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Speaker 1: Hey or hey? Have you seen a new TV show

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Speaker 1: about the multiverse?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 5: Which one? Feel like there are multiple ones out there?

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Speaker 1: I know there are so many. Makes me wonder if

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Speaker 1: there are multiverse aliens out there, would they want to

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Speaker 1: watch shows about like a single universe? A monoverse.

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Speaker 5: What Wait, So, if there is a multiverse and aliens,

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Speaker 5: what you're wondering about is whether they watch a show,

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Speaker 5: a particular show. Yeah, that's the first question you would

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Speaker 5: ask them.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's the first question, but it's

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Speaker 1: on the list.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure, what's on. But that's an interesting concept,

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Speaker 5: like to them, A show about a single universe would

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Speaker 5: be weird and strange to them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And you know the stories that people tell,

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Speaker 1: the stories people are interesting. That tells you a lot

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Speaker 1: about how their mind works. So I think that would

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Speaker 1: be super fun.

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Speaker 5: I am Jorge mcgartoonez, an author of Oliver's Great Big Universe.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, and I'll watch almost any science fiction

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Speaker 1: show that's out there, honestly.

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Speaker 5: Oh, would you like it and not like it at

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Speaker 5: the same time? Or do you like them all? Or

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Speaker 5: do you you just want to see them all?

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Speaker 1: I watch almost all of them. I don't like all

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Speaker 1: of them. I usually finish them anyway, even if I

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Speaker 1: sort of hate watch them at the end.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Oh, I can't do that. If I don't like something,

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Speaker 5: forget it. I drop it, books, TV shows, movies, I'll

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Speaker 5: stop watching a movie.

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Speaker 4: In the middle.

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Speaker 1: I always just have this hope that they're going to

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Speaker 1: pull it off, you know that somehow, even though it

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Speaker 1: seems like nonsense, there's an explanation waiting at the end.

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Speaker 1: I'm almost always disappointed, but I still have that hope,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 5: I think that's why they invented Wikipedia.

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Speaker 1: Daniel, Are you saying you stop watching something and just

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Speaker 1: read the plot summary and Wikipedia?

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Speaker 6: No?

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Speaker 5: I do know, I do. It's such a time saver,

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Speaker 5: trust me, and then if what happens sounds interesting, then

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Speaker 5: I'll go see how they did.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Amazing. Maybe instead of living your life, you should

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Speaker 1: just read about yourself on Wikipedia. I mean it saves time. Right.

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Speaker 5: Well, who do you think is writing my Wikipedia?

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Speaker 1: Is that you wi?

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Speaker 5: I mean, what better source about my life than me?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Actually, I think there probably are better sources. People tend

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Speaker 1: to not be unbiased recounters of their own life story.

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Speaker 5: But anyways, Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 5: the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: A show in which we explain how the universe works

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Speaker 1: to you. We want to answer your questions and really

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Speaker 1: unwind the explanations so that they click in your mind

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Speaker 1: even better than if you just read the article on Wikipedia.

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Speaker 1: We do the Wikipedia translation for you. So many people

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Speaker 1: to me and say, hey, I read about this on

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Speaker 1: Wikipedia and it still doesn't make sense. Can you explain

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Speaker 1: that to me. That's what this show is about, explaining

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Speaker 1: everything that's out there in the universe in a way

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Speaker 1: that actually makes sense to you.

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Speaker 5: That's right, because it is a pretty interesting universe full

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Speaker 5: of cliffhangers, interesting plot twists, and amazing characters out there.

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Speaker 5: Hopefully without a series finale yet.

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Speaker 1: I think it's going to end in a cliffhanger. What

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Speaker 1: do you think?

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Speaker 5: But what's on the other side of the cliff, Daniel?

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Speaker 1: I just hope we get another season, that's all, you know.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, how do you know we're not in the

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Speaker 5: second season.

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Speaker 1: We could be in like Season Infinity, right, it's just

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Speaker 1: a series of banks and everyone is a new season.

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Speaker 5: We could be like the soap opera of the meta metaverse,

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Speaker 5: meta meta universe. You know, it just goes on forever. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 5: that's the universe turns, and.

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Speaker 1: We'd like exploring the physics of the real universe. But

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Speaker 1: we also like thinking about other hypothetical, even fictional universes,

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Speaker 1: because this is a great way to stretch our brains

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Speaker 1: to imagine the way that our universe might be. There's

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Speaker 1: a great history of science fiction authors being super creative

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Speaker 1: about the way physics might work in some universe in

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Speaker 1: their mind, and sometimes even inspiring real physics in new directions.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Because also, isn't it sort of the job of

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Speaker 5: physicists to think about the possible futures or possible ways

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Speaker 5: in which the universe might work, and then go out

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Speaker 5: there and test them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, that is the job of theoretical physics, not

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Speaker 1: just describe what we've seen in the universe, but think

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Speaker 1: about what else might be out there, come up with

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Speaker 1: new experiments we could do to discover the way the

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Speaker 1: universe is. And in order to do that you have

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Speaker 1: to be creative. You have to say, maybe the universe

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Speaker 1: works this way, maybe it works that way. How would

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Speaker 1: we know? What would it mean? You know, all the

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Speaker 1: big discoveries in the history of physics, Einstein's revolution with

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Speaker 1: relativity comes from thinking about the way the universe might work,

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Speaker 1: and science fiction authors do the same thing in another direction.

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Speaker 1: They maybe even take.

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Speaker 5: It for Now does that mean that a physicists can

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Speaker 5: just lay back and read what science fiction author is?

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Speaker 1: Right, dude, you figured out our secret. That's embarrassing.

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Speaker 5: I know.

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Speaker 1: That's why I watch so much science fiction. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I need a new idea for research. Let's turn on

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Speaker 1: the TV.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. Do you ever like reference that in

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Speaker 5: your scientific papers? You should.

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Speaker 1: Hasn't actually happened yet, but you know, I'm waiting for

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Speaker 1: the day. I'm keep investing.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I see, you're waiting for the day for someone

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Speaker 5: to make a TV show about a gripping drama that

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Speaker 5: takes place at the Large Hadron Collider about a particle

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Speaker 5: physicist who has a podcast and then turns out to

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Speaker 5: be an international spy.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, exactly. You know, the show we're talking

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Speaker 1: about today actually is about a physicist who turns out

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Speaker 1: to discover something exciting about the universe.

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Speaker 4: Hmm.

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Speaker 5: Interesting. Well, let's dig into that because to me, on

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Speaker 5: the program, we'll be tackling the sci fi universe of

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Speaker 5: dark matter. And now, wait, Daniel, I thought we were

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Speaker 5: talking about the multiverse, not dark matter.

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Speaker 1: I know. Yes, the title of this show is maybe

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Speaker 1: a touch bit misleading.

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Speaker 5: I agree, yeah, misleading or inaccrid or maybe in season

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Speaker 5: Infinity will turn out that dark Matter is what power

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Speaker 5: is the multiverse.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to give away any spoilers, So

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Speaker 1: people got to read the book or check out the

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Speaker 1: TV show. This TV show is inspired by a book

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Speaker 1: of the same name by Blake Crouch. It was that

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Speaker 1: book that actually kicked off our whole series of science

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Speaker 1: fiction episodes.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Remember we recorded an episode where we talked about

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Speaker 5: the book. This was a long time ago, right five

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Speaker 5: years ago, four years ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we actually chatted with Blake about a different book

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Speaker 1: of his Recursion about time travel. But reading that book

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Speaker 1: and thinking about the physics and wondering how authors used

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Speaker 1: physics as they developed their shows and how they developed

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Speaker 1: the science fiction universe is what inspired our whole series

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Speaker 1: of episodes of interviews with authors, which has been super fun.

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Speaker 1: So thanks Blake for writing that book.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you Blake. And so he wrote the book

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Speaker 5: Dark Matter, on which the TV show is based on,

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Speaker 5: which you can see right now in Apple TV.

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Speaker 1: That's right, by the time this episode airs, the finale

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Speaker 1: will have been out already. And so it's a fun

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Speaker 1: science fiction show on Apple TV.

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Speaker 5: Oh does that mean we're going to do spoilers or

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Speaker 5: not spoilers.

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Speaker 1: We are not going to do spoilers because I want

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Speaker 1: people to hear this episode.

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Speaker 5: And then watch the show and or read the Wikipedia page.

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Speaker 1: No, do not do that.

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Speaker 5: It might see any time. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Let's see, Yeah, let's see.

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Speaker 5: But anyway, it's a show out there right now, and

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Speaker 5: it's a limited series, right how many episodes will there be?

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Speaker 1: There's nine episodes in the first series and there hasn't

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Speaker 1: yet been news about whether they'll extended for a second series.

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Speaker 1: The story in the first series basically captures what happens

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Speaker 1: in the book.

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Speaker 5: Okay, does it vary from the book or did they

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Speaker 5: change anything or leave it as this?

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Speaker 1: There's a few subtle modifications, but basically it follows the

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Speaker 1: story as laid out in the book.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, what's the general story of the book or

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Speaker 5: movie for book?

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Speaker 1: So it's a multiverse inspired story, and it's a story

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Speaker 1: about a physicist and in one of the universes he

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Speaker 1: invents a box that connects the multiverses. So it's essentially

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Speaker 1: about being able to travel from one universe to another

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Speaker 1: universe to imagine like alternative lives you might have lived,

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Speaker 1: or to maybe even change the universe you live in

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Speaker 1: because you regret some of your choices.

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Speaker 5: Whoa wait, wait, wait, So first of all, it's a box.

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Speaker 5: Mm hmm, not a douhiki or a machine. It's a box.

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Speaker 5: How big is this box? Like phone booth size box

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Speaker 5: or briefcase size box.

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Speaker 1: No, it's big enough for a few people to stand in.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like the size of a small garage.

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Speaker 1: I guess looks like it's I don't know, three meters

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Speaker 1: across or something. But it's a box because it's inspired

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Speaker 1: by Schrodinger's cat you know, the idea of putting a

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Speaker 1: cat in a box and then not knowing whether it's

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Speaker 1: live or dead because there's a quantum triggered poison in

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Speaker 1: there with the cat. So I think they used a

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Speaker 1: box because it's evoked by Schrodinger's cat experiment.

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Speaker 5: I see. So does that mean that the multiverse in

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Speaker 5: the show is the quantum multiverse version, because I know

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Speaker 5: we've talked about there being multiple versions of multiverses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. This is the quantum multiverse. The idea that

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Speaker 1: if there are random things happening in the universe, like

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Speaker 1: an electron could go left or could go right, and

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics tells us that there's just a random probability

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Speaker 1: for either one. Then you might ask how does the

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Speaker 1: universe choose? And in the Copenhagen interpretation, the universe just

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Speaker 1: picks one somehow, you know, rolls a die somewhere behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes, and an electron goes left or goes right.

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Speaker 1: That's the wave function collapse. But there's another version of

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, the many world's theory or Everrettian, that says

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Speaker 1: it doesn't collapse. It does both. The universe splits into two.

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Speaker 1: So the electron goes left in one universe and right

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Speaker 1: in another universe, and so those are two elements of

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Speaker 1: the multiverse.

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Speaker 5: So now after the electron splits, there are two universes

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Speaker 5: that exist, one in which the electron win left and

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Speaker 5: one in which the electrone went right, whereas before there

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Speaker 5: was only one universe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to be careful what you mean

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Speaker 1: by universe here. We use the word universe here to

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Speaker 1: evoke the universe that we experience, you know, our stars

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Speaker 1: and galaxies and our space and our bodies and all

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And then we imagine many of those,

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Speaker 1: we put those together into a multiverse. Some people who

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Speaker 1: support this theory of quantum mechanics think that that's a

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Speaker 1: little bit misleading. You're not really creating new universes. You

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Speaker 1: just have one big universe that's now split into independent

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Speaker 1: branches that can no longer talk to each other. So

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Speaker 1: it's a bit of a quibble about the naming. But

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Speaker 1: I think that leads people to imagine that like all

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Speaker 1: this new stars are being made somehow, all this mass

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Speaker 1: is being created, when it's really more like it's splitting

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Speaker 1: into both possibilities.

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Speaker 5: Now, in the show, the scientists physicists, I imagine built

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Speaker 5: a box and then what happens to the box? If

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Speaker 5: you get in it, you can go to another multiverse,

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Speaker 5: or you can experience it or what what does it

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Speaker 5: mean that it connects the multiverses?

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Speaker 1: Yes, the idea is that inside the box, the universe

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Speaker 1: has not made a choice about what's happening. There's nobody

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Speaker 1: observing it, there's nobody looking at it. So it's still

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Speaker 1: in this sort of quantum superposition where it can have

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Speaker 1: both possibilities. And so in that sense, it's like there

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Speaker 1: are multiple possibilities within the box. The same way that

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Speaker 1: when you put a cat in the box and you

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Speaker 1: don't look inside yet, the cat could still be alive

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Speaker 1: or still be dead, And quantum mechanics says, both possibilities

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Speaker 1: exist simultaneously, so now to experience both simultaneously. In the show,

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Speaker 1: they develop some sort of chemical, some sort of like

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Speaker 1: shot that you take that allows your brain to exist

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Speaker 1: in a superposition so that you can go inside the

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Speaker 1: box without collapsing the possibilities. So now you are inside

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Speaker 1: the box, and you are still in this quantum superposition,

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Speaker 1: so you're sort of like experiencing multiple universes simultaneously.

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Speaker 5: It's like you're the cat Insurodinger's cat, and then the

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Speaker 5: cat took a pill or something or some medicine. It

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Speaker 5: can now experience being both dead and alive. But I

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Speaker 5: guess the dead kat would not be experienced anything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And in the show they describe it says,

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Speaker 1: turning off the observer effect what I described earlier. You know,

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Speaker 1: when the electron goes left or goes right, when it's

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Speaker 1: making that choice, that's what we call the observer effect.

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Speaker 1: When you ask the universe, okay, which one is it?

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Speaker 1: I want to observe the electron and in the Copenhagen

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Speaker 1: interpretation they say when it's observed, that's when the universe

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Speaker 1: makes a choice. And so in this story they sort

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Speaker 1: of like turn off the observer effect by taking this

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Speaker 1: special drug that allows your brain to be in a superposition,

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Speaker 1: and then you can basically choose which universe you want

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Speaker 1: to go into. You reopen the door, you walk out

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Speaker 1: in a new universe. In that universe, you made a

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Speaker 1: different choice in your earlier life, or you know, society

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Speaker 1: has gone a different way or something it is different

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Speaker 1: about the universe.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I hear. There are all kinds of drugs that

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Speaker 5: will let you experience all kinds of universes. You don't

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Speaker 5: need a box. But wait, so taking this bill of

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Speaker 5: going into the box that gives you access to all

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Speaker 5: of the multiverses ever created, or just the ones that happen.

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Speaker 5: So you go into the box based on the choices

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Speaker 5: you make inside the box, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 5: Like it would make sense if you can access the

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Speaker 5: ones that you're super proposed in, but maybe not the

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Speaker 5: ones that were created a long time ago or will

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Speaker 5: be created in the future.

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Speaker 1: No, it's a very good point, and there is a

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Speaker 1: bit of a scientific quibble there. Right, What might make

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Speaker 1: sense is you create this box. Now you haven't looked

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Speaker 1: at what's inside the box. Several things could be happening

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Speaker 1: inside the box. If you now go inside the box,

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Speaker 1: you can then choose any of those possible outcomes from

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Speaker 1: when you created the box. Right, That's not what happens

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Speaker 1: in the show. In the show, you can visit any

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Speaker 1: alternative universe in which you were born. So not like

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Speaker 1: the full breadth of all possible universes, including ones where

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Speaker 1: you never existed or the Earth never formed, just universes

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Speaker 1: in which you were born. But I agree with you

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Speaker 1: that that doesn't really make sense because how could the

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Speaker 1: box have those universes connected to it? Right? It exists

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Speaker 1: in our universe?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, okay, but.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot less. If you create a box and

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Speaker 1: then you can go inside the box and then be

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Speaker 1: in any universe in which you made this box five

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Speaker 1: minutes ago, that doesn't really give you many new options.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't allow for exciting stories like I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go inside the box and then instead of being a

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Speaker 1: physicist who created this box, I'm gonna go back and

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Speaker 1: find the woman I should have married. Instead of building

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Speaker 1: this box.

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Speaker 5: I guess either version would be kind of interesting. Like

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Speaker 5: I could go into this box, right, I can watch

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Speaker 5: a TV show and also at the same time, I

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Speaker 5: can maybe you know, write a novel, and then at

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Speaker 5: the end I'll have done both. Is that how it works?

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Speaker 1: Well, eventually you have to come out, right, not everybody

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Speaker 1: in the universe has taken this drug. And so then

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Speaker 1: when you come out, you're either going to be Jorge

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Speaker 1: who wrote a novel or Orge who watched a TV show.

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Speaker 5: And I can choose which one.

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Speaker 1: You can choose which one, Yes, but you can't be both.

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Speaker 1: You can't have both watched the TV show and written

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Speaker 1: a novel, which I think is what you're going for.

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Speaker 5: But if I wrote the novel, do I remember having

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Speaker 5: written the novel or remember having watched the novel the

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Speaker 5: TV show?

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Speaker 1: Because when you come out, then the universe collapses and

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Speaker 1: makes your choice, right.

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Speaker 5: Okay, right, but I'll have known, like if I picked

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Speaker 5: a novel, then I know that the novel I wrote

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Speaker 5: is better than the TV show I watched.

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Speaker 1: When you come out, you won't You'll only have been

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Speaker 1: Horriy wrote the novel or Horaey who watched the TV show.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, or horri We just read the Wikipedia article on matter.

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Speaker 5: But let's go back to the show. Sorry, So then

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Speaker 5: the physicists had then the option to go anywhere at

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Speaker 5: any point in his life in which he made a

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Speaker 5: decision and go that that way or not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 5: But then if he goes the other way, then he'll

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Speaker 5: have been that person who made the other choice. Does

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Speaker 5: he stay the person he was before he went into

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Speaker 5: the box?

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Speaker 1: He stays the person he was before he went into

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Speaker 1: the box, and now he's experiencing this new universe. So

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Speaker 1: one of the main storylines in the show is that

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Speaker 1: this physicist, the one we're following, actually didn't build the box.

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Speaker 1: He decided not to go into physics and instead follow

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Speaker 1: his wife's career and become a teacher. But then another

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Speaker 1: version of him that did build the box sides, you know,

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Speaker 1: life being a physicist isn't as exciting and I should

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Speaker 1: have chosen love and comes and kidnaps the original version

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Speaker 1: of him and takes his place.

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Speaker 5: Wait what so Wait, the main protagonist is not a physicist.

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Speaker 1: He's a physicist by training. He got a PhD, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: But now he's teaching, he's not doing research. He decided

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Speaker 1: not to devote himself to buildings.

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Speaker 5: He's not a practicing physicist, but then the physicist version

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Speaker 5: of him in the multiverse turns out to be kind

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Speaker 5: of evil.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You know, he decided following his career with

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Speaker 1: maybe the wrong path, even though it allowed him to create

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Speaker 1: this box. Now it lets him come back and live

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Speaker 1: both versions, right, he wants to be whoorgete wrote the

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Speaker 1: novel and watch the TV show. He got to have

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Speaker 1: a career, build a box, and now he wants to

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Speaker 1: go back and experience love.

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Speaker 5: So basically the moral of the stories. If you become

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Speaker 5: a physicist and you become a super villain, yeah, takeaway here.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, Bruce Banner has seven PhDs,

404
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Speaker 1: so maybe the guy just needs more PhDs so he becomes,

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Speaker 1: you know, on the good side.

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Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, but I think for for Bruce Banner, he

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Speaker 5: has PhDs in non physics fields. What that balances?

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Speaker 1: He got seven PhDs and none of them are in physics.

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Speaker 5: Really some of them, I think most of them are not.

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Speaker 5: I don't know, I mean, looked at this transcript.

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Speaker 1: I need to check out Bruce Banner CV.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, there you go. I'm sure he posts it

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Speaker 5: on Wikipedia. Okay, so then he gets kipnaped by his

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Speaker 5: alternate version, and then what happens when you kidnapped and

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Speaker 5: then placed in the other universe and now he's trapped

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Speaker 5: or what?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, basically, and he has to figure out what happened

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Speaker 1: and try to get back to his original universe, and

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Speaker 1: then the story gets pretty wild. So it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: fun story. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Oh, do you give it a thumbs up or a

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Speaker 5: thumbs down or both thumbs up and thumbs us down.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely a lot of fun to watch. I recommend

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Speaker 1: it if you're into science fiction. I think the science

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Speaker 1: of it is pretty solid, but there are some quibbles,

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Speaker 1: but I think they're sort of necessary fudge factors to

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Speaker 1: make the story work, Otherwise it just wouldn't be possible.

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Speaker 1: But it's definitely fun to watch, and it tries really

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Speaker 1: hard to follow rules, you know, to set up a

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Speaker 1: universe and to follow the consequences of that. I think

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Speaker 1: it does a good job of imagining where the story

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Speaker 1: might go that you wouldn't expect.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I know following rules is very important to you.

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Speaker 1: Well, we think the universe follows rules, and we're trying

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Speaker 1: to figure it out, and so it's most fun to

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Speaker 1: follow rules in these stories, the science of it. I

437
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Speaker 1: do have a couple of quibbles. I mean, number one

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Speaker 1: is the issue you already brought up, like, if you

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Speaker 1: create this box, how is it possible that has access

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Speaker 1: to choices you made before you made the box? That

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to work with me.

442
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 5: My question is how do you pick which universe you

443
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 5: want to go into? Like is there a computer? Or

444
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,119
Speaker 5: you say I want to go to the universe in

445
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,159
Speaker 5: which I didn't become a physicist.

446
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, they actually dig into that in great detail in

447
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: the show. I don't want to spoil how it works,

448
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 1: but they definitely grapple with that question. That's not something

449
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:44,200
Speaker 1: they'd gloss over.

450
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 5: Oh interesting, Like is there a user interface or do

451
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,679
Speaker 5: you check out all the other universe and pick the

452
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:50,159
Speaker 5: one you like.

453
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to watch the show or read the

454
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 1: Wikipedia page to find out.

455
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,679
Speaker 5: Really, that's a big spoiler. The user interface is a

456
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 5: big spoiler.

457
00:20:58,119 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 1: I don't want to give it away, man, I want

458
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 1: people to watch the show. But this does raise the question,

459
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 1: which is you know the role of the human in

460
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,400
Speaker 1: observing there's a lot of people out there who imagine

461
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 1: the quantum mechanics depends on like having a conscious observer.

462
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 1: When we talk about the observer effect, the wave function collapsing,

463
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,200
Speaker 1: choosing one universe out of many, a lot of people

464
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 1: think that it requires a person like a conscious observer.

465
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,639
Speaker 1: And I think that's just basically a misunderstanding of the

466
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,360
Speaker 1: observer effect, because what quantum mechanics tells us is that

467
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 1: the wave function collapses anytime a quantum system interacts with

468
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 1: any classical object, meaning like something big, you know, like

469
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 1: a baseball or a screen or a detector or your eyeball.

470
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 1: Doesn't have to be something conscious. In this show, the

471
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: imagine that it has to be like a conscious person

472
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,360
Speaker 1: to collapse the wave function, and that by taking this ampuol,

473
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 1: you're like removing that so it doesn't collapse. So they're

474
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 1: imagining that humans are special somehow in collapsing the wave function.

475
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,440
Speaker 1: That's not the way it really works in quantum mechanics.

476
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 1: So they need this fudge for the show to work. So,

477
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 1: you know, I can forgive it, but I don't want

478
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 1: people to misunderstand that quantum mechanics requires a conscious human observer.

479
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 5: Right right, things collapse just when they interact with other systems, right,

480
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 5: and a human brain is just another system. Just what

481
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 5: you're saying.

482
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: It depends on the system they interact with. A quantum

483
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 1: system will not collapse if it interacts with another quantum system.

484
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 1: Like two electrons can interact and still stay in quantum

485
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: superposition because they're built quantum objects. But if an electron

486
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: interacts with a classical object, a screen, a detector, your eyeball, whatever,

487
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,120
Speaker 1: then it will collapse. And people are probably thinking, huh,

488
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: what's the difference between a classical and a quantum system?

489
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 1: Where do you draw the line? Isn't a classical system

490
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 1: actually built out of little quantum particles? Yes? Absolutely not

491
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: a question we have an answer to. That's the famous

492
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 1: measurement problem in quantum mechanics.

493
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 5: As in the answer just that classical objects are quantum objects,

494
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 5: except that they're just made up of so many quantum

495
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 5: objects that it statistically kind of overwhelms the uncertainty.

496
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 1: Well, we don't really understand how that happens, you know,

497
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 1: the transition between quantum and classical. If quantum objects can

498
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 1: intera with other quantum objects and remain in superposition, why

499
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,880
Speaker 1: can a billion quantum objects not do that or a trillion.

500
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: That's not something we understand. According to mathematics, it should

501
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: be possible, you know, so we don't understand when something

502
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: becomes classical.

503
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 5: What about this idea that you can connect multiverses together.

504
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 5: Is that something that physicists think is impossible? Or do

505
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,880
Speaker 5: you think that it's possible to travel between multiverses.

506
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,719
Speaker 1: It's very skeptical of that idea. Most of the multiverse

507
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: theories involve universes that cannot interact in any way. In

508
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: the many worlds theory, for example, the wave function has

509
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: split and there's no way for those branches of the

510
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: wave function to interact. Just simply having a box in

511
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: one of the universes that you haven't looked inside of

512
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: doesn't connect the universes in any way. There's no way

513
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 1: to connect to that other universe. So yeah, that I

514
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: don't think is actually possible, but you know, again, I'm

515
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: willing to fudge it. Although it raises the question like

516
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 1: if one person in one of these universes builds a box,

517
00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, there's a box in all

518
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 1: those other universes that you can step out of. That

519
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: means that in any of the universes. Anybody built a

520
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: box and makes the box in the other universes, then

521
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 1: all the universes should be filled with an infinite number

522
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 1: of boxes.

523
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 5: What wait, wait, there's only one box in the show.

524
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: No, there's an infinite number of boxes, because he builds

525
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: one box and that makes the box appear in all

526
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 1: the other branches of the universe, so he can step

527
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 1: out of the box in those universes.

528
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 5: Wait what who built those other boxes in those other universes?

529
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, unexplained. It just sort of is created when he

530
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 1: builds the one and then doesn't look inside of it

531
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: because it's now in a quantum superposition. It exists in

532
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: all those universes. That's not really explained. And so if

533
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: any other version of him also builds the box, then

534
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: it should exist in our universe as well, and so

535
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: we should have an infinite number of those boxes. The

536
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: whole universe should be filled with boxes.

537
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 5: Well, isn't that a big plot hole? Like who built

538
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 5: the boxes in the other universes?

539
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: Yeah? Great question, and a question I'm going to put

540
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: to the writers of the show in just a minute.

541
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 5: Oh well, this is pretty exciting, Daniel. You got to

542
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 5: interview two people involved in the show. One is one

543
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 5: of the screenwriters and the other one is a scientific

544
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 5: consultant for the show.

545
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 1: That's right. I talked to Jacqueline ben Zechary, one of

546
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 1: the screenwriters for the show. She wrote a couple of

547
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: the last episodes. I talked to about writing for the

548
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: show and her process and how they consider the science.

549
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: And I know they involved a physicist as a scientific

550
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: consultant who happens to be a physicist that you and

551
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: I know, and who happens to be here with me

552
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: at the Aspen Center for Physics this week where I am,

553
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: and so I reached out to him and he agreed

554
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: to talk to me about what it's like to be

555
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: a science advisor on this kind of show.

556
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 5: All right, Well, we'll get to Daniel's interview with a

557
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 5: screenwriter and scientific consultant for the Apple TV show Dark Matter.

558
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 5: When we come back from the break.

559
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,080
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Speaker 5: All right, we're talking about the Apple TV show Dark Matter,

628
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 5: which is a science fiction show about the multiverse and

629
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 5: being able to travel between them and being able to

630
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 5: I guess, high five and or kicknap other versions of

631
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 5: yourself that made bad choices according to your current version.

632
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 5: It's a little fuzzy.

633
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's really the theme of the show is

634
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: like thinking about other parts of your life and decisions

635
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: you made, sort of like that sliding window movie. Was

636
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: it called a sliding glass doors? What was that movie

637
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: with Gwyneth Paltrow? You know, other choices you might have

638
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: made at leads to.

639
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 5: Other sliding glass window. Yeah, I think that's what It's

640
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 5: called the lading rear view mirror.

641
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. That's really the theme of the show,

642
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: and they use the multiverse as a way to explore that.

643
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 5: Well, you got to interview both a screenwriter and the

644
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 5: scientific advisor for the show, and so here is Daniel's

645
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 5: interview with screenwriter Jacqueline ben Zachreed.

646
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: Okay, so then it's my great pleasure to welcome to

647
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: the podcast Jacqueline ben Zachary. Jacqueline, thank you very much

648
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: for taking some time.

649
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 7: To talk to us, of course, and you can call

650
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 7: me JBZ. That's what most people do, so it's easier.

651
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: All right, great, So tell us a little bit about

652
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: your background. How you got into science fiction writing and

653
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: working in television for people who want to have your job?

654
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: How did you get it?

655
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 7: Oh, very mean, during and weird, it's kind of how

656
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 7: it all happened. Yeah, I don't want to go back

657
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 7: too far in time, but I'm dyslexic. I grew up

658
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 7: having a really difficult time, Like I didn't really know

659
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 7: how to read until I was.

660
00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 9: Sixth grade or so.

661
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 7: Somewhere and there I actually figured out how to not

662
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 7: just read, but understand what I was reading, and it

663
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 7: became an obsession. Like the idea of words and what

664
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 7: they mean. I think it's not that they have greater

665
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 7: meaning to me than other people, but I think that

666
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 7: I appreciate them in a different way. I see them

667
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 7: in a different way.

668
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 9: So always.

669
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 7: From a very young age, I was obsessed with books

670
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 7: and with the idea of reading, and like this concept

671
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 7: that it makes you smart if you can understand what

672
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 7: you're reading, which is like so silly and simple, but

673
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 7: you know, like I was a kid, and you know,

674
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 7: once I got a little bit older, I ended up

675
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,479
Speaker 7: working at Amazon for a while doing some you know,

676
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 7: I was in process improvement, statistical analysis, and six Sigma.

677
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 7: I really loved you know, Mathew Mathew Mathy all day.

678
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 7: It was really great. But I was missing some of

679
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 7: that creative energy. So I ended up it was a

680
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 7: semi being headhunted.

681
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 9: Semi.

682
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 7: I was looking for an opportunity to be more in

683
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 7: I would say, a creative role. So I got a

684
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 7: job working and publishing Thomas Mercer, Amazon Publishing, and I

685
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 7: really loved that job. I really loved being around story

686
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 7: and writers and it's just, you know, life has a

687
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 7: way of sort of evolving.

688
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 9: Over time, you know.

689
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 7: I started off in marketing and trying to understand how

690
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 7: people react to story and why they buy what they buy,

691
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 7: and slowly I became more convinced that the way to

692
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 7: sell a better book is to have the book be better,

693
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 7: and so I became an editor, but then I was

694
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 7: really not very good at that aspect of the job

695
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 7: because I saw potential in every single book. Like it

696
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 7: was very easy for me as the marketing person to

697
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 7: say this book.

698
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 9: Will sell well and this one will not.

699
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 7: But when it came to actually interacting the story, it's

700
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 7: very difficult for me to say, Ah, this story can

701
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 7: never get good enough and can never become a good

702
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 7: enough as a writer, will never be written the way

703
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 7: that we on it to be written. And so I

704
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 7: kind of immediately sort of started my own side business

705
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 7: editing books as a developmental story let or, which is

706
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 7: a little different for those of you who don't know

707
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 7: much about publishing. It's like there is sort of the

708
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 7: acquisitions editor, whose job it is to sort of make

709
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 7: the money work and make it make sense, and they

710
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 7: do give a lot of notes. But developmental editors are

711
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 7: the people that, like, as you're writing the book, help

712
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 7: you figure stuff out and help you figure out your characters,

713
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 7: and you know, in some cases, just write better. And

714
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 7: so I started doing that on the side, and then

715
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 7: eventually that business grew to being my full time job

716
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 7: and I quit my big, stinky corporate job.

717
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: That must have been an amazing moment, right.

718
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 7: It's an amazing moment that came a little bit with

719
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 7: on the heels of a tiny amount of failure. Like

720
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 7: I had had a memory breakdown, which I don't want

721
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 7: to go into too much detail here, not because it's

722
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 7: not interesting, but because it's not what we're here to

723
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 7: talk about. But I've spoken gibberish in a meeting. I

724
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 7: was very confused. I had fugue states. I was walking

725
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 7: home strangely, and it was kind of like this big

726
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 7: moment where it's like, oh, you either have brain cancer

727
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 7: and you're dying, and this is your whole life, just

728
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 7: working sixty hours a week making some amount of money

729
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 7: that doesn't make you happy, or you are doing this

730
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 7: to yourself. It's stress and you're creating this problem within

731
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 7: your own brain. And it was like the dark night

732
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 7: of this whole weekend, you know.

733
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:27,439
Speaker 9: And I kind of just looked at.

734
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 7: The math and I was like, I can make enough

735
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 7: money off my business and not be unhappy, and it

736
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 7: kind of doesn't matter if I have cancer, if it's stress.

737
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 9: So I quit my job and then found out I

738
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 9: wasn't dying.

739
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 7: You know that, You know the story has a happy

740
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 7: ending for those you aren't sure, and he was stress, Yeah.

741
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: Well that's great.

742
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 9: It was a big moment for me when I got

743
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 9: to do that.

744
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 7: And then from there, I was in publishing for a

745
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 7: long time, and I've been Blake Crouch's developmental editor since Pines,

746
00:34:53,800 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 7: and so when he was developing a couple of other projects,

747
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 7: because I've always been in the mix of that, and

748
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 7: we were working on developing another television show that was

749
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 7: like pretty close to going and you know, we've gotten

750
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 7: pretty far on the road with some producers and there

751
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 7: was like.

752
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 9: Money already starting to come in for it, and.

753
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 7: Dark Matter got greenlit, and it was this immediate moment

754
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 7: where it's like, you can't do both.

755
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 9: That's literally impossible.

756
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 7: So it was like, Okay, well, I guess we'll do

757
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 7: Dark Matter instead. And that's kind of how the whole

758
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 7: thing happened. It's so weird and random, but a lot

759
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 7: of fun too. I've really enjoyed the ride.

760
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: Wonderful. Well, congrats in the show. It's a lot of fun.

761
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 1: The show features a lot of themes of quantum mechanics.

762
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 1: You know, you have superposition, the multiverse. What is exciting

763
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 1: to you as a writer about these themes. What opportunities

764
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: and challenges does that create that you were excited about.

765
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 7: Wow, that's a really good question. Theme wise, I think

766
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 7: I'm very drawn to duality in general. I think there's

767
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 7: something really fascinating about you know, for those of you

768
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 7: who are watching the show, and if you haven't, I

769
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 7: don't want to spoil anything, but for those who've watched

770
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 7: the show, we're dealing with one person who is expressed

771
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 7: in multiple versions of himself. And kind of how it

772
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 7: works is like, we have Jason two and Jason one,

773
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 7: and they were the same person until fifteen years ago

774
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 7: when one decided to have a family and the other

775
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 7: decided to pursue his career. And to be clear, no

776
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 7: one here is saying you have to do one or

777
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 7: the other, but like, for this story, that has happened,

778
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 7: and it.

779
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 9: Was the idea of like that.

780
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 7: Jason two later does a bunch of really I would say,

781
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 7: incredibly dastardly things and really horrifying, terrible things, and Jason

782
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 7: one kind of, you know, maintains this positivity.

783
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 9: He's a good guy, but the reality is that they

784
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 9: are the same person.

785
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 7: And when writing him and writing his actions and what

786
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 7: he's doing you have to actually look deep within yourself

787
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 7: to the things that keep you from doing bad and

788
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 7: that or that keep you from doing good, and how

789
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 7: they are just like the batman the joke er. They

790
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 7: are two sides of the same coin. And that's exciting

791
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 7: to look at. It's exciting to think about, you know,

792
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 7: why we make the choices that we make, and who

793
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 7: we are when you strip away all those trapings of

794
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 7: life and circumstances, like how would you actually interact and

795
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 7: react to things? So those are thematically the funnest things.

796
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 7: But I am a big sci fi dorc Like definitely

797
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 7: that's not I don't want to say not normal. That

798
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 7: sounds really insulting, but you know, on the scale of like,

799
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 7: you know, the minutia and the science, that all really

800
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 7: matters to me. So I was also equally excited to

801
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 7: be able to go in here and be like, let's actually,

802
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 7: you know, talk about some of these issues to a

803
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 7: wide audience of people. This kind of science is kind

804
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 7: of thinking this. I do think of physics more as

805
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 7: philosophy than anything else, this philosophical way of thinking about

806
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 7: the universe, and expose that to a lot of people

807
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 7: who would never normally choose the show because we made

808
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 7: it about regular people doing regular.

809
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 9: Things, and the science is just it's another character.

810
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 7: It's not the focus of every second, and that was

811
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 7: probably the most exciting part for me.

812
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: The show is sort of like a mystery or a thriller.

813
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: You're trying to like unravel what happened, And to me,

814
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: I'm always really impressed when somebody writes that kind of

815
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 1: story in a science fiction universe, because it's so challenging

816
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: for the audience to know if the rules are being

817
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: followed and what the rules are. How important is it

818
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: to you as a writer that the universe you created

819
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: follows like a coherent and consistent set of rules, even

820
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: of course if they aren't the rules of our universe,

821
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 1: or are you like, let's just make the story happen

822
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: and will you know, fill in some science frosting when

823
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: we need to.

824
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 7: Oh, I'm definitely the more the first type. And this

825
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 7: goes back to being a developmental editor. You know, the tropes,

826
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 7: which is kind of what you're talking about, right, Like,

827
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 7: there's what the audience expects tropes. Like when I say mystery,

828
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 7: it means you don't know the solution to the problem,

829
00:38:58,440 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 7: to the last twenty five percent.

830
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 9: Of the show, movie, or book.

831
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 7: Right, that's a mystery versus thriller, which is like, you

832
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 7: know the problem very early on is how are you

833
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 7: going to solve it? You know, so like that's what

834
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 7: the audiences expect. And then there's the writing trips, like

835
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 7: actually how you structure things, So like, for example, fantasy,

836
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 7: we structure it where you have multiple stories interacting at

837
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 7: various points, so you don't do that per se in

838
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 7: like science fiction usually that's those are structural differences.

839
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 9: So for me, like when it comes to the mixing

840
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 9: of like.

841
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 7: Mystery and thriller and you know, all these different things

842
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 7: into our speculative fiction, I am pretty obsessed with the

843
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 7: rules because I think the rules are how you keep

844
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 7: people grounded. So like there's the rules of the science,

845
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 7: which I think have to be established very early on,

846
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 7: and it needs to be blunt. Like it's the one

847
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 7: area in all of writing where you're like, hey, we

848
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 7: can be on the nose here just same mean, which

849
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 7: is lazy and fun.

850
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 9: Right.

851
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 7: There is the weighing with the rules, which is like

852
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 7: the assumptions that we make, and there is the assumption

853
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 7: that we make scientifically, like consciousness connects to reality. We

854
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 7: know that that is some element of that is true, right,

855
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 7: But then we sort of expand that out and say, Okay,

856
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 7: if consciousness connects to reality, then I guess you have

857
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 7: to have consciousness in this world in order to be

858
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 7: able to go to this world. So now how we

859
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 7: have a rule you have to have been born in

860
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 7: that world to be able to go there. And so

861
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 7: it is a lot of fun to take theoretically realish

862
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 7: rules and then sort of play with them as well.

863
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 9: I definitely think we did both in this show.

864
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 7: And I don't think you can ask people to trust

865
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 7: you so much that you throw a bunch of nonsense

866
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 7: to the wall and say that's not real science, that's

867
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 7: not real storytelling, and expect people to go along with it.

868
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 7: Like people want to feel like they're satisfied at the

869
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 7: end of it, like oh I got it, and not

870
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 7: only did I get it, I got something hard.

871
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 9: And so we do have to always be.

872
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 7: Coming back to the rules and always be coming back

873
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 7: to the things that makes sense, and always coming back

874
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 7: to what you've established that it's also satisfying, and that's

875
00:40:58,719 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 7: a trope thing.

876
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, how much of the rules of the universe

877
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: you're writing in are the rules of our universe? And

878
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: how much did you like extend and fill in the

879
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: gaps where we just don't know how things work? And

880
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: also tell us a little bit about how you used

881
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: the science Advisor in this show. I happen to know

882
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 1: cliff Johnson quite well.

883
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 9: I'm in love with him. If you could let him

884
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 9: know that, like I think he I think he knows

885
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 9: if you could let him.

886
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: Ma, that's very charming.

887
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 9: He is super charming and just really just nice and smart.

888
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

889
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 7: I asked him a question about entanglement once and he

890
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 7: was way too nice to me. How much of this

891
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 7: is the rules of our universe? I hope my understanding

892
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 7: is that, and God I would love to know it.

893
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 9: Clifford thinks I think it's.

894
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 7: Probably eighty five percent theoretically possible, right, Like, we're playing

895
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 7: with math that exists for sure, but we're expanding it

896
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 7: pretty considerably in like just just go with me here,

897
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 7: you know, we get philosophical to real. So I'd say, yeah,

898
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 7: it's pretty close. But there's definitely some stuff that's like,

899
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 7: you know, totally bs that we just sort of, you know,

900
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 7: added in there because it's a lot of fun but

901
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 7: I think the thing that we play with more in

902
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 7: our universe is sort of history. I think that that's

903
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 7: the more fun thing to play with, like for me especially,

904
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 7: but I also know for Blake, getting the science as

905
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,479
Speaker 7: close to possible to being plausible so that you could

906
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 7: go out and interact with other forms of this science

907
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 7: and understand it better, that's really important to us, and

908
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 7: so we try to stay in that sphere. But like

909
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 7: you know, imagining a world where completely different things happened, like,

910
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 7: that's a lot more fun than playing with science, I think,

911
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 7: And that tends to be where we kind.

912
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 9: Of really go off the rails.

913
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 7: Like one of the worlds that we explore, World twenty

914
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 7: six is the sort of utopia world. We're like, well,

915
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 7: what if they just, you know, instead of developing the bomb,

916
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 7: what if they put all those resources into creating what's

917
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 7: called endless environmentally conscious energy, Right, what if that was

918
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 7: what we did instead. That's not a judgment on the

919
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 7: Manhattan Project. I grew up in Hamford. I tend to

920
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 7: have a very strong attachment to that concept and that

921
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 7: it's one of the greatest achievements in all of human history, right, Like,

922
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 7: doing that scale of science and doing it that quickly

923
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 7: and that engineering and on that thinking.

924
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 9: But you know, the outcome wasn't really.

925
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 7: Always like the most pleasant thing, And so what if

926
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 7: we'd done something inherently more positive. What does that mean

927
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 7: if you chose that over a destructive device. Well, you're

928
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 7: probably in a world where there's more empathy. You're probably

929
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 7: in a world where or we communicate better. And so

930
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,720
Speaker 7: I think a lot more liberty was taken with history

931
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 7: and sociology than less taken with real science, if you

932
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 7: know what I mean.

933
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I think that's really creative. I really like

934
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: that part of the show. I found myself like excited

935
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,280
Speaker 1: every time they opened the door to a new universe,

936
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,439
Speaker 1: like what's this one? What did they dream of? Time?

937
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 1: And Yeah, I was always impressed.

938
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 7: I just want to say this because I didn't really

939
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 7: answer your Cliver johnsonthing. Clifford was really great about being

940
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 7: a good carrot and stick guy. I just want to

941
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 7: say that, like cliff was like, yeah, I mean, sure

942
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 7: you could make it look like this, it's not a problem.

943
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 7: But then I remember there were a couple of times

944
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 7: during in No Atmosphere World where we had charred and

945
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 7: burned stuff places and he's like, no, absolutely, not, that

946
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 7: would not happen.

947
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 9: Those are not the colors. That's not how it would

948
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 9: look like.

949
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 7: I just love when you could tell that something really

950
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 7: matters to your scientific advice and you're like, oh, don't

951
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 7: touch that.

952
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well hopefully that's representative of like the nerds

953
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: watching your show, and you don't want to piss them

954
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:38,479
Speaker 1: off either.

955
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 9: Absolutely. I don't like being wrong. I don't think anyone

956
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 9: does right.

957
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: So for the nerds out there in the audience, of

958
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: which I count myself one, since I get to talk

959
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: to you, I do have some questions about the rules

960
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: of the universe and how it works. One thing I

961
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: was wondering about what you thought about how you guys

962
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: worked out is how the box exists in the other universes.

963
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: Creates the box, and his university builds it. He physically

964
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: puts it together. Then he goes to another universe he

965
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: steps out of the box. That box is also in

966
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: that universe, and I found myself wondering, like, who built

967
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: it or how did that come to be? Do you

968
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: guys grapple with that kind of question? Are you just

969
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: kind of like, hmm, we need a little bit of.

970
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 9: Fudge there, you're going to get into there.

971
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 7: See now I'm going to contradict myself, like now we're

972
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 7: getting into woo.

973
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: Wu Right, okay, let's go there.

974
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,439
Speaker 7: Yeah for sure, for sure, like we know the laws

975
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 7: of thermodynamics would not allow this to happen, right, because

976
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 7: like our theory is that it spawns and that it

977
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 7: it just arrives there because it is a gateway. So

978
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 7: once Jason creates it in his world, it's sort of

979
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 7: like I guess I would describe it as like an

980
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 7: anchor point. It is the nexus by which all.

981
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 9: Universes are connecting.

982
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 7: So in theory, when you see that box, say in

983
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 7: no atmosphere world or in the world where they're in

984
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 7: the water.

985
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 9: That is actually the same box.

986
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 7: It's just being represented there physically so we can go

987
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 7: in and out. And that's why the corridor is just

988
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 7: the box repeating across because it's just your mind making

989
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 7: sense of it.

990
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 9: But definitely, like you know.

991
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 7: Things start to fall apart when you really think about it,

992
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 7: because yeah, where did that energy, where.

993
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 9: Did that matter come from?

994
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 7: I mean, I think it's the same matter, but yeah,

995
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 7: send me some hate mail about that.

996
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 9: It's probably not good.

997
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: No, it's just fun to think about, and I liked

998
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: the show encourages you to like think hard about how

999
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: things work and what it means, and you know, it

1000
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: changes how the characters behave in the world. I think

1001
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 1: it's great. You know, it's a sign of a really

1002
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: good science fiction. But in this case, you guys weren't

1003
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: just starting from scratch and creating something new. I mean,

1004
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: Blake had written this novel already. What's it like to

1005
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: adapt a book like that to the screen rather than

1006
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 1: start from scratch? What are the challenges there?

1007
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 7: I think the biggest challenge I'll start with that one,

1008
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 7: which might reveal I'm a negative thinker, But the biggest

1009
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 7: challenge is.

1010
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 9: Like what people expect, the expectations. You know. I helped

1011
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 9: like develop this story.

1012
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 7: So I remember being in we were in Portland, and

1013
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 7: like the idea of like, oh, how much your emotions

1014
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 7: would affect the worlds that you land on came directly

1015
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 7: from a dark conversation I was having with him about RoboCop,

1016
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 7: you know what I mean, Like, so I'm so immeshed

1017
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 7: in this story that that.

1018
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 9: Aspect of it was very easy. It was like, oh, okay,

1019
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 9: we can do that.

1020
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 7: But then you get letters from people that are like

1021
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 7: I was considering, you know, ending my life, and then

1022
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 7: I read this book and I thought I can actually

1023
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 7: be empowered to make changes. And when you were facing

1024
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 7: that kind of fan reaction, when you have literally hundreds

1025
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 7: of people saying I hadn't read a book in twenty

1026
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 7: years and I read Dark Matter and one day and

1027
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 7: I'm now a big reader like that, I think that

1028
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 7: that had more of an emotional impact on me than

1029
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 7: anything else. Was like how much the story meant to

1030
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 7: a lot of people, and wanting to.

1031
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 9: Fulfill those fan love feelings, but also.

1032
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 7: Creating that now for a whole new audience of people

1033
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 7: who for whatever reason would never read this book, but

1034
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 7: we'll engage with this material in this way. So that

1035
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 7: was probably the biggest challenge, was figuring out where to

1036
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 7: be true to that original stuff to make the fans happy,

1037
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 7: but also so ilicit that.

1038
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 9: Same emotional reaction from new people.

1039
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 7: I would say the funnest part about it, for sure,

1040
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 7: I love producing, like I think the funnest part is

1041
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 7: like looking at seven hundred versions of ash World that's

1042
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 7: the world where the balt Worlds are crumbling, and watching

1043
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 7: that VFX like for the seven thousandth time and being like,

1044
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 7: I'd like this window to be slightly brighter, Like it

1045
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 7: just speaks to some deeper OCD that I might have.

1046
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 9: From a writing standpoint.

1047
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 7: Though, like adapting this book, I think that the funnest

1048
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 7: part about it was getting to expand the characters because

1049
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 7: we don't really know Amanda, we don't really know Daniella,

1050
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 7: we don't really know Charlie. We kind of get to

1051
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 7: know in a little but we don't know him. We

1052
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 7: definitely don't know Layton, and you need to know them

1053
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 7: for the show to make sense, Like, you know, you

1054
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 7: need to expand everyone because when you see them and

1055
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 7: they don't have reactions to certain things, it's not a

1056
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 7: flaw of the book. The book is a single POV game.

1057
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 7: It doesn't matter what else is happening around you. But

1058
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 7: now you're actually asking humans to embody that and we

1059
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 7: have to know more about them, and that was the

1060
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 7: most exciting, I think, besides being weird about details and

1061
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,240
Speaker 7: what color of watch is Jason wearing in this scene

1062
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 7: and what color shirt is he wearing to make that

1063
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 7: all work those puzzles aside, expanding the characters, especially the women,

1064
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 7: was the best part of the whole thing.

1065
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: Well, as a viewer, I found one of the greatest

1066
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: challenges just like keeping track of like which Jason am

1067
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: I watching now, especially you know later on, when you

1068
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: get so many different Jason's. How do you handle that

1069
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: as a writer, how do you give the audience the clue,

1070
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 1: you know, without like giving everybody a unique haircut, you know,

1071
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: or hovering a number over their head.

1072
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1073
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 7: I mean that was probably one of the hardest things

1074
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,399
Speaker 7: to do, because the easiest answers, like, you know, because

1075
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 7: we have for those of you who've seen eight, we

1076
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 7: have burn Face Jason. We have Jason thirteen. Who's the

1077
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 7: guy that talks to Jason one in the tavern.

1078
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 9: I want to call it the David Damma. That's the

1079
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 9: real name the village tap story.

1080
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 7: When they're talking, like, these characters look different, so it

1081
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,919
Speaker 7: makes it a lot easier. But when we start getting

1082
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 7: into the fifty other Jasons that are there, that was

1083
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 7: a lot harder.

1084
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 9: And what I ended up.

1085
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 7: Doing with our costumer and our hair and makeup people

1086
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 7: was in our eighties because those people really need to

1087
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 7: understand what's happening. They have to organize this whole thing

1088
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 7: was creating like a rubric of like based on how

1089
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 7: violent the Jason is, we determined that that is when

1090
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 7: he lost his Amanda because we feel like Amanda psychologist.

1091
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 7: She's giving him we see the whole show, she's giving

1092
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 7: him therapy. The whole time, she's comforting him, she's helping him.

1093
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 9: Figure this stuff out.

1094
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 7: So the earlier Amanda dies or leaves him, is the

1095
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 7: more violent and more you know, sort of crazed and

1096
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,439
Speaker 7: unhinged that Jason is, because we know that that's in him.

1097
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 7: We've established that, We've seen Prison World, where Jason has

1098
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 7: obviously done something terrible to someone. We've seen what Jason

1099
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,800
Speaker 7: two is capable of. We know that Jason Wan's capable,

1100
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,720
Speaker 7: So it's about what actually breaks his brain.

1101
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 9: And how broken is it. And so once we knew

1102
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 9: what that was, we.

1103
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 7: Just focused the costumes on where we think he branched

1104
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 7: from Amanda. So careful viewers will see, like Jason in

1105
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 7: the Snow outfit from Snow World, if he's still in

1106
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 7: that outfit, that means Amanda died close or left him

1107
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 7: close to that time period. So that means that he

1108
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 7: went twenty days alone in the box, which is a

1109
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,479
Speaker 7: lot crazier than going three days on the box, which

1110
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 7: is what our Jason did, so that kind of makes

1111
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:49,320
Speaker 7: big difference if you look back, like some of the

1112
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 7: first guy that gets killed by Jason one in the alley,

1113
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 7: the most violent guy that we've seen so far, he's

1114
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 7: wearing the original costume. So that was kind of fun

1115
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 7: to play with. And then we just did really settle

1116
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 7: things from there green Beanie or blue Beanie, you know,

1117
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 7: like just so that you could know it's not the

1118
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 7: exact same guy you saw last time. But we also

1119
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 7: embraced the idea that like it kind of also doesn't matter,

1120
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 7: like if you're a little bit confused here and there,

1121
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 7: that's actually part of the joy is like, you know,

1122
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 7: it's the same thing Inception does. Do we know if

1123
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 7: he got home? Like I think he didn't aside, but

1124
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 7: it's kind of like, doesn't matter. That's not the story

1125
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 7: we're telling. The story we're telling is about the complexities

1126
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 7: of coming back to your life. That's what we're talking about.

1127
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 7: So I think it doesn't really matter. But yeah, it's

1128
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 7: definitely all very carefully planned. And if you freeze the

1129
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 7: show and you look at the color of the ring

1130
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 7: of thread on their fingers and you look at the

1131
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 7: color of their hats.

1132
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 9: You will actually be able to tell who is here.

1133
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: Awesome. I'm sure somebody out there and Reddit is doing.

1134
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 7: Exactly or if they're not, they're probably getting like hack

1135
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 7: into my computer.

1136
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 9: I get the cells right, but you'll know everything.

1137
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: So I asked our listeners if they have questions for you,

1138
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,919
Speaker 1: and listeners who are watching the show. We've only seen

1139
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: six or seven episodes so far. The number one question

1140
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: was why is it called dark matter? And obviously this

1141
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: physics in the show, but it's mostly like multiverse, quantum mechanics, superposition.

1142
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: Where's the dark matter in the show?

1143
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 7: It came from a conversation and I was there for it,

1144
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,720
Speaker 7: but you know, it might be good to ask Cliff

1145
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:24,399
Speaker 7: actually about this. The there's a debate if dark matter exists, right,

1146
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:25,280
Speaker 7: and there's also.

1147
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 9: A debate about what it does.

1148
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 7: And like black holes, it's like I personally believe in

1149
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 7: the sort of mirror universe of going through the black hole,

1150
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,959
Speaker 7: like you know, the chair just exists on the other side.

1151
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 7: That's maybe not scientifically very accurate, but I think it's

1152
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 7: an interesting theory, So that idea of the complete sort

1153
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 7: of unknown, but also it's a word that you've heard

1154
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 7: enough that you're like, ah, science fiction.

1155
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 9: That's honestly the truth, Like she.

1156
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 6: Is like.

1157
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: Mysterious science.

1158
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,479
Speaker 7: Ye science see, and it doesn't actually, if you dig

1159
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 7: into it, actually for sure mean anything yet like it's

1160
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 7: still you know, like yeah, so yeah. But it's also

1161
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 7: a little confusing because you know, Pearl Jams out there

1162
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 7: touring with dark matter and so.

1163
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 9: You know, maybe the most ideal name either.

1164
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 1: So my last question for you is a more personal one.

1165
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: Imagine you have the box in front of you. You

1166
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: can go inside of it, you can visit another universe

1167
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: and that you exist. What's your alternative reality? What are

1168
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: you choosing?

1169
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 3: Like?

1170
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:24,760
Speaker 9: Am I intentionally choosing?

1171
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 7: Like I get to go see the version of myself,

1172
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 7: not like I accidentally sort of wash up on shore

1173
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 7: at a terrible place.

1174
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can pick some other version of your life

1175
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 1: to go visit or you know, kidnap and replace them.

1176
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: Where are you going?

1177
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 9: Huh?

1178
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 6: You know.

1179
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 9: The first thing I really wanted to do with my life.

1180
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 7: I went to like a music magnet high school, and

1181
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 7: I was very involved in music, and for a long

1182
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 7: time I thought I was going to be a musician.

1183
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 7: And it's one of those sort of stories I think

1184
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 7: that everyone has, where like you get to a certain

1185
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 7: point in your process where you realize that it's not

1186
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 7: that you are not that you're hard worker, you're actually

1187
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 7: not talented, and some careers require a certain level of

1188
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 7: actual talent. And the realization that I was not good

1189
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 7: enough to actually have the future as like a composer

1190
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 7: and musician.

1191
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 9: That I thought I was going to have was a

1192
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 9: really brutal one.

1193
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 7: And I often wonder if there is a world where

1194
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 7: I hadn't decided that I wasn't good enough, and if

1195
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 7: I had continued to fight.

1196
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 9: And be that level of brave, you know, what would

1197
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 9: that life be like.

1198
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 7: I'm not saying she would have succeeded, but I would

1199
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 7: like to see what she did, you.

1200
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 9: Know, that's the curiosity of mine.

1201
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: Awesome, Well, it would be cool to get to go

1202
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: and you know, attend one of your own concerts in

1203
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: another place in the multiverse. Very cool.

1204
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 9: Let me ask you what would yours be?

1205
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: Wow? A great question. I'm totally not prepared for that. Yeah, well,

1206
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 1: you know, physicist is sort of what I always wanted

1207
00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 1: to be, so I don't have that like, Oh, I

1208
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: wish i'd gotten to be, But there are other paths

1209
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: that I didn't take. You know, when I was young,

1210
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: I also wanted to be an artist or a science

1211
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: fiction author, for example, and never got to do that.

1212
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'd like to go see if that would

1213
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: have worked out for another version of Daniel.

1214
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 9: He's still could anyway, it's right that book like, Well.

1215
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: I live in southern California, where you're obliged to produce

1216
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: the screenplay every two years with your citizenship, you know,

1217
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: totally totally awesome. Well, thanks very much for answering our question,

1218
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 1: and thanks for this wonderful show. Speaking for everybody out there,

1219
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: we're really glad you created it.

1220
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 9: Thank you, all right, thank you.

1221
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:41,879
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

1222
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

1223
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:49,240
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite,

1224
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are us. Dairy

1225
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1226
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Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

1227
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Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

1228
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Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

1229
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Speaker 1: For example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four times.

1230
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Speaker 1: The same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn,

1231
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Speaker 1: and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy tackling greenhouse gases?

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Speaker 1: Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from

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Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice

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Speaker 1: dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

1240
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Speaker 10: There are children, friends, and families walking, riding on passing

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1242
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Speaker 5: All right, interesting conversation there. It's kind of interesting how

1271
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 5: as a TV writer you kind of have to think

1272
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 5: about what the science tells you might be possible, and

1273
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 5: then you kind of have to figure out how to

1274
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 5: get a good story out of that.

1275
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, you got to balance both things. If you're

1276
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: too strict on the science, it doesn't let you tell

1277
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: the story you want to tell. But you also have

1278
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 1: to be plausible, right, You have to have the story

1279
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 1: makes sense so that the viewer is engaged. It feels

1280
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: like there are rules that are being followed.

1281
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 5: I feel like, Daniel, do you have a flexible rule yourself?

1282
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: What it's that flexible room.

1283
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,959
Speaker 5: Sometimes you like when the rules are followed, sometimes you don't.

1284
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 1: I always prefer when the rules are followed, but you

1285
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 1: know you can't.

1286
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 5: Be too harsh. You prefer you prefer.

1287
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: Right, strong preference.

1288
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, all right, Well, Dan, you also got to interview

1289
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 5: the scientific advisor for the show, which is a friend

1290
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 5: of ours, Cliff Johnson.

1291
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, He's a professor at UC Santa Barbara and an

1292
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 1: expert in string theory and black holes and in general

1293
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics and a lot of fun to talk to.

1294
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 5: Is he an expert in dark matter or multiverses?

1295
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: I think he's an expert in being a science advisor.

1296
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: He's also worked for a lot of the Marvel movies.

1297
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 5: If you're an expert in the multiverses, does that make

1298
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 5: you an expert in everything? Like, there's a version of

1299
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 5: you out there that's probably an expert in some other

1300
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 5: field that you currently don't know.

1301
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, exactly. If only you could draw on

1302
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: their expertise.

1303
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 5: Whoa, you can make a movie like The Matrix, but

1304
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 5: with multiverses, the multi tricks. Yeah, Hollywood, give me a call.

1305
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 5: All right, Well, here is Daniel's interview with physicist Cliff Johnson.

1306
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: Great so that it's my pleasure to be here in a

1307
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 1: conversation with Cliff Johnson.

1308
01:00:58,680 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 6: Click.

1309
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 1: Tell everybody a little bit about who you are and

1310
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: what you're excited about in science.

1311
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 13: Well, I am a professor at the Physics Department at

1312
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 13: the University of California, Santa Barbara.

1313
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 6: I work on things to do with roughly these days,

1314
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 6: I say, like a quantum nature of space time? So

1315
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 6: interested in quantum gravity? Black, Hold what I through your

1316
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 6: quantum gravity looks like? So I work on things like.

1317
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 4: String theory, et cetera, but really thinking about.

1318
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 6: Space time and space and time and what it means

1319
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 6: at the quantum medal.

1320
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:34,440
Speaker 1: It's really like on the cutting edge of understanding the

1321
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 1: nature of the universe. So tell me about what it's

1322
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: like to be a science advisor. Is shoe like this?

1323
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: What do you see as the role of the science advisor?

1324
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 6: What is your job?

1325
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 4: So this is a really important question because there is.

1326
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 6: No model for what a science advisor should be, because

1327
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 6: the industry still doesn't really know what that is, and

1328
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 6: so a lot of us been working to try and

1329
01:01:57,360 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 6: help cement that.

1330
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 4: And I think what we shouldn't.

1331
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 6: Do is going with the red pencil and make it

1332
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 6: seem like we own this stuff and they're daring to

1333
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 6: play with it, and we're going.

1334
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 4: To give them a grade because they'll have a fall right.

1335
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 4: Others have different opinions, but my opinion is that the

1336
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 4: primary thing of that to.

1337
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 6: Do is to serve the story they're trying to tell,

1338
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 6: and to help them tell the story they.

1339
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 4: Want to tell. Now, sometimes you can give them advice.

1340
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 6: Given what they want to do and the science that

1341
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 6: they think they want to use, you might then say, well,

1342
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 6: if you tell me what your story goal is, I

1343
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 6: might help you tweet that a little bit, or maybe

1344
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 6: you don't need this piece, or here's a whole other

1345
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 6: bit of science you don't know that could be brought

1346
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 6: in to help you achieve that. And they're very open

1347
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 6: to that because now you're own the storyteller sign and

1348
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 6: you're just trying to serve a story. And then sometimes

1349
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 6: that can lead to the story geting completely because they

1350
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 6: get excitted about the science.

1351
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 4: They now understand that bit of science that's.

1352
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 6: I only read about it in a popular account and

1353
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 6: maybe misunderstood.

1354
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 4: Now they understand it.

1355
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 6: Now they see, oh, I want to use this aspect more,

1356
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:09,160
Speaker 6: or you tell them so it really is. I think

1357
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 6: if you go it, in my opinion, if you go

1358
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 6: in wanting to help with the story, great things can

1359
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 6: come from that, especially if it's early enough in the

1360
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 6: process that they're not wedded to everything being completely set.

1361
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 6: And so then I think science advising works istreamly. Well,

1362
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 6: you have all the other times when you're called in

1363
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 6: you should guy, you know, some big studio, it's all

1364
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 6: ready to go, they're almost ready to shoot, and then

1365
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 6: they want some buzzwords.

1366
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 4: You know, that's only so much you can do that.

1367
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 6: But if you get to kind of almost become a

1368
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 6: collaborator or someone to brainstorm, and if you then.

1369
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 4: Stick through it right through to the end, you can

1370
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 4: get some great things.

1371
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, fascinating. Well, I think sometimes about the responsibility there

1372
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 1: because a lot of people watch science fiction and they

1373
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 1: know it's fiction, but still a hubus where to hear

1374
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 1: science and they absorb it. And I wonder sometimes if

1375
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:07,919
Speaker 1: there's a responsibility to the show to get that right

1376
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 1: and and not use lead people into like common misunderstanding

1377
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 1: about what is dark Knight, what does it look like?

1378
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: You know you said a dark blog in front of

1379
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,960
Speaker 1: your spaceship or not? What do you feel about that?

1380
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 7: Is?

1381
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 1: A science advisor has some responsibility there.

1382
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 6: We have some responsibility to tell a little bit about

1383
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 6: what it's really like. We that you know, there's no

1384
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:30,600
Speaker 6: contract this says they must use a certain percentage of

1385
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 6: what we tell them.

1386
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 1: Right, right, So how you know it's an advisor I.

1387
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 4: Would advise them, so so I'll do.

1388
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 6: My best to just say, well, it wouldn't really look

1389
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 6: like this, or if it does, maybe you have a

1390
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 6: reason you could mention that, or maybe what have you.

1391
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:49,640
Speaker 4: But what happens. And this is by no.

1392
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 6: Means intended as an apology for science advisors, but it's

1393
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 6: all the process right these these projects. It's very different

1394
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 6: being a science advisor to say, on a book where

1395
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 6: you're dealing with the author of the book, versus being.

1396
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 4: A science advisor to a thing that goes into a

1397
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 4: big machine.

1398
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 6: As almost any project that you see on screen will be,

1399
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 6: it will have gone through many stages.

1400
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 4: They've gone from any iterations. You may have been the

1401
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 4: science advisor with the.

1402
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 13: Screenwriter who wrote the under old beautiful science and then

1403
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 13: and then you know, four years later you go and

1404
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 13: watch the thing and it is not the thing that

1405
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 13: was the final.

1406
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 4: Screenplay that you saw, because it went from the screenwriter

1407
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 4: to the studio to the.

1408
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 6: Director they found for the director had their own vision

1409
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 6: blah blah.

1410
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 4: So you have no control, but you try, and you

1411
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 4: hope you can get the key people involved excited enough

1412
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 4: about the.

1413
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 6: Science that they care to protect some of the things

1414
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 6: that you got into the screenplay or what have you

1415
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 6: and or maybe you know, some years later at the

1416
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 6: stage where they're shooting, a call saying, hey, you were

1417
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 6: the screen you helped the screen writer it.

1418
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,920
Speaker 4: Now please help the VFX people, right and stuff like that.

1419
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:07,440
Speaker 4: That's great.

1420
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:10,479
Speaker 6: That seldom happens, but when that happens, that's great because

1421
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 6: then there's some continuity you can kind of look in

1422
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 6: at a different stages.

1423
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about what were the

1424
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 1: challenges of being scifiiceder for this particular show. Because they

1425
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 1: got quantum mechanics, they got multiverse, they got the observer effect,

1426
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 1: they got all sorts of stuff going on. What did

1427
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 1: you do there? How did you change this story?

1428
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I first have to say.

1429
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 6: Huge amount of credit to Blake like Crouch, the author

1430
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 6: of the book it was originally based on, and then

1431
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 6: you know he's also the show runner. A side note,

1432
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 6: there's a big difference between TV and movies. In some ways,

1433
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 6: TV is very much more righteous. You know, the people

1434
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 6: who do the writing end up. You know, the director

1435
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 6: works for them and it's the first approximation. The showrunners

1436
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 6: have the fible side. That's very different in some of

1437
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 6: the models you get in a big, big cinema So

1438
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 6: that means that I think Blake, who's hugely enthusiastic about science.

1439
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 4: And is very open to hearing critiques and hearing new

1440
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 4: ideas and incorporating that, he was also in control of

1441
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 4: the final show.

1442
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 6: So I got the call to come in and chat

1443
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 6: with the various departments, and they basically said, Blake said,

1444
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 6: do whatever you say.

1445
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 1: That never happened.

1446
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 4: So at the end of the day, I.

1447
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 6: Think the main ideas were there, and so credit to

1448
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 6: Blake that the main ideas were there. He really wanted

1449
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 6: is fascinated by the classic conundra in quantum mechanics, but

1450
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 6: then he wanted to play with the idea that essentially,

1451
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 6: wouldn't it be fun if you took literally the everiety

1452
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 6: of interpretation of quantum mechanics, which is that these probabilistic

1453
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 6: choices that you seem to have in quantum mechanics really

1454
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 6: are branchings of the universe. You know, you know, you

1455
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 6: had a fifty to fifty chance of the quantum outcome being.

1456
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 4: This way or the other, and.

1457
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 6: You could just go, well, that's life, that's that's probability.

1458
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 6: But the cat was alive or it was dead when

1459
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:14,520
Speaker 6: you made the observation. Everyone would tell you know, there's

1460
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:16,680
Speaker 6: another universe in which it was the other, and then

1461
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,760
Speaker 6: that universe carried on and so these choices mount up

1462
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 6: and the universe continues branching. So Blake was going, well, well,

1463
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:26,759
Speaker 6: if you could explore those universes and essentially that's.

1464
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 4: What this is about, and then what would that mean

1465
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 4: physics wise?

1466
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:36,080
Speaker 6: So there's there's some relatively old fashioned ideas about the

1467
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 6: collapse of the weight function and things like that when

1468
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 6: you make an observation of the wave function collapses. We

1469
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:45,760
Speaker 6: tend to not really foreground that as much when we

1470
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 6: teach quantumic ads as we used to. And so I

1471
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,559
Speaker 6: was trying to explain to Blake a little bit about

1472
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 6: some of the language that.

1473
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,400
Speaker 4: People use these days in terms of coherence versus do

1474
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 4: coherence coupling systems.

1475
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 6: It to you know, how much you isolate a system

1476
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:05,719
Speaker 6: from its environment so it doesn't sort of deecer here

1477
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 6: by being coupled.

1478
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,599
Speaker 4: To another system and what have you.

1479
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 6: And those are the things you need to control if

1480
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 6: you were going to do that as a physics experiment.

1481
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:17,559
Speaker 4: So that leads to them, what would that look like?

1482
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 4: What would that device look like? So that's the box.

1483
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:21,920
Speaker 6: So it spend a lot of time discussing what the

1484
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:23,679
Speaker 6: box would look like like that.

1485
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 4: And what's in the walls of those bombs. So you don't,

1486
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 4: of course, you never learned that in the book.

1487
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 6: Or in the in the show explicitly, but you do

1488
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 6: hear a discussion or too about the fact that there's

1489
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 6: tech going on that sort of cancels out things from

1490
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 6: the outside, and so those are the sorts of things

1491
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:44,719
Speaker 6: that was giving him to make it seem at least.

1492
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 6: Another aspect of my job is that while you're watching

1493
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:50,600
Speaker 6: the thing, you're not popping out going that's ridiculous or

1494
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 6: that doesn't make sense for it. You're at least in

1495
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:55,600
Speaker 6: the two hours of what have you, the movie or

1496
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 6: the hour of the episode, you're going with it. So

1497
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:03,680
Speaker 6: to help the physicists have a plausible sounding conversation with

1498
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 6: a plausible sounding content, that helps it make it seem realistic.

1499
01:10:08,479 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 6: So indeed, I'm very pleased to you know, when I

1500
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:15,719
Speaker 6: finally saw episodes of the show, I was very pleased

1501
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:17,840
Speaker 6: to see a lot of that stuff stayed in. And

1502
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:21,080
Speaker 6: some of that stuff was my scribbling on the screenplay

1503
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 6: saying this is what they would say, and I gather

1504
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:25,760
Speaker 6: people really like that.

1505
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:27,600
Speaker 4: You know, you hear, you see the box, and you

1506
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 4: have a sense that this is a real thing Sun

1507
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 4: thought about.

1508
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:32,639
Speaker 6: So we wanted to have weight, wanted to feel real,

1509
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:35,520
Speaker 6: wanted to have it still feel like it's a prototype.

1510
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:37,559
Speaker 4: So it's a little sort of sort of sort of

1511
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 4: grungey looking, and so and so forth. That's what really

1512
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 4: think is our job.

1513
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:47,360
Speaker 6: We're not we're not doing a documentary. But if you

1514
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 6: as much as the creators will listen, I'll give you enough.

1515
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 4: Material so that.

1516
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 6: If if someone watching it digs a little bit, they'll

1517
01:10:57,200 --> 01:10:59,800
Speaker 6: find there's more there there. It isn't sort of first

1518
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:02,800
Speaker 6: Night and the whole falls apart, So you will see

1519
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:07,560
Speaker 6: you know, the character Jason go writing through his notebooks

1520
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 6: at some point where talking about the original design of

1521
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:10,639
Speaker 6: the box.

1522
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:14,519
Speaker 4: That is full of equations that I gave them, and

1523
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 4: that's real uh quantum physics.

1524
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:21,599
Speaker 6: I had some friends of mine who actually do real

1525
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:27,160
Speaker 6: quantum information experiments where they try and create superposition states

1526
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 6: in quantum devices, because these are important for building quantum computers. Right,

1527
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 6: those are the same pieces of science that that character

1528
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:40,920
Speaker 6: would be doing, but rid large in.

1529
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 4: Order to make this box. So you know, I had

1530
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 4: notes of my own that borrowed some of their notes

1531
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:48,120
Speaker 4: with their permission, and that's all you've seen Jason's note book.

1532
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 4: So that those are examples of the things.

1533
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:53,759
Speaker 6: That that we worked on at the level of the show.

1534
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 4: Other than of the book, we'd already been.

1535
01:11:57,040 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 6: Thinking about trying to give a reality quote unquote to

1536
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:06,240
Speaker 6: what would be like when you're inside the box, when

1537
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:12,799
Speaker 6: you're in because now this is no fantasy Blake's wonderful

1538
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:17,760
Speaker 6: idea of having some sort of drug that turns off

1539
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:23,640
Speaker 6: the observer effect, whatever that means. That's based on actual

1540
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 6: experiments that people are thinking about right or have been doing,

1541
01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:34,439
Speaker 6: trying to understand the role of quantum mechanics in the

1542
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:40,040
Speaker 6: workings of the brain, quantum mechanics in perception of what

1543
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:45,400
Speaker 6: we how we construct reality of the physical world, in

1544
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:48,439
Speaker 6: terms of interacting quantum mechanically with the world.

1545
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:51,240
Speaker 4: To what extent there's our brain chemistry have anything to

1546
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:51,720
Speaker 4: do with that.

1547
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:55,040
Speaker 6: I think the answer to the questions is nobody knows.

1548
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:58,200
Speaker 6: The fact that it's unknown, it's fun to play with

1549
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 6: and it gives the writer lots of places down well. Congratulations,

1550
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:05,960
Speaker 6: and so you've seen the show and you please without

1551
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 6: a key out. Yeah, I've been, so I'm most of

1552
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 6: the way through now.

1553
01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:14,360
Speaker 4: I think there's maybe a couple of episodes I haven't seen.

1554
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:17,680
Speaker 6: And i've been, although you know i've you know, I

1555
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:19,840
Speaker 6: read every script and worked at any script and worked

1556
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:22,679
Speaker 6: at all the different departments. It was officially long ago

1557
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:25,679
Speaker 6: that and of course I hadn't seen how it really

1558
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:30,400
Speaker 6: it's been great to see how these how it's come

1559
01:13:30,439 --> 01:13:33,160
Speaker 6: out overall as a show tonally, which I think is

1560
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 6: primarily the most important things to get right in the

1561
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 6: total of the show. I think it really they really

1562
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 6: nailed it, and such a strong cast, a great direction.

1563
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 6: It's a great collection of directors. They got, some of

1564
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 6: whom I had spoken with early on and we were talking.

1565
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 4: About various aspects of the show. So I'm very pleased.

1566
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:57,120
Speaker 4: I'm very impressed.

1567
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:00,280
Speaker 6: For me, it's a win win from the point of

1568
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:03,599
Speaker 6: view of a science advisor who's interested in getting people

1569
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:06,559
Speaker 6: engaged in science, because there's a feeling, you know, from

1570
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:11,240
Speaker 6: episode one two, right, there are millions of people watching

1571
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 6: this thing, and after they turn off this episode, they're

1572
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:18,320
Speaker 6: talking about strolling up, they're talking about Heisenberg and talking

1573
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:20,360
Speaker 6: about uncertainty.

1574
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 4: They're talking about all these things that I usually thought

1575
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 4: of is about as.

1576
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:27,920
Speaker 6: Obscure as you can get in science. This is out

1577
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 6: there in the TV show about prime Time. That's fantastic.

1578
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:34,680
Speaker 6: So I've been I've been very happy with that. And

1579
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 6: you know, this, I think wouldn't have happened without writers

1580
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:44,120
Speaker 6: like Blake who get excited about science and then.

1581
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:47,799
Speaker 4: Do this great job writing great stories builds around the science,

1582
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:48,920
Speaker 4: which is really what it's about.

1583
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,360
Speaker 1: Well, fantastic work, and I agree it's important to have

1584
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 1: science out there, and science any stories, and science can

1585
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:58,320
Speaker 1: really enable so many fascinating stories. And if your goal

1586
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 1: was to contribute to the story and to open the

1587
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 1: space that they could explore and give some plausible credibility

1588
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:06,760
Speaker 1: without feeling like red pin and pissing them off, I

1589
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: think you've done that. I just spoke to Jacqueline ben

1590
01:15:09,479 --> 01:15:13,240
Speaker 1: Zechery right actually said quote tell Clifford, I love him.

1591
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 1: I think it pretty well.

1592
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:18,240
Speaker 4: For it was.

1593
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:22,599
Speaker 6: It was one of the most fun and fulfilling science

1594
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:25,240
Speaker 6: advising and collaborative experiences I've ever had. And you know,

1595
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:27,439
Speaker 6: I've done some good ones. I've done some really good

1596
01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:29,840
Speaker 6: ones also with some of the some of the Marvel

1597
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:33,639
Speaker 6: people has a great one coming up which I've been

1598
01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 6: having got fun with. And I'm hoping that you know,

1599
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:39,559
Speaker 6: this is a new standard.

1600
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 14: Yeah, that we can that we that we can convince

1601
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:46,960
Speaker 14: the filmmakers the entertainment industry to aspire to you where

1602
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 14: you really collaborate with scientists to.

1603
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 6: Find new ways at very least right from the point

1604
01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:56,960
Speaker 6: of view of just selling stories. Yeah, it's it's a

1605
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,400
Speaker 6: great way to just find new ways of telling the

1606
01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:00,679
Speaker 6: same old story, which is great.

1607
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:02,640
Speaker 1: We only tell a few stories as a species, We

1608
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:03,759
Speaker 1: just tell them always.

1609
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 6: Science is a great way to find new ways, and

1610
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:10,240
Speaker 6: so this is a great example of that.

1611
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:12,160
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks again for taking a few minutes

1612
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 1: a chat. That's really appreciate it my session.

1613
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 5: All right, pretty cool, Daniel. Have you ever considered being

1614
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 5: a scientific advisor for a TV show or something like that?

1615
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 5: Has anyone approached you?

1616
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:23,679
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, absolutely. I would love to be a science

1617
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 1: advisor on anybody's project. And people actually email me their

1618
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,880
Speaker 1: stories all the time asking me for advice, and I

1619
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:32,200
Speaker 1: give it to them. I just talked last week to

1620
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 1: a team doing a science fiction horror show asking me

1621
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:38,080
Speaker 1: for plausible explanations for the story they wanted.

1622
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:42,800
Speaker 5: Ooh interesting. Can you give any spoilers or did you

1623
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:43,879
Speaker 5: have to sign an nda?

1624
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:46,719
Speaker 1: I didn't sign an nda, but I think they would

1625
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 1: not like me to give away their story on the pod.

1626
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 1: But if they do get to produce it, and we'll

1627
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:53,360
Speaker 1: definitely talk about it on the podcast, that would be fun.

1628
01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 1: And so I want to encourage all the science fiction

1629
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:58,639
Speaker 1: writers out there thinks deeply about how the universe might work,

1630
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 1: create new universes for us, and think about what it's

1631
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 1: like to live in them.

1632
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:05,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, because it's an amazing universe, and who knows how

1633
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:09,559
Speaker 5: it will end up or get written up in Wikipedia.

1634
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 1: Or he might not stick around to hear the end

1635
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:13,080
Speaker 1: of the universe. He's just going to read it on Wikipedia.

1636
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:14,280
Speaker 1: But I'll be there with you.

1637
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:17,840
Speaker 5: I'll read it after the universe ends, so we'll save

1638
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 5: me a few trillion years hopefully. All Right. Well, we

1639
01:17:20,439 --> 01:17:23,559
Speaker 5: hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, See you

1640
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 5: next time.

1641
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:32,400
Speaker 1: For more science and curiosity. Come find us on social media,

1642
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:37,040
Speaker 1: where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discord, Instant,

1643
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:40,719
Speaker 1: and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel

1644
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:44,200
Speaker 1: and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio.

1645
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:49,640
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1646
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you

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01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:06,439
Speaker 9: That big brain of hers is going to help us

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