Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I in Matt.
Speaker 1: Today we are asking the question is capitalism a force
Speaker 1: for good? That's right, and this was intended to be
Speaker 1: a provocative title for this episode. Is capitalism a force
Speaker 1: for good? Didn't we didn't? We recently have a beer
Speaker 1: called a force for good? Yes, we completely missed an
Speaker 1: opportunity and had a good parent here. Um. However, this
Speaker 1: is a topic that we feel is important. We want
Speaker 1: to talk about capitalism in a way that we feel
Speaker 1: like it's fair, while at the same time, we're you know,
Speaker 1: we're addressing the fact. We know that this isn't gonna
Speaker 1: be one of those episodes where at the very end
Speaker 1: you're going to have like your three things to do.
Speaker 1: We're hoping that this is going to be an episode
Speaker 1: that causes you to think, because ultimately, we believe that
Speaker 1: the attitudes that you have about something as fundamental as
Speaker 1: capitalism will impact how it is that you interact with
Speaker 1: different businesses and with the world around us as well,
Speaker 1: and maybe even that desire or not to start your
Speaker 1: own business someday kind of how you view the system
Speaker 1: that we all kind of live in. To a certain extent,
Speaker 1: matters in in your actions. Actually, it is going to
Speaker 1: be somewhat deterministic in how you move about in the world.
Speaker 1: But Matt, before before we get to that, let's I
Speaker 1: just saw this great article from our friend jd Roth
Speaker 1: who writes it Get Rich Slowly, and it was all
Speaker 1: about speaking up for yourself. And I think this is
Speaker 1: like one of those things that maybe we don't do
Speaker 1: enough as consumers. Basically, he had someone come out to
Speaker 1: his house to repair a leak in the roof, and
Speaker 1: he they had told him, Hey, it's gonna cost us
Speaker 1: this much to come out, and then this is our
Speaker 1: hourly rates. They were out there for at most I
Speaker 1: think you said, two hours, and then the bill he
Speaker 1: got along at all. He was shocked. It was like
Speaker 1: and so um. He at first was just kind of upset.
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure what to do about it, but he decided,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm gonna speak up for myself and
Speaker 1: he ended up calling the company and the bill was
Speaker 1: without you know, him having to really even harangue anyone,
Speaker 1: cut in half essentially and to to something that made
Speaker 1: made more sense commensurate with the labor that actually was
Speaker 1: involved in fixing his roof. And it just made me think, like,
Speaker 1: there are so many times that that happens, and maybe
Speaker 1: we bemoan it quietly or we're upset about it, we're
Speaker 1: frustrated on the inside. But so much of the time,
Speaker 1: the way to go about getting something fixed, uh, when
Speaker 1: when something is wrong, when we have been overcharged or underserved,
Speaker 1: is to reach out to that business and to tell
Speaker 1: them and ask for them to fix it on our behalf.
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, we need to advocate for ourselves. And
Speaker 1: like you said, he didn't have to like go, you know,
Speaker 1: stay in front of an appeals court or something like that.
Speaker 1: It was literally a phone call. But I think that's
Speaker 1: honestly the biggest uh disconnect or not disconnect, but that's
Speaker 1: the hurdle that keeps us from moving forward and doing
Speaker 1: something uh that would allow us to cosse some of
Speaker 1: our money back. Is that if there isn't like a
Speaker 1: button to click or an app where you submit a
Speaker 1: complaint or something like that. If those things don't exist,
Speaker 1: it's almost as if there's no path forward. It's like,
Speaker 1: what do I do? It'm I supposed to actually pick
Speaker 1: up the phone and call this company. And a lot
Speaker 1: of times, yes, that's exactly what we need to do.
Speaker 1: And I loved he He actually started that post talking
Speaker 1: about the fact that he hates confrontation. He does not
Speaker 1: like to confront people to ask questions that we don't
Speaker 1: necessarily need to be asked. But in this case, his
Speaker 1: money was on the line, and I was glad to
Speaker 1: see him, Yeah, advocate for himself, and that is something
Speaker 1: that we need to do more of ourselves as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's it's certainly uncomfortable at times, but when our
Speaker 1: money is on the line, we we have to we
Speaker 1: have to be willing to speak up, to push back,
Speaker 1: to ask the question at least, can you explain this
Speaker 1: bill to me a little bit further? You don't even
Speaker 1: have to get hyper confrontatefrontational, you know, I don't think
Speaker 1: j D j D did. I think he questioned where
Speaker 1: why the bill was as much as it was, and like, well,
Speaker 1: what was the actual work done? Because they were just
Speaker 1: here for a couple of hours, And so asking those
Speaker 1: gentle questions, even as you're starting to prod in the beginning,
Speaker 1: can help the company realized, wait, we screwed up, we
Speaker 1: build you the wrong amount, and we will fix it
Speaker 1: without you even having to make a fuss, and so
Speaker 1: sometimes you do have to take it to the level
Speaker 1: of confrontational. You do have to maybe make a post
Speaker 1: on Twitter or or you do even in extreme circumstances,
Speaker 1: have to like pick it out in front of a
Speaker 1: company in order to get a problem resolved. But most
Speaker 1: of the time a simple phone call will clear things
Speaker 1: up pretty easily. That's right, man. Let's go ahead and
Speaker 1: introduce the beer that we're going to share during this episode. Uh,
Speaker 1: it is a bourbon barrel brick kiln. This is a
Speaker 1: beer by Jackie Os. Looking forward to drinking this one
Speaker 1: and sharing our thoughts on this one at the end
Speaker 1: of the episode. Yeah, especially this one. Jackieo's is one
Speaker 1: of my all time paper brewis at this point, and
Speaker 1: so they are. Yeah, they're awesome. Should be a good one.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's let's get onto the provocative question
Speaker 1: that they do. It is capitalism a force for good?
Speaker 1: And this question made me think for some reason about
Speaker 1: the movie and the book Moneyball, And um, yeah, if
Speaker 1: you've read that book, if you watch the movie, Brad
Speaker 1: Pitt Brad Pit was in it. Yes, that's right, Jonah Hill,
Speaker 1: I think and I read the actual book because I'm
Speaker 1: kind of a baseball nerd, and I found it fascinating
Speaker 1: and and Michael Lewis is just such a great writer.
Speaker 1: But if you've read the book or watch the movie,
Speaker 1: you have probably acquired maybe a new understanding of the
Speaker 1: word underrated, because that book basically details the true story
Speaker 1: of baseball general manager Billy Bean how how he changed
Speaker 1: the face of the game of baseball by starting to
Speaker 1: amass players who had certain characteristics that were kind of
Speaker 1: boring but ultimately led to more team victories. That's right. Basically,
Speaker 1: he was drafting and training for players who took a
Speaker 1: lot of walks, like that's one way of saying, instead
Speaker 1: of the the sexy or features of baseball like home
Speaker 1: runs and stolen basis, he realized that those don't actually
Speaker 1: pay off when it comes to victories as much as
Speaker 1: guys who can take walks. And so he got these
Speaker 1: really undervalued players who had actually add a lot of
Speaker 1: value to the team, even though most of baseball said, yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll basically give these players to you because they don't
Speaker 1: fit the mold of a traditional baseball player that were
Speaker 1: used to see. And so that that group of underrated
Speaker 1: players actually ended up taking the Oakland. A's basically from
Speaker 1: from worst to first. And Matt, I think similarly, capitalism
Speaker 1: is it's it's kind of like the baseball players that
Speaker 1: Billy Bean was finding. It's this system that has at
Speaker 1: least in recent year, has been a little more denigrated.
Speaker 1: It's been undervalue maybe, And so yeah, you and I
Speaker 1: we think that it is a force for good and
Speaker 1: we're going to kind of make the case for that
Speaker 1: in today's episode. Yeah, quite another quick example that I
Speaker 1: can think of that's not sports related. It's basically like
Speaker 1: taking care of your teeth, right, Like you can get
Speaker 1: the fancy toothpaste, you can even get a nicer toothbrush,
Speaker 1: like one of those fancy ultra sonic toothbrushes. You can
Speaker 1: even get like some of those super fancy water jets.
Speaker 1: I don't even know how much those things cost, but
Speaker 1: all that being said, you can do all of those things,
Speaker 1: or you can get somedental floss, which is like the
Speaker 1: most basic thing, and flash your stupid teeth. It's gonna
Speaker 1: win every single time. It is not pretty, but it
Speaker 1: gets the job done. I feel that way again similarly
Speaker 1: as the you know, Billy Bean, floss is just this
Speaker 1: underrated thing. But it does get the job done every
Speaker 1: single and it makes a big impact. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: that's this is a big reason why we're talking about
Speaker 1: capitalism during this episode, because I mean one of the
Speaker 1: other things too, is we feel that it's become in
Speaker 1: vogue recently to hate on capitalism. We're seeing socialist tendencies
Speaker 1: actually growing in our society. Uh. And you know, we're
Speaker 1: gonna do our best here to present a nuanced take here,
Speaker 1: because it's not like we're saying that unfettered capitalism is
Speaker 1: going to be like this glorious pinnacle of humanity or
Speaker 1: anything like that. But the stats show that only half
Speaker 1: of younger Americans actually view capitalism fondly. However, as recently
Speaker 1: as two thirds of people felt that way. Uh. And
Speaker 1: some of that pivot is understandable. It seems that young adults,
Speaker 1: they might be tending towards the socialist viewpoint for reasons
Speaker 1: of security. You know that that might make sense. The
Speaker 1: job market has evolved quickly. We'll all likely work a
Speaker 1: bunch of different jobs in a variety of different sectors
Speaker 1: over our working lifetimes. Uh. And that might be anxiety
Speaker 1: inducing our parents, their parents, our grandparents, you know, they
Speaker 1: didn't have that same experience. But just because that reaction
Speaker 1: might be a understandable it doesn't mean that we think
Speaker 1: gravitating away from capitalism is best. Okay, So I think
Speaker 1: we should define our terms then, Matt, while we're starting
Speaker 1: out here, we should maybe say what capitalism is and
Speaker 1: what matter. And capitalism was essentially founded by Scottish economist
Speaker 1: Adam Smith. He wrote the book The Wealth of Nations,
Speaker 1: which most of us learned about as we were studying
Speaker 1: history in school. And the literal definition of capitalism is,
Speaker 1: and I quote, an economic system in which private individuals
Speaker 1: or businesses own capital goods. It's the production of goods
Speaker 1: and services based on supply and demand in the general market.
Speaker 1: But there's also the reality that even before the terms
Speaker 1: free market and capitalism came into our vernacular, before we
Speaker 1: we knew what capitalism was, that free trade has been
Speaker 1: this basic human instincts, right even before physical currencies were created,
Speaker 1: before we can trade things back and forth with metal
Speaker 1: coins or you know, paper currency, right exactly like what
Speaker 1: we learned about when we talked with Jacob Goldstein, people
Speaker 1: were trading agricultural goods back and forth, like grain or cattle.
Speaker 1: And when it comes down to it, capitalism is kind
Speaker 1: of more like the lack of a system than a
Speaker 1: complex structured one, and so really it functions around individual
Speaker 1: needs and then the subsequent ingenuity that comes along attempting
Speaker 1: to meet those needs. That's right, And you know when
Speaker 1: you see ingenuity, Basically what you're talking about here is competition.
Speaker 1: And we feel that that is core to the capitalist system.
Speaker 1: Because here's the thing, like we're not saying that, like
Speaker 1: we're not we're not anarchists, right, we believe that there
Speaker 1: is a certain amounts of law, like the rule of
Speaker 1: law needs to exist in order for there to be
Speaker 1: healthy competition, and that actually helps foster robust capitalists. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: because if you don't have any laws, then competition just
Speaker 1: leads to death as people are literally clabboring each other
Speaker 1: for the scarce goods. And so I wanted to quickly
Speaker 1: provide a foil to capitalism. Let's mention the Scandinavian countries.
Speaker 1: Everybody likes talking about those, uh your motherland. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: feel like there's been a lot of discussion in recent
Speaker 1: years about Sweden, Denmark, about Norway, uh, the favorite of
Speaker 1: those your country, and how these like quote unquote socialist
Speaker 1: countries are basically like the gold standard. Many have said
Speaker 1: that the U S should actually aim to be more
Speaker 1: like these countries, and interestingly enough, we don't completely disagree here,
Speaker 1: and that's because these countries aren't actually all that socialist.
Speaker 1: Sure like, they definitely have higher tax rates, they've got
Speaker 1: a stronger social safety nets. But when we're talking about
Speaker 1: economic freedom, most of these countries have ranked higher than
Speaker 1: the U S in recent years. Here's the thing. The
Speaker 1: governments in these countries, they don't own the means of production,
Speaker 1: which is what socialism actually is. Uh. And so if
Speaker 1: you're looking for that type of economic system, you're gonna
Speaker 1: have to look back in history to the USSR, or
Speaker 1: more recently to Venezuela and Cuba. Those aren't countries where
Speaker 1: most of us want to live. Uh. But interestingly enough,
Speaker 1: these Scandinavian countries, they seem to prioritize free markets better
Speaker 1: than we do here in the US these days. But
Speaker 1: that's just an interesting note because it seems that these
Speaker 1: SCAN and Navy in countries have prioritized free markets recently
Speaker 1: better than the USS. Yeah. I think it's an important
Speaker 1: part of the conversation because those countries have admirable qualities,
Speaker 1: and there is a lot to admire about some of
Speaker 1: those Scandinadian countries, what they've been able to produce, and
Speaker 1: the happy people that they've been able to produce overall.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting to see that actually capitalism has been
Speaker 1: a robust part of that, and and more so lately
Speaker 1: over the past couple of decades actly, there have been
Speaker 1: a lot and we can link to an article too
Speaker 1: from recent magazine where John Stossel details how skinn how
Speaker 1: Sweden in particular, has changed over the years to looking
Speaker 1: more like the United States than the traditional Sweden of
Speaker 1: the six season seventies. And uh, yeah, this isn't to
Speaker 1: say that there's more overall economic freedom in Scandinavian countries
Speaker 1: than there is in the US. There are still lots
Speaker 1: of government run services, but they also have the taxes
Speaker 1: to fund them. And so while the US has a
Speaker 1: tax to GDP ratio of somewhere in the range of
Speaker 1: it's closer to forty five percent over in the Nordic countries.
Speaker 1: So more of your paycheck, a good bit more of
Speaker 1: your paycheck is going to fund those social services. And
Speaker 1: that's not to say that those countries are worse off.
Speaker 1: It's okay to have different countries doing different things. We
Speaker 1: think it provides a nice balance to the world. You know,
Speaker 1: folks who want to take it easier can move to Norway,
Speaker 1: although I think the immigration policies there are are pretty tight. Uh.
Speaker 1: And if you want to, I might be able to
Speaker 1: get in just because of my ancestry, but it's because
Speaker 1: of your name and if you want to duke it
Speaker 1: out then you know. That's what the US does really well.
Speaker 1: And companies like Apple, Google, forward Visor, and Delta, they
Speaker 1: have all flourished under the capitalist system. That these are
Speaker 1: all US companies that haven't only just made our lives better,
Speaker 1: but like I mean, they literally have made the entire
Speaker 1: world better exactly. Yeah, when you look at some of
Speaker 1: these companies, um, many of them make more money overall
Speaker 1: outside of the United States than they make inside of
Speaker 1: the US these days. And Matt, you and I were
Speaker 1: obviously not not all knowing beings, but I'm guessing that
Speaker 1: these companies might not even exist if it weren't for
Speaker 1: the capitalistic work that exists in the US that lead
Speaker 1: them to flourishing. We probably wouldn't have Netflix or eBay either. Yeah,
Speaker 1: these are companies again, like, can you think of one
Speaker 1: company from like a Scandinavian or Nordic country, Like you
Speaker 1: probably can't think like Nestley in Switzerland there maybe I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't even know, though it sounds kind of like
Speaker 1: an American company, like like Nordic track that doesn't count either,
Speaker 1: But it is interesting to see the privatization that has
Speaker 1: happened over time in some of these countries. Spotify, I believe,
Speaker 1: where of a British company or they maybe they might
Speaker 1: even be a Swedish company. Actually, yeah, yeah, And so again,
Speaker 1: why are we talking about this because we normally stick
Speaker 1: to personal finance and now we're gonna be getting more
Speaker 1: into the broader field of economics with this discussion. But
Speaker 1: because we live in a free market economy, we feel
Speaker 1: that it's important to know how it functions so that
Speaker 1: we can thrive inside of it. And maybe this episode
Speaker 1: will help you to understand just the societal waters that
Speaker 1: we are all swimming in. And another reason we feel
Speaker 1: compelled to talk about capitalism today is because of just
Speaker 1: the changing perceptions by many that free markets aren't actually good.
Speaker 1: We think that they are, uh, And so we're going
Speaker 1: to discuss that and more right after this break. All right,
Speaker 1: we're back, Matt. Let's keep annoying our listeners talking about
Speaker 1: capitalism here for a second, and kind of it's not annoying.
Speaker 1: This is this is an important converence. Yes, I agree,
Speaker 1: I think it is. And and you know you and
Speaker 1: I again, this is not necessarily the normal route we take,
Speaker 1: but we feel compelled to discuss this because when knowing
Speaker 1: the water that you're swimming in and knowing kind of
Speaker 1: how a capitalist system operates and what's good and what's
Speaker 1: bad about it, We're gonna cover both of the sides
Speaker 1: of the coin here on today's think about it and
Speaker 1: talk about it in a way that's just fair and
Speaker 1: well rounded. Yeah, because it's trying to do here because
Speaker 1: like you you mentioned before the break, like perceptions have
Speaker 1: changed around capitalism, um and quickly really and even just
Speaker 1: the last ten to fifteen years. And perception tends to
Speaker 1: define our reality, Like how we view things influences um
Speaker 1: the way that we interact with the world around us,
Speaker 1: and and and it seems that we as a society
Speaker 1: have developed developed like um what I would define as
Speaker 1: a bipolar approach towards capitalism and then generally, and then
Speaker 1: towards big businesses specifically, because when Americans are are surveyed,
Speaker 1: the stats show that we don't trust businesses very much,
Speaker 1: at least that's how we respond to folks that do
Speaker 1: the polling. Roughly eighteen percent of folks who were asked
Speaker 1: whether they trust big businesses said yes. So that's um
Speaker 1: a paltry some of people. Most of them are like
Speaker 1: pretty low approval ready, Yeah, no, I don't trust business
Speaker 1: at all. But at the same time, some of the
Speaker 1: biggest businesses out there are actively adored, Like folks love
Speaker 1: their iPhone and they use Google products or or search
Speaker 1: on a daily if not in hourly basis that we're
Speaker 1: fascinated by Tesla cars were amazed at the fact that
Speaker 1: Costco can sell a fully cooked rotist or chicken. For
Speaker 1: There's this disconnect between the way we think about big
Speaker 1: businesses broadly and then the way we interact with them
Speaker 1: in our our daily lives totally man and unfortunately, I
Speaker 1: feel like it's like at the core, like what's at
Speaker 1: the root of this is selfishness, right, because we think, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I want to enjoy the things that I want to
Speaker 1: that I like to purchase or the services that I
Speaker 1: like to participate in, but generally speaking, when it comes
Speaker 1: to these large businesses, I don't trust them. Like it
Speaker 1: makes me think of uh, Like, if you've identified that
Speaker 1: housing affordability as a problem, basically, like what it comes
Speaker 1: down to is that there is not enough housing here
Speaker 1: in the United States, especially as there are more and
Speaker 1: more folks who are looking to buy homes. And so
Speaker 1: one of the most obvious solutions is housing density. Right,
Speaker 1: we're talking about condos, we're talking about apartments. But that
Speaker 1: same person who might be like, oh, yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: we need, they might be the same person that goes
Speaker 1: to a community meaning where they're proposing some apartments on
Speaker 1: the corner and they're in their neighborhood exactly. Yes. And
Speaker 1: so there's this cognitive dissonance here, and that is the
Speaker 1: biggest thing that we're trying to address head on here
Speaker 1: during this episode. And I think it's a good way
Speaker 1: to put it, because I think there there's like one
Speaker 1: thing that we do with our wallets, with our habits,
Speaker 1: with our actions, and there's another thing that we're saying
Speaker 1: with our mouths or thinking with our brains yea, And
Speaker 1: we would argue that what we're doing with our wallets
Speaker 1: really reveals where our part is when it comes to
Speaker 1: these matters. Um and another sort of I guess argument
Speaker 1: here for capitalism is that, like country, to a popular opinion,
Speaker 1: the purpose of a business it's not necessarily to make money.
Speaker 1: That might be mind blowing to some people and they're like,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Of course that's the reason
Speaker 1: businesses exist, like money, Well, profits are necessary of course
Speaker 1: in order to run a business, but the primary reason
Speaker 1: businesses exist is basically to provide value, right And so
Speaker 1: for instance, if this podcast doesn't provide enough value for you,
Speaker 1: like you're gonna find another money podcast to listen to.
Speaker 1: Maybe you'll listen to like true crime, Like I just said,
Speaker 1: I hate Joel so much. I'm done with money podcasts altogether.
Speaker 1: Like the same is true with like a grocery store
Speaker 1: right around the corner, you know, I love Aldi. Is
Speaker 1: Aldi taking an advantage of their customers or are they
Speaker 1: providing a valuable service because I might not personally shop
Speaker 1: at fresh Market myself as an individual, but they certainly
Speaker 1: aren't taking advantage of anyone as long as folks have
Speaker 1: the option, and there are lots of options because of
Speaker 1: the competition you talked about earlier, Matt, And there's just
Speaker 1: so many examples we could come up with here, like
Speaker 1: as to companies that are per binding value, that are
Speaker 1: that are changing things in a way that are making
Speaker 1: things better for us as individuals, Like why have so
Speaker 1: many how do money listeners switch to Mintmobile? Well, part
Speaker 1: probably because we have they're good competition. But but it's
Speaker 1: this fairly new company really on the scene that's offering
Speaker 1: better service and lower prices than the old school cell
Speaker 1: phone companies. People are starting to realize specifically lower prices. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like it's like the same service, uh, for the
Speaker 1: best price exactly. So instead of paying fifty bucks a month,
Speaker 1: I'm paying fifteen and I'm getting really the same exact product.
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, that is capitalism at work. Or why
Speaker 1: are folks leaving big banks for online banks with better features?
Speaker 1: Also capitalism and competition and all the things that we
Speaker 1: love to talk about that we're trying to convince people
Speaker 1: to switch over to exactly, And and this is just
Speaker 1: all voluntary really, like nobody's forcing you to do this.
Speaker 1: Nobody's holding a gun to your head saying like you
Speaker 1: must switch to Mintmobile. We're suggesting it, and you you know,
Speaker 1: many of you have taken advantage, but you don't have
Speaker 1: to if you're like listen, I love paying a hundred
Speaker 1: and twelve dollars a month to Verizon. More power to
Speaker 1: you keep doing it, like you don't have to make
Speaker 1: the switch. You don't have to buy stuff on Amazon
Speaker 1: if you don't want to. Either you do it or
Speaker 1: lots of people do it, because that business has created
Speaker 1: an immense amount of value, and I think that value
Speaker 1: was made even more apparent during the pandemic. During the
Speaker 1: last two years. You can find almost anything you want,
Speaker 1: it's priced reasonably, and that shipped your home in this
Speaker 1: ridiculously short period of time. I mean, I think that's
Speaker 1: a big part of it is that capitalism is not coercive,
Speaker 1: and really it's up to us to decide how we
Speaker 1: want to interact with these with these companies that are
Speaker 1: vying for our dollars. That's right. At the same time, though,
Speaker 1: let's make sure that we are approaching capitalism from you know,
Speaker 1: with a balanced perspective, because it's important to realize that
Speaker 1: free markets they can't fix everything. Um capitalism has broken
Speaker 1: a lot of things on the road to progress. Uh.
Speaker 1: And this is a specifically, this is a force known
Speaker 1: as creative destruction. UH. So for example, as PCs and
Speaker 1: as computers were invented and then adopted by the masses,
Speaker 1: typewriters they went away almost overnight. Smith Corona is an
Speaker 1: old typewriter company, and they began to lose millions of
Speaker 1: dollars a year, uh, completely upending a legitimate business that
Speaker 1: employed a lot of people. But that destruction, it unleashed
Speaker 1: just a torrent of creativity which gave rise ultimately to
Speaker 1: tens of millions of new jobs. Uh. The same thing
Speaker 1: is true with Kodak and the advent of digital cameras.
Speaker 1: They even invented, I think one of the first digital
Speaker 1: cameras ever, I think the first digital camera created it.
Speaker 1: But but they assumed that it was going to cannabalize
Speaker 1: their film business, which is what Kodak was. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was obviously the bulk of their profits. And so
Speaker 1: what they do They didn't release it. They stuck it
Speaker 1: on the shelf, and of course we all know how
Speaker 1: that worked out for Kodak specifically. UH. And so creative
Speaker 1: destruction it causes targeted harm in the short term, but
Speaker 1: it also creates way more opportunity for everyone in the
Speaker 1: long run. That's right. Yeah, we're all happy that we
Speaker 1: have digital cameras now, even though at the time Kodak
Speaker 1: was like, ah, this is like the worst thing that's
Speaker 1: ever happened to us. At the time, it's a threat,
Speaker 1: but over the long haul, it's something that they could
Speaker 1: have gotten behind, and you know, they could have been
Speaker 1: the leader and in digital camera. And some businesses do
Speaker 1: in this process of bringing better ideas and your better
Speaker 1: services and goods to the world. Right, and um, let's
Speaker 1: talk about to Matt, just the creative destruction thing is
Speaker 1: important to mention. It's important to say that there are
Speaker 1: certain specific pockets, uh certain industries and certain locations that
Speaker 1: are negatively impacted as creative destruction takes place. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can look at Detroit as a prime example. But
Speaker 1: here's the thing. You can find things wrong with with
Speaker 1: any system. You know, has capitalism exploited different groups of
Speaker 1: people over the years. The answer to that question is yes.
Speaker 1: And is there such a thing as chrony capitalism? Um, yes,
Speaker 1: that's that exists. To some businesses have benefited from the
Speaker 1: political relationships that they've formed, meaning they get preferential treatment
Speaker 1: thanks to cozy relationships with elected officials, and we would
Speaker 1: say that is a form of capitalism that is not
Speaker 1: pure and not good um and it negatively affects other companies,
Speaker 1: like some some companies are trying to protect themselves, protect
Speaker 1: their company through political means. And you can also, at
Speaker 1: the same time, you can point to a bunch of
Speaker 1: different businesses that aren't great representations of the free market,
Speaker 1: or or even businesses that have actively caused harm to
Speaker 1: lots of people. I'm thinking of Enron or Farinos like
Speaker 1: those are companies that you don't want to mimic, You
Speaker 1: don't want to go by their playbook, because they lied, cheated,
Speaker 1: they were deceptive, and you know that. But you can also,
Speaker 1: at the same time easily point to other economic models,
Speaker 1: and I would say flaws that exist in those are
Speaker 1: even more severe than the ones that exist in the
Speaker 1: capitalist framework, and so those examples they don't negate. We
Speaker 1: would say the overwhelming human progress that's been achieved thanks
Speaker 1: to free markets, and I think we could at this
Speaker 1: point share some stats, Maddie even about just how far
Speaker 1: we've come in the last two and or fifty years,
Speaker 1: largely thanks to the free market system flourishing across the world,
Speaker 1: just longer lifespans, greater wealth achieved, and and really like
Speaker 1: people just having more choice in their lives totally. And
Speaker 1: what we're getting at here is the fact that I mean, oftentimes,
Speaker 1: when there are bad players in a system like capitalism,
Speaker 1: it's not because necessarily of the system. It's because of individuals.
Speaker 1: And what we're arguing here is that with any system,
Speaker 1: they're gonna be folks who screw things up for everybody
Speaker 1: else the benefit though, you know, and we're gonna get
Speaker 1: to this, I think maybe here in a little bit
Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit more about just the self
Speaker 1: cleansing aspects of that capitalism provides. Uh, the companies that
Speaker 1: you mentioned and Ron there knows those are both companies
Speaker 1: that don't exist anymore because of the way the market works.
Speaker 1: In that way, it's self corrects. But like you said,
Speaker 1: there are certain sectors where the free market can run
Speaker 1: a muck, where it can cause a lot of damage.
Speaker 1: I'm specifically thinking about the the Volkswagen emission scandal. I
Speaker 1: think that was a few years ago. But you know,
Speaker 1: public companies, they sometimes they lie or they cover up
Speaker 1: their misdeeds in the pursuit of profits. That's not okay,
Speaker 1: And those examples give capitalism a bad reputation. And of
Speaker 1: course we do need public goods and services. Like Amazon
Speaker 1: as a private company, they can't fix the nation's infrastructure problems, right, Uh.
Speaker 1: They they need public roads and bridges to even have
Speaker 1: a business. And so we believe that a certain amount
Speaker 1: of government services and regulations, public utilities, uh, these things
Speaker 1: are all definitely necessary to prevent abuses of capitalism. But
Speaker 1: that being said, these laws, these regulations, they should not
Speaker 1: keep us from prioritizing free markets in most of the
Speaker 1: areas in our lives. Yeah. Man, I think another argument
Speaker 1: maybe is is that there's less individual security in a
Speaker 1: society that's more steep it in capitalism, like like we
Speaker 1: are here in the United States. There's some truth to
Speaker 1: that argument, um, but I think it's important for us
Speaker 1: to mention what happens if the government doesn't step in
Speaker 1: in in some of these occasions. Well, it turns out
Speaker 1: that we have an incredible array of nonprofits in this
Speaker 1: country too, and Americans are very very generous people. In fact,
Speaker 1: when you look at the rankings, we ranked number one
Speaker 1: in worldwide generosity over the past decades. So yeah, when
Speaker 1: Americans prosper under the capitalist system, they tend to share
Speaker 1: the wealth that they accrue with others in need. And
Speaker 1: you know, while the US doesn't necessarily have as strong
Speaker 1: of a safety net as some other development stations, there's
Speaker 1: still a lot of government aid for folks who are
Speaker 1: in real need. And so yeah, I guess the question
Speaker 1: could be asked, do we need more of that? Do
Speaker 1: we need more government programs? Do we need more money
Speaker 1: going into the hands of the most needy in our society?
Speaker 1: That is a worthwhile debate. That's something that I think
Speaker 1: we would probably admit in some instances there is more
Speaker 1: money needed flowing into the hands of individuals who need
Speaker 1: help in our country. But we I think we can
Speaker 1: have that debate while still appreciating the free market system
Speaker 1: that we've got and how much it has done for
Speaker 1: really all of us. It's that rising tide that's lifted
Speaker 1: all the boats totally. Yeah. And actually, you know, while
Speaker 1: we're talking about the social safety net, job security, like
Speaker 1: that's something else that comes to mind, because you know,
Speaker 1: we were just talking about creative destruction, how job security,
Speaker 1: how it's not guaranteed in a capitalist economy. That might
Speaker 1: definitely be seen as a major downside to capitalism. But
Speaker 1: do we really want a government to prop up companies,
Speaker 1: let alone you know, entire industries that aren't succeeding. I'm
Speaker 1: sure a lot of folks would say no, like, that's
Speaker 1: not what we need, And unfortunately that means individuals are
Speaker 1: going to lose jobs in the moment. But I think
Speaker 1: that the responsibility lies with us as individuals plus our generation.
Speaker 1: You know, like we've also learned that the best way
Speaker 1: to actually earn more is by switching companies, getting a
Speaker 1: new job. And so do you really want the you know,
Speaker 1: like the soul crushing monotony of working for the same company,
Speaker 1: doing the same thing for thirty years in an industry
Speaker 1: that's you know, kind of fading away. I'd be like
Speaker 1: us continue to podcast when nobody listens to podcast any
Speaker 1: more years from ti, Like, what's what's the point? Uh? Like,
Speaker 1: some folks might want to you know, like, some folks
Speaker 1: might like that consistency, and that's totally fine. Folks might
Speaker 1: not want to change, but there's also a room for
Speaker 1: more individual advancement because of capitalism and the options that
Speaker 1: people actually have. Yeah, man, I feel like that's really true.
Speaker 1: And I feel like, yeah, we've tried to give some
Speaker 1: cons and talk about the downside of capitalism, but we
Speaker 1: have destruction that capitalism is causing. It's actually good like
Speaker 1: the long run. So it's it's I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: almost like a picture of bush or a tree getting pruned.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it hurts in the moment, like it's
Speaker 1: not a good thing. It's not something that the tree
Speaker 1: likes or the plan enjoys. But in the end, if
Speaker 1: that means this tree is going to be healthier, if
Speaker 1: it means that this vegetable plant is going to have
Speaker 1: bear more fruit because of you know, in a way
Speaker 1: we can kind of call it discipline, that's being you know,
Speaker 1: provided to this organism. That's how we see creative distruction exactly.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, and our attempts to denigrate capitalism, I
Speaker 1: think still I said good things about it, but we
Speaker 1: have some more reasons that we actually think capitalism is
Speaker 1: a great thing. And um, we will unapologetically tell you
Speaker 1: what those reasons are and we'll get to them right
Speaker 1: after this break, dude. So it totally feels like we're
Speaker 1: just making out with capitalism, like Matt and Joel, they
Speaker 1: just love capitalism, and again we want to reinforce that
Speaker 1: we don't think it's perfect. There are there are some
Speaker 1: shortcomings that it has. I can see it's releasing some
Speaker 1: shirts that are like I love capitalism or something like that. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'll go that far. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I would even wear that, Like, I don't
Speaker 1: because it's just I don't know, Like there's a difference
Speaker 1: between em bray seen something and saying that this is
Speaker 1: the best thing ever, as opposed to giving it like
Speaker 1: the tip of the cap, like it's something that we
Speaker 1: are grateful for and it's something that we're most everybody
Speaker 1: listening to this is benefited and is currently partaking in
Speaker 1: the capitalist system. But obviously there are some unintended consequences. Uh.
Speaker 1: And those I mean because of that, I think we
Speaker 1: try to avoid talking about capitalism in our you know,
Speaker 1: within our culture. But that being said, let's go ahead
Speaker 1: and dig into it. Maybe a few more reasons that
Speaker 1: we feel that capitalism has been so successful. Uh. And
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention how the economist Tyler Cowen he
Speaker 1: he calls the U S a nation of weirdos. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I mentioned that because, like many other countries, have
Speaker 1: more of a reticence towards innovation. Specifically why that is
Speaker 1: that's tough to answer. But the way in which our
Speaker 1: country was founded alongside you know, the melting pot of
Speaker 1: talented humans, it's just created such a diversity of thought
Speaker 1: and talent and that has all led to extraordinary innovation
Speaker 1: here in the US. Uh. You know, like we prize
Speaker 1: this unique individuality. Uh. And it's you know, it's great
Speaker 1: for the most part, but you know that sometimes gets
Speaker 1: out of hand. I'm thinking about how oftentimes celebrities they
Speaker 1: get idolized, um, and the wealthy they get way more
Speaker 1: attention than they probably should be getting. But one of
Speaker 1: the consequences, you know, is that this lionization also leads
Speaker 1: to more risk taking, which ultimately does benefit us all
Speaker 1: But bottom line, the US, it's always been known as
Speaker 1: the land of opportunity, and it's no wonder that nearly
Speaker 1: fifty million immigrants actually live here. Yes, I agree, So
Speaker 1: I think I think that how welcome you we are
Speaker 1: to immigrants and how they have people from all over
Speaker 1: the world have been able to prosper because just under
Speaker 1: this system has been is something worth holding up as
Speaker 1: like one of the reasons that capitalism is so great.
Speaker 1: Another reason, Matt, you mentioned this earlier. You hinted at this,
Speaker 1: the self cleansing nature of capitalism, and I think it's
Speaker 1: like the best part of capitalism. Yeah, it's great, it
Speaker 1: really is. And it's one of those things that in
Speaker 1: the moment, like you said, can be painful for certain
Speaker 1: companies or for certain people who work in a specific sector.
Speaker 1: But yeah, did you know one at one point that
Speaker 1: my Space was considered to monopoly. I think that tells
Speaker 1: you all you need to know about like how capitalism works,
Speaker 1: because I bet a lot of our listeners like, huh,
Speaker 1: what's my space? If you don't remember Tom from my Space,
Speaker 1: Like you're not doing it right, okay, like Matt and
Speaker 1: I we had or you're just you're younger than this
Speaker 1: because we're geriatric millennium. We journaled on zanga dot com
Speaker 1: back in the day. I bet most of our listeners
Speaker 1: don't remember that site either spell it with an X
Speaker 1: and so yeah, these are these are companies that for
Speaker 1: a while they had their moment in the sun, and
Speaker 1: today they either don't exist or nobody knows that they exist.
Speaker 1: Apple was the fifty six largest company today there number one,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, are they gonna be there for forever?
Speaker 1: I wouldn't bet on it, Like just like I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have bet on my Space being number one for forever.
Speaker 1: At the time, Amazon was the largest business in today
Speaker 1: their number four, and yeah, I wouldn't bet on them
Speaker 1: being the top dog for decades to come either, although
Speaker 1: right now in the current moment, it feels like they
Speaker 1: will be. But yeah, a free market where we as
Speaker 1: consumers have the option to vote with our time and
Speaker 1: our money, it dictates the businesses that make the cut,
Speaker 1: and and those businesses that make the cut, it's just
Speaker 1: ever evolving and changing list. It's not always the same
Speaker 1: companies that continue to thrive year after year. Let's right, Yeah, capitalism,
Speaker 1: it's that refiner's fireman and so on the other side
Speaker 1: of the coin, Toys r US they spent twenty four
Speaker 1: years on the fortunate uh, and then they filed for
Speaker 1: bankruptcy a few years ago. Why well, largely because of
Speaker 1: Amazon and the changing landscape for buying toys. The most
Speaker 1: powerful companies are not guaranteed their place on top, and
Speaker 1: they rarely stay there for that long. They must continue
Speaker 1: to innovate otherwise they die, and that makes room for
Speaker 1: just these smaller, more nimble companies with better ideas, who
Speaker 1: can implement those ideas in ways that we feel are
Speaker 1: going to make the market even better. Economist Thomas sol
Speaker 1: said that capitalism, actually it might be more actually be
Speaker 1: described as consumerism and not consumerism in the way that
Speaker 1: we traditionally talked about it here on the show, and
Speaker 1: that's because it's consumers who call the tune and capitalists
Speaker 1: are the one who have to learn to dance to it.
Speaker 1: When you think about it that way, I feel like
Speaker 1: that we've got way more power within the system than
Speaker 1: we normally assume that we do. That's a good point.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we feel like it's our capitalist overlord
Speaker 1: to determine everything that's going to happen in this society,
Speaker 1: when really it's up to us as individuals too we
Speaker 1: determine whether those businesses fail or succeed. We have way
Speaker 1: more free will and options than we realize. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that brings us to another great aspect of capitalism is
Speaker 1: that it decentralizes power. So when we view it through
Speaker 1: the lens that you were just talking about, Matt, it
Speaker 1: really does appear that capitalism is truly the most democratic
Speaker 1: economic system that exists. It's not one dictator or government
Speaker 1: officials a small group of elites in Washington, d C.
Speaker 1: Calling the shots. And it's not even the companies who
Speaker 1: are deciding what's best for us and we just have
Speaker 1: to take it. It's us as individuals who are making
Speaker 1: decisions for what is best for us for our families.
Speaker 1: The market really knows better than the smartest folks out there,
Speaker 1: even the conglomeration of those folks. And yeah, when I
Speaker 1: think of products or institutions that I'm the most frustrated with,
Speaker 1: oftentimes it can be when the government is involved. So
Speaker 1: true DMV getting a built building permit, it took me
Speaker 1: three months to get permits for my and I had
Speaker 1: to go through an almost six month long process just
Speaker 1: to get plans approved. And I'm not saying that those
Speaker 1: aspects of government aren't needed at all, although I will
Speaker 1: say it was over the top and there was no
Speaker 1: need for the extended time frame that it took me
Speaker 1: to have a really small change to my home approved,
Speaker 1: especially when I was following the existing line of the
Speaker 1: house the way it was built and constructed. But but
Speaker 1: it is interesting how we are often served better by
Speaker 1: the companies we choose to do business with rather than
Speaker 1: the government who we are sometimes forced to do business
Speaker 1: with by no choice of our own. Yeah, you're not
Speaker 1: thinking about the great customer experience that you had with
Speaker 1: the I R S when it comes to tax season,
Speaker 1: that's right. I mean, how many millions and millions of
Speaker 1: tax tax returns to tax? Yes, have they still yet
Speaker 1: to you know, there's still refunds due to millions of
Speaker 1: people that that have not received them. And you know,
Speaker 1: obviously pandemic. We're gonna give them a little bit of
Speaker 1: grace and short staff. But at the same time, like
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's worth pointing out those inconsistencies. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: it seems that these are all areas where some privatization
Speaker 1: could definitely help. And yeah, in the end, we we
Speaker 1: feel that markets are the best system for defining value. Uh.
Speaker 1: You you know, you can't make a profit, you can't
Speaker 1: increase your profits without adding to the value that you're
Speaker 1: injecting out into the world. And another thing to capitalism,
Speaker 1: it's not the zero sum game. The more people who
Speaker 1: find purpose in creating value, the more that we are
Speaker 1: all going to benefit. There are entire industries that are
Speaker 1: going to exist in ten years that we're not even
Speaker 1: aware of now, and those wallby industries in areas and
Speaker 1: companies who we are giving our money to, or think
Speaker 1: about the guy we want to give our money to,
Speaker 1: right and think about the guy who created wordle on
Speaker 1: a whim and he sold it to the New York
Speaker 1: Times for more than a million dollars. Yeah, that's all well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what we know. That's all seven figures. But just
Speaker 1: think that, like, he created something in his spare time
Speaker 1: and somehow it's worth that much money. And that was
Speaker 1: something that the New York Times didn't know that they
Speaker 1: needed to add to their arsenal a word games, and
Speaker 1: that was something that the world didn't know that they wanted.
Speaker 1: But that's the beauty of kind of ingenuity and capitalism,
Speaker 1: how that can be brought to the masses through just
Speaker 1: the general act of creating something and trying to add
Speaker 1: value to the world. And I think, really you just
Speaker 1: kind of can't argue with the results that capitalism has created. Like, um,
Speaker 1: it's raised the standard of living for hundreds of millions
Speaker 1: of people, for billions of people around the world, and
Speaker 1: countries that are more recent converts. Let's say, we've seen
Speaker 1: substantial changes in very little time to the standard of
Speaker 1: living of everyday folks. Makes me think of, like Matt,
Speaker 1: when I went to Thailand, uh like five or six
Speaker 1: years ago. It was astounding to see like how well
Speaker 1: their economy was doing, how well ordinary individuals were worth
Speaker 1: thriving inside of that economy as they're like kind of
Speaker 1: really beginning a ramp up into a more free, free
Speaker 1: market economy. And what I had heard before I went
Speaker 1: there from people that had gone decades before, was that
Speaker 1: there was so much poverty. And it's not that there
Speaker 1: wasn't any, but I saw not nearly as much as
Speaker 1: I expect did, And I feel like so much of
Speaker 1: the progress has to be attributed to what's happened with
Speaker 1: just their economic system and be more open to capitalism
Speaker 1: in general. That's right, dude. You know, I kind of
Speaker 1: mentioned this earlier because this episode it doesn't have a
Speaker 1: clear takeaway. You know, this isn't seven Ways to Save
Speaker 1: Money this week. It's not that kind of episode. But
Speaker 1: even still, we hope that we've been able to just
Speaker 1: put capitalism in a different light. You know, we think
Speaker 1: it's important to consider all the different angles to this
Speaker 1: economic system that we're a part of. We hope that
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like we've just been kind of hitting
Speaker 1: you over the head with with the textbook of capitalism,
Speaker 1: but we do. We we we did want to talk
Speaker 1: about the benefits that we have all received from capitalism.
Speaker 1: But ultimately it's sort of like when we're talking about
Speaker 1: how there's always like those there's always gonna be some
Speaker 1: some bad apples in the basket, right, They're always gonna
Speaker 1: be individuals who make it seem like the system that
Speaker 1: we are currently in isn't working out. But ultimately we
Speaker 1: feel that it does come down to the individual and
Speaker 1: the choices that you make and the things that you
Speaker 1: pursue and how it is that you spend your time
Speaker 1: your money. Uh. And so while you know this is
Speaker 1: one of these episodes we're zooming out, we're looking at
Speaker 1: sort of this larger pool of water that we're all
Speaker 1: swimming in, or really it's not even a pool. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like an ocean. We're talking about our country's economy.
Speaker 1: Even still, we feel that so much of our own
Speaker 1: individual outcomes come down to what we do as individuals. Yeah, man,
Speaker 1: I think we can rail against the system. We can
Speaker 1: rage against the machine, or we can kind of say,
Speaker 1: all right, this is this is the reality we live
Speaker 1: in this free market society. How do I, as someone
Speaker 1: who has these gifts, participate in this market economy in
Speaker 1: a way that provides value? And I think when you
Speaker 1: think about it like that, it might actually completely change
Speaker 1: the way you view your job or your desire to
Speaker 1: start your own business, because you're like, you know what,
Speaker 1: if I can provide value in this way, I can
Speaker 1: serve a lot of people and at the same time
Speaker 1: make a living for for my family. Um, that is
Speaker 1: the beauty of this system is that that there is
Speaker 1: boundless opportunity. You can create the opportunity and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of room to run in the capitalist system for
Speaker 1: anybody who wants to serve their fellow human And the
Speaker 1: great thing is it can make you a living as well. So, um,
Speaker 1: that that's kind of how we view capitalism. And uh,
Speaker 1: we hope you stuck around to the end and learned
Speaker 1: a lot during this episode because we're just kind of
Speaker 1: we're just kind of nerdy dudes too, and we we
Speaker 1: like thinking about this stuff. So, and that being said,
Speaker 1: if you completely disagree with us. We would love to
Speaker 1: hear from you, and maybe you know, on the subsequent
Speaker 1: Friday Flight episode here in a couple of days, maybe
Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit more about it. If you
Speaker 1: have a different opinion. If that's you, definitely reach out
Speaker 1: to us, shoot us an email at how the Money
Speaker 1: Pod at gmail dot com. That's right. We always love
Speaker 1: hearing from our listeners. All right, let's get back fellow
Speaker 1: the nerds who might happen to have a different perspective.
Speaker 1: That's right and well and all right, so we're gonna
Speaker 1: get back to the craft beer that we had on
Speaker 1: this episode. But you and I talked before this we
Speaker 1: started recording this episode, and we said, man, isn't it
Speaker 1: crazy that the United States has It's not that there
Speaker 1: aren't great beers in other parts of the world. There
Speaker 1: certainly are. But we have per capita like more great
Speaker 1: beer than any other nation in the world. And if
Speaker 1: the United States were was a communist country, what kind
Speaker 1: of beer would we have? Not we definitely would not
Speaker 1: be drinking this beautiful barrel aged barley. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: We we definitely wouldn't have the variety that we have here.
Speaker 1: And we're certainly lucky to have this beer again. This
Speaker 1: is a bourbon barrel brick kiln by Jackie O's What
Speaker 1: were your thoughts on this one? Okay, so this again
Speaker 1: one of my favorite breweries, and this is a top
Speaker 1: notch beer and and it might be I would say,
Speaker 1: adventures say it's maybe the best barley wine I've ever had,
Speaker 1: at least top three. This is a really really good beer,
Speaker 1: and barley wines are. The problem with that with me
Speaker 1: is that I don't drink barley win is enough to
Speaker 1: like even like really remember like what the top barley
Speaker 1: Wins I've had are. I remember one of the Goose
Speaker 1: Island annual releases. It was legit that was probably not
Speaker 1: the year that they screwed him or something like that.
Speaker 1: That was a long time ago. But this one was
Speaker 1: a little sweet. It was slightly boozy. Had had some oak,
Speaker 1: some vanilla and some raisin notes called on dude raisin
Speaker 1: all the way like dried, yeah, just dried fruit like
Speaker 1: that with some nice creamy notes tongue at the same time.
Speaker 1: And it was it was delicious. You know. Actually, when
Speaker 1: I think, uh, one of our favorite local breweries Monday
Speaker 1: Night they back in the day, they had this beer
Speaker 1: called uh speaking of the economy and whatnot, that was
Speaker 1: called Las Fair And if they still had that beer,
Speaker 1: maybe instead of a Force for Good, which we had recently,
Speaker 1: maybe we should have had Las Fair on. But I
Speaker 1: think that's fair that they that they retired. I think
Speaker 1: it was if I remember correctly, I think it was
Speaker 1: a barley wine that they aged in red wine barrels.
Speaker 1: But anyway, it sounds tasty. I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: why I'm talking about it. I can't buy it anymore.
Speaker 1: It's not a beer that they make. But I completely agree.
Speaker 1: As I thought about how to describe this beer, obviously
Speaker 1: all the notes that you mentioned, but Fatty stood out
Speaker 1: to me as well. It felt like it was just
Speaker 1: like this decadent. It was like, I don't know, like
Speaker 1: if you even a nice piece of toast and maybe
Speaker 1: just like a touch, like like you're just putting the
Speaker 1: butter on thick, you know, and you're eating and just
Speaker 1: like this is like luxurious. That's what I was thinking
Speaker 1: as I was rinking this. It. I don't know, it
Speaker 1: just had like this depth. It had this umm, a
Speaker 1: velvety sort of oh my gosh, totally yeah, and not
Speaker 1: just completely in the texture, but just in the flavors
Speaker 1: and how it all came together. It actually kind of
Speaker 1: reminded me of a Belgian quad as well, because of
Speaker 1: like the you know, like the raising kind of fig
Speaker 1: flavors going on, but it didn't have that Belgian funky
Speaker 1: yeast flavors going on. It's almost like an American quad.
Speaker 1: If that exists. I don't think it does, but I'm
Speaker 1: certainly glad that you and I got to enjoy this beer. Again.
Speaker 1: This is by Jackie Ohs. And if you ever come
Speaker 1: across their beers, I don't think you'll be disappointed. Pick
Speaker 1: one up, yes, pick one up, or three or five
Speaker 1: like there, they make really good beers. So all right, mat,
Speaker 1: that's gonna do it for this episode. For listeners who
Speaker 1: want show notes for this episode, go to our website
Speaker 1: at how to money dot com. And again, please do
Speaker 1: send us an email if you have a counterpoint, we'd
Speaker 1: love to hear it from you. Seriously. How do I
Speaker 1: pod at gmail dot com? All right, man, So that
Speaker 1: is going to be it for this episode until next time.
Speaker 1: Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.