Speaker 1: In a world that's seemingly going dark. It's bad everywhere
Speaker 1: you look. Attempted assassinations, coups in the government, the food's
Speaker 1: being poisoned, and there's no problem finding bad in this world.
Speaker 1: There's a glimmering hope, there's a there's a light coming
Speaker 1: from the most unlikely place in the world right now.
Speaker 1: And so rather than focus in all the dark, let's
Speaker 1: focus on the light, and let's think about a better future. Now.
Speaker 1: Somebody who's been on the ground, boots on the ground,
Speaker 1: helping to spark that revolution, if we'll call it, that.
Speaker 2: Is Michael Peterson.
Speaker 1: Michael Peterson started a movement down there using the most
Speaker 1: unlikely tool, which is bitcoin, which is now on the
Speaker 1: global stage.
Speaker 2: So, Michael, thanks for sitting down with me.
Speaker 3: Hey, it's great to be here with you again.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's been a while since we caught up.
Speaker 1: The glimmering shining hope that we have of a little
Speaker 1: unlikely country. It's pretty amazing. Hopefully people can't pay attention.
Speaker 1: I mean, El Salvador went from the most dangerous country
Speaker 1: in the world to the safest country in the world.
Speaker 2: You've been down there a long time.
Speaker 1: How long have you been down there and how dangerous
Speaker 1: was it and how has it become a lot safer.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we've been down there for twenty years and
Speaker 4: it was actually when we first when we first bought
Speaker 4: our place down there, it was kind of on it
Speaker 4: seemed like it was getting better. But then after the
Speaker 4: housing crisis, that's that's when the gang problem really started
Speaker 4: to proliferate.
Speaker 3: And it was for about ten years.
Speaker 4: It would go back and forth between El Salvador and
Speaker 4: Honduras as being the highest murder rate in the world.
Speaker 3: It was literally off the.
Speaker 4: Charts, worse than a lot of countries that were, you know,
Speaker 4: officially at war.
Speaker 2: Not a title you want, no.
Speaker 3: No, it was, yeah, it was.
Speaker 4: I mean even in our community, Alzante, which is a
Speaker 4: beautiful little beach community, I mean you would see bodies,
Speaker 4: you know, in the street and it was wow. It
Speaker 4: really felt like you were in a war zone. And
Speaker 4: it's crazy how much that has changed now. People who
Speaker 4: come can't even imagine that that's what it was like.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time in Mexico. We're building
Speaker 1: the house in Mexico right now. So we're down there
Speaker 1: a lot and you hear of a lot about murders
Speaker 1: and death in Mexico as well, but from my experience,
Speaker 1: it's never really like in the towns. It's you know,
Speaker 1: out of town, it's the cartels they're fighting, so you
Speaker 1: the numbers are there, but you don't see it.
Speaker 2: I'm curious.
Speaker 1: I mean, you said you saw the body, so that's
Speaker 1: that's obviously a whole different story, was it. But was
Speaker 1: it really kind of just the gangs or did it
Speaker 1: really spill over into just like regular people.
Speaker 4: No, it really spilled over into the regular people because
Speaker 4: the you know, unlike Mexico where it's it's mostly revolves
Speaker 4: around drug trade. There in Alsalvadore, it was about extortion,
Speaker 4: and so it was these the little mom and pop
Speaker 4: vendors that were being extorted and so when they wouldn't pay,
Speaker 4: they would just execute them. And so you would actually
Speaker 4: see it, you know, in the street as you're you know,
Speaker 4: coming down the street, you'd see the body there and
Speaker 4: the police out there, and so it really was something
Speaker 4: that you couldn't get away from. And it for foreigners,
Speaker 4: I mean, we never really felt in danger. It was
Speaker 4: one of those things that you were kind of off
Speaker 4: limits as a foreigner because the repercussions would be much
Speaker 4: longer if they were to kill a foreigner and so,
Speaker 4: and foreigners were just seeing as kind of more troublesome.
Speaker 4: They're more likely to fight back, they're more likely to
Speaker 4: report if they're trying to be extorted. And so it
Speaker 4: didn't affect them directly, but you know, you saw it
Speaker 4: all around you and then you know you're friends with
Speaker 4: the local people in the community, so you saw how
Speaker 4: it affected them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did it affect them? I mean it holds
Speaker 1: them back to they able to plan long term.
Speaker 2: I mean, what were the kind of.
Speaker 4: The mean they so for one thing, most of them,
Speaker 4: their their goal was to get out of the country.
Speaker 4: That was the primary goal was to you know, usually
Speaker 4: to come to the US illegally was the main thought.
Speaker 4: The other thing you'd see you often see people start
Speaker 4: up a business and then they would shut it down
Speaker 4: right away because they would come to them and say, hey,
Speaker 4: you have to pay this much. And a lot of
Speaker 4: times they would make a rational decision, you know it
Speaker 4: can they stay in business and pay this They looked
Speaker 4: at it kind of as a tax, and so they
Speaker 4: would make that decision. But a lot of times what
Speaker 4: the gangs wanted to pay. It just wasn't sustainable, and
Speaker 4: so you would see these businesses come and go and
Speaker 4: shut down real quickly.
Speaker 3: You also had these weird things.
Speaker 4: Businesses would set up and you know, closed neighborhoods, there
Speaker 4: were behind gates and they wouldn't put up any signage.
Speaker 4: They wouldn't it was hard to even know. You had
Speaker 4: to have like an inside track to even know where
Speaker 4: the business was because they were always trying to stay
Speaker 4: one step ahead of the gangs, which obviously makes it
Speaker 4: very hard to run a profitable business if you can't
Speaker 4: even put a.
Speaker 3: Sock out front.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So then everything just kind of continues to spiral downhill.
Speaker 1: I mean there's less businesses being started, there's less money
Speaker 1: to go around, there's less jobs. People don't have as
Speaker 1: much money to spend with other businesses, and so it
Speaker 1: was like this is spiral that it started.
Speaker 4: Oh, it was a cycle of destruction because then you
Speaker 4: have the parents leaving.
Speaker 3: They'd go to the US.
Speaker 4: So you have the kids growing up without their parents around,
Speaker 4: which then become prey to the gangs because they don't
Speaker 4: have any family there and so the gang provided family
Speaker 4: for them.
Speaker 3: So as that as the gangs grew. That made it.
Speaker 4: Less and less profitable to run a business there, which
Speaker 4: made more people flee. So it was kind of like
Speaker 4: that's so most people just felt like there was no
Speaker 4: future in El Salvador.
Speaker 1: And I heard that they even preyed on the kids
Speaker 1: because of like the age difference and like kids couldn't
Speaker 1: really be prosecuted for crime. So then really those kids
Speaker 1: became a big target.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it was usually the twelve thirteen year olds
Speaker 4: that were the triggerman. And for one thing, they couldn't
Speaker 4: be prosecuted as doults. It's another thing, you know, for them,
Speaker 4: it was kind of like a video game. They don't
Speaker 4: understand the repercussions of what they're doing. Yeah, and so
Speaker 4: they could get these kids to go in and you know,
Speaker 4: just blast people away without really thinking about it. You know,
Speaker 4: as people get old er, even hardened criminals, they start
Speaker 4: to you know, think more about the repercussions of what
Speaker 4: they're doing.
Speaker 3: But as a kid, it just seemed the game to them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, obviously, you know with Bitcoin beach, you know, that's
Speaker 1: where the kind of the world a lot of the
Speaker 1: worlds are paying attention. But where did the shift, Where
Speaker 1: do you see now looking backwards, where do you think
Speaker 1: that shift in momentum started to go from this downward
Speaker 1: spiral the most dangerous country in the world, Like, what
Speaker 1: was the spark?
Speaker 2: Do you think?
Speaker 3: I think it was was two things.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think, and I think they happened in
Speaker 4: a synergistic way. So I definitely give credit to the
Speaker 4: President bu Kelly. He came in and really was willing
Speaker 4: to shake things up. The previous politicians it had all
Speaker 4: been about getting in power so you could drain as
Speaker 4: much money from the state as possible, and he really
Speaker 4: shifted that where he wanted to see real change come.
Speaker 4: Even people within his own party that were corrupt, he
Speaker 4: went after them, and he really made people feel like
Speaker 4: for the first time that there was potentially going to
Speaker 4: be a future in El Salvador. It happened to be
Speaker 4: that we had started the bitcoin project at that same time,
Speaker 4: and so they were seeing just the impact that bitcoin has.
Speaker 3: You know, it's like a mind virus.
Speaker 4: It shifts people's perspective, gives them a lower time preference,
Speaker 4: makes them think longer term, and makes them hopeful about
Speaker 4: the future. And so we were seeing this project that
Speaker 4: started as this very small thing and al Xante grow
Speaker 4: and start, you know, affecting the communities around us. We
Speaker 4: started like a lifeguard program. There was the number of
Speaker 4: kids attending high school like triple people were going to college.
Speaker 4: It was all these different not just saving in bitcoin,
Speaker 4: but all these secondary and tertiary impacts of bitcoin. And
Speaker 4: so while the government was making these big changes on
Speaker 4: the national level, these things happening in Alzonte, and then
Speaker 4: they embraced saw what was happening there and said, hey,
Speaker 4: let's combine these forces. And so I think it was
Speaker 4: you know, all of these things coming together in kind
Speaker 4: of a magical way.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, where there's no hope, the people perish kind of
Speaker 1: a thing. Right, So when the president came in and
Speaker 1: showed that there was going to be change happening, and
Speaker 1: then people were hopeful for that. And then as well
Speaker 1: as the bitcoin thing allowed people to think more long term,
Speaker 1: and that created more hope.
Speaker 3: And also brings in business and opportunity.
Speaker 4: And they saw tourists, you know, people cared about El
Speaker 4: Salvador all of a sudden, I mean really put El
Speaker 4: Salvador on the world map when he made that decision
Speaker 4: to make it legal tender people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that was that was. I mean, that kind
Speaker 1: of came about. I want to get to that, but
Speaker 1: I'm just curious. So you were in the United States
Speaker 1: and you spent like half your year in El Salvador
Speaker 1: and half your year in the United States kind of thing.
Speaker 4: We were there like nine months in El Salvador. In
Speaker 4: three months we'd come back for the summers of the US.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you were kind of one in, one out.
Speaker 1: And I guess the question that I'm thinking about or
Speaker 1: asking is it seems like it's sort of back to
Speaker 1: the hope in the air of the directionality, if you will,
Speaker 1: because I try to think about, like the United States
Speaker 1: is going in a horrible direction and things look very bleak.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, if I want to shift
Speaker 1: my perspective, it's also still probably the greatest place in
Speaker 1: the world to live, but the hope is kind.
Speaker 2: Of gone because we see where it's going.
Speaker 1: So even though it's still probably the best place in
Speaker 1: the world to live, it's heavy because of where we're going.
Speaker 1: Where's El Salvador is still one of the poorest countries
Speaker 1: in the world. It is like the services are poor, right,
Speaker 1: et cetera, The roads are bad, et cetera. But the
Speaker 1: hope is different, the energy of the direction is different.
Speaker 2: And so really even though the.
Speaker 1: Current conditions couldn't be more opposite, the directions they're going
Speaker 1: are different, and that creates a different energy.
Speaker 3: Is that right, No, one hundred percent.
Speaker 4: I think that's one thing people miss and or underestimate,
Speaker 4: is just the impact of the animal spirits in a population.
Speaker 3: Like if the population.
Speaker 4: Thinks that tomorrow is going to be better, more likely
Speaker 4: to save, they're more likely to invest in education, they're
Speaker 4: more likely to defer current purchases just for gratification, more
Speaker 4: for investment, and to think longer term, where if you
Speaker 4: think things are going to be worse in the future,
Speaker 4: you're just gonna live for the day. And so I
Speaker 4: think that is really what makes the difference between economies
Speaker 4: and countries that are on the upswing and those are
Speaker 4: on the downswing. It's just that perspective and that that hope.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: And so then you're around people who also have that,
Speaker 1: and so to your point, living for today versus living
Speaker 1: long term, and so then it's just the whole culture
Speaker 1: gets dragged down.
Speaker 2: So so you.
Speaker 1: You were there, you've been there for a while, and
Speaker 1: then one little sliver of hope in that.
Speaker 2: Country that you said kind of start.
Speaker 1: At the same time was then this project in Alesonte
Speaker 1: which has now been dubb Bitcoin Beach.
Speaker 2: Give us the origin of that, like what was the
Speaker 2: spark for that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we had you know that Alsante where a starter.
Speaker 3: That's where that's where I live.
Speaker 4: You know, my wife and I were working with missionaries
Speaker 4: and in the country. We moved to El Salvador to
Speaker 4: work with like a broad base of different missionaries there,
Speaker 4: and we were based on the beach, mostly because I
Speaker 4: like to surf and so I wanted to be on
Speaker 4: the beach. And you know, even in Alzonte, though there
Speaker 4: was this kind of quaint tourist town, the gangs ran everything,
Speaker 4: and so we had an opportunity to start some youth
Speaker 4: programs with some local leaders and really start to try
Speaker 4: to change the mindset of the youth there. And originally
Speaker 4: we were it wasn't involved with bitcoin. I was a bitcoinner,
Speaker 4: but I wasn't really thinking that. So this was probably
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen did that happen that we started the youth
Speaker 4: programs there and then but you know, and I was
Speaker 4: in the bitcoin but I didn't really you know, you
Speaker 4: think of that as like a separate world. And there
Speaker 4: were a lot of times where I was thinking, you know,
Speaker 4: as we were trying to bring money down to you know,
Speaker 4: buy vehicles for the project or things like that, and
Speaker 4: it was a headache using the wire system. I was like, man,
Speaker 4: if we just use bitcoin, but I never envisioned that
Speaker 4: that would actually be. And so in twenty nineteen it
Speaker 4: was introduced to somebody that was in early in the
Speaker 4: bitcoin space that wanted to see bitcoin circular economies rise up,
Speaker 4: and they heard about the work we were doing in
Speaker 4: El Salvador and they said, hey, maybe maybe there's a
Speaker 4: connection there. They were supporting some other ministries that we
Speaker 4: were familiar with, and so I thought, hey, I doubt
Speaker 4: it's gonna you know, it would work, but let's take
Speaker 4: a chance and meet.
Speaker 3: And so had this crazy meeting.
Speaker 4: It wasn't even the donor, it was his representative because
Speaker 4: he wanted to remain anonymous, but heard the story of Hey,
Speaker 4: there's somebody there that really sees the bitcoin that they
Speaker 4: have from early days as not just the value in
Speaker 4: the monetary value, but the way using bitcoin as currency
Speaker 4: as it was meant to be used, will actually impact society.
Speaker 4: And so they kind of challenged us to think of
Speaker 4: a way to start a system that could begin to
Speaker 4: pull away from the fiat system.
Speaker 2: Still there's still a lot of people that want to
Speaker 2: do good in this world. That's amazing.
Speaker 1: So they gave you a bitcoin, you broke it down
Speaker 1: into the hundred million satoshi's that are available, and then
Speaker 1: what I mean, you start giving it to people to say, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give it to you, but you need to
Speaker 1: spend it, or you talk to businesses about buying and
Speaker 1: selling it, or how did that then get going?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So initially we just used it in the projects
Speaker 4: we already doing. So we were, you know, we'd been
Speaker 4: paying the youth to clean the river and the beach,
Speaker 4: just you know, mostly just try to keep them occupied.
Speaker 4: It also gave us a chance to walk alongside them
Speaker 4: and mentor them. And when I say this, I mean
Speaker 4: more like the local team members there that were doing that.
Speaker 4: I tried to remain behind the scenes as much as possible.
Speaker 3: I just I'm very much a.
Speaker 4: Proponent that things need to come from the local level
Speaker 4: and from people that are in the community. And so
Speaker 4: we started using bitcoin, you know, to compensate them. And
Speaker 4: it was Originally, we just thought it would be like,
Speaker 4: you know, paying them and it wouldn't make a difference
Speaker 4: so if we were paying them in dollars or bitcoin,
Speaker 4: but we saw when we just started paying them in bitcoin,
Speaker 4: it really changed the way they started thinking about things
Speaker 4: because they became curious about money, like what is money?
Speaker 4: They thought about that for the first time, they started
Speaker 4: considering the cost of spending something now versus holding it
Speaker 4: for later, because they understood that this was most likely
Speaker 4: appreciating value over time, and so they for the first
Speaker 4: time understood deferred gratification.
Speaker 3: And so we saw these things happened.
Speaker 4: This was on a very very small level when this
Speaker 4: was happening, and then we had a podcast. Peter McCormick
Speaker 4: came in and spent some time with us, and then
Speaker 4: when he did some things, it kind of started to
Speaker 4: blow up. We started getting number of bitcoin tourists that
Speaker 4: started coming in and we were able to expand the programs.
Speaker 4: And then COVID hit and that really gave us the
Speaker 4: opportunity to expand it to the whole community. Anybody who's
Speaker 4: worked in in any type of development work understands that,
Speaker 4: you know a lot of whelming people come in with
Speaker 4: projects and wind up doing a lot more harm than good,
Speaker 4: because you if you just throw a bunch of money
Speaker 4: at people a lot of time, you disincentivize them to work.
Speaker 4: You can distort the local economy and actually put local
Speaker 4: businesses out of business if you start providing free services.
Speaker 4: So it's it's always a balance, and so we wanted
Speaker 4: to be very aware of that. But when COVID hit,
Speaker 4: everything was locked down, people were not allowed to work,
Speaker 4: people were going hungry, and the businesses were going on
Speaker 4: business because nobody had any money. So it gave us
Speaker 4: kind of the freedom to do like a community wide
Speaker 4: disbursement of bitcoin, and we started sending bitcoin.
Speaker 3: To the stimulus.
Speaker 4: Very much like a stimulus it was, and probably ninety
Speaker 4: percent of the families were receiving you know, I can't
Speaker 4: remember how many SATs it was at the time that
Speaker 4: we were sending out, but you know, it was enough
Speaker 4: to buy maybe half their basic food items for the month,
Speaker 4: and so but it wasn't distortive in any way because
Speaker 4: they weren't allowed to work anyways, and so it really
Speaker 4: kept these families fed and it also kept the businesses alive,
Speaker 4: and it made it very easy for us to onboard
Speaker 4: businesses because it was the only currency circulating in the community,
Speaker 4: and so they were coming rather than us happened to
Speaker 4: come to them and try to orange pill, and they
Speaker 4: were coming to us like, hey, how do we how
Speaker 4: do we.
Speaker 3: Get involved in this?
Speaker 4: And so it really helped supercharge it and set the
Speaker 4: stage for you know, for what later you know, became this.
Speaker 4: It became ubiquitous within the community that the majority of
Speaker 4: the businesses are accepting bitcoin.
Speaker 2: So was this happening.
Speaker 1: So this you said, like when Hayley came in and
Speaker 1: started changing things was kind of around the same time,
Speaker 1: So around twenty nineteen ish is when you started kind
Speaker 1: of the project there and then right so that was
Speaker 1: kind of coming up to the seash.
Speaker 4: So we started a little bit before he was elected,
Speaker 4: because I remember he was on the scene.
Speaker 3: It was during it was campaign season, and I remember.
Speaker 4: Actually when I did a podcast with Peter, I remember
Speaker 4: telling him, I like, there's this new president, and I
Speaker 4: think that there's a possibility that he could be the
Speaker 4: first president to adopt bitcoin as legal tender.
Speaker 3: Like he has this sense of wanting to embrace new things.
Speaker 4: Everybody thought it was crazy at the time, and I
Speaker 4: was like no, I see this happening.
Speaker 3: And so it was funny that it actually came to be.
Speaker 3: We were definitely swinging for the fences there.
Speaker 1: How was it that that became on his map like
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, was someone from his team alerted
Speaker 1: him he wanted to come take a look at it,
Speaker 1: or like, you know, did it just get so big
Speaker 1: and it made so much change in the country that
Speaker 1: he couldn't ignore it, or how did that work?
Speaker 3: I think a couple things.
Speaker 4: There was a Forbes article that came out talking about
Speaker 4: the projects, and it was probably one of the first
Speaker 4: articles about l Salvador that was positive that wasn't talking
Speaker 4: about the gangs and the violence, and it was talking
Speaker 4: about this new innovative project that was happening in El
Speaker 4: Salvador by a major publication. So I think that kind
Speaker 4: of put it on their radar. And then we really
Speaker 4: tried to engage the government from early stages because we
Speaker 4: didn't want them to hear rumors like oh, bitcoin.
Speaker 3: Money laundering, drug, you know, all the.
Speaker 4: Negative connotations that came with bitcoin, especially in the earlier days,
Speaker 4: and so we would be very open with them.
Speaker 3: We were working with the.
Speaker 4: Ministry of Tourism to promote tourism through bitcoin. We also
Speaker 4: established the country's first lifeguard program. They didn't have any
Speaker 4: lifeguard program in the country, and there would be probably
Speaker 4: about three hundred people that would drown each year, you know,
Speaker 4: some of them tourists, but.
Speaker 3: Most of them locals.
Speaker 4: And so we brought in a team to do the
Speaker 4: full I think it was one hundred and twenty hour
Speaker 4: course with the International Life Saving Foundation to get them
Speaker 4: internationally certified, and then the whole all the beaches in
Speaker 4: the surrounding region around Alzante. We paid these lifeguards. I
Speaker 4: think there was ninety that went through the training. We
Speaker 4: were paying them in bitcoin to patrol these beaches, literally
Speaker 4: saving you know, dozens of lives just in that region,
Speaker 4: and so I think they saw like the impact of that.
Speaker 4: And then we were able to have a meeting with
Speaker 4: the Minister of the Economy, Miles.
Speaker 3: Do you know Myles suit her. Yeah, so Miles was
Speaker 3: happening to.
Speaker 4: Be in town, and so we got this meeting, and
Speaker 4: you know, we thought it would be a brief meeting,
Speaker 4: and she came in with all her for aids and
Speaker 4: we sat down for three hours and just really tried
Speaker 4: to show how adopting bitcoin could change the whole narrative
Speaker 4: about El Salvador. Like it was really, from our point
Speaker 4: of view, the only way that they could flip the
Speaker 4: script about El Salvador from people thinking of it as
Speaker 4: gangs and violence to thinking of it as this innovative
Speaker 4: country that was leading the way way forward and so
Speaker 4: and of course we knew that Boukelly was somebody who had,
Speaker 4: you know, international ambitions. He wants to leave a legacy.
Speaker 4: I think he wants to go down in the history books.
Speaker 4: And so we were like, hey, this is the way
Speaker 4: he can go down in the history books. Like there's
Speaker 4: coming from a small country like El Salvador. It's very
Speaker 4: hard to spark worldwide change. But if he is the
Speaker 4: first one to adopt bitcoin as legal tender, like nobody
Speaker 4: else will have that claim, he will be in the
Speaker 4: history books. So we kept kind of pushing from that angle.
Speaker 4: How much of that impacted it, I don't know. Maybe
Speaker 4: there was other things, probably very impact so it's hard
Speaker 4: to tell, but it was it was definitely on our radar.
Speaker 4: We saw we never want to rely on government, but
Speaker 4: it's much easier if the government is going in the
Speaker 4: same direction as you than trying to fight you on things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you you know that's in this kind of space specifically,
Speaker 1: but even just overall, you have that balance of like,
Speaker 1: I don't really want to be in politics, but if
Speaker 1: we're called to be good citizens, then that means we
Speaker 1: are involved. Yeah, And so Jordan Peterson says that if
Speaker 1: you abdicate your power, then a tyrant's going to take
Speaker 1: it every time. So it's like most of us just
Speaker 1: want to focus on our family and our business and whatever.
Speaker 1: But if we don't take that responsibility, then we get
Speaker 1: what we get kind of a thing. So if we're
Speaker 1: gonna you know, if anyone's going to run it, hopefully
Speaker 1: it's good representatives of that. Now, you started buying that
Speaker 1: started in twenty nineteen, so that was sort of coming
Speaker 1: out of the bear market. We kind of had this
Speaker 1: run up with thein in twenty twenty, the price of bitcoin,
Speaker 1: the US dollar value of bitcoin crashed really heavy. So
Speaker 1: I'm curious what it was like from twenty nineteen into
Speaker 1: twenty twenty. Because you said people start thinking about long
Speaker 1: term preference, right, they probably saw the value evasion of
Speaker 1: Big One going up, the purchasing power of bitcoin going up,
Speaker 1: so they started thinking about saving but then it crashed
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty and very dramatically, so I'm curious what
Speaker 1: that was like. And then they started running back up again,
Speaker 1: and then it crashed again. So how has the ups
Speaker 1: and downs been when you're trying to use it to
Speaker 1: like plan your daily food or weekly food kind of thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think you know, these the people in
Speaker 4: Al Salvador kind of come into it the same way
Speaker 4: most of us have come into You have to go.
Speaker 3: Through at least one cycle before you kind of realize.
Speaker 2: You have to get punched in the face once exactly.
Speaker 4: So you know, when when the first crashes were happening,
Speaker 4: you know, especially were like we had that big drop
Speaker 4: off when when COVID was starting. Yeah, people were freaking
Speaker 4: out because we had a lot of stores that had
Speaker 4: been accepting it, and you know, they're on you know, calling.
Speaker 3: Us at two am, like when the world's happening.
Speaker 4: So we had to just kind of handhold them, give
Speaker 4: them the allita, Hey, this is what's happened in the past.
Speaker 4: There were even in early days where we would personally
Speaker 4: sometimes like reimburse them.
Speaker 3: For their losses.
Speaker 4: So, you know, because you just felt a sense of responsibility,
Speaker 4: and it was you know, we're not talking about crazy
Speaker 4: huge amounts for them, it was life changing amounts. You know,
Speaker 4: for us, it wasn't you know, something that was going
Speaker 4: to be that impactful. So we would walk with them
Speaker 4: in that, but then also try to educate them and like, hey,
Speaker 4: this is the history of it, this is how this
Speaker 4: is normal for bitcoin. But over the long term, this
Speaker 4: is the direction that it moves in. So if there's
Speaker 4: something that you need to pay next week, then yeah,
Speaker 4: maybe it's.
Speaker 3: Better for you to hold that in dollars to be able.
Speaker 4: To make that payment, But if this is something long term,
Speaker 4: it's going to be much more beneficial for you saving
Speaker 4: in this. But the other aspect of it is rather
Speaker 4: is the Bitcoin network kind of separating that from Bitcoin
Speaker 4: the currency. The network for them provided them this freedom
Speaker 4: to do electronic payments to you know, have basically a
Speaker 4: bank account on their phone, all these things that they
Speaker 4: hadn't had before. So there was even with the volat utility,
Speaker 4: the benefits that it brought of actually being connected to
Speaker 4: a worldwide network for a lot of people made it
Speaker 4: worth it.
Speaker 3: And you know, they were very innovative.
Speaker 4: They learned to ride the waves we would see when
Speaker 4: when Strike came in. A lot before that people were
Speaker 4: using the Bitcoin Beach wallet. When Strike came in, they
Speaker 4: would use the both wallets and they would they would
Speaker 4: basically use.
Speaker 3: Them as like a trading vehicle.
Speaker 4: When they wanted to move the dollars, they would move
Speaker 4: it into their Strike wallet. At that time, strike only
Speaker 4: you could only hold it as dollars. You couldn't hold
Speaker 4: it as bitcoin. Yeah, and then they would move it
Speaker 4: back and forth, and so you know, they would figure
Speaker 4: out the ways to kind of mitigate the risk. But
Speaker 4: it's then we had the challenge on the other side.
Speaker 4: When you have the upswing, people start to get that
Speaker 4: speculative fever and they're telling us, oh, yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker 4: sell my house and to buy bitcoin, or you know,
Speaker 4: I'm gonna borrow money to buy a bit. And so
Speaker 4: then we're on the other side like, hey, no, like
Speaker 4: this is super volatile, you could get wiped out.
Speaker 3: Like just it's long term.
Speaker 4: Just steadily accumulate, use it in your daily life as currency.
Speaker 4: Try to keep pulling back and removing yourself from the
Speaker 4: fiat system.
Speaker 3: But don't become a speculator.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, I'm building a house down
Speaker 1: in Mexico, and I'm really seeing it firsthand because like
Speaker 1: the building materials, some are coming from America, some are
Speaker 1: coming from Europe, some are like so like we're getting invoices,
Speaker 1: but the invoices are shifting all the time from time
Speaker 1: I get the invoice of that time to pay because
Speaker 1: the exchange rates are constantly moving around.
Speaker 2: And it's making me.
Speaker 1: Realize for the first time how much everyone is forced
Speaker 1: to be a speculator, you know, being on a dollar standard.
Speaker 1: I don't really realize this, but now, like I'm buying
Speaker 1: stuff in euros and stuff in dollars and stuff in pesos,
Speaker 1: and like trying to manage that has been very difficult
Speaker 1: and more importantly for them. I see the people in
Speaker 1: Mexic with the people that are giving the invoices and importing,
Speaker 1: like it's like almost it's a nightmare for them and
Speaker 1: forcing them to be a speculator.
Speaker 4: Well, how hard has it been just trying to get
Speaker 4: them paid too, to get money down there?
Speaker 1: Yeah, luckily that hasn't been too bad. Most of them
Speaker 1: have American bank accounts I can wire into, so my
Speaker 1: general contractor as an American bank account, my main like
Speaker 1: appliance guy, which was a lot of money. You know,
Speaker 1: they have American bank so that's been a little bit easier,
Speaker 1: but you're certainly moving money out of the country is difficult.
Speaker 1: One thing that most people don't realize is that there's
Speaker 1: you know, approximately a billion, billion and a half adults
Speaker 1: in the world that don't have access to banking. A
Speaker 1: lot of them don't have access to bankings they don't
Speaker 1: have permission to join so they don't have the right
Speaker 1: documentation or whatever it is, or a sanctioned country. When
Speaker 1: I came down to Bitcoin Beach and tried to get
Speaker 1: a little program off the ground that unfortunately didn't work,
Speaker 1: But I realized for the first time that a lot
Speaker 1: of people in ell Soalfimare didn't have access to banking
Speaker 1: because they didn't have enough money. So they didn't have
Speaker 1: enough money to pay the monthly fee. And then merchants
Speaker 1: weren't able to get point of sell or merchant accounts
Speaker 1: because they didn't have enough transactions. So like there, maybe
Speaker 1: they were allowed to be in the system, but they
Speaker 1: couldn't afford it.
Speaker 4: But that goes back to the problems with KYC and AM.
Speaker 4: They've put this high price on bringing people into the
Speaker 4: banking system. So we've locked literally billions of people out
Speaker 4: of the banking system because it just will never be
Speaker 4: profitable to bank them. It's not that they don't have
Speaker 4: the documentation, but it's expensive for the banks to do
Speaker 4: all these compliance procedures. So it really makes these people unbankable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then if they can't get into the financial system,
Speaker 1: then they can't get into the world. You know, I
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, the invention of the smartphone. It's
Speaker 1: like now we could learn anything, meet anybody, do anything,
Speaker 1: and like you have kids now that have an Instagram
Speaker 1: account could make a hundred thousand dollars, but only if
Speaker 1: they can get into the banking system. And so Bitcoin
Speaker 1: was able to kind of give that to them. What
Speaker 1: about the remittance thing? So I think about thirty percent
Speaker 1: of El Salvador's GDP comes for remittances, and so if
Speaker 1: I wanted to send money down there, that's very inconvenient
Speaker 1: for me. Western union't have to get cash, go stand
Speaker 1: in line, the whole thing. But then how do they
Speaker 1: get it down in El Salvador or how were they?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: So they you know, they have offices there that they
Speaker 4: would go to receive usually they have to go in
Speaker 4: person to pick it up. You know, there's fees involved,
Speaker 4: it's right, but a lot of them don't. Yeah, they
Speaker 4: don't have their own vehicles, and so they're riding the bus.
Speaker 4: That's it's definitely very inconvenient in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 4: But you know, that's why there's so much promise with
Speaker 4: with bitcoin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 4: It's It's one thing you find with people is people
Speaker 4: are creatures of habit and so just because something's better
Speaker 4: doesn't mean people are going to immediately move to it.
Speaker 4: It takes there's usually a process of them discovering that,
Speaker 4: especially something very personal like money, People like, no, I
Speaker 4: know how to do this, and even though it costs
Speaker 4: me this, so they have.
Speaker 3: To kind of be you know, aided along the way.
Speaker 4: And we're seeing that gradually happen as people kind of
Speaker 4: gradually shift to that. The other great thing that we've seen,
Speaker 4: and this is something that people underestimate and that people
Speaker 4: that aren't even using bitcoin are benefiting from El Salvador's
Speaker 4: adoption of bitcoin, is Western Union and money Gram. All
Speaker 4: these companies see the threat and so they've all pushed
Speaker 4: their fees way down. I'd say about they've kint them
Speaker 4: probably competitionty percent, and they've made the experience better because
Speaker 4: now they realize they're having to compete with somebody being
Speaker 4: able to send you know, from their phone to somebody
Speaker 4: else's phone and not having an intermediary. So it's really
Speaker 4: forced them to step up their game. And so now
Speaker 4: you have literally you know, million plus Salvadorans and that
Speaker 4: are benefiting from bitcoin, that aren't even using bitcoin, but
Speaker 4: they're benefiting from the competition that the bitcoin.
Speaker 2: Well economy is benefiting.
Speaker 1: I mean, now there's more money in the economy overall, right,
Speaker 1: so that's a big deal. Now we talked about not
Speaker 1: everyone has act to banking. A lot of people who
Speaker 1: can't afford it because the expensive a kyc et cetera.
Speaker 1: And so one thing I think about, you know, in
Speaker 1: regards to a bitcoin adoption, you know, from a US
Speaker 1: centric lens, move some of your savings in there. We say,
Speaker 1: you know, don't invest what you can't afford to lose.
Speaker 1: If you can't, you know, lock it up for a
Speaker 1: couple of years, et cetera. But people down there don't
Speaker 1: even have money to pay for a checking account. So
Speaker 1: I think out in these developing countries and I know
Speaker 1: you know, have ties down in Peru and other countries
Speaker 1: like that, so where people are living on like five
Speaker 1: bucks a day, like they're not really saving. So I
Speaker 1: think sometimes like how does bitcoin help people that aren't saving?
Speaker 1: And so you mentioned, you know, some people are trying
Speaker 1: to be speculators, but if there's people that are so
Speaker 1: poor they don't really have long term savings, they can't
Speaker 1: think about the long term vie of bitcoin, I mean,
Speaker 1: is it really even helping them? I mean directly as
Speaker 1: opposed to indirectly or yeah.
Speaker 3: You would be surprised.
Speaker 4: And I went into this thinking that same thing, like
Speaker 4: these people make so little, there's no way that they'd
Speaker 4: be able to save. But the same time, you look
Speaker 4: around and there's you know, McDonald's everywhere and Coca Cola everywhere,
Speaker 4: and all these consumer goods that these people are buying.
Speaker 4: And so even though they're not making that much money,
Speaker 4: they are making choices every day where they could choose
Speaker 4: to save. But it's it For a lot of them,
Speaker 4: it seemed pointless, and so buying that coke was like
Speaker 4: the you know, reward for a very hard day. But
Speaker 4: when they switched over to a bitcoin standard, they really
Speaker 4: start realizing the cost of buying that Coca cola because
Speaker 4: those SATs that they're going to spend on that are
Speaker 4: going to.
Speaker 3: Be worth a lot more in the future.
Speaker 4: And so we saw people that I would have told
Speaker 4: you there's no way we can expect them to save
Speaker 4: because their salaries too low, started saving and accumulated money
Speaker 4: and you would, you know, see on their phone. You're like,
Speaker 4: what you got like a month's salary in SATs, like
Speaker 4: on your phone and before you usually had your money
Speaker 4: spent before you even received it. And they're like, yoh, yeah,
Speaker 4: I'm saving up for to replace my roof, for to
Speaker 4: get my teeth fixed.
Speaker 3: And so we've seen that.
Speaker 4: Really, the the thought that a lot of us have
Speaker 4: that these people aren't capable of saving is untrue.
Speaker 3: Like they are capable. The incentives just have to be aligned.
Speaker 2: That's good.
Speaker 1: Now Here we are about four years or so into
Speaker 1: this experiment. There's a lot you know, mainstream media has
Speaker 1: to your point, the first time was talking positive about it.
Speaker 1: We've seen a lot pieces come out talk about negative
Speaker 1: about it. So we've heard both both back and forth.
Speaker 1: Some reports come back and say that bitcoin isn't really
Speaker 1: being used there, there's really nowhere to spend it. It's
Speaker 1: not as as as proliferated as people would think it
Speaker 1: would be. So we hear both sides of the story
Speaker 1: where we come in four years, like where is it
Speaker 1: at right now?
Speaker 3: So it's much further along than I ever would have dreamed.
Speaker 4: You can, you know, it's it's it's just and it
Speaker 4: really depends on where your what your expectations are of
Speaker 4: My expectation is these things are decade long transformation.
Speaker 3: That's it's not going to happen overnight.
Speaker 4: But there's many people living in El Salvador that the
Speaker 4: only live on bitcoin. You can you know, the major
Speaker 4: supermarkets take bitcoin. The you know, we've bought vehicles from
Speaker 4: dealership with bitcoin and not just in bitcoin ba No,
Speaker 4: not just in bitcoin Beach. It's now. If you want
Speaker 4: to be able to go to any store you want
Speaker 4: and expect to use bitcoin, that's not going.
Speaker 3: To be realistic.
Speaker 4: But if you there's a network of stores, like I said,
Speaker 4: the main supermarkets, their version of Costco accepts bitcoin and
Speaker 4: their Lightning payments.
Speaker 3: Now, so it's super easy.
Speaker 4: So you know, like when we were buying vehicles, we
Speaker 4: chose to buy from a dealership that accepted bitcoin that
Speaker 4: we weren't. You know, we maybe would have bought a
Speaker 4: different vehicle if they had. Other dealerships were accepting bitcoin,
Speaker 4: but we bought Mahindra pickup trucks because that was the dealership.
Speaker 3: We wanted to support the dealership that was accepting.
Speaker 4: So you do have to make some trade offs if
Speaker 4: you want to live on a bitcoin standard. So so
Speaker 4: for people that think that like you can use it everywhere, yeah,
Speaker 4: definitely not. But the rate at which it's growing is
Speaker 4: much faster and the adoptions much faster than when credit
Speaker 4: cards were introduced to Elsavador or even into the US.
Speaker 4: You look at credit cards when they were introduced, how
Speaker 4: long it took before they were really taken everywhere. I mean,
Speaker 4: it took decades before it became common for you to
Speaker 4: be able to use a credit card, you know, even
Speaker 4: like a fast food restaurant or something like that. So
Speaker 4: I think it just you got have to have realistic expectations.
Speaker 4: But I think five years from now, people will be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: of course it was obvious all the time. Once they
Speaker 4: adopted it would be, you know, be able to use everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think as the bill Gates quote that people overestimate
Speaker 1: what they can do in a year and underestimate what
Speaker 1: can come down in a decade. Right, And so I
Speaker 1: say that all the time with bitcoin, you you just
Speaker 1: expect way too much too soon. And especially to the
Speaker 1: point you made earlier about money, money is a whole
Speaker 1: different thing. It's one thing to switch over to a
Speaker 1: new social media account. It's a whole different thing to
Speaker 1: switch over your money. So from that perspective, I see
Speaker 1: that now.
Speaker 4: The other thing I Joan Henter real quick was the
Speaker 4: role El Salvador has played in and pushing the tools
Speaker 4: and the resources forward, because when El Salvador made this adoption,
Speaker 4: there wasn't that many great wallets out there, or point
Speaker 4: of sale or even the way to spend bitcoin really
Speaker 4: didn't work that well. And so when El Salvador moved
Speaker 4: in that direction, all these companies came in and they
Speaker 4: continue to develop better products, and it makes it much
Speaker 4: more easy to use bitcoin, where now if I spend
Speaker 4: bitcoin a lot of these places, it happens faster than
Speaker 4: if I try to use my credit card, where initially,
Speaker 4: you know, they were still doing things on chain, so
Speaker 4: you'd be sitting there in the supermarket, wait confirmation and hoping.
Speaker 3: It made it in the next place.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we're seeing that, you know, Salvador be kind
Speaker 4: of a laboratory I think for the world to get
Speaker 4: bitcoin to the usability that it's going to need to
Speaker 4: jump and become the ubiguous currency that you.
Speaker 3: Used around the world.
Speaker 1: Now again, so here we are four years later, and
Speaker 1: there was two sparks, right, So we had buke Ley
Speaker 1: and then we had Bitcoin, and maybe they helped each other, right,
Speaker 1: the synergy between that. It's gone from the most dangerous
Speaker 1: country in the world, I guess now to the safest
Speaker 1: country in the world, which.
Speaker 3: Is safest in the in the America's in.
Speaker 1: The Americas, okay, so not like Luxembourg, but in the
Speaker 1: America's okay. So that's a big shift. Boukayley has done
Speaker 1: a lot. I've seen him announcing, like really trying to
Speaker 1: recruit people, like giving passports out to philosophers and thought leaders,
Speaker 1: things like that. I've heard a lot of investment capitals
Speaker 1: flowing in.
Speaker 2: Businesses are flowing in.
Speaker 1: I think around Alzonte, around Bitcoin Beach, the real estate
Speaker 1: has gone crazy through the roof. How much have you
Speaker 1: really seen that? I mean, is that really noticeable. Is
Speaker 1: that a big deal or is it just still that
Speaker 1: hope in the air.
Speaker 3: No, it's definitely a big deal.
Speaker 4: I mean the you know, ten years ago, the unemployment
Speaker 4: was off the charts.
Speaker 3: It was very hard for people to find work.
Speaker 4: Now, the biggest complaint I hear from people is like,
Speaker 4: you can't find any construction workers.
Speaker 3: We can't find any restaurant workers. Like people are.
Speaker 4: Moving their way up the food chain the jobs that
Speaker 4: pay more, which those are great problems to have. And
Speaker 4: so you see construction booming everywhere. I mean, it's it
Speaker 4: seems like every other lot is a construction site now,
Speaker 4: and you're.
Speaker 2: Just concentrated in that area.
Speaker 4: Though, No, not just you know Alezante, of course there's
Speaker 4: a ton of stuff happening there, and the prices have
Speaker 4: gone gone off the charts, but even the rest of
Speaker 4: you know, that pushes people out as it becomes too
Speaker 4: expensive there, people move, you know, up the coast or
Speaker 4: down the coast. The capital city is booming now. You
Speaker 4: see all these countries or these companies kind of pouring in.
Speaker 4: They're looking for they're driving the price of talent up
Speaker 4: because there's there's limited talent in the country, and so
Speaker 4: the education system now is needing to catch up and
Speaker 4: to produce the type of workers that all these companies
Speaker 4: are looking for, and so.
Speaker 3: It's it can be a little.
Speaker 4: It can be a little haphazard at times, like you know,
Speaker 4: companies come in and they're like, oh, we can't find.
Speaker 3: The workers we need.
Speaker 4: And then but these things tend to solve themselves. Then
Speaker 4: the schools step in and start producing the workers that
Speaker 4: they need. And so it's it's a messy process, but
Speaker 4: you see the country just just continuing to build up.
Speaker 2: It's such a small country.
Speaker 1: It's a tiny country, so it's kind of like a
Speaker 1: very thinly traded stock. A thinly traded stock moves really fast,
Speaker 1: even like bitcoin when it was small, and so so
Speaker 1: Il Salvador was a very small country, and so you
Speaker 1: can really swing the balance of employment or things like
Speaker 1: that pretty quickly. Now, Mike, one thing, one thing that
Speaker 1: I think can talk about quite often is that I
Speaker 1: feel like this worldview and unfortunately I see it in
Speaker 1: the bitcoin community and I see it across the world overall.
Speaker 1: In the United States, I should say that there's not
Speaker 1: really this spirit of like helping other people. And when
Speaker 1: I say that, not like holding a door open for people,
Speaker 1: but like donating money or time to go help other people,
Speaker 1: and I feel that that sets people's worldview. So, for example,
Speaker 1: I was on a plane with somebody not that long ago,
Speaker 1: and you know, we're having this debate. We're sitting next
Speaker 1: to each other, and and he's telling me that, you know,
Speaker 1: he thinks that the government should continue to tax people
Speaker 1: so they continue to fund all these programs. And I'm saying,
Speaker 1: we don't need the government to take care of those people.
Speaker 1: We take people take care of these people. And he
Speaker 1: didn't see that. And then I just asked them this question,
Speaker 1: and there's kind of personal question. I said, you don't
Speaker 1: have to answer this question, but I'm just curious how
Speaker 1: much of your money. We're in first class, so he's
Speaker 1: a good he's doing good business. How much of your
Speaker 1: money do you donate to good causes or people? Said,
Speaker 1: you don't have to tell me that, but he's like none.
Speaker 1: I was like, do you think that could change your worldview?
Speaker 2: Right? Like?
Speaker 1: And so like, we're out there helping you. You were
Speaker 1: down there helping even before bitcoin. I'm curious your opinion
Speaker 1: on that and people's worldview and being reflective of their actions.
Speaker 4: No, I think, and you see this not to make
Speaker 4: it too political, but you do see it a lot
Speaker 4: of times it is politically aligned.
Speaker 3: Like people that.
Speaker 4: Are more on the left, they view that as the
Speaker 4: government should be taking care of people, and there's been
Speaker 4: lots of studies they tend to give much less to
Speaker 4: charity and to be less generous and to do less
Speaker 4: stuff on their own, where people that are tend to
Speaker 4: be more on the right or more libertarian view it
Speaker 4: as like, hey, this is my responsibility, not the governments,
Speaker 4: and I'm going to do it much more efficiently, and
Speaker 4: so I'm going to give of my own time and
Speaker 4: my own money.
Speaker 3: And so I think that for a.
Speaker 4: Lot of people, it's they feel like they can kind
Speaker 4: of check that box just by voting for somebody that
Speaker 4: says they want to give money to the poor, Like
Speaker 4: they can get it off their their conscience, like, Okay,
Speaker 4: I've done my deed by voting for the person that's
Speaker 4: going to increase taxes.
Speaker 3: Of course, they hope it's not on them. Then they're
Speaker 3: going to those billionaires and give them. They're going to
Speaker 3: find ways to get around it.
Speaker 4: And so even even the billionaires that you hear that
Speaker 4: like oh, no, we should raise taxes. They're still employing
Speaker 4: an army of people to make sure they're not subjected
Speaker 4: to those increases in taxes, and so I think that, yeah,
Speaker 4: I think that that's something that's really important and I
Speaker 4: think that's something we need to speak openly about that, like, hey,
Speaker 4: if you really care for somebody, you should be the
Speaker 4: one that's out there doing it, making those sacrifices. And
Speaker 4: I mean even even when it comes to immigration thing,
Speaker 4: you see people that are that are talking about like, hey,
Speaker 4: we need to help the immigrants we need It's like, well,
Speaker 4: how many people do you have in your home? What
Speaker 4: have you done personally? How are you becoming involved? The
Speaker 4: government should do that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but what about you know, a nonprofit that
Speaker 1: I was working with, our slogan was happy people help others.
Speaker 1: And so I think any parent recognizes that some really
Speaker 1: the greatest joy you can have is by giving other
Speaker 1: people joy.
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 1: Maybe there's sort of the chicken or the egg most
Speaker 1: in a sense where like maybe if they went helped
Speaker 1: to the people, then they would get the joy and realize, wow,
Speaker 1: that was actually better. And when you rely on the state,
Speaker 1: you short circuit that whole thing. Right, because like, if
Speaker 1: I help you, I feel really good about that, but
Speaker 1: you also feel really good, like, wow, this guy helped me.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. So now both of us get the benefit
Speaker 1: of that. But if the government steals my money from me,
Speaker 1: I'm angry and they give it to you, and now
Speaker 1: you feel entitled.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: And so then you take this experience that both people
Speaker 1: could benefit from and now both people are angry about
Speaker 1: one percent.
Speaker 4: I mean, you pit the nail on the head. I mean,
Speaker 4: that is exactly the problem that we face now. And
Speaker 4: you take that connection, that human connection away, where when
Speaker 4: people are receiving money from the government, like I said,
Speaker 4: they become entitled and they become embittered, like wait, I
Speaker 4: shouldn't be getting more, this isn't fair. But when they
Speaker 4: see that connection that somebody's actually sacrificing their hard work
Speaker 4: to help them, it becomes more real and they see
Speaker 4: that they have to have a personal responsibility to respond
Speaker 4: to that and to try to improve themselves.
Speaker 3: And so that's what I really think that we need
Speaker 3: to get back to.
Speaker 4: And that's why I'm so hopeful about the people in
Speaker 4: the bitcoin space. As their resources increase, that they can
Speaker 4: have a broader impact than go out. And I think
Speaker 4: we need to challenge people because the one issue I
Speaker 4: see and I see with a lot of bitcoiners, and
Speaker 4: they have this plan that down the road in twenty years,
Speaker 4: when their bitcoin's worth, you know, twenty million dollars a
Speaker 4: coin or something, then they're going to do something. It's like, no,
Speaker 4: you're missing all this time in between. Think of all
Speaker 4: the lives that you can impact. You can't go back
Speaker 4: in time and change those people's lives. And so I
Speaker 4: think regardless of the price of bitcoin, we should be
Speaker 4: using our personal resources right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, whatever you have, your time, your effort, your energy, focus,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever it is. I mean, we all have
Speaker 1: something to give, even if it's not money. We've all
Speaker 1: been given gifts, and so we'll just announce it here.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I tried to come down and help the community a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago and it fell through unfortunately, but
Speaker 1: I am planning a trip to go down there and
Speaker 1: do some serving opportunities just directly into the community. We'll
Speaker 1: bring a small amount of people with us if you're
Speaker 1: interested in getting down to the community, learning about that,
Speaker 1: learning about what's going on to big going, but more importantly,
Speaker 1: giving back to the community. We'll put a link down
Speaker 1: in the description down below if you want to fill
Speaker 1: out that form. It's going to be a small group.
Speaker 1: We'll be doing trips down there at else Aha, or
Speaker 1: if you want to come hang out with us, let
Speaker 1: me know in there. But you know, again I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: I know you worked, you know, in some stuff in
Speaker 1: Peru and you and I think there's Argentina and you're
Speaker 1: starting to see this pop up all over the place.
Speaker 1: So maybe just kind of wrap this up, but maybe
Speaker 1: just what would your advice be to people who are
Speaker 1: inspired by this and would like to go affect change.
Speaker 4: So you really got to show up and put some
Speaker 4: some boots on the ground and understand. You know a
Speaker 4: lot of people think they, you know, understand the situation,
Speaker 4: but you've got to really be there and see it
Speaker 4: and really feel it, and then then you'll understand how
Speaker 4: you can best use your resources, whether though or financial resources,
Speaker 4: or skills you.
Speaker 3: Have, or relationships. A lot of time just being able
Speaker 3: to connect people.
Speaker 4: And so that's why I always tell people like, come
Speaker 4: down to El Salvador, see what's happening there, Judge for yourself,
Speaker 4: and see what part you can play.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and where can they follow along Bitcoin Beach on Twitter.
Speaker 1: Where can they see what's going on and kind of
Speaker 1: check that out.
Speaker 4: Yeah, follow us on bitcoin Beach on Twitter. We also
Speaker 4: have a podcast YouTube Live from Bitcoin Beach we do,
Speaker 4: you know, we work in interviewing different bitcoiners that are
Speaker 4: coming through El Salvador, but also once a week we
Speaker 4: do a Twitter spaces that we post there that kind
Speaker 4: of focuses and highlights one of these circular bitcoin economies
Speaker 4: that we're working with around the world. So this, you know,
Speaker 4: whether it's Bitcoin Akasi in South Africa or last week
Speaker 4: we were talking with the folks and Uganda that are
Speaker 4: working with an orphanage there and start starting a circular
Speaker 4: bitcoin economy there. We try to highlight these different things,
Speaker 4: so that's another way people can become connected with projects
Speaker 4: they can become involved.
Speaker 2: With great all right, well that was signed off.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Mike, Thanks Mark,