1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie, and this is Bridget and you're 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: listening to stuff. Mom never told you. A couple of 3 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: weeks ago, a coworker of ours, Christopher Hi. Christopher sent 4 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: us an article about splut shaming of journalists in India, 5 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: and it was quite a terrifying read. The article was 6 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: published in The New York Times and was written by 7 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: Indian journalists Rana Ayub. In twenty sixteen, she published a 8 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: book about her findings doing her eight months of undercover research, 9 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: mostly pertaining to the complicity of the current Prime Minister, 10 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: Rinda Modi and the president of the ruling party, m 11 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: ITTs Shaw, and the riots that took place in Gujarat 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: in two thousand and two. A common topic that comes 13 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: up inner journalism is the Prime Minister's side when it 14 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: comes to the violence against minorities and lower cast groups. 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: And she's also critical of her government's Hindu nationalist politics, 16 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: which means she, like several other female journalists in India, 17 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: has become a target of a coornated attack online, one 18 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: that employs sludge shaming and rape threats. Whoever is behind 19 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: the campaign. Prime Minister Modi and a handful of his 20 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: minister's follow on social media, which only gives them more 21 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: power incredibility. That's disgusting. Unfortunately, the sledge shaming of journalists 22 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: is nothing new, but what are you going through? Is 23 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: truly truly horrifying. At first, it was one of the 24 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,639 Speaker 1: mill sludge shaming bs, but it escalated when a tweet 25 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: from a knockoff account of India's biggest right wing television network, 26 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: for Public TV, went viral. Now, this tweet attributed a 27 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: false quote to Ayub claiming that she supported child rapists. 28 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: The tweet was translated into Hindi by the Facebook page 29 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: of Hindu nationalist monk and the chief minister of the 30 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: most popular state in India, which got an even more 31 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: social media attraction. Of course, are you publicly denied ever 32 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: having said anything of the sort. But the damage was done. 33 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: Her inbox, her phone, her social media all funded with 34 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: messages shaming her for this view which had been attributed 35 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: to her, and calling people to gang rape her. Now 36 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: keep in mind she never actually even said this was 37 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: a falsely attributed quote, but it really didn't matter. Members 38 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: of Moody's party didn't delete their tweets affirming the lie either, 39 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: even after she made it clear that it wasn't true 40 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: and that it came from an unreliable source. Yeah, and 41 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: a day later, another photoshop tweet went viral, this one 42 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: reading I hate India and Indians, setting off another onslaught 43 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: of threats and vitriol. And that night. That night, she 44 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: found out that two and a half minute pornographic video 45 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: with her face on another woman's body was circulated over 46 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: What's app, and she was very upset, rightfully so, and 47 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: started looking into the options opened her. She took the 48 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: video to a friend of hers that specializes in tech forensics, 49 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: and he told her it was obviously a fake, one 50 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: probably produced by an app called deep fake. But as 51 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: you can imagine, that was little consolation to her. People 52 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: were taking screenshots of it and posting it in her 53 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: social media feeds. People commented on these screenshots that it 54 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: was clear she was a prostitute. They asked her for 55 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: her rates, men alleging to be Hindu nationalists and unsolicited 56 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 1: nudes to her. Yeah, and it doesn't stop there. Somebody 57 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: used her name to make a Twitter account and dosed her, 58 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: sending out her name, phone number, and address with the 59 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: comment quote, I'm available. After her father got a screenshot 60 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: at this video. This is so sad. He basically told 61 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: her that he wasn't surprised and that he actually was 62 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,119 Speaker 1: surprised it didn't happen sooner because these people are trying 63 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: to break her. Yeah, finding out who's behind this targeted 64 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: campaign is near impossible. But you did notice that most 65 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: of the people who posted the video on social media 66 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: are self identified supporters of Prime Minister Moody, supporters who 67 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: are also behind the idea of a Hindu only India. 68 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: The administrator of a Facebook page that posted the video 69 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: sent her a message reading, Sea Rana, what we spread 70 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: about you. This is what happens when you write lies 71 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: about Modi and Hindus in India. She reported these fake 72 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: accounts to the Cyber Crime Division of the police. And 73 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: this is really like tail as old as time when 74 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 1: it comes to women trying to use sludge shaming into 75 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: silencing us basically just doing our jobs. You see it 76 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: in journalism and politics and sexual assault cases and all 77 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,119 Speaker 1: those me toos. Slug shaming women for speaking up about things. 78 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: Is I mean, it's just what happened. Like I've heard 79 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: so many stories like time and time and time and 80 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: time again that being used as a tool to oppress 81 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: and silence women. Yeah, and an editor and critic of 82 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: Hindu nationalists. And the woman who published as book in 83 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: the Kannada language, she had been murdered a year before 84 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: this incident outside of our home. So this is that's terrifying. 85 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: It really is. We have some numbers about just how 86 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: terrifying it is. But first we're going to pause for 87 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: a quick break for a word from our sponsor, m 88 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: and we're back. Thank you sponsoring. Alright, So, first of all, 89 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: when trying to get a handle of how big a 90 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: problem that this is, three of the top five results 91 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: were a ranking of hotness of female journalists. When I 92 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: was typing in kind of my search results, the auto 93 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: correctly like, how hot does this female journalist? So that's 94 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: a problem right there. The Killing the Messenger Report out 95 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: of the International News Safety Institute saw a disturbing increase 96 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: in the murder of female journalists in general. UNESCO found 97 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: that from two thousand and six to journalists have been 98 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: killed doing their job, one journalist four days for the 99 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: last decade. Over half of those deaths took place in 100 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: countries like India or Mexico, countries not at war. The 101 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: number of female journalists killed as proportionately compared to their 102 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: male counterparts is at its highest percentage in eight years. 103 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: Right now, Wow, that's really scary that, I mean, it 104 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: sickens me. I also think that when we were talking 105 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: about attacks on female journalists worldwide, but I can't help 106 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,679 Speaker 1: but notice the ways that here in the United States, 107 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: It's not like we are in a time period where 108 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: we're showing journalists respect here, you know, we making attacks 109 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: on journalists in tweets, in in the media is a 110 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: common attitude. And I think when you look at these 111 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 1: numbers of how many journalists, how many female journalists have 112 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: been killed just for reporting, it kind of puts those 113 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: kind of things in contexts, right. It kind of kind 114 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: of makes it clear that even joking or implying about 115 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: killing a journalist, like I remember seeing a t shirt 116 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: out of rally that was like tree plus rope plus journalists, right, Yeah, 117 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: you know, mainstreaming these attitudes that attacks on the press 118 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: are okay really becomes a bhorrent When you look at 119 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: these numbers that you just talked about, Yeah, pretty deplorable. 120 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: If we look at India specifically, female journalists are the 121 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: frequent targets of online threats. The Deputy Country Representative of 122 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: You and Women India said the freedom of the press 123 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: is fundamental to a thriving and fully functional democracy. Women 124 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,239 Speaker 1: or men shouldn't have to bear a price for speaking 125 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: up as journalist. It must not be an act of 126 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: bravery for women journalists to speak the truth and represent 127 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: the facts. And after the death of the editor we 128 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, goal Ree Lankesh, someone posted a call for 129 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: the murder of several other female journalists on Facebook. In March, 130 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of journalists protested in Delhi and stage just 131 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: sit in outside of police headquarters after two female journalists 132 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: were assaulted by police at a public university. And as 133 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: a whole, India comes in thirteen on the Global Impunity Index, 134 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: which gauges the unlikelihood that a country will punish the 135 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: murder of journalists. According to the Committee to Protect Journalists 136 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: c JP, World Press Freedom Index is one thirty eight, 137 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: which is below Palestine and Afghanistan. For India wow, and 138 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: the problem is even worse in rural areas of India. 139 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: From sixteen up to seventy journalists were killed in India, 140 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: and most of them near their homes. Of those, seven 141 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: have been officially recognized as murder cases, and none of 142 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: them have seen a conviction. A breakdown of what topics 143 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: these murdered journalists covered show that two topics most dangerous 144 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: to dive into were politics and corruption. Yeah, no surprise there, Yeah, 145 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean, what says no corruption? People who write about 146 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,599 Speaker 1: corruption being murdered? Yeah, nothing says on the up and 147 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: up like that. Nope. And there are so many, so 148 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: many accounts of female journalists in India telling of the 149 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: viol that they faced, the threats, the online harassment, of 150 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: mobs of angry men showing up outside their houses. For 151 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: example of scale, one of female journalists received over two 152 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: thousand abusive phone calls after she moderated a speech. Moderated 153 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: a speech. Most of those phone calls were about her 154 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 1: sex life. Yeah. A report from the International Women's Media 155 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: Foundation found that almost half a female journalist reported experiencing 156 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: sexual harassment at work, and over of those cases went 157 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: unreported and in fact, in after a woman reported that 158 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: the channel head had sexually harassed her, she was fired. 159 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: So again, it just sounds pale as old as times like. 160 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: At this point, it's almost standard operating procedure that if 161 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 1: you're a woman who is sexually harass at work. One, 162 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: because of the climate of fear and you know, retaliation, 163 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: You're probably not going to report because there's not systems 164 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: that will protect you, and if you do end up 165 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: speaking out anyway, you might get fired. And female journalists 166 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: Nahad digs It, who has dealt with more than her 167 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: fair share of harassment, said, when you publish a story, 168 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: the discussion is not about the story, it's about your 169 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: sex life. In my case of the recent Outlook story, 170 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: officiating members of the ruling party were retweeting such tweets. 171 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: A male journalist doesn't face this kind of backlash. He 172 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: is not sexually abused. I just want to pause there 173 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: for a second because this takes me back to our 174 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: video games episode. When I started writing and blogging and 175 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: doing media stuff, I, like most women, got a lot 176 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: of really gross, sexist, racist crap, and people would say, Oh, 177 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: that's just the price you pay for putting yourself out there, 178 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: you know, if you don't like, that's just the name 179 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: of the game. Like, everybody gets criticism, but it's different 180 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: if it's like men who write these things, as she says, 181 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: are not being like the victims of fluck shaming and 182 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: endless chatter about their sex lives and having, you know, 183 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: getting docs that is something specific to women. And so 184 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: I think there's this popular attitude that, hey, if you 185 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: don't want this kind of abuse, don't become a journalist, 186 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: don't become a public media figure. But what they're dealing 187 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: with is not your average every day criticism that you 188 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: could expect when you start speaking publicly on something. It 189 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: is gendered, it is sexist, it is misogynistic, and it's 190 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: gross and it's not okay, and it's different from what 191 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: men are dealing with. Her male counterparts who are writing 192 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: are not dealing with endless chatter about his sex life 193 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: and rape threats. Yeah, and this makes me think of 194 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: two things. One one time, at work, we we used 195 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: to regularly post videos to a YouTube channel called brain Stuff, 196 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: which is still an audio podcast and it's great, but 197 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: we noticed that we had rotating out five main hosts 198 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: and sometimes we brought another host, but we had five 199 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: main hosts and two or women, three or men, and 200 00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: we noticed the comments were very different if the female 201 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: host were doing the video versus the male host. So 202 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: one time, just as like for Kicks, as an experiment, 203 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: we did the exact same video, the exact same script, 204 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: one with the male host, one with the female host, 205 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: and then just compared the comments and lo and behold. 206 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: For the male host it was like, wow, interesting topic. 207 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: I thought that was really informative. And for the female host, 208 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: it was like, I don't like the shade of her lipstick, 209 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: what's going on with her hair, like all this stuff 210 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: that nothing to do with the video. And then another 211 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: thing that this makes me think of that I do 212 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: want to do a video on soon. I'm just not 213 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: sure that there's been a lot of research on it. 214 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: But for a while it was part of most of 215 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: our job requirements here. We had to read and respond 216 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: to every comment, and for women, a lot of times 217 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: those comments are sexually charged or abusive or just not 218 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: fun to read, and we we're curious how that plays 219 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: into like a company's sexual harassment policy, when you're forced 220 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: to deal with kind of these jerks online that are 221 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: harassing you. And at the time, there was no good 222 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: answer because it was still like the wild West of 223 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: the Internet, and there was kind of this, well, if 224 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: you put yourself out there, then that's what happens. So 225 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: I'm I'm interested to see as companies have to face 226 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: this reality that women unfortunately right now have to deal 227 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: with a different set of comments and abuse online. How 228 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: is that going to be taken into account into like 229 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: sexual harassment policies. Well, certainly we should mean, I understand 230 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: that this is a a evolving sort of new thing 231 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: that people are gonna a handle on, but certainly the 232 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: answers should not me to pretend like those discrepancies don't exist, 233 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: because they do. And so I feel like the inclination 234 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: is to be like, oh, well, this is part of 235 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: your job for everybody, but not acknowledging that you know, 236 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: when you're a woman, that part of your job is 237 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: very different than when you're a man. I feel like 238 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: the temptation is to ignore it. But ignoring the problem 239 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 1: doesn't even go away, No, it doesn't. And another female 240 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: Indian journalist, she wrote a story about how she wears 241 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: a fake wedding ring to ward off sexual harassment when 242 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: she's in the field doing a story, and she wasn't 243 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: the only one with this idea. As a reporter working 244 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan, one of the recommendations of the Afghan National 245 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: Union of Journalists is for unmarried women to wear fake 246 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: wedding rings so as to stave off harassment. This is 247 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: an official recommendation, but according to her, it hasn't been 248 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: all of that effective, which is not very surprising. Yeah, 249 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: that was our trick when I was working as a 250 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: server at a restaurant and a hostess. That was our 251 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: That was our trick, like, because you got hit on 252 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: and harass so often. She's right, like, it's not always effective, 253 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: but just saying no, I'm uninterested, thanks is not affective. 254 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: And I almost feel like you your agency as a 255 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: woman is so much less respect. Did then a fictional 256 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: man who's not even there. It's like, oh, there's a 257 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: man in the mix. Okay, Like that's the only thing 258 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: that was like, maybe save it off. But even she's right, 259 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't that effective. But yeah, that was like an 260 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: old server's trick when I was working in a restaurant. 261 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: I've never tried that, but I used to, you know, 262 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: just say I have a boyfriend. And it got to 263 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: the point though where whoever said dude was would say 264 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: like let me see a picture, prove it. And then 265 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: like even if at one point I would like show 266 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: a picture of you know, just a male friend of mine, 267 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: they'd be like, well, I'm hotter than him, right, it 268 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: didn't matter. It didn't matter. Speaking of awful, awful male behavior, 269 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: the four teen conviction of three men of gang raping 270 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: a journalist drew support for the men from the regional party, 271 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: with the leader of the party saying quote, boys make mistakes. 272 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: They should not hang for this. We will change the 273 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: anti rape laws. So they gang raped somebody and they 274 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: were the ones who were getting support from this party. Disgusting. Yeah, 275 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: And even after all of this, women face they are 276 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: frequently dismissed with the question, quote, what journalism can women do? 277 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: This credibility gap between men and women is something we 278 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: see around the world. It is definitely not unique to India, 279 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: but women are putting up with more and having to 280 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: deal with more, and then questions about just how good 281 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: are you at your job? Anyway? Absolutely, And I know 282 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: I go off on this soap box a ton, but 283 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: this is what pisces me off. So we have all 284 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: these questions of our women as good as men? Can 285 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: a woman report as well as a man? Like that's 286 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: if you're a journalist, I'm sure that you've heard these conversations. Women. 287 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: Not only are they as good as and oftentimes quite 288 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: a bit better than men. They are doing so under 289 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: unimaginable circumstances. So not only do you have to be 290 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: the top of your game to get where you are, 291 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: you have to be able to put up with that 292 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: you should never have to put up with. Like, show 293 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: me a male journalist who can report a war zone 294 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: while knowing he's going to be sexually harassed, or you 295 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: know that if once his story goes up, he's going 296 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: to be docked and a picture of him naked is 297 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: going to be sent to his dad. Like, women and 298 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: men are doing the same stuff, but women are also 299 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: putting up with this extra burden of bs just because 300 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: of our gender. And I think when I hear people 301 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: be like, oh can a woman do this as well 302 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: as a man? Not only are we doing it better 303 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: than men, we are doing it. It's like running a 304 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: marathon with a backpack full of rocks on your back, 305 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: right like we are do We are excelling, and we 306 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: are doing it under worse circumstances than you are. So 307 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: how dare you even ask the question? What can a 308 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: woman report on? Like? It's just I find it so offensive. 309 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: It makes me. It makes me so angry. Yeah, yeah, 310 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: me too. I feel again that we get told this 311 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: story that women complain more and they're more dramatic. But 312 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: if we're putting up with all of this and doing 313 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: our job on top of that and really not can 314 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: plain ending that much, I don't understand why why we 315 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,479 Speaker 1: are still as societies around the world asking can women 316 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: do this? I've said up before and I'll say it again, 317 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: Ginger rogers and everything that fed a stair did only 318 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: backward and while wearing heels. So we have a little 319 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: bit more for you. But first we're gonna take one 320 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: more quick break for a word from our sponsor, and 321 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,719 Speaker 1: we're back. Thank you sponsor. If we're talking about solutions, 322 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: a suggestion I ran into a lot is to assemble 323 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 1: a group of experienced journalists and have them draft proposals 324 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: for journalists safety on a national level, possibly setting up 325 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: in office that solely looks into attacks on the press. 326 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: Another frequent suggestion is that media companies should provide secure 327 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: at protection for their reporters. Female reporters themselves have advocated 328 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: for safety and transport, which is not at all guaranteed 329 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: when you're a journalist in India and an increased concern 330 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: from media organizations about the welfare of their journalist, designated 331 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: place to lodge complaints, perhaps an online space where female 332 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: journalists can share their experiences and advice, and an organization 333 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: that offers legal advice. Basically, some some infrastructure to to 334 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: help deal with this problem, some places to go, where 335 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: a designated place to lodge your complaint because from the 336 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: stories I read, it sounds like a lot of the 337 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: journalism institutions in India don't guarantee your safety and in fact, 338 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: like if you come back and report, they're sort of like, well, 339 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:57,479 Speaker 1: why don't you expect Yeah exactly. But ultimately, as is usual, 340 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: it's a question of respecting women and working to chan 341 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: change gender biases. For example, and discussing the obstacles face 342 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: by female journalist in the Minister of State for Information 343 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: and Broadcasting, solution was essentially stand or as ladies um 344 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: and that they would be quote far better utilized without 345 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: actually going out into the field. So don't change anything, 346 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: just stay inside. That was the answer. That's wrong for 347 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: so many levels, not the least of which is that 348 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: you get better reported stories when there are different perspectives, 349 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: Like there are issues happening out in the field that 350 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: pertained to people who aren't men. Don't you think that 351 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: it's going to be better to have someone who might 352 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: bring a different perspective to that situation that a man 353 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: that he could not bring, Like, not only is a 354 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: sexist and gross and setting up a really bad culture, 355 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 1: it's just bad for journalism when you only have one 356 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: type of person and their perspective and their biases and 357 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: their understandings reflected in journalism. Like, you're gonna get better 358 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: media if we can get a handle on the sexual 359 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: harassment issue in journalism, Like we're like, we're all going 360 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: to be better served. Yes, that makes sense to me, 361 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: bridget I think you're you're right that the things that 362 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: you talked about as solutions are important and will be 363 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: good steps. But ultimately it's about a it's about a 364 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 1: radical culture shift of how we see women in the workplace, 365 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: not just in journalism, not just in India but large Yes. Um, 366 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: So that brings us to the end of this episode. 367 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from any listeners in India, are 368 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: or anywhere else. Um. We love looking at issues all 369 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: around the world, and this brings us to listener mail. 370 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: Kate wrote the part of your discussion. I found most 371 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: interesting was your take on the lack of men in 372 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: fan fiction and your hypothesis that men don't take it 373 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: seriously or maybe don't find it necessary to participate in, 374 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: which makes it a largely female donated pastime. And because 375 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: it is female dominated, fan fiction is largely a safe 376 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: and welcoming space for all types of expression. My experience 377 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: on Reddit has been that women are drawn to fan 378 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: fiction are fan communities, not because the communities are welcoming. 379 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: The communities are welcoming because they are mostly women, and 380 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: when men become a vocal group in that fan space, 381 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: it ruins thinks. For a long time, I read fan 382 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: fiction totally without community. I obviously knew other people were 383 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: reading and writing fix, but I didn't know how are 384 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: where to interact with them online. So when I found 385 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: the Harry Potter fan fiction sub on Reddit a couple 386 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: of years ago, I thought I had finally found my people. 387 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: But that sub, despite being filled with Harry Potter fans, 388 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: who are typically some of the kindest fans on the Internet, 389 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: is filled with toxic masculinity. Demographic polls in that sub 390 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: have found that most people there are men. The main 391 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: fix that are requested, recommended, and up voted are Harry 392 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: paired with hot girls and quotes like flur or Mary 393 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: sus like Daphne Greengrass. Some of the most popular Fix 394 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: and plotlines where Harry is super rich, powerful and good 395 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: looking with a harem of lives, so basically wish fulfillment 396 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: for straight men. For a long time, any request for 397 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: Slash parents would get comments like why would anyone want 398 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: to read that? Or that's disgusting. To be fair, the 399 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: mods have been trying to crack down on it, but 400 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: it is pretty pervasive. Personally, I read primarily dreary and 401 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: Remisslash series Fix, but really I am open to all 402 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: pairings Slash and HT. I hated being ridiculed for the 403 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: pairings I read on the main Harry Potter group, which 404 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: is why about eighteen months ago I started my own sub, 405 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: but just for Slash Fix. Once I started that group, 406 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: I got a taste of the lovely, welcoming fandom groups 407 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: and he talked about on the pod everyone is so 408 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: great and supportive. We recently did a little demographic poll, 409 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: the results being that most people on our sub our women, 410 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: but mostly not straight women. It is a big mix 411 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: of sexualities. If any of the listeners are you guys 412 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: are interested, we are at reddit dot com slash r 413 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: slash HP, slash vick. Thank you so much for sharing that. 414 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: I I have not, as Bridget found out earlier, delved 415 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: much into Reddit, so I didn't really know until I 416 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: heard from a lot of you listeners what the fan 417 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: fiction situation is over there. And it's been really enlightening 418 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: and fascinating to hear from you. And I'm so glad 419 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: that you created this kind of welcoming support of space 420 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: on Reddit. And we have one point two k subscribers, 421 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: so good job, well done. Yeah, I definitely want to 422 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: check it out. Melissa wrote, have either of you read 423 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: the book fan Girl by Rainbow Rowel or the semi 424 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: sequel spinoff carry On? I love this writer, so I'm 425 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: a little partial. Eleanor and Park is probably my favorite 426 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: from her if you're just dipping your toes in In 427 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: fan Girl, Kath is a new college freshman who's painfully 428 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: but relatively awkward at times, like she doesn't know how 429 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: the meal card system works. Instead of asking for help, 430 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: she eats granola bars until roommate finds out, which is 431 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: something I would totally, totally do. Kat is the author 432 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: of a really popular fan fiction called carry On that's 433 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: based on what is clearly Harry Potter. Kath writes the 434 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: two male leads who hate each other in the imaginary 435 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: series Bald and Love. As If this isn't enough, wait 436 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: there's more. The author then wrote an entire novel called 437 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: carry On. It's a little cheesy at time. It's mostly 438 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: because it's a knock off of Harry Potter's vibe, but 439 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: the two romantic characters are male. Both are an interesting 440 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: perspective of fan fiction that I'd recommend. I read some 441 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: fan fiction years ago, but I definitely didn't realize the 442 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: huge impact you can have on people and the level 443 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: of storytelling that happens me neither. I've actually been so 444 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: interested and inspired having listeners like you right in about 445 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: their experiences with fan fiction, Like I'm a complete novice 446 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: to it, so I didn't know any of this. It 447 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: really is just an inspiring, uplifting thing that so many 448 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: people are finding, you know, finding themselves and fan fiction 449 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: is I love it. I do too, And I did 450 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: run across this book a lot when researching that episode, 451 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: and I definitely want to check it out now, so 452 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: please keep the loaders coming. Fan fiction or otherwise, we 453 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Our email is a mom 454 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 1: Stuff at house to works dot com, and you can 455 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: always find us on the social med were on Instagram 456 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: that Stuff I've Never Told You, and on Twitter at 457 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast. And as always, thanks to our producers 458 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: Kathleen Quillian and Dylan Fagan, and thanks to you for 459 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: listening