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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's me joshuam. For this week's select I've

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Speaker 1: chosen our episode on art Mysteries. It's a great one.

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Speaker 1: Chuck and I are secretly jazzed by art history, it

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Speaker 1: turns out, and this episode is the best of any

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Speaker 1: we've done on the subject. May also be the only

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Speaker 1: one at any rate. It's a good episode, and I

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Speaker 1: think you'll enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: So enjoy. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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Speaker 1: there's Charles w Chuck, Brian over there, and Jerry's here somewhere.

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Speaker 1: So this is Stuff you should know, the Art World edition.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, I just realized. We record these

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Speaker 2: in two's and we just recorded the Pog's episode, right,

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Speaker 2: And you didn't say welcome to the podcast. I didn't

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Speaker 2: have missed opportunity for a great dad joke.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like something I would skip though, even had

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Speaker 1: I thought of it, or I don't know that I

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Speaker 1: would have pulled.

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Speaker 2: The trigger on I think or I could see you

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Speaker 2: pulling the trigger and then making fun of yourself.

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Speaker 1: Right, But I would have just been engaged in self

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Speaker 1: loathing for the rest of the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Well retroactively, I'm gonna say, I hope everyone enjoyed the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Now let's talk about art mysteries.

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Speaker 1: I love this one, man, this is great. This reminds

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Speaker 1: me of a Stuff you Should Know episode from years back.

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Speaker 1: For some reason.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's because we don't do these top lists anymore.

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Speaker 2: Are part of it, you know, very famously we used

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Speaker 2: to have top tens on our old House Stuffworks website,

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Speaker 2: of which usually there were maybe seven decent entries, so

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Speaker 2: we never did I don't think we ever did a

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Speaker 2: full ten on anything. Maybe somebody could probably correct this,

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Speaker 2: but this one actually came in at seven. They didn't

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Speaker 2: even try, and I don't even and we may do

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Speaker 2: like five of these. We haven't even figured it out yet.

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Speaker 1: We'll see. We're gonna play it fast and loose. I

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Speaker 1: think that's another reason why it reminds me of an

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Speaker 1: old Stuff you Should Know episode. Yeah, Fast and loose.

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Speaker 1: First you got the fast, then you got the loose.

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Speaker 2: But never furious because he wants to be mad. I

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Speaker 2: don't know they should have called out series Fast and Loose.

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Speaker 1: That I think I've heard it before that that series

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Speaker 1: is the highest grossing movie franchise in the history of

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Speaker 1: film like worldwide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You know what's funny is at one point we

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Speaker 2: were this is years ago, we were talking with Ludicrous

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Speaker 2: about doing something with a network, and I, uh, because

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Speaker 2: he's he's a local guy here in Atlanta. And I

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Speaker 2: talked to our boss and said, what's he what's he

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Speaker 2: doing these days? Like I haven't heard any music? And

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Speaker 2: he went, he makes fast and furious movies, Like that's

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Speaker 2: his job now, yeah, because he's just getting rich off

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Speaker 2: of making these movies, like I can't even imagine.

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Speaker 1: And plus also, I mean they're pretty it's pretty involved

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Speaker 1: movie making. I would guess, like I'm sure because there's

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Speaker 1: so many stars involved that, you know, the shooting schedule

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Speaker 1: for each one isn't necessarily you know, a year long

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Speaker 1: endeavor or anything like that, and they probably have it

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Speaker 1: down to like a pretty fast science by now. But like,

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Speaker 1: I would think that would eat up a pretty decent

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Speaker 1: amount of your time shooting one of those films every

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Speaker 1: few you know, a couple of times, well, I guess

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Speaker 1: every few years.

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Speaker 2: I only saw one of those.

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Speaker 1: I think, Man, I'm slowly like degenerating into Bob Newhart. Man.

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Speaker 2: Have you known man good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you could degenerate into worse things than that. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, like I've really I'm really hitting that new

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Speaker 1: Heart note these days.

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Speaker 2: I've noticed that's a great note. I love it. I've

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Speaker 2: always wanted Bob Newhart as my podcasting partner.

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Speaker 1: So well, you've you've there, you go, You've got it.

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Speaker 2: All right, number one on the list. You want to

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Speaker 2: talk a little uh cut of Asio.

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Speaker 1: So Caravaggio is my new favorite painter. Oh yeah, not

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Speaker 1: just because he was a scummy lowlife swordsman from the murderer.

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Speaker 1: He was a gambler, He had weapons charges against him

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Speaker 1: while he was alive. He was not a good guy

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Speaker 1: by any stretch of the imagination. Very troubled person is

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Speaker 1: a really polite way to put it. But if you

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Speaker 1: look at his art, like I had no idea, I've

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Speaker 1: seen like so many works of his art and I

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Speaker 1: never pieced together that they were the same person. And

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Speaker 1: then when I really started to read some criticism of

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Speaker 1: his work, I'm like, oh my god, this guy he's

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Speaker 1: considered one of the fathers of modern art, and this

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Speaker 1: guy was painting at the beginning of the seventeenth century,

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Speaker 1: the early sixteen hundreds, and just like POGs, he burned

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Speaker 1: hot and bright and fast and furious.

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Speaker 2: Actually sadly, Oh, that's right, that wasn't even forced. Nice work,

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Speaker 2: Bob so. Michelangelo Marisi de Caravaggio was an Italian Baroque painter.

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Speaker 2: He at one point in sixteen oh six killed a

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Speaker 2: man name Ramuccio Tomasani and said, I got to get

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Speaker 2: out of here because I'm in big trouble now, and

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Speaker 2: went to went away from Rome and fled to Malta,

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Speaker 2: where he had a pretty brief but I guess, notable stay.

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Speaker 2: He was only there about six months and kind of

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Speaker 2: hiding out and quickly hooked up with the Knights of

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Speaker 2: Malta and was briefly one of the Knights of Malta,

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Speaker 2: like for a month. Yeah, and painted one of his

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Speaker 2: most famous paintings there, the oil on canvas twelve feet

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Speaker 2: by seventeen feet, the Beheading of John the Baptist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was an altarpiece for the Order of Saint John,

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Speaker 1: also known as the Knights of Malta. They were going

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Speaker 1: to again put this behind the altar in their church

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Speaker 1: on Malta, and it was actually his little entry fee.

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Speaker 1: They charged an entry fee usually money to their initiates.

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Speaker 1: But they accepted, Yeah, but they accepted this altars giant

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Speaker 1: painting of Saint John the Baptist being beheaded, and it

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Speaker 1: was actually, I mean, as far as the Caravaggio goes,

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Speaker 1: especially toward the end of his life, it's actually fairly

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Speaker 1: tame because there's not you know, like jets of blood

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Speaker 1: spurting out. It's a pool of blood that's being shown.

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Speaker 1: He paints some really violent stuff and like you said

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Speaker 1: that that kind of that. He was a master of

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Speaker 1: light and shadow. It's called kira scuro and he used

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Speaker 1: it to really dramatic effect, including in that painting, and

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Speaker 1: in fact, one of the other paintings that you might

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Speaker 1: have seen of his chuck it's called Judith beheading Holofernes.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen it?

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Speaker 2: I have so.

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Speaker 1: Judith, the woman who's in that painting, the woman who

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Speaker 1: modeled for that for Judith, that was the woman that

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Speaker 1: he killed. Bernuccio TOMASONI over.

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Speaker 2: Right, did you know that I did?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: You did?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 2: Well? At anyway, they really in this House of Works

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Speaker 2: article they called it a petty squabble and that that

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Speaker 2: really doesn't tell the story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, another explanation I saw was that it was over

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Speaker 1: a tennis wager. And this is real tennis, not lawn tennis,

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Speaker 1: and real tennis is kind of like this kooky mix

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Speaker 1: between squash and racquetball and tennis, and it's all indoors

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Speaker 1: and there's like horse sheds basically involved that you can

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Speaker 1: play off the roofs of It's really interesting stuff. And

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Speaker 1: he used to play that a lot too. But so

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Speaker 1: it was either over a wager or it was over

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Speaker 1: this woman.

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Speaker 2: Her name was what was it, Judith.

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Speaker 1: No Felidae Fellide I believe was the actual woman's name

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Speaker 1: who modeled for Judith. So he ends up on Malta,

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Speaker 1: he becomes a knight, and when he becomes this night

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Speaker 1: he paints his altarpiece and he signs his name in

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Speaker 1: the pool of blood, which you're like, well, he's an artist.

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Speaker 1: That seems like something an artist would do, not Caravajio.

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Speaker 1: This is actually the first and only work of his

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Speaker 1: that he ever signed, which a lot of people are like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, let's examine this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it kind of took a while for it

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Speaker 2: to be even very visible because it underwent some restorations

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Speaker 2: over the years and in the nineteen fifties they did

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Speaker 2: a restoration where they really could see the signature and

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Speaker 2: what it said I don't know about for the first time,

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Speaker 2: but like super clearly at least, and it said F period, god,

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Speaker 2: F mitche lang m I, C H E, l A

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Speaker 2: n G. And then you know, of course, everyone it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: what does this mean because there is no F in

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Speaker 2: his name. It's not like his initial. Is he saying,

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Speaker 2: you know, hey, screw Michelangelo, myself, screw me, or I'm screwed. No,

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Speaker 2: no one really said that. They thought the F. They

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Speaker 2: are a couple of different theories. Thought it was shorthand

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Speaker 2: for fratter or which means brother because he was one

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Speaker 2: of the knights, and maybe he just meant like brother

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Speaker 2: Michelangelo or whatever. And then some other people said, no,

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Speaker 2: maybe it means stands for fesset fecit, which is Latin

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Speaker 2: for did, translating basically into I did it, and it's

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Speaker 2: spelled out in blood, kind of confessing to his crime.

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Speaker 1: Right, So that's kind of like where the mystery comes in.

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Speaker 1: Was he confessing to the crime of murdering Renuccio Tomusoni?

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Speaker 1: From what I saw, most I can't say most, but

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Speaker 1: the art historians and critics that I saw basically said no,

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Speaker 1: he almost certainly wasn't doing that. For one, everybody knew

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Speaker 1: that he did it. He'd already been convicted in absentia,

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Speaker 1: so it's not like he was confessing to it. Although

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Speaker 1: you can make the case that he was confessing in

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Speaker 1: the Catholic sense of the word, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Like before God, yeah, exactly, or de Bear's That painting

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Speaker 2: still hangs at Saint John's co Cathedral in multitude.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, well, I mean it was the altar piece,

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Speaker 1: like they like, it was a big deal that they

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Speaker 1: got their hands on it, because he was a celebrated

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Speaker 1: painter at the time, already in his lifetime. But the

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Speaker 1: other interpretation that he was saying f as in Freighter

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Speaker 1: or Brother Michelangelo about himself, that's probably the likelier version

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Speaker 1: because he was at the time seeking a pardon from

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Speaker 1: the Pope so he could return to Rome, and by

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Speaker 1: saying like, I'm in this holy order, I'm basically like

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Speaker 1: a Catholic holy man now a leader of the church,

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Speaker 1: because the Order of Saint John, the Knights of Malta

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Speaker 1: of inducted me. He was basically shouting it loud and

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Speaker 1: proud by signing that one particular very holy painting that

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Speaker 1: he did.

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Speaker 2: But they said, nice, try, buddy, and they kicked him

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Speaker 2: out for being a quote foul and rotten member end quote.

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Speaker 2: So it didn't work.

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Speaker 1: A month after a month, dude, he lasted a month

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Speaker 1: in the Order of Saint John. And it's not like

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Speaker 1: they ran around willy nilly inducting people like. They basically

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Speaker 1: had no idea that they had. What was Vic's last

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Speaker 1: name in The Shield, victay Beck, No, not victay Back.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I didn't watch The Shield, Oh.

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Speaker 1: You didn't know. It was good. I rewatched like the

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Speaker 1: last seven episodes the other night, over a couple of nights.

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Speaker 1: It still holds up actually, But anyway, they didn't realize

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Speaker 1: that they had inducted him, the guy from the Shield,

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Speaker 1: and they figured it out pretty quickly. So he made

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Speaker 1: his way back from Malta to I believe sicily on

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Speaker 1: his way to Rome, and I think he actually got

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Speaker 1: a harden and got into yet another squabble, another sword fight,

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Speaker 1: and sustained some wounds and between infected wounds, they think

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Speaker 1: he got a staff infection lead poisoning. He apparently had

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Speaker 1: gone rather mad from being exposed to the paints that

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Speaker 1: he painted with and then sun exposure sunstroke on the

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Speaker 1: beach in Tuscan. He finally killed him, and so it goes, Yes,

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Speaker 1: it does. But his paintings are still just amazing. I

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Speaker 1: can look at him all day, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. I like this. I like this stuff.

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Speaker 1: I do too. So that's a Caravaggio. How about Vermire, Well,

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Speaker 1: I think we should take a break. Oh gosh, and

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Speaker 1: we'll be back right after this. All right, we had

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Speaker 1: a great cliffhanger with Vermire. Vermire, the very famous Dutch

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Speaker 1: artist Johannes Vermire, had a very famous painting, a lot

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Speaker 1: of very famous paintings, but one in particular that has

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Speaker 1: had a bunch of names over the years. In fact,

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Speaker 1: it did not get the name Girl with a Pearl

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Speaker 1: ear Ring until the twentieth century. It was called everything

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Speaker 1: from a Girl with a turban to Girl with an Earring,

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Speaker 1: had lots of different names because it was not officially

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Speaker 1: titled by Vermir nor dated, even though they think it

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Speaker 1: was around sixteen sixty five. Yeah, he was just like

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Speaker 1: this dude who lived in Delft in the Netherlands and

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Speaker 1: never left his hometown and had a wife in fifteen

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Speaker 1: kids fifteen yeah, fifteen kids, and it just kind of painted.

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Speaker 1: And he made probably a comparatively small number of works.

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Speaker 1: I think around third six are attributed to him, and

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Speaker 1: there's a theory that as many as a fifth of

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Speaker 1: those were done by his oldest daughter Maria. But he's

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Speaker 1: kind of like this enigma at the time, not just personally,

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Speaker 1: but also the stuff he was painting. There was a

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Speaker 1: huge movement among the Dutch painters at the time that

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Speaker 1: they would paint like these, you know, horrific hellscapes or

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of like obvious narrative and symbolism

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Speaker 1: just all over the paintings. There was just a lot

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Speaker 1: going on. Vermire went a different way where he would

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Speaker 1: almost peek in on very normal daily life and capture

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Speaker 1: like these these really just kind of boring or otherwise

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Speaker 1: mundane moments. But he did it in a way that

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Speaker 1: that this guy was like the master of light. He

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Speaker 1: makes he makes Thomas Kinkaid look like puke as far

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Speaker 1: as like you know, light mastery.

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Speaker 2: So girl with a pearl earring. Everyone has seen it,

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Speaker 2: Like I said, it's very famous it's a young girl

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Speaker 2: looks to be sort of like mid teenage years, looking

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Speaker 2: over her shoulder. She's wearing a dress. She's wearing that turban.

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Speaker 2: Very prominent ear rings, large pearl earrings, and pearls factored

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Speaker 2: into quite a few of his works over the years.

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Speaker 2: And it's one of those paintings where the eyes follow

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Speaker 2: you supposedly, which we've talked about in one of our

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Speaker 2: short stuff episodes.

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Speaker 1: On Mona Lisa.

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Speaker 2: I think, so, yeah, it's, you know, the effect of

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Speaker 2: the eyes following, which doesn't happen in all paintings with eyes.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, the Mona Lisa's eyes actually don't follow you.

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Speaker 1: I think that was the big reveal of that one,

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Speaker 1: was it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? All right, So he paints his painting, and then,

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Speaker 2: of course the mystery of this one is who is

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Speaker 2: this person. There has been speculation that it might be

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Speaker 2: a mistress. A lot of people think it was his

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Speaker 2: daughter Maria, who would have been about fifteen or sixteen,

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Speaker 2: and like you said, who some people believe painted about

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Speaker 2: a fifth of the works attributed to him, because about

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Speaker 2: a fifth of his collected works aren't. I mean this

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Speaker 2: sounds mean to say, but they aren't as they aren't

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Speaker 2: up to snuff compared to his other works, so they

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Speaker 2: sort of stand out from the rest, so they think

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Speaker 2: that they may have been Maria's good paintings.

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Speaker 1: Still, yeah, there's still a lot better than anything I

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Speaker 1: could say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like there were stick figures, you know,

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Speaker 2: out of nowhere.

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Speaker 1: They're like this, Vermere seems off.

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Speaker 2: But you know, if you've there was a nineteen ninety

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Speaker 2: nine novel from Tracy Chevalier, The Girl with a Pearl Earring,

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Speaker 2: and then the two thousand film adaptation starring Scarlett Johansson,

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Speaker 2: who was perfectly cast. She looks, you know, quite a

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Speaker 2: bit like The Girl with a Pearl ear Ring. But

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Speaker 2: this was historical fiction. If you've seen that movie and

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Speaker 2: you're like, no, she was the family's maid's assistant and

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Speaker 2: love interest to Vermire, that was just I don't even

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Speaker 2: think that was based on anything. It's just historical fiction.

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Speaker 1: Yes, from what I've seen, the art critics and historians

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Speaker 1: basically tend to think that there was no person that

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Speaker 1: this was modeled on.

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Speaker 2: There.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't even necessarily his daughter. In fact, it was

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Speaker 1: kind of a trend at the time, a painting called

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Speaker 1: a trony, which was an imaginary figure, a person who

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Speaker 1: didn't actually exist, and the point was to kind of

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Speaker 1: show off things like costumes and jewelry, which is ostensibly

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Speaker 1: the point of that painting. But the thing is the vermire,

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Speaker 1: the face that he did and the place that he

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Speaker 1: put her. Like we were talking about how she gets

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Speaker 1: compared to Mona Lisa. She's called the Mona Lisa of

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Speaker 1: the North. Mona Lisa is like sitting back in the painting.

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Speaker 1: The girl with the pearl earring is like right in

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Speaker 1: the foreground, like right, there's very little between you and her,

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Speaker 1: and she's turned around and her mouth so open, which

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Speaker 1: apparently was very unusual for painting Dutch painting at the time,

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Speaker 1: and it looks like she's going to say something. I

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Speaker 1: guess that is what entrances people with this, this image

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Speaker 1: that you know, what's she going to say? What did

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Speaker 1: he capture her about to say? You know, it looks

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Speaker 1: like she's turning around like, oh, and you know this

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Speaker 1: other thing I hadn't told.

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Speaker 2: You maybe she was an improv comedian. And she was, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: you never know, but this is a mystery that'll never

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Speaker 2: be solved, which sometimes I like those kind of mysteries

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Speaker 2: when it comes to stuff like this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I saw that argued as well that it

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, if we knew who she was,

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Speaker 1: it would just it would we would lose a lot

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Speaker 1: of the interest in.

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Speaker 2: It, and we would have found out by now.

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Speaker 1: I think, yes, yeah, and you're right, we probably won't

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Speaker 1: ever know. But because of this so like, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: like very well thought of, or nobody really thought much

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Speaker 1: of it until nineteen ninety five in the National Gallery

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Speaker 1: used it as the poster for their big exhibit. But

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Speaker 1: since then a lot of people have really kind of

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Speaker 1: examined it. And I hadn't noticed this before, but I

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Speaker 1: saw it, pointed out Chuck. If you look at the

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Speaker 1: pearl earring, first of all, it's improbably large, is how

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Speaker 1: I saw it described, like that the ear couldn't physically

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Speaker 1: hold up a pearl that size. But then secondly, it's

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Speaker 1: really basically made with two brushstrokes. Both of them are

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Speaker 1: reflecting light. One is from the light source and then

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Speaker 1: the lower one is reflecting the light off of the caller.

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Speaker 1: And it's pretty amazing that, you know, we talk about

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Speaker 1: this the girl with the pearl earing, and this pearl

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Speaker 1: itself is is like a kind of a cultural icon too.

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Speaker 1: And it's basically just two brushstrokes, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: goes to show how great Vermir was.

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Speaker 2: Amazing.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever seen Tim's Vermure the documentary? I have not, Oh, Chuck,

350
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Speaker 1: You've got to see it. It's directed by Teller from

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Speaker 1: Penn and Teller, which makes you think, like, how did

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Speaker 1: he direct if he doesn't talk, you know, but he

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Speaker 1: somehow did. I think it's about what that's just a

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Speaker 1: bit and it's about It's about a guy who basically

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Speaker 1: figured out that Vermire somehow projected images that he built

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Speaker 1: in real life onto a canvas and then painted him

357
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Speaker 1: that way, and he actually replicates a Vermir like perfectly.

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Speaker 1: It's really just one of the better documentaries you'll ever see.

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Speaker 2: Very cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so what do you think?

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Speaker 2: On to rafae yel, Yeah, so the mystery here and

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00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,920
Speaker 2: this is one of our This actually has a Simpsons

363
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Speaker 2: crossover as well, which is kind of fun because Raphael

364
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Speaker 2: painted a very famous painting called Portrait of a young

365
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Speaker 2: Man and is largely described as one of the most famous,

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Speaker 2: if not the most famous, pieces of art to go

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Speaker 2: missing during the plundering of great art in World War

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Speaker 2: Two by Hitler in The Gang. And this is a

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Speaker 2: crossover with the Simpsons in that in the Fighting Hellfish

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Speaker 2: episode when Grandpa Abe and Burns are stealing art, this

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Speaker 2: is one of the paintings Portrait of a young Man. Oh,

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Speaker 2: it's one of the paintings that they stole. Wow, which

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Speaker 2: shows that you know Simpsons writers back then at least,

374
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Speaker 2: we're definitely doing their work, like their research work. Because

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Speaker 2: that's a nice little easter egg.

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, totally. Doesn't it even talk? Doesn't it

377
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Speaker 1: say something like someone's guilty conscience or something. I don't

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Speaker 1: remember making that up.

379
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Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't remember. I mean, it's been

380
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Speaker 2: a long time since I've seen that one. But it

381
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Speaker 2: was one of the great episodes, I think.

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Speaker 1: So the Portrait of the young Man, which they think

383
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Speaker 1: was a Raphael self portrait, and actually we have no

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Speaker 1: idea what the colors were because the only photographs we

385
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Speaker 1: have of it were in black and white. But he

386
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Speaker 1: used to hang in the Prince's zar Torski Museum in Poland,

387
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Speaker 1: along with two other really important paintings, Leonardo's Lady with

388
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Speaker 1: an Ermine, which is a scout stoat. I can't remember

389
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Speaker 1: kind of a weasel like animal and then Remembrant's landscape

390
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Speaker 1: with the Good Samaritan, and all three of those and

391
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Speaker 1: everything else, and the princes Are Museum were swiped by

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Speaker 1: the Nazis when they came to Poland and placed in

393
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Speaker 1: the office of a guy named Hans Frank, who was

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Speaker 1: the head of the government for the Nazis in Poland.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, and you know, they almost they almost got

396
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,439
Speaker 2: these hidden away successfully when Poland was being invaded. They

397
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Speaker 2: knew that the art was going to be plundered, and

398
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Speaker 2: so those three paintings were actually rescued by the prince

399
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Speaker 2: and hidden away in a house in a place that

400
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Speaker 2: I can't even pronounce, Sienawa. I'm not sure what that is.

401
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,439
Speaker 2: But they were ultimately found by the Gestapo and handed

402
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Speaker 2: over to Frank and Frank you know, they were supposed

403
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Speaker 2: to go to Hitler. Hitler was going to open a museum,

404
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Speaker 2: the Furia Museum, and Lenz and Frank actually kind of

405
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Speaker 2: kept it for a little while, hung it in his residence,

406
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Speaker 2: and then eventually this thing went to Germany and then

407
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Speaker 2: Austria for a little while, and then back with Frank

408
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Speaker 2: in nineteen forty five.

409
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Speaker 1: Which seems crazy probable that they would end up back

410
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Speaker 1: with him, but they did. And the Allies came in

411
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Speaker 1: to Poland, I guess, and arrested Hans Frank in nineteen

412
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Speaker 1: forty five, and they were able to find the lady

413
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Speaker 1: with an ermine and the landscape with the Good Samaritan,

414
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Speaker 1: but the portrait of the young Man was nowhere to

415
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Speaker 1: be found, and.

416
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Speaker 2: A lot of other stuff too.

417
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Speaker 1: Sure, they definitely did, but the three most important pieces

418
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Speaker 1: in the Prince's Zartarski Museum were those three, and two

419
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: were recovered, one wasn't. And it's very odd to think

420
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Speaker 1: that they were separated at any time, or that it's

421
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: even odder to think that two were kept together, but

422
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Speaker 1: one wasn't. And so because the portrait of the young

423
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Speaker 1: Man was not recovered, and it's a Raphael who's you know,

424
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Speaker 1: one of the great Italian Renaissance painters, it's considered maybe

425
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Speaker 1: the most important piece to go missing in World War two.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they, you know, along with I think over

427
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Speaker 2: eight hundred other artifacts they got from him, and they

428
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 2: could not go on to question him very long because

429
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 2: he was executed just a year later. And since then

430
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: there have been a lot of rumors about where this

431
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 2: thing ended up. Who has it a lot of speculation

432
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: that maybe a private collector in another country has it.

433
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 2: I think in twenty twelve there was a false report

434
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 2: that it was supposedly in some bank vault, and they

435
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: really don't know. It's just sort of one of those

436
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 2: great mysteries of a disappeared painting. And my money is

437
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: on a private collector probably has this thing stashed away.

438
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 2: But you would also think that at some point somebody

439
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: would talk.

440
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: You would think so, and you know, maybe they will eventually.

441
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: Unless it's really stashed.

442
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: Well, some people think it was destroyed. And that movie

443
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: monuments Men, right, they show the Nazis igniting it with

444
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: the flamethrower in a cave with a bunch of other art,

445
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 1: and you know there's a whole camp that says, now

446
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: this thing is It's gone forever. So they did something

447
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: to it because the Nazis were known not just plunder

448
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: but also destroyed as well, which just one more reason

449
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: to love them Nazis.

450
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think this is oil on panels, so

451
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: it's I don't think this could even be like rolled

452
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: up in a tube and put under your bed or anything.

453
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would guess not. No, I didn't realize it

454
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: was on panel, but that makes sense. But the the state,

455
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: the National Museum in Krakow, bought the entire Princess zark

456
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: Torsky collection from a private collector for one hundred million

457
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: euros back in twenty sixteen, and that I know, and

458
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: that included the rights to portrait of a young man

459
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: in case it's ever found. And for now it's just

460
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 1: they have the original frame hanging empty in the in

461
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 1: the gallery.

462
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. Turns out that's a thing I didn't

463
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 2: know as a thing in frames in galleries. It's kind

464
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 2: of sad.

465
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sad. It's very poignant. It says, come home,

466
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: come home. We're leaving the light on for you, come home,

467
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 1: just like Motel six. That's right right, Tom Broke call,

468
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: we'll leave the light out for it.

469
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: All right. Well, that means it's time for another break

470
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 2: and we'll be back right after this to talk a

471
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,360
Speaker 2: little bit about Van goch.

472
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: So Chuck. Before I launched into soaka go away type

473
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: tirade onto you? Is that how you accurately pronounce his name?

474
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 2: I don't know it. It was from the filmmaker who

475
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 2: dare not speak his name. It was from a Woody

476
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 2: Allen movie. I think it was in the most problematic

477
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: movie Manhattan, when he's with Diane Keaton and some obnoxious

478
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: person says Van or I think it's Diane Keaton, says

479
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: Van Gough, and he's you know, he's incense. He's like

480
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 2: Van Gock, Like how pretentious?

481
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: So okay, So instead we're just gonna go with Van

482
00:26:58,560 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: go like everybody else, right.

483
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, okay, And we can cut all that out

484
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: if we want to. Don't you want to talk about

485
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: Widdy Allen? That's fine, sure, sure, I hear you.

486
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: So Van Goh was most he was just such a sad,

487
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: tragic figure out for this guy so much after learning

488
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: more about him, we should do an entire podcast on him,

489
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 1: if you ask me, I agreed. But instead here we're

490
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: going to talk about his death because there is a

491
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: mystery surrounding his death. He's very famous for having cut

492
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 1: off his ear. He definitely did that, and I had

493
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: always learned that he did it to impress a sex

494
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 1: worker who he was enamored with, and he definitely did

495
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: give her his ear after he cut it off. But

496
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: that's not why he cut it off. He cut it

497
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: off in a fit of angst, basically after having an

498
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: argument with his friend Paul Gogan, who he was living

499
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: with in Arles in the south of France, and he said, well,

500
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: I'm going to make some sort of lemonade out of

501
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: this lemon I just gave myself and he took it

502
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: to his I guess a hopeful girlfriend, and I believe

503
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: she was not that impressed with it.

504
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he suffered from definitely depression. There is speculation

505
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: that he had bipolar disorder.

506
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw that too.

507
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: Was you know, just sort of long suffering as an artist.

508
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 2: He only sold one painting before he died in eighteen

509
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: ninety at the age of thirty seven. And the story

510
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 2: goes is that he shot himself in the chest with

511
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 2: a revolver. But it gets a little more complicated than that.

512
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 2: And in what year was the book? In twenty eleven,

513
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 2: there was a book written called Van go Colon the

514
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: Life written by Stephen I'm gonna say, Maifa okay and

515
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: Gregory white Smith, and it seems like they sort of

516
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: launched this idea, or at least really put it in

517
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: the public forefront that he was actually killed almost certainly

518
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: accidentally by one of two boys, younger gentleman that he

519
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: was hanging out with that day.

520
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: Right, So here's the thing, Like, there's a lot of

521
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence that supports that theory that he was killed

522
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: by two boys. There's also it's also circumstantially plausible that,

523
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: you know, Van God died by suicide as well. But

524
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: even if you take his story and start digging into

525
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: it and the statements that he made supposedly made, apparently

526
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: everything we know about it comes from the owner of

527
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: the inn where he rented a room's thirteen year old

528
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: daughter at the time was a witness to all this.

529
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: But even if you take what he supposedly said, it

530
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: still doesn't add up that number one, he shot himself

531
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,239
Speaker 1: in the chest, and most importantly the number two, the

532
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: gun that he shot himself with could never be found

533
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: and instead of actually, you know, finishing the suicide, completing

534
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: the suicide, he couldn't find the gun after he shot

535
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: himself in the chest and just walked back to his

536
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: room where he died after suffering twenty more hours, but

537
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: still to the end claiming that he had done this himself.

538
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: Even if you take all that together, it seems like, no,

539
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: this there's something really fishy going on here.

540
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this bullet misses all of his internal organs,

541
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: very improbably because it deflected off his rib cage and

542
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: he walked, like you said, to the doctor who they

543
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 2: didn't have a surgeon on duty, so they couldn't remove

544
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 2: the bullet. He lived a total of thirty hours after

545
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: the shot and died of infection. Got to talk with

546
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: his brother, you know, was speaking to people, so he

547
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: had every opportunity to say that these two boys that

548
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: I was hanging out with that I was drinking, and

549
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: I say boys, I think they were maybe lateeen's, early twenties. No,

550
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: there were sixteen, Oh okay, I saw early twenties and

551
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: another thing. Oh yeah, but you know, hanging out getting

552
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 2: drunk with them. One of these boys, Renee Sacratan, had

553
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 2: a gun that apparently misfired a lot, and he liked

554
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 2: playing with this thing. He liked to play cowboys, supposedly

555
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: he did. And so it all just seems and even

556
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: his statement, he he said he didn't say I shot myself.

557
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: He said, do not accuse anyone. It was I who

558
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: wanted to kill myself.

559
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is very well.

560
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's ambiguous, I think as far as like because

561
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 2: the idea is that maybe he was accidentally shot, and

562
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: then after he was shot, he was like, this is

563
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: kind of what I wanted all along, you know, I've

564
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: been heading down this road towards suicide and then now

565
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 2: it's just done for me.

566
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: So what seems to have happened is that this gun

567
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: possibly that it wasn't actually murdered or any kind of

568
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: premeditated murder, more like a manslaughter where Renee and his

569
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: brother guests Dollan were messing around and accidentally Basically he

570
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: had seen a wild Bill Cody Wild West show the

571
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: year before and became obsessed with it, so that's what

572
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: he was doing with a gun and playing cowboy, and

573
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: that they had accidentally shot him with this gun that

574
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: was kind of, you know, known to misfire. So the

575
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: thing was that the gun was never found. Renee went

576
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: back to school like right after that, which was still

577
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: in the middle of summer break from what I saw,

578
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: and the town seems to have circled the wagons around

579
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: this this these boys, because you know, Van Goh was

580
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: an outsider. He was not very well thought of. He

581
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: used to get really drunk and argue with the locals

582
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: in the cafe and the and everything, like basically every night.

583
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: And these boys came from like a good well to

584
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: do family. So for many years like that was just

585
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: the thing, like like it just happened. And then slowly,

586
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: little by little it seems to have trickled out some

587
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: support for this idea. Like no, like Vano wasn't anywhere

588
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: near this field. He said that he had shot himself

589
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: in he was actually on the road to the Secraton's house.

590
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: And then finally years later, Renee's Secraton said that, you know,

591
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: he it probably was his gun and that Vango had

592
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: somehow gotten a hold of it. It seems it seems

593
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: likely that he was shot by them, whether accident or not.

594
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And these two authors, they put forth some other

595
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence, like that the bullet went in at a

596
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 2: weird angle that would not have been the angle if

597
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,719
Speaker 2: you shot yourself in the chest, that his more recent

598
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: works were a little more upbeat and a little more positive,

599
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: and that he was not in that kind of mindset

600
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: at the time, and that he had had recently even

601
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: written his thoughts about suicide, that he thought it was

602
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 2: sinful and immoral, and so they sort of use all

603
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: this as evidence that he would not have done it

604
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: himself and that it was you know, they believe it

605
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 2: was an accident. His last words, very sad, where the

606
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 2: sadness will last forever, he spoke to his brother, which

607
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: that's tough.

608
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: Yeah it is. I really do want to do an

609
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: episode on him.

610
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 2: And I think Sekhatan came out in the fifties even

611
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 2: and denied it, right, like finally he once and for

612
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 2: all he did.

613
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: He did, but he also he also said that it

614
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: probably was his gun and that somehow van Go had gotten.

615
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 2: It right, but hey, that ain't my fault.

616
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: No, but to also to back pedal and be like,

617
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: it probably was my gun, because that was another thing,

618
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 1: and everybody's like, where did Vango get a gun? Van

619
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: Go didn't have a gun, no, And no one would

620
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: have given Vang a gutten ye right, he was the

621
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: guy who got drunk every night and had cut off

622
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: his ear before that was like they no one in

623
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: town would have given him a gun. And so the

624
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 1: fact that he even admitted that it was his gun

625
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: is probably as close as Renee Serkatan ever came to

626
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: confessing publicly about it, you know.

627
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it makes sense what he said was do

628
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: not accuse anyone like that. Really seems like he's trying

629
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 2: to cover for these kids that he didn't want to

630
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 2: get in trouble.

631
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, because if he wanted to die, but it was

632
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: also he didn't want to die by his own hand.

633
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: Like this is kind of a lucky gift in a

634
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:12,479
Speaker 1: very strange way.

635
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, I'm going to that immersive van go

636
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: thing in July.

637
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: Where is that?

638
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 2: It is at here in Atlanta. It's at the Pullman Yards.

639
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, over in Kirkwood where they're shoot Like every

640
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 2: movie in Atlanta shoots there, right, Yeah, So yeah, it's

641
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 2: supposed to be pretty cool.

642
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: It's very very neat. Sounds neat, I mean like basically

643
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: they just make the stars come out whenever you come in,

644
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: and I think, so, I think you sit in this

645
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: yellow chair.

646
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 2: I think that's the deal. I think you go in

647
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 2: and you are surrounded by projected art in different ways

648
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 2: from what I can get, that's all.

649
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: I got to check that out, man, Thanks for telling

650
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: me about it.

651
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, it looks kind of cool, all.

652
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: Right, Chuck, you want to finish out talking about.

653
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 2: Hitler don't you mean Hilter.

654
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: Did you know there's Hilter. Oh my gosh, yes, in

655
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 1: the headline, in.

656
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: The headline, did Hilter really do these paintings? Do these paintings?

657
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 2: Who wrote that? I feel bad? But like, did Hilter

658
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 2: really do these paintings?

659
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: That's great?

660
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah he did them.

661
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, Hilter did these paintings. So we're talking not about

662
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 1: Hilter but about Hitler, Adolf Hitler in particular, and as

663
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: everybody knows, Hitler was a frustrated artist.

664
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

665
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: You know, people have made a lot of hay about

666
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: how possibly the world would be a totally different place

667
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: had he been accepted into the Vienna Academy of Arts.

668
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 1: And he came well, I don't want to say he

669
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: came close, but he made two different attempts in one

670
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: year to be accepted, and they basically looked at his

671
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: stuff and said, look, man, you you have the skill

672
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: of a draftsman. Maybe you should go into archit texture like,

673
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: but you're not going to be an artist. And that

674
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 1: was a direct quote. But this was a huge deal

675
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: for him. I think I read that in mind comf.

676
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 1: I haven't read mine, comp but I read an article

677
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: by somebody who read mine comp and said that he

678
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: said it was like a bolt from the blue, and

679
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: that you know, he was pursuing this dream that his

680
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: father would like beat him out of. Like his father

681
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: enrolled him in a technical school. He's like, no, son

682
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: of mine's going to be an artist. He would beat

683
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: him up whenever he brought he brought the idea up.

684
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: And so finally, after his father died and then he

685
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: nursed his mal ailing mother until she died, he got

686
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: up the gumps and did like go enroll in art school.

687
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: And apparently, he, being Hitler, who I guess had been

688
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: fairly bonkers his whole life, just knew that he was

689
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: destined to become an artist. So the idea that he

690
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: was rebuffed not once but twice by this Vienna school.

691
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: These people were like the the the guardians of what

692
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: is art and what is not, and they were telling

693
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: him what you got is not. That was a huge

694
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: deal to him.

695
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: It was a very big deal. And it's funny, it's

696
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: just now occurring to me that there was sort of

697
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: a similar thing with Manson's rejection as a musician. Yeah,

698
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: by the music industry. I never really kind of really

699
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 2: thought of that parallel. But in nineteen oh nine, Hitler

700
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: is trapesing around Vienna and he is selling watercolors copied

701
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 2: from postcards to tourists. So if you've ever traveled to Europe,

702
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: he was one of those guys that was down by

703
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,879
Speaker 2: the river, the river bank van. Yeah, in a van,

704
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 2: selling these and literally copied from postcards. So he did

705
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 2: that for a little while, made a little bit of

706
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: money because you know, if you look at his art,

707
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 2: it's it's way better than I could do. It's you know,

708
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: it's okay. But yeah, like modern and it's hard to

709
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: tell with modern art critics like how much goes into

710
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 2: looking at a Hitler painting and reviewing it, Like it's

711
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 2: really hard to kind of separate those things. But yeah,

712
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 2: the general thought is that he had nothing exceptional about

713
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: him at all. It was he was the kind of

714
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: artists that would sell stuff down by the river to tourists.

715
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,240
Speaker 2: They were fine, he was capable, but they were copycat paintings.

716
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 2: He was copying things. He had no point of view.

717
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 2: He did this in nineteen thirteen as well in Munich,

718
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 2: painting Munich city scapes and landscapes and selling them to

719
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 2: tourists and then in nineteen fourteen got hauled in by

720
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: the police of all things, for failing to register for

721
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 2: the military.

722
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then he went down and registered, and then

723
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: they gave him a physical exam and he failed it.

724
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: They said he was too weak to fire a weapon. Yeah,

725
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: so they arrested him so that they could humiliate him, basically.

726
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: And then when World War One came around, he enlisted

727
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: and they say, need everybody we can get, come on in, and.

728
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 2: He actually did, right, Yeah, yeah.

729
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: Even Hilter. Hilter did this army thing.

730
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 2: Right.

731
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: So when he rose to power in Germany, one of

732
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: the things he did was he had his works collected

733
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: and destroyed. I'm not exactly sure what the thinking was

734
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: behind that. I guess because he knew it wasn't very

735
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: good and he needed to focus on his political career

736
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: rather than his artistic career, or have everybody else focus

737
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 1: on it. But to no avail, because I saw a

738
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six critic or a critic wrote in nineteen

739
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 1: thirty six that his style was prosaic, utterly devoid of rhythm, color, feeling,

740
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: or spiritualism. Yeah, and this was before he I'm sorry,

741
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: or spiritual imagination and this was before he had really

742
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: become an obvious threat. This is nineteen thirty six, so

743
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: even back then, even without hindsight, people thought his stuff

744
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: wasn't very good. So, yeah, he had his stuff destroyed

745
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: and that's he It was kind of a footnote for

746
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: a very long time that he was an artist, and

747
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: no one really cared after his death.

748
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this, and that was one of the

749
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 2: major reasons that he was such an art plunderer during

750
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: the war and stole as much art as he could

751
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 2: from real famous artists and famous paintings because he had

752
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: all this backstory as a failed artist, and it was interesting.

753
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 2: I did see that like one of his major I mean,

754
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: because he wasn't an utter failure at first. He had

755
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: a backer early on. I think he was a Jewish Man. Yeah,

756
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 2: which was really interesting, and there was I don't know, man,

757
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 2: it's there's a lot of speculation about what that all

758
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: meant to him, and like people try and draw parallels,

759
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: just like some of the paintings I saw, I mean,

760
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: some of it feels like a stretch, definitely, like the

761
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 2: you know, the cold the Cold Street of Munich, like

762
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 2: were painted like clearly with a future cleansing in mind

763
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: to make it look like this, and that's a stretch. Yeah,

764
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 2: some of that stuff seems like a stretch, But you

765
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 2: could definitely read into the backstory at least I think

766
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 2: with some accuracy.

767
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, And even if like you can't necessarily suss out

768
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: like the future from his paintings, you can make a

769
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: pretty strong case that his artistic ambitions being utterly crushed, yeah,

770
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: had some sort of driving force or impact on a

771
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: psyche at the very least. Sure like that and his

772
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: later political career and dictatorship did not exist in a vacuum.

773
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: I don't think you can possibly make the case that

774
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 1: they were just unrelated in any way.

775
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 2: No. I think any sociopath you can look at their

776
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 2: past and see the dots connected, you know. Yeah, So,

777
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 2: like you said, there was this kind of just was

778
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: the deal for a long time. And then in like

779
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 2: anything else, like people wanting to get original Charles Manson

780
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: music reels, in the early late nineties early two thousands,

781
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: there was a market for Hitler's work. I think in

782
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine a British auction house someone paid

783
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty grand for fifteen early sketches and watercolors,

784
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 2: including a self portrait, and then in twenty fifteen, some

785
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 2: unnamed investors paid four hundred and fifty thousand dollars for

786
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: a set of watercolors. I think there were twelve or

787
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 2: thirteen that survived.

788
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, the problem is is because he didn't have a

789
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: style of his own, that he was copying postcards, that

790
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: he didn't have any formal training, and that he was

791
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: he lacked like a lot of creativity or any creativity.

792
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: It seems like it's really hard to say this is

793
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: a Hitler and this is a fake, And there's been

794
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: developed a really a really enormous market of fakes because

795
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: anybody who's like a passingly good good artists in watercolors

796
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: of street scapes and landscapes could drum up something and

797
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: be like, this is a Hitler, and it would be

798
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: really difficult to say yes it is, or no it's not.

799
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, what kind of a garbage human do you have

800
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 2: to be to think I'll do Hitler forgeries and try

801
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 2: and sell them to garbage humans that want to collect them.

802
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not like these are even fetching like

803
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 1: ten million dollars apiece. We're talking like you might get

804
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars for it for your your Hitler forgery.

805
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: Unbelievable but totally believable.

806
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: So that's the mystery of the Hitler paintings. Did he

807
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: do this?

808
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah? Did he do those paintings?

809
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 1: You got anything else?

810
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 2: I got nothing else. That was a good five. I

811
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 2: think we have committed to doing a robust episode on

812
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 2: the Gardener Museum heist because that's a good one and

813
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 2: that was on this list and way underplayed for sure.

814
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: So keep it near out for that, everybody. And since

815
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: I said keep a near out for that, I think

816
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: it's time for listener mail.

817
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm gonna call this middle names because we had

818
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: a little discussion in our John Mure episode about how

819
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: Emily and I and our friends justin Melissa one night,

820
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 2: we're going by our middle names as a joke, and

821
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 2: I had the theory that you have no emotional connection

822
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 2: to your middle name if you don't have a reaction

823
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 2: when you hear it set out loud, and I just

824
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 2: meant sort of the non dominant name. It didn't necessarily

825
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 2: mean middle names because my brother goes by his middle name.

826
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 2: Scott is his middle name, and some people do that.

827
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 2: It's a thing and certainly Amy does. She said, I

828
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: was listening to the show and at the end you

829
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: were chatting about using middle names and how you don't

830
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 2: have an emotional connection when you hear it. I have

831
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 2: an interesting situation that everyone everyone in my family uses

832
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: their middle names. So I've always been called Amy ever

833
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 2: since I was born, but my first name is Helen.

834
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 2: This causes an interesting situation at airports and doctor's appointments

835
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 2: where they refer to me as Helen, and I always

836
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 2: have to remember that they're talking to me. A big

837
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: fan of the show kept me curious and my curious

838
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 2: spirits satisfied over the last three or four years, and

839
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: it's such a comfort knowing there's always another episode to

840
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 2: listen to. Best wishes from the UK. They're always so

841
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 2: nice and that is sure Amy, Helen Amy.

842
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 1: Thanks Helen. Amy. Wolves call her Amy as is customary.

843
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we say Helen, She's like, who.

844
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: Wow. I can't wait until they read my listener mail,

845
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 1: says Amy. If you want to be like Amy and

846
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: get in touch with us for whatever reason, you can

847
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: send us an email to Stuff Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

848
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio For

849
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

850
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

851
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: F