1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: The vault hangs open. Will you walk inside with us? Yes, 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 1: do walk inside, because we're gonna be cracking out our 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: old episodes on Techno Religion, Part one and Part two. 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: This is gonna be part one. Yeah, so when did 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,159 Speaker 1: these originally published? So part one here originally published on 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: June nine. Oh, this was one of my one of 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: my first episodes way back when I was a brand 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: new baby on this show. I wanted to talk about 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: some intersections between technology and religion, so we did, and 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: Robert it was a lot of fun. I still remember 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: those days very fondly. Yeah, we got we got two 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 1: long episodes out of it. And the cool thing is, 15 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: I think we have the potential to do a third 16 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: Techno Religion episode in the future. So keep that in 17 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: mind as you're listening to all of this, and certainly 18 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: shoot us an email if you can think of a 19 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: wonderful example of religious technology that we should include. I 20 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: think we heard after this episode from at least one 21 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: academic who is doing a dissertation on techno religion. Well, 22 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: I've forgot about that. We'll have to reach out to 23 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: them anyway. Here is our classic episode on techno Religion 24 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: for the Masses, Part one, and of course next weekend 25 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: if you want to tune back in on Saturday, we 26 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: will be re airing part two. So here's part one. 27 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff to blow your mind from how 28 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. We may say that we have 29 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: the birth of a new science, a new philosophy, a 30 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 1: new life. The time of deliverance has come at last, 31 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: and henceforward the career of humanity is upward and onward, 32 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: a mighty, a noble, and a godlike career. All the 33 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: revelations of spiritual as them heretofore, all the control of 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: spirits over mortals, and the instruction and discipline they have 35 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: given us, have only paved the way, as it were, 36 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: for the advent of a great practical movement, such as 37 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: the world little dreams of though it has long deeply 38 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: yearned for it, and agonized and groaned away its life 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: because it did not come sooner. And this new motive 40 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: power is to lead the way in the great, speedily 41 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: coming salvation. It is to be the physical savior of 42 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: the race, the history of its inception, its various stages 43 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: of progress, and its completion will show the world a 44 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: most beautiful and significant analogy to the advent of Jesus 45 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: is the spiritual savior of the race. Hence we most 46 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: confidently assert that the advent of the science of all sciences, 47 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: the philosophy of all philosophies, and the art of all 48 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: arts has now fairly commenced. The child is born not 49 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: long hence he will go alone. Then he will dispute 50 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: with the doctors and the temples of science. And then hey, 51 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is 52 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. Joe, what is what 53 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: is going on here? I'm reading a quote. This is 54 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: a quote from a Boston newspaper. The June four edition 55 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: of a Boston newspaper called the New Era or Heaven 56 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: Opened to Man, And this passage was written by a 57 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: former Universalist minister named Simon Hewitt. So after this passage, 58 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: one skeptical reader named Emma Hardinge commented that quote nothing 59 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: could be given further beyond vague hints of what was 60 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: to follow. The awful then which broke off breathless at 61 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: the contemplation of its own inexpressible possibilities. So all this 62 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: preamble to something amazing that's going to change humanity? What 63 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: on earth could Simon Wit have been talking about? Well, 64 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: he was referring to something that sat inside the upper 65 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: room of a large tower overlooking the coast beyond the 66 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: town of Lynn, Massachusetts. This is high rock tower. If 67 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: you want to look it up, you can see a 68 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: picture of this place. It still exists to kind of 69 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: get a sense of it. And inside the upper room 70 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: of this tower were the fruits of what I would 71 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: sort of think of as the ultimate backyard engineering project. 72 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: It is like garage engineering gone to the extreme. So 73 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: from July eighteen fifty three to the following spring in 74 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty four, a group of universalist reformers and spiritualist 75 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: enthusiasts had been building a machine called the New Motor. 76 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: And it would be something I'd say, probably never seen 77 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: before on earth, an electro mechanical messiah. Yes, which you 78 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: know this will bring to mind a number of different 79 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: stunning visuals. Would we would like to dissuade you from 80 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: We'll make sure we have some links to some images 81 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: of the the electrical Messiah in question on the landing 82 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: page for this episode. But but if you think about 83 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: a Dollec from doctor Who, from Doctor Who, if a 84 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: Dollec were to breed with a coffee table, Uh, their 85 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: offspring when probably resembled the UH decorated with many like 86 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: dangling Christmas ornaments. Yes. Yes, so it's a hybrid of 87 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: a coffee table and a dialect decorated for Christmas and 88 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: serving as kind of kind of an altarpiece as well. 89 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: There's certainly an altarpiece vibe to this creation, sure, And 90 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: this is bridging two worlds that we tend to see 91 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: as sort of I don't know what spectrum it is, 92 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: but there, whatever it is, there at the opposite ends 93 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: of the spectrum. One is religion and the other is technology. 94 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: I mean, we typically think of religion as a very 95 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: low tech affair. You tend to go into churches, I 96 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe not some churches these days, but you 97 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: see a lot of stuff that recalls an earlier time. 98 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: And our religious texts in most of the major religions 99 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: of the world are very ancient, and thus the metaphors 100 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: in which we talk about our religions tend to be 101 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: very ancient, and technology is you know, it's the very 102 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: essence of what is new and what the future is. 103 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: I mean, what is science fiction that imagines the future 104 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: usually focused on its new technology? Yeah, I mean most 105 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: of the major world religions. Yeah, they're based on ancient 106 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: cosmologies that sometimes we're okay with updating. Uh. Generally, at 107 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: certain points in the past we will say, all right, 108 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: we're gonna actually change this a little bit to the 109 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: fit how we live now. But for the most part, yeah, 110 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: they're rooted in the past, and technology is ever rooted 111 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: in the president in the future. Right, But today we 112 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,679 Speaker 1: want to discuss what happens when you cram the ends 113 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: of that spectrum together and you create techno religion. So 114 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: what happens when technology changes religions, what happens when technology 115 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: becomes a component of religious practice, and what happens when 116 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: technology becomes a god or messiah in itself? Right, And 117 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: this is something that has been happening for ages. Uh. 118 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: If you think of technology and the broader sentence especially, 119 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: humans have always been developing new technologies, developing gadgets, developing 120 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: um more advanced ways of just looking at the world. 121 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: Around them and manipulating the world around them. And this 122 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: has always gone hand in hand with our ability to 123 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: understand the purpose of life and the purpose of of 124 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: our existence here on earth. Yeah. And the concept of 125 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: purpose is also built into the idea of technology, because 126 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: we typically think of technology as like a machine or 127 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: a mechanism that does a particular job. But if you 128 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: look at the Standard Dictionary definition of technology, it's going 129 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: to say something like the practical application of scientific knowledge 130 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: toward a purpose. So keep all of that in mind. 131 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: Keep those definitions in mind as we explore the convergence 132 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: of technology and religion. Yeah. So I was wondering, what 133 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: are some of the earliest examples of the religious use 134 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: of a machine? Like you can only think back so far. 135 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: I mean, of course, nowadays people might I don't know, 136 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: read devotional literature on their iPad or something. But is 137 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: there anything people have been doing for hundreds or thousands 138 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: of years with machines to help them in their spiritual journeys. Yes. 139 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: In fact, we have a couple of really good examples 140 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: of this, the first of which is the prayer wheel, 141 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: which I imagine most people have seen images or footage 142 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: of these, particularly if you've ever traveled into the into 143 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: into East Asia, or or had any kind of contact 144 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: with with with Buddhism, but these tend to be We're 145 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: talking about a wheel and spindle composed of various materials. 146 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: Who find a made made out of you know, ornate metals, 147 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: You'll find them made out of stone, You'll find the 148 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: made out of leather and cotton and it Uh, it's 149 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: a physical manifestation of the turning wheel of dharma in Buddhism. Okay, 150 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: so physically to picture this is it going to be 151 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: kind of like one of those like game prize wheels. Uh, sort, 152 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: I mean it's the it's it's not positioned vertically, it's 153 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: positioned h's horizontally. It kind of if you were just 154 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: an outsider looking at it and you knew nothing about 155 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: Eastern religion, you might you might equate it with with 156 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: some sort of a dude at at a child's playground, right, 157 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: just something that seems like you just spin it and 158 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: it's cool to spin. But of course it has far 159 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: more purpose than that within the context of the religion. 160 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 1: Um So the wheel of Dharma, Yeah, the wheel of 161 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: dharma and uh, and it's all tied in with accumulating 162 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: good karma, purifying bad karma, because you you spin this wheel, 163 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: and in spinning the prayer wheel, you are assisting yourself 164 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: with the with with with the purging of bad karma 165 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: and the accumulation of the good. And this is accomplished 166 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: by the fact that I mean on top of the 167 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: wheel being this, uh, this, this gadget, this device that 168 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: that that presents this um this cosmological idea. The prayers 169 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: are also filled with up to a mile of prayers. Um, 170 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: so we're talking mantras and sutras generally written in Sanskrit 171 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: and uh. The prayers are recited each time the wheel 172 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: makes a revolution. So a pilgrim spins the wheel and 173 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: with each spin helps helps them gain merit and to 174 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: concentrate the mind on the mantras and sutras that are 175 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: being re enacted by the wheel. Okay, so much in 176 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: the way that say, a lever or a pulley might 177 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: upgrade our ability to do physical work, this wheel can 178 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: upgrade our ability to do spiritual work. Yeah, it's I 179 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: guess one way to think if it would be think 180 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: about a cassette player. Right, Um, say you're just a 181 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: really huge fan of I don't know what's your what's 182 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: your favorite metal album, your favorite rock and roll album album? Uh, 183 00:10:55,559 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: Dope Throne, Dope Throne by Electric Wizard. Okay, right, Well, 184 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: let's say you're particularly love Dope Throne, and so you 185 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: have a cassette of Dope Throne. But that cassette doesn't 186 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: actually play just the But imagine this, The mere act 187 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: of that tape filtering through the machine and revolving around 188 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: that wheel somehow enacted the spirit of that album for you. 189 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: That's the kind of what's going on. So it gives 190 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: you the essence or the aura of Dope Throne without 191 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: the sounds having to play right And and ideally, I 192 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: think my understanding too, is that you would also focus 193 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 1: the mind on Dope Throne. So it's not just saying 194 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: I'm turning this machine instead of thinking about it. I'm 195 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 1: doing both. But but where this gets really interesting is 196 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: when you, for instance, when you look at the fact 197 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: that until the twentieth century, virtually the only Tibetan use 198 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: for the wheel was as a device for activating these mantras, 199 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: so that the wheel was was virtually virtually went unused 200 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: there as a physical tool. It's a technology for you know, 201 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: moving things around or crushing things, etcetera. It was used 202 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: almost exclusively as a really is technology. Wow yeah um. 203 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: Now that's not to say that all prayer wheels are 204 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: turned by hand. That's kind of the main one you see, 205 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: and it's certainly the one that often makes the biggest 206 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: impression visually. That's a money wheel. But there are also 207 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: varieties that are turned by fire, water, wind, um, electricity. 208 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: Hold on a second, So we've got an electric prayer 209 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: karma machine. Yes, yeah, it's And this is where it 210 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: gets really interesting because because it's one thing to say, 211 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: all right, this one is spun by hand, because also 212 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: I'm the human, I mean, the kind of at the 213 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: center of this religious thing, right, It's another to say 214 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: the fire, the wind, or the air is going to 215 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: move because those are natural forces created by the gods. Right. Yeah, 216 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: Well that makes me think of an analogy like if 217 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: you look to medieval Catholicism, where you might have chantries 218 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: that are where it's ay, a wealthy person, Remember, the 219 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: gentry could pay people to pray, and the more prayers 220 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: that the monks would say in these chantry is based 221 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: on the amount they paid, could lessen their stay in purgatory. 222 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: I wonder if you know, if they've had this kind 223 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: of technology at the time, would they think, well, would 224 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: it be okay to say the number of prayer machines 225 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: you build could lessen your stay in purgatory? Um? Could like, 226 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: could you get one of those texts to speech synthesizers 227 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: to say prayers? You know, I don't know. I would 228 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: definitely love to hear from someone, uh with more insight 229 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: into the the rules of of Tibetan Buddhism and these 230 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: prayer wheels, because it would seem like you could just 231 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: buy a bunch of these things and just set them up, 232 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: plug them in, and let them go and then maybe 233 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: just completely externalize your your karma situation. Um. Yeah. They 234 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: call these tardo corlos, and they can keep them running 235 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day using a four point five 236 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: vault DC electric current. Uh and and and so yeah, 237 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: you can just keep it running all the time, presuming 238 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: when you're sleeping, when you're eating, when you're doing things 239 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: that I assume do not involve the the the mental concentration. 240 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: It's like a karmic force field generator exactly. Yeah. And 241 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: this is even crazier when you think of another technological 242 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: uh innovation that you see with the prayer of wheels, 243 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: and that's that you can also find microfilm prayer wheels 244 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: that contain more, uh came, even more than a million 245 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: mantras inside them. So yeah, so you between microfilm technology 246 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: and uh and just simple electric uh you know technology 247 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: to create a spinning wheel, Um, you can really sort 248 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: of change your your karma game. It seems the micro 249 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: film is especially interesting to me. It seems like that's 250 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: almost like a religious implementation of the idea of nanotechnology, 251 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: like accomplishing more in a smaller space. It makes me 252 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: wonder and and perhaps someone has has done something along 253 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: these lines. But why even deal with the physical wheel? 254 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: What if you took the wheel virtually you could have 255 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: I mean, what would the limits there would be pretty 256 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: much be no limits, right, I mean, you could have 257 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: and the an absurd number of mantras moving through a 258 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: wheel at pretty much any kind of rate you want. Like, 259 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: you could create a computer program that executes a subroutine 260 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: that is just a list of these mantras and you 261 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: could tell it to loop infinitely. Yeah, kind of a 262 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: karmic defragging system just running in the background out of 263 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: your your computer at all times. Yeah. And of course, 264 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: so this is kind of our outsider's perspective. But I'm 265 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: sure somebody who is actually believing in and using these 266 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: sorts of prayer wheels would have a pretty good and 267 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: well thought out explanation for why you can use technology 268 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: to achieve a karmically significant event in one way but 269 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: not in another way. It might totally make sense in 270 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: terms of how they interpret their spirituality. Yeah, I mean, 271 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: I think, I think anytime you see this convergence of 272 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: technology and religion, it becomes the domain of of the 273 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: the priest or the priest class, or somebody in some 274 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: sort of you know, clerical authority to say, all right, 275 00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: this is the line, this is this is how far 276 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: technology can come into the sanctuary. It's okay to you know, 277 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: read your hymn or your Bible on an iPad, but 278 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: it's not okay to do X, y or z. It 279 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: makes me want to ask the question why on that 280 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: spectrum I talked about earlier where we have, you know, 281 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: the ancient religion on one hand and the new technology 282 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: on the other, why are they so far apart? Like, 283 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: what is the inherent profanity in technology? It does kind 284 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: of seem crass when you see, like when you see 285 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: a religious service taking place on a JumboTron or something 286 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: like that. Why is that, like what is wrong with 287 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: the technology or what is necessarily unspiritual about it. I 288 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: don't know the answer, but there seems to be an 289 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: intuition like that that we have. I guess so much 290 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: of it is rooted in religion, a tradition, you know. 291 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: I mean, like I've definitely had that moment before. I've 292 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: been at a church service and the person giving the 293 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: sermon or you know, officiating at a wedding has been 294 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: reading off of a kindle or a or a you know, 295 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: a path of something. It looks inappropriate. Yeah, I mean, 296 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: I think it's a lot of it has to do 297 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: with the fact that religions tend to be inherently traditional, 298 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: especially the older traditional religions. So just the the image 299 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: of modern technology, especially when you think of technology, is 300 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: this thing that's such a mastery uh of you know, 301 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: of of human skill and ability to see that uh 302 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: you know, shoehorned in with these things that are supposedly 303 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: given to us from some sort of a higher power. Yeah. 304 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: Though I wonder if people in the ancient world would 305 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: have thought about it in the same way. I mean, 306 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: this again calls to mind something we talked about the 307 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: last time I was on the show, when we talked 308 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: about eclipses, which is the Anti Kither mechanism is an 309 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: ancient Greek device that's often referred to as the world's 310 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: oldest computer or the first computer. And now obviously it 311 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: didn't have microprocessors or anything, but this was a device 312 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: that comes from more than two thousand years ago, is 313 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: found in a shipwreck in the Mediterranean, and it was 314 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: an ancient mechanical computer for for computing the locations of 315 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: celestial objects and for like predicting lunar eclipses and solar 316 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: eclipses in the future. And the interesting thing about this 317 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 1: is it's an amazingly advanced piece of technology for the time, 318 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: just astoundingly advanced. But these events, these celestial mechanics had 319 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: religious significance to the people who used it. Yeah, I mean, 320 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: it's certainly something we discussed in that eclipse episode. When 321 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: when you look back at ancient societies and even not 322 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: so ancient societies, UM astronomy and UH and cosmology are 323 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: are so linked together, like it becomes the domain of 324 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: the of the priest and the clergy to know what 325 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: the stars are doing, to track the stars, so that 326 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: we know what the calendar is telling us and when 327 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: certain rites should be observed. Well, that makes me wonder 328 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: if star tracking technology has entered religion, even ancient religion, 329 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: in the same way the prayer wheel did. Yes, and 330 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: that brings us to the astrolabe. The astrolabe. Yeah, and 331 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: now everyone I think has probably seen an image of 332 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: an astrolabe in their finer forms. These are just works 333 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: of just pure art. I'm going to tell you what 334 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: a picture tell me how far off I am. Basically, 335 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: it's it looks kind of like that compass you used 336 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: to use in middle school math classes to draw a 337 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: perfect circle with another little half moon piece on it. 338 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: Is that completely wrong kind of yeah, with varying levels 339 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: of artistry and a lot of figures and sliding mechanisms. Yeah, 340 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: it's a small circular device. And these would usually usually 341 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: these would be made of wood or brass um and 342 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: they date back over two thousand years. The concept seems 343 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: to originate around three thirty BC, and they were perfected 344 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: by the Arabs in the ninth century, and they remained 345 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: at the basic astronomer's tool for the next seven hundred years. 346 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: It's essentially a model of the stars in the sky, 347 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: which can be moved to show where the stars will 348 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: be at any time of the year, and the reverse 349 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: side of the astrolabe concerns the position of the sun 350 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: in the Okay, so it's a lot like the end 351 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: to get through a mechanism in a way. Yeah, yeah, 352 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: it's it's portable and has a large display. On top 353 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: of that, if you have a really nice model, it's 354 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: a beautiful work of art, something you might easily show 355 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: it off at the dinner table. Uh. It's arguably one of, 356 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: if not the first, personal computer mobile carrying it with 357 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: you doing what you need to do in the course 358 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: of a day. Now, the question is would it become 359 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: overheated if sitting on your lap, if it was made 360 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: out of metal and you were sit seated in the sun, 361 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: I would say yes, Um, yeah, that's a sterility hazard. It. Uh. 362 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: You couldn't get an app for this thing, but it 363 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: had a number of features just by virtue of how 364 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: it contract the heavens. You can tell the date and time, 365 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: You could calculate distances. It could be used in determining 366 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: a building height, surveying longitude, latitude, altitude horoscopes. Um. You 367 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: can also figure out the position of the planets. But 368 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: then on top of this there were various occults usages, 369 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: So it gets a little bit into religion there. But 370 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: the most notable function where we see the astrolaid becoming 371 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: a piece of religious technology is in its ability to 372 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: determine Islamic prayer times and determine the direction to Mecca. Okay, 373 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: so this is actually that the piece of technology itself 374 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have religious significance, but there's a fact you 375 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: need to know to execute your religion. You know perfectly 376 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: the way you want to do it. If you want 377 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: to face Mecca as well as you can, why not 378 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: have a machine to help you really hone that piece 379 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 1: of information and get it as accurate as possible. Yeah, 380 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: I mean it in a way, it really becomes an 381 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: essential piece of technology in Islam because a long place 382 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: is a high importance on the position of the believer 383 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: in time and space. For starters, uh, the s alot times, 384 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: these are the five prayers a day plus the Friday prayer. 385 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: They depend It depends on a combination of clock time 386 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: and sundial time to determine exactly when you should take place. 387 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: So it concerns the exact coordinates for a given location. Um. 388 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: Because again it's not just it's not just arbitrary about 389 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: when the prayer times are they have they are specific 390 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: depending on where you are in the world, about where 391 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: you are in terms of sometime. And on top of this, 392 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: the faithful has to know exactly where they are in 393 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: relation to the Kaaba in Mecca so that they can 394 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: face that direction during these prayers. Yeah, I think that's fascinating. 395 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: And unlike the prayer wheel, which itself does some sort 396 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: of religious or spiritual work, this is sort of like 397 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: a technology that we use to be most properly informed 398 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: about how to do the rituals that you would be 399 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: doing anyway, because really a lot of the problems that 400 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: occur in religion they occur as the believer moves farther 401 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: away in in time or space. Right, you're you're you're 402 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: farther away from Mecca. Uh, it's harder to determine exactly 403 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: where you are. Uh. You're not necessarily going to have 404 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: somebody signaling the prayer times each day from a power, 405 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: so it falls on you to figure it out yourself. 406 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: And uh, and then that's where the technology becomes extremely useful. 407 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: But of course there are lots of external influences on 408 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: how we practice our religions. A lot of these influences 409 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: are actually going to be technological. One of the things 410 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: that I thought was interesting was to think about writing 411 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: itself as a technology. Now, writing is so crucial to 412 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: the way we think of most of the major religions 413 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: of the world today, because you've got the Torah for Jews, 414 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: you've got the you know, the Hebrew Bible plus the 415 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: New Testament for Christians, You've got the Kuran for Muslims, 416 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: and and of course there are texts that are central 417 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: to Eastern religions as well, the Ramayana and the Mahabarata 418 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: to be specific. Certainly. Yeah, and so we think about 419 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: religion as a very text based of fair but there's 420 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: really no reason it has to be. I mean, religions 421 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: can be transmitted orally through culture. That can be systems 422 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: of cultural practices that don't necessarily have to be written 423 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: down or encoded anywhere. But for some reason, most of 424 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: the world's major religions have a strong textual component, and 425 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: I wonder how it changed the way we practiced religion 426 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: when writing came into humanity, because writing, I mean, human 427 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: civilization is much older than writing. Of course, human life 428 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: in general, human culture is even older than civilization, so 429 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: much older than writing. So we can only really imagine, 430 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I'm sure that something like a 431 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: cultural anthropologist or an archaeologists could tell us more about 432 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: how they think writing might have changed the way we 433 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: practice religions, but I really have no idea. Well, I mean, 434 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: I think it hard. You're probably doing on the situation 435 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: of of of the expansion of memory, right, because writing 436 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: is in essence the ability to externalized human memory. Before writing, 437 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: how we that we can only contain as much as 438 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: could fit in a human mind, or if maybe if 439 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: you were, you know, really skilled at you might compartmentalize it, 440 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: right and have one person deal with the with these 441 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: memories versus the other, almost a fahrenheit for fifty one 442 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: kind of situation. Yeah, So before writing, it's you're limited 443 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: by just the power of the human mind, remember, and 444 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: then the ability to pass that on to us, which 445 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 1: of course we know from everyday experience, but also from 446 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: actual studies. We we don't pass on information all that 447 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: faithfully if we don't write it down right, memory itself 448 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: is not set in stone, and uh, and then there's 449 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: kind of a telephone game anytime we pass something on anything. Really, 450 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: anytime you remember something, you're taking it out, you're potentially 451 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: changing it and then putting it back in. So yeah, 452 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: I have to imagine, though, of course I could be 453 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: wrong that, uh, that as much as religious beliefs kind 454 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: of change from generation to generation today, I have to 455 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: imagine they changed even more and much more quickly in 456 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: times before there were sort of like texts to anchor them. Yeah, 457 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: before you could actually set a religion in stone. I 458 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: imagine a religion really just by virtue of how we 459 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: remembered it. It changed with us so very fluid. So 460 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: some of these problems we run into where we're saying, 461 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: all right, we're trying to apply ancient Babylonian cosmology to 462 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: modern times. Part of that is by virtue of depending 463 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,239 Speaker 1: upon ancient Babylonian cosmology is set in stone, and then 464 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: you know and then that that recording of it is 465 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: considered sacred and holy. Right, So these ancient writing technologies, 466 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: we of course had the invention of alphabets, and I 467 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: think it's very fair to consider an alphabet of technology. 468 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: But then on top of that, you just had the 469 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: preservation technology. So you had scrolls, you eventually had cadsseas, 470 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 1: you had you know, tablets and carving and and all 471 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: the different pictograms and libraries and and every bit of 472 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: technology we had. But there was one big thing I 473 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: think that that was the main textual technology that really 474 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: revolutionized the world, and that would be the printing press. Yes, yeah, 475 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: we're talking about the mid fifteenth century in Europe particularly 476 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: called Gutenberg. Gutenberg, yeah, um, and his effect on the Bible, 477 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: the Gutenberg Bible, because prior to this, any given Western 478 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: manuscript had to be copied by hand, and it was 479 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: generally this was something that was handled by by the clergy. 480 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: Right can you imagine this living in a world where 481 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: so you look to the church as your you know, 482 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: as your authority on all things spiritual, uh, and probably 483 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: more than that also all things government in some cases 484 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: and and all that. But they have the Bible as 485 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: the authority that's interpreted by the church. And so what 486 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: is the Bible, Well, it is hand to copy documents 487 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: that most people don't have much access to They might 488 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: be because they're so rare. I mean they're kept in 489 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: script or i ums or libraries or these places that 490 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 1: the average per and wouldn't have any access to. Yeah, 491 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: they're highly fetishized. Uh, it's it's just not something that 492 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 1: the average person would have access to. And on top 493 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: of that, the lack of a printing press means that 494 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: there's really not much distributed commentary on the documents either. 495 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: And this is something that uh, a lot of people 496 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,959 Speaker 1: would say played a big role in the Renaissance, Protestant Reformation, 497 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: the Enlightenment, scientific Revolution. If you just look at the 498 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: Protestant Reformation, you have to imagine the effect that the 499 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: printing press had on not just the Bible itself, but 500 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: on the distribution of Reformation propaganda. And I don't use 501 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: the word propaganda there in a negative sense. I think 502 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: that's just the term for all of the ways in 503 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: which Reformation ideas were being spread throughout Europe at the time. Yeah, 504 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: it's really the kind of technological advancement in mass communication 505 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: that you can you can really only compare it to, 506 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: if not the emergence of writing to begin with, and 507 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: perhaps the Internet age like that, like such a big 508 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: movement in such a drastic change in our ability to 509 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: communicate with one another. Speaking of the scientific revolution, Uh, 510 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: that makes me think about the you know, the whole 511 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: notion of a clockwork universe, which I'm not gonna get 512 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: too deep into that here that could easily be its 513 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: own podcast. But everyone's heard the idea of a creator 514 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: God as a watchmaker, right, Um, this creator makes the 515 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: perfect mechanical time piece that is the universe and then 516 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: just lets it go. Maybe winds it first, I guess 517 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: hopefully winds it and then lets it go because it 518 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: doesn't need to to be rewound or anything. It works 519 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: perfectly as it's created. And this is an example of, 520 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, a technological society, A society that has these 521 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: technological ideas in its head can't help but think about, um, 522 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: the unseen world in terms of those same mechanisms, right. 523 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it's very common to want to describe the 524 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: actions of God in terms that we can understand. And 525 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: what do we understand these days? And making machines scenes? Yeah, 526 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: I haven't seen a lot of this, but I wonder 527 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: to what extent, like modern like email or jargon, etcetera, 528 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: has has made its way into you know, just average 529 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: say Christian sermons, Like, does anyone talk about um communication 530 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: with God, prayer itself being a form of email. I 531 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: do think a lot of the jokes now displayed on 532 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: church signs come from email forwards. Yeah, indeed, I believe 533 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: I saw one chart church marquee here around town a 534 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: few years back with a talked about sending God some 535 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: quote an email, which I thought when I when I 536 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: read an email, I was instantly thinking, that sounds like 537 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: a great name for some sort of a wrestling move, 538 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: finishing maneuver right where you need somebody in the head, 539 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: and you call it an email. But there of course 540 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: talking about kneeling, uh, and then praying, which is a 541 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: form of an email. That's adorable an email. But getting 542 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: back to the ways that external advances in technology have 543 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: affected the progression of religions, one of the ways that 544 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: I think is very significant is looking at the way 545 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: technology has changed the way we do work, which of 546 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: course is the main thing technology does, and how that 547 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: affects religious beliefs about how we should do work. Oh, 548 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: you're talking of course about Shabbat, right, of course, So 549 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: if you look at the way some Jews interpret teachings 550 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: in the Torah on what should be done or not 551 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: done on the Sabbath. There have been lots of ways 552 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: in which new technologies have sort of intruded on the 553 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: traditional understanding of what is accepted and forbidden to do 554 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: on the day of rest. Right, this is sundown Friday 555 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: to send down Saturday, in which Orthodox user forbidden to work, right, 556 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: which is interesting technology, right uh? And to drive vehicle 557 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: of course, right. And so of course what you can 558 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: guess from drive a vehicle is that a lot of 559 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: these things aren't directly commandments stated in the tour itself 560 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: as an ancient document, but their interpretations that have come 561 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: from the rabbis throughout the years about how we should 562 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: apply the laws of the Torah to the new technological 563 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: world we find ourselves in. Right, because just by the 564 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: basic laws and like the thirty nine different activities that 565 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: are off limits, um, it would mean that you can't 566 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: cook or light a fire, and by extension of that, 567 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: the interpretation is that there would be no moving electricity 568 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: through a circuit. Okay. So by this interpretation, really, if 569 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: you want to be observant on the Sabbath, you should 570 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: not press a button that causes an electrical device to 571 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: turn on. Right, And that's where it gets kind of 572 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: tricky because there's some obvious examples, uh that you know, 573 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: you could say, well, don't turn on the vacuum cleaner. Okay, 574 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: well I'm not gonna turn on the vauum cleaner because 575 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: I'm also not going to vacuum. But then you gotta 576 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: eat on on the on the Sabbath, right, So, so 577 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: what do you do about opening the refrigerator door? Oh, 578 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: because when you open the refrigerator door, a light comes 579 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: on exactly. That's your action of opening the door that 580 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: has cause that light to ignite. Yeah. So I mean 581 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: for the longest there's an easy workaround, right. You could 582 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: either unscrew the bulb or you just you tape up 583 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: that little button right, right. So those are some pretty 584 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: simple workarounds for that some orthodox chose might use. But 585 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: it gets more complicated than that in some scenarios. Right. 586 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: For instance, another classic workaround was involved the use of 587 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: an oven, right, because you need to heat up food. 588 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: You can't light your stove. You can't activate the oven 589 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: by pushing the button. But if you activate the oven, 590 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: you turn it on before sundown. Um on Friday and 591 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: just leave it running through and keep it warm, you know, 592 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: through sundown on Saturday. Then you can make use of 593 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: that heat. You're you're just setting an emotion beforehand and 594 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: then picking up after the Sabbath is done. I'd imagine 595 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: a lot of ovens today are programmed not to do 596 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: that because they don't want it would be a safety 597 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: hazard to just leave an oven on and leave town 598 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, so they probably have like an automatic 599 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: shut off, right they do, Yeah, an automatic safety shut off. 600 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: And when they started using these, you know, they were 601 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,919 Speaker 1: getting complaints from people who who needed uh to keep 602 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: their oven on in order to observe the religious practices. 603 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: So this is where we get Sabbath mode on on 604 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: various appliances, Uh not where they play Sabbath albums. Right, 605 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: So that would that was certainly an innovation that would 606 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: be that would be great on modern Welcome in my house, 607 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: a black Sabbath mode on your your dishwasher, etcetera. But no, 608 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: this would involve simply a manual override to the safety 609 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: features so that you could operate your cooking technology in 610 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: accordance with your religious faith. You know, I bet that 611 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: there are specific manufacturers that do this. There are and 612 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: in fact there's actually something called star K Kosher Certification 613 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: for Appliances. Yeah, you can actually go to their their 614 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: website it's star uh dash K dot org and they 615 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: have a lot of stuff dealing with with kosher foods, 616 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 1: what have you. But also at a whole system, a 617 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: whole section on appliances where you can look up the 618 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: appliances and see what they're their, their potential Sabbath modes are, 619 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: how to activate them, how to use them in accordance 620 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: with these rules and regulations. Another classic example about the 621 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: Shabbat and technology is the use of an elevator. Right, reasonly, 622 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: you need to use an elevator to move around in 623 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: a high rise building. How do you do it if 624 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: you can't push a button? While you just simply program 625 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: the elevator, uh, during the Sabbat to go from floor 626 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: to floor to floor to floor, up and down, up 627 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: and down NonStop. And then you just get on and 628 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: you just ride the ride. Wow. Yeah, so I might 629 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: be a long ride and a long wait, but at 630 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: least you can observe your your practices exactly. Another bit 631 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: of religious technology wounded to touch on real quick is 632 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: a sixteenth century clockwork monk created by one La Torriana, 633 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: who was a mechanic for Spanish Emperor Charles the Fifth, 634 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: the emperor's son, King Philip the Second, the story goes, 635 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: was praying at the bedside of his own dying son 636 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: and he's getting desperate, so he's making promises to the divine. 637 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: He's promising a miracle for a miracle. Uh it is 638 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: child survives, he ends up recovering, and he has to 639 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: keep his promise. What kind of a miracle can can 640 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: a king actually do? Well? Obviously, the king is gonna 641 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 1: um his mechanical constelled as a mechanic and get him 642 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: to create a miracle as a as kind of an 643 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: offering right as a as as a thank you to 644 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: the divine. And so that's where when Ello comes in 645 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: and he creates a key wound spring operated automaton and 646 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 1: a really complicated automaton at that. Yeah, I've seen pictures 647 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: of this and it's fascinating. You can, like, I think 648 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: there's a little compartment where you can peek in on 649 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: the inside of it, and it's got gears, and I 650 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: don't I couldn't begin to understand how it works on 651 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: the inside. But what does it actually do? Well? I 652 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: mean it it walks around, uh kind of a square shape. 653 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: It strikes its chest with its right arm. It raises 654 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: and lowers a small cross and rosary with its left. 655 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: It occasionally kisses the cross. It turns and nods its head, 656 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: It rolls its eyes, and it mouths you know, silent 657 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 1: prayers and whatnot. So so wait, you said it strikes 658 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: its chest, So is this is this auto automatic self flagellation. 659 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: I don't think it's quite flagellation, but that would be 660 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 1: a different That would be an interesting different. Yea. Um, 661 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: But some of you probably heard a Radio Lab episode 662 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: a few years back where they did like a short 663 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: profile of this piece and sort of the mysteries around it, 664 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: because there are a lot of questions regarding, you know, 665 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: why why was this created? What's the exact purpose? You know, 666 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: what was the mindset in creating it? Because it's simply 667 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: an offering, uh, you know to God. Is it's a 668 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: is it something you're supposed to put on the table 669 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: and you also around in prayer, pray while observing it? Right, 670 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: my question would be does it do something relevant or 671 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 1: is it more kind of like when a painter sculptor 672 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: would create a work of art and dedicate it to 673 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,720 Speaker 1: the Lord. I think that seems to be the prevalent interpretation, 674 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: though in the light of what we talked about with 675 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: the prayer wheel, it's it's tempting to want to go 676 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: that direction with it, you know, and think of it 677 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: as a think that, like its prayers had some efficacy. Yeah, 678 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm tempting. I really want to believe that 679 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: I can, in good uh, in good faith, put that forward. 680 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: Is is something that I think or that even the 681 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: majority of the experts think that that was in the 682 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: mind of of the king or the mechanic responsible. But 683 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: you can't help but but wonder exactly how the mindset 684 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: of the mechanic played into it. And of course, in 685 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: our modern time, UM, we've plenty of examples of of 686 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,439 Speaker 1: prayer taking place online U prayer groups, etcetera. Sharing their 687 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: concerns via the Internet. And I don't know to what 688 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: extent they can you know, they ever consider the email 689 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: itself a prayer. But but certainly that seems like a 690 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: lot that will blurn more and more as that becomes 691 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: like standard practice, right because certainly, uh, at some point 692 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: the written word uh became holy. Right, and then I 693 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: can't help but but imagine that in the advent of 694 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: the printing press, maybe initially the printed word was a 695 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: little less holy, a little more manufactured. Sure than that 696 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: becomes uh, you know, de facto holy as well. Right, Well, 697 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: this is the other side of the advance of the 698 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: textual technology uh progression, because religion is so inherently social 699 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: and in most the way most people practice it, and 700 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 1: it's something that deeply does involve communication between groups and 701 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: so allowing greater communication between people who think alike or 702 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: want to offer each other religious advice or interpretation or consolation. 703 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: The Internet is obviously going to be a huge explosion 704 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: in that. But it's also not just a peer to 705 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: peer exchange, right. So you can have your sort of 706 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: like your religious you know, emails goal where you forward 707 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: each other the things that you know you want to 708 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: show to your friends and your peers in the church. 709 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 1: You can also have services provided by church officials over 710 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: telecommunications links. Indeed, and uh, you know, here's a question 711 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 1: that comes to mind here if it's if it's blasphemous 712 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,720 Speaker 1: to um, to burn or to face a religious text 713 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: such as the Bible or the Koran. What have you 714 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: deleted an e book of it? Oh? Man, is that's 715 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: this that blasphemous? I don't know, I don't know. I'm 716 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: sure some people have opinions on that. Yeah, I I 717 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 1: personally do not. Hey, and we haven't even mentioned exorcism online, right, Well, 718 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: that would be one of those services that could be 719 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: offered by you know, your religious official who might be 720 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: so far away. What if they're in a cabin in 721 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: Alaska that hopefully has a fast Internet connection, but they 722 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: want to offer the spiritual service that you really need, 723 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: and that might be the exorcism of a demon or 724 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: multiple demons from your person. Right, And there are individuals 725 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 1: who have and continue to offer online exorcism services. Back 726 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, famed Israelian Kabbala master Rabbi Botsfrey 727 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: attempted to remove a dibbic, a disembodied spirit from a 728 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,479 Speaker 1: Brazilian man via the Internet. And more recently we've seen 729 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,760 Speaker 1: evangelical Reverend Bob Larson offering exorcisms for a fee, of course, 730 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: via Skype. And this, uh, this was actually featured on 731 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: the Daily Show several months back. Yeah, so imagine I 732 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,759 Speaker 1: didn't see that imagine a number of our listeners caught 733 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: it there. Yeah, that sounds way more interesting than the 734 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: video conferencing that we have here at work. Yeah, But 735 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, ultimately, what's I don't see what the big 736 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: big deal is because if if an exorcism involved like 737 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,800 Speaker 1: this right by which you're driving a spiritual invader out, 738 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 1: that's essentially that the demon is kind of telecommuting through 739 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: an individual, right, Yeah, Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, 740 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 1: it seems to me that the ideology behind an exorcism 741 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 1: would suggest that it's a it's an interpersonal connection that 742 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 1: breaks the power of the demon. It's sort of the 743 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: spiritual or emotional or intellectual presence of the clerical official 744 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: that can drive the demon out, not so much the 745 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: physical presence, like why would they really need to be 746 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: in the room. Yeah, I mean it reminds me of 747 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: I think we both recently rewatched portions are the entirety 748 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:24,799 Speaker 1: of the Hell Razor Bloodlines movie, where an individual, of course, 749 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: you know religious technology, right, the limit configuration is a 750 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: little mechanical device and you solve it, and the demon 751 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: show up, the cinobyte show up. And in that movie, 752 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: there's an individual that's cheating, right, by trying by solving 753 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: it virtually or remotely by use of a robot. Right, yes, 754 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,280 Speaker 1: he's he's using essentially the technology of a bomb disposal robot, 755 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,720 Speaker 1: but to solve the lament configuration puzzle box and workroom. 756 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,879 Speaker 1: Initially it works, but then some some people who are 757 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,800 Speaker 1: not very technologically savvy or like, well, we gotta solve 758 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: this problem. They opened the door to the room where 759 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: the cinobytes are contained, and then there's a problem. But 760 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: that's interesting. Initially they're able to outmaneuver the technologically empowered 761 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: demons that are the cinabytes via more advanced technology. Right, 762 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: they can put those cinobytes in a box inside a box, 763 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: exactly inside a box. All right. So that's gonna be 764 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: the end of part one here. This is very much 765 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: again a two part series. Yeah, and if you want 766 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,320 Speaker 1: to hear the conclusion of that story that we started 767 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,840 Speaker 1: this episode with the construction of the electro mechanical Messiah 768 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,919 Speaker 1: at the High Rock Tower in Lynn, Massachusetts, that's gonna 769 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: be in our next episode. So that's going to be 770 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: in part two. Indeed, we're also gonna get into some 771 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: some wonderful UFO and scientology territory as well. So hey, 772 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,279 Speaker 1: if you're if you're listening to this episode as it 773 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: comes out, just wait a couple of days and you know, 774 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: get the second part. If you're catching up on this 775 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: at a later point, I will make sure that there 776 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,280 Speaker 1: is a link to the second episode on the landing 777 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,319 Speaker 1: page for this episode at stuff to blow your Mind 778 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: dot com. That's the mothership. That's where we'll find all 779 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: the episodes, all the videos, all the blog post plus 780 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: links out to our social media accounts such as Facebook 781 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 1: and Twitter. And if you want to let us know 782 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 1: about any interesting thoughts you have or stories you've ever 783 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,799 Speaker 1: experienced about the intersection of religion and technology, or even 784 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 1: the complete synthesis and marriage of religion and technology, email 785 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,399 Speaker 1: us at blow the Mind at how stuff works dot 786 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 787 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:37,280 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com.