1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: The president's legacy is shaped in part by images. So 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: our great grandchildren's idea of President Obama will be shaped 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: by the eye of Pete Susa. For a certain set 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: of Americans, it's easy to conjure his most famous shots 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Sasha hiding behind the couch in the Oval Office, the 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: President running down a bright East Wing hallway with Bow 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 1: as a puppy, the situation room during the killing of 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: Osama Bin Lawton. Pete Susa has had a resurgence of 10 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: fame thanks to his funny, sad, and undeniably pointed Instagram posts. 11 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: He juxtaposes shots of the ex president with the latest 12 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: Trump news. When the Muslim band was announced, Susa posted 13 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: a picture of Obama laughing with a young girl in 14 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: a head job. When Trump refused to shake Angela Merkel's hand, 15 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,639 Speaker 1: Obama showed up on Susan's Instagram feed, embracing her. These 16 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: and other posts have earned Susa a huge fan base, 17 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: two million followers, and one of the best selling photography 18 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: books of all time. But despite his association with Obama, 19 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: his first White House photographer job was with a very 20 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: different President Ronald Reagan. We moved to DC, win I'm 21 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 1: moved to DC and Michael Evans was the chief photographer 22 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: then and you came on when he was with Reagan 23 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: and you were part of a staff of people. What 24 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: in your mind has changed in terms of people's relationship 25 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: to a camera now that cameras are ubiquitous it in 26 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: everybody's pocket. Well, I think what it does is I 27 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: think every person now thanks that no matter what they're doing, 28 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: it might appear on the internet somewhere. Maybe they're more 29 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: suspicious now of you know, how they act and the 30 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: gestures they make when you were working with that group 31 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: of when I was working with that group of people. 32 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: By the time I came in during Reagan Um, people 33 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: were not phased by me being in the room taking pictures. 34 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: People just went about their business. But it was much 35 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: more cumbersome the process, relatively speaking back then, you're loading 36 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: film into a camera. Was lighting an issue, the sensitivity 37 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: of the lenses. I don't know that it was more cumbersome. Yes, 38 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: you've got to carry extra roles of film in your pocket. 39 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: That may be the only combersame part about it is 40 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: you gotta lower every once in a while, you have 41 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,399 Speaker 1: to light Reagan differently than and and and both instances. 42 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: I'm trying to do almost everything available light and never 43 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: never doing anything with lighting is the first thing you 44 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: said to yourself when you're in the Oval Office. That's 45 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: examining available light situation. Of course, of course they have 46 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: good available They have good available light in the Oval Office, 47 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: but not in like the Situation room or the Roosevelt Room, 48 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: you know some of sometimes some of those rooms are 49 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: not lit very well. And yeah, and from a photographer's standpoint, 50 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: it's like ship, I don't want to be I don't 51 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: wanna have to spend a lot of time in this 52 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: room because the lighting sucks. But the Oval Office. The 53 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: other thing is great about the Oval Office is the 54 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: lighting in there would change depending on the time of 55 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: the year. And like, for instance, when the leaves dropped 56 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: off the trees and and the sun was lower on 57 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: the horizon, you'd get this incredible light at different hours 58 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: of the day. Yeah, and and and it would it 59 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: would only be there during you know, like December, January, February, 60 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: and then the sun gets higher and you're not getting 61 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: any any direct light into the Oval Office. Then it 62 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,839 Speaker 1: becomes more flatter. So I was always looking forward to 63 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: the winter months for the lighting reasons. In your childhood 64 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: and your earliest collections, what was the first time you 65 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: had your hands on a camera. I did not really 66 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: take pictures until I was a junior in college. Um, 67 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: but here's the thing that, you know, you sort of 68 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: go back to your childhood and you to think about 69 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: things that maybe you did have an interest and you 70 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: just didn't even realize it. In nineties sixty five, my 71 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: parents took me and my sister to Washington, d C. 72 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: And we did all the tourist stuff, and there was 73 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: this book called The Living White House that we got, 74 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: which was like all the rooms in the White House, 75 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: they are all these color photographs, was put together by 76 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: National Geographic and there are some candid pictures of LBJ 77 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: in there. I just thought it was the coolest book 78 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: I've ever seen. And I used to look at that 79 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: book all the time. I mean, it's still at my 80 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: mother's house. And so there was something in the back 81 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: of my mind that the whole White House thing really 82 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: appeal to me. When you were young, oh not at all, 83 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: not at all. You went to be you. I went 84 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: to be you you were studying journalism. I was, I 85 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: wanted to become a sportswriter. And then you went to 86 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: Kansas when the Kansas State University for graduate work because 87 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: they offered me a teaching assistantship and photography. But it 88 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: turns out the best thing about Kansas State for me 89 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: was they had a great daily newspaper, college newspaper, but 90 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: they behaved as if they were, you know, a real 91 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: newspaper doing real journalism. So I started working for the 92 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: college newspaper. So the first time you use a camera 93 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: to take pictures as your junior year of college, yeah, 94 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: it's a very quick hop from you picking up the 95 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: camera for the first time to you teaching photography. I 96 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: fooled a lot of that. I tell you about that. Well. 97 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: I mean people think, oh, you graduated from Boston University. 98 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: You know, that's a that's a big time school, and um, 99 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: you know, they thought that I knew what I was 100 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: doing and I was still learning, but I knew the 101 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: basics of photography, and so I was teaching a basic 102 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: photography class at Case State. When you pick up the 103 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: camera for the first time would be what about it? 104 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: Did you say to me? It was magic? Shooting a 105 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: roll of film, the whole business of putting rolling that 106 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: film up onto the real in the dark, and as 107 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: you're shaking the tray, the image starts to appear on 108 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: the paper, and I was like, this is what I 109 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: want to do. You're in control from start to finish. 110 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 1: You're the only one involved in making the picture, in 111 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: developing the picture, and then in printing the picture. And 112 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: what did you like to shoot back then, probably trying 113 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: to do something with musicians. I was not very good 114 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: at first about photographing people. I was very shy, and 115 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: it was being so being shy affected how it was 116 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: like sort of like to me. It was it was 117 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: hard to relate to pe bowl when explain to them 118 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: why I wanted to photograph them, and I was self 119 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: conscious about it. And that was the biggest hurdle across 120 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: knowing how to deal with people in a way that 121 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: they would be comfortable to allow you to be in 122 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: the room while you're taking photos. Did you identify right 123 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: away that was an important component that you needed to 124 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: make people feel comfortable to photograph them. I needed to 125 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: make myself feel comfortable to be there. And the kind 126 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: of photography that I was doing was not. Um. I mean, 127 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: my guess is when when you're a photographed, it's a 128 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: photographer that wants to do a portrait of you and 129 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: put you in a setting and there's lights involves sometimes 130 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: or they're they're directing you a little bit, and the 131 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: photography that I wanted to do is fly on the 132 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: wall stuff I wanted I love, which I've tried to 133 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: turn my portrait photography into that. I say, please, don't 134 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: make me stand here and find some pos like you're 135 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: painting me. I would every time I work with a 136 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: photographer say let's talk, tell me a story about you, 137 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: or I'll tell you a story about me, and then 138 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: I'll stop. I have the sense to stop talking. But 139 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: I'm still that pot still simmering of where we're adam 140 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: terms of what we're discussing. So I'm distracted from my 141 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: own self consciousness. I need to take my mind off 142 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: the fact that we're taking my picture because I hate 143 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: having my picture taking and so do I I mean 144 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: the you do yeah, oh yeah, I can't. I don't. 145 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: I don't like the way I look, you know. But um, 146 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: but for me, it was it was take what you're 147 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: saying a step further. Uh, I didn't. I didn't want 148 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: to do a portrait at all. I wanted to be 149 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the first projects I did when 150 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: I was just starting out at BEU was there was 151 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: this dance class. Older people participating in this dance class, 152 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: and I just kept going back and every day I 153 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,599 Speaker 1: would go there to photograph because I wanted to just 154 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: sort of just like get the essence of what was 155 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: happening there, not a it wasn't a big subject at 156 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: the time, but for me learning how to do photography, 157 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 1: this was a good situation to be in where people 158 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 1: eventually didn't care that I was there, that I was 159 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: taking pictures. I could get close to them, I could 160 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: get whatever anal I wanted. So it's sort of like 161 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: a learning experience of you know, just do and fly 162 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: on the wall pictures. To when you've done in Kansas, 163 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: where do you go? So I've done at Kansas State 164 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: and I end up working for two small newspapers in Kansas, 165 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: which was a great training ground. Well, I just stay 166 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: in Kansas because it was a job there for you. 167 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: You liked Kansas mostly because there was a job. One 168 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: of my friends used to joke with me because One 169 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: of the newspapers I worked for, the Chinook Tribune, had 170 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: a circulation of six thousand. The town was maybe fifteen thousand. 171 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: It was an afternoon newspaper, and one of my friends 172 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: used to joke, if a dog crosses the street in 173 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: the middle of the day, it might end up on 174 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: page one because there was not that much happening town 175 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: small town. But it was a really great raining to 176 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: be to every day have to go out and you'd 177 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: have to come up with a page one photo, a 178 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: sports photo, and a business photo. Every single day. I 179 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: was the I was it. I was it And that 180 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: is probably the most pressure I've ever had in my 181 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: life to do that every day. Um, but it was 182 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: just a great training round because you how when what 183 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: did it force you? To force you to take the 184 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: most mundane situation and try to make an interesting photo 185 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: that when it's in print, people are gonna look at 186 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: and want to read the caption and maybe learn something 187 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: new every day. I can't say that I succeeded every day, 188 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: but I tried, and it meant a lot to me 189 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: the one year of that then and then I went 190 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: to the Chicago Sun Times. Uh So I went from 191 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: a six thousand circulation daily newspaper to SIDS and um. 192 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: It was one of those uh you know, somebody recommend 193 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: me for the job and I ended up getting it. 194 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: And which which specific job? Sports? Uh so general assignment photographers. 195 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: I did a lot of sports news, features, whatever. And 196 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: it was basically taking exactly what I did at the 197 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: small newspaper in Kansas and trying to apply that to 198 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: the big stity like a kid in the candy store. 199 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: Oh my god. It was so much fun. Yeah, like 200 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: covering big time sports, big time news. You know, there 201 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: was the Mafia was really big then and Chicago and 202 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: that was that was a component. Pete to me a favor. 203 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: I want you to photograph me on my left side. Okay, 204 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: that's my good side, right. I don't want to ask 205 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: you again, Peter, don't take a picture of me on 206 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: my right side. All right? We had no problem with you. 207 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta say you got the Chicago accident 208 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: down pretty might sometimes for how long? So sometimes not 209 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: very long. So see, I think I went there in 210 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: December of eighty one and I left in June of 211 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: eighty three because I got this call from Michael Evan. 212 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: Now wouldn't did Evans explain to you? Did he offer 213 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: any insights into why he called you? He knew your work, 214 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: could you had you wont awards for your photography. He 215 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: happened to have a photo editor working for him, White 216 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: House photo editor, who I knew and had been following 217 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: my career. And they're looking for people they think are hot. 218 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: They're looking for they were looking for one person. I 219 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: sort of fit the bill, and you know, my portfolio 220 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: then was pretty good. I had one some award in Chicago, 221 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: like Chicago Fire for the Year or something like that, 222 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: So I had gotten some attention in the industry photojournalism. 223 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: It's a pretty small community. You serve no everybody, And 224 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: based on the photo editors recommendation, Michael brought me in 225 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: for an interview and you know, offered me the job. 226 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: Presidents from Johnson on chose their own photographer. Doesn't have 227 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: to meet Reagan in order to get pass must not. 228 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: It was Michael. Michael made the call. I think I 229 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: met Mike Deeve, who was then deputy chief of staff 230 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: and was sort of overseeing the advance office and the 231 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: press office and stuff like that. So I think I 232 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: did talk the diver beforehand. But it was up Michael 233 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: made the decision. Were there ever moments of kind of 234 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 1: wistfulness when you missed the range of what you got 235 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: to do before basketball and mafiosa and everything, You've got 236 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: to do pretty much what you wanted. Did you feel 237 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: a little bit after some amount of time it was 238 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: a limitation to it, or you never felt that way 239 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: when you were in the White House. I was conflicted. 240 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: I mean I was even conflicted when they offered me 241 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: the job, because I was thinking, well, do I really 242 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: want to do this. I was not a fan of Reagan's. 243 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: Things were going really well in Chicago, so it's a 244 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: tough decision to make. But help what helped me make 245 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: the decision was what what you You always hope is 246 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: that you're making pictures for history and if you're in 247 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: the White House, But there there were times when I 248 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: really wished I was, you know, back in Chicago. Yeah, 249 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: we're shooting Reagan different from Obama beyond their personal I mean, 250 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: the one guy's a movie star. Yeah. I mean every 251 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: once in a while with Reagan, um, he'd be in 252 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: the middle of the meeting and he'd he'd like see 253 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 1: you taking pictures and like wink at you or something 254 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: like that. And with President Obama, it was like he 255 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: would forget that I would be even be in the 256 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,239 Speaker 1: room because so. But but it was a different circumstance 257 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: in that I didn't have any kind of relationship with 258 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: Reagan coming in. I didn't know him at all. I'd 259 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: never met him. Uh, And I didn't feel like I 260 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: was totally immersed in the Reagan White House the way 261 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: I was with President Obama. Why because um, I knew 262 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: President Obama for four years before he was elected to 263 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: the presidency, already had established a professional relationship with him. 264 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: Plus I came in as the you know, the chief photographer, 265 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: So this was gonna. I was all in with him 266 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: for forgetting about, you know, your feelings about the person. Politically, 267 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to do the podcast with somebody who 268 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: I don't have some degree of either admiration for or 269 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: interest in. UM. I respected Ronald Reagan, and I think 270 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: he respected the office of the presidency. And I think 271 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: because of that, I was able to say to myself, this, 272 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: it's worthy for me to be here. Were there ever 273 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: any episodes they were difficult for you? I mean, um, 274 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: I always looked at it is I wasn't trying to 275 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: glorify him. I was trying to, you know, accurately, honestly 276 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: portray what was happening. Um. But you know, certainly during 277 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: the Iran Contra affair, there are a lot of pictures 278 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: that I made that were, um, where he was, you know, 279 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: definitely down in the dumps and uh, not looking good 280 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: and sort of agonizing of what he did, what he 281 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: didn't do. And the world. You know, your younger listeners 282 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: won't remember this at all, but back in nineteen eighties 283 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: or the world was this is it was on cable TV, 284 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: on CNN. I don't think there's Yeah, it was a 285 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: big scandal, and I was right, and I was on 286 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: the inside, and it was a weird place to be 287 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: because even though his days were occupied with other issues 288 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: that were coming up, you still have to deal with 289 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: the economy and and he's having meetings on things that 290 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: have nothing to do with her on Contra. That's still 291 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: hanging over. It's in the air every single day, like 292 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: like like describe when is the White House photographer welcome 293 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: and allowed and when is he not? I think it 294 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: differs in every administration. Let's go back to Reagan, because 295 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: I didn't have relationship estab wished with him. Uh, you know, 296 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: I would push for as much access as I could, 297 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: but it but it wasn't the same as with President 298 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: Obama at all. I mean I had total access with 299 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: President Obama in a way that I didn't with President Reagan. 300 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: So Jeff Salmy mentioned to one of my producers that 301 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: Obama was curious about Reagan and asked you questions about Reagan. Yeah, 302 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: he knew I had worked for President Reagan. I said 303 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 1: to him that I wasn't didn't have the same kind 304 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: of access with Reagan as I did with him. And 305 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: he said, well, what was he like? I said, well, 306 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: to just be diplomatic about it, he was sort of 307 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: a big picture president, and President Obama said, I want 308 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: to be a big picture president. Former White House photographer 309 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: Pete Susa. If you're hungry for more from inside the 310 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: Obama White House, check out my interview with former Secretary 311 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: of the Army Eric Fanning. My job is to oversee 312 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: the army. The army budget is over a hundred forty 313 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: billion dollars a year. Do you think we still afford 314 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: to be a global power in the coming years. I 315 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: think we can, but I think we need to think 316 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: more creatively about it, as President Obama has been trying 317 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: to do. There are such as to what we can 318 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: spend and recognizing as he does, that national security is 319 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: more than just the military. Uh it's it's a whole 320 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: combination of things across the entire federal budget. There has 321 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: to be some balance there. The rest of that conversation 322 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: that here's the thing dot or org. When we return, 323 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: Pete Susa tells more tales about Obama from inside the 324 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: White House and beyond, and whether he'd agree to take 325 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: on the challenge of the Trump White House political differences aside. 326 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 327 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 328 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: Now more with photographer Pete Susa. You first met Obama ware? 329 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: I first met Obama his first day in the U. S. Senate. 330 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: Uh So. I was working for the Chicago Tribune then 331 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: based in Washington, and he's Ben, a Chicago politician, and 332 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: he covered him no because I was in d C. 333 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: But when he's elected to the Senate in Illinois and 334 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: he comes to Washington, then it's on, you know, my 335 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: watch too to photograph him, and so we Jeff Zeleny 336 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: was then a correspondent in the in the Tribune Washington 337 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: bureau with me. He and I hatched this plan to 338 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: follow Obama's first year in the Senate and UM do 339 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: four big pieces throughout the year and got pretty really 340 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: good access to him in the Senate. And just because 341 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: of that, where you're in there every day, Obama is 342 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: doing this, he's doing that, this is a senator, you 343 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: can sort of get to know the guy a little bit. 344 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: I met his family, UM, and that one year kind 345 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: of turned into two years because we started we went 346 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: to Africa with him, and two does at six again 347 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: as Senator UM. And just over time you sort of 348 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: get to know the guy. He gets to know you. 349 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: He sees that you work hard, he sees the way 350 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: you work trying not to interfere with what he's doing. 351 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: So I think he appreciates that you get it. He 352 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: says that I get it, which is funny because that's 353 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: very similar to a set photographer in the movies where 354 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: someone is obtrusive and where someone is kind of they're 355 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: kind of groping. You can see them and they're finding 356 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: the ideal shop. They want you over the person that's 357 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: in the foreground and the furniture and the painting on 358 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: the wall, whatever. And I see them moving around, I'd 359 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: say to them, will stage something for them for the rehearsal. 360 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: Then you have to go, because I only work for 361 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: one camera at a time. I will only perform for 362 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: the movie camera. And then there were those rare people, 363 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 1: like one out of ten they were ninja, and they 364 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: would get all these pictures and I need even though 365 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: they were there. Is that kind of how he felt 366 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: towards you. Yeah, and I and and he says that 367 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: in the introduction. I mean, I like the term ninja. 368 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: I think maybe that's I start using that, uh, because 369 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: that was my thing. I think I knew how to 370 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: move around and not be a nuisance. I could go 371 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: right behind him and show things from his perspective, and 372 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 1: it didn't face him a bit because he just like, 373 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: forget about me being there. A matter of fact, I 374 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: got into an argument with him one time. Uh. He 375 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: had this meeting uh scheduled with the Schwarzenegger when he 376 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: was governor in the Oval office, and it was it 377 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: was scheduled for after lunch. Okay, so at lunch time 378 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: when he ate, i'd I'd always go run down in 379 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: my office and eat at the same time, so I 380 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: wouldn't miss anything. So it's lunchtime, I go down my office, 381 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: I eat, I come back upstairs. Schwarzenegger's coming out of 382 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: the Oval office. They just finished the meeting, and I'm like, 383 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: what the funk just happened? So I started, like, you 384 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: actually say it that way to the no no, no, no, 385 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: no no, I said it to his personal sent Okay, 386 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: I said, what happened happened? This meeting was supposed to 387 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: Oh he changed it too before lunch. I go, why 388 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: the hell didn't you tell me? By this time, he's 389 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: like listening to my conversation and he's like, what's the 390 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: problem here, And I said, Sir, Katie forgot to tell 391 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: me that the meeting with Schwarzenegger was moved before lunch, 392 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: so I didn't get any pictures of it. And he's like, now, 393 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: you you were in there taking pictures. I go, sir, no, 394 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: I was not in there. He goes, yeah, yeah, you 395 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: were in there taking pictures the whole time. And I 396 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: was like, I was not in there taking pictures the 397 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: whole time. I was not in there for one second. 398 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: But he was convinced that I had been in there 399 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: because he was just so used to me being around. 400 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: I guess the president is never coming up to you 401 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: where his staff is af I coming up to and saying, 402 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: don't use that, use that, don't use that. That's all 403 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: up to you. In terms of at the White House. 404 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: At the White House, I would be the final like 405 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: editor per se. I had photo editor that worked with 406 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 1: me that would uh, you know, send me what they 407 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: determined to be the best picture. But I would always 408 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: sign off on every picture before it went out into 409 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: the public sphere because I was the guy who had 410 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: the relationship with President Obama and I just wanted to 411 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: be you know, just careful. Um. So it was an understanding, 412 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: even unspoken, that you were going to make them look bad, 413 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: you're gonna make them look good. The I don't say, 414 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: I never know what that means, because I think if 415 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: you look at some of this, a lot of the 416 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: pictures that we made public that I don't think they're 417 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: all about making him look good. I mean, I've got 418 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 1: pictures of him learning about the tragedy and Manghazi and 419 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: Sandy Hook where he doesn't look good, but I thought 420 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: they were authentic? Is it government property? So every single 421 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: picture that I took is now at the National Archives. 422 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: We were not allowed to the lead a picture, Thank 423 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: you Richard Nixon, because after Watergate nineties conference past the 424 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: Presidential Records Act that all this material had to be saved, 425 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: and including photographs was one of them. Not just the documents, 426 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: but every photograph had to be saved. So every single 427 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: photograph that I made is now at the National Archives. 428 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: Why do you think you never worked for a White 429 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: House for for a president in between? Because I didn't 430 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: want to, You didn't want to. You could have pretended no, 431 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: no, no no, I don't know. I mean it's it's the 432 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: odds of someone getting two calls to go WHEREK at 433 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: the White House as a photographer are pretty slim. They 434 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: were both accidental in a lot of ways. I was 435 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: an accidental with Obama. I just happened to be the 436 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: Chicago Tribune and DC when he became senator. That's that's 437 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: what launched me getting into the White House with him. 438 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: Some presidents Bush Senior, for example, less photogenic. Do you 439 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: think that determines what kind of a photographer? Then I 440 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: feel bad for him. Because you know, he's just he 441 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: doesn't look like a very stiff in front of the camera. Yeah, 442 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: he's got the glass, the big glasses. Is not happy 443 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: being photographed, to seem and son wasn't like that though, No, 444 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: his son. I know forty three a little bit. I 445 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: covered his presidency from afar Uh and he's he's actually 446 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: a good photographic subject, you know Bush, just because just 447 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: he's kind of a jokester and you know, like to 448 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: rip people and yeah, playful and he's a good looking guy. 449 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering what it must have been like for 450 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: the White House photographer there with with Clinton. Do you 451 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: think that there's times when you just go away and 452 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: leave him alone to suffer with what he's going through. 453 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is you know I mentioned 454 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: before about Iran Contra, this is a Ron Contra times ten. Yes. 455 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: And I was already working for the Tribune and in 456 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: d C. And so I would go to these events 457 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: as a member of the press to cover Bill Clinton. 458 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: And he was doing something, you know, on the environment 459 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: or the economy. It was during the impeachment crisis, and 460 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: all the news my editors, all they wanted is a 461 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: certain look from Clinton. To go along with today's story. 462 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: The picture was going to run alongside an impeachment store. 463 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: They wanted a witherd right, and so to be the 464 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: guy on the inside. Oh, I can't imagine what that 465 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: must have been like, But so does the president or 466 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: there or the times when they just dismiss you, they say, well, 467 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: let's not take pictures today or this week. You know, 468 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: if he's really struggling and suffering something like that. Are 469 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,959 Speaker 1: they allowed to take a pass like that or they 470 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: obligated to leave themselves open to that every day? It 471 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: is complete. There's no like ground rules. There's no there's 472 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: no ground rules. It's based on the photographer's relationship with 473 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: the president and either one of the administrations you served 474 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: where you asked to step aside for a period of 475 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: time while they endured something that was bothering them. And 476 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 1: Reagan it was harder to stay in the room with 477 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: President Obama. He never wanted everything. Yeah, so when Bush 478 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: Senior comes in, forty one comes in, you leave? Where 479 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: do you go? What are you doing in that period 480 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 1: of So for nine years after that, I was a 481 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: freelance photographer based in d C. Did some stuff for 482 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: National Geographic When life was a monthly. I did some 483 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: work for them. Would you enjoy doing what you had? 484 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: Your break from being in that bubble with those people? 485 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: It was fun. What was fun was trying to take 486 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: the fly you know, they fly on the wall approach 487 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: to sort of feature photography for National Geographic and UM 488 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: learning about color and light more. You know, working back 489 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: then and for National Geographic you have to shoot slide film, 490 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: which it was very unforgiving. You have to get the 491 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: exposure just right. You have to be outside when the 492 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: light was just right. You wouldn't be outside at this 493 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: time of the day at two o'clock or whatever time 494 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: it is now, you do you want to be outside 495 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: at like five thirty or seven am. So learning more 496 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: about light and color UM. But freelancing was hard for 497 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: me because I was not really good at marketing myself, 498 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: and I had it was for nine years. It was 499 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: kind of up and down. I had some roll highs 500 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: and some real loads loads where I wasn't getting work. 501 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: So being the White House photographer and and the for 502 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: the Reagan for Reagan for all those years, that's not 503 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: a guarantee of some kind of a put for you 504 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: job wise, not a guarantee, and the I think when 505 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 1: I left, uh the White House under Reagan, it wasn't 506 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: like I was that well known. I mean, one of 507 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: the things that happened with President Obama is I'm known 508 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: because of social media. When do you recall social media 509 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: becomes relevant. Well, what happened was there's been this tradition 510 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: since the Nixon days that the White House Photography Office 511 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: blows up pictures, hangs them on the wall the West Wing, 512 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: and then you rotate them out. And people were blown 513 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: away by the pictures that I was choosing to put 514 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: on the wall because it was the real behind the 515 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: scenes stuff. And the communications people came to me and 516 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: to go, we need to make these public. We need 517 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: we need the public to see. And I was the 518 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: hold out. It took me like four or five months 519 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: to really get into wanting to do this, and I 520 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: said to them, well, if this is the way it's 521 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: going to be, then I need to curate the collection. 522 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: I don't want the Press office looking over my shoulder, 523 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: looking at every picture on the screen and saying, let's 524 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: do this one. You gotta let the professionals. Because I 525 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: had a really good photo editor who had been at 526 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: time magazine. I said, you gotta let us decide which 527 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: photos we're gonna make public. So that's how it sort 528 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: of got started. It was the staff coming to me, uh, 529 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: urging me to make pictures public um on. At first 530 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: we used Flicker and then Instagram. You know, it didn't 531 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: even exist until the second year of his presidency, so 532 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: later on we started using Instagram. To what camera did 533 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: you use when you were shooting Reagan nikon f M two? 534 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: What camera did you use with Obama? So with Obama 535 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: used a Canon five D Mark two, And why don't 536 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: you switch from the one to the other. I looked 537 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: at all the cameras, and I thought Cannon was the quietest. 538 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: They had what they called a silent mode. It wasn't 539 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: totally silent, but it was pretty silent. And it became 540 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: essential for the work you do, totally essentially, and it 541 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: was so much quieter than Nikon. It was even quieter 542 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: than the like a digital cameras. Um And so that's 543 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: that's why I chose the Canon. When you are doing 544 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: what you're doing in between the two administrations, and did 545 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: you say to yourself, you know, why am I going 546 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: back here to do this again? For a second hit 547 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: of this was it what what did you tell yourself? 548 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: What was their reasoning to go back after you've done 549 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: it for so long with Reagan? Uh? Well, I think 550 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: it was because I realized that, you know, Obama could 551 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: be a transformational figure in our country. I liked him, 552 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: I liked his policies, and he was a great subject subject. 553 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: I think it's his look. You know, he's tall and thin, 554 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: but he just had this manner about him with gestures, 555 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: with the presence of the camera not affecting how he behaved. 556 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: Um the way you're gonna ask you about that in 557 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: the words in the way that it's do you think 558 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: that the camera truly captures the person for who they 559 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: are or do you think there are people who are 560 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: able to even fool a camera and make you think 561 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: there's something that they're not or obscure something about themselves 562 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: that they want obscure. That's a negative value. People can 563 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: definitely do that, But people can't do that when they're 564 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: being photographed every re single day, nine to six or 565 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: nine to eight or whatever. There's no way you could 566 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: fool a came that. Yeah. So, but you know, if 567 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: if like I was only coming in for an hour 568 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: a day or something. Sure, somebody could put on a 569 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: show for an hour, but not when this guy is 570 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: around you. Essentially seven, it wasn't really seven, it was 571 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: more like twelve seven. That's what strikes me about Obama 572 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: is that he was a guy with it was a 573 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: certain kind of integrity to him. That's what came through. Well, 574 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: the most interesting part of my job was that I 575 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: saw him and all these different compartments of his life. 576 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: I saw him as a dad, and I saw how 577 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: he behaved with his children. I saw him when he 578 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 1: was on the basketball court, and um, I played uh 579 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: cards with him. Most competitive guy I've ever met my life. 580 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: And the general public doesn't see that, but I saw 581 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 1: that part of him. They sort of have glimpses of 582 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: his family life. But you know, he loved his daughters. 583 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: He loves his daughters and you I could see that, 584 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: you know, all the time. To make in a sense 585 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: that he, like other men who have had that job, 586 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: it was painful for him not to be able to 587 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: spend as much time with his family as he'd like to. Well, 588 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: I mean, one rule that everybody at the White House 589 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: staff knew was at six thirty or seven o'clock. He 590 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: was in a dinner with his family full stop. Now 591 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: there are times where you come back down to the Oval, 592 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: but he was going to have dinner with his family 593 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: every night. It was actually easier as president than than 594 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: as senator because as a senator, his family stayed in Chicago, 595 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: and he'd come to d C like three or four 596 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: days a week. I mean three, yeah, for like Tuesday 597 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: through Friday morning or something. So there'd be at least 598 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: three days that he wouldn't see his family, whereas when 599 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: we were in town, he would see his family every night. 600 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: With the president we have. Now, what do you think 601 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: your life would be like? Now? Boy, I don't know. 602 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: I know one thing is. Under no circumstances would I 603 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: have stayed on to be White House photographer. I was 604 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: the White House photographer. Now it's someone that had been 605 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: in the Bush administration and had been lower Bush's photographer 606 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: for But I like, I just I don't think I 607 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: could bring myself to be there and do that. Is 608 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: it a man or a woman? It's a woman. And 609 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: do you know her? Yes? Your book which I have here, 610 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: Obama and intimate portrait is breathtaking. It's beautiful, it's a 611 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: beautiful book because the subject is a very attractive guide 612 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, and someone who I support politically, 613 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: which makes a huge difference. But but it also appeals 614 00:34:54,880 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 1: to people, I think because of what we are dealing with. Now. Yes, yeah, 615 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: he was Abraham Lincoln. What's a picture even that's a 616 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: damn good picture I took. Well, here's here. You know, 617 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: the goal is to always capture a photograph a moment 618 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: that has mood and emotion, that's composed just right, the 619 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: lighting is just right. And yet I'm going to tell 620 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: you there's a picture that only has one of those 621 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: components that is one of my favorites, and it's the 622 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: one on the back cover. Um it's a young African 623 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: American boy touching the head of the president as he's 624 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: as he's bent over, Because I think that tells you 625 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: a lot about how he relates to um or you know, 626 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: how a young kid relates to him. But also that 627 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: even as President United States, at the behest of a 628 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: five year old, he went ahead and bent over to 629 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 1: let this little kid feel his hair, which I think, uh, 630 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 1: how much tells you everything you need to know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 631 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: I understand. I understand. Um, well, thank you so much 632 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: for doing this, thanks for having me on and I 633 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: I love your book. I think it's absolutely gorgeous. And 634 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 1: you're right, it makes people wistful. It's tough because we 635 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 1: certainly wish that we were in a different place when 636 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 1: than we are now. But do you get to interact 637 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: with Obama anymore? Run into Yeah. The last time I 638 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: saw him was at the portrait gallery, then failing of 639 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: the two pictures, he and Michelle's portrait, and then I 640 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: saw him over Christmas at he had a holiday party 641 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: at his office. Uh. He was wearing a Santa hat. Uh. 642 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: People say, well, how's he doing? I go, well, the 643 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: thing that I noticed is it's as if the way 644 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: of the world has been lifted from his shoulders because 645 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: for eight years, you're the guy everything is coming to 646 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: your desk and and despite you know, you think of 647 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: him as being relaxed, and you know that that's a 648 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: big job to have. And I think that he is 649 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: now enjoying life. Pete Susa's book of photos and stories 650 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: from his years in the White House with President Obama 651 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: is called Obama an Intimate Portrait. It's beautiful. If you 652 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: already have that one. You can pre order Shade A 653 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: Tale of Two Presidents, his next book of photographs. It 654 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: takes susa's Instagram into hardcover framing, inspiring the photographs from 655 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: the Obama White House with tweets and quotes from Obama's successor. 656 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 657 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: Two cook