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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, we want to announce that we have our

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Speaker 1: final three shows of the year on the books August

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Speaker 1: twelfth in Orlando, Florida, September sixth in Nashville, Tennessee, and

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Speaker 1: winding it up right here in Atlanta September ninth.

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Speaker 2: They're going to be great, just great, great, great great.

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Speaker 2: So if you want to come see the Stuff you

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Speaker 2: Should Know greatness, the last of it for the year,

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Speaker 2: you can by going to Stuff you Should Know dot

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Speaker 2: com and checking out our tour page or going to

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Speaker 2: link tree slash sysk. Either way you'll get links to

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Speaker 2: tickets and all the info you need. We'll see you

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Speaker 2: starting in August.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I'm welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck.

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Speaker 2: Jerry's here too, and that makes this Stuff you Should Know.

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Speaker 4: Let's see that's right.

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Speaker 1: This is about James Beard, the Human and the James

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Speaker 1: Beard Foundation and awards. Big thanks to Dave Brus who

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Speaker 1: helped us put this together. And I also got a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff from a writer, a bunch of interviews

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Speaker 1: in magazine articles on this guy, John Birdsall, who wrote

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Speaker 1: a book called The Man Who ate too much about

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Speaker 1: James Beard, about James Beard and James Beard through the

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Speaker 1: lens of sort of what it was like to be

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Speaker 1: a closeted gay man, and then you know, starting in

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the things about the Internet is is

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Speaker 2: when something comes along that's kind of definitive, most of

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Speaker 2: the stuff that turns up on a search engine is

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Speaker 2: interpretation of that. Yeah, it's a bunch of different reviews

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Speaker 2: of in this case of a book or think pieces,

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Speaker 2: you know, based on the book whatever. But if you

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Speaker 2: dig hard enough, you can find like pre you know,

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Speaker 2: definitive articles as well. And this is a case of that.

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Speaker 2: And it's really interesting to see things that were written

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Speaker 2: about James Beard in nineteen eighty ninety seven or yeh,

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Speaker 2: twenty ten or whatever, anytime before twenty twenty when John

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Speaker 2: Birdsall's book came out, and it's just totally different. It's

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Speaker 2: so much more surface level and accepting him as who

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Speaker 2: he was basically or taking on face that he was

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Speaker 2: who he seemed to be. And then now after that,

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Speaker 2: it's like there's meditations on you know, whether he actually

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Speaker 2: hated being gay, like a friend said he did or

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Speaker 2: did he hate being gay in the mid twentieth century. Like,

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Speaker 2: it's just a completely different approach to James Beard. And

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Speaker 2: certainly it's a lot more robust and well rounded and thoughtful.

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Speaker 2: But in some ways it's like, man, it's too bad

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Speaker 2: we can't go back to the happier interpretation of James Beard.

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Speaker 2: But that's just not how it goes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So who we're talking about is, like you said,

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Speaker 1: James Beard. If you are into food, if you're into restaurants,

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Speaker 1: if you are into cooking shows and reading cookbooks and

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Speaker 1: foodie culture, then James Beard is a very big name.

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Speaker 1: Because if you get a James Beard Award for your

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Speaker 1: podcast or your restaurant critic column or your cookbook or

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Speaker 1: most importantly for your restaurant, yeah, or as a chef,

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Speaker 1: then that means big. That means fame and fortune and

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Speaker 1: all the things that go with winning a major award,

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Speaker 1: as if it were a Tony or an Oscar or

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Speaker 1: a Emmy or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because that is generally how it's viewed as the

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Speaker 2: Oscars of.

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Speaker 1: Food until the Oscar said stop saying that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah they did. Apparently. The James Beard Awards were broadcast

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Speaker 2: of Food Network in the nineties and they call it

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Speaker 2: the culinary Oscars, right, and the Oscars. Yeah, they were like, please,

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Speaker 2: please don't do that anymore. We're going to see you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll get into his early history. But he

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Speaker 1: is or was a chef and a cookbook right, and

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Speaker 1: a business owner. He was probably the first American celebrity

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Speaker 1: chef and really formed the mold for all to follow

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Speaker 1: of chef as brand. He had an encyclopedic knowledge of food.

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Speaker 1: I saw some cool interviews with different like legendary chefs

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Speaker 1: that were like, he knew more about every type of

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Speaker 1: food you could imagine and every ingredient on planet Earth

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Speaker 1: than anyone that I've ever met. And this is like

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Speaker 1: Alice Waters and Jacques Papin and like the legendary chefs

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Speaker 1: of the world.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's very highly regarded, highly thought of. And what's

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Speaker 2: amazing is he was self taught. Basically, he had a

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Speaker 2: lot of influences along the way, but he never went

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Speaker 2: to any he never had any formal training in cooking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yet he started what we now call farm to

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Speaker 1: table cuisine and New American cuisine because from the very

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Speaker 1: beginning he was like, it's just got to taste good.

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Speaker 1: It's simple ingredients put together in a non fussy way

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Speaker 1: is the way it's best to cook and eat. And

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Speaker 1: now that's people are all about that. But that's sort

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Speaker 1: of a more recent sort of resurgence of that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean if you took him now or

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Speaker 2: back then and just fast forwarded him to now, the

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Speaker 2: only two differences would be he'd be allowed to be

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Speaker 2: out as Carrie and he would have to get both

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Speaker 2: of his sleeves fully tatted. Right, That's it, because that's like,

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Speaker 2: it's we just finally kind of caught up to his vibe,

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Speaker 2: totally established it.

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Speaker 1: All right, So should we go back to the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Let's all right, let's go back to Portland, Oregon then

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Speaker 1: in nineteen oh three. I can't imagine what Portland could

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Speaker 1: have possibly been like growing up as a kid in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen tens and teens, but.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of horses and rugged people probably so.

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Speaker 4: In his own memoir, he.

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Speaker 1: Semi accurately just described his life as very idyllic, in

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Speaker 1: the sense that from the very beginning he grew up

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Speaker 1: eating great food. For a couple of reasons, one or

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Speaker 1: for three reasons. Early one is because where he lived

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Speaker 1: in Oregon near the coast. They had great fresh seafood

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Speaker 1: everywhere and forest everywhere, so these great wild berries and vegetables,

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Speaker 1: organic stuff, because that's just everything was basically organic, pre

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Speaker 1: mass farming and pesticide. And the other two reasons are

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Speaker 1: that his mom, who was an english woman named Elizabeth Beard,

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Speaker 1: was very much into good food and like making sure

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Speaker 1: her son ate like really great stuff and the finest things.

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Speaker 1: Because they had some money in there. He was pretty spoiled. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think so. And then the other was his who

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Speaker 1: ended up being kind of a godfather because apparently his

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Speaker 1: dad wasn't a very good guy, which was a Cantonese

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Speaker 1: immigrant chef who was the chef of the house name

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Speaker 1: jew Lette, who they were very very close and from

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Speaker 1: a very early age, James Beard was exposed to Chinese

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Speaker 1: and Asian cooking, Cantonese cooking in particular. I believe that

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Speaker 1: jew Lette was also a master breadmaker, and Portland has

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Speaker 1: one of the oldest China towns in the US. So

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Speaker 1: as a young kid, he was being exposed to all

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Speaker 1: kinds of great cuisines thanks to the I think live

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Speaker 1: in chef.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you put those two together you get

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Speaker 2: a really good approximation of what he did. He took

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Speaker 2: He created American cuisine at a time like when he

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Speaker 2: really kind of became a public figure. It was at

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Speaker 2: the exact same time that we were learning how to

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Speaker 2: make frozen foods and building TV trays, and there's a

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Speaker 2: whole g whiz thing to like aluminum foil and stuff

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Speaker 2: like that. So he pushed against that and said, no,

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Speaker 2: we want fresh stuff, we want seasonal stuff. You don't

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Speaker 2: want stuff that was picked six months ago and frozen

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Speaker 2: ever since. And a lot of America was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we dude, this is amazing. This is like the space

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Speaker 2: age in the future.

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Speaker 4: Sit down.

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Speaker 2: And then the other the Giulette influence was to take

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Speaker 2: other cultures dishes and americanize them in certain ways, just

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Speaker 2: swapping out ingredients, changing the name, and just making it

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Speaker 2: that much more approachable. But it's still something that you know,

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Speaker 2: it's still an exotic dish, but it's an exotic dish

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Speaker 2: that he's explaining the average American cook who's interested can

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Speaker 2: go do.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, his dad was not a great dude,

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Speaker 1: wasn't around that much. His mom, who I mentioned, was

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Speaker 1: born in England was she ran the family. They had

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Speaker 1: a boarding house called the Gladstone in Portland, and she

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Speaker 1: ran that and apparently was a perfectionist and very domineering.

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Speaker 1: So while she was, you know, orchestrating all these gourmet

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Speaker 1: meals for her young son, I get the idea that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the easiest sort of home life with her

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Speaker 1: perfectionism and diamondeiring qualities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you didn't get that from his memoir, which

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Speaker 2: is another good kind of sketch of what he was like.

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Speaker 2: He presented himself totally differently as a public figure then,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to say totally differently, but much differently,

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Speaker 2: especially as he became more and more of a public

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Speaker 2: figure right than who he was in real life. He

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Speaker 2: was very good at embellishing anecdotes or you know, he

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Speaker 2: realized the value of the backstory to a recipe would

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Speaker 2: make people want to make it more and then they

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Speaker 2: could share that when they cooked it for their friends.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He went to Read College there in Portland and ended

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Speaker 1: up being asked to leave Read College basically expelled his

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Speaker 1: freshman year in nineteen twenty one, because he had a

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Speaker 1: couple of affairs with other students and one with a

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Speaker 1: professor where apparently some of his roommates actually witnessed this,

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Speaker 1: like walked in on them, and they very quietly said,

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Speaker 1: you've got to get out of here. And I don't

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Speaker 1: know if being gay was illegal in Oregon at the time,

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Speaker 1: but it was illegal in some states, and it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: surprise me if Orgon was one of them.

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Speaker 4: But they said, you got to get out of here.

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Speaker 1: And the yearbook hadn't even been published yet, and they

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Speaker 1: erased every mention of him in their yearbook before it published.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which, depending on who you ask, either like scarred

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Speaker 2: him for life when he secretly held it as a

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Speaker 2: mark of shame, and maybe that was one of the

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Speaker 2: reasons why he hated being gay, or he just you know,

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Speaker 2: rolled with it and moved on. I'm not quite sure

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Speaker 2: which is correct, but either way, he still had a

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Speaker 2: deep and abiding love for Reid College and left most

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Speaker 2: of his estate to Read College after he died.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I wonder why that happened, because I know they eventually

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Speaker 1: came around once he got famous and were like, oh,

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Speaker 1: he's a very famous reading and they gave him an

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Speaker 1: honorary degree. Many years later, in nineteen seventy six. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it still surprises me that he just

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Speaker 1: for being there one year that he I don't know,

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Speaker 1: left in that kind of endowment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not even one year. He didn't even make it

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Speaker 2: through his freshman year. Yeah, yeah, No, it's surprising because

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Speaker 2: he also could have been like, oh you want me

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Speaker 2: to be a ready, now, shove it, but he didn't.

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Speaker 2: He very he was very pleased to have been given

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Speaker 2: an honorary degree. So after college, his little Stanton College,

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Speaker 2: he's like, you know what, I want to be an actor,

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Speaker 2: maybe an opera singer. My family's pretty wealthy, so I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to go to Europe, joining a traveling theater

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Speaker 2: company and study my craft in Europe. There he learned,

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Speaker 2: I think the hard way that he had a mediocre talent.

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Speaker 2: I saw it described, But in like Paris and London

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Speaker 2: and some of the great European capitals he found like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, there's like these gay communities are just

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Speaker 2: barely on the downlow, Like there, you know, they have

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Speaker 2: great parties and they have their own bars and places

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Speaker 2: to go, like it's totally unlike America. So in that sense,

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Speaker 2: I think he learned to appreciate being gay, or at

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Speaker 2: least interacting with the gay community for the first time

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Speaker 2: there in Europe, which would have been a great education

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Speaker 2: for him.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And he spent the next I don't know, fifteen or

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Speaker 1: so years moving around a lot, still trying to work

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Speaker 1: in theater and doing also getting involved in cooking some

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Speaker 1: and I think twenty four he moved back to Portland,

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Speaker 1: worked as a radio announcer and again joined another theater troupe.

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Speaker 1: Twenty seven moved to la for a little while and

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Speaker 1: actually got a couple of bit parts in Cecil.

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Speaker 4: B de Mille movies.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, very small part, so you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: just like you were saying, he apparently he could sing

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Speaker 1: and act.

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Speaker 4: It just was, you know, he was right there in

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Speaker 4: the middle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it wasn't like, oh like he had no

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Speaker 1: talent whatsoever, and he was just a rich kid. In

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Speaker 1: twenty eight he went back to Portland, more local theater,

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Speaker 1: and then started spending a lot of time in Seattle,

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Speaker 1: did a semester at Carnegie Tech and Pittsburgh where he

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Speaker 1: studied like scenic design and costume design and stuff. So

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Speaker 1: he was really still trying to do the theater thing,

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Speaker 1: and that's what he was still trying to do when

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Speaker 1: he moved to New York in nineteen thirty seven.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and he.

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Speaker 2: Didn't aspire to be a chef. He basically did it

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Speaker 2: to make ends meet. That's when he started. When he

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Speaker 2: was in New York, he fell in with the gay

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Speaker 2: community there, which was super underground apparently at the time

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Speaker 2: in nineteen nineteen thirties. Even in New York, you couldn't

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Speaker 2: even hint that you were gay, like you just did not,

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Speaker 2: at least not in public. So you couldn't go out

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Speaker 2: to bars because bars didn't want you. They could lose

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Speaker 2: their license if they were caught with a gay person

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Speaker 2: in their on the premises. So what the gay community

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Speaker 2: did in New York was throw private parties at people's houses.

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Speaker 2: And what he did was he started hiring himself out

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Speaker 2: to cook for these parties. And he got particularly good

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Speaker 2: at creating cocktail party food, finger foods, cannapis or dervs,

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, so much so that he ended

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Speaker 2: up making writing his first cookbook on that, which we'll

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Speaker 2: talk about in a second.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this all this New York stuff, this is

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Speaker 1: post prohibition, like there were gay bars in New York

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Speaker 1: pre prohibition, which I didn't even realize. No, I didn't either,

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Speaker 1: but they basically use prohibition once the things started post prohibition,

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Speaker 1: once things finally started opening up again, to say, okay,

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Speaker 1: but here's the deal, like no more gay bars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like history. It's crazy. It's just a

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Speaker 2: back and forth of progressive and conservative, progressive and conservative

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Speaker 2: like a seesaw. It's interesting because you tend to think

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Speaker 2: of everything as kind of moving forward. It would be progressiveness.

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Speaker 2: But it doesn't always, No, it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about those cocktail parties in New York where

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Speaker 1: he was making food. He ended up meeting a very

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Speaker 1: key person in his life named James Cullum, who was

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Speaker 1: a wealthy gay socialite, and he said, hey, why don't

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Speaker 1: you move in with me. I got a spare room

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Speaker 1: and you can kind of be my I thow these

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Speaker 1: huge parties and you're great at this, and you can

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Speaker 1: kind of be my live in cater chef essentially, And it.

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Speaker 4: Was I saw.

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Speaker 1: It was like a completely platonic thing. But he moved in.

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Speaker 4: Through culumn.

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Speaker 1: He was able to work all these other parties, meet

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Speaker 1: all the sort of well healed gay New Yorkers with money,

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Speaker 1: and like you said, he made quite a name for himself.

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Speaker 1: And he was doing this, like you said, with these

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Speaker 1: sort of simple or dervs and finger foods, that he

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Speaker 1: would make his own. One thing that he's still very

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Speaker 1: famous for was his onion sandwich.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I looked up this thing. I gotta make one now.

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Speaker 2: Really I was not inspired to, Oh.

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Speaker 1: Man, I think they looked delicious. I saw Jacqupapine make one.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I had some with sure. But you take some

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Speaker 1: bryoshe and you cut, like use a biscuit cutter or

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Speaker 1: something to cut it into a circle so it doesn't

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Speaker 1: have any crust. You cut two of these. You make

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Speaker 1: up some homemade mayo ideally or dukes of pure in

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Speaker 1: a pinch, and then you spread mayo in each side.

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Speaker 1: You slice very thinly. You cut an onion in half,

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Speaker 1: and then very thinly slice you know, a half moon

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Speaker 1: of onion and a half moon of onion, and put

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Speaker 1: those together so it is, you know, covering the whole sandwich.

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Speaker 1: And then you spread mayo along the outer rim of

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Speaker 1: this sandwich. Once you put it together, and then roll

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Speaker 1: that in either chopped parsley or some combination of chopped

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Speaker 1: herbs that you like, and it just it looked really

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Speaker 1: good and it looks very simple, and everyone goes nuts

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Speaker 1: on it. So I've got to try it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, let me know how it is, and if

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Speaker 2: it is particularly good, I'll try it for sure. And

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Speaker 2: it's not like I'm like that's gross. I just I'm like,

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Speaker 2: this is missing something that would make me want to

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Speaker 2: eat it, like where's the deli meat?

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Speaker 1: He apparently wealthy, and this is something birds All wrote

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Speaker 1: about that, like wealthy straight parties at the time, they

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Speaker 1: had like really fancy stuff like you know, caviare and truffles,

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Speaker 1: but the food itself, apparently, and the finger foods and

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Speaker 1: sandwiches are all kind of boring, and apparently this stuff

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Speaker 1: was just way better and more creative.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so again, he made his name as a catering chef.

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Speaker 2: He founded a company called or derv Inc with a

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Speaker 2: brother and sister, Bill and Irma Roade, and at the

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Speaker 2: same time he learned a lot from these people. He

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Speaker 2: also learned a lot from a woman named Jean Wilson

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Speaker 2: who was a socialite in New York, and all three

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Speaker 2: of them kind of took him under their wing, taught

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Speaker 2: him things like the value of like going out and

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Speaker 2: finding good ingredients at stores in New York, like how

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Speaker 2: to appreciate wine or at least pretend like you understand

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Speaker 2: how to appreciate wine. From Bill Road. He learned the

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Speaker 2: value of adding a story, a backstory to a dish.

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Speaker 2: How important that was. And it was another it was

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Speaker 2: if his education came in like peaks and valleys. This

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Speaker 2: was another big peak in his culinary education, you could say.

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Speaker 2: And he went on in I think nineteen forty, just

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Speaker 2: a few years after he started cooking. I think, right,

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Speaker 2: didn't you say it was thirty seven that he really started.

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Speaker 1: I mean he moved to New York in thirty seven,

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Speaker 1: and I think kind of ditched everything else in like

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Speaker 1: thirty eight and thirty nine.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So in three years he went from teaching himself

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Speaker 2: how to cook basically hanging out with New York society

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Speaker 2: to writing his first cookbook in nineteen forty, which he

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Speaker 2: claimed over written in six weeks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, shortly thereafter. And I guess we'll take a break

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Speaker 1: after this. But he was drafted into the army. I

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Speaker 1: saw he enlisted and that he was drafted. So I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure which is true. But I was all drafted

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Speaker 1: more often than enlisted, and UH that ended his catering

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Speaker 1: business for a couple of reasons. I think even before

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Speaker 1: he was drafted, the food rationing basically ended that catering business.

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Speaker 1: But he was drafted in forty two UH into a

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Speaker 1: cryptography school and served in the US Seaman Service in

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Speaker 1: places like Brazil and Puerto Rico and Panama and France.

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Speaker 1: So he's in a way still kind of continuing his

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Speaker 1: food education by living in these places with awesome food.

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Speaker 2: Man, that's super interesting.

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Speaker 4: Should we take that break, Yeah, let's all right. We'll

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Speaker 4: be right back with Moron James.

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Speaker 3: Bear Stoffy, Josh, I want to learn about a terris

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Speaker 3: ort and college Taradactyl, how to take a berger bout

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Speaker 3: fractalk Is Khan, that's a little hunt, the Lizzie Boarders,

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Speaker 3: plane everything, and Josi.

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Speaker 4: Sport up. Jerry.

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Speaker 2: All right, So I mentioned Gene Wilson, Bill and Irma Road.

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Speaker 2: They had a huge impact on his culinary education. I

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Speaker 2: should say, nothing formal again, like that was just hanging

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Speaker 2: out with the right people who kind of provided this

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Speaker 2: and that and sometimes recipes. He co owned the catering

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Speaker 2: business with them, but the first chance he got to

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Speaker 2: cut them out credit wise, he took in his nineteen

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Speaker 2: forty cookbook can or dirves and Cannipates. There's no mention

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Speaker 2: of them. There's no mention of any of the order

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Speaker 2: of ink, or of their ownership and order of ink,

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Speaker 2: I should say. And he kind of, at least in retrospect,

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Speaker 2: became a little bit famous for, at the very least

380
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Speaker 2: put it as nicely as possible, not giving credit where

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Speaker 2: credit is due, at worst, using people and then burning

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Speaker 2: the bridge in an effort to climb ever upward.

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Speaker 1: I saw that onion sandwich recipe might have even been

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Speaker 1: from the roads. Yeah, I'm not sure about that one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent, but that could be an example.

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Speaker 4: He wrote.

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Speaker 1: He was very prolific, wrote a lot of books. From

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty to nineteen eighty three. He had twenty cookbooks,

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Speaker 1: including nineteen fifty nine sort of his seminal work, the

390
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Speaker 1: James Beard Cookbook that had it was kind of like

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Speaker 1: a kitchen bible, which apparently he wasn't a big fan

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Speaker 1: of those kinds of books, and this was not even

393
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Speaker 1: close to his favorite of his own, but it was

394
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Speaker 1: the best selling and had everything in there from how

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Speaker 1: to make like a French Castle, aid to how to

396
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Speaker 1: Boil Water, and was I think the first cookbook to

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Speaker 1: feature the chef on the cover. It was just unheard

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Speaker 1: of to do at the time. It was just you know,

399
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Speaker 1: the joy of cooking or whatever, you just have text

400
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: and he was the first person to put his mug

401
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Speaker 1: on there. And again that's just sort of laid the

402
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,879
Speaker 1: groundwork for chef as brand. He was this really big

403
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 1: guy who was six ' three weighed over three hundred pounds.

404
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 1: He eventually was bald and kind of looked like an

405
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Speaker 1: Uncle Fester type, but apparently he just had no self

406
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Speaker 1: consciousness about the way he looked and a bigger person

407
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Speaker 1: like eating a lot, because he ate a ton and

408
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Speaker 1: consistently talked about how much he'd loved to eat a

409
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Speaker 1: lot of food.

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Speaker 2: So much so that he had one of the first

411
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Speaker 2: cooking shows, maybe the first televised cooking show in America

412
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Speaker 2: in nineteen forty six. It was titled I Love to Eat.

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Speaker 4: That was his catchphrase.

414
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Speaker 2: Yeah, he would say that at the either the end

415
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Speaker 2: of the beginning of everyone. It only ran for a year,

416
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Speaker 2: and from what I could tell, that was his only

417
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Speaker 2: TV show. He made some appearances on other shows like

418
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Speaker 2: The Mike Douglas Show and other stuff like that, but

419
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Speaker 2: that was his TV show. That was his one TV show. Instead,

420
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Speaker 2: he ended up making his his name more with like

421
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Speaker 2: cookbooks and a cooking school and all of that. But

422
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 2: on that show, apparently you can see the beginnings of

423
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Speaker 2: that chef brand of his, where you know, he had

424
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Speaker 2: a big appetite but only for delicious food, right, so

425
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Speaker 2: he had no problem with eating and eating and eating,

426
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Speaker 2: but it had to.

427
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Speaker 4: Be good food.

428
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Speaker 2: It wasn't going to waste that on any junk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I looked for clips of

430
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Speaker 1: this show. It's really I found a couple of short ones.

431
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Speaker 1: It's really kind of hard to find stuff because he

432
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Speaker 1: just didn't preserve you know, we've talked about it before

433
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Speaker 1: media like they do now. But I did read in

434
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Speaker 1: one of the birds All interviews where he was saying

435
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Speaker 1: that despite being in the closet, he would drop he said,

436
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 1: gay men at the time, he said they would drop

437
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: called what they called hat pins. So just little references

438
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,880
Speaker 1: or a little the way they said something to kind

439
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 1: of as code of like hey I'm gay, like you

440
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: see what I'm putting down here, and he would do

441
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: that on his TV show, and he would drop little

442
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,959
Speaker 1: hat pins just sort of to the gay community at

443
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: least so they.

444
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 4: Would know that he was gay. But straight people are

445
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 4: just like this guy's just so fun.

446
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 2: Yes, I wonder what community does that now, and we don't.

447
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 4: We're not aware of it now. Who knows.

448
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 2: I'd be very curious if you know. Right in But yeah,

449
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 2: apparently was. He was very much like that until that

450
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 2: first best selling cookbook, that James Beard Cookbook came out.

451
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 2: I read that any semblance of that was totally stripped out,

452
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: and his brand now was a manly man who loved food,

453
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: and I saw was so is so enthralled by food

454
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 2: and the good life that he didn't even like a

455
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 2: relationship with women wasn't even on his radar. He was

456
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: too busy enjoying life kind of thing. Yeah, that was

457
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 2: kind of how he was presented starting in the late fifties.

458
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: There's a Instagram guy I follow. I can't I wouldn't

459
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: be able to pronounce it anyway, because he's like Danish

460
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: or something. I'm not sure what he is, but he

461
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 1: lives in the beautiful mountains of one of those Scandinavian countries.

462
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 4: I don't know.

463
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: But his stuff is great because he cooks sort of

464
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: this like great looking food but in a very tik

465
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: took way. It's like a big he'll cook it on

466
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: a big stone that's been heated by this fire he

467
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: makes himself. But it's like really elevated sort of camping food.

468
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: And he gives stuff to his dog at the end

469
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: of everyone and he never speaks or anything.

470
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 4: It's all silent.

471
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute.

472
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 4: Have you seen this?

473
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: But is he like a kind of like a wild

474
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 2: man and he lives in a tent.

475
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 4: He is a wild man in a tent.

476
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 2: Yes, I have seen it. And he like he'll point

477
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 2: to stuff.

478
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, because he may not speak English.

479
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: But I was just thinking, like nothing would make me

480
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: happier than if at the end of one of these

481
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: like some guy just walks in from the mountains and

482
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,239
Speaker 1: they just start making out of the end.

483
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 4: Sure, I'd be like, all right, there you go, in,

484
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 4: there you go, James Beard, do it.

485
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: So we talked about the fact that he he would present,

486
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, sort of fancy foods in a simpler way

487
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: for Americans that may have been intimidated by like you know,

488
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: the classic French cooking and stuff like that. And one

489
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: good example is in his cookbook from nineteen forty nine,

490
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: the Fireside Cookbook, when he basically made what is an

491
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: omelet peissant, which is a French for a peasant omelet,

492
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: but he called it a country omelet, and all he

493
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: did was a country All he did instead of putting

494
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: salted pork belly in this omelet that also has potatoes,

495
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: onions and parsley, was put in smoked bacon, and he

496
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: called it a country omelet, and it just seemed completely American.

497
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what he would do. Like he would, I

498
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: guess in the parlance of today, he would appropriate other

499
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: cultures food and alter it just enough to make it Americanized.

500
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 2: He wasn't doing it from what I could tell, because

501
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: he was unimaginative, because he couldn't come up with his

502
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: own stuff. He was from an appreciation of those other

503
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 2: culture's dishes, and he was americanizing it not out of

504
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: a disrespect to that culture originating it, but out of

505
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: making it more accessible to American cooks. And in doing

506
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: that he is credited with basically coming up with American cuisine,

507
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: and it's hilarious. But it's so American that American cuisine

508
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 2: is predicated on other culture's food. And it was a

509
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 2: huge debt to front to French cooking, and large part

510
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 2: it's because people like James Beard and James Beard in

511
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: particular took French food and americanized it and made American

512
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 2: American cuisine in the process.

513
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, Dave makes a very good point, like if you

514
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: think of the nineteen sixties, what might be on in

515
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: a recipe book or a menurobably, because like you said,

516
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: that was sort of when TV dinners were all the

517
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: rage and stuff like that, and it just didn't seem

518
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: like there was a lot of attention being paid.

519
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 4: To real quality like that. But that's all come back

520
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 4: in a big way.

521
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: And if you read some of his recipes from the

522
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, and they say, and he's writing about roasted

523
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: figs and pergudo and sun chokes and savicha and stuff

524
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: like that, Like, I didn't know about any of that

525
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: stuff in the eighties and nineties, even probably, and he

526
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: was writing about the stuff in the nineteen fifties and sixties.

527
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: It started to become a thing in the eighties with

528
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: the yuppies, started to and they can thank James Beard

529
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 2: for that.

530
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 4: But you're just thinking of American snacle.

531
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I'm totally at what is it? Ah?

532
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 4: Is it la cirque? No? No, I shouldn't know.

533
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 2: I don't know. We'll figure it out.

534
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 4: That scene with the business cards.

535
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: It's great. So yes, but that's exactly what I was

536
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: thinking of.

537
00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 4: But you're right, so yes.

538
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: But before that, like there's an example of him in

539
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 2: his TV show in nineteen forty five or six talking

540
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: about this exotic oil that people should go route out,

541
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: like it's hard to find, but it's worth it's worth

542
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: the effort. And it was called olive oil. Yeah, and

543
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: like this was like this is a time when that

544
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: was not You could not find that anywhere, maybe in

545
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: like little Italy, but you did not find it like

546
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 2: mass produced in your grocery store like he used large exactly.

547
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why you find it mass

548
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: produced in your grocery store now is because James Beard

549
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 2: introduced it to America. Like that's the effect that this

550
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,959
Speaker 2: guy had. He's everywhere. His influence is everywhere still today

551
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: and not just still today, Like finally today, his influence

552
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: has really kind of come into full fruition.

553
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, agreed.

554
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: I love talking about food.

555
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 4: And I'm hungry. Should we take that second break?

556
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: Sure, let's go. Let's go get some onion sandwiches.

557
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: All right, well, and we'll talk about the James Beard

558
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: Foundation and his legacy right after this.

559
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 4: Stoff, Josh.

560
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 2: Shop stop.

561
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 3: I want to learn about a Terris Hortan College hoadactyl,

562
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: how to take a perfect movement, all about fractal think

563
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 3: is gone.

564
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 4: That's a little hunt the Lizzie and josif we should

565
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 4: know no word up Jerry.

566
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: Okay, So now we move on. Now that we know

567
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: the man pretty good. Thirty minutes on James Beard, I think.

568
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: So we'll talk about his foundation. In the seventies in

569
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: New York, he bought a townhouse at one sixty seven

570
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: West twelfth Street in Greenwich Village. And now he was

571
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: sort of a little more on the down low. He

572
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: wasn't on TV as much. He wasn't he was still

573
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: writing cookbooks, but he was. He was just a little

574
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: more private. I guess at that point he was free

575
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: in the seventies in New York, especially in Greenwich Village,

576
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: to be a little more out. Although you know, apparently

577
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: he was just sort of a homebody with his longtime

578
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: partner who was a pastry chef, Gino Cofaci, and would

579
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: again throw these great parties, these great holiday meals. In

580
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one he started, and this is a big

581
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: part of his legacy today. He founded with a restaurant

582
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: critic Gaale, Green City Meals on Wheels and to date,

583
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: and this is basically it's not officially Meals on Wheels,

584
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: but just a similar thing that covers New York City.

585
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: They have served since nineteen eighty one fifty million meals

586
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: to people who can't get out of the house in

587
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: New York.

588
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: That's amazing. I was like, wait a minute, was this

589
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: the beginning of meals on wheels? And no, no, well

590
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 2: it's an apparently meals on wheels have been around since

591
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 2: the forties. Yeah, so I'm sure we talked about in

592
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: our Meals on Wheels episode.

593
00:31:58,680 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 4: But still, that's right.

594
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 2: It's definitely worth tipping your hat to for sure. Absolutely

595
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: so the whole thing started the James Beard Foundation in

596
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: an effort to buy back his Greenwich Village townhouse from

597
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: Reid College. Remember he'd left the bulk of his estate

598
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 2: to read. And I get the impression as one of

599
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: his students who became a colleague, Peter Cump, who kind

600
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 2: of took the reins of this and got other people,

601
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: including Julia Child, kind of to champion this cause. And

602
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: it was wildly successful because James Beard died in nineteen

603
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: eighty five and they owned the townhouse by nineteen eighty six,

604
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: so then they were like, okay, what do we do next.

605
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he, by the way, he lived to be

606
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: eighty one, So despite his his size and how much

607
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: kind of rich foods he ate, eighty one's not too bad,

608
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: not bad at all. Heart failure finally got him. But

609
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: in like you said, they got the James Beard House,

610
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: which they renamed officially James Beard House, still there today.

611
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: And I think their first sort of mission was to

612
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: quote provide a center for the culinary arts and to

613
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: continue to foster interest the interest James Beard inspired in

614
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: all aspects of food, it's preparation, presentation, and of course enjoyment.

615
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: And you know, it was sort of a sort of

616
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: a humble start I think for what ended up being

617
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: a very big deal. And part of that was kind

618
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: of kicked off the very next year, in nineteen eighty seven,

619
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: when Vodyangpak.

620
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 4: Who is known it's so fun to listen to he is.

621
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: I love hearing that guy talk. And at the time,

622
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: back then he was known as Walter Pagowski. Still is

623
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: that his name?

624
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 4: Oh god, I believe every joke you tell.

625
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 2: No, I'm killing it.

626
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 4: Oh gosh.

627
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: I would love to hear a interview or just a

628
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: conversation between Wolfgang Puck and Werner Hearts.

629
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally, that would be the best. Bock said, hey,

630
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 4: can I can I host at your house?

631
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: And they said, sure, you can come and cook at

632
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: the James Beard House and host a dinner. And it

633
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 1: was a big hit apparently, so he said, why don't

634
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: we do this like once a month, had these big

635
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: dinners prepared by either big famous chefs or someone who's

636
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: up and coming, and all of a sudden, the James

637
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: Beard House itself starts to get its own reputation.

638
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,919
Speaker 2: Yes, but I'll bet a dinner there's at once really

639
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 2: great and also very trying to hear some of the

640
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 2: people around the table talking about it.

641
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: Oh man, I want to someone has an end invite

642
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: Josh and I and you, me and Emily to come.

643
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, but if I'm sitting there like rolling my eyes.

644
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 2: Don't get mad.

645
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 4: The onion sandwich please.

646
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 2: So this Peter Cump guy, he's like, I'm going to

647
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: memorialize my teacher one way or another. I mentioned Julia

648
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: Child really, I don't know if we said that. She

649
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 2: and James Beer were very good friends. Yeah, and at

650
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 2: a time, probably seventies eighties, they were the two most

651
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 2: well known chefs in America far and away, which is

652
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: remarkable because again, neither one of them were formally trained.

653
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 2: I think they were both self taught. Yeah, so Julia

654
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: Child's on board, but Peter Cump is really kind of

655
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 2: running the show here. And they start handing out awards

656
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: pretty quickly after the Beard House is established and the

657
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: Beard Foundation is established. And at the time they give

658
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 2: the award out for great American chefs, and you could

659
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: expect a certificate, a commemorative chef knife, chef's knife.

660
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 4: Nice, and that's about.

661
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: It at the time for the first few iterations of

662
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 2: this award.

663
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, of course, a little recognition for those in

664
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: the know. But it's not like now where a lot

665
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 1: of people now are like, it's a James Beard restaurant,

666
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: we got to go there totally like just from people

667
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: watching you know, Food Network and stuff like that in

668
00:35:59,160 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety.

669
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 4: So they just said, bought this house in the.

670
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: Like eighty what do you say, eighty seven, eighty six,

671
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: eighty six, and got things going sort of in the

672
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: late eighties, and then in nineteen ninety the publisher of

673
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: The Who's Who of Cooking in America said, you know what,

674
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: we'd like to sell this property, and come said I'll

675
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: take it and bought the rights to At the time,

676
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: it was sort of the best honors book for top chefs,

677
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: and he said, well, here, let's expand it though, and

678
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: let's not have just chefs, but let's have food at

679
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: critics and restaurants and wine Somlia's and wine people and

680
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: cookbooks and eventually, you know, podcasts and blogs and let's

681
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: give awards for all kinds of things. And eventually that

682
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: became the James Beard Chef and Restaurant Awards that we

683
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: still have today.

684
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think they actually had them in parallel for

685
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: a little while, and then they shut down the Who's

686
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 2: Who of Cooking in America because those awards were only

687
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: given out by previous award, so it became kind of

688
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 2: an ara Borros. It wasn't very expansive. It was very

689
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: tight knit. But the James Beard Chef and Restaurant Awards,

690
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 2: at the very least were meant to be more far

691
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: looking than the who's who of cooking in America was. Yes,

692
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 2: whether they achieved that or not depends on who you

693
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 2: ask in what year you asked it. But eventually, in

694
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 2: the early nineties it started to become a at least

695
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: that you could see the outlines of the prestigious award

696
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: that it is today.

697
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure.

698
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: The first awards in ninety one were held on the

699
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: MS New Yorker Cruise ship, Dinner Cruise Ship and the

700
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: Best Chef, and they give them out I think New York, Texas,

701
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: and California now each have are their own region and

702
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: then everyone else is split up into like Southeast and

703
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: Northeast and stuff like that.

704
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 4: Can fly over exactly.

705
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: But that first year, see if you recognized any of

706
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: these names. The very first year of those awards, Southeast

707
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: winner was Emerald Legassi.

708
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: Isn't he the one who'd be like, I guarantee No,

709
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 2: Well then no, I haven't heard of him.

710
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 4: He's the bam guy.

711
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: The Midwest was Chef Rick Bayliss Bobby Flay one rising

712
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 1: star chef.

713
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: Wasn't he married to the actor from Law and Order

714
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 2: Bobby Flaked assistant DA for a while.

715
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 4: Oh, I don't know, Yeah, maybe that's a yes.

716
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: A chef Nancy Silverton, who was a legend, won Pastry

717
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: Chef in ninety one, then one for her restaurant Campanil

718
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 1: in two thousand and one, and then one for Best

719
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 1: Overall Chef in twenty fourteen, so she's a three time winner.

720
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 4: And if you're wondering who.

721
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,479
Speaker 1: Won Best Outstanding or overall Outstanding Chef that very.

722
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 4: First year, hey, look at me. It's a really very

723
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 4: fuss winner.

724
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 2: Very nice. That's appropriate because he all put the James

725
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: Beard House on the map.

726
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: Oh and also quickly for you wine lovers, Robert Mondavi

727
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: won Outstanding Wine and Spirits Professional that very first year.

728
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 4: And Mondavi is now.

729
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: Like, you know, a wine led right, and it's hard

730
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: to stop and imagine. But at the time these were

731
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 2: all like unknowns in America, you know. And I don't

732
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 2: think it's coincidence that they're all household names now with

733
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: huge brands and huge, mega money making careers behind them

734
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: because of the James Beard Awards, at least in some

735
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: large part.

736
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think restaurants who have been nominated just nominated

737
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: for a Beard Award says that they typically double their

738
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: reservations and they increase their sales by twenty to twenty

739
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: five percent.

740
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: Not all though. I saw an interview with a guy

741
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: named Jason Wilson who had a restaurant called Crush in

742
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 2: Seattle back in the mid I think the twenty ten

743
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 2: or eleven he won Best Chef and he said, Nope,

744
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 2: it did not have that effect people. We talked about

745
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 2: it more, but it didn't get more people in the restaurant.

746
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: From what I can tell, though, he was an outlier

747
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 2: in that respect.

748
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought you were going to say he won

749
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 1: in March of twenty twenty and just couldn't understand why

750
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: people weren't backing up.

751
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 2: Well, he actually did cite the economic downturn is one

752
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: reason why it wasn't happening, and he was talking about

753
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: the from the two thousand and eight meltdown was still going.

754
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: I remember that was that lasted easily until twenty twelve

755
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 2: or thirteen, and he won in twenty ten, so he

756
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: had just in there griping.

757
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: So we need to talk about the controversies of the

758
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: Beard Awards though, because they've had a few things that

759
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: happened over the years. Any awards ceremony is going to

760
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: have controversies. That's just how it goes. Anytime you have

761
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: a body of people doling out awards that are meaningful

762
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 1: and economically impactful, it's going to happen, especially.

763
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 2: When it's a group of almost exclusively white people.

764
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that comes up a little later, kind of recently.

765
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 1: But in two thousand and four, they had a chairman

766
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: named Leonard Pickel I guess senior or junior. I don't

767
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: think it's pronounced pickle p i c k e l.

768
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: And he was convicted of grand larceny I think second

769
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,720
Speaker 1: degree grand larceny for basically stealing about a million dollars

770
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: in cash or you know, expensing things he shouldn't expense

771
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: over a three year period, like those are the foundation's money,

772
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: and they have a lot of you know, scholarships that

773
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: they dole out too, so that's you know, that's a

774
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: big deal if you're stealing from him. He's spent a

775
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: few years in prison.

776
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 4: The board resigned.

777
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: There were a bunch of journalists who were judges that resigned,

778
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: they came back from that, and then you know, Mario

779
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: Battally comes along, the me Too movement comes along, and

780
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, there's people that are saying, like,

781
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 1: wait a minute, a lot of these chefs you're nominating

782
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: and acknowledging are monsters, either literal sexual assault assaulters or

783
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: they're just you know, chefs can be well known for

784
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: being sort of monsters in the kitchen and screaming and

785
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: yelling at people, and you know, they have tempers generally speaking.

786
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 2: True, but I saw and it makes a lot of sense.

787
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 2: You can really blame food network producers and other network

788
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 2: producers who created kitchen based reality shows for perpetuating that

789
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 2: and making it seem normal and creating that whole generation

790
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: of mean, bullying chefs who would just do that without

791
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: a second thought, thanks to people like Gordon Ramsay doing

792
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 2: that on TV for year after year after year.

793
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,479
Speaker 4: But they were already doing it in real life.

794
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: Yes, true, but there was there's also always been chefs

795
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 2: that didn't do that too, and it made it, It

796
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 2: made it trendy to do that. It just made it

797
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 2: acceptable for so long that it wasn't until the last

798
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 2: few years that people really started pushing it back on

799
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,760
Speaker 2: it and said, no, this isn't normal. It's not okay

800
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,280
Speaker 2: for our entire industry to be like this. I shouldn't

801
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 2: be berated at work every single night. It's not okay.

802
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 2: And so people finally pushed back on it, and the

803
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: James Beard Awards got caught in the middle of that

804
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 2: because they've been awarding all these chefs that were really

805
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: troublesome people and mean over the years, all these awards

806
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: award after award after awards, so they were also supporting

807
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 2: it indirectly, and you can also make a case directly too.

808
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 2: And so once this was kind of established like this

809
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: is not okay, James Beard Awards, you are the arbiter

810
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: of what is who are good chefs? You got to

811
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 2: do something about this too, they kind of went back

812
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: and said, Okay, what are we going to do about this?

813
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 2: We've got to do something because at the very least

814
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 2: for optics, we can't keep giving these people awards, and

815
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: who knows, maybe they actually do care about the industry

816
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,919
Speaker 2: and the people working in the industry, and in that case,

817
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 2: they really needed to reconfigure what they were doing and

818
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: reevaluate it.

819
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it wasn't just you know, monsters in the kitchen,

820
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: but it was a pattern of like, hey, and this

821
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: is this is just the history of the restaurant industry.

822
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: It's like white men are recognized more, they're more at

823
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: least in the past.

824
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 2: Just the restaurant industry.

825
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 4: Though.

826
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's gotten way way better in the last you know,

827
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: ten or fifteen years. But you know, for most of

828
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: restaurant history, it was like white men were the chefs

829
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 1: and they were running the show. For the most part.

830
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: There were exceptions. Of course, it's gotten way way better

831
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: now there's much more inclusion. In twenty eighteen, the James

832
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: Beard Foundation said, we need to make some real changes

833
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: to a kind of get these bad apples out of

834
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: the nomination process to begin with, and be more inclusive

835
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: and sort of think outside our own, you know, box

836
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 1: that we've been in for so long about what makes

837
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:56,479
Speaker 1: a good chef.

838
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. So they actually they did do that. They

839
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 2: made a concerted effort and were kind of successful pretty

840
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: much out of the gate, but they became victims of

841
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 2: their own ambitions in twenty twenty when they canceled the

842
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 2: James Beard Awards, not just for twenty twenty, but for

843
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, and they blamed it on the COVID pandemic,

844
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: which made sense, but people were also like, well, you know,

845
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 2: everybody else has been doing this stuff over zoom, Like,

846
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 2: why would you cancel the whole awards.

847
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

848
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: Apparently an insider in the foundation who was also like

849
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 2: either a Shepherd, journalist or whatever, came and told everybody

850
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: else that's not why they canceled the awards. They canceled

851
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 2: the awards because every single person who won this year

852
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 2: in reality is white. So they just didn't give out

853
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 2: the awards and that caused a huge stir among everybody

854
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 2: in the industry.

855
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I mean they covered it up. And

856
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: this was after trying to do the right thing, and

857
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: they canceled, like you said, the next one just because

858
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: they were still sort of reeling from what had happened

859
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: in or they canceled I'm sorry in twenty twenty one

860
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: because they were still reeling from twenty twenty. Finally came

861
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: back last year in twenty twenty two with the first

862
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: awards in I guess three years, and they had a

863
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: total overhaul of the committee and how they judge. They're

864
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: saying that you know, there's an ethics committee now that

865
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: vets nominees just on a personal level, and then also

866
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 1: said and the way we're judging, like we need to

867
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: think about the criteria in different terms as well moving forward.

868
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they still don't have it figured out because this

869
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: Ethics committee has gotten has become such watchdogs or guard dogs,

870
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 2: I should say of James Beard Awards that they hire

871
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 2: private investigators to investigate the nominees. Part of the nomination

872
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: process now is being grill over zoom or probably in

873
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 2: person now by private investigators working on behalf of the

874
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 2: James Beard Ethics Committee, and that soured people in and

875
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: of itself. So they've just they're like a pendulum that

876
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 2: somehow misses the middle every time. It just keeps going

877
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 2: from once I do another and I think they're on

878
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 2: the right track. And somebody gave them credit. They said

879
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 2: one chef said that we're seeing. What we're seeing is

880
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 2: quote an institution self correct in real time, which is

881
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 2: you know, that's fair, and maybe they should take off

882
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: another couple of years until they get it figured out.

883
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 2: But they're trying at least, and they have been successful

884
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,839
Speaker 2: some years, but they just there's just been misstep after

885
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 2: misstep as they try to figure this out. It's a

886
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 2: big systemic issue, and they're kind of like the vanguard

887
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 2: of the whole thing, so people are looking to them

888
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 2: more than other places too.

889
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, there were two incidences this past year in particular

890
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: that made the news. One was that a finalist for

891
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: Best Chef in the South, an Alabama chef named Timothy Hansis,

892
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: was disqualified a month before the awards because they were like,

893
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: he's one of these guys that breaks his staff, even

894
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: yells at customers. He denied this stuff, said, well, it

895
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 1: sounded like he was like, hey, listen, I'm a passionate guy.

896
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: But this stuff is not how it's being characterized. But

897
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: one of the real problems is they didn't communicate that

898
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: to the committee members that they had disqualified it, like

899
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: they found out about it in the press and a

900
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,879
Speaker 1: lot of other chefs and judges, because I think there's

901
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: like six hundred ultimate judges, the chefs and food writers

902
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 1: and journalists all over the country. A few of those quit,

903
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: one called it fake virtue signaling, one smashed his previous award,

904
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: another step down in protest. And then this Kentucky chef

905
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: named Sam before was a finalist for Best Chef South East,

906
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 1: and she said that she was questioned, like given basically

907
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: no notice, questioned over zoomed by these investigators over social

908
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: media posts where she had spoken out against domestic violence

909
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: and sexual assault. And the way this goes the way

910
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 1: this happens is anonymous tipster's calling in, so you can

911
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: call in and anonymously say anything you want about someone,

912
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you're being investigated without any

913
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: like prior, you know, warning of what is even going on.

914
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, she's on this zoom and

915
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 1: they're saying that she was it was targeted harassment and

916
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 1: bullying because of some tweets that she sent out sort

917
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: of exposing stories of sexual assault, but she never named anybody.

918
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: And she told the people, She's like, how can you

919
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: accuse me of targeted harassment if after an hour you

920
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 1: still don't know who I'm targeting, Like I didn't name anybody.

921
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: And she was, you know, obviously really upset about this,

922
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: and it just seems like there's too much secrecy around

923
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: how it goes down. These investigations. They don't have a

924
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: real true like day in court for the accused. It's

925
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: just that they're kind of just almost surprised.

926
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 4: It seems like, and.

927
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: You know, before you know it, then they're not in

928
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 1: consideration and they're like, well, wait a minute, I didn't

929
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: even get a chance to plead.

930
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 4: My case in full.

931
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 2: It sounds kafka esque.

932
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bourdain has always been very critical.

933
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 4: He was. He had a lot of bad stuff to

934
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 4: say about the Beard Words over the years.

935
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure, funny stuff, a lot of it about not

936
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: being inclusive and like, who do you think you're kidding

937
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: by saying you're now inclusive? Stuff like that, and it's

938
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: just like he wasn't an award guys. He's kind of

939
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: like the people who bashed the oscars and just like

940
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: just a bunch of industry people, you know self, you know,

941
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: patting each other on the back.

942
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

943
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 2: I'll always remember a tweet from him at like right

944
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 2: when Baby Driver came out and everybody was crazy for it.

945
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: All it said was fab driver, but he didn't say

946
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 2: f and it was just three words that completely undermined

947
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 2: everybody else.

948
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 4: It was really kind of masterful ordine. Love that guy.

949
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 2: So yeah, one thing though, Chuck, just to wrap this

950
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 2: all up to me, James Beard is still such an

951
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 2: endigma and confusing. I have no idea what he would

952
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,720
Speaker 2: make of this this award scandal stuff.

953
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, none of the awards came about until

954
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: he was gone, so he might be like, I don't

955
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: even like the idea of these awards.

956
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: Who who knows not?

957
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 4: Or maybe he would, Yeah, we don't know.

958
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,240
Speaker 2: If you want to know anything more about James Beard,

959
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: there's a lot out there. You can also start with

960
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 2: his cookbooks too, which are allegedly quite good. Chuck's gonna

961
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 2: let all of us know about his onion sandwiches.

962
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 4: I'm going to do it.

963
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 2: Since Chucks that I'm going to do it, we've just

964
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: triggered listener mail.

965
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: Oh, by the way, that onion should be a sweet

966
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: white onion, So a idelia.

967
00:51:58,840 --> 00:51:59,439
Speaker 4: Is a great choice.

968
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: Only a sweet yellow onion.

969
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: It is yellow, but maybe the sweet overrides the color.

970
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:10,439
Speaker 1: What you don't want is a red out again.

971
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 2: Okay, I could see that. That's a that's a real

972
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 2: harsh yeah.

973
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, I'm gonna call this reality. We did

974
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: that episode is reality real and got a lot.

975
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 4: Of great feedback on it.

976
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: People seem to enjoy kind of breaking their brains momentarily, Hey, guys,

977
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: just listen to that episode. Thumbs up for daring to

978
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: tackle such a subject that one could get really in

979
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: the weeds about. For example, one could argue that each

980
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: other is humans, reality is different from one another. The

981
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: whole idea of perception is reality, and everyone's perception is

982
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 1: different than one. Mask must ask what the definition of

983
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: reality is? I kind of talked about that a little

984
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: bit to okay, anyhow, all that aside, one question I

985
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: was never able to understand why it's even a question.

986
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: Is if a tree falls in the woods and no

987
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 1: one's around to hear it doesn't make a sound. Doesn't

988
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: science tell us that sound is caused by friction and vibration.

989
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: That tree would have to pull off one heck of

990
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: a trick to fall without causing any kind of friction

991
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 1: and vibration. And furthermore, what makes us so important that

992
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: a tree would put on a friction and vibration show

993
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 1: only when we're present? Am I missing something here with

994
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: this tree sound issue? I've just never understood why that's

995
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 1: a question, at least because we are in the presence

996
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 1: and know about science. But then again, science also can't

997
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,959
Speaker 1: seem to talk some out of the flat earth theory either,

998
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: which is reality for some love the pod. Keep up

999
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 1: the great work, and that is Corey and Omaha, Nebraska.

1000
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Corey. I guess to kind of answer

1001
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 2: that a little bit as best I can. I can't

1002
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 2: even this has been too my brain's broken. Let me

1003
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 2: just stop for well.

1004
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 4: I think you kind of answered it in that episode.

1005
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess we do. Yeah. It's funny

1006
00:53:57,920 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 2: that Corey brings us up because there's something that hit

1007
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 2: me the other day too. Like when we did the

1008
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 2: reality episode, I totally understood everything that we were saying.

1009
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 4: It all made sense to me.

1010
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 2: And then an airplane flew overhead, and I wondered why

1011
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 2: I was witnessing hearing an airplane fly overhead that I

1012
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 2: was not expecting. That has nothing to do with my

1013
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 2: life other than the fact that I can hear it

1014
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 2: and it's flying overhead. Why would that exist? I don't know.

1015
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 2: The best thing I can come up with is that

1016
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,240
Speaker 2: it exists for those other people, and they just happen

1017
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 2: to be passing by the space that I'm occupying at

1018
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 2: the time, and I'm within earshot, so it happens for me.

1019
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 2: I don't know. I can't can't quite connect those dots.

1020
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 2: So I kind of get what Corey's saying there.

1021
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I get it too. I I don't like to

1022
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 4: think about this stuff.

1023
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 2: I love it. I'll think about it for both of us.

1024
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: Oh great, Well, if you want to get in touch

1025
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 2: with this like Corey did and break our brains a

1026
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 2: little further, we love to hear from you. You can

1027
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 2: send us an email to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

1028
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

1029
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 3: more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1030
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1031
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 2: H