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Speaker 1: Ah, you're doing fine. Just just tell your story, just

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Speaker 1: how it came about. Don't worry about that prepared statement there.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of difficult, but anyway, that's NFL star Dexter

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Speaker 1: manly testifying before Congress in three years ago. Uh that

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Speaker 1: I just begin learning to learn how to read and write.

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Speaker 1: At the time, Dexter was thirty years old before going pro.

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Speaker 1: He'd played for Oklahoma State University, somehow majoring in marketing

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Speaker 1: while remaining functionally illiterate. I took an a CT test

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Speaker 1: and on school to six. He'd never received the right

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Speaker 1: help for an undiagnosed learning disability, but he'd managed to

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Speaker 1: mask the problem. He may morized how certain words looked,

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Speaker 1: cheated on tests, duck girls to do his homework, and

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Speaker 1: he passed his college classes even though he couldn't read

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Speaker 1: the team playbook. And that that really hurt me because

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Speaker 1: then I remember back when I was in grammar school,

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Speaker 1: you know what I was told, And I just felt

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Speaker 1: like that I am done when I was stupid, and

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Speaker 1: that I would have the ability to learn or learn

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Speaker 1: how to read or write. The governing body of college sports,

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Speaker 1: the National Collegiate Athletic Association, claims that education comes first,

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Speaker 1: But how can that be true for players like Dexter

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Speaker 1: Manly who go to college because they excel on the

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Speaker 1: field and then leave utterly unprepared to do anything else.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Calling Bullshit, the podcast about purpose washing, the

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Speaker 1: gap between what companies say they stand for and what

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Speaker 1: they actually do, and what they would need to change

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Speaker 1: to practice what they preach. I'm your host, time onto you,

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Speaker 1: and I've spent over a decade helping companies define what

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Speaker 1: they stand for, their purpose and then help them to

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Speaker 1: use that purpose to drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: at a lot of companies and organizations today, there's still

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Speaker 1: a pretty wide gap between word and deed. That gap

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Speaker 1: has a name. We call it bullshit. But, and this

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Speaker 1: is important, we believe that bullshit is a treatable disease.

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Speaker 1: So when the bullshit detector lights up, we're going to

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Speaker 1: explore things that a company should do to fix it.

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Speaker 1: In this episode, we're going to look at the n

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Speaker 1: C Double A, the institution that shaped college sports into

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Speaker 1: what they are today. The n C Double A says

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Speaker 1: its purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable,

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Speaker 1: and sportsmanlike manner and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher

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Speaker 1: education so that the educational experience of the student athlete

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Speaker 1: is paramount. Man, what a mouthful. But lately there's been

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Speaker 1: quite a bit in the news about a darker side

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Speaker 1: of the n C Double A. We will hear argument

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Speaker 1: this morning in case twelve National Collegiate Athletic Association versus Austin.

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Speaker 1: Then double A has produced iconic matchups, launched professional sports careers,

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Speaker 1: and made billions of dollars, but not for the students

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Speaker 1: playing in these big games. Here is late with the sad.

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Speaker 1: The n c a A didn't even allow schools to

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Speaker 1: offer athletes scholarships until nineteen fifty six. Before that, the

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Speaker 1: only compensation for playing pride, and for decades, the n

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Speaker 1: C Double A has had a long list of rules

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Speaker 1: restricting payments to athletes that is finally starting to change.

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Speaker 1: The Supreme Court has handed a massive victory to college

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Speaker 1: athletes in their efforts to receive fair compensation. The justices

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Speaker 1: unanimously rejected the n double AS rules limiting benefits colleges

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Speaker 1: can provide athletes things like laptops and science equipments or

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Speaker 1: postgraduate paid internships. Interestingly, the Court ruled that by limiting

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Speaker 1: these educational benefits that the n c A would actually

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Speaker 1: be violating antitrust laws because it would make it harder

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Speaker 1: for schools to compete for athletes not about direct and

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Speaker 1: thanks to a separate decision earlier this year, athletes can

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Speaker 1: now earn money by endorsing products and businesses like the

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Speaker 1: local car dealership or pizza parlor. But while these changes

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Speaker 1: are a big deal for players who have in many

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Speaker 1: cases been forced to live in poverty, many people don't

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Speaker 1: think they go far enough. A growing number of athletes

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Speaker 1: and activists claimed the n C Double A is basically

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Speaker 1: a cartel, fixing prices and using the unpaid labor of poor,

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Speaker 1: mostly black and brown athletes to rake in billions. The

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Speaker 1: n C Double A, on the other hand, says they're

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Speaker 1: just trying to preserve the idea of amateur status while

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Speaker 1: helping student athletes get a college education. This is a

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Speaker 1: complicated story, so let's start with a quick history of

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Speaker 1: the debate. It all begins in back then, college football

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Speaker 1: looked a lot different than it does today. Teams used

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Speaker 1: a formation called the flying wedge, where the players linked

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Speaker 1: arms in a V shape and sprinted down the field

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Speaker 1: in one big mass, and many of them didn't even

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Speaker 1: wear helmets. As you can imagine, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: got hurt. Eighteen players die in the nineteen o four

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Speaker 1: season alone, and basically Teddy Roosevelt called in the presidents

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Speaker 1: of Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, which of course we're major

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Speaker 1: football powers back then, and said, you figure out a

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Speaker 1: way to clean this up, or I will shut down football.

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Speaker 1: That's Joe No Sarah, co author of indentured the battle

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Speaker 1: to end the exploitation of college athletes. You got rid

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Speaker 1: of the flying wedge, and they started to allow the

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Speaker 1: forward pass. The next big turning point in n C

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Speaker 1: Double A history came in ninety eight, after a series

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Speaker 1: of sports scandals that involved bribes, gambling, and point shaving.

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Speaker 1: Enter the Sanity Code. It forbade any form of merit

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Speaker 1: pay to students in exchange for their services as athletes.

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Speaker 1: In other words, they should not profit in any way.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty one, the n C Double A got

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Speaker 1: its first full time leader. And this is where the

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Speaker 1: story gets really interesting. They think you have to understand

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Speaker 1: about the n C A is it was almost toothless

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Speaker 1: for fifty years, and it wasn't until the mid fifties

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Speaker 1: that a guy named Walter Buyers took it over and

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Speaker 1: turned it into a powerful, and bureaucratic and ruthless and

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Speaker 1: you know, one step removed from the National Rifle Association.

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Speaker 1: Buyers has been described as a force of nature, secretive, despotic,

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Speaker 1: and stubborn. And he got right to work doing two things,

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Speaker 1: finding creative ways to monetize America's growing love affair with

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Speaker 1: college sports and ruthlessly enforcing the Sanity Code, which meant

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Speaker 1: that athletes got none of that money. Today, the n

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Speaker 1: C Double A is a money machine, generating and estimated

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Speaker 1: nineteen billion dollars a year, and despite years of litigation

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Speaker 1: until just this year, the players themselves, current and former,

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Speaker 1: were barred from profiting from their name, image, and likeness

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Speaker 1: for life, and they still aren't paid for the very

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Speaker 1: labor that makes that nineteen billion dollars possible. After three

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Speaker 1: trips to the Supreme Court, after multiple athlete protests and lawsuits,

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Speaker 1: after several attempts to organize the players and even unionize

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Speaker 1: them to get a fair shake, the n C Double

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Speaker 1: A maintains that the educational experience of the student athlete

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Speaker 1: is paramount. So is that actually true or is that

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Speaker 1: just a bunch of bullshit? To get to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of this, I called up Joe No Sarah, who, as

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Speaker 1: you heard earlier, is the co author of Indentured, The

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Speaker 1: Battle to End the Exploitation of College Athletes. Joe, welcome

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Speaker 1: to calling bullshit. Thank you very much for being here today.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me so. I loved your book. It

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Speaker 1: was a real eye opener starting out. I think, like

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, I had this image of the

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Speaker 1: n c a. A is this hallowed organization that brings

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Speaker 1: joy to millions of people. There's this kind of mythic

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Speaker 1: image of these student athlete warriors, both men and women,

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Speaker 1: who get to go to college on a full ride

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Speaker 1: and play their sport on the national stage while getting

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Speaker 1: an amazing free education, and then graduate and go on

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Speaker 1: to either a lucrative professional sports career or a career

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Speaker 1: in their chosen field of study. How accurate would you

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Speaker 1: say that picture is? Let me stop laughing. I think

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Speaker 1: if we went and passed that description, every single piece

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Speaker 1: of it is wrong. Okay, so let's just say not

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Speaker 1: very accurate. Yeah, it's an eye poppingly big business college sports.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about where that money

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Speaker 1: comes from. Sure, the majority of it comes from TV contracts.

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Speaker 1: That's where the real big money is. Just the college

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Speaker 1: football playoffs alone. ESPN has a multibillion dollar contract to

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Speaker 1: air what amounts to three games a season at the

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Speaker 1: end of the season. The Big Ten not only has

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Speaker 1: deals with you know, ESPN, they also have their own network,

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Speaker 1: so they generate money from advertising and from subscribers. But

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Speaker 1: there's also sponsorships, selling the jerseys in the student union,

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Speaker 1: there's all kinds of naming rights of the stadiums. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: So who gets that money when it flows in? Mostly

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Speaker 1: the schools do I mean, if you're the SEC, if

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Speaker 1: you're the Southeastern Conference and you generate forty to fifty

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Speaker 1: million per school through your TV contracts and other means,

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Speaker 1: you um parcel that out to the schools. Now, what

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Speaker 1: the schools will say is that the money that is

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Speaker 1: made from basketball and football is used to subsidize all

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Speaker 1: the non revenue sports like softball and field hockey. It

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Speaker 1: basically means two sports that are fundamentally played by African

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Speaker 1: Americans are subsidizing lots of sports that are played by

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Speaker 1: upper middle class white students. Absolutely. Some would say that's

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Speaker 1: not equitable. Yes, some would say some have said, okay,

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Speaker 1: So the universities get the lion's share of this nineteen

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Speaker 1: billion and they use it to build these massive, cathedral

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Speaker 1: like facilities. A lot of it goes to the coaches.

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Speaker 1: Some of the coaches salaries that are in your book,

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Speaker 1: We're Crazy, Nick Saban seven million, Coach Achevski at Duke

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Speaker 1: ten million. There's people on the staff of some of

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Speaker 1: the universities, like the strength coaches are making three quarters

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Speaker 1: of a million dollars a year. And then there's the

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Speaker 1: leadership of the n c A Mark Emmett. He makes

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Speaker 1: two point seven million a year, and they're eight executives.

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Speaker 1: They're making north of half a million dollars a year.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of people doing really well off of

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Speaker 1: this nineteen billion. What did the students get, the people

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Speaker 1: actually responsible for generating all of this revenue. They get

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Speaker 1: uniform that's something. They get training, they do get training,

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Speaker 1: that's real. They sort of kind of get an education.

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Speaker 1: But the truth of the matter is that for many, many,

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Speaker 1: many football and basketball players, that education is extremely substandard

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Speaker 1: because the goal of the coach is to keep the

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Speaker 1: player on the field, not to make sure he majors

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Speaker 1: in something that's usable after college. To put it bluntly,

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Speaker 1: the players get screwed. Yeah, it feels like that. One

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Speaker 1: of the statistics that jumped out at me was that

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Speaker 1: of top level college athletes live below the poverty level,

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Speaker 1: and as you've already pointed out, many of them come

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Speaker 1: from poor families, many of them are people of color,

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Speaker 1: and the highly paid coaches and n c A executives

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Speaker 1: are mostly white. So this feels like essentially reverse affirmative action,

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Speaker 1: is the way I think about it. The players are

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Speaker 1: often the poorest students on campus, and yet the ns

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Speaker 1: amateurism rules have long been aimed at preventing college athletes

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Speaker 1: from accepting money. That's what the whole goal was. So

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Speaker 1: for instance, if a upper middle class white kid wants

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Speaker 1: to go home for Thanksgiving, right, his parents just pay

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Speaker 1: war and there's no violation because parents can do whatever

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Speaker 1: they want. Right. If a disadvantaged black kid wants to

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Speaker 1: go cross country for Thanksgiving and his parents don't have

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Speaker 1: the money, he can't go because anybody who would give

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Speaker 1: him the money to make that trip would be putting

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Speaker 1: him in violation of n c A rules and he

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Speaker 1: would be suspended. So the n A basically says, we

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Speaker 1: treat everybody the same. We don't want anybody to have money.

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Speaker 1: That violates the principles of amateurism. But in effect, it

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Speaker 1: affects the black kids a whole lot more than it

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Speaker 1: affects the white kids. In your book, you quote historian

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Speaker 1: Taylor branch As comparing the n c A system too

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Speaker 1: in quotes the plantation. What did he mean by that, Well,

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Speaker 1: he means sort of the same thing that I mean

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Speaker 1: by the title of my book, which is indentured, which

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Speaker 1: is that they're under the thumb of the athletic department

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Speaker 1: a coach. You know, if they don't play well, they

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Speaker 1: can lose their scholarship and be sent back. They often

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Speaker 1: wind up back on the street after their four years

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Speaker 1: are up. It's a system in which they have no power,

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Speaker 1: or at least had no power until fairly recently. And

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Speaker 1: so these players who are making no money are making

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Speaker 1: all these white people, not all white people, if they're

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Speaker 1: always administrators, these adults rich, which is definitely the whiff

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Speaker 1: of the plantation. Absolutely, Joe, What is then, as rationale

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Speaker 1: for treating students this way? Let me back up one second,

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Speaker 1: and just say this, The combination of the recent Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court decision and the legislation in many states to allow

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Speaker 1: players to make money on their name, image and likeness

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Speaker 1: i e. Endorsements and signing autographs and that sort of

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Speaker 1: thing is changing things radically and quickly, and the n

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Speaker 1: c a A is trying to catch up. But let's

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Speaker 1: make believe we're still back in the era when the

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Speaker 1: n c a A. When it was their way or

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Speaker 1: the highway. Their rationale was that amateurism, that not paying

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Speaker 1: players is what separated college sports from professional sports. It

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Speaker 1: was kind of the secret sauce. And they would long

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Speaker 1: argue that if players were ever paid, it would turn

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Speaker 1: off the fans and people would stop going to the games,

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Speaker 1: and it would destroy college sports. It seems to me

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Speaker 1: that that is a testable proposition. Why hasn't anyone asked

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Speaker 1: them to prove this? Well, that's what these court fights

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Speaker 1: have been about. Amateurism, they would say, is not the

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Speaker 1: secret sauce. In fact, it's cartel like behavior that violates

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Speaker 1: the antitrust laws, and its purpose is to deprive the

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Speaker 1: labor force of wages. So each side has their economists

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Speaker 1: and in court over the last fifteen years, judges at

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Speaker 1: every level, from the district court to the appeals court

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Speaker 1: of the Supreme Court have all said that the arguments

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Speaker 1: in favor of amateurism being something that is required to

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Speaker 1: have college sports, they have all ruled at that as

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Speaker 1: bogus and that in fact, what amateurism really is is

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Speaker 1: a violation of the United States antitrust laws. In June

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Speaker 1: of one, the n C Double A dropped its rule

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Speaker 1: prohibiting students from making money off their name, image, and likeness.

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Speaker 1: That was a big win, but it wasn't the first.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and nine, there was another significant score

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Speaker 1: for student athletes in the Supreme Court. O'Bannon versus the

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Speaker 1: n C Double A. That's quite the story. Ed O'Bannon,

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Speaker 1: former n c A champion basketball player at u C

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Speaker 1: l A. He's working at a Las Vegas card dealership,

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Speaker 1: goes to a party and somebody says, my kid saw

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Speaker 1: your image on a video game. So he goes and

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Speaker 1: looks at the video game and sure enough, there's an

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Speaker 1: avatar that looks exactly like him that has his number

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Speaker 1: on the back. So of course his first instinct is,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, this is kind of cool. But his second

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Speaker 1: instinct is, why aren't I getting paid for this? How

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Speaker 1: can they use my name my image without paying me exactly,

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Speaker 1: And that's what led to the verse truly important lawsuit

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Speaker 1: O'Bannon versus n c a A that was back in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, and since then there's been a

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Speaker 1: real shift in how the public thinks about the rights

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Speaker 1: of college athletes. Now jump ahead to twenty nine. California

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Speaker 1: legislator named Nancy Skinners is at a Rotary Club luncheon

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Speaker 1: and she's listening to an economist named Andy Schwartz who

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Speaker 1: is giving a talk about the n c a A.

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Speaker 1: And she thinks to herself, boy, this is awful. Somebody

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Speaker 1: should do something about this. And then she thinks, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm about to join the legislature. I could do something

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Speaker 1: about this, right, So she files the bill that says

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Speaker 1: universities in California cannot prevent or punish athletes for making

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Speaker 1: money on their name, image, and likeness. And here's the

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Speaker 1: amazing thing. In this polarized era that we live in,

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Speaker 1: it passed unanimously. That's incredible, in the House and the Senate.

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Speaker 1: And that really told you that things have changed. So

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Speaker 1: then what happens, a bunch of other states say well, hell,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to give California the advantage. We gotta

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Speaker 1: have one too, or we're gonna lose recruits. And then

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Speaker 1: the n c A says, hold on, everybody, let us

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Speaker 1: figure this out, you know, just stop, and by then

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Speaker 1: then has lost so much credibility that nobody is willing

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Speaker 1: to do that. Understanding that this was a losing battle,

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Speaker 1: the double A finally decided that they would simply allow

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Speaker 1: all athletes to make money from their name, image, and likeness. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of the great fears about this was that only

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Speaker 1: the quarterback would get a big endorsement deal, and that

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Speaker 1: the rest of the you know, the linemen, would get nothing,

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Speaker 1: and that it would be dominated by football and basketball.

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Speaker 1: That is not what has happened. It's amazing that so

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Speaker 1: many of these deals have revolved around women athletes in

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Speaker 1: sports that are not Olympic sports or across or just

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Speaker 1: it's really been Even Mark Emmert, the president of the

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Speaker 1: n c a A, said watching this evolve has been

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Speaker 1: quote unquote really neat. Yeah. I mean, look, I'm not

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Speaker 1: supposed to have an opinion. I'm interviewing you, but that

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Speaker 1: seems nefarious to me because, uh, I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: understand how he suddenly got woke. Well, they're not that woke.

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Speaker 1: But I do think that acts really paying the players

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Speaker 1: is not far behind shifting gears for just a second.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that the n c A has said in

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Speaker 1: one of its by laws is that student participation in

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Speaker 1: intercollegiate athletics is an advocation, meaning a hobby, and student

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Speaker 1: athletes should be protected from exploitation by commercial enterprises. How's

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Speaker 1: that going? That has been the rationale, And it's so

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Speaker 1: ludicrous when they say it out loud in court that

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Speaker 1: even that even the judge has a hard time stifling

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Speaker 1: a laugh when they say that. It's has become so ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: A collegiate model basically says that it's perfectly appropriate to

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Speaker 1: maximize revenue for the schools and the athletic departments, but

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Speaker 1: that the athletes remain students rather than employees. And they

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Speaker 1: always make this absurd distinction between students and employees. You know,

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Speaker 1: when I was in college, I worked in the photo lab,

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Speaker 1: so I was employee of the journalism school, but I

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Speaker 1: was still a student. But the n c A basically says,

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Speaker 1: you've got to either be a student or an employee.

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Speaker 1: You can't have both, can't be both. So the collegiate

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Speaker 1: model is the athletes are students, so they can't be paid,

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Speaker 1: but every other aspect college sports is a revenue maximizing enterprise.

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Speaker 1: So far, the whiff of n c double A bullshit

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Speaker 1: is pretty strong. It's clear that a lot of student

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Speaker 1: athletes have been financially exploited, but what about their education?

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Speaker 1: The n c double A mission states that education is paramount.

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Speaker 1: Since the students aren't getting any of that money, are

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Speaker 1: they at least getting a good education. So one example

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Speaker 1: of the n c A wanting to put education first

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Speaker 1: is their rules about how many hours per week the

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Speaker 1: athletes can practice. So let's say it's twenty hours a week. Well,

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Speaker 1: that sounds pretty reasonable, but then it turns out that

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Speaker 1: let's say they have a game on Friday night in

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Speaker 1: Texas and they're in West Virginia, but the only hours

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Speaker 1: that count towards the twenty hours are the two hours

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Speaker 1: that they're on the field, and the rest of the

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Speaker 1: thirty six hours or forty hours don't count. So there's

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Speaker 1: all kinds of loopholes like that. But more importantly, when

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Speaker 1: an athlete is recruited, it is made abundantly clear that

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Speaker 1: their sport comes first, so that means they can't take

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Speaker 1: any classes that conflict with practice or games, which means

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Speaker 1: that even those who are really quite studious have a

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Speaker 1: very hard time finding a major that's legitimate. And a

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Speaker 1: lot of the players, you know, they're major is communications

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Speaker 1: or physic but really they're what I like to say

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Speaker 1: is they're majoring in eligibility. What's happening is that their

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Speaker 1: academic advisors are directing them to classes that they know

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Speaker 1: they'll be able to pass or they you know, have

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Speaker 1: a good likelihood of passing that will allow them to

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Speaker 1: remain eligible. Right and how many actually graduate? Do you know?

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Speaker 1: There is some controversy over that. The n c A

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Speaker 1: would say it's over. I would say for football and basketball.

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Speaker 1: A guy named Richard Southall at the University of South

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Speaker 1: Carolina has done a lot of work dissecting that and

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Speaker 1: using the federal government's graduation numbers and has concluded that

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Speaker 1: it's much much lower than that, and for black players especially,

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Speaker 1: it can be in the range depending on the school.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy that these kids come into the school, they

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Speaker 1: work on average fifty hours a week on their sport

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Speaker 1: and then have school work on top of it, and

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Speaker 1: many of them don't graduate. It's a terrible grind. You know,

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Speaker 1: you get up at six o'clock in the morning, you

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Speaker 1: go to the weight room. Uh, then you know, you've

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Speaker 1: got classes from maybe nine to three. Then you have practice,

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Speaker 1: then you have mandatory study hall, and you know, go

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Speaker 1: to bed till eleven or midnight. It's really hard. And

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Speaker 1: then you know, a lot of the players are not

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Speaker 1: ready for college work because they've been pampered in high

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Speaker 1: school and a lot of them think they're gonna be pros,

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Speaker 1: so they don't spend enough time thinking about scholastics, right,

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Speaker 1: and how many of them actually go on to professional

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Speaker 1: sports career something like between one and two m Joe,

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Speaker 1: just another question for you about this, essentially the injustice

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Speaker 1: of this system. Why don't some of the sponsors use

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Speaker 1: their cloud to force the n c A or the

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Speaker 1: college is directly to solve this problem. Um, because they

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Speaker 1: make too much money. There's too much money at stake. So, Joe,

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Speaker 1: is the n c a A a bullshitter? Well, of

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Speaker 1: course it is. I don't even. I don't even. There's

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Speaker 1: nothing else to say. Of course it is seems like

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Speaker 1: that is the only thing to say. So on a

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Speaker 1: scale of zero to a hundred being the worst, what

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Speaker 1: would you rate the level of bullshit at the c A.

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Speaker 1: The real bullshit factor to me about the n c

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Speaker 1: A is how orwellian the language is. Say more about

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Speaker 1: that that they screw player in a dozen different ways,

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Speaker 1: and yet they always characterize what they're doing as being

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Speaker 1: the force for good, as being the people who are

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Speaker 1: trying to to save the college athlete. Last question, what

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Speaker 1: is the one thing you would do to change this problem?

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Speaker 1: Pay the players? Okay, folks, it's time to make the call.

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Speaker 1: Is the n c double A really governing competition in

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Speaker 1: a fair, safe, equitable, and sportsmanlike manner and integrating intercollegiate

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Speaker 1: athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of

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Speaker 1: the student athlete is paramount Based on what I've heard

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Speaker 1: so far, I gotta call bullshit. But remember, bullshit is

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Speaker 1: a treatable disease, So after the diagnosis, we always prescribe

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Speaker 1: a cure. After the break, we'll hear solutions from some

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Speaker 1: great minds and activism on behalf of athletes everywhere. Stick

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Speaker 1: with us before you head to the break. We'd love

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Speaker 1: to hear what you think about the show. Maybe you

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00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 1: were inspired to take action, maybe you disagree with today's

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00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: bullshit rating. Either way, we want to hear about it.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message at two one two five oh

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Speaker 1: five five, or send a voice memo to CBS podcast

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00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: at co collective dot com. You might even be featured

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00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 1: on an upcoming episode Welcome back. All right, So, there's

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Speaker 1: a pretty big gap between what the n C double

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Speaker 1: A says it stands for and the actions that it takes.

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Speaker 1: So the next question is what could the n C

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Speaker 1: double A do to actually solve this. We've assembled a small,

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Speaker 1: yet mighty panel of experts and asked them to propose

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Speaker 1: some concrete things the n C A A could do differently.

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Speaker 1: So our first expert is Dr Ellen Starowski. Ellen, can

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Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about your background? Sure.

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Speaker 1: I am a proud member of the faculty and the

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Speaker 1: Roy H part School of Communications at Ataca College, and

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Speaker 1: in a previous lifetime, I started out my career as

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Speaker 1: a college coach, moved on to become a director of athletics,

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Speaker 1: and I've researched, written, and taught courses about a college

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Speaker 1: sport now for we're now moving into four decades, so

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited to be talking about this particular topic today.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. And our second

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Speaker 1: expert is Dallas Hobbes. Dallas, can you tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about yourself? Yeah, so I'm Washington State University

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Speaker 1: defensive linemen on the football team here, originally from Cedar Rapids, Iowa,

429
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: and found my way over to Pullman, Washington because of sports,

430
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: because of football, and really got heavily involved in some

431
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: athletes activism. It's about a year now. It was one

432
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: of the main leaders of the Reunited Movement group that

433
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: was really pushing a lot of athlete activism and stuff

434
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: on the table. So really happy to be here. Fantastic,

435
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: So let's get right into this. The way this works

436
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: is I want all three of us to take no

437
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: more than two minutes to present one idea, the single

438
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: most important action that you think the n c A

439
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: could take to better live their purpose. Alright, Ellen, am

440
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: I going to ask you to kick us off. You're

441
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: on the clock. I think that what's ailing the college

442
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: sports system in Dallas. You're on the ground work with

443
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: the movement last summer is exhibit A. In terms of

444
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: what needs to happen, there needs to be the creation

445
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: of an independent players association that represents the interests of

446
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: the players, because from the early nine hundreds to the present,

447
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: we've had college sport leaders who have been putting forth

448
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: an agenda that has benefited the business of college sport,

449
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: but it has not represented the interests of the athletes,

450
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,479
Speaker 1: and so to the reform is not going to happen

451
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: without that step. That's a fantastic point. There is no

452
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: one really truly representing the interests of the players right now, Dallas,

453
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: over to you in two minutes. The single idea that

454
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: you would want to get Mark Emmert to agree to,

455
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: to get the n c A to actually walk their

456
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: talk minds with the athletes in mind as well, mainly

457
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: the the younger generation of athletes that are coming along.

458
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: I would like the n c A to create some

459
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: sort of program with the revenue that they are generating,

460
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,479
Speaker 1: because there is a lot of it, to set up

461
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: programs for lower income communities athletes that are lacking the

462
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: right resources to get into sports. You know, I was

463
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: lucky to have parents and grandparents um that were able

464
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: to pay for these things, but there's a lot of

465
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: people that aren't even able to get into the sports

466
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: they enjoy and can't even make it to the collegiate level.

467
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: So that's something I really want to see happen, to

468
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: really create some better areas for athletes to get into

469
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: the n c A. Yeah, another fantastic idea, right access,

470
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: which is absolutely not equitable right now, Thank you, Dallas.

471
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: So my turn. I noticed that a lot of the

472
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: talk is about the money, and I think that conversation

473
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: is a super important conversation. But the n c a's

474
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: mission doesn't say anything about money. It does say that

475
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: the n c A exists to ensure that the academic

476
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: experience of the student athlete is paramount. And when you

477
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: look at the academic outcomes, particularly in Division one and

478
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: particularly in the money sports football and basketball, graduation rates

479
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: are horrible. In some cases, twenty per cent of a

480
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: team graduates, and many of the people who do graduate

481
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: are kind of sham graduations because the player got allousy

482
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: or non existent education. The story of dexter manly comes

483
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: to mind. Less than four percent of athletes ever get

484
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: to the pros, which means that a huge number of

485
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: D one athletes leave college and are sort of tossed

486
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: away like refuse, with no ucation, no real prospects, and

487
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: I think that's a crime. I propose that the n

488
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: c A immediately begin forcing colleges to ensure that incoming

489
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: athletes get a real education. Give them all a scholarship,

490
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: but not for a year, not for four years, but

491
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: a scholarship for life. A student athlete should be able

492
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: to play for four years so long as they're a

493
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: student in good standing, and when that time is done,

494
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: they should have a lifetime ticket to return to that

495
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: school to finish their degree, and that scholarship should cover

496
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: living expenses as well. If the n c A wants

497
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: to claim that they're about the primacy of education, they

498
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: need to back those words up with some immediate action.

499
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: They have a great story, they just need to do

500
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: that story. So I'll stop there. I think all three

501
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: ideas are provocative, ellen starting with yours. This idea of representation,

502
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: that's another thing that struck me as just completely unfair.

503
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: That until very recently, although it seems like some of

504
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: these rules are changing, college athletes weren't allowed to have

505
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: a lawyer or an agent, and there wasn't anybody looking

506
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: out for them. Meanwhile, coaches have agents and the schools

507
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: themselves have the n c A to enforce rules. What's

508
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: it going to take for that to really be put

509
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: in place? Do you think it may end up being

510
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,919
Speaker 1: an Act of Congress? Quite literally? Senator Chris Murphy from

511
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: Connecticut has a bill before Congress right now which is

512
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: arguing for athletes to have the opportunity to collectively bargain

513
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: and to have an association that would allow for the

514
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: kind of advocacy that a group like that would provide.

515
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: I want to cycle back to two things that you

516
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: talked about in your proposal for reform with an emphasis

517
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: on education, and the first one is that even though

518
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: in the n c AS Mission statement it doesn't say

519
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: anything about money, within that four and fifty page manual

520
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: that they've got for Asian one, and who doesn't want

521
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: to read that on any given night? I mean I

522
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: read it daily, of course, as we all do. But

523
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: buried within there is a philosophy statement, and in the

524
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: philosophy statement, it expressly talks about money, and it does

525
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,919
Speaker 1: so in a variety of ways. Um. You know, there's

526
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: an ongoing narrative around college sport has been connected to education.

527
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 1: But at the same time, this is a multi billion

528
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: dollar global industry and it really needs to be understood

529
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: as such. And I think part of our conversations around

530
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: reform really need to acknowledge the fact that athletes have

531
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: their interests have been sacrificed. I think that this is

532
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: one of the things that athletes would benefit from in

533
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: terms of having a players association, because this is certainly

534
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: this conversation and Dallas, I think, given the activism that

535
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: the Pack twelve players had last summer, this is about compensation,

536
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: but this is about basic humanity and treatment. This is

537
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: about education, This is about safe workplaces, this is about healthcare.

538
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: And I'd really be curious to know, Dallas, what you

539
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: think about that and frankly, what you think the critical

540
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: issues are. Yeah, and that's something we were definitely trying

541
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: to attack last summer. Our main focus was COVID at

542
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: the time, you know, that was what was at the spotlight.

543
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: But you know, there's a lot more things we can

544
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: put on the table. Health and safety, protections, protect all sports,

545
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: in racial injustice in the college sports and society, and

546
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: then economic freedoms and equity. Economic freedoms are starting to

547
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: happen within I L coming out, which is a big

548
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: win for US education is still in major one protecting

549
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: all sports. We see all these sports keep getting like

550
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: Stanford had what twelve sports discontinued last year. When we

551
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: keep seeing it at other schools, you know, there's a

552
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: lot of main, big concerns that are still happening that

553
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: need focus. Everyone thought once we got in l A

554
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: and all these things, you know, we hit them along.

555
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: It's all it now, you know. So I want to

556
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: return to sort of our main theme here, which is

557
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: what are the actions that the n c A should take,

558
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: and maybe I want to look at it through a

559
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: slightly different lens. One of the things that just I

560
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: found stunning was the degree to which the n c

561
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: A has resisted any of these reforms over the years.

562
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: There have been people trying to change these rules for years,

563
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: and the n c A has used every means at

564
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: their disposal to avoid sharing the money, instituting safety reforms,

565
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: making sure that college students get an education, all of

566
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 1: the ideas that we've been talking about today, Ellen, maybe

567
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: I should go to you. Why do you think that

568
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: they are even today seemingly continuing to drag their feet

569
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: and what's it going to take to get them to

570
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: actually want to do it. We're in such a different

571
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: environment than what we were in the or what we

572
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: were in the nineteen hundreds, but the system itself has

573
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: remained status quo. And I think that's part of the

574
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: reason why there needs to be a players Association, because

575
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: there's no incentive for the leaders to change. In a

576
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: classic labor construction, owners don't change until they have to,

577
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: until there is an imperative for them to change. You

578
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 1: can bring moral arguments to the table, you can bring

579
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: economic arguments to the table, but the plain fact of

580
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 1: the matter is until the power dynamic changes, nothing really

581
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: changes at all. And I think that's what is exciting

582
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: about the n I L era and about what's happening

583
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: with athlete activism in general, and frankly, I think it's

584
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: part of why THEN is failing so badly in its

585
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: leadership right now. It is completely misread the landscape. For instance,

586
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: they've got a convention coming up in November to talk

587
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: about reform, but they did not go to the different

588
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: organizations that are representing athlete interests right now. They didn't

589
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: ask them for feedback, and they stayed internally with the

590
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: people they generally do, and to me, that's the tell

591
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: that they have no intention of really changing unless they

592
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: absolutely have to. Athletes from the ground are making a change.

593
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: I think legislators are calling for a change, and frankly,

594
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: I think the American public is beginning more and more

595
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: to see the inequities and to get with why this

596
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: is so dramatic And Alice, you talked so eloquently about

597
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: the racial injustice in all of this, and this is

598
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: the moment for the n c a A. Not to

599
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 1: be responding to that in a substantive way is really

600
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: deeply problematic. And Dallas, I see you nodding along as

601
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: as Ellen spoke. And you've led some of these activists actions.

602
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: Why are these not more widespread? What is preventing the

603
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: players from really getting together, because at the end of

604
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: the day, you have a monopoly on the sports right

605
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: without players, no sports. I'd love to hear you just

606
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: talk about your experience as an organizer, what the conversations

607
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: were like with the other players, what you guys felt

608
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: like you had on the line, and what it would

609
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: take to really make more of that kind of thing happen.

610
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 1: The biggest thing we call it now is this conveyor bell.

611
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: You're moving along. You're told to focus on your sport

612
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: in your school, and you just keep on going by.

613
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: You know, everyone is grateful for you know, their scholarship

614
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: or the equipment they have, the support they have from fans.

615
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: You know, they're on this conveyor belt and they keep going.

616
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: And then some people, you know, finally get to look

617
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: to the right or to the left and they can

618
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: see outside the conveyor belt. You know, the windows open up.

619
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: I'm grateful. I still I'm grateful, but I have finally

620
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: noticed all the wrongdoings that are happening, all the programs

621
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 1: that could be put in place to see the success

622
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: of the athlete and not just the n c A

623
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: as a whole. I think I talked to probably two

624
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: thousand Pact twelve athletes you know at the time, mainly

625
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: football players, and they, you know, all had concerns. On average,

626
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: maybe like five people from each school that came out

627
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: and wanted to be a part of the United and

628
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: really saw what was going on, and they came into

629
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: our conversation, I came into our zoom calls. They saw

630
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: everything that was happening, and they listened but we also

631
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 1: had another two thousand people we were talking to, and

632
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 1: those people, a lot of them didn't repost it. They

633
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: didn't share the graphic that said they were with us

634
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 1: because they were scared. They sat in all those calls

635
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: and they said, you know, this is what's going wrong here.

636
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: You know, I have these concerns. I'm scared of this.

637
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: I've had all these issues at my school. We heard

638
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: all their stories. Whatever it was, they were scared. Can

639
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit more about that fear? Like,

640
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: what are they afraid of? It comes down to the

641
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: main thing. You want to play your sport and you

642
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: get scared. You want to stay in your lane. You know,

643
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 1: I respect their decisions. You know, some people can't risk

644
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: their scholarships. It's interesting in terms of the framing of

645
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: labor issues in general and athlete activism that whenever you've

646
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: got a group that has the kind of power inequities

647
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: that we've got within college sport, whenever we've got that

648
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: kind of dynamic when players step up and challenge the

649
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: status quo, there's this question about, well, why weren't there

650
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 1: more of you? Rather than really putting into perspective just

651
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: how profound that action was We've got the Northwestern players

652
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: organizing and actually gaining the right to collectively bargain until

653
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: they got derailed with the National Labor Relations Board. That

654
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 1: was an action where people kept saying that will never

655
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: ever happen. It will never happen. And there we saw

656
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: football players who were signing union cards. And then we

657
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: have Missouri where the entire football team boycott's on racial

658
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: injustices at Missouri. So rather than thinking about this in

659
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: terms of who and sign on, officially, we should be

660
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: looking at this as a movement where it's gaining ground

661
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: and it's going to continue to gain ground. Coaches salaries

662
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: are tied to in some cases winning and in some

663
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: cases their ability to recruit top players, but they are

664
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: not tied to educational outcome. Mark Emmert's salary at the

665
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: n c a A isn't tied to educational outcome at all.

666
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: It seems to me that one of the levers might

667
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:37,280
Speaker 1: be tying people's salaries to better outcomes for athletes, whether

668
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: they be educational or remunerative. Depending on whose contract it is,

669
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: you will see coaches that will have bonuses in terms

670
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 1: of their team APR scores and their graduation success rates.

671
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: But think about that for a minute. Of that for

672
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,959
Speaker 1: a minute now. Actually, I don't think that is good.

673
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: I think that that is hypocrisy at the fight, because

674
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 1: anybody who's working in higher education should be invested and

675
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: athletes graduating. And the idea is that somehow we had

676
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: to create a financial incentive for coaches to direct their

677
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: attentions to graduating athletes. That just tells you how sick

678
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 1: this system is and how corrupt it is. Well, I

679
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: agree with that, Alan, but the sad reality of most

680
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: of the world is that effort follows money. And maybe

681
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: that's cynical, but I just think if Mark Emmert, like

682
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: he makes north of a million, if fifty percent of

683
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: that even was tied to academic outcome, in other words,

684
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: graduation rates across the universities, he would pay attention to that,

685
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: and n t A would start to enforce rules that

686
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 1: made sure that those rates got better. Now, you know,

687
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: the n c A created the graduation success rate, but

688
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: it's interesting that graduation success rate compares to nothing. There

689
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: is no metric for graduation success rate for undergraduate students.

690
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: That's where we have the federal graduation rates, and that

691
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 1: comes into play that's a different metric. So the n

692
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: c A has created this pr campaign around graduation success rates. Yeah,

693
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: they get gamed, right, Yeah, So creating that financial incentive,

694
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 1: you're just going down another rabbit hole and effect. Well

695
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: that's grim. Thanks Alan, thanks for bumming us all out. No,

696
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: that was great, And so I want to probe in

697
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: the same area with Dallas because Dallas you put the

698
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: student in student athlete. You're carrying a three point eight

699
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 1: five g p A, is that right? And you've gotten

700
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: awards for your academic achievement at Washington. How hard is

701
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: that to do because that's I would say, pretty unusual.

702
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: How well you're doing in school and in your chosen sport.

703
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: How big a commitment of time and energy is that?

704
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 1: And is everybody on the team doing that? Are there

705
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 1: people who are struggling? Yeah? I would say the biggest

706
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: benefit to my success is my ability to learn and

707
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: seek out as much resources that I can and completely

708
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: suck those dry. And it also helps the fact the

709
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: major I'm in is something I want to do the

710
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: rest of my life. I love art, you know, I

711
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: love digital technology, so it's a passion of mine, but

712
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: it is definitely a commitment once I get out of

713
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: practice and get done, you know, studying playbook, you know,

714
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: watching film, I dive right into school. That's all I do.

715
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: The rest of the day are I dive into work

716
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: that's just super inspiring. Right, and you've found two things

717
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: that you love and that you're really good at, And

718
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: to me, like, I look at you and I go,

719
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: that's the key to life. Right. You find things that

720
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: you're passionate about and you pursue them with like ferocity.

721
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: And the reason I'm probing so much on this is

722
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: I want to figure out how to provide more of

723
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 1: that for people, because no matter how good you are

724
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: at your sport, the number of people who are going

725
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: to go on to play professionally is vanishingly smaller. And

726
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: so helping people find that next passion, the thing that's

727
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: going to carry them beyond their sport and into success

728
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: in life, feels like a vital thing that college is

729
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: supposed to do. That's what college is supposed to be for,

730
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,720
Speaker 1: and it doesn't seem to be working in the case

731
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: of many, not all, but many college athletes. You know,

732
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: I see a lot of other athletes that aren't in

733
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 1: majors that are their passion, but they're in them because

734
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: they fit the schedule of what we're doing. That's where

735
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: instead of you were talking about adding bonuses to coaches, No,

736
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 1: we take that money and we add into academic resources,

737
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: into academic advisors, into tutors, into the resources we can have.

738
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: That's where the money go. And we need to see

739
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: policies put in place that allow for more academic success,

740
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: that allow for schedule adaptations for student athletes that have

741
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: crazy schedules. You know, we need to figure out a

742
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: way where say this person's you know, wants to be

743
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: an engineering or kinesiology one, to be an athletic trainer,

744
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: wants to be, you know, a doctor, but that schedule

745
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: does not fit a student athlete or an athletic schedule whatsoever.

746
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 1: So we need to figure out how we can push resources,

747
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 1: like you said, an extended scholarship that pushes onto six

748
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: eight years where they can take a longer time to

749
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: take a short amount of classes. There needs to be

750
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: put that policy put in place. But instead, you know,

751
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: we see things that are forced where it's you have

752
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 1: to have of your major complete by this time. So

753
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: it's forcing these college athletes into majors that they're not

754
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: passionate about, and then you see a success rate drop.

755
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: They're forced to do do this, but then still hold a

756
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: high grade payerent average to be successful, but it's not

757
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: something they're passionate about. So it's in the end they're

758
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: just gonna drop it when they're done. So why not

759
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: add in resources where they get this extended stay in

760
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: college because only two percent make it to the next level.

761
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 1: We're lacking in support for our advisors, were lacking in

762
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: a lot of things that you would really see increase

763
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: in real sustainable futures for college athletes because it's us,

764
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: the student athletes that are doing the work. It's our education,

765
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 1: it's our future. So we need the money to help

766
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: us succeed and to do something we're passionate about. That's

767
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: very well said, So let me try another area. There's

768
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 1: an economist who was quoted in Joe No Sarah's book,

769
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: and in it he advocates for just an open marketplace

770
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: right now. He argues that the n c A is

771
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: essentially a cartel that artificially holds down wages in quotes

772
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: for college athletes in a collusional and coercive manner. The

773
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 1: economist advocates that it should just be an open marketplace,

774
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: that players should get paid whatever the market demands, and

775
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: that colleges should be forced to compete with each other

776
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: for players and for coaches on the open market, and

777
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: that the market would eventually sort itself out, in other words,

778
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 1: having essentially no rules about who makes how much money

779
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: in what college. Ever, what do you both think about

780
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: that idea? Yeah, I see it. You know, it has

781
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: as positives, but it has its negatives. Both sides have

782
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,720
Speaker 1: super extremes to them. If we're talking about an open market,

783
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,919
Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot of toxic environments. You would really

784
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: see a major decrease in academic success in the education

785
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: side of things, because it be like a professional league

786
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,919
Speaker 1: where say I could get X amount of dollars. Here

787
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,720
Speaker 1: people would be just hopping from one school to another.

788
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: But there are the benefits where players do see an

789
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: increase of financial success, you know, generational wealth, and there's

790
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 1: a lot of good things that could come from that.

791
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: So before I let you go, I want you to

792
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: think for a second and give the n c A

793
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: a what we call a BS score, a bullshit score,

794
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: So on a scale of zero to one hundred, one

795
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: being the worst total bs and zero being the best

796
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: zero bs. What would you give the n c A

797
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 1: A on their level of achievement of their mission right now?

798
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: I'd definitely say it's in that six seventy range just

799
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: because they're not they're not seeking change at all, so

800
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,760
Speaker 1: that just jumps up to score a lot, you know, perfect,

801
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:25,879
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Ellen, Oh goodness, hold onto your

802
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 1: hats and the gloves. Come on. Now, I'm going to

803
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: get in trouble. But you know, if you parse out

804
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:40,240
Speaker 1: the language in that mission statement, you know, fair, equitable, ethical,

805
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: it's no, no, no. So then student athletes in that term.

806
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: And we know that student athletes was an invention by

807
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: the n ci A to a order compensation. Keeping in

808
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: mind that this is an association that's representing higher education,

809
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: is where we're supposed to put a free mean on

810
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: truthful and ethical condom. And so when I put all

811
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 1: of those pieces together, I come at zero one is

812
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 1: what you mean? Right? Total bs? Oh? Sorry, but yeah,

813
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: a hundred good. I was never good mat me either.

814
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 1: But I think it's deeply problematic because even this n

815
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: I L situation, people are referring to this as reform,

816
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,919
Speaker 1: and this is not reform this is restoring a right

817
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: that athletes had in the early nineteen hundreds. I would

818
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: hardly say that this is progress. You know, it took

819
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 1: over a hundred years to reverse that wheel. And I

820
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 1: don't mean to be flipping here, but I think that

821
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,839
Speaker 1: the system really has failed and athletes deserve so much more,

822
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: and frankly, I think that they have been the ones

823
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: that have demonstrated the leadership here. Thank you both so

824
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: much for being on the show today. It has been

825
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: an honor to meet both of you, truly, so keep

826
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: up the good work both of you and fight on.

827
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,720
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Time and Dallas has been a pleasure.

828
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: It has absolutely been a pleasure to listen to you

829
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: as well. I'd like to end the show today by

830
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 1: giving the n C double A an official bullshit score.

831
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: You've heard our guests give their scores, so based on

832
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: what I've heard today, because they stubbornly refused to change

833
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,280
Speaker 1: and have been dragged in front of the Supreme Court

834
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: three times and lost, I give the n C double

835
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 1: a n To weigh in with your own score, visit

836
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: our website Calling Bullshit Podcast dot com. We'll track their

837
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: behavior over time to see if they can bring that

838
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: score down. You'll also be able to see where the

839
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: n C Double A ranks on bullshit compared to the

840
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: other companies and organizations we feature on this show. So

841
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: if you're running a purpose led business or you're thinking

842
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: of beginning the journey of transformation to become one, here

843
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,359
Speaker 1: are the three things that you should take away from

844
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 1: this episode. One. Truly purpose led organizations align their interests

845
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: with as many stakeholders as possible. In the case of

846
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: the n C Double A, they haven't considered the needs

847
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 1: of a major stakeholder, student athletes. Only by seeing to

848
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: the needs of student athletes can the n C Double

849
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: A hope to truly live their purpose. So the question

850
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: for you is what stakeholders do you need to see to. Two.

851
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: Once you've aligned on your purpose and your stakeholders, it's

852
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: all about action. We've talked today about a number of

853
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: actions the n C double A could take to achieve

854
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: that alignment, offering student athletes scholarships for life, or using

855
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 1: some of the billions they rake in not only to

856
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: pay athletes directly, but also to fund a set of

857
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 1: programs to make access to sport more equitable. In the

858
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:03,720
Speaker 1: first place, your actions will undoubtedly be different. The point

859
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:07,919
Speaker 1: is actions are a vital part of being purpose led

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00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: and three. Change in any organization is led from the top.

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00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: This is not something that can be done from the

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00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,919
Speaker 1: middle of the organization. In the n C double as case,

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00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: Mark Emmert needs to model the n C double as

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00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: purpose and use his bully pulpit to advocate for all

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00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: of the n C double as stakeholders. In your organization.

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00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 1: It's your founder or CEO who has to believe in

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00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: your purpose and actively push it throughout the organization. Speaking

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00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: of which, Mark Emmert, if you ever want to come

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00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: on our show to discuss any aspect of today's episode,

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00:55:47,600 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 1: you have an open invitation our thanks to our guests today,

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00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 1: Joe no, Sarah, dr Ellen Starowski, and Dallas Hobbes go

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00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: to our site Calling Bullshit podcast dot com for their

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00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: social media handles. You can also find a link to

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00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 1: Joe's book Indentured, The Battle to End the Exploitation of

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00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: College Athletes, which he co authored with Ben Strauss. While

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00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 1: you're there, check out Allen's white paper This six billion

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00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 1: dollar Heist and a link to some design work by

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00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: Dallas Hobbes. Have any ideas for companies or organizations we

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00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 1: should consider for future episodes. Submit them there on the

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00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: site to Calling Bullshit podcast dot com and if we

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00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 1: scored points with you today, subscribe to the Calling Bullshit

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00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

883
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast us. Thanks to our production

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00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: team Susie Armitage, Amanda Ginsburg, d S. Moss, Andy Kim,

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00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: Hannah Beale, MICHAELA. Reid, Lena Beck, Silison, Jess Benton, and

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00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 1: Basil Soaper. Calling Bullshit was created by co Collective and

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00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 1: is hosted by me Tai Montague. Thanks for listening, hath

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00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: It and I supply before you go. We'd love to

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00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: hear what you think about the show. Maybe you were

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00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: inspired to take action, maybe you disagree of today's bullshit rating.

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00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: Either way, we want to hear about it. Leave us

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00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: a message at two one two five oh five three

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Speaker 1: zero five, or send a voice memo to CBS podcast

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00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: at co Collective dot com. You might even be featured

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Speaker 1: on an upcoming episode