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That's credomobile dot com 19 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: Code Podcast fifty. Since her role as White House correspondent, 20 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: Caitlyn Collins has never been afraid to dicty. She's a reliable, 21 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: deeply sourced reporter and is always willing to hold the 22 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: powerful accountable. 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We're going to do something 40 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: a little bit different for this episode and go into 41 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: the process of producing the podcast and also answer some 42 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 1: questions we've been getting over social media. I'm Courtney Armstrong. 43 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: I work at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. 44 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: We're finally together again, distance but together. Yeah, because of 45 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: COVID we've all been recording separately, but we're actually in 46 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: the same socially distanced space today for the first time 47 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: in many months, and we are sitting outside to keep safe. 48 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: One of the things a bunch of people have asked 49 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: about is how we came upon this case, and Jeff, 50 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: do you want to speak to that, because you really 51 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: were the impetus for it. Yeah. At Katie Studios, we 52 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: do a lot of true crime programming, and so we're 53 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: always kind of on the lookout for interesting cases that 54 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: are layered and complex that could make for you know, 55 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: compelling television documentaries. And you know, when it first happened, 56 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: when the Rodents were first murdered, it got a fair 57 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: amount of attention at the beginning, and as we've talked about, 58 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: pretty quickly, the media kind of backed off when there 59 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: weren't arrests, and that was kind of all there was 60 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: to it in terms of our knowledge. And then in 61 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: June of twenty eighteen, I read an article by Jeff Winkler, 62 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: who you've all heard during this podcast, that he wrote 63 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: for The Outline, a long form article about the crime 64 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: that really he did such a good job of laying 65 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: out the story and what happened and the people involved, 66 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: and it immediately struck a chord with me, just the 67 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: human element of it all and how tragic it was. 68 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: And so reached out to Jeff Winkler and started the 69 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: conversation about figuring out how we could make this some 70 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: sort of long form documentary. Yeah. So here's an excerpt 71 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: of him talking about piked in and part of what 72 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: drew us all in. So I remember that very specifically. 73 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: It was a big media story for about two weeks, 74 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: and you know, everybody from all overcame to cover it, 75 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: all over the world, and then they left and the 76 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: murder was still insolved. How did you end up writing 77 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: because you wrote a pretty big piece. What was told 78 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: me about that? I wrote a piece about a year later. 79 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: This was, after all the sort of fanfare and media 80 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: attention went away, and I went to Piketon a year later, 81 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: almost to the day, about a year or two the 82 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: day of the killings, and I wanted to see how 83 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: the town was doing, both the community and the people 84 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: who were directly involved in it, because at that point 85 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: there was still no suspects, no one was really arrested 86 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: or being prosecuted for the crime, and it was the 87 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: largest unsolved murder in Ohio's history, and the second largest 88 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 1: mass murder that year in the United States, after the 89 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: Poles shoot being in Florida. We'd been tracking this case 90 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: since it happened, and when we first got involved, the 91 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: Wagners hadn't been arrested or weren't even being looked at 92 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: as suspects by detectives. So we pitched the idea of 93 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: this documentary to Rod Asa and Corey Abraham, who are 94 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: executives at NBC Universal's Oxygen Network, And really the spirit 95 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: of that was that this huge crime had occurred to 96 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: the poor road In family and the killer was at 97 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: large and they were still out there. Cut to the 98 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: Wagners get arrested, and our executives at Oxygen call us 99 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: and put us on a plane to piked In. Yeah, 100 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: I mean, let's talk about we've spent I mean, I 101 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: think between the three of us weeks in piked In 102 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: over the course of many trips, and yeah, you guys 103 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: spent more time there than I did. So I'd be 104 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: curious what your take on it is. My first time 105 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: was when we were going to do the doc and 106 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: I flew by myself, I think on Thanksgiving and met 107 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: Jeff Winkler, who of course wrote this an article, who 108 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: we were you know, just talking to and brainstorming with. 109 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: You know, initially, this trip, Stephanie that you're talking about 110 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: was literally nine days after the arrest. You know, the 111 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 1: Wagoners were arrested on November thirteen, twenty eighteen. She's on 112 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: a plane on November twenty second, and so it was 113 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: really soon after that the team was there, and I 114 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: mean the town wasn't I think a form of shell 115 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: shock at that point. I think the mood in the 116 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: town was really palpable. There were something very big about 117 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: what was happening around us. You know, we've said this before. 118 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: It is a very small town, two thousand people, so 119 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: to have eight people murdered out of those two thousand. 120 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: Every single person in the town is affected to some 121 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: degree or knows somebody six degrees of separation who was 122 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: either on the Wagoner side or on the road And side. 123 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: So everyone was very affected, and asking questions about this 124 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: huge crime at that time, you know, can be hard 125 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: because it's a sensitive topic. And it seems as though 126 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: the time of Piked, and specifically in many of the 127 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: family members of victims or on the Wagner side that 128 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: in previous incarnations had been treated very poorly by the press, 129 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: So we wanted to be very sensitive about that. Yeah. 130 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: Another thing Jeff Winkler talked to us about was his 131 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: visit in twenty seventeen. I think this thing that stood 132 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: up for me when I went in to visit was 133 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: just how human everyone was. And I know that sounds 134 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: a little tripe, but I mean I grew up in 135 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: the Ozarks in Arkansas, So coming up from the Ozarks 136 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: and then spend time in Texas and Tennessee, this is 137 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: where I think the stories are and the coverage needs 138 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: to be done more. And you know, when an initial 139 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: coverage happened, you know, it was just these sort of 140 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: footage and quotes from sad sort of backwoods people is 141 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: how they're perceived. But everyone there is full of faith 142 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: and humor, and you know, real sort of American mentality. 143 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: People I met there who had family members still had 144 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: a sort of a grim humor about things. So it 145 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: was a way of coping. And people found faith in 146 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: the local church. And you find these sort of avenues 147 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: that people from anywhere find to grieve and to sort 148 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: of move on. And that was I think that was 149 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: the biggest thing when I went there. Jeff Wickler ended 150 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: up becoming the greatest. We popped in a car and 151 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: drove I don't know, probably fifteen hours a day door 152 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: to door to various people's homes between Kentucky and Ohio. 153 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: You know, Jeff Winkler, he knew this area. He'd been 154 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: to piked in many times prior, so he had already 155 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: been there and had the lay of the land. I hadn't. 156 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: And you know, we've been tracking this case from far 157 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: far away. It's articles, it's newspapers, it's news clippings. You know, 158 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: you develop this relationship with the victims and the victims families, 159 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: and now they accused simply by staring at their photos 160 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: excessively and obsessively so for me getting there was fascinating, 161 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: even just getting off the plane and renting a car 162 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: to drive to piked In and seeing the water tower 163 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: as I had seen in so many photos, and wanting 164 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: to kind of understand better where the high school was, 165 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: and you know, where everybody lived, and I just remember 166 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: being emotional, and it's hard. You know, we make prime 167 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,359 Speaker 1: shows for a living, but then sometimes when you're submerged 168 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: in the place and you know what the grief is 169 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: that everybody is experiencing on the victim's side and on 170 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: the accused side, it's a town ripped apart. And to 171 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: Jeff's point, there's not a single person at the gas 172 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: station or at the walmart or at the local restaurant 173 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: that isn't either a thought, you know, isn't talking about 174 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: it or thinking about it. To your point about showing 175 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: up and just knocking on doors. As TV producers were 176 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: used to being able to call people and book some 177 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: of these shows over the phone, piked In, I think 178 00:09:58,040 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: is a little bit of an outlier. You know, there's 179 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: no a lot of cell service there. People live in 180 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: the hills and it's hard to get someone on the phone, 181 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: and so really the only way to do it was 182 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: to show up, knock on the door, you know, with 183 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: a smart hill and a box of cookies or a pie, 184 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: and just hope that people would a answer the door 185 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: and be let us in, which luckily the town of 186 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: piked In was really, for the most part, very kind 187 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: and receptive to us as complete outsiders being there. Yeah, 188 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: the first place I went was Rita Newcome's home and 189 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: knocked on her door, and she was lovely invited me 190 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: right in. You know, she was in fact wearing an 191 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: ankle bracelet because she had recently been released, and to 192 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: be truthful, at the moment, I didn't realize how embedded 193 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: she potentially was in this investigation. The first morning I 194 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: was there was the arrangement of Jake Wagner, and there's 195 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: an interesting experience. The courtroom was packed and completely silent. 196 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: It was delayed by almost forty minutes. It was supposed 197 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: to be nine o'clock start, and I've never sat in 198 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: a more silent room filled with people. And it was 199 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: a very interesting experience seeing Jake walk in and hearing 200 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: his plea and sitting near members of the Rodent family. 201 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: Were people on both sides where people on his side 202 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: where people on the road and side, Like, what was 203 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: your experience like, Yeah, people were definitely on both sides, 204 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: and the Rodents was absolutely filled and the Wagner side 205 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: was much more sparsely filled. Do you think that speaks 206 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: to what we've been hearing and what we've been trying 207 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: to convey with this podcast, which is that the road 208 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: and family was so incredibly close and as we were told, 209 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: family over everything. Yeah. Absolutely, and just the devastation that 210 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: ripped through that family is a little hard to comprehend. 211 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: So people were definitely there, people who were definitely very sad. 212 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: It was very tragic, and but they were there showing 213 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: their support. I remember when Courtney was at that arrayment 214 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: like calling you just to see what was it like. 215 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: You know, again, we have these visions in our head 216 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: based solely on photographs of the Wagner family, Jake Wagner 217 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: being the youngest, just to kind of be able to 218 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: see him face to face air quotes, or at least 219 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: kind of look in his eyes to see, you know, 220 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: does that look like a person who could actually commit 221 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: something so heinous? And the truth is it's really an 222 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: unanswerable question. A lot of people understandably, a lot of 223 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: listeners have asked about where the children are now. Kylie, 224 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: who is Hannah Roden's newborn baby, is with her father, 225 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: Charlie Gilly. She was the infant that was just born 226 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: five days prior to Hannah Roden. I would say for 227 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: all of us too, and this probably would apply to 228 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 1: listeners too. The fact that there were such small infants 229 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: and young children left alive at the scene just kind 230 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: of puts a dagger in your heart. So unfortunately, Sophia Wagner, 231 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 1: who is the child of Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin, 232 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: is in the care of Child Protective Services, and that's 233 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: something I know the Rodin family is unhappy about, and 234 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: I know specifically in the Wagner side of it, Deray 235 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: is unhappy about. I think the feeling is that there 236 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: are people who are blood related to Sophia who could 237 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: give her a really good home right now. So here's 238 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: a little bit from Deray about that. So you were 239 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: actually hoping to like take Sophia in and give her, 240 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: you know, a safe and comfortable home while all this 241 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: is happening. Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm a I'm a professional. 242 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: I mean I take in children with trauma that's my profession, 243 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: that's what I like to do. I have two boys 244 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: with me now who have autism. They're excellent children, they 245 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: are well loved, their proof in the pudding, and we 246 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: would have had a really good time, so they couldn't 247 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: even like you couldn't even see so Fia if you 248 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: wanted to, I could not. All I want her to 249 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: know is she's loved. I don't want her to think 250 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: anything's wrong. So something yeah, that we've been asked about 251 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,359 Speaker 1: by a fair amount of listeners was how the podcast 252 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: has affected the people that we interviewed and the people 253 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: that have spoken out about it. And I think for 254 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: the most part, it's been pretty positive in terms of 255 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: who we've talked to in their experience in piked It 256 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: Living and piked In Barb for example, told us that 257 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: she felt like the podcast represented the town well and 258 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: the story in a fair way. Angie Montgomery, who we 259 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: talked about her cousin Curtis and Jenny's case, felt happy 260 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: that we were finally shedding a light on something that 261 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: people haven't really been talking about. That was a really 262 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: important piece of this for us, because we care deeply 263 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: about piked In first and foremost we've been there many, 264 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: many times. The town has been extremely kind to us 265 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: at a time that not everyone has been that kind 266 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: to them, and making sure that we weren't coming across 267 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: in any universe as being insensitive to the victims and 268 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: the victims families, understanding that there's a gag order, understanding 269 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: that anything somebody says could have impacts on upcoming trials. 270 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: It's important. The stakes are actually extremely high, and we're 271 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: wildly aware of that, but it's hard not to be 272 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: emotional about it, or to get emotionally attached to an answer, 273 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: or you know, want to really understand who the boogeyman is, 274 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: who's responsible for something so horrible, And as a result, 275 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: I think every time we get involved deeper into this case, 276 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: we want to know more. Is it possible that, hopefully 277 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: the mom isn't involved, This couldn't be if Angela Wagner 278 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: was at the center of it. Is it because she 279 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: was being forced to be so by her husband or 280 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: is that just a lie? Or was Angela wildly manipulative 281 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: and coerced her boys in the spirit of defending her 282 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: family and defending her Sophia. And if that's the case, 283 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: what a silly plan because now you're never going to 284 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: see your boys again. You've all been separated. If convicted, 285 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: you'll never cross paths unless one of you folds on 286 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: the other in court. And with four people, you know, 287 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: if indeed they are deemed guilty, there's the question that 288 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: we raised a few episodes ago about the informant and 289 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: who that is. There is an informant who's been written about, 290 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: and if it is one of the four, you know, 291 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: if they've turned on the rest of their family, how 292 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: that would bear out, because it would be hard to 293 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: manage that guilt for years and years. Let's stop here 294 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: for a quick commercial break. 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Key Soul Care is 320 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: created by Alicia keys At, a leading dermatologists to honor 321 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: the connection between skin and soul. Learn more at keysoulcare 322 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: dot com. You will fail. So what everybody does, but 323 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: your jim, your watch, your yoga pants, they pretend you won't. 324 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: So when you miss a day, eat the pancakes, give 325 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: up on a workout, you failed. Seriously, what the hell 326 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: We're Body. We've been a part of that too, but 327 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: not anymore at Body or rejecting perfection and embracing reality, 328 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: not in a Pizza Monday kind of way, in a 329 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: loving your whole life kind of way, in a this 330 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: workout is fun and it's okay if I take a 331 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: week off kind of way, in an I'm eating healthy 332 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: and it's okay if I indulge kind of way, in 333 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: a I like myself. No matter what kind of way. Yeah, 334 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: you will fail. We all will. But we're not going 335 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: to let that be the end. Now see that we're 336 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: already making progress, So let's keep going. 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Visit CNN 346 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 1: underscore dot com to find your perfect match today. So 347 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: just over four years, people, in my opinion, packed mentality 348 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 1: would suggest that at some point the night of the murders, 349 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: if the Wagners did in fact do it, that there 350 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 1: was a heavy there was somebody who was the real leader, right, 351 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: and that the real leader reminds everybody, this is why 352 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: we have to do this. We're protecting our own or 353 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: we're protecting our family, or we're protecting Sophia, and to 354 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: some degree everybody follows along. Again, at four different times, 355 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: somebody could have changed their vote. Who knows what the 356 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: circumstances of were that night. Although we're desperate too now 357 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: add four years, four years separated, there's zero chance that 358 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: all four of them will stick to the exact same story, 359 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: not have the exact same amount of guilt, like somebody's 360 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: going to crack. If that's the informant, it makes a 361 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: ton of sense. And if that's the informant, who is 362 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: either trying to spare themselves or spare their family somehow. 363 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: That to me would make a lot of sense. The 364 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: fact that George Wagner is requesting of Bible and requesting 365 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: solitary confinement for lengthy periods of time, to me, has 366 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: always been a bit of a tell you know, Jake, Yes, 367 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: you're caught up. If in fact this is true, that 368 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: you need to have custody of your child and you're 369 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: heartbroken and the love of your life is dating somebody 370 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: else and just had a baby with somebody else, and 371 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: it's filled with passion. It's a passion kill. We make 372 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: crime shows for a living. Oftentimes it's love or money 373 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: or revenge. Defending your family. This checks all of those boxes. 374 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: But that was then. Now add four years realizing you're 375 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: not around your daughter any longer, you've committed mass murder 376 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: from which you can never go back. Somebody has to crack, 377 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: is my point. Just as a legal reminder, Angela, Billy Jake, 378 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's 379 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: mother Rita Joe Nukam and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica were 380 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucombe was 381 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: also charge with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty, 382 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt has proven. 383 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: Can we talk about one thing that has always I'm 384 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: going to speak for all of us, but is the 385 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: thing in my head that I can never get out 386 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 1: of it in terms of whether or not we believe, 387 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: which frankly matters for nothing if the Wagoners are in 388 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: fact guilty or not. It's the hacking. Why were they 389 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: hacking the Rodent family for as long as they were? 390 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: And according to the official documents that we have seen, 391 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: it has been reported about also that in fact they 392 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: were busting into all of their social media Why in 393 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: such a mass in such a big way too, It's 394 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: not as though it was. It doesn't appear to be 395 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: jump in if I'm incorrect. It doesn't appear that, say, 396 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: for example, Jake was hacking Hannah Rodin's Facebook because he 397 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: was wildly jealous about her new relationship, or that she 398 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: had moved on in a new relationship. That is terrible 399 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: to do under any circumstance. But that seems like a 400 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: young person's effort. But it doesn't seem like that was 401 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: the case. It was a fairly high level surveillance operation 402 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: happening to all of them. And why. What has been 403 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: brought up in court is that it was deeply organized. 404 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: I mean, they were Excel spreadsheets, done, hundreds and hundreds 405 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: of entries about child custody. They put up cameras, and 406 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: they were in all of their computers and phones. It 407 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: was really elaborate. It was elaborate, and they were the 408 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: Wagoners were often together. So was this an activity just 409 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: because they wanted to track Hannah's relationship or like, where 410 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: were they tracking? You know? What makes the most sense 411 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: on the surface, and again allegedly, is that they were 412 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: tracking the coming and goings and tracking the property and 413 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: understanding the dogs. It did seem as though big dogs 414 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: were common, and we know for a fact that the 415 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: road in said attack dogs. Why didn't the dogs attack? 416 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: That really does make no sense. Still, However, if you 417 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: knew the dogs, and you had been to the home 418 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: many times, as certainly Jake would have been many times, 419 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: and you had an understanding of kind of how that 420 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: home worked and what their habits were, it does feel 421 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: like an indicant that the Wagners were up to no good. 422 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: If they were legitimately cyberstalking an entire family just months 423 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: prior to that family's tragic death. Clinton from Ganado, Texas 424 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: asked us why Sophia wasn't with her mom the night 425 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: of the murders and was it under unusual circumstances that 426 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: she was picked up by Jake Wagner And yeah, it's 427 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: it's up for debate why Sophia wasn't with Hannah. Jake 428 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: Wagner has admitted that he did pick Sophia up a 429 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: day earlier than he originally planned, and that so she 430 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: wasn't with her mom that fateful Friday evening. Jake Wagner 431 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: said on the record, I reckon we missed it by 432 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: just a few hours, and by it he means the murders. 433 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: And so we don't know what happened between Jake Wagner 434 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 1: and Hannah wrote in the night of the murders, or 435 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: why he told her he was picking her up early, 436 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: or why he did pick her up early, but we 437 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: do know she was supposed to be with her mom 438 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: that night, and for reasons we don't know, Jake Wagner 439 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: did take her home early. And my expectation would be 440 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: if we have texts exchanges, just based on the fact 441 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: that we know that people text so frequently because the 442 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: reception between phones can be spotty in these rural places, 443 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: there has to be some sort of a message saying 444 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: I will pick her up early or requesting to pick 445 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: her up early. I think that is another huge smoking gun, 446 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: the fact that Sophia wasn't there that day and was 447 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: picked up by Jake off of schedule. He's changed his 448 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: story on this a couple of times, and I think 449 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: this was a key place where there wasn't inconsistency about 450 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: this topic. But regardless, it is suspicious and we disagree 451 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: on that. I think things happen, and what seems the 452 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: simplest explanation to me is that Hannah had just had 453 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: a baby days before, and maybe she wanted a break 454 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: with just her infant and not a toddler. But something 455 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: we don't know. Jay from Storm like Iowa, asked us 456 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: what happens if the Wagners get off, will they get 457 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: custody of Sophia. I can only imagine that if the 458 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: Wagoners do get off, they will attempt to get back 459 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: to their normal life, and it's possible they would want 460 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: custody of Sophia, But former prosecutor Mike Allen told me 461 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: that because they were so closely linked to the murders, 462 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: it may be difficult for Jake Wagner's to obtain custody, which, 463 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: if he's innocent, is tragic to think that because he 464 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: was mixed up in this, he wouldn't be able to 465 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: get to raise his daughter. Here's an excerpt of that 466 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: conversation with Mike Allen. So let's say Jake Wagner does 467 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: get off and has proven not guilty. So do you 468 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: think he doesn't he doesn't have a chance of getting 469 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: Sophia back. It probably has a chance of getting her 470 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: back by I think a judge would be hard pressed 471 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: to grant custody for someone who was named as a 472 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: defendant in a multiple homicide case, even if he is acquitted. 473 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: You just don't know. But I'll tell you what, that's 474 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,959 Speaker 1: not going to be decided, I don't think for for 475 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: many years to come. Even if he let's say he 476 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: really didn't do it and he's being held, you know, 477 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: wrongly accused, that he never gets to see his daughter, 478 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: against never see her. Dabt like that even alone is 479 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: such a tragedy. If well if there's no evidence or 480 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: no strong evidence against him and he's acquitted and people 481 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: are scratching her head thinking well, why was he even indicted. 482 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: I suppose he would have a chance then, but you 483 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: never know, I mean, you never know what happens in 484 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: a criminal trial. The custody battle is one that will 485 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: probably outlive the criminal case. That will probably go on 486 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: for years and years and years. I mean, obviously it 487 00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 1: was a contentious subject before the murders. Again many believe 488 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: that that was the primary motive, but that will continue 489 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: to go on. They'll probably be numerous court hearings for 490 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: years until that's finally settled. And that's a shame because 491 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: the children, if they're not already hurt, which of course 492 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: they are, they're going to continue to be victimized, probably 493 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: for a long time to come. Susan from nu Vienna, 494 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: Ohio asked us when the trials are supposed to begin, 495 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: and that's an interesting question. Obviously the Wagners did waive 496 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: their right to a speedy trial, but now because of COVID, 497 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: it seems that the trials have been delayed. Billy Wagner's attorney, 498 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: Mark Collins, said that the trials have been put on hold. Angela, 499 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: Wagner's attorney said something different. He said the trials were 500 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: supposed to begin this fall, which would be very soon, 501 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: if not imminent. So it's unclear about what is exactly 502 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: is happening, but we do know that right now the 503 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: pre trial hearings are happening. George Wagner just had his 504 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: last week, so things are starting to move in the 505 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: right direction. There was an attempt to be made to 506 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: get him released on bond. Seems very different than somebody 507 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: being held in solitary confinement with a Bible waiting for 508 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: their last days. These are death penalty trials, you know, 509 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: that's not to be underestimated. For separate capital punishment trials 510 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: are a big deal, and one surely affects the other, 511 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: and any inconsistency from one to the next has to 512 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: be a paramount to all I would imagine, you know, 513 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. That's a good question, 514 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: because they are four separate trials, so I don't know 515 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: actually if one has bearing on the other. I mean, 516 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, you'd assume the evidence some of it will 517 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: be similar, but it's all going to be dependent. For example, 518 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: I remember reading that DNA. There is confirmed that the 519 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: prosecution has DNA evidence. What that evidence is, we don't know, 520 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: but there's been made mention of it. So you know, 521 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: the fact that there's differences in DNA is going to 522 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: change the course of those four trials completely. I was 523 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: just suggesting that those four trials, I guess the narrative 524 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: from each of the Wagner members family members has to 525 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: be pretty buttoned up. If there's one inconsistency between Jake's 526 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: story and his mom's story or their dad's story, that's 527 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: a big deal. Let's stop here for another quick break. 528 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. You will fail. So 529 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: what everybody does, but your jim, your watch, your yoga pants, 530 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: they pretend you won't. So when you miss a day, 531 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: eat the pancakes, give up on a workout, you failed. Seriously, 532 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: what the hell we're by We've been a part of 533 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: that too, but not anymore at body or rejecting perfection 534 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: and embracing reality. Not in a Pizza Monday kind of way, 535 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: in a loving your whole life kind of way, in 536 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: a this workout is fun and it's okay if I 537 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: take a week off kind of way, in an I'm 538 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: eating healthy and it's okay if I indulge kind of 539 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: way in a I like myself no matter what kind 540 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: of way. Yeah, you will fail, we all will. But 541 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,479 Speaker 1: we're not going to let that be the end. Now, 542 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: see that we're already making progress. So let's keep going. 543 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: We are Body. Start your free trial at body dot com. 544 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: That's Bodi dot com. Since her role as White House correspondent, 545 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: Caitlyn Collins has never been afraid to dicty. She's a reliable, 546 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: deeply sourced reporter and is always willing to hold the 547 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: powerful accountable. On her new CNN show, The Source with 548 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: Caitlyn Collins, Caitlyn is bringing that tenacious spirit to prime time. 549 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: She's chasing the facts, connecting with her rolodex of sources, 550 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: and pulling the threads of a story together right up 551 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: to the minute she goes live, so viewers are getting 552 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,239 Speaker 1: the very latest The Source with Caitlin Collins weeknights at 553 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: nine pm Eastern only on Sanna. 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Another question we got was from 586 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,800 Speaker 1: call from Belfast, Ohio, who asked us if something happens 587 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: and the Wagners are found not guilty, how do we 588 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: think the town would react to them being back in 589 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: piked In and would they be able to stay in 590 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: the town. It's a it's a good question, and based 591 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: on what we've heard and the reaction to the Wagners, 592 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: I personally think it would be really hard for them 593 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: to stay and piked In. You know, we talked to 594 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: a Wagner family member who wished to remain anonymous, who 595 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: gave us some pretty horrible details about what happened to 596 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: them before the arrests. That being said, you know, Frederica 597 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: does have a lot of land in piked In, and 598 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: they have a lot of ties to the community, so 599 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: they might that might be where they would call home. 600 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: Fred Rika Wagner is also an interesting piece to this puzzle. 601 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: By all accounts, she's the great matriarch of the Wagner Empire. 602 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: And you know, she looks like such a beautiful grandmother, 603 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: like you would conjure up in your head or if 604 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 1: you were casting a movie, that you wouldn't believe somebody 605 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: could look so perfect. She was this little black lace, 606 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: not a veil over her face. It's sort of like 607 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: an overlay, but it's really a look that makes you think, oh, 608 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: she could never be involved. And she's so beloved by 609 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: the town and has done so many charitable things. That's 610 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: a real cross section of opinion by so many. Some 611 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: people say that she is a pure saint, the kindest, 612 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: the nicest, the most genuine, the most charitable human that 613 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: has ever walked the earth, and others say she's downright wicked. 614 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, there's two sides to every coin, and 615 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: I think both of what you said bears out. It 616 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: really depends on what your perspective is. If you are 617 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 1: one of the people who Frederica Wagner has helped along 618 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 1: the way and provided food and assistance. You are going 619 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: to see the godly woman that so many people speak of. 620 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: And if you are one of the people who were 621 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: renting land that you were supposed to be buying at 622 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: the end of it, and then you allegedly had that 623 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: land pulled out from under you and revert back to Frederica, 624 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: then you're going to feel very very differently. Both things 625 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: are true, both things are true. That's I guess what's 626 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 1: so complicated about this. So you know, discovery continues, and 627 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: these trials I think would be set sooner than later. 628 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: I would imagine the hope the defense of the Wagners 629 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: was trying to move the trial outside of Piketon because 630 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: getting twelve unbiased jurors might be challenging, and they were 631 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: ultimately to that privilege. That's kind of a strike against 632 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: the defense. What we have heard from the prosecution is 633 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: that they are accumulating a lot of evidence at this point, 634 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 1: and much of it we can't get our hands on, 635 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: So they've been pretty tight lipped outside of the silencers, 636 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: the vests, the shoes that were bought at Walmart, DNA 637 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: evidence that's you said to be found at one, if 638 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,919 Speaker 1: not multiple crime scenes, but outside of that, they've kept 639 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: a lot of things to themselves, understandably so, and that 640 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: I think we're going to hear about sooner than later. 641 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: Because who goes first, I think is very interesting. Who 642 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: do you guys think will be up first? You know, 643 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 1: I'll go just by the arraignment, and I believe I'm 644 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: correct that Jake Wagner was the first of the Wagners 645 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: to be arraigned, So I would bet Jake. And a 646 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: lot of the thought is that, you know, since custody 647 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: allegedly is at the center, so I say, Jake Wagner. 648 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 1: I was going to say that the eldest son, George Wagner, 649 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: would be up first, but wow, what a shocker if 650 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner is up first, because then, to me, there's 651 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 1: no question that his involvement with the Rodents is at 652 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,760 Speaker 1: the center of these trials at the bare minimum, whether 653 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: he did or did not do it, That one piece 654 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: would follow all of the trials, I would imagine. Reach 655 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: out to us on our social media outlets with questions. 656 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 1: We're on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at pikedon Massacre. We 657 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: look forward to answering your questions and upcoming episodes Pikedon 658 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: Massacre is executive produced by Stephanie Laidecker and me Courtney Armstrong. 659 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional 660 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: producing by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The Pikedon Massacre 661 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more 662 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 663 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 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