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Speaker 1: piked In Massacre, Episode nine. We're going to do something
Speaker 1: a little bit different for this episode and go into
Speaker 1: the process of producing the podcast and also answer some
Speaker 1: questions we've been getting over social media. I'm Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 1: I work at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane.
Speaker 1: We're finally together again, distance but together. Yeah, because of
Speaker 1: COVID we've all been recording separately, but we're actually in
Speaker 1: the same socially distanced space today for the first time
Speaker 1: in many months, and we are sitting outside to keep safe.
Speaker 1: One of the things a bunch of people have asked
Speaker 1: about is how we came upon this case, and Jeff,
Speaker 1: do you want to speak to that, because you really
Speaker 1: were the impetus for it. Yeah. At Katie Studios, we
Speaker 1: do a lot of true crime programming, and so we're
Speaker 1: always kind of on the lookout for interesting cases that
Speaker 1: are layered and complex that could make for you know,
Speaker 1: compelling television documentaries. And you know, when it first happened,
Speaker 1: when the Rodents were first murdered, it got a fair
Speaker 1: amount of attention at the beginning, and as we've talked about,
Speaker 1: pretty quickly, the media kind of backed off when there
Speaker 1: weren't arrests, and that was kind of all there was
Speaker 1: to it in terms of our knowledge. And then in
Speaker 1: June of twenty eighteen, I read an article by Jeff Winkler,
Speaker 1: who you've all heard during this podcast, that he wrote
Speaker 1: for The Outline, a long form article about the crime
Speaker 1: that really he did such a good job of laying
Speaker 1: out the story and what happened and the people involved,
Speaker 1: and it immediately struck a chord with me, just the
Speaker 1: human element of it all and how tragic it was.
Speaker 1: And so reached out to Jeff Winkler and started the
Speaker 1: conversation about figuring out how we could make this some
Speaker 1: sort of long form documentary. Yeah. So here's an excerpt
Speaker 1: of him talking about piked in and part of what
Speaker 1: drew us all in. So I remember that very specifically.
Speaker 1: It was a big media story for about two weeks,
Speaker 1: and you know, everybody from all overcame to cover it,
Speaker 1: all over the world, and then they left and the
Speaker 1: murder was still insolved. How did you end up writing
Speaker 1: because you wrote a pretty big piece. What was told
Speaker 1: me about that? I wrote a piece about a year later.
Speaker 1: This was, after all the sort of fanfare and media
Speaker 1: attention went away, and I went to Piketon a year later,
Speaker 1: almost to the day, about a year or two the
Speaker 1: day of the killings, and I wanted to see how
Speaker 1: the town was doing, both the community and the people
Speaker 1: who were directly involved in it, because at that point
Speaker 1: there was still no suspects, no one was really arrested
Speaker 1: or being prosecuted for the crime, and it was the
Speaker 1: largest unsolved murder in Ohio's history, and the second largest
Speaker 1: mass murder that year in the United States, after the
Speaker 1: Poles shoot being in Florida. We'd been tracking this case
Speaker 1: since it happened, and when we first got involved, the
Speaker 1: Wagners hadn't been arrested or weren't even being looked at
Speaker 1: as suspects by detectives. So we pitched the idea of
Speaker 1: this documentary to Rod Asa and Corey Abraham, who are
Speaker 1: executives at NBC Universal's Oxygen Network, And really the spirit
Speaker 1: of that was that this huge crime had occurred to
Speaker 1: the poor road In family and the killer was at
Speaker 1: large and they were still out there. Cut to the
Speaker 1: Wagners get arrested, and our executives at Oxygen call us
Speaker 1: and put us on a plane to piked In. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, let's talk about we've spent I mean, I
Speaker 1: think between the three of us weeks in piked In
Speaker 1: over the course of many trips, and yeah, you guys
Speaker 1: spent more time there than I did. So I'd be
Speaker 1: curious what your take on it is. My first time
Speaker 1: was when we were going to do the doc and
Speaker 1: I flew by myself, I think on Thanksgiving and met
Speaker 1: Jeff Winkler, who of course wrote this an article, who
Speaker 1: we were you know, just talking to and brainstorming with.
Speaker 1: You know, initially, this trip, Stephanie that you're talking about
Speaker 1: was literally nine days after the arrest. You know, the
Speaker 1: Wagoners were arrested on November thirteen, twenty eighteen. She's on
Speaker 1: a plane on November twenty second, and so it was
Speaker 1: really soon after that the team was there, and I
Speaker 1: mean the town wasn't I think a form of shell
Speaker 1: shock at that point. I think the mood in the
Speaker 1: town was really palpable. There were something very big about
Speaker 1: what was happening around us. You know, we've said this before.
Speaker 1: It is a very small town, two thousand people, so
Speaker 1: to have eight people murdered out of those two thousand.
Speaker 1: Every single person in the town is affected to some
Speaker 1: degree or knows somebody six degrees of separation who was
Speaker 1: either on the Wagoner side or on the road And side.
Speaker 1: So everyone was very affected, and asking questions about this
Speaker 1: huge crime at that time, you know, can be hard
Speaker 1: because it's a sensitive topic. And it seems as though
Speaker 1: the time of Piked, and specifically in many of the
Speaker 1: family members of victims or on the Wagner side that
Speaker 1: in previous incarnations had been treated very poorly by the press,
Speaker 1: So we wanted to be very sensitive about that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Another thing Jeff Winkler talked to us about was his
Speaker 1: visit in twenty seventeen. I think this thing that stood
Speaker 1: up for me when I went in to visit was
Speaker 1: just how human everyone was. And I know that sounds
Speaker 1: a little tripe, but I mean I grew up in
Speaker 1: the Ozarks in Arkansas, So coming up from the Ozarks
Speaker 1: and then spend time in Texas and Tennessee, this is
Speaker 1: where I think the stories are and the coverage needs
Speaker 1: to be done more. And you know, when an initial
Speaker 1: coverage happened, you know, it was just these sort of
Speaker 1: footage and quotes from sad sort of backwoods people is
Speaker 1: how they're perceived. But everyone there is full of faith
Speaker 1: and humor, and you know, real sort of American mentality.
Speaker 1: People I met there who had family members still had
Speaker 1: a sort of a grim humor about things. So it
Speaker 1: was a way of coping. And people found faith in
Speaker 1: the local church. And you find these sort of avenues
Speaker 1: that people from anywhere find to grieve and to sort
Speaker 1: of move on. And that was I think that was
Speaker 1: the biggest thing when I went there. Jeff Wickler ended
Speaker 1: up becoming the greatest. We popped in a car and
Speaker 1: drove I don't know, probably fifteen hours a day door
Speaker 1: to door to various people's homes between Kentucky and Ohio.
Speaker 1: You know, Jeff Winkler, he knew this area. He'd been
Speaker 1: to piked in many times prior, so he had already
Speaker 1: been there and had the lay of the land. I hadn't.
Speaker 1: And you know, we've been tracking this case from far
Speaker 1: far away. It's articles, it's newspapers, it's news clippings. You know,
Speaker 1: you develop this relationship with the victims and the victims families,
Speaker 1: and now they accused simply by staring at their photos
Speaker 1: excessively and obsessively so for me getting there was fascinating,
Speaker 1: even just getting off the plane and renting a car
Speaker 1: to drive to piked In and seeing the water tower
Speaker 1: as I had seen in so many photos, and wanting
Speaker 1: to kind of understand better where the high school was,
Speaker 1: and you know, where everybody lived, and I just remember
Speaker 1: being emotional, and it's hard. You know, we make prime
Speaker 1: shows for a living, but then sometimes when you're submerged
Speaker 1: in the place and you know what the grief is
Speaker 1: that everybody is experiencing on the victim's side and on
Speaker 1: the accused side, it's a town ripped apart. And to
Speaker 1: Jeff's point, there's not a single person at the gas
Speaker 1: station or at the walmart or at the local restaurant
Speaker 1: that isn't either a thought, you know, isn't talking about
Speaker 1: it or thinking about it. To your point about showing
Speaker 1: up and just knocking on doors. As TV producers were
Speaker 1: used to being able to call people and book some
Speaker 1: of these shows over the phone, piked In, I think
Speaker 1: is a little bit of an outlier. You know, there's
Speaker 1: no a lot of cell service there. People live in
Speaker 1: the hills and it's hard to get someone on the phone,
Speaker 1: and so really the only way to do it was
Speaker 1: to show up, knock on the door, you know, with
Speaker 1: a smart hill and a box of cookies or a pie,
Speaker 1: and just hope that people would a answer the door
Speaker 1: and be let us in, which luckily the town of
Speaker 1: piked In was really, for the most part, very kind
Speaker 1: and receptive to us as complete outsiders being there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the first place I went was Rita Newcome's home and
Speaker 1: knocked on her door, and she was lovely invited me
Speaker 1: right in. You know, she was in fact wearing an
Speaker 1: ankle bracelet because she had recently been released, and to
Speaker 1: be truthful, at the moment, I didn't realize how embedded
Speaker 1: she potentially was in this investigation. The first morning I
Speaker 1: was there was the arrangement of Jake Wagner, and there's
Speaker 1: an interesting experience. The courtroom was packed and completely silent.
Speaker 1: It was delayed by almost forty minutes. It was supposed
Speaker 1: to be nine o'clock start, and I've never sat in
Speaker 1: a more silent room filled with people. And it was
Speaker 1: a very interesting experience seeing Jake walk in and hearing
Speaker 1: his plea and sitting near members of the Rodent family.
Speaker 1: Were people on both sides where people on his side
Speaker 1: where people on the road and side, Like, what was
Speaker 1: your experience like, Yeah, people were definitely on both sides,
Speaker 1: and the Rodents was absolutely filled and the Wagner side
Speaker 1: was much more sparsely filled. Do you think that speaks
Speaker 1: to what we've been hearing and what we've been trying
Speaker 1: to convey with this podcast, which is that the road
Speaker 1: and family was so incredibly close and as we were told,
Speaker 1: family over everything. Yeah. Absolutely, and just the devastation that
Speaker 1: ripped through that family is a little hard to comprehend.
Speaker 1: So people were definitely there, people who were definitely very sad.
Speaker 1: It was very tragic, and but they were there showing
Speaker 1: their support. I remember when Courtney was at that arrayment
Speaker 1: like calling you just to see what was it like.
Speaker 1: You know, again, we have these visions in our head
Speaker 1: based solely on photographs of the Wagner family, Jake Wagner
Speaker 1: being the youngest, just to kind of be able to
Speaker 1: see him face to face air quotes, or at least
Speaker 1: kind of look in his eyes to see, you know,
Speaker 1: does that look like a person who could actually commit
Speaker 1: something so heinous? And the truth is it's really an
Speaker 1: unanswerable question. A lot of people understandably, a lot of
Speaker 1: listeners have asked about where the children are now. Kylie,
Speaker 1: who is Hannah Roden's newborn baby, is with her father,
Speaker 1: Charlie Gilly. She was the infant that was just born
Speaker 1: five days prior to Hannah Roden. I would say for
Speaker 1: all of us too, and this probably would apply to
Speaker 1: listeners too. The fact that there were such small infants
Speaker 1: and young children left alive at the scene just kind
Speaker 1: of puts a dagger in your heart. So unfortunately, Sophia Wagner,
Speaker 1: who is the child of Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin,
Speaker 1: is in the care of Child Protective Services, and that's
Speaker 1: something I know the Rodin family is unhappy about, and
Speaker 1: I know specifically in the Wagner side of it, Deray
Speaker 1: is unhappy about. I think the feeling is that there
Speaker 1: are people who are blood related to Sophia who could
Speaker 1: give her a really good home right now. So here's
Speaker 1: a little bit from Deray about that. So you were
Speaker 1: actually hoping to like take Sophia in and give her,
Speaker 1: you know, a safe and comfortable home while all this
Speaker 1: is happening. Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm a I'm a professional.
Speaker 1: I mean I take in children with trauma that's my profession,
Speaker 1: that's what I like to do. I have two boys
Speaker 1: with me now who have autism. They're excellent children, they
Speaker 1: are well loved, their proof in the pudding, and we
Speaker 1: would have had a really good time, so they couldn't
Speaker 1: even like you couldn't even see so Fia if you
Speaker 1: wanted to, I could not. All I want her to
Speaker 1: know is she's loved. I don't want her to think
Speaker 1: anything's wrong. So something yeah, that we've been asked about
Speaker 1: by a fair amount of listeners was how the podcast
Speaker 1: has affected the people that we interviewed and the people
Speaker 1: that have spoken out about it. And I think for
Speaker 1: the most part, it's been pretty positive in terms of
Speaker 1: who we've talked to in their experience in piked It
Speaker 1: Living and piked In Barb for example, told us that
Speaker 1: she felt like the podcast represented the town well and
Speaker 1: the story in a fair way. Angie Montgomery, who we
Speaker 1: talked about her cousin Curtis and Jenny's case, felt happy
Speaker 1: that we were finally shedding a light on something that
Speaker 1: people haven't really been talking about. That was a really
Speaker 1: important piece of this for us, because we care deeply
Speaker 1: about piked In first and foremost we've been there many,
Speaker 1: many times. The town has been extremely kind to us
Speaker 1: at a time that not everyone has been that kind
Speaker 1: to them, and making sure that we weren't coming across
Speaker 1: in any universe as being insensitive to the victims and
Speaker 1: the victims families, understanding that there's a gag order, understanding
Speaker 1: that anything somebody says could have impacts on upcoming trials.
Speaker 1: It's important. The stakes are actually extremely high, and we're
Speaker 1: wildly aware of that, but it's hard not to be
Speaker 1: emotional about it, or to get emotionally attached to an answer,
Speaker 1: or you know, want to really understand who the boogeyman is,
Speaker 1: who's responsible for something so horrible, And as a result,
Speaker 1: I think every time we get involved deeper into this case,
Speaker 1: we want to know more. Is it possible that, hopefully
Speaker 1: the mom isn't involved, This couldn't be if Angela Wagner
Speaker 1: was at the center of it. Is it because she
Speaker 1: was being forced to be so by her husband or
Speaker 1: is that just a lie? Or was Angela wildly manipulative
Speaker 1: and coerced her boys in the spirit of defending her
Speaker 1: family and defending her Sophia. And if that's the case,
Speaker 1: what a silly plan because now you're never going to
Speaker 1: see your boys again. You've all been separated. If convicted,
Speaker 1: you'll never cross paths unless one of you folds on
Speaker 1: the other in court. And with four people, you know,
Speaker 1: if indeed they are deemed guilty, there's the question that
Speaker 1: we raised a few episodes ago about the informant and
Speaker 1: who that is. There is an informant who's been written about,
Speaker 1: and if it is one of the four, you know,
Speaker 1: if they've turned on the rest of their family, how
Speaker 1: that would bear out, because it would be hard to
Speaker 1: manage that guilt for years and years. Let's stop here
Speaker 1: for a quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment.
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Speaker 1: just over four years, people, in my opinion, packed mentality
Speaker 1: would suggest that at some point the night of the murders,
Speaker 1: if the Wagners did in fact do it, that there
Speaker 1: was a heavy there was somebody who was the real leader, right,
Speaker 1: and that the real leader reminds everybody, this is why
Speaker 1: we have to do this. We're protecting our own or
Speaker 1: we're protecting our family, or we're protecting Sophia, and to
Speaker 1: some degree everybody follows along. Again, at four different times,
Speaker 1: somebody could have changed their vote. Who knows what the
Speaker 1: circumstances of were that night. Although we're desperate too now
Speaker 1: add four years, four years separated, there's zero chance that
Speaker 1: all four of them will stick to the exact same story,
Speaker 1: not have the exact same amount of guilt, like somebody's
Speaker 1: going to crack. If that's the informant, it makes a
Speaker 1: ton of sense. And if that's the informant, who is
Speaker 1: either trying to spare themselves or spare their family somehow.
Speaker 1: That to me would make a lot of sense. The
Speaker 1: fact that George Wagner is requesting of Bible and requesting
Speaker 1: solitary confinement for lengthy periods of time, to me, has
Speaker 1: always been a bit of a tell you know, Jake, Yes,
Speaker 1: you're caught up. If in fact this is true, that
Speaker 1: you need to have custody of your child and you're
Speaker 1: heartbroken and the love of your life is dating somebody
Speaker 1: else and just had a baby with somebody else, and
Speaker 1: it's filled with passion. It's a passion kill. We make
Speaker 1: crime shows for a living. Oftentimes it's love or money
Speaker 1: or revenge. Defending your family. This checks all of those boxes.
Speaker 1: But that was then. Now add four years realizing you're
Speaker 1: not around your daughter any longer, you've committed mass murder
Speaker 1: from which you can never go back. Somebody has to crack,
Speaker 1: is my point. Just as a legal reminder, Angela, Billy Jake,
Speaker 1: and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's
Speaker 1: mother Rita Joe Nukam and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica were
Speaker 1: both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucombe was
Speaker 1: also charge with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty,
Speaker 1: and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt has proven.
Speaker 1: Can we talk about one thing that has always I'm
Speaker 1: going to speak for all of us, but is the
Speaker 1: thing in my head that I can never get out
Speaker 1: of it in terms of whether or not we believe,
Speaker 1: which frankly matters for nothing if the Wagoners are in
Speaker 1: fact guilty or not. It's the hacking. Why were they
Speaker 1: hacking the Rodent family for as long as they were?
Speaker 1: And according to the official documents that we have seen,
Speaker 1: it has been reported about also that in fact they
Speaker 1: were busting into all of their social media Why in
Speaker 1: such a mass in such a big way too, It's
Speaker 1: not as though it was. It doesn't appear to be
Speaker 1: jump in if I'm incorrect. It doesn't appear that, say,
Speaker 1: for example, Jake was hacking Hannah Rodin's Facebook because he
Speaker 1: was wildly jealous about her new relationship, or that she
Speaker 1: had moved on in a new relationship. That is terrible
Speaker 1: to do under any circumstance. But that seems like a
Speaker 1: young person's effort. But it doesn't seem like that was
Speaker 1: the case. It was a fairly high level surveillance operation
Speaker 1: happening to all of them. And why. What has been
Speaker 1: brought up in court is that it was deeply organized.
Speaker 1: I mean, they were Excel spreadsheets, done, hundreds and hundreds
Speaker 1: of entries about child custody. They put up cameras, and
Speaker 1: they were in all of their computers and phones. It
Speaker 1: was really elaborate. It was elaborate, and they were the
Speaker 1: Wagoners were often together. So was this an activity just
Speaker 1: because they wanted to track Hannah's relationship or like, where
Speaker 1: were they tracking? You know? What makes the most sense
Speaker 1: on the surface, and again allegedly, is that they were
Speaker 1: tracking the coming and goings and tracking the property and
Speaker 1: understanding the dogs. It did seem as though big dogs
Speaker 1: were common, and we know for a fact that the
Speaker 1: road in said attack dogs. Why didn't the dogs attack?
Speaker 1: That really does make no sense. Still, However, if you
Speaker 1: knew the dogs, and you had been to the home
Speaker 1: many times, as certainly Jake would have been many times,
Speaker 1: and you had an understanding of kind of how that
Speaker 1: home worked and what their habits were, it does feel
Speaker 1: like an indicant that the Wagners were up to no good.
Speaker 1: If they were legitimately cyberstalking an entire family just months
Speaker 1: prior to that family's tragic death. Clinton from Ganado, Texas
Speaker 1: asked us why Sophia wasn't with her mom the night
Speaker 1: of the murders and was it under unusual circumstances that
Speaker 1: she was picked up by Jake Wagner And yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's up for debate why Sophia wasn't with Hannah. Jake
Speaker 1: Wagner has admitted that he did pick Sophia up a
Speaker 1: day earlier than he originally planned, and that so she
Speaker 1: wasn't with her mom that fateful Friday evening. Jake Wagner
Speaker 1: said on the record, I reckon we missed it by
Speaker 1: just a few hours, and by it he means the murders.
Speaker 1: And so we don't know what happened between Jake Wagner
Speaker 1: and Hannah wrote in the night of the murders, or
Speaker 1: why he told her he was picking her up early,
Speaker 1: or why he did pick her up early, but we
Speaker 1: do know she was supposed to be with her mom
Speaker 1: that night, and for reasons we don't know, Jake Wagner
Speaker 1: did take her home early. And my expectation would be
Speaker 1: if we have texts exchanges, just based on the fact
Speaker 1: that we know that people text so frequently because the
Speaker 1: reception between phones can be spotty in these rural places,
Speaker 1: there has to be some sort of a message saying
Speaker 1: I will pick her up early or requesting to pick
Speaker 1: her up early. I think that is another huge smoking gun,
Speaker 1: the fact that Sophia wasn't there that day and was
Speaker 1: picked up by Jake off of schedule. He's changed his
Speaker 1: story on this a couple of times, and I think
Speaker 1: this was a key place where there wasn't inconsistency about
Speaker 1: this topic. But regardless, it is suspicious and we disagree
Speaker 1: on that. I think things happen, and what seems the
Speaker 1: simplest explanation to me is that Hannah had just had
Speaker 1: a baby days before, and maybe she wanted a break
Speaker 1: with just her infant and not a toddler. But something
Speaker 1: we don't know. Jay from Storm like Iowa, asked us
Speaker 1: what happens if the Wagners get off, will they get
Speaker 1: custody of Sophia. I can only imagine that if the
Speaker 1: Wagoners do get off, they will attempt to get back
Speaker 1: to their normal life, and it's possible they would want
Speaker 1: custody of Sophia, But former prosecutor Mike Allen told me
Speaker 1: that because they were so closely linked to the murders,
Speaker 1: it may be difficult for Jake Wagner's to obtain custody, which,
Speaker 1: if he's innocent, is tragic to think that because he
Speaker 1: was mixed up in this, he wouldn't be able to
Speaker 1: get to raise his daughter. Here's an excerpt of that
Speaker 1: conversation with Mike Allen. So let's say Jake Wagner does
Speaker 1: get off and has proven not guilty. So do you
Speaker 1: think he doesn't he doesn't have a chance of getting
Speaker 1: Sophia back. It probably has a chance of getting her
Speaker 1: back by I think a judge would be hard pressed
Speaker 1: to grant custody for someone who was named as a
Speaker 1: defendant in a multiple homicide case, even if he is acquitted.
Speaker 1: You just don't know. But I'll tell you what, that's
Speaker 1: not going to be decided, I don't think for for
Speaker 1: many years to come. Even if he let's say he
Speaker 1: really didn't do it and he's being held, you know,
Speaker 1: wrongly accused, that he never gets to see his daughter,
Speaker 1: against never see her. Dabt like that even alone is
Speaker 1: such a tragedy. If well if there's no evidence or
Speaker 1: no strong evidence against him and he's acquitted and people
Speaker 1: are scratching her head thinking well, why was he even indicted.
Speaker 1: I suppose he would have a chance then, but you
Speaker 1: never know, I mean, you never know what happens in
Speaker 1: a criminal trial. The custody battle is one that will
Speaker 1: probably outlive the criminal case. That will probably go on
Speaker 1: for years and years and years. I mean, obviously it
Speaker 1: was a contentious subject before the murders. Again many believe
Speaker 1: that that was the primary motive, but that will continue
Speaker 1: to go on. They'll probably be numerous court hearings for
Speaker 1: years until that's finally settled. And that's a shame because
Speaker 1: the children, if they're not already hurt, which of course
Speaker 1: they are, they're going to continue to be victimized, probably
Speaker 1: for a long time to come. Susan from nu Vienna,
Speaker 1: Ohio asked us when the trials are supposed to begin,
Speaker 1: and that's an interesting question. Obviously the Wagners did waive
Speaker 1: their right to a speedy trial, but now because of COVID,
Speaker 1: it seems that the trials have been delayed. Billy Wagner's attorney,
Speaker 1: Mark Collins, said that the trials have been put on hold. Angela,
Speaker 1: Wagner's attorney said something different. He said the trials were
Speaker 1: supposed to begin this fall, which would be very soon,
Speaker 1: if not imminent. So it's unclear about what is exactly
Speaker 1: is happening, but we do know that right now the
Speaker 1: pre trial hearings are happening. George Wagner just had his
Speaker 1: last week, so things are starting to move in the
Speaker 1: right direction. There was an attempt to be made to
Speaker 1: get him released on bond. Seems very different than somebody
Speaker 1: being held in solitary confinement with a Bible waiting for
Speaker 1: their last days. These are death penalty trials, you know,
Speaker 1: that's not to be underestimated. For separate capital punishment trials
Speaker 1: are a big deal, and one surely affects the other,
Speaker 1: and any inconsistency from one to the next has to
Speaker 1: be a paramount to all I would imagine, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. That's a good question,
Speaker 1: because they are four separate trials, so I don't know
Speaker 1: actually if one has bearing on the other. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, you'd assume the evidence some of it will
Speaker 1: be similar, but it's all going to be dependent. For example,
Speaker 1: I remember reading that DNA. There is confirmed that the
Speaker 1: prosecution has DNA evidence. What that evidence is, we don't know,
Speaker 1: but there's been made mention of it. So you know,
Speaker 1: the fact that there's differences in DNA is going to
Speaker 1: change the course of those four trials completely. I was
Speaker 1: just suggesting that those four trials, I guess the narrative
Speaker 1: from each of the Wagner members family members has to
Speaker 1: be pretty buttoned up. If there's one inconsistency between Jake's
Speaker 1: story and his mom's story or their dad's story, that's
Speaker 1: a big deal. Let's stop here for another quick break.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. You will fail. So
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Speaker 1: call from Belfast, Ohio, who asked us if something happens
Speaker 1: and the Wagners are found not guilty, how do we
Speaker 1: think the town would react to them being back in
Speaker 1: piked In and would they be able to stay in
Speaker 1: the town. It's a it's a good question, and based
Speaker 1: on what we've heard and the reaction to the Wagners,
Speaker 1: I personally think it would be really hard for them
Speaker 1: to stay and piked In. You know, we talked to
Speaker 1: a Wagner family member who wished to remain anonymous, who
Speaker 1: gave us some pretty horrible details about what happened to
Speaker 1: them before the arrests. That being said, you know, Frederica
Speaker 1: does have a lot of land in piked In, and
Speaker 1: they have a lot of ties to the community, so
Speaker 1: they might that might be where they would call home.
Speaker 1: Fred Rika Wagner is also an interesting piece to this puzzle.
Speaker 1: By all accounts, she's the great matriarch of the Wagner Empire.
Speaker 1: And you know, she looks like such a beautiful grandmother,
Speaker 1: like you would conjure up in your head or if
Speaker 1: you were casting a movie, that you wouldn't believe somebody
Speaker 1: could look so perfect. She was this little black lace,
Speaker 1: not a veil over her face. It's sort of like
Speaker 1: an overlay, but it's really a look that makes you think, oh,
Speaker 1: she could never be involved. And she's so beloved by
Speaker 1: the town and has done so many charitable things. That's
Speaker 1: a real cross section of opinion by so many. Some
Speaker 1: people say that she is a pure saint, the kindest,
Speaker 1: the nicest, the most genuine, the most charitable human that
Speaker 1: has ever walked the earth, and others say she's downright wicked.
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, there's two sides to every coin, and
Speaker 1: I think both of what you said bears out. It
Speaker 1: really depends on what your perspective is. If you are
Speaker 1: one of the people who Frederica Wagner has helped along
Speaker 1: the way and provided food and assistance. You are going
Speaker 1: to see the godly woman that so many people speak of.
Speaker 1: And if you are one of the people who were
Speaker 1: renting land that you were supposed to be buying at
Speaker 1: the end of it, and then you allegedly had that
Speaker 1: land pulled out from under you and revert back to Frederica,
Speaker 1: then you're going to feel very very differently. Both things
Speaker 1: are true, both things are true. That's I guess what's
Speaker 1: so complicated about this. So you know, discovery continues, and
Speaker 1: these trials I think would be set sooner than later.
Speaker 1: I would imagine the hope the defense of the Wagners
Speaker 1: was trying to move the trial outside of Piketon because
Speaker 1: getting twelve unbiased jurors might be challenging, and they were
Speaker 1: ultimately to that privilege. That's kind of a strike against
Speaker 1: the defense. What we have heard from the prosecution is
Speaker 1: that they are accumulating a lot of evidence at this point,
Speaker 1: and much of it we can't get our hands on,
Speaker 1: So they've been pretty tight lipped outside of the silencers,
Speaker 1: the vests, the shoes that were bought at Walmart, DNA
Speaker 1: evidence that's you said to be found at one, if
Speaker 1: not multiple crime scenes, but outside of that, they've kept
Speaker 1: a lot of things to themselves, understandably so, and that
Speaker 1: I think we're going to hear about sooner than later.
Speaker 1: Because who goes first, I think is very interesting. Who
Speaker 1: do you guys think will be up first? You know,
Speaker 1: I'll go just by the arraignment, and I believe I'm
Speaker 1: correct that Jake Wagner was the first of the Wagners
Speaker 1: to be arraigned, So I would bet Jake. And a
Speaker 1: lot of the thought is that, you know, since custody
Speaker 1: allegedly is at the center, so I say, Jake Wagner.
Speaker 1: I was going to say that the eldest son, George Wagner,
Speaker 1: would be up first, but wow, what a shocker if
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner is up first, because then, to me, there's
Speaker 1: no question that his involvement with the Rodents is at
Speaker 1: the center of these trials at the bare minimum, whether
Speaker 1: he did or did not do it, That one piece
Speaker 1: would follow all of the trials, I would imagine. Reach
Speaker 1: out to us on our social media outlets with questions.
Speaker 1: We're on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at pikedon Massacre. We
Speaker 1: look forward to answering your questions and upcoming episodes Pikedon
Speaker 1: Massacre is executive produced by Stephanie Laidecker and me Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional
Speaker 1: producing by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The Pikedon Massacre
Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more
Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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