1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Hi listeners. In this bonus episode of What Happened to 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: Libby Caswell, I want to spend some time talking about 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: nuisance laws, what they are, how they're used, and what's 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: being done about them. The nuisance law in Independence, Missouri 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: played a pivotal role in Libby's story. You may remember 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: from episode three that Cindy's house was labeled a nuisance 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: after she repeatedly called nine one one to report Devon's 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: ongoing harassment. 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 2: I always thought nuisance was the person that didn't clean 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 2: up the trash, or mowed or grass, or had loud 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 2: late night parties. I didn't think it pertained to hey, 12 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: help us here, help us, this kid is egging our house. 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 2: These you know, threatening us. 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: The logic of this that they were being punished for 15 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: Devon's threatening behavior confused and angered at Cindy. 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: Yes, it was a nuisance. It was a very big nuisance. 17 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 2: It was to us too, you know, we were struggling 18 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 2: to keep our daughters safe and our other two kids 19 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: and trying to hold down jobs, you know, at the 20 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 2: same time. 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: I first heard about nuisance laws in twenty seventeen, when 22 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: I was a reporter for the Huffington Post. I covered 23 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: a story where a woman was evicted from her home 24 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: and ultimately exiled from her hometown of Maplewood, Missouri, for 25 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: calling to report domestic violence on multiple occasions. At the time, 26 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: I interviewed Saundra Park, who was then a lawyer with 27 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: the ACLU. They brought a lawsuit against Maplewood, arguing that 28 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: their nuisance law was unconstitutional. As a result, the town 29 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: was forced to amend its nuisance ordinance so that domestic 30 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: violence victims could no longer be penalized for calling the police. 31 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: Sondra Park is now the head of the Civil Rights 32 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: Bureau of the New York State Attorney General's Office. Read 33 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: out to her recently to talk about the nuisance ordinance 34 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: in Independence and its effect on Libby's tragic story. Here's 35 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: our conversation, which has been edited for length and clarity. 36 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: I think most people don't even know about nuisance laws 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: or nuisance ordinances, so it would be great just to 38 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: hear from you a little bit of a backstory of 39 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: when and where they originated and for what purpose. 40 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 3: So nuisance laws exist around the country. There have been 41 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 3: different types of laws like this on the books for decades. 42 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 3: They became much more popular in the nineties as a 43 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 3: result of tough on crime type attitudes, where people started 44 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 3: penalizing minor offenses as a way of possibly getting at 45 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 3: bigger offenses, so almost like a broken windows theory. Typically, 46 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 3: when you see justifications of these laws, there's a simplistic 47 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 3: idea that somehow, once you start penalized owners for police 48 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 3: calls or for possible criminal activity occurring at the home, 49 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 3: that somehow the landlord or the owner can stop that 50 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 3: from occurring. And I think that's just a completely misplaced 51 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 3: idea about what the relationship between crime and the home is, 52 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: particularly if you think about the domestic violence context. Domestic violence, 53 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 3: by its nature is usually committed at the home, and 54 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 3: so once you have a law that is targeting the 55 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 3: fact that there's a nine to one one call or 56 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 3: that there's a crime occurring at the home, you are 57 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 3: going to punish the victim of the domestic violence. I 58 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 3: think survivors in that situation quickly learn that reaching out 59 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 3: for police assistance will not provide any sort of safety 60 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 3: or security to them. 61 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: What are the justifications for these types of policies and 62 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: what specific offenses are they looking to crack down on. 63 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: It seems like sometimes it's about noise or like track 64 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: or other stuff like that. But what typically when policymakers 65 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: have pushed these policies, like, what are they saying to 66 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: justify why they might be helpful. 67 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: So early on, there were a lot of ordnances that 68 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: were more general to physical conditions at the home, like 69 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 3: things like trash or dead trees. Those are not the 70 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 3: types of ornances that I've been concerned about or you know, 71 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 3: had been advocating against. What we saw was a broadening 72 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 3: of the scope of these ordnances over time, particularly in 73 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 3: this nineties period that I mentioned earlier, where you saw 74 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 3: things like drug offenses potentially being targeted. You saw violence 75 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 3: being targeted without any consideration of who was committing the violence, 76 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 3: whether the person was actually the victim of the violence. 77 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 3: Just the fact that violence had occurred at the home 78 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 3: was going to make that property a target for nuisance enforcement. 79 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 3: And then we also saw that rather than specifying offenses, 80 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 3: a lot of cities took a very broad approach to 81 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 3: these ordinances where they would say, any violation of federal 82 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 3: state city law can trigger this nuisance ordinance, and it 83 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 3: could be as minor as a violation, so something very 84 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 3: low level as an offense, and that is actually, I 85 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 3: think very typical of the way these laws operate. Now, 86 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 3: the other types of justifications in the domestic violence context 87 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 3: in particular, is we've seen victim blaming explicitly in some 88 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 3: of the consideration of these types of laws. So you'll 89 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 3: see discussion of the fact that there are repeated domestic 90 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 3: violence calls, that that's a problem for the city and 91 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: they want that to stop, and rather than actually trying 92 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,559 Speaker 3: to address the underlying issues of domestic violence in the home, 93 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: they want to crack down on the fact that there 94 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 3: are repeated calls, and so they are taking an extremely 95 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 3: punitive approach by punishing the folks who are generating those calls. 96 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 3: I think that the other really flaws philosophy behind this 97 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 3: type of ordinance is that somehow, if you reduce the 98 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 3: number of police calls, that equates to reducing crime, and 99 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 3: we know that's just completely a huge mistake. If anything, 100 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 3: you are allowing crime to continue to occur and violence 101 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 3: to escalate because people no longer feel that they can 102 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 3: reach out for emergency assistance. 103 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: Do we have any research or understanding about how these 104 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: might be unequally enforced. 105 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, we've done that analysis and specific communities in different ways, 106 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 3: and we've seen that they disproportionately get enforced when the 107 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 3: calls are about domestic violence. We definitely have seen in 108 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 3: the nuisance ordinance context where they seem to be disproportionately 109 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 3: targeting people of color, people with disabilities, as well as 110 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 3: households dealing with domestic violence. 111 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: So do you think it was intentional for domestic violence 112 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: to be considered a type of nuisance or was this 113 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: just a byproduct of the laws. 114 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 3: When I first started working on this issue, I maybe 115 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 3: naively thought it was more of a byproduct situation, And 116 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 3: you know, the evidence really shows that it is very 117 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 3: explicit victim blaming in a lot of communities. I'm not 118 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 3: going to say every community, but we have seen in 119 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: some communities they specifically target domestic violence as a nuisance offense, 120 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 3: or they specifically talk about domestic violence as a type 121 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,559 Speaker 3: of offense they want to target in adopting this type 122 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 3: of ordinance. 123 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: If you've listened to the entire podcast, and I recommend 124 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: you do before going any further, you know that the 125 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: Independence Police Department used a local nuisance ordinance to pressure 126 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: Cindy to stop calling them despite Devon's ongoing harassment. When 127 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: I first read how the police described their interactions with 128 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: Libby and their reports, I was horrified. For example, here's 129 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: one incident on August twelfth, twenty thirteen, Cindy called nine 130 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: one one to report Devon swinging a hammer outside her house. 131 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: By the time police arrived, he was nowhere to be found. 132 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: The responding police officer wrote in his report that quote, 133 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: Dispatch advised that IPD had responded to the address five 134 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 1: times in August twenty thirty for disturbances and building checks, 135 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: all pertaining to Devin. Each time IPD has responded, Elizabeth 136 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: has been very uncooperative end quote. This was the moment 137 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: IPD decided to cite Cindy and Libby for maintaining a 138 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: nuisance property, and it would have ripple effects for months 139 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: and years to come. I showed the reports to Sondra 140 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: Park to get her expert interpretation. 141 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: It struck me that there was no discussion of referrals 142 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 3: for services. That they seemed focused on the fact that 143 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: the alleged victim was very uncooperative, rather than you know, 144 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 3: thinking about how they could better work with her, better 145 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 3: talk with her, and you know that that is the 146 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 3: kind of language we see where police are turning towards 147 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 3: blaming the victim rather than thinking about ways of supporting 148 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 3: the victim. This is a very stark situation of that, 149 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 3: because when the officer notes her as being uncooperative, that's 150 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 3: the very same instance where they then turn around and 151 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 3: serve her parents with maintaining any nuisance residence. So it's 152 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 3: very clear that they believe that this family is causing 153 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: a nuisance rather than being deserving of support. Law enforcement 154 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 3: is clearly aware that it's a domestic situation. You know, 155 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 3: they're labeling some of these calls domestic disturbance, and that 156 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 3: is often the way police departments code these types of calls, 157 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 3: which I think raises another question, you know, whether the 158 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 3: disturbance language frames these situations more in a nuisance type 159 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 3: situation right, versus calling it like I don't know, some 160 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 3: other terminology where we would recognize the dynamics and domestic 161 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 3: violence or abuse happening. 162 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: So we've gone from the summer to the next January. 163 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: She calls the police again, and just just the language 164 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: here of the police. Both Caswell women that police were 165 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: not going to make continual calls to the residents and 166 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: it would be treated at a disorderly house and parties 167 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: could be arrested on future calls. After a stern warning 168 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: and conversation, I elected not to arrest Livy Casa. I thought, like, wow, 169 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: she was actually being threatened with arrest in that case. 170 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that really was horrifying to see. I 171 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 3: think the timeline you're thinking through is very similar to 172 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 3: what I've seen in other situations, where once the family 173 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 3: understands that future calls will lead to enforcement, they stop calling. Typically, 174 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 3: they may make calls again in the future only when 175 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 3: they feel they really have no other choice, or when 176 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 3: the violence has escalated to a point that they don't 177 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 3: see any other way of addressing it. So it's not 178 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 3: surprising to me that there might have been a gap. 179 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 3: I think the law is set up to punish families 180 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 3: in this situation, and then we see in stark terms 181 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: that the police are enforcing or understanding the law to 182 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 3: do that by stating that continual calls could lead to 183 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 3: the arrest of the people who are making the calls, 184 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 3: even though they themselves are not alleged to have committed 185 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 3: any criminal activity. For me, I mean, this issue has 186 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 3: always been so disturbing because I really think it's writing 187 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 3: into law blaming the victim, because the victim can then 188 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 3: be arrested for having made these requests for police protection. 189 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 1: So, in your work specifically with domestic violence and these laws, 190 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about how these nuisance 191 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: laws affect victims of domestic violence and the different ways 192 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: that it affects them in terms of housing, financially, safety. 193 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: I know that they probably have a cascading amount of effects, 194 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,599 Speaker 1: but I'd love to hear it just what you've seen firsthand. 195 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 3: I've worked with many survivors who have been targeted under 196 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 3: these laws over the years. I think one thing to 197 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 3: note is for many survivors, the decision to call the 198 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 3: police is a very heavy one, and they often will 199 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 3: have experienced violence for some period of time, often lengthy 200 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 3: periods of time, before they make that first nine to 201 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 3: one one call. I'm thinking of one survivor I worked 202 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 3: with who experienced domestic abuse for seven years before she 203 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 3: made her first nine to one one call. And when 204 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 3: she made that call, it was in a city where 205 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 3: there was a nuisance ordinance. That first call triggered enforcement 206 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 3: against her home. First, she learns that actually calling nine 207 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: one one, and seeking protection will mean that she loses 208 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,959 Speaker 3: a home for her and her kids. Second, she learns 209 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: that law enforcement, which is often understood by most of 210 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 3: society as where survivors are supposed to go to seek protection, 211 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 3: that instead of providing safety, they will threaten your housing 212 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: and possibly impose other types of financial and criminal consequences 213 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 3: because your call for help is considered a nuisance under 214 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 3: the local law. I think what's most difficult for survivors 215 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 3: in the situation is that as a society, we generally 216 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 3: have sent the message that people who are experiencing domestic 217 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:37,239 Speaker 3: violence should call the police and should seek protection, and survivors, 218 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 3: when they then do that, to learn that they are 219 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 3: going to be punished in this way really undoes any 220 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 3: sense of there being a foundation of security or safety 221 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: that they could turn to. And I think they really 222 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 3: then learn that they are very much on their own, 223 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 3: which they might have thought even before this. And so 224 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 3: if you imagine a person in that situation who suffered 225 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 3: for many years, the message that sends is devastating. 226 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about the legal concerns 227 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: with these laws and how you might have challenged them 228 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: in the past. 229 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 3: Sure, so, I've worked on several lawsuits challenging these laws 230 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 3: around the country because these laws, the way they operate 231 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 3: is to punish people once they make the call to 232 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 3: the police. We think that's a very clear violation of 233 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 3: people's First Amendment rights, which includes the right to contact 234 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 3: law enforcement and to request assistance. And we now have 235 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 3: decisions from various courts recognizing that when these laws operate 236 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 3: to punish people for their nine to one one calls, 237 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 3: that is considered a violation of their First Amendment rights. 238 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: We've also challenged these laws on due process grounds because 239 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 3: usually there really is no process for someone to contest 240 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 3: whether they should be punished under these laws. There's no hearing, 241 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 3: there's no opportunity for the family to talk about why 242 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 3: they shouldn't be punished. It's just an automatic assumption that 243 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 3: if you violate the law, you will get whatever the 244 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 3: penalty is. And then we've also challenged these laws on 245 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 3: the grounds that they discriminate against women. We know that 246 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 3: in many communities, domestic violence is the biggest category of 247 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 3: police calls. So once you start enforcing based on calls 248 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 3: to police, you are harming domestic violence survivors, the majority 249 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 3: of whom are women. What we've seen is as a 250 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 3: result of our cases, the cities have appealed the laws 251 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 3: and pay damages to our clients. We've also used the 252 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 3: lawsuits to spur on state legislation as well as we 253 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 3: now have a new federal production and the Violence Against 254 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 3: Women Act. 255 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: So it sounds like the lawsuits that you have worked on, 256 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: when they've been successful, have resulted in these ordinances being repealed. 257 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: Are we seeing like a move towards getting rid of 258 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: these ordinances? Are really only the ones that you've brought 259 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: a hammer down on have actually made any change. 260 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 3: It's varied. A lot of times, our lawsuits have helped 261 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 3: support state legislation which prohibits local laws that punish residents 262 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 3: for seeking emergency assistance. It's an ongoing project because you know, 263 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 3: we're talking locality by locality, and so that's why we've 264 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 3: taken these approaches of trying to focus on state and 265 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 3: federal level protections. We have seen cities repealing or amending 266 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 3: their ordinances, but you know, it's a continuing conversation about 267 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 3: educating folks that these ordinances exist. At the federal level, 268 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 3: the latest Violence Against Women Act includes a protection that 269 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 3: applies to cities that receive federal funding through the Community 270 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 3: Development Block Grant program, which is a pretty widespread program, 271 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 3: and basically it creates protection from being penalized under ordinances 272 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 3: for seeking emergency assistance or for criminal activity of which 273 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 3: you were not at fault. It might not address every situation, 274 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 3: but the way penalty is described is that you should 275 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 3: not be penalized by being evicted, by not having your 276 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 3: lease renewed, or by other types of fines and fees 277 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 3: or criminal consequences. 278 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: I know we've discussed this, but just sort of just 279 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:35,959 Speaker 1: big picture, what kind of message it sends to victims 280 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: to be treated as a nuisance, even this language of nuisance. 281 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 3: I mean, I think about kind of the. 282 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: Shame that Cindy has a little bit around the fact 283 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: that she. 284 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 3: Was fined, had to go to court. 285 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: You know, this is not a wealthy family, and had 286 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,479 Speaker 1: to pay money for really seeking help that was you know, 287 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: and it was unsuccessful. You know, this did not stop 288 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: the harassment that the family was getting. 289 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, in talking to survivors, I've heard over 290 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 3: and over again the hurt and the sense of abandonment 291 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 3: that they feel once they learn that the city where 292 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 3: they live is labeling the violence and abuse they're experiencing 293 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 3: as a nuisance, and even beyond that that they are 294 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 3: labeling the survivor as a nuisance. It's a very personal insult, 295 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 3: But beyond that, it's really a sense of complete abandonment 296 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 3: as well as understanding that your city is further victimizing you, 297 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 3: because it's not just that the police are failing to 298 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 3: provide you with emergency protection. It goes way beyond that 299 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 3: that they are actually threatening you with punishment that will 300 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 3: only make you further vulnerable to the violence you're experiencing 301 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 3: in the first place. And so I think for many 302 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 3: survivors it's a realization that are not only alone in 303 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 3: dealing with the violence, but that they also have to 304 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 3: keep that violence secret from the police. 305 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: In March twenty twenty one, after learning that a nuisance 306 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: ordinance had been used against Cindy's family, Casey Gwynn, an 307 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: Alliance for Hope International sent a letter to Eileen Weir, 308 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: then Mayor of Independence, asking her to revoke the statute. 309 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: She never responded. In late twenty twenty three, Alliance for 310 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: Hope sent another request to the new Mayor of Independence, 311 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: Rory Rowland. They're still waiting to hear back. What Happened 312 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: To Libby Caswell is written, reported, and hosted by me 313 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: Melissa Jelson. This episode was written by Marisa Brown and 314 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: edited and mixed by Jeremy Thal. Our executive producer is 315 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: Ryan Murdoch. For iHeart Podcast, executive producers are Jason English 316 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: and Katrina Norvel, with our supervising producer Carl catl. Our 317 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: theme song is written by Aaron Kaufman and performed by 318 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Wolfe. Original music by Aaron Kaufman 319 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: with additional music by Jeremy Thal. To find out more 320 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: about my investigation or to send a tip, please email 321 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: me at what Happened to libbyat gmail dot com. Thanks 322 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: so much for listening.