1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 2: From usaid cuts to expensive tariffs, twenty twenty five has 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 2: been a year of geopolitical change for Africa. 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 3: Tariffs give our country protection against those that would do 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 3: US economic harm and many people were looking to do 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 3: US economic arm. But even more importantly, they will give 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 3: us growth. These terriffs are going to give us growth 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 3: like you haven't seen before, and it'll be something very special. 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: And a South Africa hands over its presidency of the 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 2: G twenty, what will the world pay attention to in 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: twenty twenty six? 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: The greatest opportunity for prosperity in the twenty first century 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: lies in Africa. Harnessing that opportunity will require a rather 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: strong partnership between Africa and the G twenty and in 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: da between Africa and the rest of the world. 16 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 2: On this episode of The Next Africa Podcast, we'll look 17 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 2: at the big moments of the year on the continent 18 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 2: and what potentially is on the horizon in twenty twenty six. 19 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer's Abasaga and this is the Next Africa Podcast, 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 2: bringing you one story each week from the continent driving 21 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 2: the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg 22 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 2: can provide. Joining me for this week's special episode to 23 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: close out the year is our Bloomberg opinion columnist that 24 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 2: is Justice, Malala Justice. It's been a while. It's so 25 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: nice to have you back on the podcast. It's been 26 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: quite a year and there's a lot to unpack, but 27 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 2: maybe we just start with what feels like it's been 28 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 2: for quite some time, almost a year of the Trump administration. 29 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: We've been trying to dissect really what the overall impact 30 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: of some of the policies and the rhetoric that we've 31 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 2: seen from the Trump administration has been on Africa. What 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: to say has stood out to you? 33 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 4: The first thing I would say is that the continent 34 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 4: hasn't had as much attention from an administration in a 35 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 4: negative sense, sadly, in decades. What you've seen is I 36 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 4: think the total revolution of this relationship. I think it's 37 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 4: totally upended. I think it's changed the world that we 38 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 4: operate in. I think whether you're in business, whether you're 39 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 4: in politics, whether you're in civil society, the arrival of 40 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 4: Donald Trump on January twenty has been a massive, massive 41 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 4: game changer on this continent, A game changer in the 42 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 4: way Africa will have to respond the way it's been 43 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 4: forced to respond. I think the way we do business 44 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 4: on the continent in essence, I think business as usual 45 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 4: is not the name of the game any longer, and 46 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 4: so we're going to find ourselves having to redefine the 47 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 4: way we do things, everything from aid to trade. If 48 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 4: you're a South African farmer and you've been enjoying the 49 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 4: lagez of a goa and duty free access to the 50 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 4: US market, you're asking yourself today, well, maybe there's been 51 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 4: a movement on beef and no tariffs there, but you 52 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 4: know what about my citrus fruit and so forth and 53 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 4: so forth. So I think it's a total revolution. 54 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: We have seen this year. Also the effects of what 55 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: engagement in some ways can go wrong or right right. 56 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: If we take a look at President Ramoposa and his 57 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 2: visit to the White House and the back and forth 58 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: really that we've seen between South Africa and the US, 59 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 2: A big question I have for you is, well, how 60 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: you think that relationship maybe will play out, because it 61 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: seems like President Ramoposa hosted a successful despite the US 62 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: not being there, and it seems like his pushing back 63 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: is getting in some ways a vote of approval domestically. 64 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: Do you think that relationship potentially repairs itself in twenty 65 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: twenty six or you know, what does that pretend if 66 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: you look into your crystal wall? 67 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 4: Jen I sadly, I think that are to two countries 68 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 4: on the continent that will be a focus of the 69 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 4: Trump administration, South Africa and Nigeria. We've already had President 70 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 4: Trump saying that in the case of Nigeria, he will 71 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 4: he's thinking of sending in the army, guns are blazing 72 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 4: to deal with the violence in the north that she had, 73 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 4: this violence that has broken out there, and he claims 74 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,559 Speaker 4: that it's violence against Christians, which many observe us, many 75 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 4: researchers in Nigeria have said, actually, it's across the board. 76 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 4: People are dying, people are being killed. In the case 77 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 4: of South Africa, I think it's even worse. I think 78 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 4: South Africa is going to take a real beating, if 79 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 4: you will, from the United States. The key thing now 80 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 4: is to consider what the impact of that will be 81 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 4: on the South African side. I think the Trump administration 82 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 4: may be angered by the fact that South Africa is 83 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 4: talking about this what it caused a butterfly strategy, and 84 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 4: by that I mean that they diversifying the trade opportunities 85 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 4: that it has, and so looking towards China, looking towards Russia, 86 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 4: looking towards Asia. The EU has been very supportive of 87 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 4: South Africa, and that may be seen as belligerents maybe 88 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 4: whatever it may be seen as. I think those parts 89 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 4: and that Gulf will widen. 90 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: And just to stick with us, we're going to take 91 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 2: a quick break, but when we come back, we'll look 92 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 2: at some of the other big moments of the year 93 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 2: and also look ahead to twenty twenty six. We'll be 94 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: right back. Welcome back today on the podcast, we're taking 95 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: a look back at twenty twenty five. Bloomberg Opinion columnist 96 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 2: Justice Malala is joining us. So, Justice, we have been 97 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 2: talking about the Americas and potentially some of the relationships 98 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: that we had seen there. Let's shift to what we 99 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: are seeing in East Africa, and in particular, I want 100 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: to point out a column that you wrote which really 101 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: in many ways was crystallized by a lot of the 102 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: elections we saw this year, which is your column is 103 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 2: light of democracy is dimming across East Africa, and I 104 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 2: just want to ask you what change in twenty twenty 105 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: five you think, and it's not just East Africa. We 106 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 2: saw quite a few elections this year where gen Z 107 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: we're speaking out and we're hoping for change, and that 108 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 2: didn't really come to light. What stood out to you. 109 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that question because it's also got two 110 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 4: pounds to it. The second part is what I really like, 111 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 4: and it's that young people all over this continent. If 112 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 4: you think about Kenya, you think about what happened in 113 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 4: Madagascar where there was actually a change in government, and 114 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 4: we can we'll talk about that perhaps a little bit more, 115 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 4: but for me, it's young people actually engaging in politics 116 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 4: using the tools of today. These young people are not 117 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 4: I think I'm tech savvy, but I use WhatsApp, They're 118 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 4: using gaming, messaging apps, They're using all kinds of not 119 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 4: really fantastic ways of organizing over and beyond my WhatsApp group. 120 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 4: I love that they're doing it, still doing it in Togo. 121 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 4: You know, if you go back to Mozambi and the 122 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 4: post election protests there in twenty twenty four November, you know, 123 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 4: it's similar, similar ways of doing things Moroco and so 124 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 4: I'm enthused by the fact that we all talk about 125 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 4: the youth dividend of this continent and the youth is 126 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 4: the future. For me, this is the fantastic thing that 127 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 4: young people that are engaged, are concerned about cost of living, 128 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 4: are consent about the state of democracy, repression and so forth. 129 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 4: I'm positive. I'm positive about that outcome. I think that 130 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 4: it's a plus for the continent that this is happening 131 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 4: and for democracy and its entrenchment and survival. On the 132 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 4: other hand, as you point out, you know what has 133 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 4: happened in East Africa where for those of us who 134 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 4: believe in democracy, in the values of democratic constitutions, it 135 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 4: was very sad to see a country as stable as Tanzania, 136 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 4: a country that has espoused democratic values, a country led 137 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 4: by a woman who, when coming to power five years 138 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 4: ago said I will continue these building blocks and I 139 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 4: will carry the light of democracy forward. To see so 140 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 4: many people and particularly young people being harassed, arrested, detained 141 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 4: without trial and then killed in the numbers that have 142 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 4: been documented again and again over so long, and finally 143 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 4: to a result that is just not credible that in 144 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 4: that election ninety eight percent of the vote went to 145 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 4: the building party and to the president. Is it's sad, 146 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 4: but even what's more, even more said, is that it's 147 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 4: not the only place where this is happening. In January 148 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 4: on the fifteenth, I think, Uganda goes to elections and 149 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 4: all the things we've spoken about that light dimming are 150 00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 4: playing out once again in Uganda. The may position leader 151 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 4: a young guy called Bobby Wine, musician who's very charismatic, 152 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 4: and I'm not saying he should win, he should be 153 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 4: allowed to run, but he described it as running for 154 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 4: office in Uganda right now is like being in a 155 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 4: war zone and you stop and say, what does that mean? 156 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 4: What that means is that the incumbent has been in power, 157 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 4: has been in office for forty years, since nineteen eighty six. 158 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 4: He's eighty one, I think. And Bobby Wene's bodyguard was 159 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 4: abducted by the son of the president, who's the head 160 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 4: of the army, who then boasts publicly that oh, I've 161 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 4: got jan and I've been torturing her at my in 162 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 4: the basement of my house. And the saddest of all 163 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 4: these things is that the African Union, which should be 164 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 4: standing up for these values, is nowhere to be seen. 165 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 4: You can count the ways baking of far So Ivery Coast, 166 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 4: Cameroon you know, all these leaders who should have been 167 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 4: shown the door twenty years ago are still around and 168 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 4: perpetuating all these things. So I think that two issues. 169 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 4: And I don't want to blame the United States for 170 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 4: all of Africa's problems, but part of it is that 171 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 4: the pivot of the USA from demanding democratic performance, whether 172 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 4: it's in the granting of aid or to cooperation or 173 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 4: to investment, is one factor. I think if you can 174 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 4: get away with being an undemocratic leader and still know 175 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 4: that there will be no sanction from the most powerful 176 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 4: democracy in the world, that opens the door for bad 177 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 4: actors on the continent to step forward and say, oh, 178 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 4: do it and there will be no consequence. But the 179 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 4: biggest problem is the African Union. It's African structures that 180 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 4: need to speak up and other African leaders saying we 181 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 4: cannot allow this to be happening in Uganda. But in 182 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 4: Uganda today because if you go back to what you've 183 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 4: spoken about, and that's Tanzania, in the run up to 184 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 4: that election, opposition leaders were arrested, detained without trial, without 185 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 4: due process and did not participate in that election. And 186 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 4: what's happened to Tanzania, it's hunky dory. So if it 187 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 4: can happen in Tanzania, then it can happen in Uganda 188 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 4: there will be no consequence, And it can happen elsewhere 189 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,479 Speaker 4: where there's an election and there will be no consequence. 190 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 4: And so everyone looks around and says, well, I'm it's 191 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 4: all good. So I think that's a backsliding And that 192 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 4: is said for a continent that so much needs democratic 193 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 4: norms openness to succeed, to turn our economies around, and 194 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 4: those economies will not thrive. They'll continue to be economies 195 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 4: dominated by a political class that bleaches off people. Quite frankly, justice. 196 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: Before we let you go, because we could speak for 197 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: so long, you mentioned one of the key events that 198 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 2: I know I'll be watching and reporting on closely at 199 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: the beginning of twenty twenty six, which is the Ugandan election. 200 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: But what else are you looking forward to in twenty 201 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 2: twenty six? 202 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 4: Look, I think there's a lot of resetting that I'll 203 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 4: be looking out for. I think the collapse of aid 204 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 4: from the United States. I think we need to look 205 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 4: at it in a way that's not just the US 206 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 4: pulling back on USAID and all its commitment, but it's 207 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 4: also the fact that the UK, Denmark, Jeminy, some of 208 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 4: the biggest donuts to Africa have also cut back, some 209 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 4: as up to forty percent. So there'll be an impact, 210 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 4: and I think what that impact is and what it 211 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 4: looks like would be interesting. I'm excited about business, and 212 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 4: I think with all the doom and drewm and what 213 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 4: we've spoken about, if you look at growth, say in 214 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 4: South America, I think the Well Bank IMF put it 215 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 4: at about two and a half two point six percent. 216 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 4: On this continent, it veers between four point four point 217 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 4: four four point five percent. I think that is good, 218 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 4: and I think the continent can do even better. How 219 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 4: we do it will be interesting, and whether it's the 220 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 4: kind of innovation in some of your sessions at the 221 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 4: G twenty and I was very interested in the huge 222 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 4: amount of US business and other business that came to 223 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 4: South Africa. How that's handled I'm amazed by. I have 224 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 4: two daughters who are playing around with bank accounts and 225 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 4: so forth. But how fintech evolves on this continent. It's 226 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 4: moving so fast that payments, the way payments are done 227 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 4: is so complex compared to how I'd use a check 228 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 4: in Dumbo in New York and so forth. So it's 229 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 4: fascinating for me just how that leap is happening via 230 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 4: mobile phone and so forth. I think Africa's push or 231 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 4: response to American policy will be interesting, and how South 232 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 4: Africa particularly response will be interesting. I think Kenya is 233 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 4: a very interesting country to look at. I think it's 234 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 4: been let's say, on the fintech stuff, it's been such 235 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 4: a leader, and yet on the other hand, there's issues 236 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 4: around it's that which is huge. How it manages the 237 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 4: budget process in twenty twenty six, which has been interesting 238 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 4: over the past four years because that has been a 239 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 4: trigger for the gen Z protests that we've seen there. 240 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 4: So I think as an example, as a little study 241 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 4: of where the continent is going. In many ways, I 242 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 4: think Kenya will be will continue to be interesting. Has 243 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 4: always been an interesting, fascinating, lovely country, but I think 244 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 4: twenty twenty six will test all those bits and pieces 245 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 4: of what it is. Yeah, I think that on the 246 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 4: economic front, I think leaders could use the opportunities that 247 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 4: come with some of the negatives that might have emerged 248 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 4: from the United States, and I think it will be 249 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 4: fascinating to chronicle to follow those to see where the. 250 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: Leaders justice It's always great to speak with you. Thank 251 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: you so much for your time. It's been quite a year. 252 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 2: I hope you have some time, and don't forget you 253 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 2: can always follow along with all of our reporting across 254 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 2: Bloomberg platforms, including in our next African newsletter. We will 255 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 2: of course put a link to that in the show notes, 256 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 2: and that is where we leave it for twenty twenty five. 257 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: We will be back though in twenty twenty six, so 258 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: please stay tuned. But we appreciate your listening all throughout 259 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 2: the year and hope you also have happy holidays. This 260 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 2: program was produced by Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow 261 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 2: and review this show wherever you usually get your podcasts, 262 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: But for now I'm Jennifer's Appasaja. Thanks as always for listening.