1 00:00:15,304 --> 00:00:15,824 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,664 --> 00:00:23,824 Speaker 2: I am Graham Wood, and I wrote how bronze age 3 00:00:23,864 --> 00:00:27,344 Speaker 2: pervert charmed the far Right for the Atlantic, and it's 4 00:00:27,384 --> 00:00:28,224 Speaker 2: the story of the week. 5 00:00:29,224 --> 00:00:33,584 Speaker 1: Back in twenty sixteen, I interviewed Milo Uanapolis in his 6 00:00:33,664 --> 00:00:37,784 Speaker 1: apartment in London. Milo was then the troll leader of 7 00:00:37,824 --> 00:00:41,264 Speaker 1: the alt right. He wrote all these articles for Breitbart 8 00:00:41,344 --> 00:00:45,464 Speaker 1: that advocated ideas that horrified anyone who is in power. 9 00:00:46,264 --> 00:00:48,544 Speaker 1: So I asked him why he went to events with 10 00:00:48,624 --> 00:00:52,704 Speaker 1: the white supremacist Richard Spencer. He said, I don't see 11 00:00:52,704 --> 00:00:54,744 Speaker 1: it as a bad thing that I surround myself with 12 00:00:54,984 --> 00:00:58,984 Speaker 1: edgy people because they're interesting. I'm not gonna not hang 13 00:00:58,984 --> 00:01:01,864 Speaker 1: out with someone because the New York Times calls him racist. 14 00:01:02,224 --> 00:01:05,104 Speaker 1: To my surprise, I found out in those few days 15 00:01:05,464 --> 00:01:11,224 Speaker 1: Milo was funny and well read and host I kind 16 00:01:11,264 --> 00:01:15,184 Speaker 1: of enjoyed being around him, even though I hated every 17 00:01:15,424 --> 00:01:19,424 Speaker 1: single horrifying thing he said to me. My article was 18 00:01:19,424 --> 00:01:23,184 Speaker 1: called Milo Yanopolis is the pretty monstrous face of the 19 00:01:23,224 --> 00:01:27,264 Speaker 1: alt right. Milo is so thrilled with that article that 20 00:01:27,344 --> 00:01:30,584 Speaker 1: he texted me for years afterwards, inviting me to hang out. 21 00:01:31,664 --> 00:01:35,264 Speaker 1: I never did, partly because I didn't need to. Soon 22 00:01:35,464 --> 00:01:38,304 Speaker 1: there would be so many Milo's that you could not 23 00:01:38,584 --> 00:01:46,744 Speaker 1: avoid them. Writing is hard. 24 00:01:46,944 --> 00:01:50,264 Speaker 3: Who's got that kind of time when you're already busy 25 00:01:50,424 --> 00:01:53,464 Speaker 3: trying to dijon stand So it turns on a mic 26 00:01:53,784 --> 00:01:57,464 Speaker 3: made the twitles enough because a journalist Trand has got 27 00:01:57,464 --> 00:02:01,304 Speaker 3: in that gigle jobs single Stormy. 28 00:02:01,584 --> 00:02:02,184 Speaker 1: Just listen. 29 00:02:02,264 --> 00:02:03,904 Speaker 3: The smart people speak. 30 00:02:05,664 --> 00:02:06,304 Speaker 1: Conversation. 31 00:02:06,704 --> 00:02:09,304 Speaker 3: Film information is the story. 32 00:02:20,824 --> 00:02:24,744 Speaker 1: Mile Anapolis has since faded into obscurity, so much so 33 00:02:24,984 --> 00:02:26,824 Speaker 1: that the last time I heard about him he was 34 00:02:26,864 --> 00:02:31,904 Speaker 1: working for Kanye West's presidential campaign. But the far right 35 00:02:31,984 --> 00:02:36,424 Speaker 1: has gotten themselves some new philosopher kings. These guys, and 36 00:02:36,504 --> 00:02:41,224 Speaker 1: yes they're all guys, call themselves the Dark Enlightenment. They're 37 00:02:41,344 --> 00:02:47,344 Speaker 1: unapologetically racist, sexist, and authoritarian. Graham Wood wrote about one 38 00:02:47,384 --> 00:02:51,064 Speaker 1: of their leading thinkers, who calls himself the Bronze Age 39 00:02:51,104 --> 00:02:55,784 Speaker 1: Pervert for The Atlantic magazine. I did some pranks in 40 00:02:55,864 --> 00:02:58,064 Speaker 1: high school, but I didn't go to high school with 41 00:02:58,184 --> 00:03:00,304 Speaker 1: the comedy writer and the guy who played Ryan on 42 00:03:00,344 --> 00:03:04,984 Speaker 1: The Office, bj Novak. So what was bj Novak's great 43 00:03:05,024 --> 00:03:05,784 Speaker 1: high school prank? 44 00:03:06,024 --> 00:03:09,904 Speaker 2: Bj Novak's greatest accomplishment before he became famous for the 45 00:03:09,904 --> 00:03:13,344 Speaker 2: Office was going to the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, 46 00:03:13,824 --> 00:03:16,504 Speaker 2: and he saw that there were these tours that you 47 00:03:16,504 --> 00:03:18,984 Speaker 2: could take audio tours to tell you what you were 48 00:03:19,024 --> 00:03:21,384 Speaker 2: looking at, why it was important, and so on. And 49 00:03:21,424 --> 00:03:24,544 Speaker 2: he realized that if you took that out, that you 50 00:03:24,584 --> 00:03:28,144 Speaker 2: could put in anything you wanted. And so he and 51 00:03:28,544 --> 00:03:30,904 Speaker 2: a couple of his friends they got a classmate of 52 00:03:30,944 --> 00:03:35,104 Speaker 2: theirs to record a tour of the exact same exhibition 53 00:03:35,224 --> 00:03:39,744 Speaker 2: that was at the Museum of Fine Arts, only narrated 54 00:03:39,824 --> 00:03:43,024 Speaker 2: by a total madman, a guy who claimed that he 55 00:03:43,144 --> 00:03:46,184 Speaker 2: was lev Da Vidovich Brunstein, which is the birth name 56 00:03:46,184 --> 00:03:50,704 Speaker 2: of Leon Trotsky, and who, instead of just narrating what 57 00:03:50,784 --> 00:03:57,544 Speaker 2: the paintings were, divulged his own crazy opinions, saying personally, 58 00:03:57,624 --> 00:04:00,704 Speaker 2: I think this is a piece of crap, and saying 59 00:04:01,544 --> 00:04:04,544 Speaker 2: have to resist the urge to take sledge hammer, break 60 00:04:04,584 --> 00:04:07,744 Speaker 2: open and rip this scroll to shreds with my teeth. 61 00:04:07,864 --> 00:04:10,144 Speaker 1: I feel like they read PALFI, like, how else do 62 00:04:10,184 --> 00:04:11,104 Speaker 1: you come up with that idea? 63 00:04:11,304 --> 00:04:13,504 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's brilliant, doesn't it. And you know, the people 64 00:04:13,544 --> 00:04:16,304 Speaker 2: at the Museum of Fine Arts, they think back pretty 65 00:04:16,304 --> 00:04:18,584 Speaker 2: fondly about that that prank, But. 66 00:04:18,584 --> 00:04:21,064 Speaker 1: They also forgive you for a prank when you become famous. 67 00:04:21,504 --> 00:04:23,904 Speaker 1: Who was the other guy, the one who did the 68 00:04:24,024 --> 00:04:27,144 Speaker 1: Eastern European accent that you so expertly imitated. 69 00:04:27,504 --> 00:04:30,384 Speaker 2: It turns out that it was a Romanian classmate of 70 00:04:30,504 --> 00:04:35,664 Speaker 2: bj Novak, and this Romanian his name was unknown until 71 00:04:35,704 --> 00:04:36,344 Speaker 2: pretty recently. 72 00:04:36,784 --> 00:04:39,184 Speaker 1: Is that his real speaking voice or he's doing a bit. 73 00:04:39,584 --> 00:04:41,984 Speaker 2: It's pretty close to his actual speaking voices. 74 00:04:42,064 --> 00:04:44,464 Speaker 1: So, oh, okay, he speaks. 75 00:04:44,144 --> 00:04:48,504 Speaker 2: With an accent, but he is a highly educated, highly literate, 76 00:04:48,904 --> 00:04:51,824 Speaker 2: fluent speaker of English when he wants to be so 77 00:04:52,304 --> 00:04:55,824 Speaker 2: the more he wants to screw with you, the stronger 78 00:04:55,904 --> 00:04:57,784 Speaker 2: he will put on the accent. 79 00:04:58,464 --> 00:04:59,704 Speaker 1: Okay, what's his name? 80 00:05:00,024 --> 00:05:04,064 Speaker 2: His name is Kostin Alamaru and he had immigrated from 81 00:05:04,144 --> 00:05:06,064 Speaker 2: Romania at the age of roughly eleven. 82 00:05:06,384 --> 00:05:09,304 Speaker 1: And you eventually come to meet this guy. 83 00:05:09,544 --> 00:05:12,944 Speaker 2: Well, the whisper network of nerds finally reached me, I 84 00:05:12,944 --> 00:05:16,344 Speaker 2: guess because we had a friend in common who said 85 00:05:16,344 --> 00:05:17,704 Speaker 2: to me a number of times you got to meet 86 00:05:17,744 --> 00:05:20,304 Speaker 2: my friend Costin. The guy knew him from high school. 87 00:05:20,464 --> 00:05:22,024 Speaker 1: And this is while you were at Harvard. 88 00:05:22,144 --> 00:05:24,824 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, this is in my junior year of 89 00:05:24,824 --> 00:05:27,744 Speaker 2: college at Harvard and Coston at that point was a 90 00:05:27,744 --> 00:05:28,704 Speaker 2: math major at MIT. 91 00:05:29,264 --> 00:05:30,784 Speaker 1: It's like an intellectual blind date. 92 00:05:31,064 --> 00:05:33,704 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So it's the two of us, and I 93 00:05:33,704 --> 00:05:35,424 Speaker 2: think we spent the next two hours or so just 94 00:05:35,464 --> 00:05:38,864 Speaker 2: walking around Cambridge, Massachusetts and talking about whatever came to mind, 95 00:05:38,944 --> 00:05:40,904 Speaker 2: which I think was basically his hobby. 96 00:05:41,504 --> 00:05:42,264 Speaker 1: Did you like him? 97 00:05:42,584 --> 00:05:44,984 Speaker 2: I did? I mean he was fun. He really knew 98 00:05:45,024 --> 00:05:47,984 Speaker 2: how to push people's buttons, say things that were outrageous, 99 00:05:48,304 --> 00:05:52,664 Speaker 2: say things that might offend someone. You hear a lot 100 00:05:52,704 --> 00:05:53,784 Speaker 2: of things that you don't hear every day. 101 00:05:53,944 --> 00:05:55,144 Speaker 1: What do you mean, what kind of things you don't 102 00:05:55,184 --> 00:05:55,744 Speaker 1: hear every day? 103 00:05:55,944 --> 00:05:58,904 Speaker 2: Well, like at the time, I was studying Persian. You 104 00:05:58,944 --> 00:06:02,184 Speaker 2: know Persian, I would say, the easiest language for an 105 00:06:02,184 --> 00:06:05,264 Speaker 2: English speaker to study that has quiggly letters, So it 106 00:06:05,344 --> 00:06:09,544 Speaker 2: is just unbelievably simple. And I described that to him, 107 00:06:09,904 --> 00:06:13,344 Speaker 2: and he said, is it like Spanish where every time 108 00:06:13,344 --> 00:06:16,064 Speaker 2: you speak a word you feel your brain shrinking? 109 00:06:16,544 --> 00:06:17,544 Speaker 1: What does that even mean? 110 00:06:17,944 --> 00:06:20,264 Speaker 2: I think what he was implying was that there are 111 00:06:20,304 --> 00:06:23,424 Speaker 2: certain languages that are so simple that you don't feel 112 00:06:23,464 --> 00:06:26,464 Speaker 2: that your brain is being nourished by speaking to them. 113 00:06:26,664 --> 00:06:29,344 Speaker 1: I'm on year four of Spanish due lingo, and I 114 00:06:29,384 --> 00:06:33,224 Speaker 1: still can't even come close to understanding it. Besides testing 115 00:06:33,264 --> 00:06:35,464 Speaker 1: you and being kind of intellectually fun. Did he seem 116 00:06:35,504 --> 00:06:36,344 Speaker 1: really smart? 117 00:06:36,544 --> 00:06:39,064 Speaker 2: He was clearly smart. He was clearly well read. The 118 00:06:39,144 --> 00:06:41,664 Speaker 2: things that he was interested in were not the things 119 00:06:41,704 --> 00:06:45,384 Speaker 2: that you learned by taking classes, certainly not MIT. We're 120 00:06:45,424 --> 00:06:51,584 Speaker 2: talking about nineteenth century social science, ancient Greek and other subjects. 121 00:06:51,704 --> 00:06:54,304 Speaker 2: He had a kind of old school interest that he 122 00:06:54,384 --> 00:06:57,664 Speaker 2: was nourishing on his own. And for me, as someone 123 00:06:57,664 --> 00:06:59,544 Speaker 2: who you know, I like to think had curiosities on 124 00:06:59,544 --> 00:07:01,624 Speaker 2: my own, I wanted more of this guy, and I 125 00:07:01,624 --> 00:07:03,024 Speaker 2: wanted to hear more of what he had to say. 126 00:07:03,224 --> 00:07:05,904 Speaker 1: And there's a picture of him backwardings in college in 127 00:07:05,944 --> 00:07:06,744 Speaker 1: the New York Times. 128 00:07:06,824 --> 00:07:09,984 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, that's right. He was ring a trench coat 129 00:07:10,224 --> 00:07:13,344 Speaker 2: with Teva sandals. He had a black bar over his 130 00:07:13,344 --> 00:07:16,184 Speaker 2: eyes so he couldn't be identified because he was being 131 00:07:16,304 --> 00:07:21,784 Speaker 2: used to illustrate how badly MIT undergraduates dress. So to 132 00:07:21,824 --> 00:07:26,624 Speaker 2: protect his safety and future employment prospects or something, they 133 00:07:26,624 --> 00:07:28,744 Speaker 2: were saying, we shouldn't identify this guy. 134 00:07:28,864 --> 00:07:31,184 Speaker 1: Little did they know that that wasn't gonna be the 135 00:07:31,184 --> 00:07:34,064 Speaker 1: thing that kept him from being employed. So did you 136 00:07:34,144 --> 00:07:35,664 Speaker 1: keep in touch after your blind eit? 137 00:07:36,224 --> 00:07:39,024 Speaker 2: I went traveling pretty soon after that. So we didn't 138 00:07:39,064 --> 00:07:42,064 Speaker 2: really hang out, I think ever again. Actually in person, 139 00:07:42,184 --> 00:07:45,544 Speaker 2: we did trade emails quite a bit, but that didn't 140 00:07:45,584 --> 00:07:46,304 Speaker 2: last for too long. 141 00:07:46,504 --> 00:07:47,664 Speaker 1: Wait why didn't it last? 142 00:07:47,824 --> 00:07:51,744 Speaker 2: Well? He would say increasingly offensive things that were offensive 143 00:07:51,744 --> 00:07:54,784 Speaker 2: at the time, but I knew that he was testing, 144 00:07:54,824 --> 00:07:57,624 Speaker 2: and so I didn't take the bait. And occasionally, though, 145 00:07:57,864 --> 00:08:01,584 Speaker 2: he would note that some of my friends had said 146 00:08:01,584 --> 00:08:04,424 Speaker 2: something that displeased him. I was friends with various journalists 147 00:08:04,464 --> 00:08:06,784 Speaker 2: and they'd write their political opinions and he says, stop 148 00:08:06,864 --> 00:08:08,904 Speaker 2: being such a and then he used a slur against 149 00:08:08,904 --> 00:08:12,144 Speaker 2: gay people. But eventually I thought, I'm not sure I 150 00:08:12,304 --> 00:08:16,144 Speaker 2: need this in my life anymore, and I stopped responding 151 00:08:16,144 --> 00:08:16,504 Speaker 2: to him. 152 00:08:16,664 --> 00:08:18,024 Speaker 1: What's the weirdest thing he sent you? 153 00:08:19,384 --> 00:08:21,504 Speaker 2: At one point he sent me a picture of himself 154 00:08:21,944 --> 00:08:25,224 Speaker 2: and he was shirtless. He had clearly been working out, 155 00:08:25,984 --> 00:08:29,304 Speaker 2: and he wrote, do you like this pick of me? 156 00:08:30,104 --> 00:08:32,304 Speaker 2: And I don't think I replied to that at all. 157 00:08:32,904 --> 00:08:35,544 Speaker 2: And I think the purpose of sending it was because 158 00:08:35,584 --> 00:08:39,784 Speaker 2: it would be befuddling. He loves to befuddle. He's good 159 00:08:39,784 --> 00:08:40,184 Speaker 2: at it. 160 00:08:40,224 --> 00:08:43,024 Speaker 1: Really, it sounds I am not at all fuddled. That 161 00:08:43,104 --> 00:08:44,384 Speaker 1: seems just like a thirst trap. 162 00:08:45,784 --> 00:08:49,504 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's objectively a thirst trap, but he may also 163 00:08:49,744 --> 00:08:54,064 Speaker 2: been trying to fuck with you, and the latter is 164 00:08:54,104 --> 00:08:56,424 Speaker 2: actually the same character with who he is. 165 00:08:57,224 --> 00:09:00,304 Speaker 1: Okay, so you lose touch with them. What happens to 166 00:09:00,384 --> 00:09:02,344 Speaker 1: him after he graduates from MITA. 167 00:09:02,944 --> 00:09:07,344 Speaker 2: After he went to MIT he became an investment banker briefly, 168 00:09:08,024 --> 00:09:10,264 Speaker 2: and eventually he ended up in a graduate program in 169 00:09:10,304 --> 00:09:12,624 Speaker 2: political science at Yale University. 170 00:09:13,064 --> 00:09:15,624 Speaker 1: Is that you teach at Yale? Is that the department 171 00:09:15,624 --> 00:09:16,064 Speaker 1: you teach in? 172 00:09:16,344 --> 00:09:19,344 Speaker 2: Yes, just by chance, we didn't overlap at all, but 173 00:09:19,664 --> 00:09:23,744 Speaker 2: in exactly the same department where I have been teaching 174 00:09:23,784 --> 00:09:26,784 Speaker 2: since twenty fourteen. He was a graduate student. 175 00:09:27,064 --> 00:09:29,104 Speaker 1: I feel like this is like fight club, and we're 176 00:09:29,144 --> 00:09:30,624 Speaker 1: going to find out at the end that he is here. 177 00:09:31,624 --> 00:09:34,184 Speaker 2: That would be the worst news that I've had in 178 00:09:34,264 --> 00:09:34,904 Speaker 2: quite some time. 179 00:09:37,864 --> 00:09:42,304 Speaker 1: Okay, So he gets his PhD from Yale, and while 180 00:09:42,304 --> 00:09:46,144 Speaker 1: he's there, he's still doing this kind of bj Novak 181 00:09:46,224 --> 00:09:49,704 Speaker 1: era prank character, like in emails and other places. Right. 182 00:09:50,424 --> 00:09:53,544 Speaker 2: Yeah. I spoke with people who were grad students during 183 00:09:53,584 --> 00:09:56,064 Speaker 2: his time there, and they said, oh, yeah, that guy. 184 00:09:56,104 --> 00:09:58,944 Speaker 2: He would constantly be pushing our buttons. You know. He 185 00:09:58,984 --> 00:10:02,824 Speaker 2: would write these notes to the graduate student email lists. 186 00:10:03,304 --> 00:10:06,864 Speaker 2: They would say, oh, you know, our graduate student insurance 187 00:10:06,904 --> 00:10:10,384 Speaker 2: doesn't cover dentistry. Can you help me with that? And 188 00:10:10,424 --> 00:10:13,304 Speaker 2: then he would write back my cousin Benko run Benko 189 00:10:13,464 --> 00:10:16,864 Speaker 2: Magneto Gore's dental emporium. He make good dental work in 190 00:10:16,904 --> 00:10:20,304 Speaker 2: white Panic Grand Avenue, East Street, in parking lot outside 191 00:10:20,344 --> 00:10:23,624 Speaker 2: plumbing supply store. You formed me small price of one 192 00:10:23,664 --> 00:10:26,824 Speaker 2: hundred dollars. You do work steel gold, did anything you want. 193 00:10:27,144 --> 00:10:29,504 Speaker 2: He was fucking with everybody all the time. 194 00:10:29,744 --> 00:10:32,624 Speaker 1: And what was his dissertation like for his phha pem. 195 00:10:33,224 --> 00:10:35,744 Speaker 2: It was pretty weird and it would be alarming if 196 00:10:35,744 --> 00:10:38,504 Speaker 2: it weren't in a dissertation, which means that nobody reads it. 197 00:10:39,224 --> 00:10:42,424 Speaker 2: When I say alarming, I mean it was about eugenics 198 00:10:42,784 --> 00:10:47,064 Speaker 2: and tried to suggest that philosophy in Plato's mind was 199 00:10:47,224 --> 00:10:53,064 Speaker 2: closely associated with eugenics, with biologically creating an elite. 200 00:10:53,824 --> 00:10:57,184 Speaker 1: Wait wait that like Plato wanted to build a master 201 00:10:57,264 --> 00:10:58,064 Speaker 1: race like Hitler did. 202 00:10:58,104 --> 00:10:59,984 Speaker 2: That's exactly right, that's what That's what he claimed. 203 00:11:00,064 --> 00:11:02,144 Speaker 1: That does not come up in the republic. For my memory, 204 00:11:02,464 --> 00:11:06,144 Speaker 1: I would think at like a very liberal place like yeah, 205 00:11:06,384 --> 00:11:10,144 Speaker 1: that your dissertation supervisor is not going to be into 206 00:11:10,144 --> 00:11:11,704 Speaker 1: that that's true. 207 00:11:11,744 --> 00:11:15,264 Speaker 2: I mean, toward the end, I spoke to his advisor, 208 00:11:16,184 --> 00:11:21,184 Speaker 2: Stephen Smith, who's a very distinguished political theorist, and who 209 00:11:21,304 --> 00:11:25,144 Speaker 2: told him straightforwardly that, look, this is shameful. The idea 210 00:11:25,184 --> 00:11:27,184 Speaker 2: that your parents would take you away from Romania and 211 00:11:27,464 --> 00:11:30,744 Speaker 2: escape tyranny and totalitarianism so that you can write that 212 00:11:30,784 --> 00:11:34,224 Speaker 2: eugenics is the way to go was disgusting. 213 00:11:34,304 --> 00:11:37,904 Speaker 1: Oh, his parents literally escape Cechescu. And then then he 214 00:11:38,024 --> 00:11:43,384 Speaker 1: writes this insane piece about authoritarianism as is dissertation that 215 00:11:43,464 --> 00:11:44,544 Speaker 1: can't make parents happy. 216 00:11:44,704 --> 00:11:49,664 Speaker 2: No, if, like Costin's parents, you have fled the most 217 00:11:49,704 --> 00:11:54,224 Speaker 2: tyrannical Eastern European country, and then what do you find 218 00:11:54,264 --> 00:11:57,144 Speaker 2: your kid doing going to one of the best schools 219 00:11:57,184 --> 00:11:59,504 Speaker 2: in the United States and then writing about how tyranny 220 00:11:59,544 --> 00:12:03,424 Speaker 2: is actually good and by the way, also having some 221 00:12:03,464 --> 00:12:06,984 Speaker 2: of your family exterminated in the Holocaust, and then writing that, yeah, 222 00:12:07,264 --> 00:12:11,624 Speaker 2: eugenics is also good. This was I think probably pretty 223 00:12:11,624 --> 00:12:13,464 Speaker 2: embarrassing to his parents. 224 00:12:13,384 --> 00:12:17,824 Speaker 1: Right because he's also Jewish. Okay, so they give him 225 00:12:18,224 --> 00:12:20,744 Speaker 1: the PhD. What does he do afterwards? 226 00:12:21,264 --> 00:12:22,904 Speaker 2: He did get one of the very few jobs on 227 00:12:22,944 --> 00:12:26,104 Speaker 2: the market, which was a postdoc at Emory. 228 00:12:26,424 --> 00:12:28,824 Speaker 1: That's a roll of the dice for Emory though after 229 00:12:28,904 --> 00:12:32,624 Speaker 1: the eugenics dissertation. So how long does he last at Emory? 230 00:12:33,344 --> 00:12:35,824 Speaker 2: Not very long at all, but for reasons that were 231 00:12:35,824 --> 00:12:39,544 Speaker 2: pretty weird. He started teaching some classes and then at 232 00:12:39,584 --> 00:12:44,504 Speaker 2: some point other members of the department heard from students that, oh, 233 00:12:44,544 --> 00:12:46,944 Speaker 2: that guy Costin is teaching us. He never shows up 234 00:12:46,984 --> 00:12:50,344 Speaker 2: for his classes, and he's announced that he's going to 235 00:12:50,384 --> 00:12:57,624 Speaker 2: be teaching by email instead. So his senior colleagues asked him, Hey, 236 00:12:57,784 --> 00:13:00,744 Speaker 2: what the hell's going on here? But apparently he had 237 00:13:00,744 --> 00:13:04,584 Speaker 2: some physical ailment that prevented him from regularly being in 238 00:13:04,584 --> 00:13:05,464 Speaker 2: the classroom. 239 00:13:05,784 --> 00:13:09,344 Speaker 1: Okay, so then he leaves Emory. Apparently he's said he's 240 00:13:09,384 --> 00:13:12,904 Speaker 1: living out of a van in Argentina. How does constant 241 00:13:13,064 --> 00:13:14,504 Speaker 1: enter your consciousness again? 242 00:13:15,104 --> 00:13:19,384 Speaker 2: He re entered my consciousness because he had started to 243 00:13:19,664 --> 00:13:23,944 Speaker 2: record a podcast. He had written a book. It's always 244 00:13:24,024 --> 00:13:26,344 Speaker 2: very alarming to discover that someone has a podcast. 245 00:13:26,904 --> 00:13:27,904 Speaker 1: We're not proud people. 246 00:13:28,424 --> 00:13:31,664 Speaker 2: So when I heard the podcast, it was the same 247 00:13:32,544 --> 00:13:37,144 Speaker 2: Museum of Fine Arts voice a little deeper, but he 248 00:13:37,304 --> 00:13:42,664 Speaker 2: was doing that stick and whatever slyness that he had 249 00:13:43,344 --> 00:13:46,424 Speaker 2: in direction about his views about fascism, and his dissertation 250 00:13:47,584 --> 00:13:53,344 Speaker 2: had disappeared completely and it was one hundred percent fascist monarchists, insane. 251 00:13:53,024 --> 00:13:58,544 Speaker 1: Racism, full on eugenics and into racial purity. Just he'd 252 00:13:58,544 --> 00:13:59,504 Speaker 1: gone full bor. 253 00:13:59,424 --> 00:14:02,304 Speaker 2: On this in the dissertation. You know, you have to 254 00:14:02,384 --> 00:14:06,064 Speaker 2: ask yourself only once you've understood the paragraph. Is he 255 00:14:06,184 --> 00:14:09,224 Speaker 2: saying what I think he's saying. The only thing that 256 00:14:09,264 --> 00:14:11,304 Speaker 2: you have to plow through in the case of his 257 00:14:11,424 --> 00:14:14,584 Speaker 2: podcast is can it be possible that I should take 258 00:14:14,624 --> 00:14:16,704 Speaker 2: any of this seriously given that he's speaking in this 259 00:14:16,824 --> 00:14:20,864 Speaker 2: outlandish accent. But the words themselves leave no doubt the 260 00:14:20,944 --> 00:14:25,144 Speaker 2: guy was an out and out fascist of a really 261 00:14:25,184 --> 00:14:31,144 Speaker 2: antique variety. Like we're talking about nineteenth century race science. 262 00:14:31,264 --> 00:14:34,184 Speaker 1: Like measuring people's heads to determine how smart they are 263 00:14:34,264 --> 00:14:35,544 Speaker 1: by their race, Right, I. 264 00:14:35,464 --> 00:14:38,024 Speaker 2: Think, well, that's the origin of this, But I think 265 00:14:38,024 --> 00:14:41,624 Speaker 2: he considers the head measuring portion of this subtled science. 266 00:14:42,104 --> 00:14:44,664 Speaker 1: Okay. And he's not using his real name. He's pseudonymous 267 00:14:44,704 --> 00:14:48,224 Speaker 1: because he's saying these really upsetting things. So what name 268 00:14:48,264 --> 00:14:49,024 Speaker 1: does he go under? 269 00:14:49,504 --> 00:14:52,664 Speaker 2: He was recording under the name the Bronze Age Pervert. 270 00:14:52,904 --> 00:14:55,264 Speaker 1: But why Bronze age and why pervert, Like, why isn't 271 00:14:55,304 --> 00:14:58,864 Speaker 1: he the Iron Age normal dude, Like, where does he 272 00:14:58,864 --> 00:15:00,144 Speaker 1: come up with this? Yeah? 273 00:15:00,224 --> 00:15:05,824 Speaker 2: So, Costin believes that Western civilization is a terrible error, 274 00:15:06,424 --> 00:15:09,584 Speaker 2: the belief that humans are all equal, they have equal worth, 275 00:15:10,064 --> 00:15:14,864 Speaker 2: that politics means compromise that individuals have by virtue of 276 00:15:14,904 --> 00:15:18,864 Speaker 2: being human beings rights. These are things that didn't exist 277 00:15:19,064 --> 00:15:24,144 Speaker 2: before this tradition made them up. And he believes that 278 00:15:24,184 --> 00:15:26,904 Speaker 2: in the Bronze Age there was an age of man 279 00:15:27,064 --> 00:15:33,344 Speaker 2: where people of great virtue, nobility, beauty were doing amazing things. 280 00:15:33,624 --> 00:15:37,144 Speaker 2: They were physically stronger, they were mentally stronger, and so 281 00:15:37,504 --> 00:15:40,304 Speaker 2: we need to go back to that age to create 282 00:15:40,384 --> 00:15:45,344 Speaker 2: that those conditions. Again, the pervert part, I have no idea. 283 00:15:44,824 --> 00:15:48,224 Speaker 1: And from the bits I've listened to and read, it 284 00:15:48,344 --> 00:15:53,704 Speaker 1: feels like some kind of bodybuilder who's also like Travis 285 00:15:53,744 --> 00:15:56,904 Speaker 1: Bickell from Taxi Driver, who wants to destroy all the 286 00:15:56,984 --> 00:15:59,824 Speaker 1: cities and wipe away the dirt all kind of by 287 00:15:59,904 --> 00:16:00,744 Speaker 1: way of Nietzsche. 288 00:16:00,944 --> 00:16:06,064 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. It's a guy who has combined 289 00:16:06,944 --> 00:16:10,984 Speaker 2: extreme narcissism when it comes to creation of a perfect body, 290 00:16:11,064 --> 00:16:14,304 Speaker 2: which is also part of his view of the Bronze Age. 291 00:16:14,704 --> 00:16:18,544 Speaker 2: He thinks that you need to cultivate your body lift 292 00:16:18,824 --> 00:16:23,064 Speaker 2: and read the philosophers who have discovered the wayward nature 293 00:16:23,384 --> 00:16:27,184 Speaker 2: of modern man and then turn that upside down. 294 00:16:27,664 --> 00:16:30,984 Speaker 1: The Bronze Age Pervert is popular, not just onlike the 295 00:16:31,104 --> 00:16:34,984 Speaker 1: dark parts of Twitter, but in Ivy League grad departments, 296 00:16:35,304 --> 00:16:36,984 Speaker 1: like how is that possible? 297 00:16:37,344 --> 00:16:40,824 Speaker 2: So those grad students, they've all read the Bronze Age Privert, 298 00:16:40,864 --> 00:16:43,424 Speaker 2: they all know what he stands for, but they notice 299 00:16:43,464 --> 00:16:47,144 Speaker 2: that their professors don't talk about him. They maybe even 300 00:16:47,224 --> 00:16:50,504 Speaker 2: effect not to know who he is, but they do. 301 00:16:51,064 --> 00:16:53,864 Speaker 2: And the reason for that is that, first of all, 302 00:16:53,904 --> 00:16:57,704 Speaker 2: he's funny, so people listen to him because he's amusing 303 00:16:57,824 --> 00:17:04,024 Speaker 2: to hear. But also he is attacking the very foundation 304 00:17:04,104 --> 00:17:07,304 Speaker 2: of Western civilization and he's talking about something completely different 305 00:17:07,664 --> 00:17:11,184 Speaker 2: where the strong are in charge and they crushed the week. 306 00:17:11,824 --> 00:17:15,984 Speaker 2: That's not something that anybody has been arguing for politically 307 00:17:16,584 --> 00:17:20,664 Speaker 2: in any American department for quite some time. So I 308 00:17:20,664 --> 00:17:25,384 Speaker 2: think that there was this forbiddenness about what he was saying. 309 00:17:25,944 --> 00:17:31,264 Speaker 2: And there is also the fact that he was arguing 310 00:17:31,824 --> 00:17:36,224 Speaker 2: a position that nobody remembered how to rebut it was 311 00:17:36,304 --> 00:17:38,744 Speaker 2: just it was so old that it was new again. 312 00:17:39,224 --> 00:17:42,184 Speaker 2: And that meant that people were defenseless against it, and 313 00:17:42,184 --> 00:17:43,824 Speaker 2: they were fascinated by what they were hearing. 314 00:17:44,104 --> 00:17:46,104 Speaker 1: And it's not just the podcast. He's self published as 315 00:17:46,104 --> 00:17:48,704 Speaker 1: a book. You said, in the summer of twenty eighteen, 316 00:17:48,944 --> 00:17:51,664 Speaker 1: it was among the top one hundred and fifty books 317 00:17:51,704 --> 00:17:54,224 Speaker 1: on Amazon. I don't know where your book was on 318 00:17:54,304 --> 00:17:57,984 Speaker 1: the list. The ranking of my two books didn't have 319 00:17:58,064 --> 00:17:59,664 Speaker 1: the same number of digits as that. 320 00:17:59,864 --> 00:18:03,744 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I have to say the same. I mean, somehow, 321 00:18:03,864 --> 00:18:07,424 Speaker 2: if you publish your own book and you write it 322 00:18:07,464 --> 00:18:10,344 Speaker 2: in the diction of Borat, and you write the worst 323 00:18:10,384 --> 00:18:13,864 Speaker 2: possible things that you could think, then people want to 324 00:18:13,904 --> 00:18:14,224 Speaker 2: read it. 325 00:18:15,744 --> 00:18:18,864 Speaker 1: After the break, we'll hear about the people in power 326 00:18:18,904 --> 00:18:21,904 Speaker 1: who follow the Bronze Age Pervert and how they're planning 327 00:18:21,904 --> 00:18:26,424 Speaker 1: a revolution. But first, our advertisers are going to make 328 00:18:26,424 --> 00:18:29,504 Speaker 1: you an amazing offer on a ring light for achieving 329 00:18:29,544 --> 00:18:34,464 Speaker 1: that perfect shirtless selfie for your totally straight fascist friends. 330 00:18:44,664 --> 00:18:47,824 Speaker 1: How popular is this book? And Bronze Age Pervert in 331 00:18:47,864 --> 00:18:52,864 Speaker 1: general just tweets his podcast with people who have actual 332 00:18:52,944 --> 00:18:54,424 Speaker 1: power in the Republican Party. 333 00:18:54,704 --> 00:18:57,984 Speaker 2: So the Bronze Age Pervert who goes by BAP, he 334 00:18:58,104 --> 00:19:02,024 Speaker 2: tells his followers don't tell people that you're a bat follower, 335 00:19:02,224 --> 00:19:06,824 Speaker 2: use your non accounts, which it seems like pretty obvious advice, 336 00:19:06,944 --> 00:19:10,024 Speaker 2: given that he's constantly using you know, the end word 337 00:19:10,464 --> 00:19:12,824 Speaker 2: and saying things that suggest that you want to destroy 338 00:19:12,864 --> 00:19:16,984 Speaker 2: the United States and you know, all of Western civilization. 339 00:19:17,304 --> 00:19:20,024 Speaker 2: Surprisingly enough that there are a few people who follow 340 00:19:20,104 --> 00:19:23,144 Speaker 2: him and say so openly and they know not to 341 00:19:23,744 --> 00:19:27,784 Speaker 2: tell people. But we're in high office. We're staffers for 342 00:19:28,184 --> 00:19:33,064 Speaker 2: members of the House of Representatives. And Bapp himself loves 343 00:19:33,144 --> 00:19:37,144 Speaker 2: to post on his Twitter feed images of his book 344 00:19:37,864 --> 00:19:40,984 Speaker 2: next to the uniforms of the people who love him, 345 00:19:41,184 --> 00:19:44,384 Speaker 2: which are you know, sometimes officers uniforms in the US Marines, 346 00:19:44,864 --> 00:19:47,144 Speaker 2: or official passports from diplomats. 347 00:19:47,424 --> 00:19:49,184 Speaker 1: I don't like that. That reminds me of what happened 348 00:19:49,184 --> 00:19:51,864 Speaker 1: in Germany, with all those people trying to attempt to 349 00:19:51,944 --> 00:19:55,064 Speaker 1: coup in various places in the military and the police 350 00:19:55,104 --> 00:19:58,144 Speaker 1: and government. That it gets scary at that point. 351 00:19:58,064 --> 00:20:00,504 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, once you get people who are working for 352 00:20:00,544 --> 00:20:03,944 Speaker 2: the government, we know that's not good. But the very 353 00:20:04,024 --> 00:20:07,424 Speaker 2: fact that this being underground means you can't quantify it. 354 00:20:07,944 --> 00:20:10,384 Speaker 1: And you talk to some of them. I know Michael Anton, 355 00:20:10,584 --> 00:20:13,984 Speaker 1: who worked for the Trump administration in the National security 356 00:20:15,064 --> 00:20:18,944 Speaker 1: he's written openly about liking the bronze age pervert. I think, 357 00:20:18,984 --> 00:20:23,384 Speaker 1: like has Steve Bannon and Peter Teel also done the same, 358 00:20:23,504 --> 00:20:24,744 Speaker 1: or have they've been quiet about it. 359 00:20:24,784 --> 00:20:27,584 Speaker 2: They've been more quiet about it. But there within the 360 00:20:27,704 --> 00:20:31,824 Speaker 2: orbit of bronze age pervert, we'll call them bronze age 361 00:20:31,824 --> 00:20:35,984 Speaker 2: pervert appreciators. I mean Michael Anton he reviewed for the 362 00:20:35,984 --> 00:20:39,744 Speaker 2: Claremont Review of Books, the Bronze Age Mindset. That's Bronze 363 00:20:39,744 --> 00:20:43,224 Speaker 2: age Pervert's book, and I would say he was respectful 364 00:20:43,264 --> 00:20:47,424 Speaker 2: toward it. He noted the things that are most odious 365 00:20:47,464 --> 00:20:52,264 Speaker 2: about it. He noted the racism, the misogyny. But he said, look, 366 00:20:52,304 --> 00:20:57,224 Speaker 2: this guy's got something going. And he diagnosed the state 367 00:20:57,264 --> 00:21:03,144 Speaker 2: of conservatism just by saying it's bab versus Reaganism, and 368 00:21:03,184 --> 00:21:05,664 Speaker 2: bat is winning. This is the future of conservatism. 369 00:21:05,944 --> 00:21:09,344 Speaker 1: I think he ran like a bank of some kind, right, 370 00:21:09,464 --> 00:21:12,784 Speaker 1: Like he's a powerful member of society. 371 00:21:13,064 --> 00:21:17,024 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, he was a Deputy National Security Advisor 372 00:21:17,224 --> 00:21:19,744 Speaker 2: during the Trump administration, So yeah, this is a person 373 00:21:19,784 --> 00:21:25,304 Speaker 2: who has had very very important roles in keeping the 374 00:21:25,344 --> 00:21:30,024 Speaker 2: international order alive and keeping Americans safe. And he had 375 00:21:30,104 --> 00:21:32,024 Speaker 2: kind words for the Bronze Age Privert. 376 00:21:31,864 --> 00:21:34,584 Speaker 1: And you talk to this guy, Vish Burah, who is 377 00:21:34,624 --> 00:21:36,304 Speaker 1: a fan of BAP, who's hey. 378 00:21:36,624 --> 00:21:39,024 Speaker 2: Vish Burah is a colorful figure who works for an 379 00:21:39,024 --> 00:21:42,264 Speaker 2: even more colorful figure who is representative George Santos of 380 00:21:42,304 --> 00:21:46,064 Speaker 2: New York. I was interviewing Vish about something else, and 381 00:21:46,104 --> 00:21:49,024 Speaker 2: I noticed that there was a copy of the Bronze 382 00:21:49,064 --> 00:21:50,344 Speaker 2: Age Perverts book behind him. 383 00:21:50,344 --> 00:21:52,904 Speaker 1: So I asked him why you just saw it in 384 00:21:52,984 --> 00:21:53,464 Speaker 1: the wild. 385 00:21:53,704 --> 00:21:57,784 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. So I asked him why what's this for? 386 00:21:58,504 --> 00:22:05,264 Speaker 2: And he said, basically that the Bronze Age Pervert is funny, 387 00:22:05,864 --> 00:22:11,584 Speaker 2: he's a brilliant mind, and that there is quietly a 388 00:22:11,664 --> 00:22:15,504 Speaker 2: crew of people who think that he's their guide. There's 389 00:22:15,584 --> 00:22:18,024 Speaker 2: all these guys out there, men and women by the way, 390 00:22:18,224 --> 00:22:21,784 Speaker 2: who are followers of the Bronze Age Pervert, and we 391 00:22:21,904 --> 00:22:24,264 Speaker 2: have figured out ways to find each other, to meet 392 00:22:24,264 --> 00:22:27,664 Speaker 2: it at parties, and to recognize each other's each other 393 00:22:27,704 --> 00:22:30,264 Speaker 2: as like minded fans of the Bronze Age Pervert. We're 394 00:22:30,304 --> 00:22:32,784 Speaker 2: out there, and we're not going to announce ourselves until 395 00:22:32,784 --> 00:22:35,864 Speaker 2: we're actually at the controls. We're not there yet. 396 00:22:36,184 --> 00:22:38,784 Speaker 1: That's what he wants them to do him all these 397 00:22:38,864 --> 00:22:42,224 Speaker 1: darken lightmanc guys. There's this guy menshus Moldbug who's also 398 00:22:42,304 --> 00:22:46,304 Speaker 1: Jewish and also really smart, and they're part of this 399 00:22:46,384 --> 00:22:49,984 Speaker 1: group that wants everyone to keep quiet about the fact 400 00:22:50,024 --> 00:22:52,944 Speaker 1: that they think these things and follow these people until 401 00:22:53,264 --> 00:22:54,784 Speaker 1: the revolution's about to happen. 402 00:22:55,744 --> 00:22:58,384 Speaker 2: Yeah, they've seen what happens when you announce that you 403 00:22:59,784 --> 00:23:02,944 Speaker 2: hate black people. You lose your job really quickly, and 404 00:23:02,984 --> 00:23:05,864 Speaker 2: so they say, just shut up about it for a 405 00:23:05,904 --> 00:23:08,104 Speaker 2: little while and then you'll get into a position of 406 00:23:08,224 --> 00:23:11,584 Speaker 2: authority and then you'll do what you need to do. 407 00:23:12,144 --> 00:23:14,744 Speaker 1: And this is the strategy like that you see with 408 00:23:14,824 --> 00:23:16,904 Speaker 1: all those type of the frogs on Twitter, which is 409 00:23:16,944 --> 00:23:18,984 Speaker 1: you don't give out your real name, you don't give 410 00:23:18,984 --> 00:23:22,384 Speaker 1: out your real face. And in fact, he's really hostile 411 00:23:22,384 --> 00:23:24,544 Speaker 1: to people use their name or their face. 412 00:23:25,024 --> 00:23:26,904 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the idea is that if you show 413 00:23:26,944 --> 00:23:29,784 Speaker 2: your face and name, then you're doing that for your 414 00:23:29,784 --> 00:23:32,904 Speaker 2: own glory, and what you should be doing is quietly 415 00:23:33,264 --> 00:23:37,704 Speaker 2: making some friends and then infiltrating high office. If you 416 00:23:37,704 --> 00:23:40,624 Speaker 2: can do that, then you'll actually be working for the 417 00:23:41,104 --> 00:23:44,424 Speaker 2: nobler aim of subverting Western civilization. 418 00:23:44,984 --> 00:23:47,784 Speaker 1: Have you listened to his podcast? Is it better than 419 00:23:47,784 --> 00:23:48,984 Speaker 1: this one. 420 00:23:50,024 --> 00:23:52,664 Speaker 2: I do listen to his podcast. I will tell you. 421 00:23:52,704 --> 00:23:55,504 Speaker 2: I wouldn't tell just anyone that I listened to his podcast, 422 00:23:55,544 --> 00:23:59,384 Speaker 2: but he remains really entertaining. I think that a lot 423 00:23:59,424 --> 00:24:01,744 Speaker 2: of people who are just horrified but by what he says, 424 00:24:02,784 --> 00:24:05,624 Speaker 2: would like him also not to be funny. It would 425 00:24:05,624 --> 00:24:08,704 Speaker 2: be much a much simpler world if you were not 426 00:24:08,744 --> 00:24:10,104 Speaker 2: funny and smart. 427 00:24:10,224 --> 00:24:12,224 Speaker 1: I listened to a bunch of it. 428 00:24:11,944 --> 00:24:14,704 Speaker 2: It's amazing. If you listen to him, you will learn 429 00:24:14,744 --> 00:24:15,944 Speaker 2: things about the world. 430 00:24:16,024 --> 00:24:18,504 Speaker 1: So, okay, we were going to play a clip of 431 00:24:18,584 --> 00:24:21,784 Speaker 1: the podcast if you Will, If you Will indulge US 432 00:24:22,944 --> 00:24:25,304 Speaker 1: American's food revolutions. 433 00:24:25,424 --> 00:24:28,464 Speaker 2: There is interesting article from City Journal two thousand and 434 00:24:28,544 --> 00:24:33,344 Speaker 2: nine enjoyable read on how American food culture accelerating. 435 00:24:33,784 --> 00:24:36,064 Speaker 1: That's something I'm inherently interested in. Actually, that wasn't the 436 00:24:36,144 --> 00:24:38,504 Speaker 1: kind of stuff I usually hear from him, But I'm 437 00:24:38,544 --> 00:24:40,584 Speaker 1: interested in hearing about like turtle soup or whatever he's 438 00:24:40,584 --> 00:24:41,344 Speaker 1: about to talk about. 439 00:24:41,664 --> 00:24:44,424 Speaker 2: He's digressive and he's interested in a lot of things. 440 00:24:44,424 --> 00:24:48,584 Speaker 2: What can I say? He doesn't immediately go toward the 441 00:24:49,384 --> 00:24:52,224 Speaker 2: politics that will make you cringe, and he knows what 442 00:24:52,224 --> 00:24:57,504 Speaker 2: he's doing, so he has thoughtful views on American cuisine. 443 00:24:58,104 --> 00:24:59,424 Speaker 2: I'll listen to that absolutely. 444 00:24:59,904 --> 00:25:02,024 Speaker 1: I heard him go off out of nowhere talking to 445 00:25:02,064 --> 00:25:05,344 Speaker 1: someone on like ancient Greek etymology, just as a digression, 446 00:25:05,424 --> 00:25:08,264 Speaker 1: and I was like, he knows a lot. 447 00:25:07,864 --> 00:25:12,784 Speaker 2: Yes, and he's someone who is disillusioned by your education. 448 00:25:13,384 --> 00:25:15,064 Speaker 2: You can listen to this guy and it's like a 449 00:25:15,064 --> 00:25:20,824 Speaker 2: combination of comedy and politics and just learning about the world. 450 00:25:21,144 --> 00:25:24,464 Speaker 2: And in between you'll get things like recipes for carrot 451 00:25:24,504 --> 00:25:28,184 Speaker 2: salad and all sorts of crazy stuff like that. Now, 452 00:25:29,144 --> 00:25:32,664 Speaker 2: it's actually very difficult to also overlook that it's filled 453 00:25:32,664 --> 00:25:35,344 Speaker 2: with odious racist orseshit. 454 00:25:35,864 --> 00:25:37,784 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had to stop listening at some point when 455 00:25:37,864 --> 00:25:41,304 Speaker 1: he got onto something that was it was so awful 456 00:25:41,424 --> 00:25:44,624 Speaker 1: and like fourth grade dead baby joke kind of like 457 00:25:44,784 --> 00:25:49,744 Speaker 1: dumb awful racism, so retrograde. And he also spends so 458 00:25:49,864 --> 00:25:54,664 Speaker 1: much time telling you how he's not gay. Yeah, I 459 00:25:54,704 --> 00:25:55,384 Speaker 1: got of nowhere. 460 00:25:55,504 --> 00:25:58,024 Speaker 2: I wonder why not, because I think that he's gay, 461 00:25:58,224 --> 00:26:03,224 Speaker 2: but I think that the curiosity about his sexuality, about 462 00:26:03,224 --> 00:26:08,024 Speaker 2: his physical body, it keeps people listening. And he will 463 00:26:08,024 --> 00:26:11,824 Speaker 2: constantly on social media, you know, on Thursdays he posts 464 00:26:12,464 --> 00:26:16,384 Speaker 2: pictures of semi naked mostly men. And you know another 465 00:26:16,424 --> 00:26:19,864 Speaker 2: person I knew in my youth, Richard Spencer. He's my 466 00:26:19,944 --> 00:26:23,824 Speaker 2: lab partner in middle school in Dallas, Texas and later 467 00:26:23,864 --> 00:26:24,824 Speaker 2: became the leader. 468 00:26:26,184 --> 00:26:31,384 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the most famous white supremacists, maybe after David 469 00:26:31,464 --> 00:26:36,544 Speaker 1: Duke in this country. Richard Spencer was your lab partner 470 00:26:36,584 --> 00:26:37,184 Speaker 1: in middle school. 471 00:26:37,504 --> 00:26:42,264 Speaker 2: That's correct. Richard Spencer in Dallas, Texas was randomly assigned 472 00:26:42,304 --> 00:26:46,024 Speaker 2: to be my lab partner at Saint Mark's School in Dallas, Texas. 473 00:26:46,584 --> 00:26:51,384 Speaker 1: Are you a magnet for like racist fascist eugenesis? How 474 00:26:51,384 --> 00:26:52,624 Speaker 1: does this happen to one person? 475 00:26:53,624 --> 00:26:56,264 Speaker 2: As I say, I was randomly assigned Richard Spencer. I 476 00:26:56,304 --> 00:26:57,704 Speaker 2: was not randomly assigned cost In. 477 00:26:57,744 --> 00:26:59,024 Speaker 1: This was a little random. 478 00:26:59,184 --> 00:27:02,504 Speaker 2: But this is starting to become a trend. So if 479 00:27:02,544 --> 00:27:05,824 Speaker 2: anyone can can help me with this problem, then please 480 00:27:05,864 --> 00:27:06,544 Speaker 2: get in touch. 481 00:27:06,984 --> 00:27:10,544 Speaker 1: In any lab partnership, there's someone who carries all the weight. 482 00:27:10,784 --> 00:27:12,104 Speaker 1: Was it you or Richard Spencer? 483 00:27:13,264 --> 00:27:15,944 Speaker 2: I was a better science student than Richard Spencer. 484 00:27:16,024 --> 00:27:17,784 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, making sure, I. 485 00:27:17,784 --> 00:27:19,624 Speaker 2: Don't want to toot my own horn here. 486 00:27:19,504 --> 00:27:22,984 Speaker 1: But yes, he's better at white supremacy. You were better 487 00:27:23,024 --> 00:27:24,264 Speaker 1: at science. This all makes sense. 488 00:27:24,664 --> 00:27:27,944 Speaker 2: But Richard Spencer, you know, he was plagued with gay 489 00:27:28,024 --> 00:27:31,584 Speaker 2: rumors for a long time when he was the leader 490 00:27:31,584 --> 00:27:34,864 Speaker 2: of the all Right and I wrote to him about 491 00:27:35,184 --> 00:27:38,464 Speaker 2: the Bronze Age pervert and asked him, so what do 492 00:27:38,464 --> 00:27:40,624 Speaker 2: you think about all this stuff? Do you think he's gay? 493 00:27:41,384 --> 00:27:44,464 Speaker 2: And Richard was a little testy with me. He said, 494 00:27:45,024 --> 00:27:48,864 Speaker 2: if I were posting every Thursday pictures of naked guy's asses, 495 00:27:49,224 --> 00:27:51,424 Speaker 2: do you think anyone would have any doubt that I'm gay? 496 00:27:52,624 --> 00:27:56,704 Speaker 2: But somehow the Bronze Age pervert gets a pass. But yeah, 497 00:27:57,104 --> 00:28:00,984 Speaker 2: he spends a lot of time thinking about male physiques 498 00:28:01,384 --> 00:28:04,504 Speaker 2: in a way that I think people find awfully suspicious. 499 00:28:04,744 --> 00:28:08,384 Speaker 2: And I think he also just knows that if he 500 00:28:08,424 --> 00:28:12,344 Speaker 2: does this, people stick around. There's the fascination that he 501 00:28:12,384 --> 00:28:18,584 Speaker 2: either has or pretends to have, is something that gets clothed, 502 00:28:18,664 --> 00:28:22,344 Speaker 2: asses in the seats, you know, And this is this 503 00:28:22,384 --> 00:28:23,424 Speaker 2: is what he wants. 504 00:28:23,064 --> 00:28:27,184 Speaker 1: Both more more people listening, maybe all kinds of asses, clothes, unclothed. 505 00:28:27,624 --> 00:28:30,384 Speaker 1: So do you think this guy's actually dangerous? 506 00:28:31,344 --> 00:28:33,224 Speaker 2: In the end, I don't think he's dangerous. I think 507 00:28:33,224 --> 00:28:34,904 Speaker 2: he's I think he's actually good. 508 00:28:36,104 --> 00:28:36,944 Speaker 1: What what do you mean? 509 00:28:37,064 --> 00:28:41,984 Speaker 2: Look, he is arguing for a politics that would be 510 00:28:42,024 --> 00:28:44,704 Speaker 2: the result results of it would be the deaths of millions, 511 00:28:44,824 --> 00:28:47,944 Speaker 2: hundreds of millions, maybe billions of people. That is bad. 512 00:28:48,104 --> 00:28:50,824 Speaker 2: That is bad if it is successful, I don't think 513 00:28:50,864 --> 00:28:54,744 Speaker 2: it will be successful. What it will do is remind 514 00:28:55,384 --> 00:28:59,784 Speaker 2: its opponents of the form that this argument once took. 515 00:29:00,744 --> 00:29:04,344 Speaker 2: The fact that there are seminar rooms filled with political 516 00:29:04,344 --> 00:29:08,344 Speaker 2: philosophers who don't remember the reasons why we have the 517 00:29:08,344 --> 00:29:11,304 Speaker 2: political system that we have, why we have the tolerance 518 00:29:11,304 --> 00:29:14,544 Speaker 2: that we have, is a problem. We want those people 519 00:29:14,584 --> 00:29:16,664 Speaker 2: to be in fighting form, and they can only be 520 00:29:16,704 --> 00:29:19,584 Speaker 2: in fighting form if you've got someone who is testing them. 521 00:29:19,944 --> 00:29:22,464 Speaker 1: I like the optimism, but I'm looking at votes in 522 00:29:22,504 --> 00:29:26,384 Speaker 1: all kinds of countries, including this one. It doesn't seem 523 00:29:26,664 --> 00:29:28,744 Speaker 1: like this thing is being combated. It seems like it's 524 00:29:28,784 --> 00:29:32,744 Speaker 1: gaining speed, this anti democratic totalitarian impulse. 525 00:29:33,144 --> 00:29:35,864 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's easy to find reasons for pessimism. 526 00:29:36,184 --> 00:29:39,664 Speaker 1: Like Google imaged costin. I get like one picture, but 527 00:29:39,744 --> 00:29:43,104 Speaker 1: you've seen them shirtless, so you know the big question 528 00:29:43,584 --> 00:29:45,864 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask smash or Pass. 529 00:29:48,224 --> 00:29:49,984 Speaker 2: I'm told by others who have seen him that he 530 00:29:50,024 --> 00:29:53,104 Speaker 2: was Spindley. When I saw him, it was kind of 531 00:29:53,184 --> 00:29:55,984 Speaker 2: ripped by the way smash or Pass did I answer 532 00:29:55,984 --> 00:29:58,064 Speaker 2: that correctly? I'm not sure if I know the nomenclature there. 533 00:29:58,104 --> 00:29:59,384 Speaker 2: Does that just mean is he hot or not? 534 00:29:59,904 --> 00:30:03,104 Speaker 1: Yes? Okay, but once you refer to as nomenclature, it's 535 00:30:03,544 --> 00:30:06,544 Speaker 1: we've passed the fun of it. Graham Wood, you wrote 536 00:30:06,944 --> 00:30:10,184 Speaker 1: how bronze Age pervert charm far Right for The Atlantic 537 00:30:10,184 --> 00:30:13,024 Speaker 1: and it's the story of the week. Thank you so 538 00:30:13,184 --> 00:30:15,024 Speaker 1: much for coming on and for writing the story. 539 00:30:15,144 --> 00:30:18,584 Speaker 2: Oh thanks for having me for my book. 540 00:30:18,624 --> 00:30:21,144 Speaker 1: In Defense of Elitism, Why I'm better than you and 541 00:30:21,184 --> 00:30:23,864 Speaker 1: You're better than someone who didn't buy this book. I 542 00:30:23,984 --> 00:30:27,224 Speaker 1: interviewed Tucker Carlson. During that interview, he said something to 543 00:30:27,264 --> 00:30:31,624 Speaker 1: me which was really shocking, which is impressive when you're 544 00:30:31,664 --> 00:30:35,704 Speaker 1: already psychologically prepared to interview Tucker Carlson. He said this, 545 00:30:36,624 --> 00:30:39,464 Speaker 1: there weren't any democracies between the fall of Rome and 546 00:30:39,504 --> 00:30:42,784 Speaker 1: the United States. Why is that it's possible that in 547 00:30:42,784 --> 00:30:45,704 Speaker 1: the country moving towards four hundred million people pretty fast, 548 00:30:46,064 --> 00:30:49,064 Speaker 1: it's hard to come to wise decisions in a democracy. 549 00:30:49,824 --> 00:30:53,064 Speaker 1: You don't practice democracy for its own sake. You practice 550 00:30:53,064 --> 00:30:55,944 Speaker 1: it because you think it works best. It's possible it 551 00:30:55,984 --> 00:31:00,864 Speaker 1: doesn't really work at this scale. Wow, you'd have to 552 00:31:00,904 --> 00:31:03,664 Speaker 1: be pretty arrogant to think that you'd be one of 553 00:31:03,664 --> 00:31:06,784 Speaker 1: the very few people who's ever thrived in a society 554 00:31:06,784 --> 00:31:10,744 Speaker 1: without democracy. But maybe that's what happens when you're the 555 00:31:10,824 --> 00:31:13,824 Speaker 1: first one voted off of Dancing with the Stars. 556 00:31:16,304 --> 00:31:19,544 Speaker 3: At the end of the show, what's next for Joel Stein? 557 00:31:19,704 --> 00:31:23,184 Speaker 3: Maybe you'll take a naper book around online. 558 00:31:23,864 --> 00:31:27,544 Speaker 1: Our show today was produced by Kate mccauliffe and Nishavenka. 559 00:31:28,384 --> 00:31:31,624 Speaker 1: It was edited by Lydia jen Kott. Our engineer is 560 00:31:31,864 --> 00:31:36,464 Speaker 1: Amanda ky Wang, and our executive producer is Catherine Shira 561 00:31:36,584 --> 00:31:39,344 Speaker 1: dah And. Our theme song was written and performed by 562 00:31:39,544 --> 00:31:42,544 Speaker 1: Jonathan Colton and a special thanks to my voice coach 563 00:31:42,784 --> 00:31:46,944 Speaker 1: Vicky Merrick and my consulting producer Laurence Alasnik. To find 564 00:31:46,944 --> 00:31:51,384 Speaker 1: more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 565 00:31:51,784 --> 00:31:54,864 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein 566 00:31:55,384 --> 00:31:59,304 Speaker 1: and this is the story of the week. The catchphrase 567 00:31:59,464 --> 00:32:03,944 Speaker 1: that he uses on Twitter is submit. What does that mean? Joel? 568 00:32:03,944 --> 00:32:05,464 Speaker 2: Did you mind if I not take that one? That's 569 00:32:05,504 --> 00:32:07,104 Speaker 2: going to be complicated to explain it. 570 00:32:07,184 --> 00:32:09,064 Speaker 1: I feel like my producers are clapping right now.