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Download the 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:50.960 unstapp and use the code I Heart fifty at sign 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.040 up to receive a fifty dollar bonus when you find 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:55.520 your account. That's code I heard fifty. When you sign 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.120 up at unest dot coo for fifty dollars bonus. See 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:03.000 terms and conditions at unest dot COO. Welcome to the 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:06.120 piked In Massacre, Episode nine. We're going to do something 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:10.440 a little bit different for this episode and go into 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:14.760 the process of producing the podcast and also answer some 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:18.799 questions we've been getting over social media. I'm Courtney Armstrong. 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.320 I work at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.200 We're finally together again, distance but together. Yeah, because of 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.600 COVID we've all been recording separately, but we're actually in 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.480 the same socially distanced space today for the first time 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:41.000 in many months, and we are sitting outside to keep safe. 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.160 One of the things a bunch of people have asked 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:50.440 about is how we came upon this case, and Jeff, 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:51.880 do you want to speak to that, because you really 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.400 were the impetus for it. Yeah. At Katie Studios, we 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.000 do a lot of true crime programming, and so we're 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:01.280 always kind of on the lookout for interesting cases that 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:04.760 are layered and complex that could make for you know, 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.880 compelling television documentaries. And you know, when it first happened, 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:11.520 when the Rodents were first murdered, it got a fair 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:13.840 amount of attention at the beginning, and as we've talked about, 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:16.720 pretty quickly, the media kind of backed off when there 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:20.840 weren't arrests, and that was kind of all there was 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:23.520 to it in terms of our knowledge. And then in 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.080 June of twenty eighteen, I read an article by Jeff Winkler, 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.200 who you've all heard during this podcast, that he wrote 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:32.359 for The Outline, a long form article about the crime 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.000 that really he did such a good job of laying 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:38.920 out the story and what happened and the people involved, 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.480 and it immediately struck a chord with me, just the 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.480 human element of it all and how tragic it was. 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.200 And so reached out to Jeff Winkler and started the 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.000 conversation about figuring out how we could make this some 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.600 sort of long form documentary. Yeah. So here's an excerpt 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.080 of him talking about piked in and part of what 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:00.880 drew us all in. So I remember that very specifically. 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:03.960 It was a big media story for about two weeks, 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.640 and you know, everybody from all overcame to cover it, 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.840 all over the world, and then they left and the 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.200 murder was still insolved. How did you end up writing 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.200 because you wrote a pretty big piece. What was told 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.080 me about that? I wrote a piece about a year later. 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.760 This was, after all the sort of fanfare and media 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:28.760 attention went away, and I went to Piketon a year later, 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.200 almost to the day, about a year or two the 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.839 day of the killings, and I wanted to see how 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:40.480 the town was doing, both the community and the people 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:42.839 who were directly involved in it, because at that point 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:47.840 there was still no suspects, no one was really arrested 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.040 or being prosecuted for the crime, and it was the 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:55.479 largest unsolved murder in Ohio's history, and the second largest 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.479 mass murder that year in the United States, after the 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:06.080 Poles shoot being in Florida. We'd been tracking this case 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.440 since it happened, and when we first got involved, the 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:11.320 Wagners hadn't been arrested or weren't even being looked at 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:14.960 as suspects by detectives. So we pitched the idea of 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:18.400 this documentary to Rod Asa and Corey Abraham, who are 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:22.520 executives at NBC Universal's Oxygen Network, And really the spirit 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.400 of that was that this huge crime had occurred to 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.880 the poor road In family and the killer was at 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:31.719 large and they were still out there. Cut to the 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:36.200 Wagners get arrested, and our executives at Oxygen call us 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.680 and put us on a plane to piked In. Yeah, 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:40.880 I mean, let's talk about we've spent I mean, I 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.480 think between the three of us weeks in piked In 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.360 over the course of many trips, and yeah, you guys 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:47.760 spent more time there than I did. So I'd be 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.120 curious what your take on it is. My first time 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.479 was when we were going to do the doc and 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.440 I flew by myself, I think on Thanksgiving and met 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:00.880 Jeff Winkler, who of course wrote this an article, who 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.600 we were you know, just talking to and brainstorming with. 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.400 You know, initially, this trip, Stephanie that you're talking about 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.640 was literally nine days after the arrest. You know, the 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.840 Wagoners were arrested on November thirteen, twenty eighteen. She's on 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.560 a plane on November twenty second, and so it was 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:19.960 really soon after that the team was there, and I 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:22.080 mean the town wasn't I think a form of shell 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.000 shock at that point. I think the mood in the 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.920 town was really palpable. There were something very big about 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:31.240 what was happening around us. You know, we've said this before. 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:34.080 It is a very small town, two thousand people, so 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.680 to have eight people murdered out of those two thousand. 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:40.720 Every single person in the town is affected to some 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.279 degree or knows somebody six degrees of separation who was 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.760 either on the Wagoner side or on the road And side. 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:52.279 So everyone was very affected, and asking questions about this 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.839 huge crime at that time, you know, can be hard 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.840 because it's a sensitive topic. And it seems as though 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:02.760 the time of Piked, and specifically in many of the 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:07.040 family members of victims or on the Wagner side that 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.040 in previous incarnations had been treated very poorly by the press, 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.960 So we wanted to be very sensitive about that. Yeah. 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:15.440 Another thing Jeff Winkler talked to us about was his 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.320 visit in twenty seventeen. I think this thing that stood 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:20.840 up for me when I went in to visit was 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.320 just how human everyone was. And I know that sounds 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:26.440 a little tripe, but I mean I grew up in 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.880 the Ozarks in Arkansas, So coming up from the Ozarks 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:33.000 and then spend time in Texas and Tennessee, this is 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.720 where I think the stories are and the coverage needs 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.920 to be done more. And you know, when an initial 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.320 coverage happened, you know, it was just these sort of 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.880 footage and quotes from sad sort of backwoods people is 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.840 how they're perceived. But everyone there is full of faith 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:58.680 and humor, and you know, real sort of American mentality. 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:01.840 People I met there who had family members still had 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.120 a sort of a grim humor about things. So it 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:06.840 was a way of coping. And people found faith in 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.880 the local church. And you find these sort of avenues 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:14.760 that people from anywhere find to grieve and to sort 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:16.120 of move on. And that was I think that was 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:21.720 the biggest thing when I went there. Jeff Wickler ended 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:23.920 up becoming the greatest. We popped in a car and 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.280 drove I don't know, probably fifteen hours a day door 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:32.040 to door to various people's homes between Kentucky and Ohio. 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.640 You know, Jeff Winkler, he knew this area. He'd been 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.760 to piked in many times prior, so he had already 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:42.360 been there and had the lay of the land. I hadn't. 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.120 And you know, we've been tracking this case from far 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:49.120 far away. It's articles, it's newspapers, it's news clippings. You know, 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:53.680 you develop this relationship with the victims and the victims families, 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:57.679 and now they accused simply by staring at their photos 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:03.800 excessively and obsessively so for me getting there was fascinating, 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:06.480 even just getting off the plane and renting a car 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:08.760 to drive to piked In and seeing the water tower 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.600 as I had seen in so many photos, and wanting 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.520 to kind of understand better where the high school was, 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.800 and you know, where everybody lived, and I just remember 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:22.880 being emotional, and it's hard. You know, we make prime 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:25.359 shows for a living, but then sometimes when you're submerged 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.240 in the place and you know what the grief is 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:31.800 that everybody is experiencing on the victim's side and on 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:36.600 the accused side, it's a town ripped apart. And to 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:38.439 Jeff's point, there's not a single person at the gas 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.960 station or at the walmart or at the local restaurant 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.520 that isn't either a thought, you know, isn't talking about 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:49.480 it or thinking about it. To your point about showing 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.520 up and just knocking on doors. As TV producers were 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.640 used to being able to call people and book some 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:57.960 of these shows over the phone, piked In, I think 0:09:58.040 --> 0:09:59.880 is a little bit of an outlier. You know, there's 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:01.920 no a lot of cell service there. People live in 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.200 the hills and it's hard to get someone on the phone, 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:07.320 and so really the only way to do it was 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.880 to show up, knock on the door, you know, with 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:12.480 a smart hill and a box of cookies or a pie, 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.360 and just hope that people would a answer the door 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.520 and be let us in, which luckily the town of 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:20.920 piked In was really, for the most part, very kind 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.920 and receptive to us as complete outsiders being there. Yeah, 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.040 the first place I went was Rita Newcome's home and 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:34.360 knocked on her door, and she was lovely invited me 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:36.360 right in. You know, she was in fact wearing an 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:38.800 ankle bracelet because she had recently been released, and to 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.760 be truthful, at the moment, I didn't realize how embedded 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:47.640 she potentially was in this investigation. The first morning I 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:54.079 was there was the arrangement of Jake Wagner, and there's 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:58.720 an interesting experience. The courtroom was packed and completely silent. 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.240 It was delayed by almost forty minutes. It was supposed 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.680 to be nine o'clock start, and I've never sat in 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:08.800 a more silent room filled with people. And it was 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:14.320 a very interesting experience seeing Jake walk in and hearing 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:19.000 his plea and sitting near members of the Rodent family. 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.160 Were people on both sides where people on his side 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:23.920 where people on the road and side, Like, what was 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.160 your experience like, Yeah, people were definitely on both sides, 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:33.840 and the Rodents was absolutely filled and the Wagner side 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.920 was much more sparsely filled. Do you think that speaks 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:39.960 to what we've been hearing and what we've been trying 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.040 to convey with this podcast, which is that the road 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:45.800 and family was so incredibly close and as we were told, 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:50.520 family over everything. Yeah. Absolutely, and just the devastation that 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.760 ripped through that family is a little hard to comprehend. 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:59.080 So people were definitely there, people who were definitely very sad. 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.559 It was very tragic, and but they were there showing 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.640 their support. I remember when Courtney was at that arrayment 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.760 like calling you just to see what was it like. 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.200 You know, again, we have these visions in our head 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:15.280 based solely on photographs of the Wagner family, Jake Wagner 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.280 being the youngest, just to kind of be able to 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:21.640 see him face to face air quotes, or at least 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:23.440 kind of look in his eyes to see, you know, 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.000 does that look like a person who could actually commit 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.360 something so heinous? And the truth is it's really an 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:36.640 unanswerable question. A lot of people understandably, a lot of 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:41.360 listeners have asked about where the children are now. Kylie, 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.320 who is Hannah Roden's newborn baby, is with her father, 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.120 Charlie Gilly. She was the infant that was just born 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.840 five days prior to Hannah Roden. I would say for 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:51.880 all of us too, and this probably would apply to 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.079 listeners too. The fact that there were such small infants 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.720 and young children left alive at the scene just kind 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:02.960 of puts a dagger in your heart. So unfortunately, Sophia Wagner, 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.839 who is the child of Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin, 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.320 is in the care of Child Protective Services, and that's 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.679 something I know the Rodin family is unhappy about, and 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.640 I know specifically in the Wagner side of it, Deray 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.280 is unhappy about. I think the feeling is that there 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:22.880 are people who are blood related to Sophia who could 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.240 give her a really good home right now. So here's 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.440 a little bit from Deray about that. So you were 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.439 actually hoping to like take Sophia in and give her, 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.440 you know, a safe and comfortable home while all this 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.200 is happening. Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm a I'm a professional. 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:41.800 I mean I take in children with trauma that's my profession, 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.000 that's what I like to do. I have two boys 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:52.040 with me now who have autism. They're excellent children, they 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:56.560 are well loved, their proof in the pudding, and we 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.720 would have had a really good time, so they couldn't 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:00.560 even like you couldn't even see so Fia if you 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:03.480 wanted to, I could not. All I want her to 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:05.520 know is she's loved. I don't want her to think 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:13.400 anything's wrong. So something yeah, that we've been asked about 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:17.359 by a fair amount of listeners was how the podcast 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:21.080 has affected the people that we interviewed and the people 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.320 that have spoken out about it. And I think for 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.480 the most part, it's been pretty positive in terms of 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.920 who we've talked to in their experience in piked It 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.800 Living and piked In Barb for example, told us that 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.200 she felt like the podcast represented the town well and 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.760 the story in a fair way. Angie Montgomery, who we 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:43.440 talked about her cousin Curtis and Jenny's case, felt happy 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:45.800 that we were finally shedding a light on something that 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.320 people haven't really been talking about. That was a really 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.800 important piece of this for us, because we care deeply 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.120 about piked In first and foremost we've been there many, 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.960 many times. The town has been extremely kind to us 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:58.880 at a time that not everyone has been that kind 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:03.960 to them, and making sure that we weren't coming across 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.680 in any universe as being insensitive to the victims and 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.520 the victims families, understanding that there's a gag order, understanding 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:16.600 that anything somebody says could have impacts on upcoming trials. 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.960 It's important. The stakes are actually extremely high, and we're 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.240 wildly aware of that, but it's hard not to be 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.440 emotional about it, or to get emotionally attached to an answer, 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:28.600 or you know, want to really understand who the boogeyman is, 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:33.760 who's responsible for something so horrible, And as a result, 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.880 I think every time we get involved deeper into this case, 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.000 we want to know more. Is it possible that, hopefully 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.960 the mom isn't involved, This couldn't be if Angela Wagner 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:45.600 was at the center of it. Is it because she 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.240 was being forced to be so by her husband or 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:51.960 is that just a lie? Or was Angela wildly manipulative 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.520 and coerced her boys in the spirit of defending her 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.280 family and defending her Sophia. And if that's the case, 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:02.600 what a silly plan because now you're never going to 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.360 see your boys again. You've all been separated. If convicted, 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.160 you'll never cross paths unless one of you folds on 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:12.040 the other in court. And with four people, you know, 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.400 if indeed they are deemed guilty, there's the question that 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.840 we raised a few episodes ago about the informant and 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:23.040 who that is. There is an informant who's been written about, 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.240 and if it is one of the four, you know, 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.640 if they've turned on the rest of their family, how 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:32.080 that would bear out, because it would be hard to 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:39.760 manage that guilt for years and years. Let's stop here 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:41.920 for a quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment. 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.840 Like many of us, you might think identity theft will 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.920 never happen to you, but consider this. There's a new 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.360 identity theft victim every three seconds in the US. That's 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.160 over fifteen million people by the end of this year, 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.520 equal to the populations of New York, Los Angeles and 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:03.640 HIC I'll go combined. 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Visit CNN 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:57.919 underscore dot com to find your perfect match today. So 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:03.520 just over four years, people, in my opinion, packed mentality 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.479 would suggest that at some point the night of the murders, 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:08.280 if the Wagners did in fact do it, that there 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:11.360 was a heavy there was somebody who was the real leader, right, 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.240 and that the real leader reminds everybody, this is why 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:16.000 we have to do this. We're protecting our own or 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.240 we're protecting our family, or we're protecting Sophia, and to 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:23.680 some degree everybody follows along. Again, at four different times, 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:27.159 somebody could have changed their vote. Who knows what the 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:31.280 circumstances of were that night. Although we're desperate too now 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:36.920 add four years, four years separated, there's zero chance that 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:39.679 all four of them will stick to the exact same story, 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.840 not have the exact same amount of guilt, like somebody's 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.520 going to crack. If that's the informant, it makes a 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.080 ton of sense. And if that's the informant, who is 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:54.920 either trying to spare themselves or spare their family somehow. 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.639 That to me would make a lot of sense. The 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:01.560 fact that George Wagner is requesting of Bible and requesting 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:05.119 solitary confinement for lengthy periods of time, to me, has 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:08.520 always been a bit of a tell you know, Jake, Yes, 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:10.760 you're caught up. If in fact this is true, that 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.440 you need to have custody of your child and you're 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.679 heartbroken and the love of your life is dating somebody 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:18.720 else and just had a baby with somebody else, and 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.159 it's filled with passion. It's a passion kill. We make 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:25.639 crime shows for a living. Oftentimes it's love or money 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.840 or revenge. Defending your family. This checks all of those boxes. 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.760 But that was then. Now add four years realizing you're 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.960 not around your daughter any longer, you've committed mass murder 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:41.040 from which you can never go back. Somebody has to crack, 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:48.480 is my point. Just as a legal reminder, Angela, Billy Jake, 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:52.560 and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:55.920 mother Rita Joe Nukam and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica were 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:59.560 both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucombe was 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:03.200 also charge with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty, 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.639 and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt has proven. 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:10.280 Can we talk about one thing that has always I'm 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:12.160 going to speak for all of us, but is the 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:14.520 thing in my head that I can never get out 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.199 of it in terms of whether or not we believe, 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:20.600 which frankly matters for nothing if the Wagoners are in 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:25.760 fact guilty or not. It's the hacking. Why were they 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:29.720 hacking the Rodent family for as long as they were? 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.800 And according to the official documents that we have seen, 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:37.160 it has been reported about also that in fact they 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:39.840 were busting into all of their social media Why in 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:42.120 such a mass in such a big way too, It's 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:44.119 not as though it was. It doesn't appear to be 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.520 jump in if I'm incorrect. It doesn't appear that, say, 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:52.760 for example, Jake was hacking Hannah Rodin's Facebook because he 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:56.000 was wildly jealous about her new relationship, or that she 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:59.840 had moved on in a new relationship. That is terrible 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:03.480 to do under any circumstance. But that seems like a 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:06.960 young person's effort. But it doesn't seem like that was 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:10.560