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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Fundamentally, the story is about a murder that kick started

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Speaker 2: the Communication Revolution.

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Speaker 1: And it involves someone who was a Quaker. And I

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Speaker 1: can't think of another Quaker involved in a high profile murderer.

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Speaker 2: There simply weren't those sort of people in their history. Sure,

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Speaker 2: there might have been some very very minor criminals, and

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Speaker 2: they were probably people born into Quakerism who were there

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Speaker 2: purely because of birthright, not because of any personal desire

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Speaker 2: to become a Quaker right.

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Speaker 3: But John Taul was the opposite.

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Speaker 2: His desire was to become a Quaker, but he had

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Speaker 2: this aspect of his personality, and it's one of the

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Speaker 2: reasons why he's such a fascinating character. If he had

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Speaker 2: just been your average crook, there would have been no

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Speaker 2: story in it. This is the story of a man

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Speaker 2: who essentially was unmasked by his mask, and that makes

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Speaker 2: it fascinating in itself.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a crime historian and the author

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Speaker 1: of the book All That Is Wicked and the audiobook

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Speaker 1: The Ghost Club. And this is our new season of

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Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked. For the season, we're leaving New Orleans

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Speaker 1: and the United States and heading over to England. This

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Speaker 1: is the story of a man who used his religion

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Speaker 1: to cloak his sinister side and the two women in

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Speaker 1: his life who both suffered because of it. It's also

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Speaker 1: about a brand new machine that helped close a murder case.

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Speaker 1: We called this season the Wolf among Us.

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Speaker 4: Now you are, hello, Grandpa's waiting and I said it

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Speaker 4: must be another exceed.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for picking us up. It's really kind.

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Speaker 6: He's no trouble. We're not picking you up. We're just

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Speaker 6: we're walking everything.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for guiding it this lovely walk. I've just

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Speaker 1: arrived in Birkhamsted, England, a town about thirty miles northwest

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Speaker 1: of London. A listener named Meg Edwards actually emailed me

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Speaker 1: about this story from her own family history, and today

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Speaker 1: we're traveling together on the eight a m Train from

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Speaker 1: Paddington Station. Meg has a step grandmother named Hillary Fox,

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Speaker 1: and Hillary is related to the man at the center

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Speaker 1: of this story, John Tall, a quaker, a pharmacist and

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Speaker 1: a killer. Hillary, her husband, Gerald, and Meg all take

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Speaker 1: me on a walking tour of Birkhamsted, the last place

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Speaker 1: where John Tall lived. What do people do here is

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Speaker 1: this retirement or no.

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Speaker 6: No, it's a very active village. It's a town, but

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Speaker 6: it's very villagy. You've not been here, then.

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Speaker 1: What's the difference between a town and a village size?

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Speaker 6: Town has got a church and a town hall. I

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Speaker 6: didn't know that village generally just has a little church.

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Speaker 6: Hamlett doesn't have a church.

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Speaker 1: So it's based on the type of buildings.

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Speaker 6: Not necessarily on population.

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Speaker 1: Look. John Tall was a man with two faces, a

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Speaker 1: jackal and hide in a century when snake oil salesmen

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Speaker 1: and corrupt politicians got away with so much. The train

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Speaker 1: system made it very easy for someone to escape, and

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Speaker 1: the lack of a national identification system helped criminals remain anonymous.

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Speaker 1: This is the story of a killer who had a

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Speaker 1: very difficult time remaining anonymous. And one of the most

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Speaker 1: mysterious things about this case is why, despite being in

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Speaker 1: a country where crime was on the rise, the Quakers

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Speaker 1: remained true to their tenants. Most Quakers did. They were

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Speaker 1: respected and community minded and private.

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Speaker 5: What is the lineage between the two of you? Do

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Speaker 5: you have you sort of that out?

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Speaker 4: Yes, he was my great great grandfather.

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Speaker 5: What have you been talked about this story growing up.

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Speaker 4: I don't remember being told anything. I think it was

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Speaker 4: only remember discussing it with my parents at all. And

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Speaker 4: it says somewhere how it was all kept under wraps

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Speaker 4: for several generations because it wouldn't have been something the

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Speaker 4: Quakers we're proud to be associated with.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that Hillary's right, her family, who were Quakers

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Speaker 1: would not have wanted any of this to come out.

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Speaker 1: Hillary's granddaughter Meg says that she didn't hear much about

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Speaker 1: it either until recently.

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Speaker 7: She didn't tell me about it. It was my mum

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Speaker 7: who told me about it when I was a teenager,

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Speaker 7: and it was very much a there might be someone

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Speaker 7: in the family that you might want to look up,

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Speaker 7: and then giving me the name, and we never spoke

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Speaker 7: about it ever.

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Speaker 8: I think it was one of those things that kind

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Speaker 8: of lived in the.

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Speaker 7: Family a little bit but unspoken our side of family

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Speaker 7: at least.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty typical for the stories that I cover. The

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Speaker 1: families either know everything about the story, like the Witchers

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Speaker 1: and the Clements from season five, or they know virtually nothing,

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Speaker 1: like the family in season two about Birken Hare.

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Speaker 7: I think actually doing this podcast with you has been

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Speaker 7: the first time that I've said his name or spoken

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Speaker 7: about it to most family members.

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Speaker 1: Hilary Fox and I talk about what it means to

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Speaker 1: have a killer in the family, no matter how distant.

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Speaker 5: What does it represent, Does it represent anything? As an

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Speaker 5: odd story, I.

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Speaker 4: Don't feel any blame for him and his murders, because

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Speaker 4: then we are not in charge of our ancestors.

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Speaker 1: Let's start from the beginning. By his early thirties in

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Speaker 1: eighteen fourteen, John Tall seemed to be a successful businessman,

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Speaker 1: but he had a more humble start in life. Carol

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Speaker 1: Baxter is an author based in Sydney, Australia who's written

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Speaker 1: a book about John Tall, called The Peculiar Case of

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Speaker 1: the Electric Constable.

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Speaker 9: So.

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Speaker 2: He was born in a small parish in the County

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Speaker 2: of Norfolk in seventeen eighty three.

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Speaker 3: He was brought up in that parish.

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Speaker 2: His father was a shop owner, and then he went

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Speaker 2: to Yarmouth to work in a shop there. And Yarmouth

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Speaker 2: was a seaside resort at that time, and that's when

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Speaker 2: he was exposed to the Quakers.

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Speaker 1: Tall was raised in a home with little means, so

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Speaker 1: he was intrigued by the humble Quakers he encountered in Yarmouth,

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Speaker 1: I asked Carol what he saw in the Quakers why

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Speaker 1: they were so attractive to him.

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Speaker 2: We can understand that he saw in them a prestigious

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Speaker 2: group of people who were very wealthy, and as he

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Speaker 2: himself said, their garb controlled your behavior, and perhaps at

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Speaker 2: some point within himself he realized he needed controlling, but

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Speaker 2: he also knew he wanted money and prestige.

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Speaker 1: John Tall worked hard to ingratiate himself to the Quakers.

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Speaker 7: He was a person who was fascinated by the Quakers

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Speaker 7: in the way, their way of life. Like all religions,

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Speaker 7: or most religions anyway, it was something that was a

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Speaker 7: religion that was very handy to him.

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Speaker 8: It was something that was gave him a bit of

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Speaker 8: an easier passage in life.

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Speaker 7: I'm sure to an extent he very much believed in

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Speaker 7: the Quaker beliefs.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the Quaker beliefs, because I knew very

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Speaker 1: little about them before this story. The Quakers aren't referred

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Speaker 1: to as a church, but as the religious society of friends.

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Speaker 1: Carol Baxter says, this story really begins with them.

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Speaker 2: To become a member of the Quakers, you have to

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Speaker 2: prove your religiousness and prove your worth as a human

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Speaker 2: being and prove that you believe the Quaker views and values.

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Speaker 2: And the Quakers were a very religious, very strict religious sect.

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Speaker 3: They would not accept anybody.

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Speaker 1: Were they seeking out people to join, did they want

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Speaker 1: to convert people?

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Speaker 3: So they weren't evangelists by any means. They were. In fact,

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Speaker 3: they were almost the opposite of evangelists.

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Speaker 2: Because they didn't want people to join the Quakers.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't easy to be accepted.

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Speaker 2: They had to jump out of so many stepping stones

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Speaker 2: that it was extremely.

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Speaker 3: Difficult to do so.

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Speaker 2: So we get the sense of John Tall having to

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Speaker 2: prove a person that perhaps wasn't there at its heart.

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Speaker 1: Just about everyone involved in this story has agreed that

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Speaker 1: John Toll was an enigma, and he remains an enigma,

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Speaker 1: even to people in his own family. He was sneaky, deceitful,

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Speaker 1: yet he also seemed to embrace Quikerism. John Toll was

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Speaker 1: many things, but he certainly wasn't the archetype for a Quaker.

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Speaker 1: Asked Hillary Fox about her theories on John Tole's faith.

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Speaker 1: Was it real or was it an act? I'm interested

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Speaker 1: also in why he was attracted specifically to the Quakers.

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Speaker 5: Obviously, he had many options.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it may have been because of his first job being,

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Speaker 4: it says, for a quakeress, and then in a drapers

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Speaker 4: owned by quakers, and then in the bank. He must

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Speaker 4: have realized that that particular sect, with their special clothes

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Speaker 4: and they trusted sect of people, that he could go places,

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Speaker 4: and it suited him to adopt it.

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Speaker 5: And perhaps they weren't suspicious, maybe they thought the best

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Speaker 5: of people.

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Speaker 4: I think they did it first.

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Speaker 1: Carol Baxter says that John Toll initially seemed like he

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Speaker 1: was a respectable Englishman.

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Speaker 2: Initially he was a shopkeeper, except assistant shopkeeper, I guess.

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Speaker 2: But one of his clients was a chemist and druggist

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Speaker 2: in the old sense of the word. That they supplied

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Speaker 2: the pharmaceutical products. So he became a traveling salesman selling

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Speaker 2: commercial products.

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Speaker 1: Carol says that this seemed like a good career for him.

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Speaker 2: Now, this was a very very intelligent man who clearly

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Speaker 2: had abilities beyond the norm in a sense that he

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Speaker 2: had big ideas. He obviously had the background of a

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Speaker 2: scientific knowledge, how much he acquired that in his limited

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Speaker 2: schooling and how much through reading and general knowledge.

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Speaker 3: But he clearly was a very fast learner.

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Speaker 1: So he could see potential.

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Speaker 2: So I think probably as a commercial traveler he was

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Speaker 2: successful in doing so because he could sell the products,

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Speaker 2: because he could communicate their value through scientific knowledge. But

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Speaker 2: on the other hand, we're talking about a world where

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Speaker 2: he had aspirations for more and the income wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: been very high. So I think we're probably looking at

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Speaker 2: somebody with a family struggling financially.

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Speaker 1: Now we're seeing a classic conflict in crime history, the

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Speaker 1: person with little means who wants much much more but

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Speaker 1: might not have the acumen or the opportunities to make

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Speaker 1: more money. And soon we'll learn about John Tall's family,

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Speaker 1: his wife and children. He'll make some important decisions about

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Speaker 1: them shortly, and they weren't the bad decisions you might

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Speaker 1: be expecting in a crime story. As I said, John

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Speaker 1: Tall was complicated. So now to his physical description. He

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Speaker 1: was a slight man, very very slender, not very tall,

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Speaker 1: not overly handsome, but just handsome enough to attract women.

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Speaker 2: No, wont never use the word charming, but they use

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Speaker 2: the word wonderful.

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Speaker 3: Kind, caring.

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Speaker 2: So he obviously had that side of him that he

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Speaker 2: could go out of his way to help other people.

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Speaker 2: And again Was that part of his nature or was

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Speaker 2: that part of his mask?

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Speaker 1: Could be both.

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Speaker 2: It's a little bit hard to know, but I think

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Speaker 2: probably there was a part of his nature that did

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Speaker 2: do things for other people without necessarily getting a very

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Speaker 2: clear benefit. But on the other hand, you can also

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Speaker 2: see that the background of religion is a lot of

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Speaker 2: goodness is to benefit yourself in the long run.

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Speaker 1: Hilary Fox, her husband Gerald, and their granddaughter mag All

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Speaker 1: took me to the Quaker house where John Toll and

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Speaker 1: his family once went. That's beautiful.

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Speaker 5: Directed eats you.

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Speaker 3: Eats you.

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Speaker 1: It's a simple wooden home, still used for Quaker meetings.

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Speaker 6: This is typical friends meeting houses.

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Speaker 4: Very basic, No, because it's only one story, isn't it?

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Speaker 5: So this's the only room much you need for a

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Speaker 5: bigger place.

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Speaker 1: I asked them about the services.

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Speaker 4: Is the religiously They just called it meeting, going to

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Speaker 4: meeting and you just sit around in a circle. Because

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Speaker 4: I used to go with my father to the little.

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Speaker 1: One now and again, what was that meaning?

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Speaker 4: Like very plain and just the one main room, chairs

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Speaker 4: all in a circle, and there'd be people that you

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Speaker 4: knew that would always go. Because it was only quite

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Speaker 4: a small community. They'd greet each other at the beginning

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Speaker 4: and then go in. We'd go into the main room

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Speaker 4: and all sit down, and the silence would follow about

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Speaker 4: an hour, and then we'd all get up and they

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Speaker 4: greet each other again and we'd all go home.

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Speaker 3: That was it really.

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Speaker 8: Couldn't really was.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I could sit that one.

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Speaker 4: For children, it's quite a discipline to learn just sit there,

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Speaker 4: not speak if anyone wants to say something. I remember

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Speaker 4: my sister got up once and started a poem and

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Speaker 4: she sat down again, and that was the high light

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Speaker 4: of that. People just go to have right time and.

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Speaker 6: You can just sit in silence, and some just stands

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Speaker 6: up one thought or not.

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Speaker 4: So it's just it's almost like.

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Speaker 10: Meditating astrologically is beneficient because you have a group of

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Speaker 10: people become cohesive and you feel that people are supporting

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Speaker 10: you even though you're in silence. It's got some validity

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Speaker 10: about it.

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Speaker 1: I asked Hillary Fox about her relationship with Quakerism growing up.

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Speaker 4: Dad was a very dedicated Quaker. His father married a

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Speaker 4: Church of England woman. He went to both Quaker meetings

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Speaker 4: and little bit of church I think, but not a

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Speaker 4: great deal. He continued to him once he got married.

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Speaker 4: Although my mother was a Church of England and I

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Speaker 4: think were the trousers in the religious side of.

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Speaker 1: Things, But your dad really connected with Quakerism.

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Speaker 4: Dad was really lived the Quaker ethics. He always had

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Speaker 4: some poor dropout hanging about he was helping or gave

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Speaker 4: him a job on the farm, or he always had

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Speaker 4: that sort of leaning towards helping people who needed a

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Speaker 4: put of a leg up in life, and that's a

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Speaker 4: very Quaker thing to do that.

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Speaker 1: This seems like a good time to get a quick

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Speaker 1: lesson on Quakerism in England. John Hall would really depend

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Speaker 1: on the reputation of Quakers to shield him from punishment

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Speaker 1: for some of his crimes. So it's important to understand

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Speaker 1: why he would have been trusted based simply on the

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Speaker 1: clothes that he wore. Esther Zala is a researcher at

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Speaker 1: a university in Berlin who wrote a book called Quakers

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Speaker 1: in the British Atlantic World. I asked her to shorthand

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Speaker 1: the history of the Quakers. It's a big ask, yeah, so.

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Speaker 11: I'll try and keep it really, really short. So Quaker

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Speaker 11: emerges in the North of England in their sixteen fifties

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Speaker 11: and kind of comes out of a very turbulent period

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Speaker 11: of British history. We have the Civil Wars going on,

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Speaker 11: which go along with actually a completely toppling of the social, political,

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Speaker 11: and religious order of the time. The monarch is executed,

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Speaker 11: actually the Reformation sets in for blown. So there's this

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Speaker 11: sort of vacuum that takes place where people have the

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Speaker 11: possibility of imagining new ways of how do we want

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Speaker 11: to live, how do we want to order our society?

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Speaker 11: And lots of new religious movements pop up to fill

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Speaker 11: this vacuum, and the Quakers are one of them.

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Speaker 1: So this new Christian group emerges. I wondered were they

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Speaker 1: connecting their ideas directly to the Protestant Church.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, very much.

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Speaker 11: We don't need the church, we don't need establishment, we

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Speaker 11: don't need the theologians, we don't need experts telling us how

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Speaker 11: to believe even what faith is. We can do all

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Speaker 11: of that ourselves. And they're not too keen on political authority.

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Speaker 11: They have a large female leadership. Actually they have a

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Speaker 11: lot of poor people joining. They're very radical ideas and

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Speaker 11: initially they're very successful. They spread very quickly across England, Wales, Scotland,

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Speaker 11: to continent Europe and to the Americas.

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Speaker 1: Let's jump ahead. In sixteen sixty, the government started cracking

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Speaker 1: down on the centers and the Quakers were heavily persecuted,

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Speaker 1: and they realized that their radical stance wasn't helping them anymore.

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Speaker 1: It was getting too dangerous.

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Speaker 11: So they changed tack and they start signaling very strongly,

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Speaker 11: we're peaceful people, we very good subjects, we absolutely are

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Speaker 11: fine with the king being there, et cetera. We'll pay

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Speaker 11: our taxes, we're very good neighbors, et cetera. And they

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Speaker 11: engage in a lot of pr work, you have to

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Speaker 11: call it, and very successfully actually. So the term Quaker

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Speaker 11: is initially a slur and it refers to them talking

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Speaker 11: in tongues. So it's a term used to put them down,

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Speaker 11: and they appropriate that. They start calling themselves Quaker. They

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Speaker 11: publish lots and lots of pamphlets, which is the mass

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Speaker 11: media of social media most of the day, always with

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Speaker 11: a big heading of Quaker on the top.

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Speaker 8: And this is us.

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Speaker 1: So what would have been like for a new member

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds, like John Tall But.

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Speaker 11: It would usually be expected that is that you attend

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Speaker 11: meetings for worship regularly for quite a long period of time,

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Speaker 11: so people get to know you, and people get the

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Speaker 11: sense that, yeah, you're serious like CHRISTOPHI, you're interested, and

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Speaker 11: then you're convinced you actually do want to join the

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Speaker 11: Quaker faith. You share these ideas and then you can

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Speaker 11: apply for membership, and then they investigate you.

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Speaker 1: So they investigated him.

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Speaker 11: Essentially, they interview you a few times. They will probably

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Speaker 11: that depends on the location, etc. Probably talk to your neighbors,

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Speaker 11: talk to other people, get an idea of whether you

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Speaker 11: have a good character, etcetera, etcetera. And once all that

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Speaker 11: is done, there will be a report and then they

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Speaker 11: like the people making the report and will make give

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Speaker 11: a recommendation.

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Speaker 3: Then you join.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the Quakers are known for now

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Speaker 1: these days?

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Speaker 11: I think they're mostly associated in people's mind with pacifism,

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Speaker 11: and they've had about two hundred years of act. They've

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Speaker 11: been well, very outspoken and were activists for a passivism

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Speaker 11: and against violence, against the warfare, particularly right. They actually

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Speaker 11: have representatives at the United Nations law being four pieces,

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Speaker 11: so highly political organization.

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Speaker 1: I asked Meg Edwards about famous Quakers that she had

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Speaker 1: heard of from the eighteen hundreds, not expecting an answer, Really,

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Speaker 1: who would know that she did.

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Speaker 7: The two big chocolate businesses of the time were both

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Speaker 7: Quaker and you.

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Speaker 5: Said it was Tedbury Chocolates and what was the other one?

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Speaker 8: Round Trees. I'll have to get you a packet. They're

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Speaker 8: really on me.

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Speaker 7: And you've got John Cadbury, who was the founder of Cadbury's.

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Speaker 8: He was a Quaker. It's such an interesting religion.

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Speaker 7: How there is a conflict there between piousness and then

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Speaker 7: also making money.

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Speaker 8: But I think that's something that runs through the whole religion.

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Speaker 7: Actually, John Cadbury refused to sit in a comfortable chair

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Speaker 7: until he was in his seventies because it was seen

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Speaker 7: as too luxurious.

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Speaker 1: Simplicity was a Quaker tenant, as well as generosity and honesty.

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Speaker 1: John Hall didn't seem to want to live simply, and

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Speaker 1: he would soon prove to be dishonest, but he did

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Speaker 1: desire to be a Quaker, most likely for the reputation

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Speaker 1: and connections that came with membership, and later in life

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Speaker 1: he would be generous, complicated man. John Hall dreamed of

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Speaker 1: becoming a fixture with the Quakers, and by eighteen oh

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Speaker 1: seven he had begun attending a Quaker meeting in Devonshire

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Speaker 1: House and then he applied to enter the Inner Sanctum.

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Speaker 1: That same year, he met a wonderful woman named Mary Freeman,

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Speaker 1: who was twenty one years old. Mary seemed lovely and

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Speaker 1: John seemed to really love her, but author Carol Baxter

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Speaker 1: says that there were two big problems. The first was

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Speaker 1: that Mary wasn't a Quaker.

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Speaker 2: When John married her, he at that moment was a

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Speaker 2: member and she wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Historian Esther Zala says that the Quakers had rules that

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Speaker 1: were very strict. They didn't approve of a Quaker marrying

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Speaker 1: a non Quaker.

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Speaker 11: So Quakers were from the beginning encouraged to marry within

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Speaker 11: their church. This isn't enforced very very closely, very strictly,

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Speaker 11: so some people will be disowned for marrying out and

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Speaker 11: others won't.

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Speaker 1: John's wife, Mary, dressed in the Quaker garb just as

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Speaker 1: he did, but they were not official members. Apparently, when

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Speaker 1: John was investigated for membership, the group found something or

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Speaker 1: felt something they didn't like. Because no one in the

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Speaker 1: group would vouch for John Tall so the couple simply

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Speaker 1: went to meetings, and once John married a non Quaker,

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Speaker 1: the result was quick.

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Speaker 2: He almost instantly got expelled from them, and in a

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Speaker 2: very embarrassing and humiliating way as well.

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Speaker 1: That may seem excessively punitive, and Carol Baxter says it's

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Speaker 1: because of this strictness that many people never bothered to

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Speaker 1: go through the process of being accepted.

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Speaker 2: You specifically had to apply to join the Quakers, and

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Speaker 2: then you had to prove yourself in so many ways.

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Speaker 2: So I suspect for a lot of people it was, seriously,

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Speaker 2: why bother?

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Speaker 1: So what could you do? If you weren't a member?

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Speaker 2: You could go to the meetings, and if you could

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Speaker 2: attend most of the celebrations, you couldn't attend all of them.

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Speaker 2: If you could have your children baptized quote unquote because

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Speaker 2: they didn't perform baptisms, of course, and if you could

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Speaker 2: be buried in a Quaker churchyard.

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Speaker 3: Did one really officially need that membership?

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Speaker 2: And I suspect a lot of people just thought, no,

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Speaker 2: and why bother putting yourself through the trauma and the

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Speaker 2: potential humiliation of doing so.

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Speaker 1: Potential public humiliation. John and Mary Tall must have felt

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Speaker 1: terrible about being expelled from the Quakers. Carol says that

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Speaker 1: John started his relationship with the Quakers with promise he

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Speaker 1: might not have been vouched for officially, but he became

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Speaker 1: a regular at meetings. That wouldn't last too long, because

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Speaker 1: soon John did start to do some things that the

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Speaker 1: group wouldn't have approved of.

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Speaker 9: Perhaps he had to cover up who he really was

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Speaker 9: for a long time in order to be accepted by

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Speaker 9: these people, and when he was accepted, it was as

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Speaker 9: if the cover the mask.

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Speaker 2: Started to slip and his behavior started to slip.

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Speaker 1: So the first way that John Tall had crossed the

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Speaker 1: line with the Quakers was by marrying a non Quaker,

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Speaker 1: but there was also a second way. John and Mary

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Speaker 1: had apparently had an intimate relationship before they were married.

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Speaker 2: He clearly had an affair with his wife before he

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Speaker 2: married her.

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Speaker 3: So he did two things wrong.

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Speaker 2: He married somebody who wasn't a Quaker, and that was

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Speaker 2: almost a sin above all lovers in the Quaker's eyes,

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Speaker 2: and he had appears to have had sex with her beforehand,

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Speaker 2: so a double whammy.

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Speaker 1: So has mask slipped.

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Speaker 3: So that mask.

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Speaker 2: Slipping leading to that marriage led to him being expelled

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Speaker 2: by the Quakers after everything he had gone through to

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Speaker 2: try and join the Quakers.

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Speaker 1: Historian Esther Zala says that the Quakers were intolerant of

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Speaker 1: inappropriate behavior.

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Speaker 11: If they find that somebody's behavior, for instance, they're criminal,

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Speaker 11: or they have a child out of wedlock, whatever. If

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Speaker 11: that attracts public attention, that's going to harm or reputation

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Speaker 11: for that's going to cross scandal, okay, And these people

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Speaker 11: are then disowned as they care.

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Speaker 1: It's called this element, it's.

445
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 11: Called his oment. Yeah, it's not actually an ostracism doesn't

446
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 11: mean you're never allowed to come to Quaker church anymore.

447
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 11: It doesn't mean your friends don't talk to you anymore.

448
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: I asked esther, what was the point then, if you

449
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: weren't forbidden for meetings?

450
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 11: But what it is it's a public statement by the

451
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 11: Quaker meetings saying we disassociate ourselves from this person. They

452
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,239
Speaker 11: are not one of us because we are not like that.

453
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 11: And that becomes really formative for the Society of Friends.

454
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: Hillary Fox says that even though he had aspired to

455
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: abide by the society's teachings, John Tall lived a life

456
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: that seemed to sway with the wind. It must have

457
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: been very stressful for his family.

458
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 4: I think that he had a great job getting in.

459
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 4: I think he got in and then when he married

460
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 4: a non quake, Mary Tool, I think he was out again,

461
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 4: and so his whole life he seemed to speak going in

462
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 4: and out of favor anyway.

463
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: Right before their wedding, an overseer reported during a meeting

464
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: at the Devonshire House that John Hall intended to marry

465
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: a non Quaker. The people in the house held a

466
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: meeting and talked about the discovery. There wasn't much of

467
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: a debate. The Quaker beliefs were clear. John Toll was

468
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: soon expelled. He was distraught. He had built his identity

469
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: around everything associated with a group, the meetinghouse, the friendships,

470
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: the clothing, and he wasn't willing to let any of

471
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: it go. He and Mary continued to go to meetings,

472
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: they continued to wear the clothing. They had two sons,

473
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: and they took both boys to the Quaker meeting house

474
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: when they were old enough. Even though John tried to

475
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: act like things were going well, his growing family definitely

476
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: caused him concern. He had never been good at finances.

477
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 1: Maybe it was because of his humble start, Maybe it's

478
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,719
Speaker 1: because he wanted a higher station in life. Either way,

479
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: he was a poor money manager, and now he had

480
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: a wife and two sons to care for he needed

481
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: funds and quickly. In eighteen fourteen, John made a terrible decision,

482
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: either out of desperation or greed, he decided to begin

483
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 1: to forge Bank of England money, the first in a

484
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: series of really unfortunate choices.

485
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: He decided to attempt to forge or counterfeit banknotes, and

486
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 2: he had a couple of ways of doing it.

487
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: I asked Carol to give me a primer on how

488
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: to make counterfeit money.

489
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: They could actually sort of cut up the notes. In

490
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 2: those days, there were no government banks. Banks were privately

491
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: owned and they produced their own banknotes, and they used

492
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: the copperplate printing.

493
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: System, which was a simple system.

494
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: They didn't do much to make them sophisticated.

495
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons for this was we need

496
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: to go back to the Napoleonic Wars.

497
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 3: The British needed.

498
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: Gold for the war effort, so they allowed banknotes to

499
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: become lower and lower in size. In a community where

500
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: most of the people were literate anyway, couldn't read a banknote, so.

501
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: They couldn't tell if it was a genuine banknote or

502
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: a forgery.

503
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 2: It just made heaven for any potential forgers out there.

504
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: They could actually very easily forge the notes, either through the.

505
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: Copper plate script or by just changing the notes they had.

506
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: So John Toll begins counterfeiting banknotes, and what happens next.

507
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: When he ultimately was caught.

508
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: He had some of what they called the cup notes,

509
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: but he had some notes that he was trying to

510
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: upgrade into a large denomination.

511
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 3: But what he also did was he.

512
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: Went to a copper plate engraver and he had them

513
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: forge one of the notes. He gave them a note on,

514
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: of all things, a Quaker bank.

515
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: So here's what happened. John Tall brought a Bank of

516
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: England note from Uxbridge Bank to a local engraver. Tall

517
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: told the engraver that he was one of the partners

518
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: at the bank. The engraver nodded and then started to

519
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: create a copper plate that was supposed to be in

520
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: a exact replica of that note.

521
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: So talk about getting his own back. He gave them

522
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: a note of a Quaker bank and asked them to

523
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: produce an identical replicant.

524
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: John Toll stood near the printer as he worked. He

525
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: carved into the copper and even though it's a soft metal,

526
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: it was a slow, meticulous process. He had to eye

527
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: the note constantly because he had to engrave the image backward.

528
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: And when Taul came back and they printed a note,

529
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: because they do the copper blade engraving backwards basically, so

530
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 2: the only way to see that if it's identical or

531
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: not is to print a note.

532
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: He covered the plate with ink and then the printing

533
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: paper was placed on top of the plate. The printer

534
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: used a large cylinder to roll over the plate, pushing

535
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: the inked image onto the paper. John Toll examined the

536
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: fake note next to the old Bank of England note

537
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: from the Quaker Bank and shook his head.

538
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: When they printed a note and he compared it with

539
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: the real thing, he said, no, it's not identical. This

540
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: is incredibly important. It has to be identical. You need

541
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: to do it again. And the aggraver was already a

542
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: little bit suspicious.

543
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: Why was the printer suspicious?

544
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: She was singing, why didn't they use the Quaker Bank

545
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: used their normal printers to produce the notes? And so

546
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: he found the name of the agents on the note,

547
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: and he went to see them, and that's when they

548
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: realized that they had no idea who this mister Smith?

549
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 3: How unoriginal was that? How this who this mister Smith was.

550
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: The Smiths were partial owners of Oaksbridge Bank in the

551
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: eighteen twenties, so this was a good cover. But when

552
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: the agents didn't recognize Hall, they alerted the authorities. Soon

553
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: investigators came up with a plan.

554
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: And they went and laid in wait for him at

555
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: the engraver's shop the next time he was due to

556
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 2: come to check out the note.

557
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: So the police were hidden in the shop.

558
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: When he came into the shop announced essentially who he

559
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: was and why he was there, they just leapt out

560
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: and got him. So then they took him to the

561
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: court bull essentially the courthouse, and the Quakers came in

562
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: to see who this man was who might have been

563
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: usurping their identity in an attempt to counterfeit currency on

564
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 2: their bank, and they found that the man wasn't usurping

565
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 2: the identity of a Quaker. He was a Quaker, and

566
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: he was a man they knew. USh that must have

567
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: been humiliating, so you can imagine how horrified they would

568
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: have been because one of the things that horrified the

569
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: Quakers later on was the connection between the word quaker

570
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: and murderer, and they were utterly offended by it.

571
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: One of the things we'll talk about this season is

572
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: the idea of redemption and motivation. Was John Toll a

573
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: man who became a Quaker because he believed in the

574
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: religion's ideals in its belief system, even if he didn't

575
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: adhere to it throughout his life, or was he using

576
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: Quakerism as a cloak, a shield to protect him from

577
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: the law we'll see. Meg Edwards says that her relative

578
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: John Tll never expected to be caught, even in the beginning,

579
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: for something as simple as forgery, and clearly that thinking

580
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: extended when he started to commit crimes that were far

581
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: more serious.

582
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 7: I really think at this stage in his life when

583
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 7: he committed the forgery, being caught was not on his mind,

584
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 7: like you said, clearly intelligent to be able to forge

585
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 7: a bank of England note, and by all accounts, he

586
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 7: was absolutely devastated when he was found out or confronted

587
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 7: about it.

588
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: There were reports that John Tall was crying.

589
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 7: There are accounts that he was crying and had in

590
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 7: his hands, and so I think it was probably quite

591
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 7: a shame thing and being caught probably caught him off

592
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 7: guard quite a lot.

593
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: I asked Meg about John's mindset, Did he really think

594
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: he could avoid punishment.

595
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 7: I do wonder though, whether at the back of his

596
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 7: mind when he was doing it, there was the idea

597
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 7: that if I do get caught, I won't be hanged

598
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 7: because I'm a Quaker, and because this is a crime

599
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 7: committed against the Quakers, and they'll they'll save me.

600
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: Angela Buckley is a crime historian and a blogger who

601
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: has studied this case. She says that John Tall was

602
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: scheming and manipulative, just like other criminals throughout history who

603
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: have become involved with powerful organizations.

604
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 12: You know, you have to wonder whether he joined the

605
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 12: Quakers just to add an air of respectability, because there

606
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 12: were lots of men I've come across, lots of other

607
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 12: criminals like him who joined the Freemasons, you know, for

608
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 12: those sort of purposes to give respectability whilst there was

609
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 12: stuff going on, you know, nefarious things going on in

610
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 12: their background, and.

611
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: There are still nefarious things to come with John Tall.

612
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: Soon two women would change the course of his life,

613
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: and his choices would almost destroy two families, both of

614
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: his families. John Tall had secrets, but eventually his life

615
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 1: would become public.

616
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: We know a little bit about him in terms of

617
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 2: his biographical information, but a lot of it is well,

618
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 2: a lot of it was from my research obviously, just

619
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: in terms of the dates and places and all of that,

620
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 2: because he was such a fascinating character once the events

621
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 2: went down in terms of the murder, if it was

622
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 2: a murder, and they soon established it was. Once the

623
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: events went down, the question was who was this man?

624
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: And so the whole of Britain was fascinated by this man,

625
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 2: and the whole thing unfolded a bit like at Charles

626
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 2: Dickens serialization.

627
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: Did you notice that author Carol Baxter said if it

628
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 1: was a murder, that little note will be important later

629
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: on things we know so far. John Tall was a Quaker,

630
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: partially accepted at least publicly in meetings in the eighteen hundreds,

631
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: and he was a forger. Tall was sneaky, but we've

632
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: only seen the start of it. This is a true

633
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 1: crime show, so he's likely a killer. And there are

634
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: many twists and turns to this story, including one so

635
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: infamous that we remember it nearly two centuries later. But

636
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: for now we're still in eighteen fourteen, and John Tall

637
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: has bigger problems than protecting his double life, the criminal

638
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 1: and the devout Quaker Criminal justice looked a little different

639
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: in nineteenth century England than it does today. Forgery was

640
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: a capital offense. If he were convicted, he would be executed.

641
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: For some perspective, if you were to forge United States

642
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: currency today, you would face up to twenty years in

643
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: a federal prison in a hefty fine, but not the

644
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: death penalty. Could Taull's brothers, the Pacifist Quakers save him

645
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: from the gallows? Maybe a better question is would they?

646
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,959
Speaker 1: On this season of tenfold more wicked on exactly right?

647
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 2: She wasn't the gold digger type fluttering her eyelashes.

648
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 3: I think she was just a sweet person.

649
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 2: So I just got the sense of her as being

650
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 2: a genuinely nice, caring person who was the ideal person

651
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:08,280
Speaker 2: to act as a nurse.

652
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 13: He was very concerned about his wife finding out about

653
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 13: the affair, and it's that kind of fear of being

654
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 13: discovered that you're kind of enjoying this illicit relationship, but

655
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 13: then when it's threatened with exposure, you have to face

656
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 13: the reality of it and what you could lose from it.

657
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 2: Suddenly, Sarah had gone from being a porn to being

658
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: almost a queen. She had started to have a voice,

659
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: and she made that voice clear in her decision to

660
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 2: ask him for money, and that was when she became

661
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 2: a threat.

662
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 1: If you love a good, real ghost story, my audio

663
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: book The Ghost Club is available wherever you get your

664
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: audio books. I can't wait to tell you the real

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Speaker 1: story about the world's most famous ghost hunter, who was

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Speaker 1: the head of the world's most famous ghost club and

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Speaker 1: how he investigated England's most famous haunted house. Please also

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Speaker 1: check out my book All That Is Wicked, which is

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into the criminal mind. This has been

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Speaker 1: an exactly right Tenfold War Media production producers Jason Whaling,

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Speaker 1: Alexis and Morosi and Natalie Wrinn. Editors Jason Whaling and

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Speaker 1: Kate Winkler Dawson researcher Kate Winkler Dawson, sound designer Eric Friend,

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Speaker 1: composer Curtis Heath. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia Hartstark,

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Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and

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Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold War Wicked and on Twitter at Tenfold War.

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Speaker 8: And.

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Speaker 1: If you know of a historical crime that could use

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Speaker 1: some attention, especially if it happened in your family, email

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Speaker 1: us at info at Tenfold, war Wi, wicked dot com,