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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, all right, take it easy, baby, take it,

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Speaker 1: make it last all night.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, of course, different song. Yeah, that's going with

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Speaker 2: slow ride.

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Speaker 1: Let's see here.

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Speaker 2: We should roast each other again. Apparently that was kind Okay.

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Speaker 1: Look, I mean that's fine and all, but A, it's

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Speaker 1: got it. You can't force it. No, it sounds bad.

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Speaker 1: And B I could do it every other episode. If

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Speaker 1: it came up in every episode, I would start to

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Speaker 1: get I wouldn't enjoy doing the show. It's hard for

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Speaker 1: me to play playfully roast. Not even that it's like

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Speaker 1: I can't take it, can't dish it out kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: But just it's just I don't like it. That's fair, well,

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Speaker 1: not even roasting. Roasting's fine if you're like teasing and stuff,

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Speaker 1: but bickering, right, you know, I need everyone to agree

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Speaker 1: with me at all times. No, that's not it.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna have a tough, tough life.

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Speaker 1: So far, it's been great because I've been right pretty

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Speaker 1: much every single time, constantly forever.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for.

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Speaker 2: A great God that you were right all the time.

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Speaker 1: Thank you? Or else, Look, you'll know what happens.

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Speaker 2: Oh ship am I married to I've in the terrible, Eli,

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Speaker 2: the terrible? Is that what you would if you were

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Speaker 2: a tzar? What would you call yourself?

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Speaker 1: If I was a czar, I'd be Eli? Hmmm, I honestly,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can't give yourself your own tzar nickname?

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Speaker 2: You know, I guess that's true.

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Speaker 1: So what is that? What am I? Eli? The ambivalence?

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Speaker 2: Well, in that moment, you're quite a caretaker. Oh maybe Eli,

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Speaker 2: the amiable. Oh okay, that would be a cute name

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Speaker 2: for you.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't exactly strike fear into the hearts of my enemies.

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Speaker 2: What maybe you are presiding over an unprecedented era of peace.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you. Let me tell you I'd better

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Speaker 1: be because I would fare much better in that world.

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Speaker 2: That sounds great and more time, because.

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Speaker 1: They would be like, sir, the British are attacking, and

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Speaker 1: I'd be like, I don't like bickering. Can we just

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Speaker 1: move past this? Can we just pretend this fight never happened.

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Speaker 1: I'd much rather just give each other the silent treatment

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Speaker 1: for an hour and then we just continue on with

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Speaker 1: our day as if none of this ever happened. So

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Speaker 1: they also hate.

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Speaker 2: That, I know you would. Yeah, I don't know. I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know. Well, what would you call

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Speaker 2: me you?

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Speaker 1: Oh, you'd be Diana, the overworked.

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Speaker 2: Oh I feel like as bizarre. I should be taken

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Speaker 2: it easy.

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Speaker 1: You should, but you would not. You would. They'd be like, uh, sorryna, Diana,

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Speaker 1: it's time. Everything is fine, the country's at peace, the

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Speaker 1: economy is doing well. And you'd be like, I need

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Speaker 1: a few more projects.

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Speaker 2: Please, let's build a cathedral.

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Speaker 1: Like we have so many cathedrals.

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Speaker 2: Well, build another one. We'll put a couple of little

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Speaker 2: stages in there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, cabaret to a theater show exactly.

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Speaker 2: The cathedral cabaret. Actually would totally do a cathedral cabaret.

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Speaker 2: That sounds great. Oh no, anybody with the cathedral, reach out.

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Speaker 1: There we go. Here comes the next six months of

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Speaker 1: our lives.

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Speaker 2: Somehow, I'm sorry I planned a cabaret.

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Speaker 1: Well, when you plan a cabaret, we plan a cabaret.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, babe. That's where the partnership is about.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm just saying that's how it is. I'm not

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Speaker 1: volunteering that.

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Speaker 2: I thought you were trying to be supportive.

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Speaker 1: No, No, it's a I don't have a choice.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because.

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Speaker 1: I'm innately so supportive because I'm Eli the amiable. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's only one Tzar I want to talk about today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, me too, the czar who's been living in our

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Speaker 3: hearts for the last week or so, Ivan the Fourth,

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Speaker 3: also known as Ivan the Terrible.

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Speaker 1: If you joined us in the last episode, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know why you wouldn't have, if you're here now,

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Speaker 1: we learned that Ivan the Fourth was named ruler of

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Speaker 1: Russia at just three years old when his father died,

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Speaker 1: but he was raised by the Shwisky family of boyars,

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Speaker 1: who took control of Russia after probably poisoning his mother,

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Speaker 1: Elena Glinskaya. When Ivan was sixteen, he crowned himself the

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Speaker 1: first Czar of Russia and started cutting off the boyar's power,

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Speaker 1: mostly by cutting off their heads. Effective but he married

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Speaker 1: honest Assiya Romanov, who loved him and helped him be

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Speaker 1: a great ruler by cooling his horrible temper. But when

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Speaker 1: she died at twenty nine years old, Ivan was certain

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Speaker 1: that the Boyars had poisoned her as well. Now he

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Speaker 1: would marry again and again and again, taking a total

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Speaker 1: of eight wives in his life. None of them, however,

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Speaker 1: fared too well, and ultimately neither did Russia. So let's

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Speaker 1: hear about the Tsar's next seven wives and how this

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Speaker 1: guy went from being Ivan the Fine to Ivan the

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Speaker 1: not so good, all the way down to Ivan the terrible.

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Speaker 2: Let go, Hey, let friends come listen. Well, Eli and

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Speaker 2: Diana got some stories to tell. There's no match making

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Speaker 2: a romantic tips. It's just about ridiculous relation, ships, a love.

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Speaker 2: There might be any type of person at all, and

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Speaker 2: abstract concept or a concrete wall. But if there's a

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Speaker 2: story where the second glance, so ridiculous romance a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: The boy Yards, if you remember from part one, are

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Speaker 1: basically the ruling class of nobility in Russia, and they've

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Speaker 1: always held a lot of power. They had poisoned Ivan's mother,

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Speaker 1: and they likely poisoned on Us the Sea, Ivan's first wife,

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Speaker 1: and after this, Ivan had multiple people jailed and executed.

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Speaker 1: But Ivan didn't really work with a lot of evidence

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Speaker 1: when he was accusing the Boyars of doing all these

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Speaker 1: evil things. And while yes, some of these Boyars were

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Speaker 1: rich schemers working to secure their own power, Ivan's hatred

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Speaker 1: of them as a whole wasn't really very focused, and

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Speaker 1: it even started to spill over into the civilian population.

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Speaker 1: But you know what, all of that can go on

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Speaker 1: hold because Ivan Vassilievitch was now Moscovie's number one most

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Speaker 1: eligible bachelor.

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Speaker 2: Ladies, ladies, lady.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 2: The first idea for Ivan to remarry was Katarzhina Yagyelunka,

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Speaker 2: a Polish princess, and at the time of anest Dosia's death,

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Speaker 2: Ivan was fighting a major war between Russia and basically everyone,

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, the Polish, the Swedish, the Danes, and

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Speaker 2: the Cossacks in the south. So if a marriage made

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Speaker 2: an ally out of Poland, it was a pretty good

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Speaker 2: idea classic reason for his art to get married.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're at war, but I married one of

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Speaker 1: your daughters, so now we're not at warning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, everything you're mad about it's over now now. I

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Speaker 2: haven't thought it made sense, and Katarzina's brother was into it,

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Speaker 2: but Katarzina herself was apparently crying her eyes out at

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Speaker 2: the idea. But then another woman was presented to Ivan

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Speaker 2: in fifteen sixty one, Mariya Temryokovna. She was the daughter

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Speaker 2: of a prince from Kebardia, an independent country located near

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Speaker 2: what is the border of Russia and Georgia today, so

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Speaker 2: this would ally region that could help them fend off

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Speaker 2: the Cossacks in the south. So another good, powerful alliance.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that so interesting? I mean, these the Kabardians weren't

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Speaker 1: fighting with the Russians at a time, but they would

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Speaker 1: have been strong allies. But even thinking back to him

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Speaker 1: trying to marry out of a war with Poland, it

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Speaker 1: just so clearly to me shows how desperately they both

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Speaker 1: want the war to end and they just need any excuse.

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Speaker 2: I agree, you know, it's not like today that like

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Speaker 2: Putin would be like, oh right, Ukraine, send me one

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Speaker 2: of your lady and we'll solve this the old fashioned way.

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Speaker 2: Like that shit don't work anymore.

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Speaker 1: So Maria Temriyukovna's father presented her to Ivan the fourth,

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Speaker 1: and Ivan went absolutely gaga for this lady. She was

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Speaker 1: maybe the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen, and he

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Speaker 1: suddenly is like kata Argina, who I don't even care

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Speaker 1: that girl's crying anyway, I'm not gonna marry her. Maria

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Speaker 1: was gorgeous, she was rich, she was royalty from a

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Speaker 1: foreign country that would make a great partner to Russia.

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Speaker 1: There was really only one problem. Maria was a Sunni Muslim.

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Speaker 1: Now Russian folklore says that on her deathbed, Ivan's first wife, Anastasia,

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Speaker 1: had told Ivan, whatever you do, you've got to marry

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Speaker 1: a Christian.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, final words, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean they were Orthodox and Catholics, and they were

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Speaker 1: pretty strict about, you know, keeping it in the family,

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Speaker 1: so to speak. So Ivan is thinking like, oh boy, well,

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Speaker 1: my ex wife did specifically warn me about this. But

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, this lady is super hot.

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Speaker 5: She's fine, absolutely spotty, attid, malicious, like I am in

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Speaker 5: with this woman.

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Speaker 2: I love the idea of the Tzar. Ivan like bumpin'

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Speaker 2: yeah at aliens. So he decided Maria is the one,

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Speaker 2: and they married on August twenty first, just four days

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Speaker 2: before Ivan's thirty first birthday. But it was quickly clear

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Speaker 2: that nobody liked Maria. She was seen as manipulative and vindictive.

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Speaker 2: She refused to respect local customs, and she is very

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Speaker 2: rude to her step children, Ivan surviving sons, Ivan Junior

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Speaker 2: and Theodor, as opposed to Ana Sessia. Maria seemed to

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Speaker 2: encourage Ivan's ruthlessness, but actually Ivan didn't like her much himself,

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Speaker 2: and that just added to his general anger and paranoia.

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Speaker 2: They had one son together in fifteen sixty three, named Vasili,

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Speaker 2: but he died just a few months later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, now Ivan already basically trusted no one. We know this.

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Speaker 1: But the war also was not going well, and Russia

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Speaker 1: was struggling with drought and famine. Peasants were angry, they

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Speaker 1: were quitting their jobs, dogs and cats were living together,

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Speaker 1: just mass hysteria. And then in fifteen sixty four, Ivan's

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Speaker 1: good friend, close advisor, and military leader Andrey Krebsky suddenly

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Speaker 1: defected and joined the Lithuanians. And he cited Ivan's growing

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Speaker 1: distrust of everyone, and he was worried about all these

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Speaker 1: repressive ideas that the Czar was forming. Krebski led a

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Speaker 1: Polish Lithuanian force against his own people, the Russians, and

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Speaker 1: he decimated them in several battles.

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Speaker 2: Or kicked him to the Krebski Keurbsk, I love it.

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Speaker 1: So at this point, you know, Ivan's been betrayed again.

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Speaker 1: The boyars are acting crazy, the clergy was embezzling, the

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Speaker 1: peasants were restless. So Ivan the Fourth just left, He

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Speaker 1: packed his bags, He grabbed his wife Maria, and he

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Speaker 1: left Moscow without telling anybody for Alexandrov, and he sent

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Speaker 1: a letter back to the Boyars in Moscow and said,

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Speaker 1: y'all suck, I'm gonna quit.

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Speaker 2: Damn Yeah, nobody wants to work anymore. Well, the Boyar

200
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Speaker 2: court had always been locked in a battle with Ivan,

201
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Speaker 2: but they took a look at the state of Muscovie,

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Speaker 2: particularly the desperate and furious peasant class, and realized they

203
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Speaker 2: were one hundred percent shit out a lukski uh. They

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Speaker 2: wanted all this power over the Zar, but they realized

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Speaker 2: that if he was fully gone, they had basically no

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Speaker 2: power at all. It can't be the power behind the

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Speaker 2: throne if there's no one on the.

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Speaker 1: Throne right exactly.

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Speaker 2: So they followed him to Alexandrov and they begged him

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Speaker 2: to come back in rule Russia. And he said, okay,

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Speaker 2: but on one condition, I get absolute power. I want

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Speaker 2: to be able to condemn and execute people. I decide

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Speaker 2: our traders, and I want to confiscate their land, and

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Speaker 2: I don't want them no interference from yell Boyars or

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Speaker 2: the church. Woww. Some historians say that Maria Temryokovna herself

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Speaker 2: gave Ivan this idea she sounds like she could easily

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Speaker 2: come up with it, but of course common to blame

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Speaker 2: a lady for some shitta guy does the boy. Our

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Speaker 2: delegation looked at each other awkwardly, turned back to Ivan

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Speaker 2: and they said, yeah, man, whatever you want. And thus

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Speaker 2: began the Abridge Nina, one of the darkest and scariest

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Speaker 2: periods in Russian history, right.

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Speaker 1: The Abridge Nina was this huge territorial state within the

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Speaker 1: borders of Russia, where Ivan had absolute power and control

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Speaker 1: and could execute people at will if he felt like

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Speaker 1: they were being disloyal. So it's a large chunk of land.

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Speaker 1: It encompassed all the major cities, you know, not Siberia,

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Speaker 1: but the populous part. At will. He could confiscate land

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Speaker 1: of people he felt like were traders, and he could

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Speaker 1: kick their families out to go live in the Zim's Gena,

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Speaker 1: which was the Russian land outside the Opportunita, so the

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Speaker 1: place you didn't want to be. To enforce this brutal

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Speaker 1: new rain, he formed a guard called the Oprichnik. The

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Speaker 1: Oprechnik was basically Ivan's private personal army. They were a

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Speaker 1: thousand hand picked super soldiers who dressed in all black

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Speaker 1: and rode black horses. Tied to their saddles was a

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Speaker 1: severed wolf's head, which symbolized the Oprechnick sniffing out the

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Speaker 1: Tsar's enemies and the hounds of Hell nipping at their heels.

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Speaker 1: Ivan himself off and rode at the front of the horde,

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Speaker 1: and he affixed iron jaws to his wolf's head that

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Speaker 1: would open and snap shut as his horse gallon.

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Speaker 2: All Right, I can't approve of a brutal private army, right,

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Speaker 2: but the vibes are incredible metal Again, I feel like

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Speaker 2: an opeh album is about to start.

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Speaker 1: It's like, I don't like severed wolf's heads, but no, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this was like a movie. I'd be like, these guys

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Speaker 1: are terrifying and kind of awesome, Like, you know, I

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Speaker 1: definitely dresses this for Dragon Con if this was just

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Speaker 1: a fantasy.

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Speaker 2: Of course, of course, of course it is.

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Speaker 1: That's very very ring rate vibes, very true.

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Speaker 2: But I mean that's sort of like such an interesting

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Speaker 2: thing about historic armies and stuff is that they're like

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Speaker 2: you have to defeat them, you know, kind of they're

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Speaker 2: morale first, that's the first thing. So if you have

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Speaker 2: the right look or like even like the rebel yell

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Speaker 2: or whatever, like there's just so many armies that had

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Speaker 2: their little thing that was like, let us freak them

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Speaker 2: out before we ever strike a single blow.

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Speaker 1: Striking fear into the hearts of your enemies. Key in

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Speaker 1: all things. I remember in uh, speaking of movies, I

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Speaker 1: remember in the film Little Giants in the early nineties

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Speaker 1: with Rick Moranish and playing a football coach. I'm getting there.

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Speaker 1: It was all, you know. It was like a ragtag

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Speaker 1: group of misfits playing football, little little pee wee football,

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Speaker 1: and one of the kids had real bad tummy troubles,

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Speaker 1: so we always had He was always taking alka seltzer

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Speaker 1: and when they were trying to figure out how to

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Speaker 1: intimidate the other team because they are all little nerds,

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Speaker 1: he told them all to put an alka seltzer tab

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Speaker 1: in their mouth and they all started foaming at the mouth.

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Speaker 1: So they all pot one in their mouth while they're

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Speaker 1: all lining up to play football, and the other kids

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Speaker 1: freak out because all the whole team full of nerds

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Speaker 1: is all foaming at the mouth, like do.

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Speaker 2: You have rabies? That's a really big problem.

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Speaker 1: It's great. So just like the old preach nig Giants.

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Speaker 2: Like Little giants being the natural air of the operation.

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Speaker 1: I wish that line had been in the movie. Like, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I remember the Preachnick Rick Maris is like, no, we

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Speaker 1: can't carry around severed wolf heads onto the football.

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Speaker 2: Field, but we can learn a lesson about intimidation.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 2: On their acceptance, recruits to the Opreachnik swore loyalty to Ivan,

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Speaker 2: his sons, his wife Maria, and also swore quote not

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Speaker 2: to eat or drink with the zem's Gina and not

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Speaker 2: to have anything in common with them. Now, these guys

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Speaker 2: terrorized the Russian civilian population. They executed anyone who was

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Speaker 2: suspected to be disloyal to Ivan, who had declared himself

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Speaker 2: the quote hand of God.

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Speaker 1: Always a good sign and a leader.

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Speaker 2: Okay. Citizens were terribly treated. They were quarter boiled, impaled,

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Speaker 2: or even roasted over an open fire. If Ivan declared

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Speaker 2: them treeson is oh God. If their families were lucky,

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Speaker 2: they were exiled. Often they were killed too. Now you'd

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Speaker 2: think this would be all about controlling people through fear,

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Speaker 2: right striking terror into the hearts of the populace.

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Speaker 1: Right, Like I'm going to go around and murder some

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Speaker 1: folks so that nobody acts up like, that's my real reason, right,

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Speaker 1: right exactly.

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Speaker 2: But because Ivan was what modern psychologists call loopier than

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Speaker 2: a cross eyed cowboy. Yes, as a soup sandwich.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, crazier than a cat in a room full of

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Speaker 1: rocking chairs.

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Speaker 2: That boy's cheese lit all the way off his cracker.

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Speaker 1: They're all the clinical modern diagnos.

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Speaker 2: Le yes, So a lot of the time, you know,

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Speaker 2: he's just imagining trees and his behavior. Hen't have proof

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Speaker 2: for any.

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Speaker 1: Of this, Yeah, no, but he really believes it.

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Speaker 2: Of course, he's just like steriously paranoid. And of course

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Speaker 2: if you had a problem with how he was doing things,

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Speaker 2: you were next in line for whatever torture he could

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Speaker 2: come up with. So it's just like no criticism, no

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Speaker 2: looking at him the wrong way anything. No one just

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Speaker 2: set him off.

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Speaker 1: No one could stand off to the side and say,

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Speaker 1: I don't Yeah, this guy sucks, but he didn't actively

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Speaker 1: commit treason. Are you sure we should boil him alive?

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Speaker 1: Because Ivan would just turn and say, oh, I guess

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Speaker 1: you're a trader too, So add him.

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Speaker 2: To the pot, another one for the pot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, uh, brutal. And that's it's so much harder when

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Speaker 1: these people really believe it, you know, like, it's one

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Speaker 1: thing if someone's aggressively manipulative and knows that they're lying

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Speaker 1: to everyone, But when you have someone who's so crazy

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Speaker 1: they believe their own crazy theories, well and it get scared.

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Speaker 2: Yet it must be said, he has a lot of

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Speaker 2: reason to believe them, because it's not like people ain't

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Speaker 2: been poisoning people all around him and stuff. Absolutely, so

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Speaker 2: he does have some things that he is clearly blown

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Speaker 2: off to a very very upsetting paranoid bubble that he's

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Speaker 2: right right.

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Speaker 1: What he needs is someone to talk to. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he needs a therapist, and honest, I mean honestly, that

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Speaker 1: might be part of what him and honest to see

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Speaker 1: his marriage. You know why that was so beneficial because

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Speaker 1: it may have been we don't know, but it may

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Speaker 1: have been a situation where he sat down and was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I think everyone is out to get me.

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Speaker 1: This guy looked at me funny when I walked down

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Speaker 1: the hall, and she was like, honey, sometimes people just

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Speaker 1: look at you funny, like yours are You're the most

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Speaker 1: important guy in the room. And he's like, oh, you're right,

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Speaker 1: you're right, okay. So that he was able to discern

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Speaker 1: more who was a real threat and who he was

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Speaker 1: just getting feeling a little paranoid about. But once she

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Speaker 1: got poisoned, all bets are off. Everyone could have been

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Speaker 1: out to get him, and no one was there to

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Speaker 1: suggest that he was overreacting. So all this to say,

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Speaker 1: Ivan had become a ruthless, brutal monster and an all

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Speaker 1: powerful dictator during his marriage to Maria, just even more

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Speaker 1: than before, of course, So let's take a quick break

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Speaker 1: and we will get into the consequences of his actions

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Speaker 1: for both him and his wife right after this.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone, Do I sound like Count Chocula? It

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Speaker 2: was a little Chocula, Yeah, welcome back.

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Speaker 1: Not the Count. I love it all right. So it

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Speaker 1: was far from Maria Tenbrinokovna's fault that her husband Ivan

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Speaker 1: was the terrible, but she did seem to encourage it,

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Speaker 1: and of course she was no peach herself, and while

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Speaker 1: he might have listened to her when she suggested that

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Speaker 1: he start the opportunina, he also regretted marrying her. She

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Speaker 1: was hated by her subjects and the courts alike, as

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Speaker 1: well as by Ivan's whole family, and we can't say

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Speaker 1: that this wasn't xenophobia or some sort of bigotry against

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Speaker 1: whether she was Muslim. You know, if this was a

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Speaker 1: racist thing, you know, hard to say. But what history

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Speaker 1: suggests to us is that she was pretty rotten herself. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so maybe it was not a total shock when on

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Speaker 1: September first of fifteen sixty nine, eight years after their marriage,

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Speaker 1: Maria Timriyokovna died of poisoning. Again, rumors went around that

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Speaker 1: Ivan himself actually poisoned her, but Ivan not only denied that,

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Speaker 1: but he had several nobles executed who he blamed for

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Speaker 1: her death.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I'm doubt he's going to be like,

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Speaker 2: I did it, no right, And he's like I did

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Speaker 2: it and a bunch of y'all are going to pay

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Speaker 2: for it.

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Speaker 1: Proof that I didn't is that I killed a bunch

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Speaker 1: of other people for doing it, So it must have

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Speaker 1: been them. I mean, no, I will say that historians

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Speaker 1: generally agree that he was not the one behind it

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Speaker 1: this time. It wouldn't make have made a lot of

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Speaker 1: sense for him, but that's true.

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Speaker 2: That Well, raise your hand if you think I've been

387
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Speaker 2: calmed down after that, I don't see any hands. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'll give you a hint The next thing to happen

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Speaker 2: was something called the Massacre of Novagrad. Oh boy, so

390
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Speaker 2: in fifteen seventy, Ivan believed Novagrad, Russia's second largest city,

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Speaker 2: was planning on defecting tow the Lithuanians, and we know

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Speaker 2: we don't like that. So he rode to the city,

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Speaker 2: sending the bodies of dead clergymen ahead of him. He

394
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Speaker 2: constructed a barrier around the city so no one could escape,

395
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Speaker 2: and then he and the Opachnik performed the most brutal

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Speaker 2: attack in their existence, with estimates between two thousand and

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Speaker 2: fifteen thousand casualties. Merchants were tortured, nobles were roasted with

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Speaker 2: what one chronicler called a quote clever fire making device,

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Speaker 2: which just sounds like a fifteen hundreds like flamethrower. Women

400
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Speaker 2: and children were tied up and thrown into the frozen river,

401
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Speaker 2: where they would be trapped under the eye drowned. God,

402
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Speaker 2: that sounds horrible.

403
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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh, and then they had boatmen riding around

404
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Speaker 1: with spears to make sure they got anyone who didn't drown.

405
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Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, those who confessed to treason after torture were dragged

407
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Speaker 2: behind sleds across town, and then peasants' homes were looted

408
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Speaker 2: and destroyed, and if they survived his attack, many starved

409
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Speaker 2: or froze later because they had nowhere to live.

410
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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a whole lot of history about the massacre

411
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Speaker 1: of Novgrod, if anyone's interested in Russian history, there's i mean,

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Speaker 1: just books dedicated to just this event. Of course, all

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Speaker 1: we have time for is a paragraph, but it's wild,

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Speaker 1: very upsetting. Well, the next year, in fifteen seventy one,

415
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Speaker 1: another fire broke out in Moscow. Damn these fires, third

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Speaker 1: one and this time it was definitely deliberate, because see

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Speaker 1: the Crimean and Ottoman forces had come to attack Moscow

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Speaker 1: and they set the suburbs on fire and it's huge,

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Speaker 1: which wind came in and it blew the fire into

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Speaker 1: the city. In six hours, the palace, the oprichnin the headquarters,

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Speaker 1: and the suburbs had completely burned down. WHOA. People were fleeing.

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Speaker 1: They rushed into stone cathedrals, and a lot of those

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Speaker 1: cathedrals collapsed, either from the heat of the fire or

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Speaker 1: just from the sheer number of people shoving their way

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Speaker 1: into them. Other people jumped into the river and many

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Speaker 1: of them drowned. The gunpowder storage room at the Kremlin exploded.

427
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Speaker 1: Casualties were estimated to be between sixty thousand and two

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand people. Afterwards, Ivan ordered bodies found in the

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Speaker 1: streets to be thrown into the river, but there were

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Speaker 1: so many that it caused flooding.

431
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

432
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Historian James Horsey wrote that it took more than

433
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: a year to clean out all the bodies. You know,

434
00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 1: the smell was like, oh my god, just horrible. After this,

435
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: the Oprichnina was disbanded and the lands of the Oprichnina

436
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: and the Zemschena were reunified under one new Boyar council

437
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: that Ivan helped pick out. Now, historians think Ivan might

438
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: have found the country being divided into two sections was

439
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: just too ineffective while the country was dealing with this

440
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: big war that they were losing. Maybe Ivan felt like

441
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: he'd achieved his goal by striking fear into everyone's hearts,

442
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: so his opposition wasn't going to be so you know,

443
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: it's going to be easier to put down. So he

444
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: got rid of the Obergnina, the Oberjnik. They were done now,

445
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: And they generally think that he recognized it wasn't doing

446
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: anything good for him at this point, but he wanted

447
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: to look like it was a success. So he was

448
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: just kind of like, we're done with this now, great

449
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: job me. It worked exactly like I wanted to and

450
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 1: now I can get rid of it.

451
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 2: He unraveled that big mission, accomplished exactly right, palace.

452
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 3: Right.

453
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: Well, by now, I think you'll probably know the patterns,

454
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: so you know what's coming next, because it goes Ivan's

455
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 1: wife gets poisoned, a bunch of people get executed, and

456
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: then there's a big fire, and then it's time for

457
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: another beauty pageant.

458
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

459
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: It was time for Ivan to get a new bride,

460
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: since now what three have been poisoned.

461
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: You know, everybody that had to show up was like, well,

462
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 2: I guess I'm gonna be poisoned.

463
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: I remember in part No.

464
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 2: One year or two or thirteen. But it's gonna happen,

465
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 2: I know.

466
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: I remember in part one we said that some of

467
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: the girls were probably excited to go in and take

468
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 1: part in this beauty pageant because marrying this are was

469
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 1: so cool. And by now it's probably like, oh god,

470
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: it's like American idol, Like I hope I get second place,

471
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: because then I'm not locked into this horrible contract. But

472
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: maybe I'll get a good record deal. I love that. Actually,

473
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: actually this is not far from the truth, because sometimes

474
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: the uh, the runners up in the beauty pageant would

475
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: end up marrying other nobles. Sure, one of them even

476
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: went to one of Ivan's sons. No, I could second

477
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: place was probably not bad.

478
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 2: Well, I actually I remember, did you ever see the

479
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: Man in the Iron Mask?

480
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? Wow, yeah, yeah, way back when.

481
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: I just remember when Louis the shitty one was like

482
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 2: starting to hit on that girl and she starts to

483
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 2: get really worried. And I remember when I watched it.

484
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 2: Of course it was when it came out. I was

485
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: younger and everything, and I was like, oh, well, why

486
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: she was so worried. It's great the king likes her,

487
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 2: you know, she's set for life. But actually everybody knew

488
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 2: that it was really not great, right, be either too

489
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: favored or too disfavored by the ruler, Like you want

490
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 2: to be nice in the middle somewhere where he likes you,

491
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: and then he forgets you.

492
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: Relatively exactly true with a lot of bosses, I think,

493
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: you know, like I want you to like me and

494
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: then not think of me when you're making decisions. Yeah.

495
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 2: So, once again, young women are called from across Land,

496
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 2: and in October fifteen, seventy one out of twelve finalists,

497
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: Ivan gave the rose to Marfa Sobachina. He arranged their

498
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: marriage and this time they would stay in an impenetrable fortress,

499
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 2: which Ivan had filled with only loyalists. Absolutely no one

500
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 2: was going to get to his third wife, Marfa. And

501
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: she's dead.

502
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: Oh no, what.

503
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, only sixteen days after their wedding, Marfa died of

504
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 2: a mysterious ailment. God. Now, it was rumored and is

505
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: probably true, that Marfa's own mother accidentally poisoned her with

506
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 2: a potion that was meant to increase her fertility. So

507
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: that's really tragic because you know, Marfa's mom is like,

508
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to set you up for success, right

509
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: in your very scary marriage to the worst man in

510
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 2: the world, and she accidentally kills her own kid. That's

511
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: so sad.

512
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

513
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: And you know we mentioned in the last episode a

514
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: lot of meta distance back then used mercury and other toxins,

515
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: so it's likely that, you know, Marfa just took too

516
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: much of a bad thing in order to try to

517
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: be the mother you know, of the heir to the

518
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: to the czar, and like secure her position for life. Right,

519
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 2: but that is really sad, it is I feel really

520
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: bad for Marfa's mom.

521
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,959
Speaker 1: Oh, all of them. Well, you know, at least Ivan,

522
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: we know calmly and quietly accepted the death of his wife,

523
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: and he spent a few weeks in quiet morning. Are

524
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: you kidding me? Of course not. No, he went absolutely nuts.

525
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: I mean, his his impregnable fortress had been impregnant, so pregnant, impregnant,

526
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: somebody impregnant it so it once again, Ivan got super

527
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: paranoid that everyone he trusted was out to get him,

528
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: and he immediately executed twenty people, including his previous wife's brother,

529
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: Mikhail Timryukovna, and much of Marfa's own family. Now this time,

530
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: Ivan decided that he better get married real quick before

531
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: another fire broke out, and he just went ahead and picked.

532
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: Speaking of runners up, Anna Koltovskaya. She was an eighteen

533
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: year old girl and she had also been in the

534
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: last beauty pageant. But the Orthodox Church had a real

535
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: problem with Ivan going into a fourth marriage. In fact,

536
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: their rule was quote the first marriage is law, the

537
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: second an extraordinary concession. The third is a violation of law.

538
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: The fourth is an impiet a state similar to that

539
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: of the animals.

540
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 2: Damn, So even though they're not alive.

541
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: Yep, they said you get three marriages. I imagine they're like,

542
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: if you're getting married a fourth time, God doesn't want

543
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: you to be married?

544
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: You know, I guess, so, I guess you could.

545
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: I got hint. This is the official stance of the church. Hint.

546
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: Well, Ivan, we know is not the kind of guy

547
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: to say, well, rules a rule. But he did throw

548
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: the clergy a bone here. He did not roast them

549
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: all like marshmallows with a medieval flamethrower.

550
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: Oh good for him.

551
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, some real growth growth and with iron right now.

552
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 2: He actually told them, you know, look, my third wife

553
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: died in practically zero days. We never got a chance

554
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: to consummate the marriage. That one don't count, okay, but

555
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: count count me.

556
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: Four wives.

557
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 2: He organized a meeting at the Church of Assumption and

558
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: he gave this heartfelt speech about all the loss he'd

559
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: endured and his struggle to find a bride, and it

560
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 2: reportedly moved the clergy to tears. So they said he

561
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 2: could marry her, but he would have to do penance

562
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: for a year. And so they married in April of

563
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: fifteen seventy two, and they took their honeymoon and sunny.

564
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: Noma Gorod, Oh.

565
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: The city that he had decimated two years earlier. Wow,

566
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 2: it's lovely this time of year. Right, Yes, Anna, I'd

567
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: love to take you to this beautiful cathedral, but sort

568
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: of burned it.

569
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: Down, although we give you a tour of town. That's

570
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: what I said, the guy with forty spears.

571
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: This is the river that has so many women and

572
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: children in it.

573
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: Oh, you can still smell the barbecue. Oh God, what

574
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: a weird choice for honeymoon.

575
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess its many options.

576
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: I'd be like, is this honeymoon a threat?

577
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: Maybe?

578
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: Are you transcend a message here? Well? Okay, So at

579
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: this point in history, with the opperach Nina disbanded, uh,

580
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: the war going on and not great. There aren't a

581
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: ton of big events over the next few years in

582
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: terms of the story we're telling, And according to Natalia

583
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: Pushkareva's book Women Inrussian History on the Koltovskaya did have

584
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: a good influence on Ivan for a while. Russian sorenas

585
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: are not allowed to associate with common folk, including their

586
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: own families. So it was pretty customary that when a

587
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: woman marries as Are, her family would be moved to

588
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: the court and given noble titles so that she could

589
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: still associate.

590
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: With them, which we've seen before oh many times. I'm

591
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 2: particularly thinking about ancient China episodes that we've done where

592
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, you know, she marries the emperor and

593
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: her whole family gets lifted up. So as part of

594
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 2: the reason, the families are like pushing their daughters to

595
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: these parts that they're like, it's not even about you, Yeah,

596
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 2: it's about me.

597
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, honest family did not fit in well at court,

598
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: so they had a hard time making allies, and after

599
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: two years, Ivan and Anna had not been able to

600
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: conceive a child, so Ivan supposedly started to get kind

601
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: of bored with her and he sent her off to

602
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: live in a convent. She took the name Daria and

603
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: lived out her days there without ever getting poisoned. She

604
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: actually outlived Ivan himself. Oh so we're gonna go ahead

605
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: and call this one a win for Anna.

606
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 4: Yeahza, the best you can hope for is going off

607
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 4: to live as a nun and having a long somewhat

608
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 4: comfortable life without getting poisoned or stabs.

609
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 2: I mean as comfortable as nuns are. I mean, you know, well,

610
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: within the year, I've been decided to go for a

611
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 2: fifth wife. Historian Nikolay Karamzine wrote, quote, the czar, no

612
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 2: longer observing even the slightest decency, no longer seeking the

613
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: blessing of the bishops without any church permission, married Anna

614
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: Vasiltchikhova in fifteen seventy five.

615
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: Wow.

616
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 2: So yeah, he wasn't even pretending anymore, right, And anyone

617
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 2: who defied him or was like, hey, you're not supposed

618
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: to do that, and they pretty much faced torture and execution,

619
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: so nobody challenged it. He got his fifth wife, no problem.

620
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a sad existence, though, God I no one

621
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: ever spoke to him at all. Is they're just like,

622
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: you say the wrong thing, You're dead?

623
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 2: I mean, isn't that sort of the I mean not

624
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 2: just the only one. But one of the tragedies of

625
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: being a very paranoid person is that you end up

626
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: pushing so many people away that you like are lonely,

627
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 2: and you can't help but feel like everybody hates you

628
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,439
Speaker 2: because you made them hate you. Like you made them

629
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 2: specifically withdraw from you.

630
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: It becomes a spiral.

631
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and kind of a self fulfilling one.

632
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 1: Yeah.

633
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 2: So yeah, nobody challenged this marriage, and Ivan and Anna

634
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: had a small wedding ceremony with just immediate family and

635
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 2: very little is known about her background or their marriage.

636
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: But similarly to his last Ana, this one was shipped

637
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: off to a monastery after two years. But unlike the

638
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: last Ana, it's believed that she died violently at the convent,

639
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 2: and rumors started to be spread that Ivan himself had

640
00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 2: her killed.

641
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, he's getting to the point where, you know,

642
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: nobody wrongs him and he doesn't leave any loose ends anywhere.

643
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, I'm getting rid of this wife that

644
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: I was with for two years, but what if she talks,

645
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: what if she starts plotting revenge against me? Whatever? And

646
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: so he sent somebody in there to uh, I think

647
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: stabber a bunch of times.

648
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 2: Maybe the first Anna just took like a vow of

649
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: silence or something, and he's not to worry about it.

650
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: Just caught him in a good mood, right, maybe.

651
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: Or she changed her name and he's like, what it

652
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: was her name again?

653
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: Whatever?

654
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: I don't know anyway, look for if you find.

655
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 1: Now. At this point, Bush Garreva writes, quote, even people

656
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: at court could not keep track of the series of

657
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: women who appeared and disappeared beside the Czar's throne. Ivan

658
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 1: would take women in, but he had a hard time

659
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: actually caring about anyone, and they and their families generally

660
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: weren't treated well, And of course things didn't end too well. Again,

661
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: I really just think that he was looking to recapture

662
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: that feeling that he had with Anastasia. Yeah, and he

663
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: didn't know how to find it. He was too far

664
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: away from the person he was back then and he

665
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: couldn't be that anymore.

666
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

667
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: But then came Vasalisa Melentieva, his sixth wife, or was she.

668
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: There's a bit of a mystery here, and we're gonna

669
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: get back to that miss Damsel right after this break.

670
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 2: Welcome back, everybody.

671
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 1: Some historians think that Vasalisa Melentieva was Ivan the Terrible's

672
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: sixth wife, but others suggest she might not have existed

673
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 1: at all. Most of her story comes from a book

674
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: by Alexander Sula Katzev, who was notorious for writing fake

675
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: histories in the nineteenth century damn misinformation right way back

676
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds. This guy was doing it right up.

677
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 5: He was just like the original clickbait. He's like whatever, right, right,

678
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 5: crazy story? People buy it, who cares, and then they

679
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 5: believe it journalistic integrity. But of course, Nikolai Karamzine and

680
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 5: more modern researchers did find documents that confirm that Vasilisa

681
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 5: was at least real and did have a special relationship

682
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 5: with Ivan. So it's possible that she was simply a

683
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 5: concubine if not his actual sixth wife.

684
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 2: Ah, okay, okay, So maybe no marriage here, Yeah, hard

685
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 2: to see he was there.

686
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: Some definitely think that there was a marriage, and some

687
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: think there probably wasn't.

688
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: Well. The story goes that her husband, Nikita, worked in

689
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: the Tsar's court, and Ivan had him poisoned and brought

690
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: Bessilissa to live with him instead.

691
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: Ah. The old switcheroo call.

692
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 2: That she was, according to Pushkareva quote, such a beauty

693
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 2: that none of the maidens at the bridal pageant could

694
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 2: match her. This keeps happening, Yeah, beauties constantly right, And

695
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: allegedly Ivan was pretty happy with her. She was a

696
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: bit older than his other brides, and she was kind

697
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 2: of like Anastasia. She was sweet and calming. But a

698
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: few months in Ivan's marital luck ran out again and

699
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,760
Speaker 2: he discovered Vasilisa was having an affair with a prince

700
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: named dev letel No, which is just absolutely the dumbest

701
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,959
Speaker 2: thing she could have done, right, like this little last

702
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 2: guy I would cheat on. So I've been forced Vasilisa

703
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 2: to watch as he had her lover impales, and then

704
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 2: he exiled her to a convent as well, and then

705
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 2: she allegedly died mysteriously later that year, and some think

706
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 2: it's possible that Ivan had her killed as well.

707
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: So I'm kind of wondering about the validity of this

708
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: story for a couple of reasons. One, like you said,

709
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 1: who would bait this man into having any reason to

710
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: be mad at you? I mean, at the same time,

711
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: how could she possibly be happy with him? So maybe

712
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: that was she just really loved this guy, and she

713
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: was like, I can't not be with you because my

714
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 1: husband is literally one of the worst people in history.

715
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 1: That's true, so I see that. But also it does

716
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: seem like I would just be on eggshells the entire time.

717
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be runing around, cheating or anything like that.

718
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: I know, although maybe you're right, and she's like, it's

719
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: only a matter of time before he turns on me. Anyways,

720
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 2: CONGRATU while.

721
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: I can that's true. I guess maybe my bigger question

722
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: is Devlatev. Who would be that stupid to cheat with IV?

723
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: In the Terrible Spike, I.

724
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: Was about to say this thing if she was like,

725
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 2: I'm ready, I.

726
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: Don't keep it. I don't care if you're a twelve.

727
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: I am sorry, but your husband is literally the most

728
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: frightening person in a country with a history full of

729
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: frightening people.

730
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 2: Seriously, he's going to roast me over an open fire,

731
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: like I'm not gonna know.

732
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: But my other reason I'm not sure if I buy

733
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: this is because some of the other elements seem to

734
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: be mashed up from previous stories, right, like the fact

735
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: that he sent her to a convent and she died there.

736
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: You know that she was very calming to him. I

737
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: even literally saw the same painting labeled on two different websites,

738
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: one as Ivan and Vasilissa and one as Ivan and Anastasia,

739
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: So it seems like the parts of their stories are

740
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: getting crossed over to Okay, it's hard to say. We

741
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: just don't know. It's the fifteen hundreds. There's not a

742
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: lot of really good records.

743
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: Right, Apparently you got guys out here just writing.

744
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: I believe well. Ivan's seventh marriage is also disputed, and

745
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: little is known about this one, maybe even less. Her

746
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: name was Maria Dolgurukaya, and he supposedly married her in

747
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 1: the year fifteen eighty, although some people write their story

748
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: as as her being his fifth wife in between the

749
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: two anas. Now, if Maria Dolgurukaya existed, the legend says

750
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: that she was engaged to Ivan but had an affair

751
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: before their wedding. Ivan discovered after their wedding night that

752
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: she was not a virgin, and he ordered his guard

753
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: to drown her in the frozen river. That's all we

754
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 1: really know about that story. This one maybe even less

755
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: likely to be real, but it tracks. I don't not

756
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: believe it, you.

757
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 2: Know, I mean, I guess he wanted a personality where

758
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,479
Speaker 2: you could believe any number of horrible things about him. Yeah,

759
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: so I guess you win, Ivan, Great.

760
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: Job, all right. Well, before we get to Ivan's eighth

761
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: and final wife, let's do a quick recap at Sarina summary.

762
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: Sarna summary. Number one Anastasia Romanov. They have two surviving

763
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: sons together at this point, lil Ivan Junior and Feodor.

764
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: They were together for thirteen years before she got poisoned

765
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:44,959
Speaker 1: by the boyars.

766
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 2: Number two Maria hemrio Kovna, who also got poisoned, maybe

767
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: by Ivan, probably by boyars after eight years of marriage.

768
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 1: Number three Marfa Soobatina, who died sixteen days after their wedding,

769
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,479
Speaker 1: probably accidentally poisoned by her mother.

770
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 2: Number four Anna Koltovskaya, married for two years before he

771
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 2: got bored with her and shipped her to a monastery.

772
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 2: She's still alive in the story, not in her life.

773
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: Number five Anna Vasilchikova, also married for two years before

774
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: getting sent off to a monastery where she was killed.

775
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: Number six Vasilissa Melentieva, they were married for a few

776
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: months before I even discovered she was cheating, had her

777
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 2: boyfriend impaled in front of her. She's sent off to

778
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 2: a monastery where she was also killed.

779
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: And number seven Maria Dolgurukaya, who cheated before they got

780
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 1: married and she got dropped. So just a super list

781
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: of Sarinas.

782
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: What a super summary.

783
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: They all did stupendously.

784
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 2: I don't know, some of them did stupid shit, but

785
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: that brings us to Zarina number eight, Maria Nagaya. This

786
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 2: woman and this marriage both definitely did exist, so no

787
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 2: questions here. They married in the year fifteen eighty one,

788
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 2: but this was also the year of one of Ivan's

789
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: most terrible acts in a long time. Ivan had actually

790
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: been trying to make amends for his uprich Nina years

791
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: by making massive donations to monasteries. He would visit other

792
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: towns and pray at their churches for his victims, and

793
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 2: Russia had been weakened under his strict and violent rule,

794
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 2: and the war wasn't going well either. Ivan's son, Ivan Junior,

795
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: had been married three times since he was twelve years old.

796
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 2: The first two wives did not produce children quickly, so

797
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 2: Ivan Senior had them each shipped off to convents, so

798
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 2: the two Ivan's relationship was pretty strained.

799
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: Ivan Junior's third wife was Yolena Sharremiteva, and she was

800
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: found to be pregnant in October of fifteen eighty one,

801
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: and everyone was thrilled. Ivan Junior course was in line

802
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 1: to be Ivan the Fifth, the next Czar of Russia,

803
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: and he already had his family lined up and ready

804
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: to go. He was going to have an heir himself.

805
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: But on November fifteenth, fifteen eighty one, Ivan the Terrible

806
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 1: saw his daughter in law, Yelena, wearing what he saw

807
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 1: as immodest clothing, and he started to beat her. Ivan

808
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: Junior ran in hearing his wife's screams, and he stopped

809
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: his father, shouting at him, quote, you sent my first

810
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: wife to a convent, did the same with my second,

811
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: and now you strike the third, causing the death of

812
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 1: the son she holds in her womb. And indeed Yelena

813
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: suffered a miscarriage just shortly after.

814
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 2: This damn Iivan Yeah. On the next day, Ivan Junior

815
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: confronted his father. They had already been fighting over Ivan

816
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 2: the fourth military failures, and Ivan Junior had tried to

817
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 2: raise his own army to save the besieged city of Puskov.

818
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 2: So when Ivan Junior shouted at his father for beating

819
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 2: his wife, the czar changed the subject and accused him

820
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 2: of inciting a rebellion by raising his own forces. Ivan

821
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 2: Junior denied it, but he insisted the city be liberated,

822
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 2: at which point Ivan the Terrible lost his temper and

823
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 2: struck his son over the head with his scepter. Ivan

824
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 2: Junior collapsed to the ground, bleeding from the head, barely conscious.

825
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: His father immediately threw himself down on the ground and

826
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 2: cradled his son, crying, quote, May I be damned, I've

827
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 2: killed my son. I've killed my son. The younger Ivan

828
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 2: regained consciousness briefly and reportedly said quote, I die as

829
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 2: a devoted son and most humble servant. His father prayed

830
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 2: over his bedside for the next few days, but on

831
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 2: November nineteenth, young Ivan, heir to the Russian throne, died

832
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: at twenty seven years old. This again, Ivan's just he

833
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: can't hold on to his temper at all. He's just

834
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: like he doesn't really have a focus for any of

835
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 2: his violence.

836
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: Really, this is like the most tragic part to me

837
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,479
Speaker 1: because you see especially him like collapsing to the ground. That, yeah,

838
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: his his reactions are out of his own control, right.

839
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: He has these violent outbursts that I don't think he

840
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 1: knows he's doing until he's done them. Obviously, no excuse,

841
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 1: but it's just it makes he's so much more than

842
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: just an awful person. He's really got mental health issues.

843
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: I think, and most historians say that as well, that

844
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: he was not a sane a fully sane person in

845
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 1: control of his own faculties right like he was losing

846
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: it or had lost it long ago. The guy really

847
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: needed some some therapy and maybe some medications. He certainly

848
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: didn't need to have this kind of power.

849
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 2: No, it's only making him a billion times worse.

850
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,959
Speaker 1: This scepter that he hit his son with, he cared

851
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: around for that purpose. He would beat people with it

852
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: all the time.

853
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 2: Of course, what else do you do with this scepter?

854
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: I guess and his son just like challenged him once, like,

855
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: just stood up to him, and his immediate reaction, without thinking,

856
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: without even knowing who was in front of him, was

857
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: to swing that thing and bash him over the head

858
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: with it.

859
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like very knee jerk.

860
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: Yes. Now. Ivan didn't really care much for his eighth wife,

861
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: Maria Nagaya, but she bore him a son the next year,

862
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: fifteen eighty two, and they named him Dimitri, and this

863
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: is believed to be what saved her from being exiled

864
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: or worse. But later that year Ivan sent a letter

865
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: off to our old friend Queen Elizabeth the First of

866
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: England two and he said, Hey, I want to marry

867
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: your relative Mary Hastings and create an alliance between our

868
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: two nations. Russia had only formed their first trade connections

869
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: with England in the last few decades, and he saw

870
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: them as a very powerful ally, you know, for blanking

871
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 1: Middle Europe. Sure, he said in his letter that, yeah,

872
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: I know that I'm married, but you know what, I

873
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: will totally ditch my wife if you agreed to me

874
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: marrying your cousin.

875
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 2: Well, Elizabeth pretty much did not respond to this letter,

876
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 2: maybe because ten years earlier I even had exchanged two

877
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 2: other letters with her. One offered some political proposal, and

878
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 2: when she rejected him, he wrote the second letter, which

879
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 2: basically said, Wow, I thought you were a good ruler,

880
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: but I guess your country is actually ruled by merchants

881
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 2: that only care about prophets quote and you flower in

882
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: your maidenly a state like a maid.

883
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: Wow.

884
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 2: That ain't the way to go with Queen Elizabeth.

885
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah no, it's the first letter, no

886
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: mention of her being a queen, and his second one

887
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: he's like, wow, well this is what happens when women rule,

888
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: isn't it.

889
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: Like jeez, dude, your dumb female brain. Uh huh, can't

890
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 2: grasp the intricacies and my perfect proposal.

891
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: I guess you're just flouncing around in your gardens, you know,

892
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: doing curtsies and watching the notebook.

893
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 2: And Queen Elizabeth is like, meanwhile, how many fires have

894
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 2: we had?

895
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 1: Right?

896
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,399
Speaker 2: Seriously, after your Queen Elizabeth read this letter, she kind

897
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 2: of it, probably took a breath right, got her temper

898
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 2: together because that was something she could do. And she

899
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 2: wrote back, yeah, that is not how it goes over here.

900
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: She wrote, quote, we rule ourselves with the honor befitting

901
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: a virgin queen appointed by God, and no sovereign, thanks

902
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 2: to God, has more obedient subjects. So she's like, you

903
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 2: know all that disloyalty you're dealing with, I know nothing

904
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 2: of it.

905
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Second, oh, I'm sorry. I have my shit together

906
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 1: over here.

907
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:55,399
Speaker 2: All right.

908
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: You're out here begging for a wife when you're already married,

909
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: just so you can hold your country together.

910
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 2: Okay, my best he's over here not getting married quick

911
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 2: for me.

912
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 1: I got three dudes on hold, I got.

913
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 2: Men on men on men, but none on me.

914
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: Well, fortunately before any poor english woman was sent off

915
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: to marry Ivan the Terrible, he died of a stroke

916
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 1: in fifteen eighty four while playing chess with a friend,

917
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: and across Russia there was much rejoicing ding Dong. Well,

918
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: or there might have been, except there wasn't really a

919
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: great air in place, because he had killed his eldest

920
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: son Ivan. His younger son, Feodor was next in line,

921
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,399
Speaker 1: and he was named Zar pretty quickly. But this guy

922
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: was really quiet. He was kind of sickly, and he

923
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: was just this sweet, good natured little kid who had

924
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: pretty much no interest in politics. They said that he

925
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: liked to visit churches and he would ask them to

926
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: ring the bells and they got there because he just

927
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: liked to hear the bells ring. That he was actually

928
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: nicknamed Theodora, the bell ringer. And I just picture this

929
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: guy is like and he likes to sit down and

930
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: play with the bunnies, you know, chasing around butterflies. Yeah, exactly.

931
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 2: Well, I guess he he's a lot more like honest

932
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 2: to see you, yea, his.

933
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 1: Mother and him for sure. And of course he was

934
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: but only three years old himself when his mother died.

935
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: Oh wow, so yeah, so he grew up just kind

936
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 1: of like can I just stay out of it please?

937
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 2: I know, well, I would, That's definitely would be me.

938
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 2: I'd be like, I'm just seeing y'all's drama. It's very exhausted.

939
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,720
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go sit over here, listen to some bells,

940
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 2: reading my books.

941
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: Reading my books under the bell tell it. I mean,

942
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 1: you know, you think of it. He's the spare, right,

943
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: So Ivan probably put all of his like fatherness into

944
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: Ivan Junior, like I'm gonna do tryna be a man

945
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: son because you'll be czar one day, not thinking that,

946
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 1: you know, the other way would go, and little Fyodor

947
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: is just like, Okay, well, I'm just gonna go be

948
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: sweetie man.

949
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 2: That's another thing I think is so weird, how many

950
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 2: times in history that they've had to resort to the

951
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 2: spare right, And even so people are like, I'm not

952
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 2: going to spend any time in the spare, you know, Like,

953
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 2: but what if he does have to? I mean, you

954
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 2: should should both know what to do.

955
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: Well. So everyone was kind of expecting Fyodor to not

956
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: really rule for very long because he was kind of

957
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: weak and he was kind of sick. The next in

958
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,919
Speaker 1: line might have been Ivan and Maria's son Dmitri from

959
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,919
Speaker 1: his last marriage, but in fifteen ninety one, at only

960
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: eight years old. Dmitri died under mysterious circumstances.

961
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 2: And Boris Goldenov was the boyar who was effectively running

962
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 2: the country while Fyodor was you know, checked out listening

963
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 2: to the bells and stuff. And Maria Nagaya and her

964
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: brothers supported a theory that Boris had Dmitri killed to

965
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: strengthen his own power. Sure, but the modern scholars tend

966
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 2: to think Boris was not involved. So the most likely

967
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 2: theory is that Dmitri was playing a game called Sviika

968
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 2: where boys would throw this sharp spear into the ground.

969
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 2: But then he had a seizure which he was prone to,

970
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 2: and he fell down in such a way that the

971
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 2: spear cut his neck.

972
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: Right.

973
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 2: What a freak.

974
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: Accident, A total freak accident. That's the more accepted theory

975
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 1: about what happened.

976
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 2: That's crazy.

977
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: But when Czar Fyodor died in fifteen ninety eight without

978
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: an air it kicked off what's known in Russian history

979
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: as the time of Troubles, where in three different men

980
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: at different times claimed to be Dmitri, all grown up like.

981
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: There was this huge cult of people who believed that

982
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: Dmitri actually survived. So there's false Dmitri one, two and

983
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: three they call him, and these three guys that stepped

984
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,959
Speaker 1: up and actually did rule Russia of them for a time.

985
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 1: It was chaotic. I mean, no one knew who was

986
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,439
Speaker 1: in charge. This is a whole other, a whole other show.

987
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,760
Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is Russian history that deserves

988
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: like a ten part series just on the false Dmitries

989
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: and the time of troubles at things. But the summary

990
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: is that things were rough for quite a few years,

991
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 1: almost two decades.

992
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 2: I love I love that they named it the time

993
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 2: of troubles, unlike all the other times previously. Well, they're

994
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 2: not troubled.

995
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: I mean that tells you right there just how bad

996
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: it was. They're like those were normal times. These are

997
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: trouble times.

998
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:40,720
Speaker 2: All the fires, massacres, so on normal ship. This is trouble.

999
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: Russian bar very low. Well, to make a long story short,

1000
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: In sixteen thirteen, I'm in the terribles government that he

1001
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: set up. The Zemski Sabor elected a relative of his

1002
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 1: first wife, Anastacia, to be the next Czar of Russia.

1003
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: His name was Michael Romanov. Because remember back when Ivan

1004
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 1: and honest Thesia were married people scoffed at the Romanov family.

1005
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: They thought they were not very important. But now the

1006
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: Romanovs would go on to rule Russia for the next

1007
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: three hundred years.

1008
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 2: How crazy fail that? I mean, they basically had to

1009
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 2: be like, I don't know, you sort of involved in

1010
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 2: the family, I guess, I mean, certainly again, they end

1011
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 2: up like holding on to power for so.

1012
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 1: Long, right, definitely again another dense history if you study

1013
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 1: the time of troubles in Russias more than I had

1014
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,920
Speaker 1: time to get into. But but yeah, I know I

1015
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: love that. That. I mean, Ivan just destabilized things so

1016
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:49,760
Speaker 1: badly on his way out that they had to completely

1017
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 1: switch lines. His dynasty was the Rurics, and they had

1018
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 1: ruled Russia for quite a long time and no one

1019
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: thought they would ever go. But I haven't wiped out

1020
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 1: that and started the Romanov dynasty, who, of.

1021
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 2: Course, three hundred years later lost power very spectacularly, right, And.

1022
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 1: Then we got up pretty solid Fox Animation Studios musical

1023
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: movie out of it with Kelsey Grammar. Oh yeah, I

1024
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: forget that. And the name Anastasia just cringed.

1025
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 2: That's not how you say it, right, Well, I guess

1026
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 2: we also say Romanov is also wrong.

1027
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, but who knows Russians. Let us know Russians, let

1028
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: us know what a story. Even the Terrible again a

1029
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: name you hear floating through their history, like he was

1030
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: one of the bad guys henchmen in I think Night

1031
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: at the Museum two, like the Pharaoh who was like

1032
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: taken over. He enlisted Ivan the Terrible and Napoleon and

1033
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: like uh al Capone, I think, to help him take

1034
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 1: over the museum. Yeah, exactly. So Ivan's got this historical

1035
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: image of being terrible, and of course remember his name

1036
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: does not really mean that, but he also is terrible. Yeah,

1037
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: so really quite a quite a character, and just a

1038
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: brutal history here with these poor eight you know, between

1039
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: six and eight official wives and probably many other women

1040
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 1: who well.

1041
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: That's what my question is, all these women that they

1042
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 2: were like we can't even keep track. Yeah, in that

1043
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 2: part of the story, I was like, well what happened

1044
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 2: to them?

1045
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1046
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 2: Like I imagine he was just like all right, one night stand.

1047
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 2: Well maybe he's like a mina of Nigeria and he's like,

1048
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 2: I'll just one night stand and then you did.

1049
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember in part one he grew up as

1050
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: a as a young teenage boy, he had a supposedly

1051
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: a different woman every night. Oh yeah, so he was

1052
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 1: probably very used to being able to sleep with a

1053
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 1: woman anytime you wanted, and there was just women at

1054
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: his disposal at all times. Would further makes me think

1055
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: that Ivan's real goal was to find another honest to

1056
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 1: see you, find someone who made him happy in that

1057
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 1: way that he was, but he again was just too

1058
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: far gone to ever feel that way again, no matter

1059
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 1: who came in.

1060
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 2: I think that's true. I mean, you know, this is

1061
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 2: this a terrible guy, but I kind of feel sorry

1062
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 2: for him. I feel like there's a lot of There

1063
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 2: must be a lot of that throughout history, is I

1064
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 2: think we've run into a few times, but especially historians

1065
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 2: must often read about particularly leaders where they're like, this

1066
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 2: guy is not well right, you know, like if it

1067
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 2: had been different, you know, someone would have been like,

1068
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 2: let's let's maybe get somebody a little more like stable

1069
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 2: and the throne. This guy is crazy, but they didn't

1070
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 2: really have, i mean any any tools to address that.

1071
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 2: And then of course when we did know kings were

1072
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 2: crazy in England, they were just like, well put them

1073
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 2: in a room by himself. But he's still going to

1074
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 2: be king. I don't know, we can't can't change it.

1075
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 2: It's just so strange. Well, I think you've done a

1076
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 2: fine job making us feel sorry for a terrible guy.

1077
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 1: Always. My goal is, like, you know, who's looking out

1078
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: for the murderous white guys? You know we deserve a

1079
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: little more respect, don't we we?

1080
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 2: I am I going to be poisoned? Or since you're

1081
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 2: a monastery, yeah, prepare myself.

1082
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: No, I would send myself to a monastery before you.

1083
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 1: I think, okay, good, all those nuns, am I right?

1084
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 2: No, I don't think it's going to turn out the

1085
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 2: way you play you're planning. I like that about our

1086
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 2: show sometimes because you're able to just look at them

1087
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 2: as a person, yeah, throughout there, from their romantic relationships

1088
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 2: and stuff, and be like, regardless of all the terrible

1089
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 2: things they're doing, there's just a person in here that

1090
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 2: is is I don't know, chafing at a lot of

1091
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 2: things in their life, like his mom being poisoned and stuff,

1092
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 2: and he's also so clearly not mentally well and just

1093
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 2: I don't know's you can kind of have some sympathy

1094
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 2: for that actual person, even though I have very little

1095
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 2: sympathy for the ruler and the terrible.

1096
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah, I was gonna say it goes back to

1097
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 1: this thing I say to you often when I'll say

1098
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 1: I'm sorry and you say you've got nothing to be

1099
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 1: sorry for it, and I said, well, I'm not apologizing,

1100
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: I'm sympathizing, you know. And that's the difference between those

1101
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 1: two sories. And it's like I can feel sorry for

1102
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: Ivan and everything he'd been through and what led him

1103
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 1: to being a monster without apologizing for his behavior at all. Right, no, one,

1104
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 1: there is no apology for that, but there can be sympathy.

1105
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean, oh, it's okay. Come on, let's

1106
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: get you a hot bowl of soup and get you

1107
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 1: inside and give you a nice comfy bed and you'll,

1108
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 1: you know, we'll just we'll just find you a good

1109
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 1: wife and then all will be forgiven. No, absolutely not.

1110
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: You're a monster who murdered and tortured people horribly, and

1111
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: you deserve nothing but the worst. But also it sucks

1112
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 1: that you the circumstances that led you to become that

1113
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 1: are are awful and shouldn't have happened.

1114
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's true. I feel like that's sort

1115
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 2: of when you're psychologically talking about you know, some some

1116
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 2: terrible criminal and people are like, stop sympathizing with them,

1117
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 2: they did horrible things, and it's like, that's true. I

1118
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 2: don't you know, you don't want to sympathize with the

1119
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,439
Speaker 2: criminal over the victims, right, you know? Or something like that,

1120
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 2: But we do. I think as people were so fascinated by,

1121
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 2: like what makes you do something like that? What makes

1122
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 2: you into a type of person who can go so

1123
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 2: hard against social moras and morals? Yea of like just

1124
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 2: not torturing and murdering a bunch of people. Like what

1125
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 2: turns you into that person? Is kind of a draw,

1126
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 2: is such a curiosity.

1127
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: I think we lose sight a little bit of why

1128
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:48,440
Speaker 1: we want to know that. I think there's an instinct

1129
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 1: that's true that that makes us want to dig into that.

1130
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 1: It's the reason true crime is so popular and stuff.

1131
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: And I think the reason we probably feel that way

1132
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 1: is because we want to be active and proactive about

1133
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: stopping those from happening. But we get a little more

1134
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: excited about the details and we're just like I just

1135
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: want to know it. I just want to eat it,

1136
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: and not like I want to do something about it. Yeah.

1137
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 1: I think that's really what it comes down to, is

1138
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 1: if we're looking so hard at why people are the

1139
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 1: way they are, why people do terrible things that we

1140
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 1: could not imagine, because well, you know, maybe we find

1141
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: out that Ivan was that way because people were horrible

1142
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 1: to him as a child, and maybe we should treat

1143
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 1: children better and not poison their mothers. You know, if

1144
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 1: that's all we take from this, I think it's a

1145
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 1: good lesson, is don't poison children's mothers.

1146
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 2: I find that to be a good lesson as well.

1147
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 1: Classic lesson could have avoided all of this. Who knows

1148
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 1: what Russia would be like today if the boy ours

1149
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:44,920
Speaker 1: hadn't done all that, right, or if they just.

1150
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, if they let honest Sosia live, right, maybe Ivan

1151
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:50,919
Speaker 2: would still be himself, you know, but not so bad

1152
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 2: right right, I don't know.

1153
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 1: Maybe things would have gotten worse. There's that theory too,

1154
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 1: that we were in the best possible timeline.

1155
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 2: Oh that's a theory.

1156
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's not great. It's not a great thing,

1157
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 1: but sometimes I like it. Sometimes I'm like, well, this sucks,

1158
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,880
Speaker 1: but all other options were worse. Even though I think

1159
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: they were better, they are actually worse.

1160
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 2: I was gonna say too that. I think what's part

1161
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 2: part of us trying to figure out why someone is

1162
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 2: the way they are being such a draw is that

1163
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 2: we get really frustrated if we find out that they

1164
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 2: just are like that because some people are born with

1165
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 2: the violent, violent tendency. There's nothing that necessarily makes them

1166
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 2: that way. I think we talked about it, like Sid

1167
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 2: and Nancy, there was really nothing to point to that

1168
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:36,959
Speaker 2: was like this is the turning point where they said,

1169
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:41,080
Speaker 2: I'm you know, I'm broken now. But they were just

1170
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 2: kind of had that impulse in them. And there's something

1171
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 2: really scary about that that you can just be born

1172
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 2: with that and not have any choice once whatsoever, and

1173
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 2: that nothing could have done, no one could have done

1174
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 2: anything differently. That's always really hard to accept.

1175
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can't not damage people too, that's so right.

1176
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:03,160
Speaker 1: You can't be perfect to everyone around you all the time,

1177
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:06,400
Speaker 1: and you're gonna cause some harm, You're gonna cause some

1178
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 1: lasting trauma, you know, just passively, right, So just try

1179
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 1: not to do it actively. But yeah, I think you're right.

1180
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 1: I think some people there's not a lot of answers

1181
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:17,920
Speaker 1: why do the things they do.

1182
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 2: But for Ivan, maybe for Ivan there seems to be

1183
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 2: at least some answers, some triggers in there yet full answers.

1184
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 2: There's some triggers yet, but yeah, I don't know. I

1185
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 2: hope you all liked this episode, these two episodes too,

1186
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 2: learning about Ivan the Terrible and feeling some sympathy for

1187
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 2: this horrible.

1188
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:38,479
Speaker 1: Monster, or at least for his wives, or at.

1189
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 2: Least for his wives. He deserves some real sympathy.

1190
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, yeah, thanks so much for tuning in for

1191
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 1: this one. We would love to hear your thoughts, you know,

1192
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 1: tell us about the terrible marriages you've had. We'll read

1193
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 1: those on air too.

1194
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 2: I know. Leading it sent to any monastery.

1195
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 1: Hopefully not, or maybe you did and it turned out

1196
01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: great for you, like the first Anah Yeah us an email.

1197
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: We ridict Romance at gmail dot.

1198
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 2: Com, Crater, We're on Instagram. I'm at playing to Mike.

1199
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 1: Boone and I'm at O Grade. It's Eli and.

1200
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 2: The show is at ridict Romance.

1201
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 1: Thank you again so much for tuning in today spending

1202
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: your time with us. Hope you love this episode and

1203
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 1: we've got many more coming your way.

1204
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 2: Can't wait to talk to you soon. Love you, Bob Bay,

1205
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:24,040
Speaker 2: so long, friends, it's time to go. Thanks for listening

1206
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 2: to our show. Tell your friends, names, uncles, and dance

1207
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 2: to listen to our show. Ridiculous Well means