Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Civic Cicher. I am your host,
Speaker 1: Rams's joh is H. I am q Ward.
Speaker 2: And you are tuned into.
Speaker 1: Indeed, you are got a great show lined up for
Speaker 1: you today. We're going to be existing very much in
Speaker 1: the abstract. We were asked a very important question from
Speaker 1: a person that we look up to, and we started
Speaker 1: to say the least a couple of people shout out
Speaker 1: to Jan and Ali and they're working with us on
Speaker 1: some really amazing things that come honest, that are in
Speaker 1: the pipeline, so stay tuned for that. We were really
Speaker 1: excited to announce that, but now is not the time. Anyway.
Speaker 1: The long and short of it is, we were asked
Speaker 1: a question which led to a pretty insightful conversation, and
Speaker 1: that question was what does it mean to be an ally?
Speaker 1: And I loved kind of where we went with it,
Speaker 1: where our brains went, and how we kind of articulated
Speaker 1: what that means. We're going to do our best to
Speaker 1: share that with you today because our assumption is that
Speaker 1: if you're listening to this show, or if you program
Speaker 1: this show, or you download the podcast, whatever it is,
Speaker 1: that to some degree you hope that the world can
Speaker 1: be a better place for black and brown people, and
Speaker 1: you are working to wonder or another to try to
Speaker 1: manifest that. And so we're going to spend a good
Speaker 1: amount of the show talking about ally Ship. We're also
Speaker 1: going to spend some time talking about Rosewood for our Way,
Speaker 1: Black History Fact, and a whole lot of other stuff,
Speaker 1: a lot to stick around for. And I'm excited because
Speaker 1: these are the sorts of topics where we get to
Speaker 1: really rather than read the news and kind of give
Speaker 1: you our thoughts and what we can do about it.
Speaker 1: This is more about you who you are as a person,
Speaker 1: and this is the episodes like these are the most meaningful. So,
Speaker 1: like we always do it, this time, let's go ahead
Speaker 1: and start off with some Ebony excellence. Provided that Ques
Speaker 1: on board, we shall. So for this week's Ebony Excellence,
Speaker 1: just know it is sponsored by Hip Hop Weekly Media,
Speaker 1: and we are going to shout out or we're reading
Speaker 1: from Black Enterprise Magazine. So we're going to shout out
Speaker 1: the founders of black owned eyewear line who made history
Speaker 1: signing a licensing deal with Nickelodeon. So I will read
Speaker 1: meet Nancy Harris and Tracy Green, the founders of Loontel,
Speaker 1: the first black women owned iwear company to have established
Speaker 1: a partnership with Paramount and Nickelodeon. Their licensing deal allows
Speaker 1: them to exclusively make fashion forward eyewear products for kids,
Speaker 1: using popular characters like SpongeBob, SquarePants, Baby Shark, and Rugrats.
Speaker 1: For their accomplishments in business, they were recently featured on
Speaker 1: The Kelly Clarkson Show. Nancy comments quote, we are thrilled
Speaker 1: to announce our three year partnership with Paramount. We are
Speaker 1: proud to be the first African American women owned eyewear
Speaker 1: company to have such a deal. Bontel is committed to
Speaker 1: creating eyewear that celebrates the African diaspora. Tracy comments. Bontel
Speaker 1: was founded to satisfy the demand for better fitting, vibrant,
Speaker 1: luxury eyewear design and handcrafted to be homage to the African,
Speaker 1: Caribbean and Latin diaspora. Now, I want to say something here.
Speaker 1: Ebny Excellence is a part of the show that we
Speaker 1: really love because a lot of times when we get
Speaker 1: to this part of the show, we have to talk
Speaker 1: about a lot of things that are happening in our
Speaker 1: communities and our struggles, and that sort of stuff, and
Speaker 1: it's important to remind you that we were not just
Speaker 1: born to struggle. We were born to laugh and enjoy life,
Speaker 1: and to be creative, and to fall in love, and
Speaker 1: to raise our children and to cry tears of joy
Speaker 1: and sadness and ebony. Excellence I think provides a very
Speaker 1: important dynamic to the show. So I appreciate you letting
Speaker 1: us get that off every single week. If somebody was
Speaker 1: to come to you and say I would like to
Speaker 1: be an ally, how does that look to you?
Speaker 2: I think the first thing that's important is it not
Speaker 2: being performative. There is a tendency to very comfortably agree
Speaker 2: with your friends, even when you don't wholeheartedly even understand
Speaker 2: what you're agreeing with. Why they're hurt, why they're offended,
Speaker 2: Why it feels like impression. I had a friend ask
Speaker 2: me in the time where we're dealing very publicly with
Speaker 2: the White Lives Matter trademark. One of us said something
Speaker 2: about it being triggering. And this is a white friend
Speaker 2: of mine, and she was very very confused as the idea, like,
Speaker 2: why is that triggering to you? Why does the term
Speaker 2: white Lives matter trigger you? This is a person that
Speaker 2: not just someone that I know cares about me, but
Speaker 2: that cares about my kids, that has invested in my
Speaker 2: well being and is somebody that I call family. But
Speaker 2: she was really like taken aback and confused at the
Speaker 2: idea that that term would be something triggering or hurtful
Speaker 2: to me. So taking the time to understand the why,
Speaker 2: I think sets you up to be in a better
Speaker 2: position where you're representing something that you also believe in.
Speaker 2: Not just parenting my beliefs because you like me, not
Speaker 2: just parenting my beliefs because you think that it's kind,
Speaker 2: but actually understanding the why behind it. So me having
Speaker 2: to explain to her what Black lives Matter means, where
Speaker 2: it came from, why that affirmation was even necessary to
Speaker 2: a group of people whose entire history has been oppression, marginalization, kidnap, murder,
Speaker 2: and having all of that reinforced full time by the
Speaker 2: infrastructure of the society that they live in. So not
Speaker 2: just personal people's personal hatred, not just one to one
Speaker 2: person to person racism, but the entire infrastructure of the company,
Speaker 2: from government to policing to policy to education, reinforcing all
Speaker 2: of these things that an entire group of people have
Speaker 2: had to go through for their entire existence on this continent. Right,
Speaker 2: having a system continue to show you that your life,
Speaker 2: your posterity, your happiness, your existence is worthless. Right, Black
Speaker 2: Lives Matter is simply reaffirming that we deserve to exist.
Speaker 2: That's not saying that we should thrive and be prosperous
Speaker 2: and pursue happiness. No, we even take it that far.
Speaker 2: Is it okay for us to just exist here? Because
Speaker 2: we're seeing ourselves murdered on video and even stin even
Speaker 2: in that In that instance, your immediate reaction is to
Speaker 2: convince people why we deserved it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let me jump in here. I think I
Speaker 1: was once to ask this question. Uh. It was an
Speaker 1: early episode of Civic Cipbert believe or not. One of
Speaker 1: my neighbors came up because I think we had a
Speaker 1: guest cancel, and he and I were having a good conversation.
Speaker 1: I was like, you know what, you want to come
Speaker 1: to my show? And he came up. I think that
Speaker 1: you were This was I don't even know, but this
Speaker 1: was early in again, and he asked me the same question, well,
Speaker 1: you know, what can we do to support black people?
Speaker 1: And I think what he was asking is how can
Speaker 1: we be allies. How what does that look like? How
Speaker 1: what does that look like? And so I recognized that
Speaker 1: it's important to find what it is and then explain
Speaker 1: how it looks. So, in short, if I was going
Speaker 1: to use my own language appealing to somebody, one individual,
Speaker 1: not a group, but one person, and I was to say, hey, listen,
Speaker 1: I need some allyship, and they were to ask what
Speaker 1: does that mean, I would start by saying, basically, just
Speaker 1: just hold me down. Trust me when I say that
Speaker 1: this is what it is. Value my perspective. Listen to me.
Speaker 1: Step out of your own way and challenge the boundaries
Speaker 1: of what you think empathy is, because everybody in their
Speaker 1: own mind thinks that they can see it from the
Speaker 1: other side. So challenge those boundaries. In fact, the things
Speaker 1: that you feel are nonsense. Question why you might feel
Speaker 1: that way, and ask questions toward that end to gain
Speaker 1: more understanding, right, and then you'll be moving with the
Speaker 1: why instead of just with the performative part that you
Speaker 1: mentioned about just going through the motions. There's a why.
Speaker 1: There's some substance there underneath your allyship. But that's why
Speaker 1: that conversation was so important. You and I spoke about
Speaker 1: this on our show before the words white lives matter,
Speaker 1: just like black lives matter, should not be controversial or
Speaker 1: offensive in any way, because, of course white lives matter.
Speaker 2: But it's the why that term was even born that
Speaker 2: I had to explain to her. So that's why I
Speaker 2: had to paint such a vivid picture as to why
Speaker 2: black lives matter even existed, so that when I came
Speaker 2: back and said, yeah, white lives matter came just to
Speaker 2: oppose what I just told you, just to say, no,
Speaker 2: your lives don't matter. If they're not you don't they
Speaker 2: don't have worth, you don't just to exist. And then
Speaker 2: my white friend understood the why and felt as offended
Speaker 2: as I did. And that was a much longer form
Speaker 2: conversation than that. But after you get to the why again,
Speaker 2: you said it, I'm saying it again. It's not performative
Speaker 2: anymore understanding from the perspective of the people who are hurt,
Speaker 2: of the people who are being marginalized, their why, because
Speaker 2: in this instance it's not yours.
Speaker 1: Let me add something else to I think that allyship requires.
Speaker 1: If you're committed to growing and challenging your beliefs, you
Speaker 1: have to also be committed to a long campaign of learning,
Speaker 1: because what will happen is you will say, oh, I
Speaker 1: want to support you. I think that this is a
Speaker 1: good thing you're doing. I want to be I want
Speaker 1: to be activated in a way, in a meaningful way
Speaker 1: where I can support you toward whatever end you're pursuing.
Speaker 1: And then when you're away from me and you get
Speaker 1: around your friends again, they might get into your be like,
Speaker 1: you know, those guys are only doing that because of this,
Speaker 1: and you know they're always saying that or did you
Speaker 1: see this poll? And blah blah blah, And then now
Speaker 1: you're like lost in the sauce again and you kind
Speaker 1: of lose a little bit of steam. So you have
Speaker 1: to be committed to a long campaign and bear in
Speaker 1: mind that there are going to be some challenges along
Speaker 1: the way. There's a lot of we did a whole episode,
Speaker 1: you remember that episode we did on how data gets
Speaker 1: manipulated and used against us, And there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people where they come across that, people who would be
Speaker 1: allies or have been allies, or whatever the case is,
Speaker 1: and they come across these things which are either half
Speaker 1: truths or distortions or you know, distortions of the truths
Speaker 1: or whatever. And because it's presented as complete and factual.
Speaker 1: They and they receive it that way, and then they're like,
Speaker 1: oh what am I doing? Man? Because you know, that's
Speaker 1: that's that's a valid point. Even the Dilbert comic guy
Speaker 1: him with that straw pole thing or the ras Musen
Speaker 1: pole thing, we just talked about him saying, oh, black
Speaker 1: people feel like, uh, what do you say it's okay
Speaker 1: to be white? Yeah, that's la people exactly, And that's
Speaker 1: not nearly the complete story. You know that there's there's
Speaker 1: a weight to that statement that is particularly offensive and oppressive.
Speaker 1: And our belief is that the response in that right
Speaker 1: leaning rass Musen poll, which you know, uh, wasn't even
Speaker 1: fully explained because there's at least three parts of every pole.
Speaker 1: They only showed two, but even still it didn't color
Speaker 1: in those lines. And it's no different from saying is
Speaker 1: it okay to be white? And people's you know, having
Speaker 1: an issue with that statement because it in and of
Speaker 1: itself is a racist statement. I told you about the
Speaker 1: group I'm Reddit I'm a part of, and the group
Speaker 1: is titled It's Okay to Be White, and the group
Speaker 1: is racist people, and we use this for fodder for
Speaker 1: the show, right, it's similar to challenging what we talked
Speaker 1: about as people. It is black power as a statement problematic.
Speaker 1: Most folks Black folks would be like, no, not problematic
Speaker 1: at all. I understand it. It means that, you know,
Speaker 1: our community is galvanized around a cause of mission whatever.
Speaker 1: And that's the same group of folks. Is white power problematic?
Speaker 1: Everybody be like yeah, totally because that phrase, even though
Speaker 1: it's just one word change, that phrase is rooted in
Speaker 1: the oppression of black people and the meaning, the meaning
Speaker 1: behind it is very different. So again, this is it
Speaker 1: okay to be white, sure, but the meaning behind that
Speaker 1: phrase is not just the language. It's there's a deeper,
Speaker 1: more sinister component that is not reflected in Erasmussen poll.
Speaker 1: And the dober guy is completely shot off his track.
Speaker 1: And then the people that feel like, well, look look
Speaker 1: at the poll numbers. I get why he's saying that.
Speaker 2: That data's presented that way for those people intentionally to
Speaker 2: kind of light a match to their to their their
Speaker 2: fuel if you will. But you spoke about committing to
Speaker 2: like a long term journey of learning, challenging your own
Speaker 2: implicit biases, You're going to hear stuff that's wrong. That
Speaker 2: sounds like how you feel, and it'll make you want
Speaker 2: to defend it. Right, So I told you, anytime I
Speaker 2: speak about it, speak out about our former president, people
Speaker 2: that I know reach out to me to defend him.
Speaker 2: And I realized after the third or fourth person, Oh,
Speaker 2: they're reaching out to defend themselves. I presented something that
Speaker 2: they kind of agree with, or some part of what
Speaker 2: he's saying or what he feels that they also feel.
Speaker 2: I didn't say anything about his ideology. I just said
Speaker 2: something about him essentially being a bad person. And by
Speaker 2: this person reaching out to tell me all these great
Speaker 2: things he's done, it's like, oh, they feel like I'm
Speaker 2: attacking them. It's in those moments of discomfort where you
Speaker 2: really have to do some work. Because of implicit biases
Speaker 2: and because of unlived experience, there are going to be
Speaker 2: some things like, my friend, you are not going to
Speaker 2: understand why people feel that way. You and I learned
Speaker 2: that we had so much to do and so much
Speaker 2: room to grow and learn with regards to being allies
Speaker 2: to women. This is Reverend Estella's son six sisters. You know, girl, dad,
Speaker 2: Oh my god, did we have a lot to learn.
Speaker 2: So we could have saw these things, these points of
Speaker 2: views that we oh man, I might have kind of
Speaker 2: thought like that and held onto that and stood opposed
Speaker 2: to women where we had to just say flat out no,
Speaker 2: you're wrong too.
Speaker 1: So I think you're nailing it right here. So I'm
Speaker 1: glad you brought up the I'm assuming you're alluding to
Speaker 1: the me too movement. Watch this. I mean, yes, that's it,
Speaker 1: and that's what started the conversation.
Speaker 2: You're really talking about being allies to women in general.
Speaker 2: We feel very short and doing our part.
Speaker 1: Okay, So what does allyship mean? Ramses? Well, allyship means,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, I'm committed to the long term journey
Speaker 1: with this group of people. That I'm not a part
Speaker 1: of this group. I'm not a woman. But if they
Speaker 1: say that's what they want, I follow their leadership. I
Speaker 1: support in ways that they deem meaningful. Where I can
Speaker 1: and where I can't, I challenge myself to try to
Speaker 1: show up, make a sign, you know whatever. You know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I'm always pushing myself to stand as
Speaker 1: a brother to my sisters. That's a word that I
Speaker 1: use that I mean, you know that, and that word
Speaker 1: is a very special word to me because my dad
Speaker 1: had twenty four other kids. So that's not something that
Speaker 1: I take lightly. That's not something that I don't know
Speaker 1: nothing about. I am a brother, the big brothers, a
Speaker 1: little brothers, big sisters and little sisters. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. And they all caught his phone and it'll
Speaker 1: be cool. So when I'm saying that, is like, Okay,
Speaker 1: what is allyship? What are you trying to do? How
Speaker 1: can I be the best brother to you possible? Will
Speaker 1: you please instruct me? And then doing that and being
Speaker 1: committed to the long journey and maybe even being committed
Speaker 1: to the outcomes that whatever group we're talking about in
Speaker 1: this case, women want. And where I can make small
Speaker 1: changes I do. Where I can make big changes, I do,
Speaker 1: And if I can't, I bear in mind, then maybe
Speaker 1: this isn't my fight. I need to let my sisters
Speaker 1: fight this one. I need to sit back. I don't
Speaker 1: seek recognition, you know. And it's not a matter of
Speaker 1: waiting to be called. It's an active So be at
Speaker 1: the ready, but be at the ready to be called
Speaker 1: to greater tasks. Be ready to be called to greater
Speaker 1: tasks as well. So again I'm not entirely sure if
Speaker 1: that fits neatly in a little like a definition thing.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, if I have to expound, because you've
Speaker 2: said a lot of what it means to me as well,
Speaker 2: I'll just add to that. A lot of times we
Speaker 2: let our lack of understanding cause us to take a
Speaker 2: backseat and not participate at all.
Speaker 1: That's not my fight. I don't really understand that, that's
Speaker 1: not it.
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna just cross my hands over here and
Speaker 2: watch and observing is just as bad, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean? Like, just observing passively and not actively working
Speaker 2: to help resolve or help support that group that you're
Speaker 2: not a part of, is just as bad. Don't be
Speaker 2: a passivist be an ally, even while you're being educated,
Speaker 2: even while you're trying to learn, be an ally, you
Speaker 2: cannot let your ignorance paralyze you in a way that
Speaker 2: you don't participate.
Speaker 1: Do you want to hear something really cool? I just
Speaker 1: made a connection. I want to see if it works.
Speaker 1: All right, So we talk about white privilege, right, people
Speaker 1: that enjoy white privilege are oftentimes in the best possible
Speaker 1: position to be allies. Right. Sure, some people don't acknowledge it,
Speaker 1: some people aren't aware of it. Whatever. But the fact
Speaker 1: remains is that in the vast majority of circumstances, those
Speaker 1: who enjoy white privilege are in the best possible positions
Speaker 1: to have that title of ally right now, the parallel here,
Speaker 1: and I know we can't make a lot of parallels
Speaker 1: to other movements because this is kind of ours, but
Speaker 1: one that's in recent memory that we all kind of
Speaker 1: know about is again the me Too movement. I learned
Speaker 1: something that men have a certain privilege with respect to women.
Speaker 1: One in particular, there's many, of course, but one in particular,
Speaker 1: there are plenty, One in particular is testosterone. So what
Speaker 1: I want to do is make a comparison testosterone white privilege.
Speaker 1: You have an advantage in the shared spaces. Right, It's
Speaker 1: less likely that I'm going to be challenged physically because
Speaker 1: I'm a man, and as we know, men have a
Speaker 1: lot in the way of strength. A man can kill
Speaker 1: you very easily if he was committed kind of to
Speaker 1: the cause, right because of testosterone. Those humans with less
Speaker 1: testosterone as a rule, are less strong. Testosterone is the
Speaker 1: thing that kind of falls.
Speaker 2: Out, less aggressive, n likely to cause you physical on
Speaker 2: and on.
Speaker 1: Okay, So because I have been endowed with testosterone. If
Speaker 1: I am somewhere and I witness another individual with testosterone
Speaker 1: taking advantage of particularly physically, another person does not have testosterone,
Speaker 1: and that fight is not fair. And in my mind,
Speaker 1: in this scenario this is a man abusing a woman,
Speaker 1: I cannot, as you said, throw my hands up and
Speaker 1: say that's not my fight. It could be physical, or
Speaker 1: it could be you know, some other invisible system, be
Speaker 1: it employment, be it representation, be it you know, anything
Speaker 1: like that. Right, But because I'm in the best possible
Speaker 1: position to challenge that testosterone laden individual, it is my
Speaker 1: responsibility to do so. Otherwise I could not call myself
Speaker 1: an ally and for me Ramses in particular, I could
Speaker 1: not call myself her brother. So that's a great parallel.
Speaker 1: I think now anybody that was trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what messaging they could take away from, or what the
Speaker 1: thrust of this campaign is or should be, what are
Speaker 1: the like the main takeaways. If I had to fire
Speaker 1: off some ideas, I would want people to walk away
Speaker 1: from really anything that we do, feeling capable, because it's
Speaker 1: really easy to psych yourself out right feeling committed. I
Speaker 1: would want people to feel like change is possible. I
Speaker 1: would want people to feel like it's okay to make
Speaker 1: a mistake, because remember, you're dealing oftentimes as an ally,
Speaker 1: you're dealing with a group of people who have been hurt.
Speaker 1: And sometimes even when you're helping individuals who've been hurt,
Speaker 1: they you got to warm up to them a little bit.
Speaker 1: You got to recognize that a lot of times their
Speaker 1: pain comes from places that is not you, and it
Speaker 1: might be directed in your direction. It's a thing that happens.
Speaker 1: But again, you're committed to the long term, not to
Speaker 1: the individual, but to the.
Speaker 2: Cause, and that pain might also come from a place
Speaker 2: or more specifically, a person that you resemble, and initially
Speaker 2: you don't know the difference, right, I can it to
Speaker 2: someone that's drowning, a person that's trying to pull them down,
Speaker 2: and a person that's trying to save them feels the same.
Speaker 2: They're in panic, they're afraid, a trauma based response. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they don't yet know the difference. Sometimes they will fight
Speaker 2: you for trying to save them too. You have to
Speaker 2: be committed to that. Ask lifeguards, I did that job before.
Speaker 2: I have to commit to saving this person who might
Speaker 2: be actively trying to harm me because they don't know
Speaker 2: any better,