WEBVTT - Michael Rohatyn & Lindsay Owens 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.160 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.160 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:10.600 today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:12.960 we don't have a great show for you today. Michael 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:17.840 Rohattan on his documentary Drop Dead City. It's an amazing 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:21.279 portrait of New York City in the seventies when it 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:23.959 ran out of money. But first we have the Groundwork 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:30.080 Collective's own Lindsey Owens on the Groundwork Collectives blockbuster reporting 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.880 on Instacart's dynamic pricing scam. 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:36.520 Welcome to Fast Politics. 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.960 Thanks for having me explain to us what the Groundwork 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.760 Collective is and how you got involved. 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.320 So Groundwork Collaborative is a think tank based in Washington, 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:50.000 d C. We're focused on building an economy that works 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:52.560 for all of us. The last five years or so, 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:57.160 that has meant we have been laser focused on high prices, 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:00.640 cost of living, affordability. This is the time issue that 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:03.960 Americans care about, and every poll that we have fielded 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.040 for five years now Americans are laser focused on the 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.760 price of groceries, the price of housing, the price of healthcare, 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:13.440 the fact that inflation was rising. Now we have Trump's tariffs, 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:17.000 and so we spend most of our time thinking about 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.319 why our price is high, who is to blame, what 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:21.200 we can do about it? 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:26.440 Okay, so this gets us to instacard discuss. 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.640 Yeah, so, look, Americans are really frustrated with grocery prices. 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:35.280 If you ask Americans which prices vex them the most, 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.880 they say grocery prices. It's not super surprising because you 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.160 buy a lot of groceries, right, You don't buy one grocery, 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.040 you don't buy one card of groceries. You go to 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:45.920 the grocery store a couple times a week. You go 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.840 to the grocery store all year long. And grocery prices 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.760 have been high, sometimes outpacing inflation for years now. 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:54.440 And there are a lot of reasons for this. 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:59.920 There are reasons related to not enough competition in agricultural market. 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:04.000 There are reasons related to the president's tariffs. You know, 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.000 we did a report at Groundwork looking at why Thanksgiving 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:09.920 prices were high. To put food on the table for 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.600 Thanksgiving one of the culprits. People buy a lot of 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.440 cans at Thanksgiving. They buy canned pumpkin candy, cranberry sauce, 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.520 cand green beans. Steel tariffs mean that even cheaper items 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:23.440 like can goods are up. But there's another reason why 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:28.600 grocery prices are high, and that is because increasingly grocers 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:34.040 and grocery delivery platforms like Instacart are running tests on 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.359 American shoppers to determine exactly how much they can get 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:40.919 away with charging them and to squeeze it out of them. 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:43.720 And we knew Instacart was doing this because this has 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:47.520 been a part of Instacart's business development and business model 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:51.240 for years now. In twenty twenty two, then CEO of 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:57.560 Instacart acquired an AI pricing tech company called Eversite. Eversite Technology, 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.000 the thing that they offer is the ab to build 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:05.440 out these large scale experiments that shoppers don't realize they're 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:10.440 in on to help companies fine tune and calibrate their pricing, 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.680 to really figure out the maximum amount you'll pay for 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.560 something before you pull it out of your cart or 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.720 log off Instacart altogether walk into the store and buy 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.680 your groceries another way. And so we knew this was happening. 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:25.800 It wasn't exactly a secret, it was sort of hiding 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.720 in plain sight from our perspective, and we wanted to 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:32.480 understand exactly how much it could be costing shoppers and families, 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:37.760 And so we turned instacarts experiment back around on the company. 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.360 And that's really how this project gets started. 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.800 You turn the experiment background in the company and what 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:44.560 do you discover. 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.600 Yeah, so we partnered with Consumer Reports and a news 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.120 outlet called more Perfect Union to recruit more than four 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:55.880 hundred volunteer secret shoppers. We have them log onto the 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.960 instacart app. We have them put the exact same twenty items, 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.960 same twenty grocery items in their carts at the exact 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.280 same time from the exact same pickup location. So these 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:11.160 were Safe Way stores and Target Stores and North Canton, Ohio, 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:13.360 and Seattle, Washington, and Washington, d C. 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.360 And Saint Paul, Minnesota. And then once all of. 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:18.960 The groceries are in their instacarts, we had them take 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:23.840 screenshots of the prices and we collected all of those screenshots. 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.040 The team at the Groundwork Collaborative entered the data by hand. Right, 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:28.800 you have to sort of, you know, look at the 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.200 screen shots, look at the prices, enter the data and 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.680 we analyzed the data. And what we found is seventy 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.240 five percent of the items in the carts were offered 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:42.920 at different prices to different customers, and that one hundred 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:46.080 percent of the shoppers in our study ended up in 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.280 some condition of the experiment at some point in the study, 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.040 and that the price differences weren't small. This wasn't sort 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.800 of like teeny tiny ab testing where they're trying to 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:58.680 figure out if you like the blue can or the 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.560 yellow can, or if you're more likely to buy something 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.680 with what we call charm pricing, right, something at three 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.520 ninety nine versus something at four dollars in one cent. 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:10.640 The price differences in our study were as high as 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.880 twenty three percent. So you and I picking out the 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.120 exact same box of wheat thens from Target and you 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.680 being charged twenty three percent more than me. Now again, 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.599 because you don't buy only one box of wheat THENDS 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:25.440 when you go grocery shopping, you buy a whole basket 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:29.039 of groceries. We look at the pricing variation across the 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:34.280 entire basket, and then we use instacart's own analysis of 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.840 how much a family of four a household of four 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.000 spends on groceries in a given year, and we estimate 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.280 that this experiment, I'm calling it the Instacart tax for 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:47.640 simplicity could cost a family as much as twelve hundred 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:52.400 dollars a year. So this is really a significant amount 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.440 coming from this Instacart experiment. 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.320 I shop sometimes on Instacart. It seems really expansive. 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.560 Yeah, but is it really expensive or is it expensive 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.360 for some people and not for other people. 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:06.599 Yeah, it's a great question. 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.960 So there are certainly aspects of shopping on instacart that 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.359 are expensive for everyone. Right, you pay a premium for 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.200 the convenience of Instacart. You're going to pay a service fee, 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:20.240 a delivery fee, potentially a tip, right, all of those pieces. 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:24.200 We also know that instacart prices are sometimes just higher 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.359 than in store prices, right. So that's something that is 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.840 true but can be consistent across all shoppers. We also 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.800 know that there are some additional levees that Instacart charges 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.320 for certain items. Heavy items, it's harder to get those 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.800 delivered to you. Fragile items like a bouquet of fresh flowers. 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.400 Can't stick that in your trunk if you're a delivery driver. 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:45.520 So there are a whole host of ways in which 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.520 Instacart is expensive. This is a new additional way in 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.080 which instacart can be expensive, which is that on top 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.120 of all of those fees which we call drip pricing, right, 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:58.279 these little fees that get tacked on at different stages 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.400 of the transaction, on top of all of that, you're 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.080 also effectively a guinea pig in this experiment. And if 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:09.400 you're unlucky, if you're in the sort of gouge treatment 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.600 condition and not the discount treatment condition, you could also 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:16.200 be paying a premium as a result. So this piece 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.760 is variable. Some people are lucky, some people are not. 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:22.880 But for those who aren't, and again, you know, we 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.000 found that seventy five percent of items were offered at 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.280 variable prices. One hundred percent of people in our study 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.880 were subject to some variable pricing. You know, this can 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:35.360 be a substantial additional amount of pricing that's getting layered 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:36.960 in to your grocery bill. 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:41.200 So now explain to us why this is not okay? 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:43.679 Yeah, I think there are two answers to this question. 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.600 There's sort of morally why this isn't okay, and I 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:48.640 think there are some good answers to that. And then 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:53.120 there's legally whether this is okay? Does it pass legal muster? 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:57.280 And then the intersection of those two presents the question 0:07:57.360 --> 0:07:59.840 that policymakers are asking right now, which is like, to 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:02.640 the extent that this is legal if we don't feel 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:04.640 like it should be, because we don't feel like it's fair, 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.400 we don't feel like it's right, should we be pursuing, 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.520 you know, new legislation something like that to curtail this. 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.880 So from the moral perspective, it feels unfair because we're 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:16.600 used to a public price. 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:18.080 We're used to a price tag. 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:19.480 If you and I are standing in line at the 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:21.520 grocery store check out together and we're both holding the 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.080 same box of cheerios, you and I expect to, say, 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.680 pay the same price for that box of cheerios. And 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:29.080 it doesn't feel right that if we stepped out of 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.720 line together and fired up our phones and got that 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:34.880 same box of cheerios on Instacart, that you and I 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:38.400 might pay different amounts because it's easier for them to 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:42.719 run these experiments in this online setting where we're atomized. 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:44.480 You and I were sitting on our couches at home. 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:46.719 I don't know I don't know you, I don't know 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.520 what you're buying. I don't know that you're getting charged 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.080 more than me, your time's very valuable. They've figured that 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.400 out right, and they're like, this woman doesn't have time 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.160 to go to the grocery store, like we're going to 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:00.360 go for gold with her, right, And that doesn't feel there. 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:02.480 I think the other thing that doesn't feel fair is 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.680 how deceptive this is. I think the backbone of a 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:09.120 healthy economy is fair and honest markets, and the fact 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.480 that we don't know that we're the guinea pigs in 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:16.079 this grand Instacart eversight AI experiment doesn't feel right. There's 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:20.679 a sort of transparency problem here. It's opaque, it's arguably deceptive. 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.000 The final thing that I would argue, in addition to 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.200 the fact that it's just costing us more right, these 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:29.480 companies are extracting all of our consumers surplus and we 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:33.920 can decide that, yeah, maybe that's okay in a capitalist economy, 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:34.440 but we don't have. 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:34.920 To like it. 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:40.240 The final thing for me that doesn't sit well is predictability. 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.160 It is really hard to budget for things that you 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.439 know you need, like groceries, if you have no idea 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:47.320 what it's going to cost from one week to the next. 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.040 Part of the reason that people find inflation so uncomfortable. 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:55.679 Is it adds that element of volatility to essential items 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:57.960 and we start to wonder where we have enough money 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.800 left when the music finally stops. And I think this 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:05.240 instacart experiment is adding volatility and uncertainty and unpredictability. So 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:06.959 I think those are all the reasons why I think 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.440 it doesn't sit well with people, and arguably I think 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.040 some of them, you know, do constitute a sort of 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.600 violation of economic norms of fairness that lawmakers should take 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:17.839 a look at. Whether or not it's legal, I think 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.760 depends upon a few things. My sense, and we have 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:25.280 been talking to legal scholars and attorneys general and people 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.719 like that, is, you know, we already have laws protecting 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:32.440 us against unfair and deceptive acts and practices. 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:33.480 These are called you'd. 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:36.400 App laws, and I think there's maybe a case to 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:41.560 be made here that this particular experimental design violates those 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:45.000 DApp laws. And so I am actually interested to see 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.040 if we may see some legal action coming down the 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.959 pike here to sort of take this on and say, actually, 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.679 we think this is already something that a company like 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:55.120 in Stickhardt shouldn't be able to. 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:55.600 Do to us. 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:00.120 There have been further legal conversations and conversations with policy 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.360 makers and lawmakers about better understanding whether or not our 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.880 personal data is being used in the experiment. So is 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.240 the experiment random or is this that they've taken a 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:13.679 look at our shopping history, They've taken a look at 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.880 demographic information that they have about us because they've purchased 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:20.079 it from third party data sellers, and that's actually being 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:22.800 used to determine whether we're in the discount condition or 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.960 the guage condition. And I think if that is the case, 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.280 it's something that looks more like personalized pricing, what we 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.800 call surveillance pricing, where pricing is varying based on the 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.280 individual characteristics of the consumer. And there is actually a 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.640 nice kind of movement afoot to curtail the practice of 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.160 surveillance pricing, and New York State actually just took the 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.840 first action, and just last month in November, in New 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.160 York State, there is now a requirement that companies let 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.440 you know through disclosure if they are using your data 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:57.080 and their algorithm to set your prices. And so in 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.520 New York, now if you're shopping online, you'll get that 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.600 disclosure or if that's indeed happening. But in the US Congress, 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.560 Senator Reuben Diego last week introduced legislation to ban the 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.200 practice of surveillance pricing, and that follows action earlier this 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:14.520 year in the House of Representatives, Representative Greg Kassar offered 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.320 similar legislation. So there are some thorny questions here about 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.360 is this a deceptive issue? 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:22.280 Therefore maybe UDAP covers it. 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.800 Is this new terrain of surveillance pricing, therefore we need 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.079 sort of new laws to curtail it. 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:34.400 Can you talk about what else you guys are working on, 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.480 what other investigations you've done, what other investigations you're doing, 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:42.360 or what sort of what other focuses you guys have. 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.080 Yeah, So one of the things that we've been interested 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.600 in looking at is pricing around sports. 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.560 Which is also similar. Yeah. 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:52.839 Yeah, we're in the New York Times this morning and 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:57.480 the Athletic with some comments about our concerns about how 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:01.920 FIFA has allocated World Cup tickets, and you know, as 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.839 you know, they've sort of changed their tune a little 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.320 bit and they're making some additional tickets available at some 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.600 you know, firer and lower prices. But you know, when 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:16.000 you have scarce resources like seats in a stadium or 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:19.440 plane tickets. You often see dynamic pricing, right. This is 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.840 the idea that as the number of seats shrinks, the 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.720 price goes up. When there's two seats left, Like, the 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:27.520 price really goes up, right when you need a last 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.560 minute plane ticket, or you want the last seat at 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.480 a concert or a World Cup game, World Cup playoff game. 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.960 And you know what we talk about in the piece 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:37.760 and what we argue in the piece is there are 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.560 a lot of different ways to allocate scarce resources. You 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.840 can allocate them based on ability to pay, which is 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:47.360 what many people choose, many companies choose, and what FIFA 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.559 chows initially. But you can also allocate them based on lottery. 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.680 You can allocate based on queuing, first come, first serve. 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:55.960 I mean, I remember when I lived in Palo Alto 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:56.760 for a while. 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:57.840 A long time ago. 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.640 We'd watch these people line up and camp out and 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.200 sleep outside the Apple store, right, like the price of 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.680 the iPhone didn't change, but they wanted to be first 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:07.440 in line because they wanted to get the next batch. 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:07.800 Right. 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:09.080 So, there are a lot of different ways you can 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.040 allocate scarce resources. But what many companies do and what 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.559 FIFA decided to do is prioritize ability to pay, and 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.840 the result is you're going to have passionate fans watching 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.440 from their couch and hedge fund managers watching, you know, 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.640 from the sidelines. We've also been really interested in stadium 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.080 pricing concessions in stadiums. This is something that came up 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:32.920 with soon to be Mayor's or on Mandami's team recently 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:34.680 and there was there was a sort of I don't 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:36.040 know what you would call it. There was a Twitter 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:40.240 brew haha about to be except that that matters anymore. 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:44.440 But basically, you know, sort of our argument is that 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.760 you know, it's okay to prioritize the fans and pricing decisions, 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.200 and just because you have a captive audience doesn't mean 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.320 you need to gouge people. And also, our tax dollars 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:58.920 go to creating these stadiums, our labor goes to making 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:04.240 sure they're our ancillary businesses developed around the stadiums, and 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.400 it would be okay if there were rules saying you 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.560 got to charge the same amount for a pepsi inside 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.040 the stadium as you charge down the street. There are 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.320 actually places in the country that do that. The Portland 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:17.600 Airport is one of the only airports in the country 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.360 where you can get a bottle water and you know, 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.000 some p tog at a normal price. 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:24.560 Right. 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.800 We have something called street pricing, right, which is this 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.080 idea that prices outside and inside can be similar and 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:33.760 just because they've got you over a barrel doesn't mean 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.280 they get to shoot you. So we've been really focused 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:40.760 on understanding norms around pricing and thinking about different ways 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.920 in which lawmakers could regulate pricing. And by the way, 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.560 companies can take this on voluntarily. So you know, I 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.600 do think as pricing gets more volatile and more opaque, 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.720 there will be more kind of white hat companies who say, hey, 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.720 you come to Owens's store, like we're not going to 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.920 use electronic shelf label that where the price changes all 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:03.280 day long, Like if you walk it. 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:04.840 In the morning, the price will be four dollars. 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.440 If you come back in the afternoon because you forgot 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:09.440 something or you need another one, the price will still 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:11.680 be four dollars. And I think we will start seeing 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:13.720 some of that backlash. And you know we already have 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.560 in sports, we have the Savannah bananas, which is a 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:18.880 real sensation. 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.560 In the baseball sort of world. 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.200 And you know, Jesse Cole, who runs the Savanna Bananas, 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.360 has said, look like I'm in the business of creating 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:29.080 a positive experience, a memorable experience for fans and their families, 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.400 not in the business of charging you whatever I can 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.880 get away with charging you. So they use lottery systems, 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.320 they have all in pricing for concessions, all sorts of 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:37.880 things that they do a little differently. 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:39.400 I think it'll be great to see more of that. 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.720 So interesting. I hope you will come back with your 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:43.680 next investigation. 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:45.640 Yeah, happy too, that would be great. 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.560 We have exciting news over on our YouTube channel. The 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.960 second episode from our Project twenty twenty. 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:58.520 Nine series is out now. 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.840 It's a reimagining where we examined what went wrong with 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:05.040 democrats approach to politics and how we can correct it 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:08.800 and deliver changes to help people's lives. The first episode 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:13.400 dove into the very sexy topic of campaign finance reform, 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:17.159 and our second episode deals with an even sexier topic, 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:23.480 antitrust and regulation. We look at how antitrust and regulation 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:28.920 can protect American citizens and make America thrive in an 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:33.840 era of rampant corruption and predatory crony capitalism. We talk 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:37.240 to the smartest names in the field, like Lena Kahan, 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:42.359 Elvero Bedoya, Elizabeth Wilkins, and Doha Mecki. 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.399 Republicans were prepared for when they got the levers of power. 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.920 We need democrats to be too, So please head over 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.600 to YouTube and search Molli John Fast Project twenty twenty 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:58.240 nine or go to the Fast Politics YouTube channel and 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:03.800 find it there and help spread the word. Michael Rohantan 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:08.439 is the director of the documentary Drop Dead City. 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:10.760 Welcome to Fast Politics. 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:12.920 Michael, thank you for having me talk. 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:14.200 To us about this movie. 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:16.240 You know, as someone who wrote a book about their mother, 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.399 this is a sort of interesting way to process the 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.960 familial connection, So talk to us about how you got here. 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.960 That's interesting that you frame it that way. That I 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.399 made the film with my friend Peter Yost, and I 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.640 sort of pitched it to him as an idea after 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:36.080 having spent time with my father and that cohort of 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:40.440 old lions, where I saw how still, you know, vibrant 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.960 they were with the whole energy of their experience. But 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:45.760 I didn't want to make a film about my father 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:47.919 that was really like that would have bothered me. There 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.960 are so many puff piece. Not what you did is 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:52.359 about you and your mother. 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.040 I didn't want to do a movie about me explain 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:56.919 to listeners who your father is. 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.199 So Felix Rohiton was my father, and he was one 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.720 of the principal architects of the rescue and was sort 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:07.359 of dropped into the crisis in nineteen seventy five at 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.119 the invitation of the Governor q Carry to sort of 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.080 see if he could sort out what was happening in 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:14.040 New York City. 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:17.320 The financial crisis. So New York City, just talk us 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.320 through the financial crisis. Where How did New York City 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:25.000 get to this moment in nineteen seventy five where it 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:26.479 went bankrupt. 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.679 In nineteen seventy five, New York had been spending past 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:34.679 its ability to earn. The combination of things drove New 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:39.159 York City to a sort of sudden bankruptcy, a sudden 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:40.680 brush with bankruptcy. 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.880 One was white flight rich New Yorkers leaving New York, 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:45.639 which had been years happening. 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.400 One was the arrival of poor people to New York 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.000 who needed services, also years happening. 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:56.280 One was terrible accounting at city Hall, also years happening. 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:58.879 One was interest rates that had gone up. 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.960 Sharply because of the oil crisis, not so long happening, 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:06.480 And one day the governor of New York at the time, 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:11.880 a Republican, Nelson Rockefeller, had been very generous in spending 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.960 money on public programs at the state level and also 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:19.120 in approving city budgets sent to him by John Lindsay, 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.320 who was the mayor before our period, before our story. 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.920 And so when Lindsay wanted to spend money on housing, 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:29.040 when he wanted to spend money on social services, the 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:33.719 governor would approve it, and the legislature would design bond 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:38.359 issuances that would kind of accommodate whatever the needs were. 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:43.439 And these were more and more far fetched bonds that 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:47.080 required other bonds to pay them off, bonds that were 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:51.760 in anticipation of taxes that hadn't been levied yet. And literally, 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:56.440 one day it's like the Emperor's clothes. A young banker 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:01.760 went to one of the issuingomists for the City of 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:05.960 New York and said, you're issuing a bond in anticipation 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:11.280 of attacks. What tax are you anticipating collecting? And he 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:13.960 couldn't answer it. He wrote something down on a piece 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:18.560 of paper, and at that moment, this young lawyer working 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:22.040 for the banks realized that there was nothing holding up 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:23.040 these issuances. 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:25.399