the

527
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: Secretary of Transportation. We were visited by the Secretary Labor

528
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: and the Deputy Secretary and Labor. We were visited by

529
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 1: the Secretary Labor of California. So we have to continue

530
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: to do that. I need constantly with the port directors.

531
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: With longshore, it's pain duvidence, without a doubt. We know

532
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: that we're in a tough time. The product is because

533
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: of the pandemic. Right online shopping and and uh, internet

534
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 1: shopping is just exploded, right. Delivery is is just off

535
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: the charts. Volume of MERCHANDISEES has risen to where we

536
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: don't have capacity. But I think that we keep doing that.

537
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: That's a definite vehicle to better the situation at the

538
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 1: ports because we all have when we sit down, we

539
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,959
Speaker 1: all have we have different ideas, but you know they're

540
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: good ideas well. Ron Her, thank you so much for

541
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: coming on. This is a sorely needed perspective on the show.

542
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: So thank you for coming out, Adlocks, I got. I

543
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: believe that thank you go to you, Joe and Tracy,

544
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: because I think it's very important that our opinions right

545
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: what we think. You know, as hard as organized labor goes,

546
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: it's very important. And thank you for allowing me to

547
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 1: come on and sharing my views. It is our pleasure.

548
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Thanks Tracy. I thought that was

549
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: a really helpful episode. I mean, it's interesting. There are

550
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: a few themes that I like. One is um his

551
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: point about up has multiple times like this idea that

552
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,919
Speaker 1: maybe unions could be considered to be a benefit where

553
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: a company actually sees it as a strategic asset, and

554
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: it really feels like if churn remains high and if

555
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: the quit rate remains high for a lot of industries,

556
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: you could see companies essentially thinking or more companies essentially

557
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: thinking of like unionization is like, hey, if you want

558
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: to you know, if you work here, this is something

559
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: that you can be part of as like a strategic

560
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: selling point. Yeah, I mean I could see that also

561
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 1: just broadly more pay and benefits and maybe not being

562
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: super stressed out, which is something that we spoke about

563
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 1: with the with Stinson Dean. This idea that employers could

564
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: start over hiring and providing more pay and benefits for

565
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: their workers if if they're really struggling to find people.

566
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: That seems fairly obvious. But the other thing, the other

567
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: thing that struck me was just how we got into

568
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: a place where big logistics companies have this mix of

569
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: full time and contract but beyond that, they also have

570
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: this weird mix of private versus outsourced capital. Because the drivers,

571
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: as Ron was mentioning, do you have to own their

572
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: own trucks? Um? You know, often they borrow money um

573
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: at ownerous terms in order to actually do that. And

574
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: then it kind of begs the question of if there

575
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 1: are any efficiency or tech improvements that you actually to

576
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,760
Speaker 1: start implementing. Who pays for that? And if the onus

577
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: is going to be entirely on the workforce to upgrade

578
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: its technology, it does feel like it's just going to

579
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: take years and years to do, if it's possible at all. Yeah,

580
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: I thought that was incredibly interesting in a dynamic that

581
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought of before. I mean, like, if

582
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 1: you think of you know, people think of gig workers

583
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: obviously these days, like say a company like Uber comes

584
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 1: to mind, but that is essentially like it's a centralized

585
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: it's one company and all of their employees used the

586
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: Uber technology stack of dispatch, etcetera. But it's obviously a

587
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,919
Speaker 1: lot more complicated when there's multiple companies and they're sort

588
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: of true gig workers and they really there is not

589
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: one company at the heart of it. And then it's like, yeah, okay, great,

590
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: so we're going to have like some new technology dispatched

591
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: thing and reduce the way ties. But yeah, as you said,

592
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: as Ron said, like that's great, but are the other

593
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: driver is gonna have to pay for it and they

594
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: all going to go to the same system. It seems

595
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: in a sort of like true gig working environment that

596
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: seems a lot more difficult. Yeah, and it's something I

597
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: hadn't considered before. I mean, I guess it gets back

598
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: to the question of who exactly is going to pay

599
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: for it, and whether it's easier to roll these things

600
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 1: out on a centralized or decentralized basis. But yeah, it's

601
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: it's it's an interesting thought. And I guess the one

602
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: other thing, and this is a very broad theme of

603
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: a lot of things, is this idea, you know, is

604
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: Ron put it in the beginning, peeling back the onion

605
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: the pandemic, exposing a lot of what was already there

606
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 1: just a really important point. And we see that with

607
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: truck drivers, and we see that with people who work

608
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: in meat plants, packing plants and other things like that.

609
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: It's like there has been like sort of like deeply

610
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: problematic aspects of the labor force and wages. That for

611
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 1: pork drivers is one of them. And it's the sort

612
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: of stress imposed by the last two years that have

613
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: really brought brought them to light and perhabs showing that

614
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: was like this actually can go back, like this is

615
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: like sort of deeply inequitable prior to the pandemic, and

616
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: now everyone sees playing this day. Yeah, that seems to

617
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: be the big theme. And even just thinking about health insurance,

618
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,760
Speaker 1: I mean, how long have people pointed to health insurance

619
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: in the US as a big problem. But there's nothing

620
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: like a pandemic to really crystallize how much of a

621
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: problem it is, especially for gig workers who don't have

622
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: it at all. And you know, going back to the

623
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: outsourcing of capital, if you have to if you borrowed

624
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: money to acquire your truck and maintain it and so forth,

625
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: like you really can't miss time and you really do

626
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,720
Speaker 1: not have much leverage. And sure, maybe you want higher wages,

627
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: but if you have to like make these like back

628
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: pay because you're paying off your truck, can you just

629
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: go to another industry? Like that's maybe not, Like this

630
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: is a big cost burden and so it really does

631
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: like potentially worse some worker leverage. Yeah, all right, uh

632
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: well on that happy note, shall we leave it there?

633
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 1: Let's leave it there. Okay. This has been another episode

634
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 1: of the Odd Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can

635
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe

636
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 1: Wisn't Though. You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart.

637
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: Follow our guest on Twitter, Ron Herrera. He's at Ron

638
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: Herrera Underscore three. Follow our producer Laura Carlson, She's at

639
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: Laura M. Carlson. Followed the Bloomberg head of podcast Francesco Levie,

640
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: and check out all of our podcasts at Bloomberg under

641
00:44:27,120 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: the handle at podcasts. Thanks for listening. One