WEBVTT - The Economics of Golf Course Construction (feat. Bruce Hepner) 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.920 One of the biggest problems facing the golf course industry 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:07.360 today is the rising cost of construction, the cost of 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:11.760 building new courses, and the cost of renovating existing ones. 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:17.120 Especially since twenty twenty, these expenses have gone way up 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:20.480 and have ultimately been passed on to the golfer, most 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:24.239 obviously in the form of higher green fees, but also 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:27.840 more subtly in the way that the industry as a 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:32.720 whole has moved toward the high end, toward pricey resorts 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:37.120 and exclusive clubs. So I thought it was time to 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:41.519 talk about the economics of golf course construction, about what 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:45.239 it takes to build a golf course affordably in a 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:50.239 time where everything seems to be unaffordable. My guest is 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:54.480 Bruce Hepner, a long time golf architect who has recently 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:58.760 taken on some surprisingly low cost projects and who have 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:03.280 some fascinating thoughts about where golf architecture as a whole 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:07.839 is headed. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is designing golf. 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.760 What do the different components of a golf course construction 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:22.440 project cost, or really what should they cost? I get 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:26.280 asked versions of this question all the time, and honestly 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.360 there's no good answer because every project is different, but 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.800 we can definitely talk about the general economics of golf 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.920 course construction, and a little later we'll discuss three excellent 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.319 modern golf courses that were built on low budgets and 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.920 are still affordable to play. Now, this might seem like 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.520 a funny topic to take on right after the Masters, 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:53.600 given that most people would not associate Augusta National with 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:58.920 economical golf course construction or maintenance. But actually Augusta National 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:03.080 did begin its life life as an experiment in what 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:07.480 its co designer Alistair McKenzie called the economy of golf 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:13.040 course construction. Famously, the course originally had just twenty two bunkers, 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.440 and it also had very simple agronomy, just one cut 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.760 for the fairways and one cut for the greens. For 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:24.840 most of his career, McKenzie was obsessed with this idea 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:29.640 of economy and construction because for him, saving money in 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:34.720 building courses was not just a nice benefit for his clients. 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:39.400 He thought that it actually produced better golf courses. So 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:43.320 let's start with a few things that mackenzie repeatedly emphasized 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:49.440 in talking about this subject. One he was insistent on 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:53.800 the importance of hiring a capable golf architect. Now, in 0:02:53.800 --> 0:03:00.480 one sense this was self serving, but in another completely indisputable. Sperienced, 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:05.679 qualified architect can definitely help you avoid costly mistakes in 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:12.000 the future. Two Mackenzie was an avid proponent of saving 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:16.520 money by working with the natural landscape instead of against it, 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:21.280 choosing sites that were already well adapted to golf, and 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.359 routing the course so that you didn't need a lot 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:28.800 of large scale earth moving to create the holes. Three 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:34.640 he advocated for minimizing bunkers and other artificial hazards. I 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.160 will say he did not always practice this, but he 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.520 did at Augusta National, so at least there's that. Four 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:48.080 Mackenzie was all about using modern labor saving technology. If 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.400 there was something a machine could do just as well 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:55.160 as manual labor, he wasn't a romantic about it. He 0:03:55.320 --> 0:04:01.120 was fine with mechanizing certain tasks. Lastly, Mackenzie spoke a 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:05.880 lot about achieving what he called finality in golf course construction, 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.680 in other words, designing and building the course well enough 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.040 so that it wouldn't have to be changed in the future. 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.960 And this is where Mackenzie makes it clear that economy 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:21.800 in construction is not just about saving money during the 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:27.680 building process itself. It's about heading off future expenses, and 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.360 this might sometimes involve spending a little more right now 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.520 in order to avoid spending a lot down the line. 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:37.520 So it's a balance. There are things that you need 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:41.160 to invest in like a good architect, and there are 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.160 things that you don't need to overspend on. So one 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.279 of the major tasks for a course developer or a 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:52.640 green committee is to distinguish the smart investments from the 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:57.640 unnecessary ones, the needs versus the bells and whistles. All right, 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.640 let's bring this to the present day and about the 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:05.040 economics of modern golf course construction. Now we're setting aside 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:09.479 for the moment, pre construction costs, which would include purchasing 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.599 the land and getting planning and permitting taken care of, 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:16.440 clearly a major expense, but not what our focus is today. 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.920 What are the biggest line items in a golf course 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:25.640 construction budget. I have to start with irrigation. You would 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.880 be shocked at how expensive it is to install a 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:34.760 modern top of the line irrigation system. That alone typically 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.400 accounts for somewhere in the range of a quarter to 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:42.360 a third of an entire construction budget, so irrigation that 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:48.520 is the albatross of any golf course project. Another huge 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:53.839 expense is large scale earth moving and site preparation. Basically, 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.920 this is about adapting a site to golf, making sure 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:03.480 it's walkable, graspable, that it drains. So obviously, this cost 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.919 is lower for properties that are already well suited to 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.839 the game, and that's why this is a very dynamic category. 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.560 It's often the reason that a project costs either way 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:18.920 more or way less than you would anticipate. A few 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.400 other notable expenses would be bunkers, especially when you factor 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:26.919 in ongoing maintenance. If you decide to put in USGA 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:30.760 spec or subair under your green, that can get pricey. 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:36.680 Cart paths sometimes cost millions of dollars by themselves. And finally, 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.800 kind of interacting with all of the above, you have labor, 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.880 who's on site and what are they doing? Now. I'm 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.599 sure you can see at this point how golf course 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.919 construction budgets can spiral out of control. There's just so 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.440 much that needs to get done, So how do you 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:59.680 cut through the noise and identify the needs versus the 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:04.920 bell and whistles. Let's talk about three modern US golf 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:09.240 courses that I think did exactly that. These courses were 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:14.680 built very affordably and can still be played for reasonable rates. First, 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:19.080 Wildhorse Golf Club in Nebraska, wonderful golf course built by 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.560 Dave Axland and Dan Procter in nineteen ninety nine. The 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:26.040 total cost of establishing the club was somewhere around one 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.440 point three million, and the construction of the course itself 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.119 came in under a million. The single biggest line item 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:36.320 in the budget was the irrigation system. You won't find 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.680 that surprising. I've heard that it costs somewhere in the 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.120 range of six hundred thousand dollars by itself, so that's 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:45.480 where they made their huge investment. But aside from that, 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:48.760 the course was built for just a few hundred thousand dollars, 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.440 and in my opinion, it is the best non resort 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:57.560 public course in the United States. Next up, Rustic Canyon 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:01.800 Golf Course, designed by Gilhan's Jim Wagner and Jeff Shackelford. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.080 This is one of the best golf courses you can 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:08.320 play in Southern California, public or private, and the cost 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.320 of constructing the course itself was three million. In two 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.320 thousand and two. About four hundred thousand of that went 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.760 to the cart paths, which the developer wanted but the 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.800 architects were a bit chagrined about. But in all other 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:26.600 areas the design team used a very light touch. They 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:31.120 ended up moving only about seventeen thousand cubic yards of dirt. 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.960 And just to put that in perspective, when Mike Strantz 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:38.880 built Tobacco Road Golf Club in North Carolina in nineteen 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:43.360 ninety eight, he moved around five hundred thousand cubic yards. 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.760 So you know, you can see how the earth moving 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:51.199 and site preparation part of the budget can be really 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.319 low or really high depending on the quality of the 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.600 land and the intent of the architect. Now, if you're 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.600 interested in the full story behind Rustic Camion, Jeff Shackelford 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.720 goes into great detail about it in his book Grounds 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.240 for Golf. Grounds for Golf has been out of print 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.160 for a while and a little bit hard to get, 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.280 but it's being republished on June fifteenth this year, so 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.760 make sure to check that out. Okay, last project I 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:21.240 want to talk about is Diamond Springs Golf Course in Hamilton, Michigan. 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:25.360 Diamond Springs was designed by Chris Schumacher and Mike Devrees 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.199 in two thousand and two, and they were really innovative 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:32.280 in the way they set this course up for low 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:36.880 cost maintenance in the future. Diamond Springs has old fashioned 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.640 single row irrigation in the fairways, so the sprinkler heads 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:42.920 just go right down the center of the whole corridors, 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.880 and like the original Augusta National, there are two heights 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.920 of cut fairway and green. Both of these factors allow 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:55.959 for simple, efficient, affordable maintenance, and it's a terrific golf 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.960 course that anyone can play for sixty dollars at most. 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:06.679 So three projects, Wildhorse, Rustic Canyon, and Diamond Springs, what 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.120 do they all have in common? One they started with 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:14.280 properties that were already well suited to golf. All three 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:19.440 had sandy soils and good natural undulation. The Wildhorse property 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:23.640 was basically perfect. Rustic Canyon was a little more complicated 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:26.959 because it was environmentally sensitive, but a great site for golf, 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:31.400 so good land in all three cases. The second thing 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.600 these projects have in common is that they were directed 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.240 by excellent golf architects who had plenty of experience but 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.560 were still on their way up so they were not 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:46.400 expensive to hire. Three. Those architects were devoted to minimalism 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:50.240 and the design build method. They wanted to work with 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.680 the natural landscape, they wanted to minimize artificial hazards, and 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.720 when they did move dirt, they wanted to do it themselves. 0:10:58.720 --> 0:10:58.960 Four. 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.520 In each of the projects, there was what I would 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:06.760 describe as a remarkable lack of ego in what they 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:11.520 were setting out to accomplish. They weren't going for the photogenic, 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:16.080 all green, everywhere turf presentation. They weren't trying to build 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.680 a top one hundred golf course, though in the case 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.560 of Wildhorse, I would argue that they got there anyway, 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.920 but that was not the intent. They were just trying 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:29.200 to build good golf at a reasonable price, and that 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:34.320 attitude is unfortunately pretty rare in today's golf course industry. 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.240 Keep in mind that all three courses I just talked 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:43.040 about opened between nineteen ninety nine in two thousand and two. 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:48.880 Those kinds of projects, new build projects built affordably are 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:53.679 just not happening very often right now. One big reason 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:55.760 for that is that the cost of everything has gone 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.480 way up. But I do believe there has also been 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:04.760 a shift in philosophy. I think we've become much more 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:10.160 interested in trying to match the splendor of Alistair Mackenzie's 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:15.880 courses and less interested in following his advice on economy 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:20.560 and construction, and that I think is a problem for 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.440 the future of the game. Now, to talk about that 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.240 issue a little more in depth, I'm going to bring 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.559 on the golf architect Bruce Hepner. Bruce got his start 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.559 in the industry working for ron Force and Tom Doak. 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.280 He worked on some incredible dok projects, including bally Neil 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:40.280 and Cape Kidnappers, and he also developed a specialty in gradual, 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:45.200 sensitive restorations of classic courses like Essex County Club and 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:49.320 Cape Arundle. Recently, Bruce has done a lot of work 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:54.760 on public courses. He's helping to revitalize several municipal facilities 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.280 in Nashville, Tennessee, and he also carried out a major 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:02.560 renovation of Miami Lakes Golf Club in Florida last year. 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:05.640 He has a bunch of interesting things to say about 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.640 economy and construction and what he sees as the excesses 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.560 of modern golf architecture. So let's go to my conversation 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:24.240 with Bruce Hepner. So, Bruce, you told me when we 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.240 chatted a couple of days ago that you have been 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.640 playing a little bit more golf lately. How's that going? 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.880 The scores aren't going down, but I'm kind of taking 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:37.880 a year or so off. I don't have any projects 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.280 till fall at twenty seven. So I told my wife, 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.400 I'm like, you know, I play that crap forever. I'm like, 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:45.760 I want to kind of dedicate this year to playing 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.280 golf and taking Lasson's, hitting balls indoors every day. And 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:52.880 just got back from Florida. Played two weeks of golf 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.240 down there. So it's just just fun to get out 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.079 and play, see new golf courses. I've seen a lot 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.760 of the new ones being built in Florida, but also 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.400 playing and reintroducing myself to my golf clubs. 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:06.760 What did you see down there? 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:13.080 Saw may Aka mm hmm, the Big danea fry striker striker, 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:17.120 Yeah right, yeah, just insane, just the biggest thing. I've 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:19.520 just gonna push Shadow Creek, the shade. 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:21.960 They moved a lot of a lot of dirt out there. 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:27.280 As elevation changed. Danis. I think they remember say they 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:29.960 dug one hundred and thirty acre leg fifty feet deep 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.160 and ran out of dirt, so they had to build 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:37.600 more lakes. It's it's amazing to create that kind of 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.560 a landscape out of your brain. Is somebody's brain is 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.840 just beyond my scope of what I've ever done. I 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:48.240 saw David's new course, David Kid's new course at streams On, 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.880 which is super cool. And then I went up to 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:58.600 Aiken and saw Brian and Blake's new the Gilroy had 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.800 under construction. That's gonna be really cool. 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.000 Yeah, it's the second eighteen whole course at Old Barnwell. 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:06.880 Yeah. Then New Holland. I walked the routing at New 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.600 Holland which Brian's doing ray across the street from the 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.640 tree Farm. Also an Ache and that's gonna be something 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.840 really cool. Wow, the rut it's just laying there. 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:17.840 Yeah. 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:19.680 So yeah, there's some good stuff being built out there. 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.480 So, Bruce, the main topic I wanted to tackle with 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:27.680 you today is what Alisair McKenzie called economy in golf 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:32.720 course construction, which is to say, building golf courses as 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:38.120 efficiently and affordably as possible without sacrificing quality. And this 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.240 is as big of an issue as it ever has been, 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.400 because everything about golf course construction has started to take 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:48.359 longer and cost more in the past few years. Nonetheless, 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:52.360 you yourself have taken on a number of projects whereas 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:56.680 I understand it, economy has been a priority. First of all, 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.280 a series of renovations for the municipal Golf cyte them 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:04.120 in Nashville, Tennessee, and then just last year a big 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:08.520 overhaul of a public golf facility called Miami Lakes Golf 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:12.120 Club in Florida. Was there something that that caused you 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.600 to take on these kinds of projects at this point 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.280 in your career or was it just sort of happenstance 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:19.760 that they came along at this time? 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.440 It was a perfect timing for me. You know, I've built, 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.840 you know, courses all over the world, but you know, 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.560 you're working for Tom. We were still budget conscious. You know, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.320 he came from Pete and Pete. Pete was budget conscious, 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.760 so you know, we built Pacific Dudes and bally Neil 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:38.800 for a fraction of what renovations costs nowadays, So that 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.720 just carried over. You know, I grew up playing about 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.160 public golf courses, Caddie. You know, I wasn't a country 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:49.160 club kids, so, you know, and specifically Nashville it hit 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:51.760 the tone because there was just no there's no new 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.320 seats at the table, there's no new golf courses being built. 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:58.680 There's one, but it's super private, and the only place 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.560 people could play were public golf courses and they've kind 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:03.720 of gone in disrepair, just like any city. You know, 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.119 I grew up in Detroit, played Rackham. That's where I 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:11.960 grew up playing. And you know, any city metropolitan system 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.800 is usually that's the lowest priority right now. You know, 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.199 with the economy of it's gone, not a lot of 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:20.400 money is being sunk. And in some of these are 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.720 really good gems. You know, Rackham was a great ross 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:28.439 golf course. Yeah, so every every metropolitan area has these 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.120 and they're just going in disrepair, and you know, people 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:32.760 are playing the heck out of them, but there's just 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:37.199 not much money supporting him. So you know, that's what 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.880 got me interested. It's untapped, you know that, And that's 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.359 where golf starts. That's where most of us learn how 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.320 to play. Majority of golfers play public golf courses. They 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.760 don't carry handicap even they just play golf. They gone 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.959 and play golf, drink beer and have fun. So it's 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.440 it's kind of been pushed to the wayside, and and uh, 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:59.400 you know, I'm pretty comfortable. Yeah, I could retire right now, 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:01.640 I say, my money, but this is kind of fun. 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:03.560 It's the way I can give back to the game 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.400 in my little way is to is promote this first 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.320 tea programs, Kaddy. You know Evan scholarship programs. You know, 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:13.760 common Ground is great. They have that kind of pre 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.359 Evan scholarship program out there. So there's a lot of 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:21.000 little hubs that are starting this. You know John's, you know, 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.159 the Ashworths, the Goat Hill. You know. San Antonio has 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:28.359 an insanely good public golf system where the money stays 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.000 in the golf. They probably are the leaders in the country. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:35.320 A guy named Jim Rochik is heading that up and 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:37.320 we're going to use him as a consultant in Nashville 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.960 how to figure out how to do this without spending 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.040 a lot of money, but keeping the money in the golf. 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:45.800 Donalds fort Worth does a really good job too. It 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.919 seems like there are a few Texas megalopolis that are 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:51.600 that are kind of getting some of this right. At 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:53.720 the moment, and actually you know, a memorial park in 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.080 Houston as well as for example, you know, hopefully an 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.800 indicator of where things are going there as well. Yeah, 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.960 and these projects kind of require something different from an architect, 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:07.080 which is what I'm interested in speaking with you about. 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:09.640 And maybe as an example, we can dig into your 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.399 work at Miami Lakes specifically. Now, this is not a 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:17.200 municipal golf course. It is a privately owned public golf 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.320 course that has traditionally been affordable, especially for people in 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:24.640 the immediate area. And so you know, it's a kind 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.680 of project that we don't see a lot of these days. 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:28.960 In fact, you know, the kind of mid range daily 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:33.080 fee course has sort of gone away in favor of 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:35.680 a lot more action at the high end for both 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:40.560 private clubs and public resorts. So Miami Lakes, just for context, 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.719 is a public course in Florida. It's about fifteen miles 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:48.879 north of Miami. And I've heard that the way you 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.199 became involved in this project has something to do with 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:54.359 the last time you and I talked on a podcast. 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:56.480 Actually it was a couple of years ago when I 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.000 brought you on to talk about Nashville, your work in Nashville, 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.159 among other things. So what is that story? How did 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:03.920 you become involved? 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.440 I get an email, blind email from Danny Martinez's part 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:14.040 of the grand family that basically they don't own Miami Lakes, 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.359 but they founded it. The grandfather founded that. You know, 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:18.639 the community. It's a beautiful community, and they had a 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.639 golf course. And he heard the podcast you and I 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.280 talking about public Golf, so he blindly emailed me with 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.080 a pretty good letter that was quite compelling. I'm like, 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.080 you know, I'll give him a call, because I get 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.119 emails like this three four times a week. I go, 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:36.720 I'll call him and chat them up and see if 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.560 I got him in the right direction. And three hours later, 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.040 he's telling me everything. You know. I was waiting for 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.080 him to tell me something so I could hang up, 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.240 and he kept telling me all the right things. You know, 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.840 public golf, the first tea program, his grandfather. You know, 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:54.360 he grew up playing there. It's a part of the community, 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.640 kids played for free. You know. He was clicking all 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.840 the boxes. I'm like, oh, okay, I'll come down. I 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:05.000 was going to come down and play golf a timcqwan 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:07.199 and Jacksonville anyway, So I'm like, I'll just drive down 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:09.919 to the rest of the way, spend a day with you, 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.920 check your golf course out, and met the grand family. 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:20.119 They're beautiful people, just humble and just everything clicked and 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:22.960 I walked the golf course. The routing was pretty good. 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:25.720 The back nine was just inundated, flooded. They didn't even 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:29.040 have irrigation on a couple holes just because the water 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:33.600 table was two inches blowing to the surface. So I 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:35.760 kind of I'm like, you know, I think I could. 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:38.440 I think I could fix this. Let me think about 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:40.560 it and let me build the team. So I called 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:43.280 him Mecure Golf out of Jacksonville, which I've worked over 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:45.960 a lot. Talk to them. They kind of fell in 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:47.760 love with the project. We were able to pick the 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:51.520 right irrigation designer, and I said, well, if I build 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:53.720 the right team, he let us do what we're good at. 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.439 I'm interested and Danny supported us one hundred percent. 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:03.399 So what were the the most important goals of the 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:05.840 plan for the renovation that you ended up coming up with. 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.320 Well, it was a lot of engineering. It was dead flat, 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:12.040 you know, it was typical Florida dead flat. Any dirt 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:14.359 that they used, they build the greens up twenty feet 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:16.920 up out of the ground or putting mounds on each 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:19.560 side of the fairway. There was no contours in the fairway, 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:22.160 so it was a drainage nightmare. In the back nine 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:24.960 really had to be lifted three feet out of three 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.280 to four feet out of the ground to keep it 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:31.879 from flooding. Every rain event, the water would back up 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:33.920 and wouldn't go into the canal and it would just fled. 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:36.640 They couldn't play the back nine basically. So a lot 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:40.520 of it was engineering, but you know, it wasn't going 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:43.119 to stop me from making something cool at the same time. 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:47.560 So the basic thought was what I wanted to do 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:49.320 was build something it looked like it was built in 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.400 nineteen thirty, like Flynn or something back in those Florida 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:56.160 days when Flynn and Langford and those guys were building courses, 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:59.160 you know, rainer at that time. I wanted to build 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:03.000 something to look like that, which meant it was wallawall grass. Yeah, 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:05.400 I'm kind of I'm kind of over the I call 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:08.320 it the native oars. Yeah, of course, you see now 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:11.320 it's get the sandy native stuff. You spend more time 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:14.160 in there than making the golf course good. So I said, 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:16.399 we're going to just take that off the board, walda 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:20.280 wall grass, make it wide. You know. Luckily, your grandfather 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:22.760 when you routed that golf course gave us a really 0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:25.200 wide corridor, so the house has never come into play. 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.280 There's only houses on a few of the holes, so 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:30.479 it gave me ample room to play with it and 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:34.200 minimal number of bunkers, like fifty bunkers. I use them 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:38.880 judiciously where they really impacted a lot of t shots. 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:42.159 Just create a lot of contour in the fairways to 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:46.800 create interesting lies on your you know, on your a 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:52.320 pro shots, build great greens. And the goal was, you know, 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:55.719 at one time, back in the sixties, seventies and eighties, 0:23:55.760 --> 0:23:57.879 that was the hip place to hang out Miamu Lakes 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:01.440 golf courses where all the dolphins lived. Shula's Steakhouse was 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:04.320 his first steakhouses there. He lived on site, so it 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:08.680 was kind of the happening place for public golf celebrities. 0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:11.720 You know. I brought in Kay Goldby to help me 0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:14.760 build the greens. His dad had played in an event there. Kai, 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:17.040 I think caddied for him, So one time it was 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:19.880 the cool place in Miami. So we wanted to create 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:22.160 that vibe again. It's also the home of the first 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:27.800 tea program Kids Play for Free. Charlie Duluca runs that project. 0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:32.560 His grandfather started the project on a Saturday morning. They'll 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:35.440 have one hundred and eighty kids, some of special needs, 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:37.399