1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob must Ne's Podcast. 2 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: My guest today is the one and only John Sebastian. John, 3 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: good to have you on the podcast. Terrific to be 4 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: hit Robert. Okay, so for a minute there, your first 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 1: solo album with Rapriez was John b Sebastian. What was 6 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: that all about? Well, I didn't want people to be 7 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: confused between me and my actual classical virtuoso father. I 8 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: just knew there were occasions. These were more before I 9 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: was putting out a solo album where people would see 10 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: that name and think, oh, gee, Mr Sebastian is sort 11 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: of slumming now, isn't he? And and you know, so 12 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: that was really the stimulus. And what is the B 13 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: stand for Benson Benson? Yes, if your father was John 14 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: and you were John, what did they refer to you 15 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: growing up? As I would be John Benson, John Benson, yes, 16 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: or I'd be j b or Giovannino in Italy because 17 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: I have a kind of a checkered past. Uh. And 18 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: when I was in Italy, I'd be Giovannino. Okay, A 19 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,639 Speaker 1: couple of questions. There is the Benson Benson your mother's 20 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: maiden name, you know ben No, No, the her maiden 21 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: name is Bisher b I s h I R. And 22 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: I was only recently, uh explained to me before my 23 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: mom passed that she didn't know why my grandfather had 24 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: that middle name, except that there had been an Ohio 25 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: senator of that name that she thought maybe the folks 26 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: were nam me after. I really don't know. It's it's 27 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: a little mysterious. And you mentioned spending time in Italy. 28 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: What was going on there? Well, my dad had a 29 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: career that started in the United States. Uh, and as 30 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: time went on, he began to be able to travel, 31 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: uh and tour. He was a classical harmonica virtuoso. I 32 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: can only tell you that, Uh there's been nobody since 33 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: uh maybe Buon Fido a little bit, but this guy 34 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: really had a remarkable uh sphere of abilities, and people 35 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: like Villa Lobos were writing for him. Cherubin N wrote 36 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: for him. Uh. So this wasn't just a you know, 37 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: peg of my heart type harmonica player. So okay, but 38 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: I haven't gotten to it, have I. Uh So, what 39 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: what happen is that most summers, as time went on 40 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: and my dad started to get a reputation in Europe 41 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: that became a primary a primary source of income for him, 42 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: so that he would go to Europe most summers, and 43 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: his solution for not being an absent dad was he 44 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: would take the family and parked us in this beautiful 45 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: little red towered villa outside of Fez. I mean, if 46 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: you were gonna have an ideal place, it's ridiculous. I 47 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: should be ashamed of myself. At what a good age, 48 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: five to about eleven. And so every summer we would 49 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: go there after my schooling was done for the year. 50 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: That was the queue, and uh we would go and 51 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: sometimes Dad would go before us, but most of the 52 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: time we'd get on the boat and go to Geneva. 53 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: You would go by boat, not by plane. Correct. Wow, 54 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: I was a little kid. You know. Good experience, bad 55 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: experience on the boat, fantastic experience. All the Italian guys 56 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: love you. I mean, it's it was it was too 57 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: it was great fun. Uh yes, seven days. And you 58 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: know the larcenous quality of the Italians was so evident 59 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: because uh, I would go up to the first class 60 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: movie and try to get in and inevitably, the the 61 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: Italian guys that that we're working at would go okay, yeah, yeah, 62 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: they get in there, and and so I had really 63 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: full run of the boat. So one of the reasons 64 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: was that my dad spoke fluent Italian, uh the kind 65 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: that you really can't detect as an American. So uh 66 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: so he just really had carte blaunch on the boat 67 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: and really in Italy and in those remember it's in Italy. 68 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: Oh my god, everybody looks like Anita expert. Okay, you're 69 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: only you know, you're less than ten years old. But 70 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: it's as right. But it's also five years after the 71 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: Second World War? Correct? You know we saw movies they 72 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: were made there in black and white about the aftermath. 73 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: Did you experience that or you were just a kid 74 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: you didn't know. Okay, I was just a kid and 75 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: didn't know. But my friendships were all with people of 76 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: lower Uh how can I say this? They were It 77 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: was a lower class background that I was immersed in. 78 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: I was hanging out with farmers. I was hanging out 79 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: with the cooks and the cleaning ladies, because that's what 80 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:32,119 Speaker 1: children of that era did. So I did have this 81 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: this experience of understanding a certain sorrow that I that 82 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: I couldn't really uh, I couldn't define. But I was 83 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: aware that Paolo and Paula, the two the two farmers, 84 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: the farmer and his wife were experiencing hardships. Okay, did 85 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: you learn a tow in fluently fluently just by going 86 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: every summer? Oh? Yes, see, don't call me so no 87 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: Borgino Medicant's saying. I have some flatterers who tell me 88 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: that I'm fairly undetectable as a Florentine, but not everybody. Okay, 89 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: so you know, I need to say a lot of 90 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: years have gone by. How do you keep up your 91 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: Retalian or once you have you can't lose it? Well, 92 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: it does stay with you, but I do occasionally. I 93 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: mean I've been over there for these week and a 94 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: half visits, not nearly enough, but I would always feel 95 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: like I was struggling my way up a ladder with 96 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: missing rungs, and I was trying to get all the 97 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: way up the sentence, you know. And then did you 98 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: have the experience of going back years later after you 99 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: had a certain amount of fame and success and interacting 100 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,239 Speaker 1: with the same people. Yes, I did manage to uh 101 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: go back to um adjoining. The little vila that we 102 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:20,679 Speaker 1: were living in is a hotel. The pension Benshista and uh, 103 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: it's been there forever and it's all ex pats and 104 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: it's it's just it's a little slice of the nineteen 105 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: forties that's just sort of still there. And uh, that 106 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: experience of of of being there was it was amazing. Okay, 107 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: where was your father born? My father was born in Philadelphia? Okay? 108 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: And how many how many generations is he removed from 109 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: the old country? His father was born in Italy? So yeah, 110 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: we were all Abrutzes, uh by background, and how does 111 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: it become Sebastian or that what it was? Okay, here's 112 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: how it goes. Uh. We we start my father Giovanni 113 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: bot now, so he's going to have Herford. He's Magna 114 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: cum laud. But they keep calling him Puggles. Now you know, 115 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: a guy can be patient about that for a while, 116 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: but after a while you start to go, is it 117 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: so far off that you couldn't pronounce this? So there 118 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: was a point and he tells the story. Uh, well, 119 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: actually I had made the inquiry at one point because 120 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: I saw, uh, you know, uh his name on a 121 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: billboard or something, and I said, Dad, you know, how 122 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: come our name is different than Grandpa? And he said, son, Here, 123 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: here's what it is. Polis is a name that Americans 124 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: have a lot of trouble with. And uh so that's 125 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 1: uh one strike. Then I'm a classical harmonica player. That's 126 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: two more strikes. So at that point I decided that 127 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: Polis could go. Because John Sebastian looks real good on 128 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: a on a marquee. You know what an amazing story. 129 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: Well how about your mother? Where what's her background? Oh? Man, 130 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: and this is the one that nobody gets to. I'm 131 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: very glad because my mom at sixteen, uh, became an 132 00:10:55,080 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: amazing writer for radio. It's it's really it's Tina Fey story. 133 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: It really is. It's the same story where this young 134 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: woman comes in and just kills it. She writes funny 135 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: and she makes up crazy stuff. Uh. You know, there's 136 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: an Amos and Andy show, so she does and just 137 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: an amy and it's about stupid white people. Uh, and 138 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: she does a show uh uh, father is an Idiot 139 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: was another thing that she did. So she's always punning 140 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: on existing radio material. But what happened was then she 141 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: got the job at at the big the big station, 142 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: the big town. She went to Cincinnata. So she works 143 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: there for a while at NBC, and NBC finds out 144 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: about her and they go, oh, you're going to New York. 145 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: So at the end of her sixteenth year she is 146 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 1: she comes home and goes, so, uh, they're gonna hire me, 147 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna go to New York. And her father, 148 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: my grandfather, says, that's wonderful, honey, And you know, I'm 149 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: coming right along with you because I'm gonna be your roommate. 150 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: And that's what he did. For the next couple of years. 151 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: Uh was sort of zip back and forth between Dayton, 152 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: uh and UH and and New York. And then eventually, uh, 153 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: the grandparents on my mother's side moved to Florida. So 154 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: that was another wonderful little visit that I could make 155 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: in the winter usually. Okay, so how did your parents meet. Well, 156 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: I'd say that they probably met um in in New 157 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: York society. Uh, in the life of professional artists. They 158 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: crossed paths. Um mom had a couple of dear friends 159 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: who met dad and said, oh, you have to meet 160 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: this guy, and uh, people like Vivian Vance who were 161 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: just like blood sisters, Jane and and she and people 162 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: like Oh, there were a few great sculptors and people 163 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: like Garth Williams who were sort of pals with them, 164 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: and somehow or another they all met through those channels. Okay, 165 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: you say your father was magna come loud. So he 166 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: was educated, man, He graduated magna cum laud from Haverford. 167 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: So then he goes then he gets a scholarship to 168 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: the in the Versadroma, and now, uh, what about twenty 169 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: he's living in Rome and he's living there with the cats. 170 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Casals and Picasso and and Garth 171 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: Williams and all these cool guys who I would later meet, 172 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: and you know, it was just such a wonderful, uh 173 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: a little mini society that I was dropped into. I mean, 174 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: if I hadn't done something constructive, it would have been 175 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: a real mess. Okay, So how does one become harmonica 176 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: player on that classical level? And where was he traded? 177 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: So it starts in Philadelphia. Um, he gets a job, Well, 178 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: he becomes the soul list for um, the composer of 179 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: every damn march we we use? And yes, okay, so 180 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: Dad was a uh a player in that harmonica orchestra, 181 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: and then he became the soloist. So by sixteen he 182 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: was the main soloist for that band. It was his 183 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: Philadelphia group, and they toured quite quite a lot and 184 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: and quite far in there. Well, you know, in the 185 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: rock era, most harmonica players herself taught. Did your father 186 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: have formal lessons? You know, I really don't know some 187 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: of this because Dad was the guy that was giving 188 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: people formal lessons. You know. We'd have Johnny Palo over 189 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: at our house and you know, two or three harmonicats, 190 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: and they were all trying to learn, you know, tongue 191 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: blocking and and some of the advanced techniques that my 192 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: father really had under control. So how did your father 193 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: feel that you didn't graduate from college? You know, it 194 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: was a great disappointment to him and all the pouliasis. 195 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: I must say, yeah, I was fighting an uphill battle 196 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: for for respect because as dyslexic as I am, I 197 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: just could not pass an ancient history course and so 198 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: so really I was a poor student. Um. But luckily 199 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: my dad started to see it somewhere around eighteen. And 200 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: my brother, my little brother, always quotes him because he 201 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: loves the quote. Because people would say, you know, your 202 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: son has a number six record on the billboard, Sharks, 203 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: and Dad would look into the near distance and say, 204 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: I can't understand it. He always lands on his feet. Okay, 205 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: So how many kids in how many kids in the family? 206 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: Just to me and my brother Mark, he's seven years 207 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: my junior. Okay, you grow up in Greenwich Village, Yes, sir, 208 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: you were literally there and it started and long before 209 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: it became penetrated to the rest of society, late fifties 210 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: and early sixties. What was it like being a city 211 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: kid in the village. It was so great. I mean, 212 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: part of it was that this was the this wonderful 213 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: neighborhood where there's like multi culty couples and every LGBT 214 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: undeclared person at that point. Uh. They also all my 215 00:17:54,880 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: dad's friends and and and so we were experiencing you know. Uh, 216 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: Burl Lives is over at the house one one evening, 217 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: and he's the one who gets Dad talked into the 218 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: idea of you gotta let this songwriter guy from Oklahoma, 219 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: you gotta let him stay with you for a couple 220 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 1: of weeks. He's kind of out of sorts, and it 221 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 1: turns out to be Woody Guthrie. Uh. You know, this 222 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: was going on. This was going on pretty regularly. I 223 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: remember and I do remember distinctly lying in my bed 224 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: and remember it's practically a crib. I may have been 225 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: four or five. And uh and uh, there's this guy 226 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: in the other room. He's have ye seen that virgility? Man? 227 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: And I'm listening and I'm going not not as good 228 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: as Dad. That was my conclusion. Okay, you know a 229 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: lot of kids grow up in the fifties and sixties. 230 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: They have sports center. But you're living in the city. 231 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: Are you playing any sports or you're entertaining yourself? What 232 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: is your passion growing up? Well, uh, you know, the 233 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: guitar started to be important by about thirteen or fourteen, 234 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: and then I spent five years where all summer I 235 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: would be at a really great comedy summer camp, and 236 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: then all winter I would be at conservative old Blair 237 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: Academy in Blairstown, New Jersey. So I was having this. 238 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it was a great contrast, but it was 239 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: very difficult because I had very little patience for you know, 240 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: I mean Blair Academy at the time. Their their main 241 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: concern was that I cut my hair because when I 242 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: came from Italy, I had an Italian haircut. That's called 243 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: a good haircut. But no, Yeah, I had to go 244 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: and know be a have butch haircuts and that kind 245 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: of stuff. You're growing up, Are you a member of 246 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: the group with a million friends or you're more of 247 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: a loner. What kind of kid are you? Yeah, I'm 248 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not the guy with a million friends. But 249 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: what did start to happen was that it was kind 250 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: of like a miniature fan base over the five years. 251 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: Remember I've got a lot of years at that place, 252 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: so they had time to like, see me bomb and 253 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: then actually do something good and then play with the 254 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: Fearsome Foursome. Wow, the do wop group. The Fearsome Foursome 255 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: needed a guitar player, and I became one, even though 256 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: I was a freshman. Okay, wait, let's go back a 257 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: few chapters. One, what greed? Do you go to New 258 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: Jersey to Blair Academy eighth grade? Eighth grade? So before 259 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: that you're living in the city, going to public school. 260 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: Coupley uh well no, uh friends seminary Okay, and what 261 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: do you have to say when your parents said you 262 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: got to go to boarding school? You know, it seemed 263 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: like a natural transition. My uncle had gone to Blair 264 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: Uh and I also was watching my parents marriage fall apart, 265 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: and I could see the logic of getting me out 266 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: of the house. So there was a sort of a yeah, 267 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: I could be good to do this. And the other 268 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: thing was, boy, it could really be good for my 269 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,719 Speaker 1: parents to be because I knew it wasn't gonna you know, 270 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: it was gonna take a dive. But but you know, 271 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: if they could do it with as little screaming as possible, 272 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: that would be great. So like that. Okay, So how 273 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: old were you when your parents got divorced? Uh? For 274 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: did my fourteen? About fourteen? Okay? You usually that fox 275 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: people up? How how was it for you? Uh? You know, uh, 276 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: for one thing at a time when nobody was smart 277 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: about divorce, my parents were kind of smart about divorce. 278 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: Dad took an apartment up at sixty seven Street. I'm 279 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: living on Washington Square West. I can walk up to 280 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: see him if I have the impulse, and so I 281 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: must save it. I suffered less than than a lot 282 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: of folks. Okay, So how old are you when you 283 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: pick up the guitar? About about twelve or thirteen? Okay, 284 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: before you go to Blair Academy, or when you were 285 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: a Blair Academy slightly before. Okay. Now I'm of a 286 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: slightly younger generation where the Beatles were on TV, everybody 287 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: picked up the guitar, and there was the Folk movie 288 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: before that, so maybe we played with nylon string guitars. 289 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:18,239 Speaker 1: What inspired you to play the guitar? Um, That'll be 290 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: the Day by Buddy Holly. It's little things, you know. Rumble. 291 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: I heard rumble, and I went out of my mind. 292 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: I said, what are those chords? Uh? And in years, 293 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: in later years, when I got a chance to talk 294 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: to Pete Townsend about this, we found that we totally 295 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: agreed and it had the same exact experience where we 296 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: heard it one night in the evening on the channel 297 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: and just stayed on that channel until three or four 298 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: in the morning on the off chance that it might 299 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: play again. And it did. Okay, so you were definitely 300 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 1: a did you pick up? That's I don't want to 301 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: make an incomplete impression here, because the other thing, remember 302 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: these same five summers, I'm going to this summer camp 303 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: where Pete Seeger comes and visits, where all the cool 304 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: girls know every damn folk song in the world. Uh. 305 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: There's two sisters there and they both know how to 306 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: carter pick, so I'm learning folk music there. Uh. The 307 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: other thing is that the woman that ran the camp 308 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: quickly put me in a little sugar house and said, 309 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: your job is to teach the kids folk songs and 310 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: maybe make up little plays. And that's that's the thing 311 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: that I did for five summers, and Matt really honed 312 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: my uh whatever craft I have, uh more than almost 313 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: anything I think to be to try to hold eight 314 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: to fifteen year old's attention for forty five minutes. Okay, 315 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: ever take any guitar lessons? Uh? You know it was no. 316 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: I guess it's the answer because I um. I had 317 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: a friend who had a beautiful sister with a classical 318 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: guitar who I talked into borrowing for a week, And 319 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: I started off with an E minor chord and by 320 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: the end of the week I had invented d Okay, 321 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: needlet's just say, when we first see you on television, 322 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: you're playing an auto harp. So your father is a 323 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: musician music. Did your father teach you the harmonica the 324 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,479 Speaker 1: auto harp? Was he too deep into his own stuff? 325 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: What was going on in the house? You know? I 326 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: think fit part of my father's Ethos came from going 327 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: to school with a tremendous number of lawyers, guys studying law, 328 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: and he he explained it years later when he would 329 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: visit these guys and there'd be their son, and the 330 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: son is already in school to be a lawyer, and 331 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: doesn't seem that motivated, you know, And so he said, 332 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: I don't want to do that with music or the 333 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: harmonica or any of that. Uh. You know, you're you're 334 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: gonna fly your own your own ship. You know it's 335 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: it's gonna be uh, your your impulse. So although how 336 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: could I not listening to a man rehearsed for six 337 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: to eight hours a day, and that's a real number. Uh, 338 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 1: some of these buccarini can share those that go far 339 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: and by so fast you have to practice for years 340 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: to be able to do it. My dad started adapting 341 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 1: a technique with vassoline that horrified the owner company completely. 342 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: But you know this is this is what some of 343 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: these uh disciplines demanded. Okay, so your father never taught 344 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: you how to play harmonica, never gave you any tips. Correct. 345 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 1: However he did he did a better thing. He came 346 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: home with a sunny terry silver acetate and I put 347 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: that thing on, and I was mystified because I had 348 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: never heard the instrument that way, And it actually was 349 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: a good half a year of trying to figure out 350 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: and then I suddenly realized, oh my god, the time 351 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: that court is on the inhale. How could I have 352 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: missed this? So so then really from then on, a 353 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: part part of the my background at that point is 354 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 1: that I start meeting Sunny Terry fairly regularly in these 355 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: folk clubs, and I'd go in there, and by the 356 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: second time I went, I go, Sonny, Hey, go is 357 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: that Johnny's son? So it was very fast. Uh and 358 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: he and Sonny in many ways was sort of a 359 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:34,479 Speaker 1: conduit into what would become really a focus, which was 360 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: Sam Hopkins in years later. Okay, let's go back to 361 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: Blair Academy. You said there were five years there that 362 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: you were the musician. You're kind of playing in bands, 363 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: So tell me more about that. Well, Uh, there there 364 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: was a great incentive to play in those bands because 365 00:28:52,760 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: those bands would go to dances, and dances required women, 366 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: and there would be, you know, your loan opportunity to 367 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: actually hold a woman in your arms. And so uh, 368 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: me and one of my roommates caught onto this very fast, 369 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: and he was a piano player or sort of learning, 370 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: and I was, you know, playing straight aids on the guitar, 371 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: and so that really was really all about that, uh, 372 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: that that those band things would form. And then there 373 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: was this even dozen thing um and said there was 374 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: this uh fearsome forsomething and that was a a do 375 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: op group, fairly tame, but but you know, it was 376 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: the perfect moment because that's when all of those da 377 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: da da da da da da da da da da 378 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: da da da, all of those tunes were on the 379 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: air and we learned everyone. So did it work for you? 380 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: You were in the band, the girls were there? Oh yeah, 381 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: I got kicked out once because of that. Okay, what 382 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: happened there? Hey, I'm not going to tell you no no, 383 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: I you know, it was so innocent that it's really 384 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: it's a sorry tale because uh what happened was, uh, 385 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: I went to a dance. It was a younger classman's 386 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: dance and they had asked me to come and play, 387 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: and I did, and I pulled a very nice girl 388 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: who was very happy to go out and see what 389 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: the golf course really looked like. In the evening, and 390 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: so we did, and we were caught by a history teacher. 391 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: And you know what's really tragic is I was suspended 392 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: for two weeks and that girl was kicked out of 393 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: her school. Wow, that's talk about you know that difference, 394 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: Well that sexism. Okay, you graduate from high school, then 395 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: what I go to n YU for a year because 396 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: it's across the park. Okay, I had no other reason. 397 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: And and my dad, uh, he took me up there 398 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: at Washington Square North and we we we go up 399 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: and get to the door, and I said, well, this 400 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: is gonna be great. Dad, come on in and we'll 401 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: check in. And he goes, no, no, no. From this 402 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,719 Speaker 1: step you take by yourself because I can lead a 403 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: horse to water, but that's all I can do. So 404 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: I thought it was pretty real. And uh, I was 405 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: a bad student for a good three quarters of a year. Uh. 406 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: And then I think I came back the next year 407 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: for maybe a couple of weeks before I just see 408 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: at the same time, there's all this other stuff going on. 409 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: I'm in Greenwich Village, my god, six blocks away. John 410 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: Dangelico was making arch top guitars. Uh, and a much 411 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: more modest endeavor is uh Tom Fincy making classical guitars. 412 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: At the time, I wanted a classical guitar. I went 413 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: to this little shop on Broadway, and UH realized that 414 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: they're all up rutzes. So I quickly start speaking Italian 415 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: with my grandmother's accent, and in an hour or two, 416 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: I'm sweeping up. So that became the next thing that 417 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: I did, really was sweeping up at the shop and 418 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: standing down guitars and tuning. They found that I could 419 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: tune a lot of guitars and in a short amount 420 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: of time, and so it was. It was completely absorbing. 421 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: I was meeting some of the great guitarists of the era. 422 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: Um uh Raimo Palmierti, uh the guitarists who played for 423 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: Arthur Godfrey and was the number one call at the 424 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: NBC Orchestra, a remarkable guitarist, and his brother Paul Palmieri, 425 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: who was the If you ever wanted to say, this 426 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: is why I should be a musician, it was because 427 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: every week Paul Pomierti would show up with the beautiful 428 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: Japanese girl. Next week it's some kind of multiculty who 429 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: knows what girl and he just had He was say, uh, 430 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: what do they call that a sequential whatever? Uh? But 431 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: I just said, Wow, you can have this many girl 432 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:14,399 Speaker 1: friends if you can play guitar. Well. So, so I 433 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: was watching all of this and that really was the 434 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: end of UH of n y U. But I had 435 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: met a key person in David Grisman, who still tells 436 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: the story of seeing me in the n y U 437 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: elevator with this uh twelve harmonicas on a Holster arrangement 438 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: that I had had made at Tandy leather U because 439 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: I realized I needed more than two or three harmonicas. Uh. 440 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:55,720 Speaker 1: So there that that became a real, a real focus. Okay, 441 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 1: so we're like sixty two sixty three. The folks scene 442 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: is big. You talk about going to a club, you're 443 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: working in the guitar shop. Yeah, but what is going 444 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: on in the culture at that point. Were you're going 445 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 1: to clubs every night? We're going occasionally? Were you playing 446 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: with other musicians you'd played in groups in high school 447 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: where you're trying to for Max? What was happening? I 448 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: was beginning to haunt Bleaker and McDougal, And it happened 449 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: for two reasons. One was my own uh desires, but 450 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: also I had become a mini me for one Paul Rothschild. 451 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: Rothschild and I became very tight in the process of 452 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: making a Fred Neil album. Uh, and I suddenly was 453 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: getting work as a studio musician as a result of Rothschild. 454 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait a little bit slower. You meet Rothchild? 455 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: How ow and you get? And how does he realize 456 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,720 Speaker 1: your guitar player? And he says, come to my sessions? 457 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: You know a little bit. How does this happen? Okay? Um? 458 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: I was hanging around with David Grisman a little bit 459 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: and Uh. At one summer I came back from summer 460 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: camp and my mother is holding the phone as I 461 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: walk in the door. She says, it's Stephen. She says 462 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: it really bored because Stephen and I are haunting each 463 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: other's houses all the time trying to figure out these 464 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: various finger picking things. And Stephen gets on the phone 465 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: and says, so, uh, we're forming a jug band and 466 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: it's gonna rehearse on fourteenth Street and oh yeah, and 467 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: you're the harmonica player. And so I say, what is 468 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: a jug band? And Stephen says, just come to four 469 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: Street and and uh, we're gonna We're gonna rehearse and 470 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,399 Speaker 1: will show you. So I go to that rehearsal and 471 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: one of the people that's there is Paul Rothschild, who 472 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: I don't know, but Rothschild and I begin a kind 473 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,359 Speaker 1: of we're jabbing at each other in a very New 474 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: York way. You know what this is, of course, and 475 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: and so, but it's very friendly, and the conversation turns 476 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: to marijuana, and it is quickly clear that both of 477 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:40,240 Speaker 1: us are fans and uh, and Paul is now trying 478 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: to make this group of kind of random blues kids 479 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: into a jug band, his logic being this Jim question 480 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: jug band thing is taking off and and there's room 481 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 1: for a New York jug band and and why don't 482 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: you guys do it? And uh, all of a sudden, 483 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,720 Speaker 1: we're working Carnegie Hall. This was what parenthetically, I would say. 484 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,399 Speaker 1: I go up to sixty seven Street to visit dad. Oh, yeah, 485 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: what you're doing us? And blah blah blah, Yeah, trying 486 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: to work and so and said, what we do have 487 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: a couple of gigs? Really really, where are you working? Well, 488 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: we've got a gig at Town Hall and then we 489 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: play Carnegie. This was another time when my dad was 490 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: I think the reaction was, I don't know how he 491 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: doesn't he always lands on his feet. Okay, but whatever, 492 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: you know, we know you get to Carnegie Hall by practicing, 493 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: but we also know there's more than luck involved. So 494 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,879 Speaker 1: Rothchild puts together the band. How does it all come 495 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: together that you end up playing Carnegie Hall? Well, because 496 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 1: we had begun to play together in earnest and we 497 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: had a couple of wonderful people in the band. We 498 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: had David grismand we had Maria Muldor, we had Stephen Grossman. 499 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: You know, these are folks who in this little world 500 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: of of fingerpicking and guitar and acoustic playing in general. Uh, 501 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: it was it was our it was becoming our our 502 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: home base. Okay. Rothchild was a record producer, so there 503 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 1: were the recordings of this act. So yes, So what 504 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:43,280 Speaker 1: happened was Rothschild uh puts us into the studio and 505 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: we record uh an even dozen jug band album, uh, 506 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 1: which was nicely received. You know, remember the scale for 507 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:59,399 Speaker 1: success is so small. If you sell more records than 508 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:05,359 Speaker 1: Billy Fair, you're you're really rocking. So uh. So that 509 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: was the process of making the record, I think is 510 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: what tightened us up to where we could play some 511 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 1: actual venues, and for a short time we were managed 512 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: by Israel young. Is The Young's Folklore Center was the 513 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: Greenwich Village home of of this dawning folk music obsession. 514 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: How does it work economically in making any money at 515 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: the guitar store? Are you still living at home? How 516 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: does it add up? Okay? Uh, A recording session is 517 00:40:55,640 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: fifty one dollars. I can get at an apartment for 518 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: less than that at that moment in time, because I 519 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: speak Italian, and remember I'm living two blocks from the 520 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: center of Little Italy, and I quickly realized that so 521 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:26,959 Speaker 1: many uh Italian widows are in control of these apartments there. 522 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,439 Speaker 1: You know, Pops has passed and the it's her thing. 523 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: And I would go to these various addresses and I 524 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: would listen as the woman spoke first, and if I 525 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: could catch the accent, I would imitate that accent. Because 526 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: I had spent a winter in Rome, so I knew 527 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: how to turn it into a little more guttural Italian. 528 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: I knew how to do brutz from my grandparents, so 529 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: you at the idea I was being. I was able 530 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: to get apartments for very cheap because I would do 531 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: whatever the lady wanted me to do, and she could 532 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: explain stuff to me that she couldn't explain in English. 533 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 1: So uh, these things were tremendous advantages. Uh. And so 534 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: the other thing is that the answer for the the 535 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,799 Speaker 1: the even dozen jug band was no, no money at all. 536 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: My The entire thing really was uh these uh recording sessions. 537 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: And that was what was keeping me able to be 538 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: a little bit independent from my parents. I remember independent 539 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: like your twelve blocks away, Wow, stop by to do 540 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: your laundry, get a meal? Oh exactly exactly. So what 541 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,359 Speaker 1: happens after Carnegie Hall? What's your next move? Well? Uh, 542 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: I had been doing these various sessions, and uh, I 543 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:19,879 Speaker 1: start to wow, this is hard to encapsulate. All Right, 544 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: my father got a television show, Sunday afternoon television show. 545 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 1: It's sort of before there was really uh public television, 546 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 1: but it's very much that flavor. And there was a 547 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: show called Robert Harridge Presents, and uh this show. UH 548 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: engaged my dad to play on this show. And I 549 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 1: get there and the people doing the show is an 550 00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: Englishman reciting Shakespeare. There's Lightning Hopkins, there's my father, and 551 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: there's a girl that I have met before. She's barefoot, 552 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: she's about seventeen, and when she opens her mouth, you 553 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: cannot believe what's coming out. And of course it's Joan Bias. Well. 554 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 1: I watched this entire afternoon unfold, and to me, the 555 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: thing that was most impressive. I mean, Joan is of 556 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 1: herself just really impressive because she really has control of 557 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: her guitar now and and and plus this remarkable voice. 558 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, wow, this is really one of the 559 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,920 Speaker 1: coolest women I've ever run into. And then Lightning Sam 560 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: gets on and he starts tapping his foot and all 561 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 1: of a sudden, he's singing something about did you keep 562 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:10,399 Speaker 1: on but be that that they ain't bound? And she 563 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:16,399 Speaker 1: starts laughing, and I go, wow, you can make this 564 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: woman laugh because she's so serious, and you know, it's 565 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 1: a big surprise, and and so, uh, I was so 566 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 1: impressed with Lightning and Sam. So the television show ends 567 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: and I'm standing there and Dad is talking to Lightning Sam. 568 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: Sam likes Dad because you know, it's like, yeah, this 569 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 1: guy does something weird and unconventional and he's kind of 570 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: on my side. And so they're they're talking, and uh, 571 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: while they're talking, I walk up to Lightning's guitar case, 572 00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: and I think to myself, as a fifty percent I 573 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 1: won't get hit. So I reached down and I pick 574 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: up the case. Enlightening turns to me and I say, 575 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: Mr Hopkins, I know the subway system, and I can 576 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 1: get us downtown to within a block of the club 577 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: that you're gonna play. Uh and uh uh you know 578 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: we we and if you need a spot, uh, we 579 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:32,400 Speaker 1: live four blocks from there. So Sam as I suddenly 580 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 1: become like a lead boy for somebody that isn't blind 581 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:43,400 Speaker 1: because Sam of course understands the value of having a 582 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: little white kid too I don't know, uh talk to 583 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,799 Speaker 1: the club owner or whatever, and and so he likes that. 584 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,800 Speaker 1: So I become a regular. I'm carrying his guitar most 585 00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: of the time. And then me and a layer roommate 586 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:06,320 Speaker 1: get a little apartment over on the extremely side, which 587 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: we pretty much turned over to Lightning Sam because there's 588 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: only one bedroom, and we go, I ain't going that 589 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: bedroom now, SAP's here. We're gonna sleep on the couches. 590 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,400 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what we did. And we get up 591 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,960 Speaker 1: in the morning and get sam Is two eggs and 592 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: a jelly glass full of gin and be ready for 593 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: the day. And that was a remarkable period. And Sam 594 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: would sing at night or he would just wrap. It 595 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 1: was essentially wrap that was happening, and it all rhymed 596 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,480 Speaker 1: and we would go, how does he do this? You know, 597 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: it was a real miracle to see it happen in 598 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,719 Speaker 1: front of you. But so I take Sam down to 599 00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 1: the club pretty pretty frequently. One day, when I ache lightning, 600 00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,880 Speaker 1: Sam down to do his gig. There's an opening act 601 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: uh called Valentine Pringle, and Valentine is a protege of 602 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:20,839 Speaker 1: Harry bellefantas and he is trying to get with this 603 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,839 Speaker 1: uh kind of a folk program because he's a guy 604 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: from Washington. He's an enormous baritone singer. I mean, he's 605 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,000 Speaker 1: his voice is marvelous. But you know, I think his 606 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:42,480 Speaker 1: main experience had been uh in, uh in, uh in 607 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: in musicals and plays and things. So uh, Harry Belafani 608 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: starts coaching him, and so all of a sudden he 609 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: knows a whole bunch of chain Gang songs and he's 610 00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:00,640 Speaker 1: got a whole act. And uh, I watched this act, 611 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,759 Speaker 1: and I start to watch it pretty regularly because I'm 612 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 1: bringing Sam in. So then on this particular evening he 613 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,399 Speaker 1: gets up there and he's got a different accompanist. Now 614 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: I happen to know that this guy, his name is 615 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:26,800 Speaker 1: John Pankin. He uh sometimes masquerades as one Sastre or 616 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: one somebody and pretends to be a Flamenco guitarist, which 617 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: I don't care about that. But when he plays with Valentine, 618 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:45,839 Speaker 1: he makes a few crucial mistakes, and the big one 619 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: being he starts the battle him of the Republic, which 620 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 1: is Valentine's killer you are not going to be able 621 00:49:55,040 --> 00:50:00,279 Speaker 1: to survive, and he starts it in the wrong key. Yeah. 622 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,920 Speaker 1: And then there was another thing where he started a 623 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:11,520 Speaker 1: tempo completely wrong. So and and this is the only time, Robert, 624 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:17,400 Speaker 1: that I've ever done anything like this. I went backstage, 625 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:23,400 Speaker 1: attend to lightening, say hi to Valentine and say, you know, 626 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 1: val if I was your guitarist, I wouldn't be starting 627 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:33,759 Speaker 1: Battality of the Republic in the wrong key. And if 628 00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: you you know, I just I did the list of 629 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:42,600 Speaker 1: the mistakes the guy had made. So Valentine is trying 630 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,520 Speaker 1: to assess this who is this kid, you know? And 631 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:52,120 Speaker 1: so he then actually moves over to the other dressing room. 632 00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: Enlightening is reading the paper and he says, Mr Hopkins, 633 00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:05,000 Speaker 1: I just interested in this, uh young man, uh guitar player. 634 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,040 Speaker 1: Do you know? Do you know how how he plays? 635 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 1: Lightning looks up from his newspaper and goes, well, he's bad, 636 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:22,279 Speaker 1: He's bad that. And he went back to the newspaper 637 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:31,560 Speaker 1: and and so Valle is left going is that bad good? 638 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:37,680 Speaker 1: He's trying to assess what he's hearing, and uh, well, 639 00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,880 Speaker 1: what did happen? Was within a day or two I 640 00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,640 Speaker 1: was his accompanist. Now this is a long way around, 641 00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:46,680 Speaker 1: but I'm glad we have a lot of time because 642 00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,960 Speaker 1: this is where my professional life really begins, because I 643 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,719 Speaker 1: get a gig with Valentine out of town, unbelievable. We 644 00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,360 Speaker 1: go to Washington, d C. And we play a place 645 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:05,760 Speaker 1: called The Shadows, and uh the Shadows. Uh. He goes 646 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,440 Speaker 1: out there and he's a pretty good opening act. And 647 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:15,560 Speaker 1: then oncome the Big Three. And the Big Three is 648 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:22,120 Speaker 1: cass Elliott, James not Jimmy Hendrix, and Tim Rose, the 649 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:28,920 Speaker 1: guy that wrote Hey Joe, Yeah, Hey Joe yeah. So 650 00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:34,560 Speaker 1: this group is, you know, a real conventional commercial folk 651 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 1: group and they're playing for pretty much Washington Upper Crust. Uh, 652 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:47,880 Speaker 1: this is a fancy club. It isn't really folky, you know. 653 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 1: And uh but as we finished the show, and uh 654 00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:02,759 Speaker 1: uh I think I was coming downstairs as Cass was 655 00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 1: coming up, and she's doing Valentine's act, all the slave songs, 656 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:17,399 Speaker 1: and it's it's so uh un pc that I just 657 00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,680 Speaker 1: I just was. I was laughing for the next twenty minutes. 658 00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,680 Speaker 1: Well that was all that Cass needed, and so she 659 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,640 Speaker 1: starts engaging me. We become friends. By the end of 660 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,600 Speaker 1: the week, she's saying, oh, man, you gotta meet my 661 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,080 Speaker 1: pal Denny, and you gotta meet Zally. Uh we gotta 662 00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:39,919 Speaker 1: hook you up. And so I go back to New 663 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:44,360 Speaker 1: York and I'm doing you know, I actually got a 664 00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,800 Speaker 1: gig in Toronto with Valentine. A couple of other things happened. 665 00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:52,600 Speaker 1: Then I get a call from Cass. She says, you know, uh, 666 00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,440 Speaker 1: this thing is working out. We've actually got uh you know, 667 00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:00,000 Speaker 1: like a nice hotel rooms for each one of us 668 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:07,120 Speaker 1: and everything, and uh, we're thinking about changing our thing. 669 00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 1: Well a little while later, and I really can't go 670 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,000 Speaker 1: into too much detail because we'll be here all night. 671 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:24,640 Speaker 1: But essentially a friendship that forms both in Washington and 672 00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:33,880 Speaker 1: at the Albert Hotel becomes uh a new focus for Cass. 673 00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: And then she invites me to come to Washington to 674 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 1: a company, this new group, the Mugwumps. Okay, and would 675 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,960 Speaker 1: you please bring a kilo of pot? I say, thank you, 676 00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:56,239 Speaker 1: I will, and so that's what I did, and uh 677 00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:01,440 Speaker 1: we had about two weeks of gigs at this same club, 678 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,840 Speaker 1: at the end of which I get called by the 679 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:10,479 Speaker 1: assistant manager who says, I'm afraid that you know are 680 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:15,120 Speaker 1: the manager? Uh doesn't want you to continue with the group. 681 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:19,320 Speaker 1: I said no, I certainly could understand. He says, because 682 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,040 Speaker 1: you know you're a You're a bad influence on your 683 00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:26,960 Speaker 1: nasi And I said, I know, I am. He says, like, 684 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,360 Speaker 1: every time you play something, Yanovski echoes it on across 685 00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,279 Speaker 1: the stage, and you know, we want to stick to 686 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:38,799 Speaker 1: these arrangements. Well, of course this was exactly what was 687 00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,759 Speaker 1: wrong with this group was that it had an arranger, 688 00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: and it had musicians to play with it, and it 689 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,919 Speaker 1: had people like Timmy Harden and Freddy Neil and even 690 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:57,800 Speaker 1: me writing songs that they were doing. So uh it 691 00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:02,000 Speaker 1: it was this Uh it was a dinosaur and it 692 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,439 Speaker 1: would eventually die when it tried to play a real 693 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,239 Speaker 1: rock and roll club. They came to New York, they 694 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 1: tried to play the Peppermint Lounge. People didn't even turn around. 695 00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, this is followed by Joey d 696 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:24,439 Speaker 1: on the Starliner Bad but you can imagine. So they 697 00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,680 Speaker 1: that was sort of the end of that group. But 698 00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:33,400 Speaker 1: as a direct result, me and Yonowsky start poling around 699 00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,080 Speaker 1: in New York City. Uh and we're all living at 700 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:41,560 Speaker 1: the Albert Hotel, and so is Cass and so is Denny, 701 00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,000 Speaker 1: and we're all trying to figure out what's gonna happen next. 702 00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,160 Speaker 1: I remember we were thinking, ge, now Cass is gonna 703 00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: she's gonna find, you know, a solo career, but we're 704 00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:57,399 Speaker 1: worried about Denny. You know, you would make more money 705 00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:03,319 Speaker 1: than me and zall put together. So uh so it 706 00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:13,200 Speaker 1: was a wonderful close bond that we all had. Uh. Eventually, 707 00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:20,160 Speaker 1: zol and I start to concentrate along with an important 708 00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:25,680 Speaker 1: and important person in this equation is Eric Jacobson, the 709 00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:33,160 Speaker 1: the producer for The Spoonful, who really had a very 710 00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:37,840 Speaker 1: clear vision of what the Spoonful could be. It was. 711 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:41,960 Speaker 1: It was quite remarkable. I mean, he really had an idea, 712 00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:49,240 Speaker 1: and my ideas ran similarly enough that that we were 713 00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:53,800 Speaker 1: suddenly making toy records. Uh. And that was what we 714 00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,920 Speaker 1: were calling them, because they're One would be a a 715 00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:03,040 Speaker 1: like a surf wreckord, then another would be uh, lady goodive, 716 00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,640 Speaker 1: I got a thirty eight Ford now powered by a 717 00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,960 Speaker 1: Chrysler that's stroked and board now and you know all 718 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:13,959 Speaker 1: these funny things that they weren't New York City Norwegian 719 00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:20,520 Speaker 1: American guy. You know, it was this wonderful, funny attempt 720 00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:26,680 Speaker 1: to get into pop music somehow. And uh, I think 721 00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:32,040 Speaker 1: Eric saw what I saw, which was me and Yanovsky. 722 00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:36,200 Speaker 1: We're starting to be joined at the hip because we have, 723 00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:41,600 Speaker 1: you know, enough ideas that are similar. And uh, after 724 00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:46,360 Speaker 1: a little bit, uh, we find out that guitarists that 725 00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,920 Speaker 1: worked in an adjacent band had a younger brother who 726 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:54,000 Speaker 1: was coming back from a motorcycle trip in Europe. And 727 00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:57,800 Speaker 1: I remember me and Yanovsky kind of looked at each other, going, yeah, 728 00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,360 Speaker 1: that would be good. Yeah, Uh, let's let's see what 729 00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:04,360 Speaker 1: this guy's like. Well, of course, Steve Boon shows up 730 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,080 Speaker 1: and he looks like Fritz Richmond, who was one of 731 00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,040 Speaker 1: our heroes the jug and washtub player for the question 732 00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,840 Speaker 1: jug band and Uh. But also he's a real bass player. 733 00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:22,560 Speaker 1: He isn't a folky guitar player attempting to get around 734 00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:26,560 Speaker 1: on a fender and so that really made a big difference. 735 00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:31,800 Speaker 1: And it wasn't very long before Uh we had Joe Butler, 736 00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:35,760 Speaker 1: who was also had worked with Steve before, so it 737 00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:41,920 Speaker 1: didn't require too much jostling to get this love and 738 00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:49,040 Speaker 1: spoonful thing going. Okay, how many bites you got the 739 00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:51,840 Speaker 1: four members together? You're making the Toy records. When do 740 00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:53,320 Speaker 1: you make a real record and how do you get 741 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:57,680 Speaker 1: a record deal? Etcetera. Well, we got turned down by 742 00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:03,120 Speaker 1: every record company in New York City and Robert, that's 743 01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:07,360 Speaker 1: a lot of companies, and we really did go to everybody. 744 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,120 Speaker 1: And it was only after we hooked up with these 745 01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:15,000 Speaker 1: guys that were essentially mainly concerned with ripping off our 746 01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,480 Speaker 1: publishing uh, and they said, oh, well we'll be a 747 01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:22,680 Speaker 1: record company. Yes it will be uh Stallion Records, that'll 748 01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:25,120 Speaker 1: be it. Well that lasted about a week and a 749 01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:31,280 Speaker 1: half and they connect up with the guys down the hallway. 750 01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,959 Speaker 1: You know, this is when the record business was like this, 751 01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:39,520 Speaker 1: and the guys down the Hallway are already rip and 752 01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:44,200 Speaker 1: uh Karma Sutra, and Karma Sutra is the only record 753 01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:49,840 Speaker 1: the only company that genuinely went nuts. Uh. You know, 754 01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:53,320 Speaker 1: most of these guys have like a Voice of God 755 01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:58,840 Speaker 1: speaker under their desk, so when they're demoing stuff, it's remarkable. 756 01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:05,520 Speaker 1: And remember when they started playing our records on this system, 757 01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:13,520 Speaker 1: I go, my god, we're giants. So so uh. Really 758 01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:18,920 Speaker 1: that became our record company, really to our our disservice, 759 01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:26,080 Speaker 1: because we had been offered uh Electra because you know, 760 01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:30,040 Speaker 1: as I said, I had been Paul Rothschild's mini me, 761 01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:33,440 Speaker 1: and part of what that involved was going up to 762 01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:40,160 Speaker 1: electrac Records almost every night. Uh. And as we began 763 01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,880 Speaker 1: to work together and he began to mix the first 764 01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:47,920 Speaker 1: Fred Neil and Vince Martin record, this was it was 765 01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:51,760 Speaker 1: just increasing the amount of time I was spending in 766 01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:57,920 Speaker 1: Electric records. But as it turned out, when Jack Coltsman 767 01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:02,040 Speaker 1: offered us, we said, no, now, these this is a 768 01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:05,560 Speaker 1: folk label. This is Ceo Bickel. I mean, come on, 769 01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:10,520 Speaker 1: we're we're trying to get into the dirty business. I mean, 770 01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,280 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if we even used the term 771 01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,920 Speaker 1: you know that like no no, we're not fake pop 772 01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:22,000 Speaker 1: were we want to be pop music, you know? So 773 01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:27,560 Speaker 1: that was okay. So let's let's stop here for a second. Yeah, 774 01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:31,680 Speaker 1: the songs and you wrote some big ones. Yeah, who 775 01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:36,160 Speaker 1: owned them? That? And then? And who owns them? Now? Okay? 776 01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:41,360 Speaker 1: Uh I still own them and BMG owns them and 777 01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:46,120 Speaker 1: they publish and I write and that that's okay. Let's 778 01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:48,720 Speaker 1: talk about the spring. You make this deal with Stallion 779 01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:55,200 Speaker 1: Records when you write these hits, who owns the publishing then? 780 01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:03,520 Speaker 1: At that point, Uh, it was a compliman in Reuben. Okay, 781 01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:09,840 Speaker 1: how did you ultimately get full ownership? I don't know what. 782 01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:12,280 Speaker 1: Was it part of a really the reversion a handful 783 01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:17,120 Speaker 1: of years ago, or did some transaction happen decades ago? So? Boy, 784 01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:21,720 Speaker 1: I I was running too fast to be paying any 785 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:28,520 Speaker 1: attention to the to the the mechanics of the business deals. 786 01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:34,400 Speaker 1: And I have suffered proportionately for that mistake. But yes, 787 01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:39,160 Speaker 1: I I really all of this stuff. We didn't and 788 01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:44,040 Speaker 1: and our manager has since said I didn't know what 789 01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:48,040 Speaker 1: I was doing. You know, he's so apologetic. Because this 790 01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,800 Speaker 1: Bob Cavallo, he becomes the president of Warner Brothers and 791 01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:55,400 Speaker 1: Walt Disney records and all of this stuff, and and 792 01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:59,400 Speaker 1: he I still talked to him frequently, and he his 793 01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,960 Speaker 1: first thing is always Johnny. How could I be so 794 01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:10,560 Speaker 1: stupid as to not understand what I didn't understand back then? Uh. 795 01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:17,560 Speaker 1: I'm very touched by his reaction. And in fact, I 796 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:23,520 Speaker 1: can't say that I was unhappy with any step of 797 01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:28,280 Speaker 1: that process, because what was happening was what we wanted. 798 01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:35,840 Speaker 1: We were becoming a rock and roll group that people knew. Okay, 799 01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:37,760 Speaker 1: some of these hits are in excess of most of 800 01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:40,320 Speaker 1: them are in excess of fifty years old. Have they 801 01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:45,880 Speaker 1: sustained you over the fifty years? Strangely enough? The uh, Well, 802 01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:50,000 Speaker 1: I'd have to say that the record that for the 803 01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,680 Speaker 1: Spoonful that was the most effective, of course, was somewhere 804 01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:57,560 Speaker 1: in the City, and that certainly did very good things 805 01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:02,520 Speaker 1: for me, my brother and Steve Boon, because all three 806 01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:08,000 Speaker 1: of us contributed to the composing of Summer in the City. 807 01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:12,840 Speaker 1: But the big one who could have predicted that a 808 01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:16,600 Speaker 1: little television theme that I got involved in when I 809 01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:20,880 Speaker 1: was wildly unpopular in the nine seventy six would be 810 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,240 Speaker 1: It's like, that's the one right now? And of course 811 01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:30,280 Speaker 1: unfortunately I know part of this to COVID. Uh, you 812 01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:34,000 Speaker 1: never know how things are gonna play out, Okay, just 813 01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:37,960 Speaker 1: to put a cap on it, the original songs, you 814 01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:42,640 Speaker 1: ended up owning a percent of Yeah, and then you 815 01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,400 Speaker 1: sold part to be MG or you still own them, 816 01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:48,200 Speaker 1: or you sold all of it. So I eventually sold 817 01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:52,040 Speaker 1: all of it to be MG. And did you keep 818 01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:55,280 Speaker 1: your writer's share or you can? They gave you a check. Okay, 819 01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,720 Speaker 1: so you sold the publishing, but you still you still 820 01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:02,240 Speaker 1: get the writer's share. Okay. Did you ever get a 821 01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:07,920 Speaker 1: record royalty? Do you still get record royalties? You know, 822 01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:12,560 Speaker 1: I probably do somewhere. I mean I do have an 823 01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:18,160 Speaker 1: accountant to it kind of supervises this stuff. But it's 824 01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:23,880 Speaker 1: a it's a quantity that's been halved so many times 825 01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:29,160 Speaker 1: by our modern way of listening to music that it's 826 01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:32,919 Speaker 1: almost nothing. Well that's why I mentioned. And if it's 827 01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,160 Speaker 1: not nothing, they say you're in the hole. So you 828 01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,040 Speaker 1: make this deal with Kama Sutra. Tell me about making 829 01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:42,520 Speaker 1: the record and making the hit, Well, uh, we had 830 01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:47,720 Speaker 1: made Do You Believe In Magic? Going into a studio 831 01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:53,760 Speaker 1: independently and Eric Jacobson foot of the bill, and that 832 01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,800 Speaker 1: was the record that got turned down all over And 833 01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:00,400 Speaker 1: every time it got turned down, Yanovsky and I would go, 834 01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, you'd think we'd be discouraged. We go. Of course, 835 01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:07,440 Speaker 1: they didn't understand that they're they're they're looking for Fabian, 836 01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:10,439 Speaker 1: They're they're not gonna find it in us. And so 837 01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,040 Speaker 1: it was a kind of a bizarre twist that we 838 01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:18,160 Speaker 1: saw every turn down as yeah, we are that cool. 839 01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:22,400 Speaker 1: We're just that cool. So you make a deal with 840 01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:24,680 Speaker 1: Kama Sutra, what's the first thing you make an album? 841 01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:28,040 Speaker 1: Where they put out do you Believe in Magic? I 842 01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:35,720 Speaker 1: think we were on about making the album. Uh, and 843 01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:40,680 Speaker 1: I don't remember whether Magic got out. I think Magic 844 01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:46,320 Speaker 1: got out before the do you Believe In Magic? Album? 845 01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:50,520 Speaker 1: I believe this is summer sixty five. How long after 846 01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:54,760 Speaker 1: they put it out does it become such a big smash? Uh, 847 01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:59,919 Speaker 1: it didn't take long. It was amazing once it got 848 01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:05,160 Speaker 1: out there, Really how fast it did happen? Um? And 849 01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:09,520 Speaker 1: and also it didn't exactly happen on the East coast 850 01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:13,200 Speaker 1: for us. Uh, we sort of had to go play 851 01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:16,960 Speaker 1: the Trip and the Tiger Tail. Uh, those are all 852 01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:25,160 Speaker 1: the same club and uh and UH find a little 853 01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:31,080 Speaker 1: success with the California disc jockeys. They were probably more 854 01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:35,920 Speaker 1: enthusiastic about it. I mean, except for cousin Brucie, who's 855 01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:40,680 Speaker 1: been our ally forever. Uh, it was really it was, 856 01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:50,920 Speaker 1: It was like that. Okay, so it becomes a hit. 857 01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:53,479 Speaker 1: What's it like for you when you have a hit 858 01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:55,439 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you're playing these clubs, but 859 01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:58,439 Speaker 1: ultimately there's television, there's recognition, you hear the song on 860 01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:10,280 Speaker 1: the radio. What was your in tonal experience, mm hmm, Well, 861 01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:15,360 Speaker 1: of course it was joyous when we actually landed in 862 01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:19,960 Speaker 1: California and we turn on the radio in the rent 863 01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:26,519 Speaker 1: a car and we here uh California Girls, followed by 864 01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:31,280 Speaker 1: do you Believe in Magic? At which point Yanovski starts 865 01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:36,960 Speaker 1: hitting me all over my body. We're both in the 866 01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:40,080 Speaker 1: back seat, and then we start hitting each other, and 867 01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:43,559 Speaker 1: then Steve and Joe start hitting us, and so all 868 01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:46,000 Speaker 1: four we have to pull over so that we can 869 01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:53,400 Speaker 1: more thoroughly hit each other. And and so it was 870 01:09:53,600 --> 01:10:00,439 Speaker 1: absolutely a wonderful moment. And uh, nothing, nothing's gonna compared 871 01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:06,559 Speaker 1: to that. Okay, you have the hit, right even at 872 01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:11,560 Speaker 1: that era, following up the hit is very, very difficult 873 01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:15,439 Speaker 1: and very important, and there was a thing that the 874 01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:23,559 Speaker 1: Spoonful was really driven to pursue, and that was, we 875 01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:29,120 Speaker 1: want to sound like a different band every single because 876 01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:32,479 Speaker 1: the same old way of having it be the same 877 01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:36,559 Speaker 1: thing for three or four singles that that era is 878 01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:40,479 Speaker 1: gone now and so we have to make sure that 879 01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:46,479 Speaker 1: it sounds different. And uh, I probably couldn't have come 880 01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:49,840 Speaker 1: up with you didn't have to be so nice by myself. 881 01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:55,200 Speaker 1: That was a fragment that Steve Boon brought in one evening. 882 01:10:55,600 --> 01:11:00,920 Speaker 1: We're playing a kind of a topless club and and 883 01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:04,080 Speaker 1: he shows up in my dressing room, in my in 884 01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:08,840 Speaker 1: my uh uh, in my hotel room with this fragment, 885 01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:15,439 Speaker 1: and that became our second single, and uh, things really 886 01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:20,320 Speaker 1: did go that way. You know, I forget what the sequences, 887 01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:23,760 Speaker 1: but daydream and make up your mind or right in there, 888 01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:30,000 Speaker 1: and and uh, these are all different enough that that 889 01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:33,360 Speaker 1: or at least we think, you know. The funny thing 890 01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:37,280 Speaker 1: was we're saying, hey, man, they'll never guess. It's like, 891 01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,800 Speaker 1: this is so different, jays man, you didn't even play 892 01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:44,519 Speaker 1: your guitar. You played my guitar for that, they'll never guess. 893 01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:48,400 Speaker 1: And then it goes on the air and the DJ goes, well, 894 01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:52,360 Speaker 1: here's another example of that great spoonful sound, and we 895 01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:57,120 Speaker 1: go damn it. Okay, what was driving you at this 896 01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:00,320 Speaker 1: point you talked about earlier it was girls. Then you 897 01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:03,919 Speaker 1: have the excitement of meeting and playing with Zal. Needless 898 01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:06,120 Speaker 1: to say, you make it, their money comes in. What 899 01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:13,559 Speaker 1: was pushing you forward? Well, some of it was just 900 01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:17,519 Speaker 1: the fact that we were such underdogs, even though we 901 01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:22,479 Speaker 1: had the approval of several of our English contemporaries, rolling 902 01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:26,599 Speaker 1: Stone for whatever, one was not on the case for us. 903 01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:32,080 Speaker 1: Uh and uh so we had to kind of inch 904 01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:38,920 Speaker 1: our way up. And uh, I think that that was 905 01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:44,559 Speaker 1: its own its own driver. Yes, but you have hit 906 01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:47,760 Speaker 1: after hit after hit in an era where there's still 907 01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:50,680 Speaker 1: a ton of one hit wonders. I mean, at some 908 01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:52,519 Speaker 1: point you must have felt good about what you were 909 01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:57,040 Speaker 1: doing success wives. No, no, I certainly I was feeling 910 01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:00,680 Speaker 1: very good about it, No, no doubt out about it. 911 01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:04,439 Speaker 1: I probably got a real swelled head right around then. 912 01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:09,200 Speaker 1: But the only thing was that you had to keep 913 01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:15,680 Speaker 1: at it. Uh. You couldn't stop and think. Um. I mean, 914 01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,839 Speaker 1: I'm very glad that I had the partners that I had, 915 01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:22,840 Speaker 1: somebody like Yanovsky who would crack up when I wrote 916 01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:27,360 Speaker 1: Nashville Cats and think that, uh, pal, the thing I 917 01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:32,480 Speaker 1: wrote for Woody Allen was the funniest thing in the world. Uh. 918 01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:37,560 Speaker 1: You know that was also driving me the approval of Yanovsky, 919 01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:43,960 Speaker 1: who was really important to me. Okay, you have all 920 01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:46,120 Speaker 1: these hits in the sixties, and you have Welcome Back 921 01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:51,280 Speaker 1: Hotter in the seventies. He dries up. Why were there hits? 922 01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:53,600 Speaker 1: Needle to say, music is constantly evolving, and you had 923 01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:58,040 Speaker 1: an incredible success. But was it you were working with 924 01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:03,680 Speaker 1: those specific partners, or the sound changed or somehow you 925 01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:07,479 Speaker 1: couldn't do it anymore. Well, I had a wonderful time 926 01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:11,920 Speaker 1: working with those partners right up until it was gonna 927 01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:17,480 Speaker 1: be impossible because after Zali got busted, he started, uh 928 01:14:17,720 --> 01:14:23,160 Speaker 1: drinking a lot, a lot more, and that was really disappointing. 929 01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:28,400 Speaker 1: And uh you know, uh, also we we were starting 930 01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:33,080 Speaker 1: to have our own separate lives and and you know, 931 01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:36,400 Speaker 1: obviously Stephen was entering into a kind of a dark 932 01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:42,559 Speaker 1: period where he wasn't really available. Uh And uh so 933 01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:46,680 Speaker 1: there was a point when it was obvious to me 934 01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:51,080 Speaker 1: that and I was afraid to do this for the 935 01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:56,320 Speaker 1: longest time because I believed that people could not just 936 01:14:56,479 --> 01:15:01,559 Speaker 1: transition from a group and suddenly be a solo artist. 937 01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:07,640 Speaker 1: That that seemed like a real far stretch. Well, as 938 01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:11,679 Speaker 1: I say, the hits dried up. Do you believe if 939 01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:14,040 Speaker 1: you were still in the band the hits would have continued? 940 01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:18,080 Speaker 1: Or everything runs its course? I? I I think it probably 941 01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:23,719 Speaker 1: I'd go for the everything runs its course theory, because again, 942 01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:30,240 Speaker 1: surrounded by all of that approval and surrounded by a 943 01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:36,160 Speaker 1: good band that that had provided a tremendous amount of satisfaction. 944 01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:40,400 Speaker 1: But it was also obvious now that you know, the 945 01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:45,160 Speaker 1: grooves were different. They were more complicated grooves that our 946 01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:52,880 Speaker 1: rhythm section didn't really have facility with UH and and 947 01:15:54,160 --> 01:16:03,000 Speaker 1: they're really I was busy enough because I started recording 948 01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:09,120 Speaker 1: with Paul Rothschild UH to make a solo album. Okay, 949 01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:12,400 Speaker 1: before you get there, I vividly remember you being on 950 01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:15,200 Speaker 1: TV playing that auto harp. We're talking about it in 951 01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:18,120 Speaker 1: high school the next day. What was it like being 952 01:16:18,160 --> 01:16:20,799 Speaker 1: on Ed Sullivan? I mean, this is when those shows 953 01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:25,599 Speaker 1: had reached nothing has that reached today, Absolutely absolutely, And 954 01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:29,599 Speaker 1: it was remarkable and we were all ready to diss 955 01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:33,680 Speaker 1: it because we're Greenwich Village puppies and we want. We 956 01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:37,000 Speaker 1: just want to be counterculture every chance we get. And 957 01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:40,040 Speaker 1: so we're going, oh, you know Ed, you know, he 958 01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,439 Speaker 1: doesn't have any idea what we're about. It's great that 959 01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:47,000 Speaker 1: we're on the show. We'll play the thing. And like that, 960 01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:53,600 Speaker 1: Ed Sullivan comes out and does the introduction for The 961 01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:58,080 Speaker 1: Love and Spoonful, in which he pretty much says, this 962 01:16:58,479 --> 01:17:02,800 Speaker 1: is the American answer to the English invasion. And here 963 01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:05,400 Speaker 1: they are and they write their own songs and they 964 01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:08,479 Speaker 1: do their own ship. And you know I'm paraphrasing, but 965 01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:13,040 Speaker 1: we we were standing there about to play, and I mean, 966 01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:16,479 Speaker 1: I don't know whether my mouth was still wide open 967 01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:19,919 Speaker 1: when the cameras came on us, but I was still 968 01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:24,080 Speaker 1: recovering from oh man, we're gonna have to We're gonna 969 01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:30,600 Speaker 1: have to reassess our our assessment of of Ed, you know. 970 01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:35,679 Speaker 1: And he persisted every time we'd come on, he'd he'd 971 01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:39,639 Speaker 1: be that same guy. Um. I heard that that later 972 01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:43,880 Speaker 1: from Denny Doharty that he seemed like he wasn't as 973 01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:48,320 Speaker 1: able when the Mamas and Papas played it, but boy, 974 01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:51,840 Speaker 1: when The Spoonful played it, he was right on top 975 01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:55,320 Speaker 1: of it. So what is it like being on national 976 01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:59,920 Speaker 1: television and then walking on the street. Well, you know, 977 01:18:00,360 --> 01:18:03,960 Speaker 1: don't think you're gonna get recognized right away, because for 978 01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:09,040 Speaker 1: one thing, Yanovski is gonna get recognized several hours before 979 01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:12,880 Speaker 1: you are noticed. And and so I'm I'm used to 980 01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:18,040 Speaker 1: that because Ali's he's got the Borcellino hat and the 981 01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:21,840 Speaker 1: whole rig, and you know, he's obviously a rock star. 982 01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:27,920 Speaker 1: Remember again, it's it's Greenwich Village. Everybody's being cool. So 983 01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:31,639 Speaker 1: it isn't the same thing as returning to your high 984 01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:34,760 Speaker 1: school and coming in with a hit record, you know, 985 01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:38,559 Speaker 1: where all of a sudden, the cheerleader likes you. You know, 986 01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:43,160 Speaker 1: it was different, Okay, and in that era because shortly 987 01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:48,160 Speaker 1: thereafter there's the rock star lifestyle. Are you partaking of 988 01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:51,960 Speaker 1: the drugs, the women? What is your life? Like? I 989 01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:56,519 Speaker 1: got lucky a few times, but I was not an 990 01:18:56,520 --> 01:19:03,160 Speaker 1: abusive rock star. Uh. And so like I say, uh, 991 01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:07,360 Speaker 1: it was it was not going to be my incentive, 992 01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:13,759 Speaker 1: uh to try to engage a underage girl or something. Uh. 993 01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:18,080 Speaker 1: Luckily we had our girlfriends by that time and they 994 01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:23,679 Speaker 1: were appropriate ages. Uh. But you know, as time went 995 01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:28,520 Speaker 1: on and a few years went by, then those temptations 996 01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:34,760 Speaker 1: became a little stronger. Uh, the girls became impossibly good 997 01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:41,400 Speaker 1: looking and uh uh so so yeah to that extent. Uh, 998 01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:45,080 Speaker 1: like I say, but it was it was good luck, 999 01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:52,360 Speaker 1: wasn't force. You know, you gotta make the distinction between 1000 01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:56,800 Speaker 1: that period and you know what would you know, I 1001 01:19:56,840 --> 01:20:01,360 Speaker 1: don't know, led zepp. Uh. You know that era where 1002 01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:05,680 Speaker 1: girls who were like klean x and and life was 1003 01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:10,679 Speaker 1: beautiful and the champagne was flowing. We we didn't really 1004 01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:15,800 Speaker 1: get there. We were too busy doing gigs. Sometime, for 1005 01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:21,240 Speaker 1: your own amusement, I'll send you the Loving Spoonfuls schedule. 1006 01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:25,680 Speaker 1: It was documented by an Englishman who's a nut for 1007 01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:30,880 Speaker 1: the Spoonful and I look at that and it's unbelievable 1008 01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:34,120 Speaker 1: how many gigs we did. You know, Hey, it still 1009 01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:37,759 Speaker 1: doesn't compare with Fats Domino, but it was pretty good 1010 01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:40,840 Speaker 1: for some white guys. Okay, let me talk about a 1011 01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:44,600 Speaker 1: couple of my favorite Spoonful tracks. Give me the backstory. 1012 01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:51,559 Speaker 1: Six o'clock. Six o'clock came about because I was mourning 1013 01:20:51,600 --> 01:21:00,000 Speaker 1: the loss of a beautiful redheaded girlfriend. The tune itself, uh, 1014 01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:08,120 Speaker 1: somehow evolved from hammering on a new instrument from Honer 1015 01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:15,480 Speaker 1: called the clavinett Uh. And there are people on websites 1016 01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:21,240 Speaker 1: still trying to decide whether six o'clock is the first 1017 01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:27,360 Speaker 1: use of the electric harpsichord, UH, which we have no idea, 1018 01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:34,360 Speaker 1: But that was, that was the way that that UH emerged. Now, 1019 01:21:34,439 --> 01:21:42,839 Speaker 1: remember we're in transition now, Zali UH will occasionally visit 1020 01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:45,439 Speaker 1: our sessions. It's not like, you know, we This is 1021 01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:49,160 Speaker 1: the other thing that was so different for with our band. 1022 01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:53,640 Speaker 1: You know, we took eight by ten glosses with the 1023 01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:57,080 Speaker 1: new band member. But if you look closely at the 1024 01:21:57,080 --> 01:22:00,400 Speaker 1: glossy and you looked in the trees behind where we 1025 01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:05,960 Speaker 1: were standing, you'd see Zali looking forlorn and it's sad, 1026 01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:11,240 Speaker 1: and you know it was it was Yanovski all the way. 1027 01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:17,559 Speaker 1: But I mean, in some ways it's it's separated us 1028 01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:24,000 Speaker 1: from ever being that perfect. I don't know, Uh, you know, 1029 01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:29,920 Speaker 1: money making band that UH does no wrong, Darling be 1030 01:22:30,040 --> 01:22:34,080 Speaker 1: home soon. It came about because I was listening to 1031 01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:38,120 Speaker 1: a lot of songs on the radio that went, oh 1032 01:22:38,200 --> 01:22:40,920 Speaker 1: my honey, I love you so much and now I 1033 01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:43,800 Speaker 1: have to go on the road and it's so hard 1034 01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:47,240 Speaker 1: and it makes me so unhappy. And I was going, 1035 01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:51,280 Speaker 1: wait a minute, and maybe this is partially having a 1036 01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:56,639 Speaker 1: musician as a father. I said, well, this you got 1037 01:22:56,680 --> 01:23:03,400 Speaker 1: this wrong. When you get this going, that's that's what 1038 01:23:03,520 --> 01:23:07,760 Speaker 1: you want to have happened. Keep it going. Uh and 1039 01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:13,599 Speaker 1: uh So I thought maybe it would be I could 1040 01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:16,960 Speaker 1: sort of write that song. Only what if I took 1041 01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:24,240 Speaker 1: it from the other partners side? What if you know 1042 01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:30,879 Speaker 1: the song was really being sung by whoever stays at home? Okay, 1043 01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:32,920 Speaker 1: what do you think when you heard Joe Cocker's version? 1044 01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:38,320 Speaker 1: I loved it. I went nuts. Uh And in fact 1045 01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:42,040 Speaker 1: I would see him occasionally because we'd get paired in 1046 01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:47,640 Speaker 1: these various uh sorry, yes, Woodstock imitation shows in in 1047 01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:53,400 Speaker 1: subsequent years. But I loved that man, and he and 1048 01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:58,120 Speaker 1: I spent a considerable time in in in dressing rooms 1049 01:23:58,439 --> 01:24:02,160 Speaker 1: not talking because he was glad to have somebody that 1050 01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:05,120 Speaker 1: didn't want to talk to it, and I was glad 1051 01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:09,960 Speaker 1: to provide that. He was a delightful guy. Okay, I 1052 01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:13,600 Speaker 1: have to ask about Summer in the City. Yeah, it 1053 01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:17,360 Speaker 1: was an iconic record, came out during the summer of 1054 01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:21,879 Speaker 1: the late spring. Had had that sound? How is that created? 1055 01:24:21,960 --> 01:24:24,240 Speaker 1: And what is it? That's a staple that has never 1056 01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:28,639 Speaker 1: gone away? So tell me about your experience there. Well, 1057 01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:33,160 Speaker 1: the song really began with Mark Sebastian, my younger brother, 1058 01:24:34,360 --> 01:24:39,720 Speaker 1: who had come up with an idea of you know, 1059 01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:43,960 Speaker 1: summer in the city, you know it's gonna get hot, 1060 01:24:44,560 --> 01:24:48,400 Speaker 1: the shadows of the buildings will be the only show 1061 01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:52,120 Speaker 1: shade spot. But at night it's a different world going. 1062 01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:56,400 Speaker 1: I say, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's that? And what are 1063 01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:59,840 Speaker 1: those chords? And my brother showed him to me, and 1064 01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:04,720 Speaker 1: I said, man, that is a fabulous chorus, and that 1065 01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:11,160 Speaker 1: it made me want to create tension because it was 1066 01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:15,400 Speaker 1: such a good release. It goes to the sub dominant chord, 1067 01:25:15,479 --> 01:25:17,640 Speaker 1: then it goes to the sub dominant chord of that 1068 01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:20,759 Speaker 1: and it's like a double wall. You don't know where 1069 01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:23,680 Speaker 1: you are for a minute. And and and to me 1070 01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:29,800 Speaker 1: that that had this wonderful quality of release, that it 1071 01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:36,479 Speaker 1: made me want to, uh increase the tension in the beginning. 1072 01:25:37,840 --> 01:25:44,720 Speaker 1: So I, instead of what Mark had written on that beginning, 1073 01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:48,760 Speaker 1: I started. I started with an idea. I said, I 1074 01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:52,160 Speaker 1: wanted to have tension. I wanted to be like Night 1075 01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:55,599 Speaker 1: on Bald Mountain. Okay, one of the things that scared 1076 01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:58,600 Speaker 1: the living p out of me as a kid was 1077 01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:02,840 Speaker 1: Night on bald Mountain and to me, that thing in 1078 01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:05,920 Speaker 1: the beginning where you you hear the strings come in 1079 01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:15,720 Speaker 1: very quietly at first, donn bah pap pap pa papa, 1080 01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:21,960 Speaker 1: And you know that that remarkable piece of writing. And 1081 01:26:22,040 --> 01:26:26,000 Speaker 1: so I want to imitate that somehow. And that was 1082 01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:29,559 Speaker 1: all it was. Was bad, you know, I don't know, 1083 01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:33,800 Speaker 1: kind of underachieving there, but that was the goal, and 1084 01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:37,920 Speaker 1: that was you were the producer. That was me. Okay, 1085 01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:41,559 Speaker 1: just jumping forward one song from your soul. Oh wait now, 1086 01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:47,400 Speaker 1: but but there is there is production detail here worth mentioning, 1087 01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:53,880 Speaker 1: Which was that? Again? It's Yanovsky starts the trouble. He goes, 1088 01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:56,880 Speaker 1: I don't want the drums to sound like drums. I 1089 01:26:56,960 --> 01:27:00,960 Speaker 1: wanted to sound like a garbage can fall down an 1090 01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:07,160 Speaker 1: eight story stairwell, metal stairwell. So we're working with Roy 1091 01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:11,400 Speaker 1: Haley for the first time. Uh, he's a guy in 1092 01:27:11,479 --> 01:27:14,679 Speaker 1: a white lab coat. You got to remember the era. 1093 01:27:15,720 --> 01:27:20,360 Speaker 1: And once Sally says the thing about the stairwell, he goes, well, 1094 01:27:20,479 --> 01:27:27,479 Speaker 1: you know we have an eight story metal stairwell. Really well, 1095 01:27:27,520 --> 01:27:30,559 Speaker 1: in no time, we are pushing a voice of the 1096 01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:34,760 Speaker 1: theater speaker on onto the ground floor of this stairwell 1097 01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:42,200 Speaker 1: taking a microphone up eight floors, and it's recording this 1098 01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:48,280 Speaker 1: enormous echo of the of the snare, But of course 1099 01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:53,680 Speaker 1: it's decay is way too long, so Roy ends up 1100 01:27:54,080 --> 01:27:58,880 Speaker 1: wowing the cap stand that controls that echo so that 1101 01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:03,880 Speaker 1: it will go and then disappear. Well, of course you 1102 01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:08,719 Speaker 1: know that that same stairwell was then used twice more 1103 01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:13,400 Speaker 1: for the Boxer and for Bridge over Troubled Water. It's 1104 01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:18,759 Speaker 1: that stairwell. Wow. You ever tire of you? Ever tire 1105 01:28:18,800 --> 01:28:24,519 Speaker 1: of hearing Summer in the City? No? Really, not, Okay. 1106 01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:26,880 Speaker 1: I want to mention one other song that not everybody knows, 1107 01:28:26,920 --> 01:28:29,640 Speaker 1: but it's a big favorite of mine. It's after Tarzana 1108 01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:32,879 Speaker 1: Kid album, but that's not where I discovered it. Valerie 1109 01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:36,400 Speaker 1: Carter does a great version of Face of Appalachia. Oh 1110 01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:39,640 Speaker 1: She Kills. And of course that song You're Tarzana King 1111 01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:42,519 Speaker 1: is now available Tarzana Kid is available online. Tell me 1112 01:28:42,560 --> 01:28:48,000 Speaker 1: the backstory on that record? Well, Um, I had become 1113 01:28:48,120 --> 01:28:56,479 Speaker 1: friends with Lowell George and we found each other very amusing, uh, 1114 01:28:56,479 --> 01:28:59,160 Speaker 1: And we started to spend a lot of time together 1115 01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:03,839 Speaker 1: and we started to just call each other with hey, 1116 01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:08,360 Speaker 1: listen to this kind of phone calls. Well, one day, 1117 01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:12,800 Speaker 1: Lowell calls me up and says, hey, listen to this, 1118 01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:17,559 Speaker 1: And what I hear is it's an acoustic guitar, but 1119 01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:23,240 Speaker 1: it's so smeared with compression that it almost doesn't sound 1120 01:29:23,360 --> 01:29:30,439 Speaker 1: like uh that that instrument. Well, I say, man, that 1121 01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:34,360 Speaker 1: is so cool. That sounds like, I don't know, like 1122 01:29:34,479 --> 01:29:38,040 Speaker 1: the face of Appalachia or something. And he goes that, yep, 1123 01:29:38,160 --> 01:29:43,599 Speaker 1: that do that? Yeah right that. Uh So I started 1124 01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:47,920 Speaker 1: working on it, and uh it took me the whole summer, Robert. 1125 01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:51,840 Speaker 1: It's the only song that took me a long time. 1126 01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:56,880 Speaker 1: Uh and it really uh it. I just kept working 1127 01:29:56,920 --> 01:30:01,360 Speaker 1: on it all summer. It's a song, as you can tell, 1128 01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:08,320 Speaker 1: about my grandfather and how he had dreamed of making 1129 01:30:08,320 --> 01:30:14,880 Speaker 1: this trip with me, of walking the Appalachian Trail. And 1130 01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:19,840 Speaker 1: so it was the combination of the nostalgia of the 1131 01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:25,120 Speaker 1: contrast between my background, you know, being born in blocks 1132 01:30:25,120 --> 01:30:29,479 Speaker 1: of buildings, and and his vision that he wanted me 1133 01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:35,040 Speaker 1: to see, of the Coltrane's wailing banjos, frailing and all 1134 01:30:35,040 --> 01:30:39,720 Speaker 1: of that stuff. So so that really that was it. 1135 01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:43,720 Speaker 1: And I would have to mention that Lowell, George and 1136 01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:47,439 Speaker 1: Ry Cooter both played on that record, so you couldn't 1137 01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:54,040 Speaker 1: get you couldn't get slide here, that's for sure. Okay, 1138 01:30:54,439 --> 01:30:58,160 Speaker 1: you end up working on Francis Ford Coppola's first movie, 1139 01:30:58,600 --> 01:31:01,640 Speaker 1: You're a Big Boy. Now. How does come together? You know? 1140 01:31:02,160 --> 01:31:08,760 Speaker 1: It was fairly fairly mechanical in that my manager, Bob Cavallo, 1141 01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:14,759 Speaker 1: nw uh, the the team that was making that movie, 1142 01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:19,880 Speaker 1: and somehow or another, I really don't know how Coppola 1143 01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:23,240 Speaker 1: came up with our name as the guys that should 1144 01:31:23,240 --> 01:31:26,960 Speaker 1: do the movie. But we got the call that, you know, 1145 01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:30,559 Speaker 1: go over to path A Labs or something and and 1146 01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:34,400 Speaker 1: talk to this guy. So we go over there, and 1147 01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:37,599 Speaker 1: you know, we don't know from Francis Coppola. Nobody does. 1148 01:31:38,080 --> 01:31:42,160 Speaker 1: But one thing was obvious. This guy's he's got this 1149 01:31:42,280 --> 01:31:47,519 Speaker 1: New York Italian thing that I'm immediately drawn in by 1150 01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:51,200 Speaker 1: this guy. Uh and and he has a wonderful funny 1151 01:31:51,280 --> 01:31:56,080 Speaker 1: way of presenting stuff. And uh, there were things that 1152 01:31:56,160 --> 01:32:00,280 Speaker 1: he would say like, Okay, so I need I need 1153 01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:06,719 Speaker 1: a song for this, uh, this couple. And they're there. 1154 01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:10,559 Speaker 1: It's a it's a kind of a a strange pairing 1155 01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:15,720 Speaker 1: now and they're gonna be a couple though soon and uh, 1156 01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:19,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna play a song that's sort of like the 1157 01:32:19,240 --> 01:32:25,639 Speaker 1: vibe by one, and he plays Monday Monday. Well, all 1158 01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:29,479 Speaker 1: I took from Monday Monday was the tempo. But but 1159 01:32:29,760 --> 01:32:32,880 Speaker 1: it was an obvious Oh yeah, I can see how 1160 01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:36,799 Speaker 1: this kind of a mood would be good. Uh. Other things, 1161 01:32:36,880 --> 01:32:41,040 Speaker 1: like he'd say, Okay, now I need a song for 1162 01:32:41,439 --> 01:32:47,160 Speaker 1: Amy the girl. And she's the good girl. But you know, John, 1163 01:32:47,800 --> 01:32:53,519 Speaker 1: she's not quite as attractive as my bad girl. So 1164 01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:58,680 Speaker 1: I need a song to kind of kind of inflate 1165 01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:04,680 Speaker 1: her a little bit, make her more important. So I 1166 01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:09,400 Speaker 1: write a tune called Amy's Theme. And uh, as soon 1167 01:33:09,439 --> 01:33:12,360 Speaker 1: as he hears that, he goes, oh yeah, and you know, 1168 01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do a thing here. Uh. So you know, 1169 01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:25,240 Speaker 1: when the guy is wandering around New York City by himself, 1170 01:33:26,760 --> 01:33:30,799 Speaker 1: Now we've heard Amy's Theme with Amy in the picture, 1171 01:33:31,479 --> 01:33:35,639 Speaker 1: but now I'm gonna use that theme with her out 1172 01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:39,640 Speaker 1: of the picture. It's gonna be just him, and you 1173 01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:43,519 Speaker 1: know what the audience is gonna be thinking. And all 1174 01:33:43,600 --> 01:33:47,280 Speaker 1: of us gotta go, no, we don't know. He says, 1175 01:33:48,720 --> 01:33:53,559 Speaker 1: they're gonna be saying he's thinking about that girl, And 1176 01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:58,000 Speaker 1: I go, wow, you know this is, you know, writing 1177 01:33:58,040 --> 01:34:01,639 Speaker 1: for movies, and I did it by accident. So it 1178 01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:06,360 Speaker 1: was that was the experience. It was really informative. I 1179 01:34:06,439 --> 01:34:11,439 Speaker 1: learned so much and just disappointed he never called again. 1180 01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:15,599 Speaker 1: What do you think where the Godfather came out? I mean, 1181 01:34:15,680 --> 01:34:18,720 Speaker 1: come on, I can write you in Italian. No, now 1182 01:34:18,720 --> 01:34:22,080 Speaker 1: he's got his dad. The dad kills it. Yeah, you're 1183 01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:26,679 Speaker 1: not going to improve on on Mr Couple, I'm afraid. Okay, 1184 01:34:26,720 --> 01:34:30,439 Speaker 1: of course you Then you get huge exposure a year 1185 01:34:30,479 --> 01:34:35,519 Speaker 1: after it happens in August sixty nine, is Woodstock gets 1186 01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:38,200 Speaker 1: a lot of press, not that it's focused on you. 1187 01:34:38,800 --> 01:34:42,519 Speaker 1: Then there's the triple album set, and then there's the 1188 01:34:42,560 --> 01:34:46,720 Speaker 1: movie becomes a phenomenon. One other thing we know is 1189 01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:49,559 Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff on the original three record 1190 01:34:49,640 --> 01:34:54,240 Speaker 1: set was it actually recorded it Woodstock? So why did 1191 01:34:54,320 --> 01:34:57,960 Speaker 1: you go to Woodstock? What was up with the tidy? 1192 01:34:58,520 --> 01:35:01,439 Speaker 1: Tell us your experience and then the aftermath of having 1193 01:35:01,439 --> 01:35:08,120 Speaker 1: all that visibility. Okay, so by this time, um, I 1194 01:35:08,680 --> 01:35:13,800 Speaker 1: have divorced my first wife and moved out to California 1195 01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:16,840 Speaker 1: in a kind of I don't know what I'm doing 1196 01:35:17,000 --> 01:35:20,600 Speaker 1: kind of a way, and and who but Paul Rothchild 1197 01:35:20,640 --> 01:35:23,040 Speaker 1: says man, you've got to be out here. Look all 1198 01:35:23,080 --> 01:35:26,800 Speaker 1: of your brothers, they've all moved from Greenwich Village and 1199 01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:31,160 Speaker 1: they're all out here. And this whole sensitive singer songwriter 1200 01:35:31,280 --> 01:35:35,160 Speaker 1: thing you can dive right in here, So come on out. 1201 01:35:35,200 --> 01:35:40,759 Speaker 1: You know that. That was kind of the way it began. 1202 01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:47,960 Speaker 1: I moved to California. But while I'm out there, I 1203 01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:51,519 Speaker 1: stay at the home of a guy named Cyrus Farrier 1204 01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:55,479 Speaker 1: who was in the Modern Folk Quartet. And one of 1205 01:35:55,520 --> 01:35:58,280 Speaker 1: the things I learned there from a woman named Annie 1206 01:35:58,280 --> 01:36:03,000 Speaker 1: Thomas is tied dyeing. U Uh. You know. It starts 1207 01:36:03,040 --> 01:36:06,799 Speaker 1: with underwear and socks and things. But after a while, 1208 01:36:06,840 --> 01:36:10,919 Speaker 1: I go, I'm gonna actually buy a white leave jacket 1209 01:36:11,080 --> 01:36:16,240 Speaker 1: and actually have it be purposed to be a jacket 1210 01:36:16,280 --> 01:36:20,559 Speaker 1: that has all these colors on it. So, uh, you know, 1211 01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:26,920 Speaker 1: between uh, tying and sewing and various things, I get 1212 01:36:26,960 --> 01:36:30,000 Speaker 1: this thing. And it takes it takes weeks because I'm 1213 01:36:30,160 --> 01:36:35,000 Speaker 1: I'm dipping into these various buckets and the buckets have 1214 01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:39,080 Speaker 1: to be hot, so there's a time limit. Uh, and 1215 01:36:39,160 --> 01:36:42,440 Speaker 1: so all of this is part of the process. Okay, 1216 01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:47,639 Speaker 1: But then I get the jacket and again Rothschild is saying, 1217 01:36:47,840 --> 01:36:51,759 Speaker 1: you know, I can't do this, but this would stock 1218 01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:55,760 Speaker 1: festival thing. It's it's sounding like it could really be 1219 01:36:55,840 --> 01:37:00,160 Speaker 1: something cool. So maybe you know, if you can take 1220 01:37:00,160 --> 01:37:03,960 Speaker 1: get there, you ought to try to make it well. 1221 01:37:04,120 --> 01:37:06,479 Speaker 1: As it turned out, I was on the East Coast 1222 01:37:06,479 --> 01:37:09,960 Speaker 1: in that general time, and so I made my way 1223 01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:14,600 Speaker 1: to the Albany Airport. I'm and I'm standing in the 1224 01:37:14,640 --> 01:37:22,000 Speaker 1: Albany Airport looking out the picture window another era of airports, 1225 01:37:22,600 --> 01:37:27,160 Speaker 1: and I see a guy loading a helicopter and I 1226 01:37:27,240 --> 01:37:32,240 Speaker 1: look closely and it's Walter Gundhi, the original The Love 1227 01:37:32,280 --> 01:37:38,000 Speaker 1: and Spoonfuls First road e And so between gesturing and 1228 01:37:38,040 --> 01:37:41,000 Speaker 1: so on, I get his attention. He points to a 1229 01:37:41,120 --> 01:37:44,640 Speaker 1: staircase that I can come down on the tar Mac with. 1230 01:37:45,520 --> 01:37:47,840 Speaker 1: So I do that. I go down on the tar Mac. 1231 01:37:48,120 --> 01:37:50,919 Speaker 1: He says, you're trying to get to Woodsuck. I go yeah. 1232 01:37:51,040 --> 01:37:53,439 Speaker 1: He goes to get in the helicopter. It's the only 1233 01:37:53,479 --> 01:37:57,040 Speaker 1: way you're gonna get there. I'm roadying for the Incredible 1234 01:37:57,080 --> 01:38:01,879 Speaker 1: String Band. So uh, that's where I'm going one okay, 1235 01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:06,880 Speaker 1: So that's how that's how the trip began. And me 1236 01:38:07,000 --> 01:38:12,200 Speaker 1: and a helicopter. I see that same view over the 1237 01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:17,559 Speaker 1: site that is so famous in the movie where there's 1238 01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:21,960 Speaker 1: there's no ground. You just see sleeping bags and tents 1239 01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:29,439 Speaker 1: and and Volkswagen busses and so on. So I pretty 1240 01:38:29,520 --> 01:38:35,840 Speaker 1: much I just showed up and U there were things 1241 01:38:35,880 --> 01:38:39,040 Speaker 1: that were that were going on that made it easier. 1242 01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:42,360 Speaker 1: One of them was that there was a yellow Volkswagen 1243 01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:46,360 Speaker 1: bus tent right in front of the stage. Well, as 1244 01:38:46,360 --> 01:38:50,000 Speaker 1: it turns out, I had been living in a yellow 1245 01:38:50,120 --> 01:38:55,240 Speaker 1: Volkswagen bus tent in Los Angeles because that was what 1246 01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:59,080 Speaker 1: was available to me at that at my friend's house. 1247 01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:04,160 Speaker 1: Remember me, there's very little security or anything. You can 1248 01:39:04,200 --> 01:39:07,840 Speaker 1: go where you want to go. So I've I circled 1249 01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:13,280 Speaker 1: the entire site with with David Brown, wonderful bass player 1250 01:39:13,360 --> 01:39:19,200 Speaker 1: for the Santana and uh. By the next day, I'm 1251 01:39:19,360 --> 01:39:25,240 Speaker 1: on stage uh fairly frequently. And at a certain point 1252 01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:29,880 Speaker 1: it begins to rain and I'm standing there with the 1253 01:39:29,920 --> 01:39:36,320 Speaker 1: promoters and and Chipmunk and we're sort of talking and 1254 01:39:36,880 --> 01:39:43,960 Speaker 1: Michael says, uh, you know, uh, what we need is 1255 01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:48,400 Speaker 1: the guy to hold them for long enough for us 1256 01:39:48,439 --> 01:39:53,240 Speaker 1: to sweep the stage because we can't put electric instruments, 1257 01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:57,200 Speaker 1: so we can't put any electric band on Uh, so 1258 01:39:57,680 --> 01:40:00,800 Speaker 1: we gotta have a guy who can hold um, you know, 1259 01:40:01,120 --> 01:40:04,439 Speaker 1: maybe with some good songs. And I'm I'm staring out 1260 01:40:04,479 --> 01:40:07,880 Speaker 1: at the audience at this moment and I'm shaking my head. Yeah, 1261 01:40:07,920 --> 01:40:12,480 Speaker 1: that's that's that's free. That's what we need. And uh 1262 01:40:12,680 --> 01:40:16,879 Speaker 1: then I realized that they're looking at me, and I say, fellas, 1263 01:40:17,240 --> 01:40:20,040 Speaker 1: I didn't bring I may have a thumb pick, I 1264 01:40:20,080 --> 01:40:25,320 Speaker 1: didn't bring any instruments. I didn't I'm not prepared to play. 1265 01:40:25,560 --> 01:40:28,760 Speaker 1: And they say, well, you actually have a couple of 1266 01:40:28,800 --> 01:40:33,120 Speaker 1: minutes to go find a guitar. And so I end 1267 01:40:33,240 --> 01:40:39,200 Speaker 1: up down in the sort of underground of that hastily 1268 01:40:39,240 --> 01:40:44,559 Speaker 1: assembled stage and who's down there relaxing but Timmy Harden, 1269 01:40:45,080 --> 01:40:49,000 Speaker 1: who had been a frequent uh you know. I played 1270 01:40:49,040 --> 01:40:53,040 Speaker 1: with Timmy a lot in in Greenwich Village. And so 1271 01:40:53,120 --> 01:40:56,480 Speaker 1: I said, tim could I borrow your harm any sovereign? 1272 01:40:56,600 --> 01:40:59,559 Speaker 1: And he says sure man, and I I'm back up 1273 01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:03,839 Speaker 1: on age. I'm tuning as I run up the stairs, 1274 01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:10,400 Speaker 1: and uh. From there, I walk on stage and dan 1275 01:41:10,520 --> 01:41:16,920 Speaker 1: it was pretty remarkable experience for a guy who played 1276 01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:21,680 Speaker 1: mostly to audiences of maybe three hundred, you know, the 1277 01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:26,320 Speaker 1: spoonful you gotta remember, this wasn't the scale of rock 1278 01:41:26,400 --> 01:41:29,960 Speaker 1: and roll that everybody thinks of when they think of, 1279 01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:33,760 Speaker 1: you know, the sixties and rock and roll. Yeah, it 1280 01:41:33,840 --> 01:41:38,679 Speaker 1: really was a smaller scale operation. So when you suddenly 1281 01:41:39,360 --> 01:41:42,880 Speaker 1: have that many people in front of you, it is 1282 01:41:43,439 --> 01:41:47,360 Speaker 1: it is startling. But the thing that I rarely get 1283 01:41:47,400 --> 01:41:52,360 Speaker 1: around to Robert and I'll tell you is that everybody 1284 01:41:52,400 --> 01:41:57,559 Speaker 1: that played there had had success in rooms with forty 1285 01:41:57,840 --> 01:42:01,360 Speaker 1: people in the audience, and that's where you learn how 1286 01:42:01,400 --> 01:42:06,719 Speaker 1: to do what you do. And really Woodstock was a 1287 01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:12,320 Speaker 1: very intimate half a million people. I can't quite describe 1288 01:42:12,320 --> 01:42:16,080 Speaker 1: how I I never saw it happen again, but oh 1289 01:42:16,160 --> 01:42:20,679 Speaker 1: my god, they were quiet. I mean, who knows how 1290 01:42:20,720 --> 01:42:24,800 Speaker 1: to quiet half a million people? So it was as 1291 01:42:24,880 --> 01:42:29,840 Speaker 1: much of of a remarkable experience for me as as 1292 01:42:29,880 --> 01:42:34,040 Speaker 1: for everybody else that got the opportunity to play. Okay, 1293 01:42:34,040 --> 01:42:37,680 Speaker 1: you play, Yeah, When when you're done, what kind of 1294 01:42:37,760 --> 01:42:44,080 Speaker 1: high do you have? Pretty pretty strong. I think it'd 1295 01:42:44,080 --> 01:42:46,880 Speaker 1: be several days before I can get my head through 1296 01:42:46,880 --> 01:42:50,960 Speaker 1: the door. Uh. That was a remarkable feeling, no no 1297 01:42:51,000 --> 01:42:53,880 Speaker 1: doubt about it. Yeah, how do you end up on 1298 01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:59,200 Speaker 1: the record in the movie, Well, that was just because 1299 01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:04,400 Speaker 1: they were wording and filming, so they had me, and uh, 1300 01:43:05,120 --> 01:43:09,080 Speaker 1: I I wasn't going to turn it down. Uh. I 1301 01:43:09,400 --> 01:43:13,519 Speaker 1: felt like, okay, I went up once. I forgot a verse, 1302 01:43:14,080 --> 01:43:17,960 Speaker 1: but it wasn't terrible, and uh the audience seemed to 1303 01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:22,080 Speaker 1: like it. I guess they be okay. Well, I had 1304 01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:27,040 Speaker 1: no idea really the scale of acceptance and what that 1305 01:43:27,120 --> 01:43:31,200 Speaker 1: movie became. Um. And one of the things, one of 1306 01:43:31,240 --> 01:43:37,360 Speaker 1: the outgrowths of that was that for another three years 1307 01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:43,240 Speaker 1: I rarely played inside. One thing, and the other thing 1308 01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:48,320 Speaker 1: was that I played every one of those lonely ass 1309 01:43:48,520 --> 01:43:54,400 Speaker 1: wanna be Woodstock. Uh we we charge money kind of shows. 1310 01:43:54,920 --> 01:43:59,320 Speaker 1: Everybody had the same idea, only this time we have 1311 01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:03,160 Speaker 1: an actual ticket booth and they go by the ticket booth. 1312 01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:07,479 Speaker 1: And you know, so I did. I played every one 1313 01:44:07,520 --> 01:44:10,719 Speaker 1: of them. That's where I got to know Joe uh 1314 01:44:10,880 --> 01:44:14,240 Speaker 1: Cocker and a number of folks who were, you know, 1315 01:44:14,400 --> 01:44:19,519 Speaker 1: pretty pretty much regulars. Uh. As a result of that movie, 1316 01:44:19,960 --> 01:44:24,120 Speaker 1: you became known as the tide guy. I'm happy. Were 1317 01:44:24,120 --> 01:44:28,400 Speaker 1: you happy with that? For a while? I was happy? 1318 01:44:28,439 --> 01:44:34,599 Speaker 1: But I actually can date it from a television show 1319 01:44:34,680 --> 01:44:38,760 Speaker 1: I was watching where Cheech and Chong are the guests 1320 01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:42,880 Speaker 1: and they come out and they sit down and and 1321 01:44:43,040 --> 01:44:46,200 Speaker 1: Cheech is sitting closest, and he's got a tie dyed 1322 01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:51,599 Speaker 1: shirt on. And uh, the the uh announcer says, well, though, 1323 01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:55,040 Speaker 1: that's just wonderfully has a fake name, and and tell me, 1324 01:44:55,240 --> 01:44:59,679 Speaker 1: uh so, uh did you tie dye that yourself? And 1325 01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:07,280 Speaker 1: he says no, I threw up. And that was when 1326 01:45:07,320 --> 01:45:12,960 Speaker 1: I knew. Oops, it's the end of the tie dye era. 1327 01:45:13,800 --> 01:45:17,519 Speaker 1: Now it's funny. And it wasn't long after that that 1328 01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:21,680 Speaker 1: I started wearing black clothes for a couple of years 1329 01:45:21,720 --> 01:45:25,280 Speaker 1: just to shake it off. Okay, you have a new 1330 01:45:25,400 --> 01:45:30,520 Speaker 1: album where a lot of your classic Love and Spoonful 1331 01:45:30,680 --> 01:45:35,000 Speaker 1: songs are re cut. It's an interesting project because it's 1332 01:45:35,000 --> 01:45:38,400 Speaker 1: with Arlen Roth, the guitarist. A few of the songs 1333 01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:42,640 Speaker 1: were instrumentals. Tell us how this came together, Well, it 1334 01:45:42,840 --> 01:45:50,160 Speaker 1: came about completely as uh Arland's idea. Originally. Uh. He 1335 01:45:50,280 --> 01:45:53,679 Speaker 1: and I had known each other chiefs me. We probably 1336 01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:57,160 Speaker 1: go back thirty five years. Uh. And you know, we 1337 01:45:57,200 --> 01:46:01,479 Speaker 1: would cross paths frequently because both of us were accompanists 1338 01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:04,840 Speaker 1: before we were you know, the guy under the spotlight 1339 01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:10,160 Speaker 1: or whatever, and so so we we had been friends 1340 01:46:10,160 --> 01:46:14,880 Speaker 1: a long time, and also we would cross paths. Woodstock 1341 01:46:14,960 --> 01:46:20,200 Speaker 1: has frequent uh, small events that are usually benefits or something, 1342 01:46:20,240 --> 01:46:23,240 Speaker 1: and and it's a kind of a clotch where everybody 1343 01:46:23,240 --> 01:46:26,040 Speaker 1: gets together in place. And I'd end up playing with 1344 01:46:26,200 --> 01:46:32,240 Speaker 1: Arland fairly frequently. And so UH came a day when 1345 01:46:32,479 --> 01:46:37,080 Speaker 1: I had been listening to Arland's c ds that he 1346 01:46:37,120 --> 01:46:45,160 Speaker 1: had cut things like acoustic rolling Stones and uh, instrumental 1347 01:46:45,840 --> 01:46:50,840 Speaker 1: Simon and Garfuncle. Of course, he's completely savvy because he 1348 01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:56,280 Speaker 1: played with both guys together and separately, so he has 1349 01:46:56,360 --> 01:47:01,120 Speaker 1: the background. And he says, so, you ever made one 1350 01:47:01,160 --> 01:47:04,640 Speaker 1: of these kind of records, And I said no, I 1351 01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:10,600 Speaker 1: I was always afraid to touch any of the material. Uh, 1352 01:47:10,640 --> 01:47:16,720 Speaker 1: and he said, well, you know, we'd have half of 1353 01:47:16,760 --> 01:47:23,960 Speaker 1: the arrangements licked. Was how we put it, so Uh 1354 01:47:24,000 --> 01:47:28,160 Speaker 1: that just sort of started it off, mostly in living rooms, 1355 01:47:28,560 --> 01:47:33,640 Speaker 1: and uh we began playing the material. And one of 1356 01:47:33,680 --> 01:47:38,280 Speaker 1: the remarkable parts of it was that his knowledge of 1357 01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:43,960 Speaker 1: Zalmayanovski I really hadn't I really hadn't taken it in, 1358 01:47:44,439 --> 01:47:50,839 Speaker 1: but it provided this wonderful framework, and we just started 1359 01:47:50,880 --> 01:47:57,480 Speaker 1: doing instrumental versions of tunes. Uh. And in some cases 1360 01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:01,680 Speaker 1: they made it in some cases we'd say, now we 1361 01:48:01,760 --> 01:48:05,840 Speaker 1: can't touch the original, and in some cases, uh, it 1362 01:48:05,920 --> 01:48:10,720 Speaker 1: would become an instrumental that then we'd add vocals to 1363 01:48:10,920 --> 01:48:14,240 Speaker 1: and go, hey, it's better with the vocals. Let's let's 1364 01:48:14,320 --> 01:48:18,479 Speaker 1: leave it that way. And suddenly we had the fourteen 1365 01:48:18,560 --> 01:48:23,800 Speaker 1: or fifteen tunes that it took. Now, part of our 1366 01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:27,960 Speaker 1: goal was not to go nuts and put a whole 1367 01:48:27,960 --> 01:48:34,040 Speaker 1: bunch of nonsense on it, because we had been getting 1368 01:48:34,080 --> 01:48:38,160 Speaker 1: this very good vibe of the two of us playing together. 1369 01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:42,759 Speaker 1: Then we go to our separate studios and maybe add 1370 01:48:43,360 --> 01:48:49,479 Speaker 1: one other guy and and that would be the arrangement. Uh. 1371 01:48:49,560 --> 01:48:56,639 Speaker 1: So with that as a framework, UM, we got pretty 1372 01:48:56,640 --> 01:48:58,800 Speaker 1: close to the end. And I had a couple of 1373 01:48:59,000 --> 01:49:03,200 Speaker 1: extra little things in my pocket. One of them was 1374 01:49:03,240 --> 01:49:06,960 Speaker 1: that I could call Maria Muldoor to do a uh, 1375 01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:14,440 Speaker 1: to do a stories we could tell together. And uh, 1376 01:49:16,040 --> 01:49:20,719 Speaker 1: A fairly remarkable thing that had happened, uh starting about 1377 01:49:20,800 --> 01:49:25,280 Speaker 1: five years before we started this project, which was that 1378 01:49:25,360 --> 01:49:27,559 Speaker 1: I got a call, you know, I got an email 1379 01:49:27,640 --> 01:49:32,400 Speaker 1: from a guy who wanted to uh play a little 1380 01:49:32,680 --> 01:49:35,639 Speaker 1: what would we call it? A film of two young 1381 01:49:35,720 --> 01:49:42,240 Speaker 1: women doing daydream one guitar, one ukulele, it was beautiful 1382 01:49:43,080 --> 01:49:45,439 Speaker 1: I and I wrote back and I said, this is 1383 01:49:45,960 --> 01:49:50,200 Speaker 1: sibling harmony. You can't imitate this, and and I really 1384 01:49:50,479 --> 01:49:54,240 Speaker 1: went nuts on this email. The next email comes back 1385 01:49:54,320 --> 01:49:58,639 Speaker 1: from the Mona Lisa twins, who that's who it is, 1386 01:49:59,200 --> 01:50:03,479 Speaker 1: and the twin are saying, oh, we're so happy and 1387 01:50:03,640 --> 01:50:07,800 Speaker 1: could you maybe uh be on our album? And I said, 1388 01:50:07,800 --> 01:50:13,960 Speaker 1: of course they're there. Uh uh they're they're just uh 1389 01:50:14,880 --> 01:50:24,000 Speaker 1: remarkable little Austrian people and played and sang and I 1390 01:50:24,280 --> 01:50:30,200 Speaker 1: ended up for in two different occasions playing harmonica on 1391 01:50:30,479 --> 01:50:35,880 Speaker 1: their records. And then they started a record where they 1392 01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:39,880 Speaker 1: were doing their own tunes. This was a first for them, 1393 01:50:40,520 --> 01:50:44,000 Speaker 1: and they called me in on that and this is 1394 01:50:44,040 --> 01:50:48,800 Speaker 1: all by remote control. I'm working from Woodstock and they're 1395 01:50:48,840 --> 01:50:58,160 Speaker 1: in uh they're in England. So another half a year 1396 01:50:58,280 --> 01:51:02,360 Speaker 1: or so go by may call again and say, now 1397 01:51:02,479 --> 01:51:04,960 Speaker 1: we have trouble figuring out how we're going to do 1398 01:51:05,040 --> 01:51:10,559 Speaker 1: a video without you. Would you come to England and 1399 01:51:10,920 --> 01:51:15,320 Speaker 1: do a video with us? So I end up on 1400 01:51:15,360 --> 01:51:20,000 Speaker 1: a Icelandic flight to Manchester and we end up in 1401 01:51:20,000 --> 01:51:23,519 Speaker 1: this three hundred year old bar doing a very cool 1402 01:51:23,560 --> 01:51:25,920 Speaker 1: By the way, if you get a chance, go look 1403 01:51:26,120 --> 01:51:31,360 Speaker 1: Mona Lisa Twins. Uh. Waiting for the Waiter is the 1404 01:51:31,400 --> 01:51:34,000 Speaker 1: title of the tune. But they had me kind of 1405 01:51:34,040 --> 01:51:38,240 Speaker 1: be a like a kind of a bad guy or something. 1406 01:51:38,960 --> 01:51:43,120 Speaker 1: Uh and and it was lovely fun and uh so 1407 01:51:43,160 --> 01:51:45,000 Speaker 1: then they were all ready to pay me, and I 1408 01:51:45,040 --> 01:51:47,760 Speaker 1: said no, no, no, no, wait, I said, I don't 1409 01:51:47,800 --> 01:51:50,559 Speaker 1: know what I'm doing next, but whatever it is, I'm 1410 01:51:50,560 --> 01:51:54,439 Speaker 1: going to draft you guys to do background harmonies. And 1411 01:51:54,600 --> 01:51:58,080 Speaker 1: so that was the agreement. And so so it is 1412 01:51:58,240 --> 01:52:04,519 Speaker 1: that on several two I sent Arlen and my work 1413 01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:08,439 Speaker 1: off to Manchester by now I think it was Wales. 1414 01:52:08,560 --> 01:52:14,360 Speaker 1: They they're they're a moving group. They uh and uh 1415 01:52:14,520 --> 01:52:19,639 Speaker 1: they uh and it was a wonderful uh experience. They 1416 01:52:20,520 --> 01:52:24,400 Speaker 1: you know, I'm still in touch and uh, I'm sure 1417 01:52:24,439 --> 01:52:28,800 Speaker 1: we'll do something else. Okay. It's fascinating to me that 1418 01:52:28,960 --> 01:52:33,559 Speaker 1: both Maria and Jeff Muldaur on the album they've been divorced. 1419 01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:37,599 Speaker 1: I know. I consider it one of my great great 1420 01:52:37,720 --> 01:52:42,160 Speaker 1: victories as the because I'm I'm the younger brother here, 1421 01:52:42,960 --> 01:52:46,360 Speaker 1: maybe not so much for Maria. Were about the same age, 1422 01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:49,640 Speaker 1: but Jeff's kind of you know, he was in the 1423 01:52:49,720 --> 01:52:53,120 Speaker 1: real jug band and there were things about him I 1424 01:52:53,200 --> 01:52:57,679 Speaker 1: was blatantly imitating him on day dream, you know, trying 1425 01:52:57,720 --> 01:53:01,040 Speaker 1: to get that honk that he has in his voice, 1426 01:53:01,080 --> 01:53:06,320 Speaker 1: and and so uh and I think I called him first. 1427 01:53:07,040 --> 01:53:10,519 Speaker 1: And then it's just because he was living in the 1428 01:53:10,600 --> 01:53:15,599 Speaker 1: adjoining town at the time. And very shortly thereafter, Maria, 1429 01:53:16,040 --> 01:53:21,479 Speaker 1: who makes periodic trips to Woodstock, was nearby, and I said, hey, 1430 01:53:21,479 --> 01:53:24,960 Speaker 1: come on over to Chris Anderson's studio and let's get 1431 01:53:25,000 --> 01:53:29,040 Speaker 1: this thing where you sing, uh, you know with me 1432 01:53:29,120 --> 01:53:33,160 Speaker 1: on stories we could tell so uh so it did. 1433 01:53:33,479 --> 01:53:36,400 Speaker 1: They weren't in the studio at the same moment, but 1434 01:53:36,560 --> 01:53:40,720 Speaker 1: they can be. Uh that era of where they were 1435 01:53:40,760 --> 01:53:44,439 Speaker 1: still angry at each other, I actually was. I lived 1436 01:53:44,439 --> 01:53:48,080 Speaker 1: through that, and you know, it was made me very 1437 01:53:48,120 --> 01:53:51,320 Speaker 1: sad for a couple of years. But they they have 1438 01:53:51,560 --> 01:53:56,160 Speaker 1: managed to to get past that and and enjoy each 1439 01:53:56,200 --> 01:53:59,719 Speaker 1: other's company and laugh at each other's voibles. And yeah, 1440 01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:05,880 Speaker 1: it's so that it had become nice. Okay, a couple 1441 01:54:05,880 --> 01:54:08,360 Speaker 1: of things wrapping up. How do you how do you 1442 01:54:08,400 --> 01:54:11,960 Speaker 1: write songs? Do you wait for inspiration or do you 1443 01:54:12,040 --> 01:54:14,720 Speaker 1: literally sit down like with a puzzle. How do you 1444 01:54:14,800 --> 01:54:19,120 Speaker 1: do it? Well? The puzzle part usually comes after a 1445 01:54:19,200 --> 01:54:24,720 Speaker 1: good idea because you know, very often it will be 1446 01:54:24,840 --> 01:54:30,519 Speaker 1: something as simple as a title or a chord sequence, uh, 1447 01:54:30,560 --> 01:54:34,040 Speaker 1: And maybe the chord sequence makes you feel a certain way, 1448 01:54:34,440 --> 01:54:36,720 Speaker 1: and so you might get a line or two out 1449 01:54:36,720 --> 01:54:42,080 Speaker 1: of that, or your circumstances that you're living in might 1450 01:54:42,240 --> 01:54:48,680 Speaker 1: give you an idea. So it just that's that's the 1451 01:54:48,720 --> 01:54:54,440 Speaker 1: way it it happens. Okay, a lot of these hits 1452 01:54:54,440 --> 01:54:57,680 Speaker 1: were in the sixties, which were over fifty years. Did 1453 01:54:57,720 --> 01:55:00,720 Speaker 1: you do this ever affect you financially or been okay? 1454 01:55:00,800 --> 01:55:04,840 Speaker 1: For these fifty years, I've had periods where I was 1455 01:55:04,880 --> 01:55:09,280 Speaker 1: struggling a little bit, uh, you know, by making jokes 1456 01:55:09,280 --> 01:55:14,040 Speaker 1: about being wildly unpopular in the nineties, and so I 1457 01:55:14,160 --> 01:55:17,320 Speaker 1: kind of went sideways, hooked up with a bunch of 1458 01:55:17,640 --> 01:55:21,839 Speaker 1: guys and made a jug band and sort of turned 1459 01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:25,400 Speaker 1: my fortunes around because I wasn't making money, but I 1460 01:55:25,440 --> 01:55:29,600 Speaker 1: was having so much fun playing with Jimmy Vivino and 1461 01:55:29,720 --> 01:55:35,040 Speaker 1: James Wormworth and Fritz Richmond and oh Man, Paul Rochelle 1462 01:55:35,040 --> 01:55:38,080 Speaker 1: and Annie Rains. I got to really play with some 1463 01:55:38,240 --> 01:55:43,720 Speaker 1: remarkable folks, and in fact, this very jug band, unfortunately, 1464 01:55:43,720 --> 01:55:46,120 Speaker 1: except for Fritz, who isn't with us, is going to 1465 01:55:46,320 --> 01:55:50,760 Speaker 1: reunite in uh month or two and UH have a 1466 01:55:50,800 --> 01:55:54,400 Speaker 1: little a little play at the Bearsville Theater. Wow, that's 1467 01:55:54,520 --> 01:55:57,840 Speaker 1: very cool. Now you're an upbeat guy, I'm talking to you. 1468 01:55:58,600 --> 01:56:01,720 Speaker 1: But you've lived a long on time. Have you always 1469 01:56:01,720 --> 01:56:04,440 Speaker 1: been an upbeat guy? Or you're prone to depression? What's 1470 01:56:04,480 --> 01:56:09,920 Speaker 1: your mood like? Um? I I think, uh, I probably 1471 01:56:10,080 --> 01:56:15,200 Speaker 1: am a pretty upbeat guy, but I can get taken down. 1472 01:56:16,160 --> 01:56:19,640 Speaker 1: You know, there are times that that in my life 1473 01:56:19,680 --> 01:56:24,640 Speaker 1: that have been really depressing. Where you know, Rolling Stone 1474 01:56:24,720 --> 01:56:29,800 Speaker 1: and the whole of the whole world of of reporters 1475 01:56:30,400 --> 01:56:34,480 Speaker 1: had a kind of a miss fire on what had 1476 01:56:34,560 --> 01:56:40,000 Speaker 1: happened with zol and Stephen and yeah, okay, so now 1477 01:56:40,040 --> 01:56:45,720 Speaker 1: they were finks, but everybody piled on two that to 1478 01:56:45,920 --> 01:56:50,080 Speaker 1: that uh, and it was virtue signaling. Half of these 1479 01:56:50,160 --> 01:56:54,800 Speaker 1: reporters were so anxious to alive themselves with the pot 1480 01:56:54,880 --> 01:56:58,800 Speaker 1: smokers and not the guys who busted the guy. But 1481 01:56:59,120 --> 01:57:02,320 Speaker 1: what they know, what he reported was the amount of 1482 01:57:02,520 --> 01:57:07,600 Speaker 1: effort that the band and the whole team put into 1483 01:57:08,240 --> 01:57:12,600 Speaker 1: getting this guy freed. And I won't go into it 1484 01:57:12,680 --> 01:57:16,560 Speaker 1: too elaborately, but unfortunately the guy wanted to have his 1485 01:57:16,600 --> 01:57:20,400 Speaker 1: own lawyer who wanted to make pot legal in nineteen sixties, 1486 01:57:20,400 --> 01:57:24,360 Speaker 1: six or whenever it was. And uh so, uh he 1487 01:57:24,640 --> 01:57:28,480 Speaker 1: he Actually I think he served some time and it 1488 01:57:28,560 --> 01:57:35,640 Speaker 1: was gruesome. And uh this is a selfish me. But 1489 01:57:35,920 --> 01:57:39,360 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be associated with this. I was 1490 01:57:40,080 --> 01:57:44,960 Speaker 1: not in I wasn't even in the town. Understand, this 1491 01:57:45,040 --> 01:57:49,400 Speaker 1: happened in San Francisco. I was in Los Los Angeles. 1492 01:57:49,960 --> 01:57:53,280 Speaker 1: So if you want to look for a depressing era 1493 01:57:53,480 --> 01:57:58,040 Speaker 1: for me, that was it because there was no there 1494 01:57:58,080 --> 01:58:01,680 Speaker 1: was no explaining it just it looked bad, no matter 1495 01:58:02,200 --> 01:58:05,320 Speaker 1: what attempt you made to explain. And it didn't help 1496 01:58:05,800 --> 01:58:08,600 Speaker 1: that there was all of this what I described in 1497 01:58:08,680 --> 01:58:13,760 Speaker 1: modern times as virtue signaling. So many reporters were so 1498 01:58:13,840 --> 01:58:19,760 Speaker 1: anxious to vilify us and make sure that everybody knew 1499 01:58:19,800 --> 01:58:23,480 Speaker 1: that they, the reporter, were the cool guys. So that 1500 01:58:23,560 --> 01:58:27,680 Speaker 1: was painful. Okay, are you a social guy? You're living 1501 01:58:27,720 --> 01:58:30,480 Speaker 1: in Woodstock, relatively small town. I know when I've lived 1502 01:58:30,480 --> 01:58:33,240 Speaker 1: in small towns tend to know more people than the city. 1503 01:58:33,360 --> 01:58:36,760 Speaker 1: Do you connect with people from your generation, the music, 1504 01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:40,760 Speaker 1: other famous musicians, what's your life like? Well, I am 1505 01:58:40,960 --> 01:58:44,960 Speaker 1: very lucky in that regard because there are wonderful venues 1506 01:58:45,000 --> 01:58:50,080 Speaker 1: and wonderful musicians in my town, and I do socialize 1507 01:58:50,160 --> 01:58:53,400 Speaker 1: with them when possible. Now we have to kind of 1508 01:58:53,960 --> 01:58:56,680 Speaker 1: x out a year and a half here because nobody 1509 01:58:56,720 --> 01:59:02,920 Speaker 1: was allowed to do anything. But no, uh, we were managing. 1510 01:59:03,600 --> 01:59:06,480 Speaker 1: I was wearing a mask and going over to Larry 1511 01:59:06,520 --> 01:59:10,880 Speaker 1: Campbell's house and he had COVID and I was bringing 1512 01:59:10,920 --> 01:59:16,680 Speaker 1: him chicken soup. There were there were funny things happening. 1513 01:59:17,240 --> 01:59:20,800 Speaker 1: Me and Happy Troum playing at twenty five ft away 1514 01:59:21,080 --> 01:59:23,839 Speaker 1: because we just said, I can't stand it not playing 1515 01:59:23,880 --> 01:59:27,840 Speaker 1: with anybody, and we did get together and just have 1516 01:59:28,000 --> 01:59:33,520 Speaker 1: a fun little little plate. Uh. Okay. You know, a 1517 01:59:33,600 --> 01:59:36,440 Speaker 1: lot of years have gone by, You're at an elder 1518 01:59:36,480 --> 01:59:40,320 Speaker 1: age and a lot of this has been written. Are 1519 01:59:40,360 --> 01:59:43,720 Speaker 1: you comfortable with what's happened? What would you like? Were 1520 01:59:43,720 --> 01:59:45,600 Speaker 1: you wish you had another chance? You don't get a 1521 01:59:45,680 --> 01:59:49,000 Speaker 1: chance to do over in life. But you know, looking 1522 01:59:49,080 --> 01:59:52,400 Speaker 1: back at this age, how do you feel about all 1523 01:59:52,440 --> 01:59:57,960 Speaker 1: of it? I was a very lucky guy, and I 1524 01:59:58,080 --> 02:00:02,200 Speaker 1: had a lot of fun, and there was involved in 1525 02:00:02,320 --> 02:00:05,760 Speaker 1: that fun a certain amount of tears and a certain 1526 02:00:05,800 --> 02:00:09,520 Speaker 1: amount of pain, but it was all part of the package. 1527 02:00:10,040 --> 02:00:14,800 Speaker 1: And you couldn't extract one from the other. Okay. And 1528 02:00:14,800 --> 02:00:16,720 Speaker 1: in the time you have left, which could be a 1529 02:00:16,720 --> 02:00:21,080 Speaker 1: minute or could be twenty years, for thirty years, anything 1530 02:00:21,200 --> 02:00:24,680 Speaker 1: that you still want to do, want to accomplish, you know. 1531 02:00:24,960 --> 02:00:28,400 Speaker 1: I just still enjoyed the same stuff I always did, 1532 02:00:28,480 --> 02:00:35,840 Speaker 1: which is playing with other musicians, learning material that I 1533 02:00:35,920 --> 02:00:42,120 Speaker 1: didn't know, Uh, finding out details of jug band tunes. 1534 02:00:42,240 --> 02:00:45,840 Speaker 1: I've played for fifty years and suddenly I'm finding out, 1535 02:00:46,040 --> 02:00:50,000 Speaker 1: oh that's that was a box factory outside of Memphis 1536 02:00:50,240 --> 02:00:53,320 Speaker 1: they're talking about, or you know, things like that, little 1537 02:00:53,360 --> 02:00:57,400 Speaker 1: details that that's what's fun. Okay. And you play the 1538 02:00:57,400 --> 02:01:00,760 Speaker 1: guitar every day, Uh No, I don't think I do 1539 02:01:00,880 --> 02:01:06,600 Speaker 1: play every day. I end up uh maybe every third day. Uh. 1540 02:01:07,000 --> 02:01:11,240 Speaker 1: You know, I've it's kind of I I get favorite 1541 02:01:11,320 --> 02:01:15,440 Speaker 1: guitars and so then I'm kind of concentrating on that 1542 02:01:15,520 --> 02:01:21,400 Speaker 1: instrument a little bit more so, you know, it's it's ongoing. 1543 02:01:22,000 --> 02:01:26,760 Speaker 1: But I am I'm not a player unless there's another 1544 02:01:26,880 --> 02:01:30,240 Speaker 1: player or an audience. I'm not a guy who played 1545 02:01:30,360 --> 02:01:34,640 Speaker 1: or you know, my grandchildren. Fine, you know, I'll play 1546 02:01:34,680 --> 02:01:38,960 Speaker 1: all day. Uh, but it it it does need to 1547 02:01:39,040 --> 02:01:43,080 Speaker 1: be something I think by myself I'm I'm more or 1548 02:01:43,200 --> 02:01:48,280 Speaker 1: less maybe I'll get some crazy idea and and see 1549 02:01:48,320 --> 02:01:51,720 Speaker 1: if I can develop it a little bit. So all 1550 02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:55,400 Speaker 1: day you read, you watch TV, you're in front of 1551 02:01:55,400 --> 02:01:58,680 Speaker 1: the computer. What's your average day looking like? Well, you know, 1552 02:01:59,440 --> 02:02:02,880 Speaker 1: a dog walking saves me from just sitting in front 1553 02:02:02,880 --> 02:02:06,360 Speaker 1: of a computer all day, and that that's a big thing. 1554 02:02:06,760 --> 02:02:10,280 Speaker 1: But also, you know, I have I have nearby friends 1555 02:02:10,320 --> 02:02:16,760 Speaker 1: like Happy Troum and Cindy cash Dollar and uh several Luthier's, 1556 02:02:16,800 --> 02:02:21,360 Speaker 1: Harvey Citron and Joe Vayette who are really important friends 1557 02:02:21,400 --> 02:02:25,560 Speaker 1: to me and I really enjoy, you know, an occasional 1558 02:02:25,880 --> 02:02:30,320 Speaker 1: meal where we go out and and take life in 1559 02:02:30,360 --> 02:02:35,200 Speaker 1: hand and go to a restaurant. Uh, you know, it's 1560 02:02:35,280 --> 02:02:41,480 Speaker 1: it's pretty pretty normal stuff. Yeah, any significant other, any romance, 1561 02:02:42,680 --> 02:02:47,440 Speaker 1: I have, the same romance I had in and Catherine 1562 02:02:47,440 --> 02:02:54,400 Speaker 1: Sebastian has been a remarkable creature and uh and still 1563 02:02:54,440 --> 02:02:58,520 Speaker 1: a hottie. So well, what are you gonna do? Hey, listen, 1564 02:02:58,520 --> 02:03:01,880 Speaker 1: it's all good, John, This is fantastic. You know, I 1565 02:03:01,880 --> 02:03:04,200 Speaker 1: think we got some of the history that people don't know. 1566 02:03:04,760 --> 02:03:08,080 Speaker 1: We still would need to delve more into your success 1567 02:03:08,120 --> 02:03:11,280 Speaker 1: in the sixties and what you've been doing for from 1568 02:03:11,320 --> 02:03:15,200 Speaker 1: the seventies until this new album. But I think we've 1569 02:03:15,240 --> 02:03:16,720 Speaker 1: come to the end of the feeling we've known. I 1570 02:03:16,760 --> 02:03:19,400 Speaker 1: think there's only so much time. So I want to 1571 02:03:19,480 --> 02:03:21,000 Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing this. This is a 1572 02:03:21,080 --> 02:03:24,040 Speaker 1: thrill for me because you know, it's funny talking to 1573 02:03:24,120 --> 02:03:27,400 Speaker 1: you and you're saying, oh, you know we were doing it. 1574 02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:30,200 Speaker 1: You know, we were living in Greenwich Village. Everybody knew 1575 02:03:30,200 --> 02:03:33,240 Speaker 1: each other. The gigs weren't that big. I don't think 1576 02:03:33,320 --> 02:03:37,720 Speaker 1: you have an idea how iconic these songs are. Like 1577 02:03:37,840 --> 02:03:40,680 Speaker 1: maybe some are in the city because it's constantly used, 1578 02:03:41,280 --> 02:03:43,240 Speaker 1: and they are like you talked about the Spoonful. You 1579 02:03:43,240 --> 02:03:46,680 Speaker 1: talk about doing things unique. Okay, No, they did not 1580 02:03:46,800 --> 02:03:50,400 Speaker 1: seem repetitious. And I cannot sit here and say, oh, 1581 02:03:50,520 --> 02:03:54,960 Speaker 1: this is like the Spoonful. It's its own vertical and 1582 02:03:55,040 --> 02:03:57,800 Speaker 1: therefore it stands alone. It's not like, oh, it's part 1583 02:03:57,800 --> 02:04:01,760 Speaker 1: of the British invasion whatever. And you know therefore I 1584 02:04:01,800 --> 02:04:05,480 Speaker 1: was dying to talk to I mean, this stuff is iconic, Robert. 1585 02:04:05,720 --> 02:04:10,480 Speaker 1: I love it when you say it. Can I tell you? Okay? 1586 02:04:10,480 --> 02:04:13,920 Speaker 1: In any event, until next time, this is Bob left 1587 02:04:13,960 --> 02:04:14,280 Speaker 1: Sex