WEBVTT - Reddit's IPO, Bitcoin's Rise, and SVB's Collapse 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:06.840 From Marhard where Innovation, Money and power Collie in Silicon Valley, NBN. 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:11.680 This is Bloomberg Technology with Caroline Hyde and Ed Ludlove. 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:27.680 And Karine Heider Bloomberg's world headquarters in New York and 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:29.240 Imed Ludlow in San Francisco. 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:30.760 This is Bloomberg Technology. 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.800 Coming up, we'll bring you the latest details on that 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:36.680 Reddit IPO as the social media company I is raising 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.479 nearly a seven hundred and fifty million dollars for its. 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:43.960 Public offering, plus bitcoin top seventy two thousand dollars for 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.760 the first time. As the digital currency continues it's rally. 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:50.760 Aphilias Snider of twenty one Shares joins us to discuss 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:51.400 and later this. 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.480 Hour will be joined by venture capitalist Vinov Kosla to 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:56.960 talk one year since the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:57.600 and of. 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.520 Course his thoughts and open AI and so much more. 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:01.880 But now let's turn. 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.200 Our attention to the public markets and look a little 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.440 bit of caution still surrounding these tech names we sold 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:08.720 off on Friday. We continue that into Monday as we 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.959 I big macro points from the PPI from the CPI. Basically, 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:15.640 where is inflationary pressure taking us We're down only by 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:16.880 a bat of a tenth of a percent on the 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.080 NASDAG and I'm looking at a ten year yield up 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.760 only some two basis points now, so we're just fading 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:23.880 some of that initial sell off, but still carry over 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.240 from Friday. Interesting that globally speaking, we're seeing a little 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:29.880 bit of bottom picking happening in China at last, at 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:32.759 least it seems after we wrap up the focus on 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.760 the overall party and indeed the future of the economic 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.160 trajectory in China, we're up about two point six percent 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.399 on those Chinese traded names here. 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:40.760 In the US. 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.160 That's the Golden Dragon Dragon Index I look at. Let's 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.039 have a look at what's happening in the area. That 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.559 just moves apart from the risk concern that we see 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.920 in the equity market and continues to power ever higher. 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.320 Edwill dig into why the UK is looking more favorably 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.320 on some spot bitcoin etns. I'm looking at three point 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.640 nine percent higher on bitcoin seventy two thousand the clips today. 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:01.240 What have you got on the. 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.920 Micro Well, unsurprisingly in the equity space, you do see 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.079 crypto related stocks moving higher. Coinbase kind of the main 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:10.240 ones up four point three percent. I think at one 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.000 point in the session, trading at its highest level since 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:16.360 twenty twenty one, it's year today gain now beyond fifty percent. 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.080 That often happens right when rallies in bitcoin continue. So 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.919 did the crypto related equity side of the story, Meta 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.519 to the downside, biggest drag on the Nasdaq one hundred. 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.200 There's no kind of clear news headline out there, but 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.519 I would note that Trump this morning, former President Trump, 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:35.120 reiterated his comments that a ban on TikTok is bad 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.560 because it would benefit Meta, and he thinks Meta is bad. 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.200 I'm not drawing a causal link between the move and 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:43.839 that narrative, but it's the only thing really that's out there. 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.440 The top story is about a name that will soon 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.040 be publicly traded, and that is Reddit. We got the 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:50.960 amended S one, and this is what it looks like. 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.440 Twenty two million shares at the upper end of the range, 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.600 thirty four dollars as shared in terms of the pricing, 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.639 and if you take it on a diluted basis evaluation, 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:01.560 about six point four billion dollars. 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:03.480 It's interesting to go through the S one. 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:05.560 It's kind of as much about what you learn on 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.080 the company and what you don't some of the stuff 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.320 that's missing. But we've been waiting for this one since 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.880 twenty twenty one when they filed confidentially and they kind 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:17.320 of missed what was a banner year then for us IPOs. 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:18.959 Have they got the timing right now? 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:21.600 Key question is perhaps we come off the baill a 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:23.520 little bit when we look at the tech names as 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:25.840 of late Bloomberg's Ryangul joins us some more on all 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.400 of this head and RN, what did you learn from 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:30.880 the filing? And as Ed insinuates, what do you feel 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:32.160 was really left out? 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.200 I think there was a little bit left, sort of 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:36.800 a little bit of a question mark around you know, 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.520 exactly how much how much was going to be offered. 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:41.680 I think there was some question as to whether or 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:43.840 not there would be more. And I think you know 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.200 the ED is drawn attention to the valuation discrepancy. I 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:47.720 think you know there have been some calls that I've 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:49.760 had this morning. Is it five point four? Is it 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.400 six point four? I think you know that is a 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:54.920 that is a valid question. Obviously on a fully diluted basis, 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.600 it does extend as much as six point four billion dollars, 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.040 But you remember we wrote that, you know, early testing 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.640 the waters meeting said that they should target sort of 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:05.720 five billion as a as a as a minimum, and 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:07.560 I think, you know, that's sort of in the ballper 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.640 part that they've that they've gone to. But what I 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:12.360 do think is interesting from the filing is that you 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.680 know this eight percent that is going to you know, 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.880 they're saying, we say investors, it's their employees, it's some 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.920 of their existing shareholders. And also you know the fact 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:23.960 that a lot of those shares aren't going to be 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.240 locked up. So yes, come tomorrow there's a pub you 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.400 could you could be selling these shares if you are, 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:29.800 if you feel so inclined. 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.280 And not only sort of what we would call insiders staff, 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.240 but if you're a redditor or a moderator on a platform, 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.640 you can get access to the shares too. And Ryan 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:41.039 and you and I were talking the other day right 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:43.920 when they sent out that memo's redditors. Their pitch was 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.839 basically like, hey, you can get in on the IPO 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.360 at the same level as the Wall Street institutional investor. Look, 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:54.880 how fantastic this access is. How big a factor though, 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.719 if it's just eight percent of shares and there's no 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.440 lockdown or lock on them. How do you think that's 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:01.760 going to impact trading in the day. 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:04.880 And I think I'd put this in the sort of 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:08.839 you know, the ballpark of curious, just not least because 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.039 you know, there is this campaign on what Reddit itself 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.799 around you amongst the Wall Street bets crowd around shortening 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.000 the stock on the open tomorrow. I think there's obviously 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.040 a lot of provider around that. But I mean, you know, 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.640 this is an ipa about you know, trying to strike 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.000 you know, equality for for Reddit and it's its employees, 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.760 its customers. I think Reddit wouldn't have got to this 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.560 place had it not been for those those you know, 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.200 very loyal users who have stuck behind it for in 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.320 this past three years, because a lot of them have 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.200 been waiting for this moment. Some of them may not 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.560 agree that, you know, the part of the public is 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:42.680 the right one, but you know, this is a this 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:44.960 is a transition for the company. This is something that 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.560 are looking to move past and sort of get behind 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:49.040 because there's a whole lot of stuff to be done 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:51.880 as a public company after trading, which is expected to 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:52.599 be next week. 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.320 Well said, and we have had glimmers of like within 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:57.200 the IPO space. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:58.840 More broadly, Amma Sports came out. 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:01.320 We also know that there's a a key AI name 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.320 that's backed by Intel that's looking at the market's Astera Labs. 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:05.680 More broadly. 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.120 If this does go well, do we think more technology 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:10.839 names will follow behind Caroline? 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:11.279 For sure? 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:13.880 Not least because I think this mint, this window that 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.320 we're in now, this March window has been one that 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:18.320 there's been so much written about and so much said 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.440 about it. Reddit is really a bell weather. It's going 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.000 to be a very significant bell weather for names like Rubric, 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.839 for names like tu Ro, waste Star. A lot of 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.400 the sponsor backed tech names you mentioned Asterra Labs that 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.120 is feeding directly into the sort of AI chips Frenzy. 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.919 There's another name, Cerebra Solutions, that you know we have 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:35.840 also covered. 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:37.719 You know, that's all said. 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.640 You know, there is a huge backlog of tech names 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:43.839 that are really look we know with eyes on today, 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:45.960 tomorrow into next week, not least to see how the 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.039 book builds, because you know, we should get a sense 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.279 into Wednesday, Thirsty if this week as to how the 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:52.840 book is building. Early next week we should get an 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.160 indication as to you know, how firm the demand is 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.039 across the price range, and I think you know that 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.440 will feed directly into the momentum that follow All. 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.839 Eyes are some of those lead banks Morgus, Stanley, Goldman, JP, Morgan, 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:05.240 Bank of America ED. 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:06.640 Yeah. 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.320 We'll also point out for the Officionada or the redditor 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.840 out there that on Wall Street Bets forum, thousands up 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:15.760 voted a post that was calling for Reddit stock to 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.560 be shorted on the day it starts trading, and that 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.800 sums up the relationship between its userbase and management of 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.800 that company. The most wryanguld terrific reporting. Now coming up 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.240 here on the show, we'll sit down with Aphelias Snyder 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.360 of twenty one shares as bitcoin hits a new record 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.960 seventy two thousand US dollars per token. In fact, above 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:34.520 that carrot. 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.840 Yeah, let's just focus in on another publicly traded stock, 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:43.400 obviously global stock, Taiwanese Semiconductor so TSMC. We're off by well, 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.160 it had been off by some three percent throughout US 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.880 trading and indeed in its own trading, but the fact 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:53.120 that we've now seen eclipse from an overall market capitalization perspective, 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:55.800 broadcom means it is back in the top ten head 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.840 of the most valuable companies in the world, so they 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.440 managed to push on higher broadcon This is all, of course, 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:11.160 still a bet on artificial intelligence. This is blomebag technology. 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.080 Bitcoin just still on its tear, surging to a new 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.640 record seventy two thousand dollars per token today and in 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:24.600 fact digital assets have scored another win. It would feel 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.560 like more globally speaking alone the London Stock Exchange so 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.960 it will soon accept applications for ETNS exchange traded notes backed. 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:32.920 By bitcoin or Ether. 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:37.160 Let's join now, twenty one Shares co founder president Aphelia Snyder. 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.520 Twenty one Shares is the world's largest issue of crypto 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:43.160 exchange traded products. Already got your presence here in the 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.199 US and in Europe. So I can imagine with the 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.920 LS starting to eyes these things while you're looking at 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:48.240 how you. 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.080 Start to cross those t's dot those eyes. 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.839 Yes, absolutely so, I think this has been quite a 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.720 while coming, and we're quite excited that the UK is 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:01.280 now looking to allow these listings to mester. It should 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.880 be quite a important change for the European market. 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.080 What's interesting though, there's still reticence from the UK market 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.160 on allowing retail ultimately to be having access to such 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.760 overall assets that are traded in this way. What is 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.960 the difference that you're seeing between US, between Europe and 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.200 potentially between the UK as to whether this is really 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:23.720 institutional money they want to bring in or still allow 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:25.360 easier access for a retail investor. 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:27.520 So we've seen a pretty broad mix. 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.600 Europe has for a long time, including Switzerland, allowed both 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.480 retail and institutional investors, and that's been our bread and butter, 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:37.600 has been really catering to both for the last five 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.080 years as we've brought these products to market. I think 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.439 what we're seeing in the US it's a little bit different. 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:45.920 It's still quite early for big institutions in the US. 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.800 Mostly they require typically ninety days to assess products and 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:54.719 due diligence to allow listings on wirehouses, so that has 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.160 barely begun and it's a little bit earlier in its 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.640 adoption cycle. I think you'll see something similar in the 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.640 UK over time, that we'll see a little bit more 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.920 retail participation, but it's early days still for that market. 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.320 I feel I really appreciated Caroline's question because I feel 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:14.320 like we're still trying to understand both kind of what 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.400 short term and long term drivers are at play with 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.840 bitcoin in particular. Right, I always look at the chart 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.520 over the weekend because Sunday rolls around, it trades twenty 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:25.040 four to seven, and there always seems to be this 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:29.160 kind of like start the week with momentum trade on bitcoin? 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.160 What do you think has happened in just the four 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:33.000 last four or five days alone? 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.360 So I think you're seeing and this is not just 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:37.920 the last four or five days, but I think the 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:39.319 last four or five days are a big part of 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:43.320 this narrative is we're seeing institutional adoption in the US. 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.640 It's quite early still because obviously not all of the wirehouses, 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.280 not all institutions have access to it, but you're actually 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.080 beginning to see those types of investors come online, and 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:59.199 that's changing bitcoin's market structure and biasing it towards weekday 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.920 trading in a way that hasn't historically always been the 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.520 case when this was a more retail dominated market and 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:07.560 a market that quite frankly had a lot of focus 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:10.760 on Asian market hours. You're seeing that come more towards 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.120 the US from a trading volume perspective, and it's largely 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.800 being driven by ETF flows, which are trading on US 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:18.479 hours and trading. 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:20.000 Is going to ask you, well, I was going to 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:21.840 ask you, you know, what are the data sets that 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:25.280 you look at each day beyond just the spot price 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:26.160 at any given moment. 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.839 So actually I don't spend much time looking at this 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.960 spot price at any given moment. I am typically more 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.480 interested in in fundamentals and what's happening from an on 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:41.240 chain metrics perspective, and what's happening within the blockchain community 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:45.160 and the blockchain ecosystems. The reason for that is that 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:50.240 it's quite sometimes challenging to see signal to noise purely 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:52.840 in price action, whereas on chain metrics are a bit 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.880 more sophisticated in that way and tell you more about 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.520 what's actually happening within the blockchain. And so that's actually 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.680 the basis of one of the products that we operate 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.240 in the US is actually turning productizing those types of 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.679 metrics into an ETF. But those are typically the things 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:09.360 that I look at. 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.960 What's been so interesting, of course, is the Bitcoin exuberance. Yes, 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:16.880 it's solidified it in terms of the dominant player, but 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.520 still all boats seem to have lifted to a certain degree. 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:21.319 I mean, we're starting to talk about mean coins and 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.440 some of them affiliated with politics, others I mean dog 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:28.280 withif hat for whatever reason, just catching the memes slitgeist. 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:30.719 But you also offer there's other products out there that 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.199 you have and you have exposure to the likes of Tazels. 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:35.400 I'm looking at what you've got Avalanche, UNISWAP. 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:40.560 How are you seeing real desire to be going outside 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:41.720 bitcoin and eth. 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.440 So we've seen obviously a lot of concentrated desire in 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.319 bitcoin at the moment because of the arrival of the USCTFS. 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:52.000 We'll see if that dynamic also spreads to eth as 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.000 this regulatory process in the US moves forward. I think 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.559 beyond sort of those top two names, we've actually seen 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.120 quite an uptake in demand, including from titutional investors, in 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.560 that longer tail, and we're quite a unique firm in 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:06.720 that capacity. We're really the only people who offer that 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:08.880 broad of a suite. It's about forty products outside of 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.760 the US, covering all sorts of different assets, and what 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.240 we've seen is an interest in that longer tail being 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.640 driven by some of our largest clients who are now 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.400 looking at blockchain applications and adoption of blockchain applications in 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.000 a very different light. I think you know a key name, 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.920 there would be something like Solana, where we've seen enormous 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.480 amount of interest over the last several months, and that's 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.160 continued as I think the overhang from some of the 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.839 black Swan events has dissipated and the bankrupcy estates have 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:39.000 come undone, and you're starting to look at those on 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:40.960 chain metrics that I just mentioned, and you're seeing that 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.200 actually there's some interesting things happening within those communities and 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.880 within these ecosystems that may or may not be priced 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:47.520 in at this point. 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.920 The institutional clients, I'm assuming looking for not just a 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.720 store of value but a utility here, I mean the 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:55.280 main points of the opposite of that it is just 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.000 about sort of greed for greed's sake, and that not 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.200 always being a bad thing, but or of a speculation trade. 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.359 But institutions want to see what, how is this changing dynamics? 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:04.960 Exactly? 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.000 How's it changing dynamics? What are people using them for? 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:08.079 Why are they using them? 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:09.720 What do you know? 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.959 What do these blockchains offer and what do these applications 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.280 offer in terms of actual utility. I think that's actually 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.720 a very big shift versus prior market cycles, and it's 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.600 coming partially from that institutionalization. I think it's going to 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:25.200 ultimately be very positive for the space. 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.280 Every time I post on social media about a fresh 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.400 bitcoin high, there's this one bench Cassis who replies almost 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.280 every single time, going, I like this stock referencing. 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:36.480 You know exactly what it's referencing. 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:38.840 The one thing that the balls and bears agree on 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:44.080 is that bitcoin and other crypto currencies or tokens are 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.840 likely to go up before having a significant pullback, or 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:52.080 have a pullback now but later rise. What's your kind 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.240 of big picture outlook. Do you have a kind of 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.880 one year bitcoin call, and what is it based on? 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.200 So I think a lot of that discussion around a 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.320 potential pull back in the market centers around the having 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:09.160 the point in time at which the rewards to blockchain 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:13.440 minor through bitcoin minors actually reduces by fifty percent. The 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.360 reason people are assuming this is because there's an assumption 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.840 that that dynamic is priced in in some way, and 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:25.200 so there'll be some overbought dynamics. I think this is 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.239 a little bit different than what is currently being discussed. 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.479 Quite frankly, I think that's a little bit overblown. 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.320 That the size and impact of the HAVING relative to 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.800 the size of institutional flows is so asymmetric, I'm not 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.920 sure it will create as much of a you know, 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:46.800 the sell off event as I think has been predicted, 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.440 primarily due to just this is not as impactful of 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:54.520 an event from a purely numerical order book standpoint as 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.520 it would have been in previous market cycles. I think 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.800 as I look longer term, I see quite a bit 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:04.880 of upside. There are the HAVING, while it can introduce 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.560 some short term turbulence, does further restrict the supply side 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:12.880 of this market. That ultimately, as long as demand continues, 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.280 should be a positive indicator for price action. 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:18.560 That will take a little bit of time. 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:21.120 I think you'll as long as you continue to see 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:26.160 increased institutional adoption and demand for these for the USATFS, 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.800 for the Europe and ETFs more broadly from the international 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.440 investor community, I think that's where you're going to see 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:36.080 price continue continue to come up. And it's something that 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:38.800 I'm quite bullish looking towards this year. 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:47.840 For Philias Schneider, we thank you for twenty one shares. 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:51.320 Okay, let's talk robotics. 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.640 Kavarians, a seven year old AI robotics company that works 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.600 with retailers and logistics providers across apparel, health and beauty 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:02.480 pharmaceuticals as well, has announced a new robotics foundation model 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:06.439 r FM, one that will give robots a human like 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.800 ability to reason with that a deeper understanding of language 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.520 and the physical world. Delighted to bring in Covariant co 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:19.760 founder and CEO Peter Chen, We talk increasingly about humanoid 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:21.280 robots robotics broadly. 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.520 On this program. You are working on the. 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:27.879 Software side, not the hardware side. Correct, just explain the 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:29.320 approach of covarian. 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:33.199 So what coverience building is really the debut of robotics. 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:34.240 So think about it. 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.120 As the general purpose brain that can sit behind any 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.080 robotics hardware that gives it the ability to see the world, 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.880 think about what's happening around it, and make decisions intelligently. 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.480 And this is a big contrast with traditional robotics, which 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.400 is really programming robots to do the same thing again 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.680 and again, which just doesn't cut it in today's warehouse 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:57.320 environment manufacturing environments where you have constant changes that are 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.200 coming in. And the unique Covariant approach is we don't 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.480 just build a single specific AI that can solve one task. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.760 We're really approaching it in a similar manner that for example, 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:12.480 like large language model is approaching chatbub other language right occasions, 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.560 it's a single model powering multiple use cases. 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.160 But here's the thing that you don't control the hardware side. 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.439 Right you take Tesla as a comparison. I don't know 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.440 your thoughts on the Optimist program, but they are developing 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.920 both the hardware and the software. 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.840 They obviously have Dojo that they're working on in house. 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.800 What are the risks and benefits of just focusing on 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.960 software if you're not too also doing purpose built hardware 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:39.520 to match it. 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.240 Yeah, So, first of all, on Optimus, we think it's 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.480 an amazing robotics program, Like it's a really great humanoid 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.680 hardware that is being build with being iterated very quickly. 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.120 From a converient perspective, we believe there's not a single 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.639 hardware form factor that would rule robotics to come because 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.280 the physical world is very diverse, Like there's not going 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.000 to be a single software, a single hardware the rules 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:03.919 it all. And we believe there are going to be 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:07.760 multiple kinds of robot hardware, some in the humanoid form factors, 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.679 some in the industrial form factors, some with maybe mobile 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.760 robot with a manipulator on top of it, and all 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.320 of these different hardware form factors still need to make 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.880 sense of the same physical world and covariance building exactly 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.520 that the same brain that can power multiple kinds of 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:24.480 hardware to make sense of the physical world. 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.760 So Peter, talk to us about the inputs here, how 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.320 hard What are the intricacies you need to go about building? 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.080 What is the largest data set ever to train this 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:35.600 new robotics foundation model. 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.920