1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. In late May, I 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: spoke with Stephanie Kelly Romano, an associate professor of Rhetoric, 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: Film and Screen Studies at Bates College in Lewiston, Maine. 5 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: She has conducted research into alien abduction narratives, having collected 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: stories from over three people who believe they have had 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: abduction experiences and examining these accounts for common themes and 8 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,959 Speaker 1: what they can tell us about issues of control, rights, reality, identity, 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: and power in our society. I'm Toby Ball, and this 10 00:00:46,240 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: is Strange Arrivals. I am Stephanie Kelly Romano. I'm an 11 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: associate professor of Rhetoric, Film, and Screen Studies at Bates College. 12 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: And for my dissertation research, I interviewed people who thought 13 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: they had been obducted by aliens. So what what kind 14 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: of caused you to be interested in that particular subject. Yeah, 15 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: that's a question I get a lot. I became interested 16 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: in this because, truthfully, when I was in graduate school, 17 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: I was watching The X Files and I really liked 18 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: the X Files. And when you're in graduate school, you 19 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: don't have a lot of extra time to do things 20 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: that you like, unless it's part of your research. Additionally, 21 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily want to just look at speeches of 22 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: like dead presidents, and so I started looking at the 23 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: X Files and conspiracy rhetoric, and of course there's the 24 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: whole theme about the abduction and Molder sister, and so 25 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: then I got interested in people who think they've been 26 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: abducted or claim experiences with extraterrestrials, and how do they 27 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: carve out space for themselves and legitimacy, right, Like, how 28 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: does that happen? I found when I was doing this 29 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: that there seems like there might be kind of a 30 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: feedback loop in between the X files and and the 31 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: population at large. Did do you have that perception that 32 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: you know, the X files obviously uses, you know, the 33 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: stuff that that Bud Hopkins at all have done to 34 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,119 Speaker 1: kind of create this narrative, but then all these people 35 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: who get to see it, and it seems like the uh, 36 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: the instances of supposed abduction somebody to have an uptick. Um. Yeah, 37 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: I don't know if there's any type of uh correlation 38 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: in terms of the uptick and things like that. I 39 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: do know that, like, even I think it was Martin 40 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: Codomier did an article about Barney Hill and that episode 41 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: of the Outer Limits the Balero Shield and whether or 42 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: not there was a correlation or association there. So, like 43 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: the imprinting of cultural texts and the chicken or the 44 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,399 Speaker 1: egg argument, you know, like which came first? I don't know, um, 45 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: but I do know that with the X Files, what's 46 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: really interesting, or the piece that I really look at, 47 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: is so in pop culture, we have certain characterizations of 48 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial experiences and experiencers, right, and we have them not 49 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: only in the X Files but all kinds. People of 50 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: Earth was a recent sitcom about an alien abduction support 51 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: group that drew on those same tropes of abduction. What 52 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: I find interesting is that people who claim experiences with 53 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: extraterrestrials don't always have those same themes and tropes. But 54 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: people who are interested in the phenomenon but don't have 55 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: the experiences do so general pop culture. Like my students 56 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: when they come to my class and I say, what 57 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: do you know about alien abduction? They tell me all 58 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: the things that have been on the X Files or 59 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: in Steven Spielberg movies or whatever. But people who have 60 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: had actual encounters have a tendency to be a little 61 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: bit more distanced from that. Why don't you tell me 62 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: about the study that I guess form the basis for 63 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: your dissertation, and then um, several papers that I've read, right, So, So, 64 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: like I said, when I started this, I just I 65 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: wanted to study something in graduate school that I found interesting. 66 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: When you're getting work, when you're getting ready to do 67 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: doctoral work and to write a dissertation, you're going to 68 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: be studying it for years, literally, like this is going 69 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: to be the beginning of my career, and so I 70 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: thought this would be an interesting thing that would keep 71 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: my attention. I had no idea, I had no idea 72 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:58,799 Speaker 1: how big it was. Um, I came to it very underinformed. 73 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: And so when I first started this, the questions that 74 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: I asked people who thought they had had these experiences 75 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: were very simple. They're they're open ended narrative questions because 76 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: I am a rhetorical scholar, so I studied myth. I 77 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: studied narrative and study the way that people use language 78 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: to make sense of their lives and who they are 79 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: right their actual identity. So the questions were really open 80 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: ended because I just wanted people to talk about their experiences. 81 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: And then I also went to some conferences. I went 82 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: most notably to the Leo Sprinkles conference out in Wyoming 83 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: because I did my graduate work in Kansas, so it 84 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: was close by. I also solicited people on the internet 85 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: I had. I was on various message boards. I got 86 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: in touch with several different researchers and also UM therapists 87 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: who work with populations of experiencers, and they would hand 88 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: out the survey anonymously. The survey was anonymous UM, and 89 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: they would hand it out and then I would collect them. 90 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: So after I first I got my first way back, 91 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: I realized how many questions I also needed to ask 92 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: right in addition, and several people were super good, I 93 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: mean amazing, amazing people in terms of answering my follow 94 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: up questions as I kind of learned what it was 95 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: I needed to know in order to answer my research questions. 96 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: So there were several people who would answer each time 97 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: I would send out another query UM. And then the 98 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: instrument grew little by little until I had a pretty 99 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: decent instrument to capture kind of the experience and how 100 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: people attributed it and what people thought of different aspects 101 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: of it. UM and then once I had all that. 102 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: I mean I have I have hundreds. I have over 103 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: three hundred people now who claim experience is And as 104 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: you probably know, most people who have an experience have 105 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: more than one. Most people that I've spoken with or 106 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: communicated with have been have had experiences since the time 107 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: they were a young child, over the course of their 108 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: lives for many years. So each experiencer might have two 109 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: three experiences that we have talked about or they've described 110 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: to me of where of where corresponded about. Um So 111 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: I have a humongous repository of information and then I 112 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: just look at it with different questions over the years. 113 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: I've been doing this now for twenty five years, and 114 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: so when different things happen oftentimes in the world, I'll say, 115 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, how does this relate? How does this go on? 116 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: And so for example, right now, UM, I just recently 117 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: did a program about coronavirus conspiracies, and on it we 118 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: were kind of talking about how science can be used 119 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: in order to prove non scientific or pseudos scientific things 120 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: like how do methods of research and gathering information gain legitimacy, 121 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: And it immediately made me think about alien abduction discourse, 122 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: and uh, David Jacobs and John mac and the various 123 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: things that they say in order to kind of co 124 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: opt the discourse of scientific legitimacy while at the same 125 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: time critiquing it. Right. So it's it's this tension that 126 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: goes on and so um. Over the years, I've just 127 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: kind of looked at race or gender or implants or 128 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: truth or whatever is interesting to me when you're getting 129 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: things back from people. How much does the believability of 130 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: the experience the reality of the experience, How important is 131 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: that or is that just not important at all? You know? 132 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: Truth is probably one of the biggest questions that I 133 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: grapple with that constantly, is underneath whatever questions we are 134 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: asking of extraterrestrial existence, experience, interaction, right um. And I 135 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: really like the distinction between something being true and something 136 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: being real. Right. So, I do not know the truth 137 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: of an experience, whether or not it empirically happened in 138 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: this reality in another reality. I have no idea. I 139 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: do not know, and that's not my area. I don't 140 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: have the means by which to evaluate that. I do 141 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: know that the criteria that I use is whether or 142 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: not these people believe these experiences to be real. If 143 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: they are real for them in the sense that they 144 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: have consequence in their life, then I care about it, right. 145 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: So it's very much similar to any type of faithful discourse. 146 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: I I don't necessarily know if God is true, but 147 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: for me personally, God is real, right, So so that 148 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: distinction is one that I make. It's very hard for 149 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: me and I try very much to avoid making any 150 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: type of evaluations about which experiences are true, because this 151 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: is a phenomenon that we don't know things about UM 152 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: and David Jacobs talks about it in the beginning of 153 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: UM I think It's Secret Life, where he talks about 154 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: the fact that now he can kind of intuitively sense 155 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: which accounts are true and are in line with other 156 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: abduction narratives. But my problem is that as a culture, 157 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: as a society, as people, we naturally fill in our 158 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: stories so that they move toward other people. There's this 159 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: reciprocal thing that happens because we're building relationships, and so 160 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: that UM, that tendency to adhere is something that I 161 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: always think about in terms of truth, is it true 162 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: or is it not? And so I just deal with 163 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: what's real and if it's real. For the people who 164 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: claim to have experience, then I include them. I also 165 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: do do some kind of cross checking of narrative elements 166 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: and consistency, right, make sure that the stories that they're 167 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: telling me have coherence and fidelity insofar as they can 168 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: remain consistent over time. Um. But of course, what that 169 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: does is that then eliminates anyone who does not want 170 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: to be contacted again, who wants to remain entirely anonymous, 171 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: or those people who don't contact me, right, And those, 172 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: of course are the people I want to talk to, 173 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 1: people who have had experiences who don't tell anyone. Um. 174 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: But it's it's hard because we only get I only 175 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 1: get people who are willing to come forward with their experience. 176 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: What's um, so, so who's getting abducted? M hmm. Well, 177 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: most of the work that I did was in the 178 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: early two thousands, um and UM. At that point, you know, 179 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: Thomas Bullard Eddie Bullard had done that huge store, that 180 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: huge study about abduction accounts. Christopher Bader has also done 181 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: a lot of work in terms of religious studies, as 182 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: as Christopher Partridge. And then I also did a piece 183 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: for the general UFO studies, and and my sample of 184 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: experiencers was very similar to what other people's reports were 185 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: kind of reflecting. And so while in the past it 186 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: had seemed as though more women were being abducted, the 187 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: kind of balance between men and women even out it 188 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: seems as though it's just about equal now. My sample 189 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: seemed to be made up of people who have a 190 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: higher than average education or at least attend more school 191 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: than average kind of census data. But of course I'm 192 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: collecting my data at abduction conferences and via the internet, 193 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: both of which require disposable income, leisure time, and and 194 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: a class privilege that also is correlated with educational attainment. Right, So, um, 195 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: I think that, Um, I think that the people and 196 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: totally I can tell you that the people that I 197 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: talked to about their experiences were not the people that 198 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: I anticipated. They were just regular people, and they had 199 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: regular lives and regular jobs and regular families, and they 200 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: just thought that they had been abducted by aliens or 201 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: had these encounters. And and there was also when I 202 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: was when I was reading your paper about this, there 203 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: was sort of racial disparity compared to the population at large. Yes, 204 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: absolutely alien abduction, at least those abjectives who are willing 205 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: to or experiencers who are willing to come forward are 206 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly Caucasian. Um. But again, and and it does seem 207 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: to be And there have been several articles that have 208 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: been written about like, you know, why, you know, why 209 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: the aliens only abduct white folks? And I think it's 210 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: a valid question. Um, But you know, culturally, I think 211 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: there are several explanations for that in terms of the 212 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:31,239 Speaker 1: way abduction stories can be used to kind of explore 213 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: racialized discourse or kind of race more broadly. Do you 214 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: have an example? Yeah, so the ones I'm thinking of 215 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: are all related. Oh I know, yes, Okay, I was thinking. 216 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: I think a lot about gender because a lot of 217 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: the stuff that I've been doing lately is more feminist stuff, 218 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: and so I have all kinds of gender examples at 219 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: the ready. In terms of um, you know, David Jacobs 220 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: writes about these extra gestational units that are implanted into 221 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: men so that they can then incubate and kind of 222 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: bring these alien human hybrid fetuses to life literally, and 223 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: so kind of I interpret that as somewhat this co 224 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: optation of birthing narratives and pregnancy narratives by men, right, 225 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: because that's historically a story that they've left entirely out 226 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: of that they're not allowed to experience and that they 227 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: can't have, but through these extra gestational units they can. 228 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: In terms of an example for race, I think that 229 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: just the fact that experiencers talk about a multiplicity of 230 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: types of aliens and that the aliens have different characteristics. So, 231 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: for example, the little gray aliens that are so popular 232 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: in pop culture are oftentimes those beings that are um 233 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: kind of worker beings. They don't necessarily have personality, they're 234 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: not particularly developed or advanced in a lot of ways. Technologically, 235 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: certainly they are, but they're very focused on conducting experiments 236 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: or um or doing that kind of thing. Whereas people 237 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: also talk about Nordic aliens, and Nordic aliens have a 238 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: tendency to be more human looking and they are, you know, 239 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: characteristically Caucasian and blonde. Um, and those aliens are the 240 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: ones that are compassionate. Those aliens are the ones that 241 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: are kind. So there have been a bunch of different 242 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: studies or a couple articles anyway, that talk about gray 243 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: aliens as being kind of the combination of black and white, right, 244 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: and so this ambiguous racialized mixture, But also the fact 245 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: that the advanced aliens are Caucasian, I mean, coupled with 246 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: ancient alien theories, which are inherently racist in some ways. Um, 247 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: you know, race is clearly underneath it all. The fact 248 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: that any um, non westernized, non on colonized society couldn't 249 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: have made whatever it is, the Pyramids and ask a 250 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: lines whatever, um, and they needed to have help from extraterrestrials, 251 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: but westernized Caucasian societies didn't is a little questionable. Okay, 252 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: So sort of change in direction a little bit. Can 253 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: you explain the concept of a living myth? Sure? Um, 254 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: so myth unlike kind of the pejorative negative connotation, right 255 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: that people have Oftentimes when people say when I say 256 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: I study myth, people who have had experiences get initially 257 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: really defensive. They're like, you're not going to tell me 258 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: this isn't real. You're not going to tell me this 259 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: is fake and made up. Because when we think about myth, 260 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: we think about fake stories. But when we talk about 261 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: myth academically, right intellectually, when we're talking about myth, we're 262 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: talking about those stories that orient us towards the world, 263 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: those large framing stories that help us make sense of 264 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: our personal identities of our communities and literally of the universe. Right, So, 265 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: living myths can be or myths, It can be anything. Religions, 266 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: for example, our myths. And that's not to to be 267 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: disrespectful to religion. What it means to say is that 268 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: religions are orienting stories that tell people what their purposes, 269 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: what the universe is about, how the universe got here, 270 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: how society should be. They give us all of these 271 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: kind of ways to behave They tell us what we 272 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: should do and should not. Um So, so religions are 273 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: like living myths, And in my work I argue are 274 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: are like myths. Excuse me, And in my work I 275 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: argue that living myths are those stories that can bubble 276 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: up in communities or in societies that help do the 277 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: work that orienting work of myth, but aren't codified and 278 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: written down and aging in a way that makes them irrelevant. Right. 279 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: One one could argue that the Catholic Church, for example, 280 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,959 Speaker 1: has not kept up with scientific knowledge, it has not 281 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: kept up with feminist positions, it has not kept up 282 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: with kind of cultural social justice issues, and so for 283 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: many the framework of of Catholic myths or Christian myths 284 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: might not resonate anymore, right, they might not feel as 285 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: though they can be a part of that. And I 286 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: think that people seek out most people seek out those 287 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: spaces of belonging and those explanatory ideologies and world views 288 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: that comfort us and inform us. And so I don't 289 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: think it's a bad thing. I always feel like defensive 290 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: when I have to talk about myth UM. I don't 291 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: think it's a bad thing. I think it's just an 292 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: amazing faculty of humans that we use narrative to make 293 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: sense of our lives. And these are the stories that 294 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: we tell. Strange arrivals will return in a moment. And 295 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: then so you took a look at these um, these 296 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: narratives and kind of identify some emergent stories right of 297 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: you know, thematically similar stories. Mm hmm, yeah I did. 298 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: There are several different themes, and themes have changed over 299 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: the years. Right in my initial dissertation, I wrote about 300 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: themes of physical salvation, where the extraterrestrials were here to 301 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: kind of rescue us, whether that was actual physical rescuing 302 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: like taking people off the planet via ships or collecting 303 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 1: our DNA to be able to um remake or you know, 304 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: keep alive humanity in the future. So those were narratives 305 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: of physical salvation. There were narratives of hybridization, which are 306 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: the stories that we hear about a lot in both 307 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: the abduction community, the UFO community, and also in pop culture. 308 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: And those are the stories about the alien human hybrid 309 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: kind of program, this UM drive to make a master race. 310 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: And and within narratives of UH narratives of hybridization, we 311 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: have this tension between both those stories where the extraterrestrials 312 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: are it's kind of the John mac story of they 313 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: are spiritually advanced. They're here to help us, They're here 314 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: to help us evolve, They're here to help us have 315 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: that ontological shock that will allow us to be integrated 316 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: into the galactic community UM, versus the stories that are 317 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: told by people like David Jacobs, where the aliens are 318 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: not at all good. They are very manipulative, they're very 319 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: deceitful UH, and they are not here for anything other 320 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: than their own personal use of the human as a 321 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: resource right to to carry out this program. So hybridization 322 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: has this tension between the two that I find totally fascinating. 323 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: So UM. The third narrative type was betterment of humanity, 324 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: and in those narratives, the extraterrestrials were coming in order 325 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: to help humans evolve themselves. But it's a very in 326 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: those So in those stories, people would be compelled to 327 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: advance spiritually, engage in meditation, they would be compelled to 328 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: change jobs and do things that were more service oriented 329 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: like e. M. T. S or doctors. And what's really 330 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: interesting or what distinguishes the betterment of humanity narratives from 331 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: the cosmic community narratives is the fact that embedterment of humanity, 332 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: the individual is the focus. So it's not about humanity, 333 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: it's not about UM the universe. It's about the individual's 334 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: personal journey of betterment um that and it's intimated that 335 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: that is for the betterment of humanity certainly, But in 336 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: terms of making distinctions, it was the fact that it 337 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: was still focused on the individual, whereas the later narrative category, 338 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: cosmic community, is much more about the collective whole and 339 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: the collective move towards UM, you know, integration. And then 340 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: the four thematic thing that I found in my dissertation 341 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: research was these narratives of cosmic community. And in the 342 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: narratives of cosmic community, it's really this more full articulation 343 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: of almost a religious discourse of this idea that the aliens. 344 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 1: Oftentimes it's the aliens are us and we are them. 345 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: The DNA is all shared, but it's not necessarily turned on. 346 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: Also in this category are narratives that talk about kind 347 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: of the inter dimensional or intergalactic nature of these entities 348 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: UM and whether or not they are us from the 349 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: future and uh and and other things like that. So 350 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: what I found and the reason why I did that 351 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: thematic analysis was I found that depending on the motive 352 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: that people believed right the individual experiencer, depending on what 353 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: they believed why the aliens were here, the narrative qualities 354 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: of their store ease were similar. So, for example, in 355 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: stories of um cosmic community, oftentimes people didn't talk about abduction, 356 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: which I found fascinating um. Instead, they would talk about 357 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: the significance of the experience. They would talk about the 358 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: consequences of the experience. And so I argue that those 359 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: stories have kind of been internalized more and are much 360 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: more a part of the person's identity, whereas stories of 361 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: like physical salvation and evacuation, when the aliens are going 362 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: to come in a ship and take us away, or 363 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 1: take our d n A. Those stories are very granular 364 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: in their detail. The textual detail is tiny. So they 365 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: talk about the the the appearance of the beings and 366 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: of the ships. They can talk about the smells. Oftentimes 367 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: people report smelling sulfur. They talk about the attitudes of 368 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: the beings, they talk about telepathic communication and in play. 369 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: They're talk in great detail about what goes on during 370 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: the experience, particularly um the capture portion of the experience, 371 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: where they're paralyzed in bed or compelled to drive to 372 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: a remote location, whatever it may be. But those stories 373 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: are very much specific in their in their details, and 374 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: people are much more likely to use qualifiers and to 375 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: say things like I know this might sound crazy, or 376 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: I don't know what I think about this, or I'm 377 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: not sure, or this may have been a dream right. 378 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: There are a lot more qualifiers in those other narratives 379 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: as well, and so with the four of them, I 380 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: argue that they're kind of like Russian nesting dolls in 381 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: terms of the process of belief, and so as someone 382 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: comes to believe something, as someone interprets their experiences right 383 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: there having these anomalous experiences that they don't know what 384 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: to do, with and then suddenly extraterrestrials make sense. It 385 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: resonates as true for them, and so of course at 386 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: first they're going to say, I'm not sure about this. 387 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. But then as they come into their belief, 388 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: as they get more affirming UM and and confirming evidence, 389 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: then they get more and more developed in exactly the 390 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: significance of that experience. So is your sense that these 391 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: different themes UH can like sort of happily coexist, you know? 392 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: I I do think that they can. They can well 393 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: happily coexist. I don't know about happily coexist. I think 394 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: that whenever UM reality is being created, which reality is 395 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: always being created through language, like that's how we get 396 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: things that are real, you know. UM. But whatever that 397 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: is happening, there are inconsistent and other narratives that contradict 398 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: the status quo or the party line. Right, So we have, 399 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: for example, a history of race in the United States 400 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: that until recently ignored the you know, colonization and murder 401 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: of indigenous people, and ignored the degree to which UM 402 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: capitalist society was based in slavery. So, but now we're 403 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: getting those kind of corrective narratives. So I think that 404 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: with any with any truth, with any reality, we have 405 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: this kind of competitive narrative thing that goes on. So 406 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: I find it really interesting the tension between people who 407 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: claim that the extraterrestrials are here to help us and 408 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: people that claim the extraterrestrials are here to hurt us 409 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: because they don't have room for each other, right, because 410 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: it can't be both um. Although some people do say 411 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: that there are certain ones that are here to help 412 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: us and certain ones that are here to hurt us. 413 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 1: But for the most part, these tensions of motive I 414 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: think really speak to kind of the tensions in our 415 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: culture and tensions in our society. Interesting. Um, so you 416 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: use you use Jacobs and you use mac what Um 417 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: Was there a reason why you didn't use Bud Hopkins. 418 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: I did do um well for my dissertation. I did 419 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: primarily I used the narratives that I had collected. Right subsequently, 420 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: I've looked at and Hopkins. I think certainly I've read 421 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: his work, and he's part of the trajectory of authority 422 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: and trajectory of narrative, and that's tense to just in 423 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: terms of the release of his book Versus Whitley, Strieber's book, 424 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: and the timing of all of that, and and the 425 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: privilege ching of particular narrative types. So I think that 426 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:09,239 Speaker 1: for me, Mac and Jacobs are the primary kind of 427 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: touchstones because of their credentials quite truthfully, right m d 428 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: pH d um. Those credentials are oftentimes highlighted in their work. 429 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: At the top of every page of I Think It's 430 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: Secret Life, it says David Jacobs PhD. You know, on 431 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: the cover of Abduction. For John Mack it says John 432 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: Mac m d um. And so I think that the 433 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: the pushing of the credentials along with the narrative makes 434 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: it digestible to general society. Not necessarily experienced there's, but 435 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: general society in a different way. One of the things 436 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: that I find really interesting about abduction discourse and alien 437 00:30:52,840 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: experiences is the focus on reproduction. And there is uh 438 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: a book by a woman named Brown, I think, who 439 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: writes about the kind of correspondence between reproductive rights politics 440 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: and abduction accounts. Timing. So, for example, Betty and Barney 441 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: Hill happens right as kind of Row v. Wade in 442 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: vitro fertilization. All of these kind of things are swirling 443 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: around reproductive politics, and suddenly, not suddenly, but simultaneously we 444 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: have aliens who are focused on reproduction and on making 445 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: this kind of hybrid race. And I think that when 446 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: I talk about FUCO and biopower, what biopower does is 447 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: biopower really gives us away to think about, to take 448 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: a step back from the actual narrative or from the 449 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: story and try to understand who gets power from this 450 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: or how is this working for the individual or for society. 451 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: And so with with notions of biopower, what we have 452 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: is we have two poles, and on the one pole 453 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: we have the individual, and on the other pole we 454 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: have society. And for CO argues that there are mechanisms 455 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: that can strain and kind of limit both the individual 456 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: and society, and um alien abduction discourse kind of really 457 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: demonstrates that in the sense that it's highly focused on 458 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: the individual and the individual's reproduction and what the individual 459 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: gives and what the individual can do. And so you 460 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: can talk about that, right, so the individual can talk 461 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: about the fact that they have just stated several of 462 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: these pregnancies, they have had these pregnancies taken, and then 463 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: they can have ownership over all of that trauma, right, 464 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: because the rhetoric trauma is huge, and so then those 465 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: feelings are then given an outlet. Similarly, when we think 466 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: about kind of the whole body politic, we also have 467 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: kind of rules that are being made around the future 468 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: of the species, so to speak, in the sense that 469 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: the aliens are targeting particular types of people or types 470 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: of characteristics that are deemed desirable. So most notably oftentimes, 471 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: when people claim that they've been they've had these experiences, 472 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: when I ask them why they're chosen, oftentimes people will 473 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: say that they're chosen because they have the ability to 474 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: be more intuitive, to be more spiritual, to rely less 475 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: on the rational world, to distance themselves from capitalist consumer society, 476 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. And so what we really 477 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: see and there is a critique of enlightened rationalism and 478 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: this idea of that spirituality, intuition, individual experience are all valid, right, 479 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: They're all important ways of knowing, and that the scientific 480 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: method should not be the only privileged way of knowing. 481 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 1: And that particular tension is most clearly shown when people 482 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: will say to me, I don't care that you know, 483 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: people try to refute it, I know what happened to 484 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: me right, So the primacy of that experience interesting. Is 485 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: there anything that I haven't asked you about that you 486 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: think is important for people to understand? What I'm thinking 487 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: about is I'm thinking about the fact that I do 488 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: believe that the people with whom I corresponded and interviewed 489 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: and everything else, I do believe that these people believe 490 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: what has happened to them, right, And I believe that 491 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: they believe that it's true. Um, And so I guess us, 492 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: what I hope is that researchers, both the researchers of 493 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: all types, are able to kind of help people find 494 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: ways to talk about these stories and talk about the 495 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: larger cultural reflections. Kenneth Burke rights that language selects reflex 496 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: and deflex reality, and I absolutely believe that is true, right. So, 497 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: so abduction discourse to some degree selects particular aspects of 498 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: reality and magnifies it basically for us to see. And 499 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: so the focus on reproduction, the focus or the the 500 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,399 Speaker 1: exclusion of racial diversity, all of these things I think 501 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: are indicative of kind of our current political cultural times. 502 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 1: Next week, on the final bonus episode of this season 503 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: of Strange Arrivals, I talked with documentary filmmaker Carol Rainey 504 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: Bud Hopkins ex wife and former research partner. She talked 505 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: to me about her experience in the midst of the 506 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: abduction heyday of the nine nineties and early two thousand's. 507 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:27,879 Speaker 1: Bud and Dave regarded their findings as they interpreted them, 508 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: showing that if the aliens were here to harm us, 509 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: and we didn't know maybe they were, but they certainly 510 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: were here to do us any good, that they used 511 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: us basically as research subjects. They had no compunction about 512 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: coming into our bedrooms at night, or dipping into our 513 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: cars or wherever we happened to be and vacuum us 514 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: up and either experiment with eggs s firm. You know, 515 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: none of this makes sense scientifically over decades and decades. 516 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 517 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. This episode was written 518 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: and hosted by Toby Boll and produced by Miranda Hawkins 519 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: and Josh Thane, with executive producers Alex Williams, Matt Frederick, 520 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: and Aaron Manky. Betty Hill was portrayed by Gina Rickikey. 521 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: Barney Hill was portrayed by Jason Williams Special thanks to 522 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: the MILNS Special Collections and Archives at the University of 523 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: New Hampshire, John Horrigan, w y Am in Norwich, Connecticut, 524 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: John White, and David O'Leary, the executive producer of the 525 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: History Channel's dramatic series Project Bluebook. Learn more about the 526 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: show over at GRIMM and mil dot com. For more 527 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 528 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,280 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite else