WEBVTT - Saving the World with Poop 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:23.036 Pushkin. If you took a COVID test recently, you probably 0:00:23.036 --> 0:00:26.076 took it at home, and if you tested positive, you 0:00:26.156 --> 0:00:29.356 probably didn't report the results to your local health department, 0:00:29.636 --> 0:00:32.756 which you know fair enough, no judgment. But in the 0:00:32.756 --> 0:00:36.156 big picture this does create a problem. How do we 0:00:36.276 --> 0:00:40.476 keep track of COVID levels as public testing declines. How 0:00:40.476 --> 0:00:42.396 do we look out for new variants? How do we 0:00:42.556 --> 0:00:47.276 monitor new outbreaks? The answer, in a word, is poop. 0:00:52.316 --> 0:00:54.996 I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is what's your problem. My 0:00:55.036 --> 0:00:58.956 guest today is Mariana Matus, co founder and CEO of 0:00:59.076 --> 0:01:04.036 biobot Analytics. The company analyzes sewage samples from hundreds of 0:01:04.076 --> 0:01:07.436 water treatment plants across the US and Canada. They provide 0:01:07.436 --> 0:01:10.556 an aggregate picture of the cod status of tens of 0:01:10.676 --> 0:01:14.956 millions of people. Marianna's problem is this, how do you 0:01:15.036 --> 0:01:18.556 move beyond COVID to turn raw sewage into data that 0:01:18.596 --> 0:01:24.076 can help improve global public health. As it's become clear 0:01:24.076 --> 0:01:26.236 that sampling sewage is one of the best ways to 0:01:26.276 --> 0:01:29.996 track the COVID pandemic, the field of wastewater epidemiology has 0:01:30.076 --> 0:01:33.236 become a big deal. But when Marianna discovered the field, 0:01:33.356 --> 0:01:36.956 it wasn't particularly popular or flashy. It was years before 0:01:36.956 --> 0:01:39.796 the pandemic when she was working on her PhD and 0:01:39.916 --> 0:01:45.596 computational biology at MIT. But Marianna told me studying wastewater 0:01:45.716 --> 0:01:48.196 seemed like a great fit for what she wanted to do. 0:01:48.596 --> 0:01:52.796 When I came across this space of voicewatermology through through 0:01:52.796 --> 0:01:56.436 my laboratory, it was perfect, I think for me as 0:01:56.556 --> 0:02:01.156 a combination of cutting edge science but also like a 0:02:01.316 --> 0:02:06.716 very big societal impact. When you imagined having a big 0:02:06.756 --> 0:02:11.436 societal impact through your study of wastewater epidemiology, like what 0:02:11.556 --> 0:02:15.596 did you imagine? What was like your big, big dream. 0:02:15.716 --> 0:02:18.796 I grew up in Mexico City and in a you know, 0:02:18.836 --> 0:02:21.836 in a very sort of like slummy part of Mexico City, 0:02:21.916 --> 0:02:25.076 not on the nice part of Mexico City. So I 0:02:25.076 --> 0:02:33.556 grew up basically with zero government resources, you know, in 0:02:33.636 --> 0:02:37.356 areas that are ignored and that don't receive any sort 0:02:37.356 --> 0:02:41.476 of like government resources. And I grew up thinking that 0:02:41.636 --> 0:02:45.196 life was like that. And then my career took me 0:02:45.236 --> 0:02:49.196 to study in great universities and places, you know, in 0:02:49.236 --> 0:02:52.676 the Netherlands, in the UK, in Boston, and then I 0:02:52.716 --> 0:02:56.676 just began to realize that it actually it's not like that. 0:02:56.796 --> 0:02:59.756 Not every places like that, And to me, you know, 0:02:59.796 --> 0:03:01.836 I think like the more that dug into it through 0:03:01.876 --> 0:03:05.796 my peach D studies, like I realized that a big 0:03:05.836 --> 0:03:09.956 part of the solution starts with collecting the data to 0:03:10.116 --> 0:03:14.356 demonstrate those health disparities that you know, I know that 0:03:14.396 --> 0:03:16.316 are out there and everybody sort of like knows that 0:03:16.356 --> 0:03:19.716 are out there. But it's just hard to to really 0:03:19.796 --> 0:03:22.316 take action when you just don't have it in your 0:03:22.316 --> 0:03:25.556 face and not don't have a way to measure progress. 0:03:25.636 --> 0:03:28.516 So what I would imagine is, how can we use 0:03:29.196 --> 0:03:32.516 the data from the waste water to give everybody a 0:03:32.636 --> 0:03:37.916 voice and to create maps of what's happening near real 0:03:37.996 --> 0:03:43.196 time everywhere and to and to design action around that data. 0:03:43.316 --> 0:03:45.676 How did you go from that initial kind of big 0:03:45.796 --> 0:03:49.276 dream to starting a company? So when I came to MT, 0:03:49.756 --> 0:03:51.956 it sort of like I had all these dreams in 0:03:51.996 --> 0:03:56.116 my head about like, oh, imagine using science to you know, 0:03:56.436 --> 0:04:00.476 just impact society. Wouldn't that be amazing? But I didn't 0:04:00.556 --> 0:04:03.316 know what that meant in practice. And when I came 0:04:03.356 --> 0:04:09.476 to MT, I discovered entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship, h yes, I mean 0:04:09.556 --> 0:04:13.036 just like the concept that anybody can be a founder 0:04:13.116 --> 0:04:16.196 and start their own company, right, Like, just that concept, 0:04:16.756 --> 0:04:18.636 I would believe it or not. I mean, I just 0:04:18.916 --> 0:04:21.236 didn't know about that before I came to a m 0:04:21.236 --> 0:04:24.236 I T. I always thought only people that already have 0:04:24.916 --> 0:04:28.996 family money, or like you know that studied business for underground, 0:04:29.276 --> 0:04:31.996 they are the ones who can start businesses. And just 0:04:32.116 --> 0:04:35.516 that concept completely blew my mind. And I think it 0:04:35.556 --> 0:04:38.516 was for me like the missing piece. I realized, Oh, wow, well, 0:04:39.356 --> 0:04:41.836 then that's how I do it. That's how I create 0:04:41.916 --> 0:04:43.956 a company based on science to go and solve a 0:04:43.956 --> 0:04:47.196 big problem. One thing I heard you talking about and 0:04:47.276 --> 0:04:52.476 another interview was when you were starting the company, people 0:04:52.596 --> 0:04:57.116 seem to misunderstand and think that you should be starting 0:04:57.116 --> 0:04:59.516 a nonprofit instead of a company. Is that right and 0:04:59.556 --> 0:05:03.196 if so, can you tell me about that? Absolutely so. 0:05:04.076 --> 0:05:09.196 The idea of selling to government, the idea of of 0:05:09.636 --> 0:05:14.956 operating in the space of public health, and the idea 0:05:14.956 --> 0:05:19.516 of having two women co founders out of MIT basically 0:05:19.556 --> 0:05:22.716 two very technical women co founders. Kind of it was 0:05:22.756 --> 0:05:26.716 a kind of a perfect trifecta for investors to think 0:05:26.716 --> 0:05:31.956 about US as a nonprofit. You mentioned gender, You mentioned 0:05:31.996 --> 0:05:33.996 the fact that that you and your co founder are 0:05:33.996 --> 0:05:36.196 both women, and that that played into it. How did that? 0:05:36.796 --> 0:05:41.156 How did that work? What was going on there? Yeah, 0:05:41.436 --> 0:05:44.316 it seems that we you know, I had to be 0:05:44.436 --> 0:05:50.076 very proactive about kind of explaining I'm doing this not 0:05:50.196 --> 0:05:54.796 just to have public impact, not just to have a 0:05:54.876 --> 0:05:58.036 social impact. I'm doing this because I'm also looking to 0:05:58.116 --> 0:06:02.356 have a financial outcome. And I just found it funny 0:06:02.436 --> 0:06:05.156 that I had to be saying like, hey, I want 0:06:05.196 --> 0:06:08.556 to make money, like you know, I personally also want 0:06:08.596 --> 0:06:13.636 to make any Why wouldn't I? Right, So, okay, so 0:06:13.636 --> 0:06:16.876 so you found the company. So so let's jump to 0:06:17.356 --> 0:06:21.676 say twenty nineteen, like beginning of twenty twenty. Now you 0:06:21.716 --> 0:06:23.916 have this little company that's been up and running for 0:06:23.916 --> 0:06:27.156 a couple of years. It's analyzing wastewater, but you have 0:06:27.196 --> 0:06:29.916 no revenue. You have a staff of just like five people. 0:06:30.196 --> 0:06:32.596 You built this little machine that goes into the sewer 0:06:32.676 --> 0:06:36.116 to collect sewage, and you're working on one pilot project. 0:06:36.196 --> 0:06:39.396 And that project isn't even a fur infectious disease. Right, 0:06:39.436 --> 0:06:42.476 You're looking at opioids, You're you're sort of studying the 0:06:42.516 --> 0:06:47.116 opioid epidemic. And yet this is this moment when history 0:06:47.236 --> 0:06:50.716 is like barreling towards you. Right, this pandemic is about 0:06:50.756 --> 0:06:54.156 to you know, change everything, right, And so I'm curious 0:06:54.596 --> 0:06:56.956 when did you start to hear about, you know, about 0:06:56.996 --> 0:07:00.756 this new coronavirus outbreak. Yeah, I think for us, UM 0:07:00.996 --> 0:07:05.836 it really began to catch our attention in like early 0:07:06.036 --> 0:07:10.076 twenty twenty, like January twenty twenty. Do you remember any 0:07:10.156 --> 0:07:14.516 particular moments, any particular conversations or reading anything or talking 0:07:14.516 --> 0:07:19.596 to anybody. I mean definitely, so some of those like 0:07:19.716 --> 0:07:23.916 first conversations that happened where we had been forming a 0:07:23.956 --> 0:07:29.556 relationship with folks within HHS, like the federal HHS Department 0:07:29.556 --> 0:07:31.596 of Health and Human Services, the big federal Apartment of 0:07:31.636 --> 0:07:35.996 Health and Human Services in DC. So I remember we 0:07:35.996 --> 0:07:40.396 were in DC in February of twenty twenty, basically like 0:07:40.436 --> 0:07:43.236 already pitching that we should begin to test the waste 0:07:43.236 --> 0:07:46.556 water of all of the major airports across the country 0:07:46.596 --> 0:07:50.116 to start getting a sense of the level of import 0:07:50.996 --> 0:07:54.676 And we were told, well, this outbreak is going to 0:07:54.756 --> 0:07:58.116 be contained within two weeks, so it would be a 0:07:58.156 --> 0:08:01.436 waste of your resources to try to develop a solution 0:08:01.476 --> 0:08:03.836 around this now because you're not going to be ready 0:08:03.836 --> 0:08:05.516 in less than two weeks. They were like, by the 0:08:05.516 --> 0:08:07.196 time you figure out how to do this test in 0:08:07.196 --> 0:08:09.036 a few weeks, this all things going to have blown over. 0:08:09.396 --> 0:08:12.996 It's not going exactly so. But despite that sort of 0:08:13.036 --> 0:08:17.876 like very strong feedback, we came back from DC and 0:08:17.916 --> 0:08:20.636 we this was February of twenty twenty, and we make 0:08:20.716 --> 0:08:23.196 the decision that we were going to build a COVID 0:08:23.636 --> 0:08:26.876 solution based on the waste water and tell me about 0:08:26.876 --> 0:08:30.756 building that. We had to basically change everything. We had 0:08:30.836 --> 0:08:35.316 to throw away sort of like all of the progress 0:08:35.356 --> 0:08:38.236 that we had made up until that point to start 0:08:38.316 --> 0:08:43.436 over given the constraints at hand. Number one, this was 0:08:43.676 --> 0:08:47.676 there was a sense of emergency and that time was 0:08:47.716 --> 0:08:53.356 of the essence. So the idea of having to manufacture 0:08:53.436 --> 0:08:59.196 hardware in order to collect data at scale just seemed 0:08:59.236 --> 0:09:01.916 pretty hard or impossible in that moment. Also, do you 0:09:01.996 --> 0:09:04.156 know the supply chain issues all of You're not going 0:09:04.156 --> 0:09:05.956 to be able to make this special device. You're not 0:09:05.996 --> 0:09:07.796 gonna be only like a thousand of them in a 0:09:07.836 --> 0:09:11.476 couple of months or whatever, exactly exactly, So we decided, okay, 0:09:11.636 --> 0:09:16.556 where how else can we get wastewater easily? And we realize, oh, 0:09:16.596 --> 0:09:22.396 actually actually, there are sixteen thousand wastewater treatment plants in 0:09:22.436 --> 0:09:26.316 the US, covering eighty percent of the US population, and 0:09:26.956 --> 0:09:30.476 turns out most of them already have a similar type 0:09:30.476 --> 0:09:34.316 of equipment. So it's not portable, it's not as sophisticated, 0:09:35.036 --> 0:09:38.516 but it does the job at collecting that continues twenty 0:09:38.556 --> 0:09:42.676 four hour sample. The minimum viable product already exists at 0:09:42.756 --> 0:09:45.876 sixteen thousand wastewater plants all across the US, so we 0:09:45.876 --> 0:09:50.876 were like, okay, check. Second was the lab component. We 0:09:50.956 --> 0:09:55.556 had been building a chemistry platform, and obviously and COVID 0:09:55.836 --> 0:10:00.876 is caused by an RNA virus, so the detection or 0:10:00.916 --> 0:10:02.996 detest in the lab would need to be more of 0:10:03.036 --> 0:10:06.156 a molecular biology type of approach. We didn't have any 0:10:06.196 --> 0:10:12.756 of those capabilities, but we had raised seat round, like 0:10:12.796 --> 0:10:15.756 a you know, a four point two million dollars seat round, 0:10:16.276 --> 0:10:19.636 and so we had some money to just start getting 0:10:19.676 --> 0:10:23.636 some basic new equipment in the lab. And also we 0:10:23.676 --> 0:10:28.036 have a good relationship with my PhD advisor at MT 0:10:28.876 --> 0:10:32.876 so together with him, we actually used a lot of 0:10:33.116 --> 0:10:36.436 his lab early on in the pandemic and collaborated with 0:10:36.556 --> 0:10:39.836 his students. So you know, that's how we got started, 0:10:39.916 --> 0:10:45.916 and it took us like four weeks to just go 0:10:46.116 --> 0:10:50.676 from the decision point until having actually not just a 0:10:50.796 --> 0:10:56.756 proof that the test works with waste water, but also 0:10:57.196 --> 0:11:02.436 we wrote a scientific preprint, like a you know, a paper. 0:11:02.756 --> 0:11:04.796 So we were the first ones in the country to 0:11:05.236 --> 0:11:10.636 demonstrate that you can detect and quantify the virus causing 0:11:10.636 --> 0:11:14.716 COVID nineteen in wastewater samples and that it works well. 0:11:15.956 --> 0:11:18.116 And I think, you know, it was just from there 0:11:18.156 --> 0:11:21.676 that everything exploded. I mean, is there fear I assume 0:11:21.756 --> 0:11:25.756 that that there's no risk of transmitting the disease. I mean, 0:11:25.756 --> 0:11:30.276 it's obviously not transmitted through wastewater, but we're people afraid 0:11:30.316 --> 0:11:32.436 that it might be. We didn't know anything about COVID 0:11:32.476 --> 0:11:33.796 at the time. I mean, this is when I was 0:11:33.796 --> 0:11:37.076 still wiping off all my groceries with bleach, right, because 0:11:37.236 --> 0:11:40.516 literally we didn't know. Oh yes, there was a lot 0:11:40.556 --> 0:11:43.516 of concern. And actually that was you know, thank you 0:11:43.596 --> 0:11:46.636 for I feel like my brain probably like tried to 0:11:46.676 --> 0:11:50.196 forget that, but that was a very big deal. Like 0:11:50.236 --> 0:11:54.196 when we just started from for many reasons, nobody knew 0:11:54.956 --> 0:11:58.796 if the virus present in wastewater would be infectious. My 0:11:59.076 --> 0:12:02.796 very small team that we had. They were really afraid 0:12:03.116 --> 0:12:06.636 to have to handle the wastewater sample without knowing if 0:12:06.676 --> 0:12:10.036 they can get infected. So we came up with a 0:12:10.076 --> 0:12:15.676 solution for our lab where every every bottle of wastewater, 0:12:15.676 --> 0:12:19.756 example that arrives to buy a boat is first pasteurized 0:12:20.756 --> 0:12:25.996 in order to basically make it non infectious or like sterile. Yes. 0:12:26.116 --> 0:12:28.876 And the third thing was that I had just I 0:12:28.916 --> 0:12:32.356 was just pregnant at the time. I became pregnant in 0:12:32.396 --> 0:12:36.516 March of twenty twenty, my first pregnancy, my first you 0:12:36.556 --> 0:12:40.836 know baby, and I my husband and I also would 0:12:40.876 --> 0:12:43.916 go into the lab to model to the rest of 0:12:43.956 --> 0:12:47.676 our team that you know this is safe, Like you know, 0:12:47.796 --> 0:12:53.156 I'm pregnant, but I trust that the pasteurization is good 0:12:53.276 --> 0:12:56.476 enough to make this work safe and let me, you know, 0:12:56.596 --> 0:12:59.556 let me demonstrate that with my actions. At the time, 0:12:59.676 --> 0:13:02.796 it was a very big deal. So you have this idea, 0:13:03.236 --> 0:13:06.356 you have the proof that it works, You've convinced the 0:13:06.396 --> 0:13:08.796 staff at your company, at Bio Boat, that it's okay 0:13:08.836 --> 0:13:11.996 to do this. How do you get customers what happens next? 0:13:12.316 --> 0:13:15.036 So we designed a probono campaign where by About would 0:13:15.036 --> 0:13:20.716 absorb the cost of all of the testing for two months, 0:13:21.036 --> 0:13:24.636 and what happened it was beyond our wildest dreams, Like 0:13:25.316 --> 0:13:30.516 it exploded. It got picked up by the media. People 0:13:30.836 --> 0:13:38.236 loft this idea that you can fight COVID with poop. Poop. Yeah, 0:13:38.236 --> 0:13:40.716 you can fight COVID with poop. You know. That was 0:13:40.796 --> 0:13:43.196 that was basically the message being put out there. It 0:13:43.276 --> 0:13:48.716 went viral and we got in just the first ten 0:13:48.836 --> 0:13:52.596 days or so of announcing the campaign, we got four 0:13:52.756 --> 0:13:58.396 hundred plants nationwide wanting to enroll in the program. We 0:13:58.436 --> 0:14:03.116 had aspired to enroll up to one hundred, So it 0:14:03.196 --> 0:14:07.036 was it was crazy. The response was just crazy. But 0:14:07.196 --> 0:14:09.836 you know, that transition was tough because I guess also 0:14:09.876 --> 0:14:13.236 something that I haven't talked about is that in that 0:14:13.356 --> 0:14:17.116 early twenty twenty stage, when we were the first ones, 0:14:17.716 --> 0:14:23.996 the more established academics were skeptical and basically like recommending 0:14:24.956 --> 0:14:28.676 caution with these and slowing things down for us. And 0:14:29.116 --> 0:14:32.756 so it was a very Were they skeptical of wastewater 0:14:32.876 --> 0:14:37.356 sampling in general or were they skeptical of your company? 0:14:37.876 --> 0:14:44.836 Or was it both both both? So, up until twenty twenty, 0:14:45.516 --> 0:14:51.796 the wastewater epidemiology was a very niche and obscure area 0:14:51.836 --> 0:14:55.796 of science, So the entire field was a little bit like, 0:14:56.636 --> 0:15:01.156 you know, not very well known obviously. And if that 0:15:01.356 --> 0:15:04.956 was within science, just imagine within government, you know, like 0:15:04.956 --> 0:15:07.956 it was just nobody was saying, oh, I need wastewater data, 0:15:08.036 --> 0:15:10.796 like who can provide it for me? Why do you 0:15:10.836 --> 0:15:12.916 think that is? I mean, do you think it's partly 0:15:12.956 --> 0:15:16.396 like because it's poop, because it's sewage? Like why do 0:15:16.436 --> 0:15:19.836 you think people were ignoring this source of data? Really? 0:15:20.036 --> 0:15:22.956 I mean, is it because it's it's poop and people 0:15:22.956 --> 0:15:24.756 are kind of embarrassed by it don't like to talk 0:15:24.796 --> 0:15:28.156 about it? Like has that been a barrier too? I 0:15:28.196 --> 0:15:31.036 mean I think that No. I think that actually people 0:15:31.196 --> 0:15:35.436 love all of the poop jokes and poop humor. I 0:15:35.476 --> 0:15:38.276 feel like that actually tends to be like a plus. 0:15:38.276 --> 0:15:40.836 How do you feel about them at this point? Like 0:15:40.916 --> 0:15:43.156 are you tired of them? Do they work in your favor? 0:15:43.596 --> 0:15:45.556 Like our poop jokes like enough, I never want to 0:15:45.556 --> 0:15:47.796 hear a poop joke again? No, no, no, I love it. 0:15:47.836 --> 0:15:50.636 I love it. And our company culture, you know, celebrates 0:15:50.676 --> 0:15:55.276 the poop humor quite a lot with okay, our you know, 0:15:55.396 --> 0:15:59.236 branding and suave and you know, we we love it. 0:15:59.396 --> 0:16:01.716 We love the users of the poop emoji or they're 0:16:01.756 --> 0:16:05.276 like particularly very big. Oh yeah, the poop emoji is 0:16:05.276 --> 0:16:09.556 the most use emoji in the bay about slack, it 0:16:09.676 --> 0:16:12.116 makes sense. I mean, it's why they're used even at 0:16:12.156 --> 0:16:15.836 places that have nothing to do with it. Right, So yes, no, 0:16:15.956 --> 0:16:17.876 I think that, you know, I think that the barrier 0:16:18.796 --> 0:16:22.516 to research and to you know, first to research and 0:16:22.556 --> 0:16:26.556 then to the adoption of the data is just that 0:16:26.636 --> 0:16:30.156 the bar to get the data in is very high 0:16:30.236 --> 0:16:33.516 in the sense that there's a lot of operational and 0:16:33.676 --> 0:16:38.836 logistical work in order to get data. So when you 0:16:38.876 --> 0:16:43.116 are working within a university or within a government agency, 0:16:43.796 --> 0:16:47.396 who really has the time to be you know, building 0:16:47.676 --> 0:16:51.556 kits to transport wastewater, learning how to the regulations to 0:16:51.636 --> 0:16:56.516 transport it going out there, or finding the relationships to 0:16:56.556 --> 0:16:59.316 send you the waste water in doing all of that 0:16:59.476 --> 0:17:03.316 groundwork in the lab, right groundwork. Right, It's very logistical. 0:17:03.556 --> 0:17:06.716 It's not like high minded, it's not fancy math. It's 0:17:06.796 --> 0:17:11.236 just getting appealed to the lab. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So 0:17:11.316 --> 0:17:13.356 when I was a PITCHD student that in my t 0:17:14.796 --> 0:17:19.756 I was basically like the only one like willing to 0:17:19.796 --> 0:17:23.876 do the groundwork because I started working on always what 0:17:24.076 --> 0:17:27.476 epidemiology during my PhD. That's what my pitchd PSIS was about. 0:17:28.476 --> 0:17:32.876 But you know, I really struggled with just like recruiting 0:17:32.916 --> 0:17:37.276 a team around me, because folks were wanting to help 0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:41.516 with the data analysis, the data visualization, but not the 0:17:41.596 --> 0:17:44.996 eighty percent groundwork that goes behind it. So nobody wants 0:17:45.556 --> 0:17:49.556 get the proof exactly. So that's why I thought, always thought, 0:17:49.596 --> 0:17:57.316 you know, if this science is going to really go mainstream, 0:17:57.436 --> 0:18:02.036 it needs an organization dedicated like one to it so 0:18:02.036 --> 0:18:05.356 that we can do that around work and then the scientists. Yes, 0:18:05.516 --> 0:18:08.316 of course, the power is in the data, in the 0:18:08.356 --> 0:18:10.396 insights that you can get out of it, but you 0:18:10.436 --> 0:18:12.876 know there's an eighty percent around work behind it. Well, 0:18:12.916 --> 0:18:14.796 I mean maybe that's part of the case for a 0:18:14.796 --> 0:18:18.756 for profit company, right Like profit is a very good 0:18:18.796 --> 0:18:23.996 incentive to do groundwork, absolutely absolutely Well. How big is 0:18:24.036 --> 0:18:28.876 the company now? Oh yeah, buy about now has one 0:18:28.956 --> 0:18:31.756 hundred employees. How much revenue do you have? More or less? 0:18:32.396 --> 0:18:37.956 This year? We are on track to make over twenty 0:18:37.956 --> 0:18:41.956 million dollars in revenue, okay, which is great also to 0:18:42.036 --> 0:18:44.516 be here given that two years ago we were basically 0:18:44.596 --> 0:18:47.796 pre revenue. So yes, two years ago was zero. From 0:18:47.876 --> 0:18:53.756 zero to twenty million, there's a lot. Are you profitable, No, 0:18:53.996 --> 0:18:57.996 not yet. I mean we are investing heavily in our 0:18:58.156 --> 0:19:00.476 R and D so that we can look at other 0:19:00.516 --> 0:19:06.676 types of data. So story so far. Three years ago, 0:19:07.156 --> 0:19:10.156 Mariana barely had a company, and waste water surveillance was 0:19:10.196 --> 0:19:14.076 this little niche thing in the US. And then by 0:19:14.116 --> 0:19:16.956 the beginning of this year, when the omicron wave hit 0:19:16.996 --> 0:19:21.276 the country, BAA was this big, real company. Wastewater surveillance 0:19:21.356 --> 0:19:24.156 was one of the most important tools public health officials 0:19:24.236 --> 0:19:27.116 used to figure out where cases were spiking, so that 0:19:27.156 --> 0:19:29.956 they could direct resources into the right neighborhoods and you know, 0:19:30.276 --> 0:19:33.956 plan for surges and hospital admissions. And the story is 0:19:33.996 --> 0:19:37.396 not over in a minute. What we still don't know 0:19:37.596 --> 0:19:48.356 about poop and disease. It's a lot. Now back to 0:19:48.396 --> 0:19:52.396 the show. And one thing I'm curious about, Well, what 0:19:52.596 --> 0:19:55.036 is your company's moat? Right? Like, how is what you 0:19:55.156 --> 0:19:57.956 do not just some commodity thing that anybody with the 0:19:58.036 --> 0:20:04.236 lab can do. Yeah, I think that that's a great question. Everybody, anybody, 0:20:04.276 --> 0:20:09.036 anybody out there could go and let's say open amunthole 0:20:10.516 --> 0:20:14.796 and get a bucket in pull up wastewater, take it 0:20:14.796 --> 0:20:18.196 to a lab and they would get a number, a 0:20:18.356 --> 0:20:20.996 number meaning like an amount of COVID that's in there 0:20:21.076 --> 0:20:23.716 or something. You may get an amount of COVID, you make, 0:20:23.916 --> 0:20:27.236 an amount of opioids, an amount of influenza, right like 0:20:27.596 --> 0:20:30.836 any any number. You may get a number, But what 0:20:30.876 --> 0:20:36.516 does that number mean? Like that number in isolation really 0:20:36.556 --> 0:20:42.196 doesn't mean anything. So our secret sauce is how do 0:20:42.276 --> 0:20:48.716 we create how do we make wastewater a data platform? 0:20:48.756 --> 0:20:53.996 And that really means it's a systems level type of 0:20:54.036 --> 0:20:58.396 design and product. We actually need to use the same 0:20:58.436 --> 0:21:03.996 method in every sample. If we want to calculate, if 0:21:03.996 --> 0:21:07.436 we want to compare across time, if we want to 0:21:07.476 --> 0:21:13.716 compare across locations, we want to build a state statewide trend, 0:21:13.756 --> 0:21:16.156 if we want to compare regions, if we want to 0:21:16.236 --> 0:21:21.036 calculate a national average, it's imperative to actually use the 0:21:21.156 --> 0:21:26.716 same methods at every stage for every sample. Otherwise you 0:21:26.756 --> 0:21:30.436 don't have that comparability wastewater. Again, the power of the 0:21:30.476 --> 0:21:34.356 wastewater isn't about what you about the number that you 0:21:34.396 --> 0:21:38.636 get from a single wastewater sample. The power of wastewater 0:21:38.756 --> 0:21:43.076 is about having that bird's eye view, that systems level 0:21:43.156 --> 0:21:46.196 view of what's happening in an entire country, in an 0:21:46.316 --> 0:21:50.956 entire state. You can drill in more geographically narrow, but 0:21:51.036 --> 0:21:54.316 you can also zoom out. That's the platform, that's the 0:21:54.356 --> 0:21:57.596 power that we're building. So in order to accomplish that, 0:21:58.316 --> 0:22:01.876 you know, that's where we come in, all of the relationships, 0:22:01.956 --> 0:22:07.596 all of the scale that eight you know, groundwork that 0:22:07.636 --> 0:22:12.316 I talked about. To accomplish that level of visibility, that's 0:22:12.316 --> 0:22:14.836 a tough problem. So it's like a network effect. There's 0:22:14.836 --> 0:22:17.556 a network effect thing people would want to use your 0:22:17.596 --> 0:22:20.756 company because you have the most data and therefore you 0:22:20.916 --> 0:22:24.796 have the best understanding of what one particular sample means 0:22:24.836 --> 0:22:26.516 because you can put it in the context of all 0:22:26.516 --> 0:22:30.876 the other data that you have gotten, have processed exactly exactly. 0:22:30.996 --> 0:22:35.516 So we have the largest network of sites in the world. 0:22:36.796 --> 0:22:40.716 It's mostly US, some Canada. How big is it now? 0:22:41.596 --> 0:22:45.516 We have over five hundred sites. What's something you haven't 0:22:45.516 --> 0:22:48.236 figured out yet? What's a problem your story of still 0:22:48.276 --> 0:22:50.156 trying to figure out how to solve Maybe you've tried 0:22:50.196 --> 0:22:52.556 it hasn't quite worked yet. What's something you're still working 0:22:52.596 --> 0:22:56.676 on in the lab. There is a lot of interest 0:22:56.756 --> 0:23:01.196 in looking at different targets, so not just COVID, but 0:23:01.276 --> 0:23:06.876 also influenza, neural virus. You can you know, at least 0:23:06.956 --> 0:23:10.556 keeps going right like monkey box where right now in 0:23:10.636 --> 0:23:13.396 advanced R and D for monkey pops, we're gonna have 0:23:13.396 --> 0:23:16.036 a start testing with water for monkey pops too. But 0:23:16.956 --> 0:23:20.356 it remains a challenge to know kind of how to 0:23:21.236 --> 0:23:23.516 which types of data we can collect and how to 0:23:23.556 --> 0:23:29.996 interpret them because we don't really know which pathogens are 0:23:30.676 --> 0:23:36.276 shed in poop. Huh, that's surprising. I would think people 0:23:36.316 --> 0:23:38.076 would just sort of have figured that out by now. 0:23:38.196 --> 0:23:39.556 Is that Does that go back to the fact that 0:23:39.636 --> 0:23:44.716 it's kind of an understudied area exactly exactly. There's a 0:23:44.756 --> 0:23:48.316 lot of information about how you can diagnose a disease 0:23:48.556 --> 0:23:52.996 in a person via like a serom sample, via maybe 0:23:53.036 --> 0:23:57.116 a blood test, yeah, a blood test, or maybe a 0:23:57.716 --> 0:24:00.556 you know, a swab or like a you know, a 0:24:00.596 --> 0:24:05.036 nasal swab or a saliva suab sometimes in in p 0:24:05.796 --> 0:24:09.596 But but pooh, I mean, why would they have to 0:24:09.676 --> 0:24:12.796 I mean, the clinic the worst way to get us 0:24:12.836 --> 0:24:15.436 to a sample for the doctor, right exactly, So so 0:24:15.476 --> 0:24:18.316 for the doctor like you know, again, poop is an 0:24:18.396 --> 0:24:23.196 understudied like sort of like diagnostic matrix. So you know, 0:24:23.276 --> 0:24:26.476 one wild dream of mine is for us to develop 0:24:27.076 --> 0:24:31.156 the clinical collaborations to to be able to know in 0:24:31.276 --> 0:24:36.236 people like how different diseases are um shedding in poop, 0:24:36.356 --> 0:24:39.676 because that that will help us to understand which targets 0:24:39.676 --> 0:24:44.036 will be easier to track via the waste water and 0:24:44.156 --> 0:24:47.916 how to interpret it. You mentioned sort of starting out 0:24:47.956 --> 0:24:52.196 in the field with this the dream of being able 0:24:52.276 --> 0:24:56.956 to to look at a city like Mexico City and 0:24:57.036 --> 0:24:58.916 get you know, sort of a map of what's going 0:24:58.956 --> 0:25:02.076 on with the health of people in the city. How 0:25:02.076 --> 0:25:03.796 do you get to there from where you are now? 0:25:04.276 --> 0:25:08.356 Because we have done some pilots in Mexico Ecuador Ry 0:25:09.476 --> 0:25:12.756 in partnership already with a World Bank, so you know, 0:25:12.916 --> 0:25:14.796 it's kind of how do we build on top of 0:25:14.836 --> 0:25:18.636 those early pilots that were very successful. So you sample, 0:25:18.916 --> 0:25:22.916 you know, big sewage systems in the US that allows 0:25:22.916 --> 0:25:26.236 you to capture something like eighty percent of the population, 0:25:26.716 --> 0:25:29.516 but it seems like in large parts of the developing 0:25:29.556 --> 0:25:32.636 world you have places you know, that are less developed, 0:25:32.676 --> 0:25:35.116 where where there are not sewage systems. What do you 0:25:35.156 --> 0:25:39.356 do there. There's many areas that don't have any sort 0:25:39.356 --> 0:25:44.356 of sanitation, right, so I think that for those areas 0:25:45.076 --> 0:25:48.956 there's just immediate action, which is we can use basically 0:25:49.036 --> 0:25:54.156 the same type of sampling approaches to open sewers, like 0:25:54.196 --> 0:25:58.036 basically which are rivers where the waste makes it into 0:25:58.076 --> 0:26:01.276 the river, and that that is possible, that that works, 0:26:01.316 --> 0:26:04.156 that's how some people already do waste. What are epithimolity 0:26:04.156 --> 0:26:07.756 You work in areas without the infrastructure. But I think 0:26:07.756 --> 0:26:13.516 you're right at over time this technology could be a 0:26:13.596 --> 0:26:17.156 new reason to invest in waste, what in building the 0:26:17.196 --> 0:26:21.436 waste water infrastructure where it doesn't exist, because now we're 0:26:21.476 --> 0:26:26.076