WEBVTT - Nuisance laws — Libby Caswell BONUS 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:05.600 Hi listeners. In this bonus episode of What Happened to 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.719 Libby Caswell, I want to spend some time talking about 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:12.680 nuisance laws, what they are, how they're used, and what's 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:17.079 being done about them. The nuisance law in Independence, Missouri 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:21.200 played a pivotal role in Libby's story. You may remember 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:25.079 from episode three that Cindy's house was labeled a nuisance 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.080 after she repeatedly called nine one one to report Devon's 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:30.280 ongoing harassment. 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:35.320 I always thought nuisance was the person that didn't clean 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.800 up the trash, or mowed or grass, or had loud 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:42.520 late night parties. I didn't think it pertained to hey, 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.920 help us here, help us, this kid is egging our house. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:47.920 These you know, threatening us. 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.839 The logic of this that they were being punished for 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.760 Devon's threatening behavior confused and angered at Cindy. 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.400 Yes, it was a nuisance. It was a very big nuisance. 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:03.040 It was to us too, you know, we were struggling 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.560 to keep our daughters safe and our other two kids 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:07.800 and trying to hold down jobs, you know, at the 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:08.399 same time. 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.679 I first heard about nuisance laws in twenty seventeen, when 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:18.000 I was a reporter for the Huffington Post. I covered 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.800 a story where a woman was evicted from her home 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:25.679 and ultimately exiled from her hometown of Maplewood, Missouri, for 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:31.480 calling to report domestic violence on multiple occasions. At the time, 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.760 I interviewed Saundra Park, who was then a lawyer with 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:40.000 the ACLU. They brought a lawsuit against Maplewood, arguing that 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:44.720 their nuisance law was unconstitutional. As a result, the town 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.360 was forced to amend its nuisance ordinance so that domestic 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:52.160 violence victims could no longer be penalized for calling the police. 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.800 Sondra Park is now the head of the Civil Rights 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:59.880 Bureau of the New York State Attorney General's Office. Read 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.240 out to her recently to talk about the nuisance ordinance 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:08.040 in Independence and its effect on Libby's tragic story. Here's 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.440 our conversation, which has been edited for length and clarity. 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.560 I think most people don't even know about nuisance laws 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.480 or nuisance ordinances, so it would be great just to 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.120 hear from you a little bit of a backstory of 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.560 when and where they originated and for what purpose. 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:33.120 So nuisance laws exist around the country. There have been 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:36.400 different types of laws like this on the books for decades. 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.480 They became much more popular in the nineties as a 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:45.320 result of tough on crime type attitudes, where people started 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:49.880 penalizing minor offenses as a way of possibly getting at 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:53.480 bigger offenses, so almost like a broken windows theory. Typically, 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.320 when you see justifications of these laws, there's a simplistic 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:02.000 idea that somehow, once you start penalized owners for police 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.639 calls or for possible criminal activity occurring at the home, 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.120 that somehow the landlord or the owner can stop that 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:13.840 from occurring. And I think that's just a completely misplaced 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:18.560 idea about what the relationship between crime and the home is, 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.880 particularly if you think about the domestic violence context. Domestic violence, 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.080 by its nature is usually committed at the home, and 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:28.960 so once you have a law that is targeting the 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:31.440 fact that there's a nine to one one call or 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.600 that there's a crime occurring at the home, you are 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.360 going to punish the victim of the domestic violence. I 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:42.480 think survivors in that situation quickly learn that reaching out 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.800 for police assistance will not provide any sort of safety 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:47.920 or security to them. 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:52.200 What are the justifications for these types of policies and 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:55.240 what specific offenses are they looking to crack down on. 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:59.840 It seems like sometimes it's about noise or like track 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:05.240 or other stuff like that. But what typically when policymakers 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:07.760 have pushed these policies, like, what are they saying to 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:09.480 justify why they might be helpful. 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.160 So early on, there were a lot of ordnances that 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:16.440 were more general to physical conditions at the home, like 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.719 things like trash or dead trees. Those are not the 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.640 types of ornances that I've been concerned about or you know, 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.520 had been advocating against. What we saw was a broadening 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.560 of the scope of these ordnances over time, particularly in 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:34.440 this nineties period that I mentioned earlier, where you saw 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:39.719 things like drug offenses potentially being targeted. You saw violence 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:44.000 being targeted without any consideration of who was committing the violence, 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.200 whether the person was actually the victim of the violence. 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:48.719 Just the fact that violence had occurred at the home 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.159 was going to make that property a target for nuisance enforcement. 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:58.000 And then we also saw that rather than specifying offenses, 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:02.359 a lot of cities took a very broad approach to 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:07.080 these ordinances where they would say, any violation of federal 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.760 state city law can trigger this nuisance ordinance, and it 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.599 could be as minor as a violation, so something very 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:17.320 low level as an offense, and that is actually, I 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.839 think very typical of the way these laws operate. Now, 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.080 the other types of justifications in the domestic violence context 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.880 in particular, is we've seen victim blaming explicitly in some 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.320 of the consideration of these types of laws. So you'll 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.560 see discussion of the fact that there are repeated domestic 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:39.520 violence calls, that that's a problem for the city and 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.760 they want that to stop, and rather than actually trying 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.559 to address the underlying issues of domestic violence in the home, 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.440 they want to crack down on the fact that there 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.360 are repeated calls, and so they are taking an extremely 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:56.840 punitive approach by punishing the folks who are generating those calls. 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:02.240 I think that the other really flaws philosophy behind this 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.880 type of ordinance is that somehow, if you reduce the 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:10.040 number of police calls, that equates to reducing crime, and 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.960 we know that's just completely a huge mistake. If anything, 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:18.200 you are allowing crime to continue to occur and violence 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.560 to escalate because people no longer feel that they can 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:23.280 reach out for emergency assistance. 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.760 Do we have any research or understanding about how these 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.600 might be unequally enforced. 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:36.560 Yeah, we've done that analysis and specific communities in different ways, 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:41.680 and we've seen that they disproportionately get enforced when the 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.279 calls are about domestic violence. We definitely have seen in 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:50.080 the nuisance ordinance context where they seem to be disproportionately 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:53.720 targeting people of color, people with disabilities, as well as 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:55.560 households dealing with domestic violence. 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.320 So do you think it was intentional for domestic violence 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.760 to be considered a type of nuisance or was this 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.640 just a byproduct of the laws. 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:09.600 When I first started working on this issue, I maybe 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.640 naively thought it was more of a byproduct situation, And 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:18.200 you know, the evidence really shows that it is very 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:21.360 explicit victim blaming in a lot of communities. I'm not 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:26.000 going to say every community, but we have seen in 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:31.080 some communities they specifically target domestic violence as a nuisance offense, 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:36.440 or they specifically talk about domestic violence as a type 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.559 of offense they want to target in adopting this type 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:40.240 of ordinance. 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.680 If you've listened to the entire podcast, and I recommend 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:18.720 you do before going any further, you know that the 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:23.480 Independence Police Department used a local nuisance ordinance to pressure 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:28.680 Cindy to stop calling them despite Devon's ongoing harassment. When 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:32.000 I first read how the police described their interactions with 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:36.960 Libby and their reports, I was horrified. For example, here's 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:41.760 one incident on August twelfth, twenty thirteen, Cindy called nine 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:45.400 one one to report Devon swinging a hammer outside her house. 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.160 By the time police arrived, he was nowhere to be found. 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.960 The responding police officer wrote in his report that quote, 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.400 Dispatch advised that IPD had responded to the address five 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:03.079 times in August twenty thirty for disturbances and building checks, 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:08.400 all pertaining to Devin. Each time IPD has responded, Elizabeth 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:13.120 has been very uncooperative end quote. This was the moment 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:17.240 IPD decided to cite Cindy and Libby for maintaining a 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.320 nuisance property, and it would have ripple effects for months 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.720 and years to come. I showed the reports to Sondra 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:26.920 Park to get her expert interpretation. 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.880 It struck me that there was no discussion of referrals 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.960 for services. That they seemed focused on the fact that 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:41.600 the alleged victim was very uncooperative, rather than you know, 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:44.560 thinking about how they could better work with her, better 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.920 talk with her, and you know that that is the 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.800 kind of language we see where police are turning towards 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:55.320 blaming the victim rather than thinking about ways of supporting 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.520 the victim. This is a very stark situation of that, 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:03.679 because when the officer notes her as being uncooperative, that's 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.560 the very same instance where they then turn around and 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:11.000 serve her parents with maintaining any nuisance residence. So it's 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:16.360 very clear that they believe that this family is causing 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:20.560 a nuisance rather than being deserving of support. Law enforcement 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:24.080 is clearly aware that it's a domestic situation. You know, 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.520 they're labeling some of these calls domestic disturbance, and that 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.199 is often the way police departments code these types of calls, 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.360 which I think raises another question, you know, whether the 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:40.200 disturbance language frames these situations more in a nuisance type 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.560 situation right, versus calling it like I don't know, some 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.280 other terminology where we would recognize the dynamics and domestic 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:48.680 violence or abuse happening. 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.000 So we've gone from the summer to the next January. 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:56.760 She calls the police again, and just just the language 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:02.520 here of the police. Both Caswell women that police were 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.280 not going to make continual calls to the residents and 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.280 it would be treated at a disorderly house and parties 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:13.840 could be arrested on future calls. After a stern warning 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:20.000 and conversation, I elected not to arrest Livy Casa. I thought, like, wow, 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.160 she was actually being threatened with arrest in that case. 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.679 Yeah, I mean that really was horrifying to see. I 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.560 think the timeline you're thinking through is very similar to 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:35.560 what I've seen in other situations, where once the family 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:41.280 understands that future calls will lead to enforcement, they stop calling. Typically, 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:45.000 they may make calls again in the future only when 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.480 they feel they really have no other choice, or when 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:52.040 the violence has escalated to a point that they don't 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.240 see any other way of addressing it. So it's not 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.040 surprising to me that there might have been a gap. 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.440 I think the law is set up to punish families 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.720 in this situation, and then we see in stark terms 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.960 that the police are enforcing or understanding the law to 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:14.280 do that by stating that continual calls could lead to 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.720 the arrest of the people who are making the calls, 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.840 even though they themselves are not alleged to have committed 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.200 any criminal activity. For me, I mean, this issue has 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.800 always been so disturbing because I really think it's writing 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:34.079 into law blaming the victim, because the victim can then 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:38.520 be arrested for having made these requests for police protection. 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:43.959 So, in your work specifically with domestic violence and these laws, 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.560 can you talk a little bit about how these nuisance 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:51.000 laws affect victims of domestic violence and the different ways 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:57.000 that it affects them in terms of housing, financially, safety. 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:01.440 I know that they probably have a cascading amount of effects, 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.599 but I'd love to hear it just what you've seen firsthand. 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:08.000 I've worked with many survivors who have been targeted under 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.960 these laws over the years. I think one thing to 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:15.040 note is for many survivors, the decision to call the 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:18.400 police is a very heavy one, and they often will 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:22.440 have experienced violence for some period of time, often lengthy 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.160 periods of time, before they make that first nine to 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.679 one one call. I'm thinking of one survivor I worked 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.840 with who experienced domestic abuse for seven years before she 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.080 made her first nine to one one call. And when 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.560 she made that call, it was in a city where 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:43.559 there was a nuisance ordinance. That first call triggered enforcement 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.800 against her home. First, she learns that actually calling nine 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.000 one one, and seeking protection will mean that she loses 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.959 a home for her and her kids. Second, she learns 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:59.640 that law enforcement, which is often understood by most of 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:04.120 society as where survivors are supposed to go to seek protection, 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:09.480 that instead of providing safety, they will threaten your housing 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.880 and possibly impose other types of financial and criminal consequences 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:17.520 because your call for help is considered a nuisance under 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:21.960 the local law. I think what's most difficult for survivors 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.960 in the situation is that as a society, we generally 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:30.680 have sent the message that people who are experiencing domestic 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:37.239 violence should call the police and should seek protection, and survivors, 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:41.360 when they then do that, to learn that they are 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.200 going to be punished in this way really undoes any 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.440 sense of there being a foundation of security or safety 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:53.680 that they could turn to. And I think they really 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.960 then learn that they are very much on their own, 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.480 which they might have thought even before this. And so 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.360 if you imagine a person in that situation who suffered 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.760 for many years, the message that sends is devastating. 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.440 Can you talk a little bit about the legal concerns 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.160 with these laws and how you might have challenged them 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:14.720 in the past. 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.600 Sure, so, I've worked on several lawsuits challenging these laws 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.240 around the country because these laws, the way they operate 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.160 is to punish people once they make the call to 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:29.920 the police. We think that's a very clear violation of 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.440 people's First Amendment rights, which includes the right to contact 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:38.040 law enforcement and to request assistance. And we now have 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:44.040 decisions from various courts recognizing that when these laws operate 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.680 to punish people for their nine to one one calls, 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:51.280 that is considered a violation of their First Amendment rights. 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.080 We've also challenged these laws on due process grounds because 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.720 usually there really is no process for someone to contest 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:04.160 whether they should be punished under these laws. There's no hearing, 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.560 there's no opportunity for the family to talk about why 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.800 they shouldn't be punished. It's just an automatic assumption that 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:15.400 if you violate the law, you will get whatever the 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:19.720 penalty is. And then we've also challenged these laws on 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:24.400 the grounds that they discriminate against women. We know that 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:28.360 in many communities, domestic violence is the biggest category of 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:32.880 police calls. So once you start enforcing based on calls 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.040 to police, you are harming domestic violence survivors, the majority 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.040 of whom are women. What we've seen is as a 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.800 result of our cases, the cities have appealed the laws 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:46.800 and pay damages to our clients. We've also used the 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:52.120 lawsuits to spur on state legislation as well as we 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:54.960 now have a new federal production and the Violence Against 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:55.480 Women Act. 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:58.600 So it sounds like the lawsuits that you have worked on, 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.440 when they've been successful, have resulted in these ordinances being repealed. 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.520 Are we seeing like a move towards getting rid of 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:07.880 these ordinances? Are really only the ones that you've brought 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.640 a hammer down on have actually made any change. 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.199 It's varied. A lot of times, our lawsuits have helped 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:21.000 support state legislation which prohibits local laws that punish residents 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:26.320 for seeking emergency assistance. It's an ongoing project because you know, 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:30.399 we're talking locality by locality, and so that's why we've 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.480 taken these approaches of trying to focus on state and 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:38.920 federal level protections. We have seen cities repealing or amending 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:43.200 their ordinances, but you know, it's a continuing conversation about 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:47.320 educating folks that these ordinances exist. At the federal level, 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:52.320 the latest Violence Against Women Act includes a protection that 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:58.480 applies to cities that receive federal funding through the Community 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:02.040 Development Block Grant program, which is a pretty widespread program, 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:07.600 and basically it creates protection from being penalized under ordinances 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:12.360 for seeking emergency assistance or for criminal activity of which 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.600 you were not at fault. It might not address every situation, 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.720 but the way penalty is described is that you should 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:22.880 not be penalized by being evicted, by not having your 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.119 lease renewed, or by other types of fines and fees 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:27.679 or criminal consequences. 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.440 I know we've discussed this, but just sort of just 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:35.959 big picture, what kind of message it sends to victims 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:41.879 to be treated as a nuisance, even this language of nuisance. 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:43.280 I mean, I think about kind of the. 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.840 Shame that Cindy has a little bit around the fact 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:47.160 that she. 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.359 Was fined, had to go to court. 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:51.760 You know, this is not a wealthy family, and had 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:56.479 to pay money for really seeking help that was you know, 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.240 and it was unsuccessful. You know, this did not stop 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.399 the harassment that the family was getting. 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.280 Yeah, I mean, in talking to survivors, I've heard over 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:11.400 and over again the hurt and the sense of abandonment 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.320 that they feel once they learn that the city where 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:19.240 they live is labeling the violence and abuse they're experiencing 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.840 as a nuisance, and even beyond that that they are 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:27.440 labeling the survivor as a nuisance. It's a very personal insult, 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:32.199 But beyond that, it's really a sense of complete abandonment 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:37.120 as well as understanding that your city is further victimizing you, 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.679 because it's not just that the police are failing to 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:45.240 provide you with emergency protection. It goes way beyond that 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:50.200 that they are actually threatening you with punishment that will 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.240 only make you further vulnerable to the violence you're experiencing 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.240 in the first place. And so I think for many 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:01.840 survivors it's a realization that are not only alone in 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:06.560 dealing with the violence, but that they also have to 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.040 keep that violence secret from the police. 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.600 In March twenty twenty one, after learning that a nuisance 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.760 ordinance had been used against Cindy's family, Casey Gwynn, an 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.639 Alliance for Hope International sent a letter to Eileen Weir, 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:28.120 then Mayor of Independence, asking her to revoke the statute. 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:32.919 She never responded. In late twenty twenty three, Alliance for 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:36.520 Hope sent another request to the new Mayor of Independence, 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:46.000 Rory Rowland. They're still waiting to hear back. What Happened 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.439 To Libby Caswell is written, reported, and hosted by me 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:53.560 Melissa Jelson. This episode was written by Marisa Brown and 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:57.560 edited and mixed by Jeremy Thal. Our executive producer is 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:02.639 Ryan Murdoch. For iHeart Podcast, executive producers are Jason English 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:07.680 and Katrina Norvel, with our supervising producer Carl catl. Our 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:11.000 theme song is written by Aaron Kaufman and performed by 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:15.640 Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Wolfe. Original music by Aaron Kaufman 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:20.440 with additional music by Jeremy Thal. To find out more 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:24.040 about my investigation or to send a tip, please email 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:27.960 me at what Happened to libbyat gmail dot com. Thanks 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:29.080 so much for listening.