1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Friday Night Special. That's right, 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: It's Friday Night and it's special. Does the name Alec 3 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: Baldwin ring a bell? Well, he's back in the Last Days. 4 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin has a mystery car crash and of course 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: find someone else to blame. What is the truth behind 6 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: movie superstar Alec Baldwin's quote, Well, car crash. I'm Nancy Grace, 7 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for 8 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: being with us. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. 9 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. Hampton's 10 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: police State. Alec Baldwin insists he was not to blame 11 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: for ramming his Range Rover into a fixed object, a tree. 12 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: New footage now emerging seemingly contradicts Baldwin's version of what 13 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: happened in the crash. Now, Baldwin claims he slammed his 14 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: wife's SUV into a tree. He says it happens after 15 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: a I guess this is a trash truck. A National 16 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: Waste Services truck cut him off and sent him careening 17 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: to the side of the road. Now, new footage obtained 18 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: shot from inside the truck. The trash truck or dump 19 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: truck shows it exiting unimpeded. Okay, according to this footage, 20 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: we understand Baldwin's car then emerges to the right the 21 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: vehicle and shoots off the road and smashes into a tree. 22 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: Huh ole at Baldwin's range. River seemingly shows up in 23 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: the shot of that I guess dash cam they've got 24 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: well after the truck completes the turn out onto the 25 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: street the quote disputed maneuver. So based on that video, 26 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: it seems that the dump truck had nothing to do 27 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: with Baldwin's SUV slamming into a tree. I'd like to 28 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: report nobody's hurt and Baldwin did not make a complete 29 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: ass of himself this time for once. Now there are 30 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: reports there was no sign at all the truck forced 31 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: Baldwin out of his lane, and there was no obstruction 32 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: on the road that required Baldwin to swerve off the road. 33 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: The significance of this is that he seemingly is blaming 34 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: either his suv or the dump truck, just like he 35 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: blamed the self firing gun on the set of the 36 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: Rust movie, where he, according to ballistics experts, pulled the 37 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: trigger and shot Helena Hutchins dead. Now, have I ever 38 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: believed he did it all purpose? No, I don't think that. 39 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 1: I think it was reckless and negligent that he fired 40 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: a gun pointed directly at someone. Yes, he likely you know, 41 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: I go out on a limb. He clearly thought it 42 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: was full of blanks. But he still pulled the trigger, 43 00:03:54,160 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: fired the gun, and it killed Helena Hutchins. He Baldwin kline, 44 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: the gun went off by itself. Okay, that's not true. 45 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: Hey lied that said. This is what we know of 46 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: the facts of Helena Hutson's shooting, dip tragedy. 47 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 2: On the film set of a new Alec Baldwin movie 48 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 2: and what police are calling a misfire of a prop 49 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: gun in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The Sheriff's office there 50 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 2: has just confirmed it was Baldwin who fired the prop 51 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: gun that killed a forty two year old female director 52 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: of stotography, Helena Hutchins. The film's director Juels Susa was 53 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: also hurt. This incident happened on the set of The 54 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: Western Rust. Now detectives are investigating what type of projectile 55 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 2: discharged from this gun. 56 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: You were just hearing our friend Christine Johnson was CBS 57 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: what really happened. According to reports, the assistant yelled out 58 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: cold gun just before the shooting, which means the gun 59 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: was safe, that it was loaded with a blank. So 60 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: how do we have a woman, dad, another film person 61 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: injured with me and all star panel to make sense 62 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: of it all? If we can? With me? Dominic Romano 63 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: lawyer joining us out of New York at Romano Law 64 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: dot Com is specialty entertainment law, and I can tell 65 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: you if somebody's going to need a lawyer. Doctor Sherry 66 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: Schwartz forensic psychologists joining us. Karen L. Smith, forensic expert, 67 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: host of Shattered Soul's podcast at Beerbonesforensics dot com. Paul 68 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: Zeke joining us special guest, former police commander and author 69 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon, and he 70 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,119 Speaker 1: has lots of experience using firearms with blanks during live 71 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: action movie scenes like Terminator Salvation. Doctor Michelle dupre forensic pathologists, 72 00:05:54,880 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: former medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, and 73 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: a former police detective. But first to Alexis Terreschuk, crime 74 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: online dot com investigative reporter joining us from Hollywood. Alexis 75 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: what is getting folded into the story, right or wrong? 76 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: Is Alec Baldwin's history, his reputation for let me just 77 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: say hot headedness to put it ephemistically. If he thought 78 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: it was a blank and it should have been a blank, 79 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: then history aside it was an accident. But how can 80 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: it really be an accident when somebody loaded this prop 81 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: gun with real bullets? Just start at the beginning. 82 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 3: They were on a set in Santa Fe, New Mexico. 83 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 3: It's a Western style movie. So they were sitting in 84 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 3: a church at an old church team and Alex Baldwen 85 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 3: was sitting in one of the pews and he was 86 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 3: practicing what's called a cross draw, and so that would 87 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 3: be where the person take your left hand and rabs 88 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 3: the gun out of the holster on your opposite hip, 89 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 3: pulls it across to fire. He was practicing this move 90 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: standing the cinematographer, which is the person that makes the 91 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 3: movie beautiful. This is the person that films the scene. 92 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 3: She was standing in front of him, with the assistant 93 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 3: director stands lembard with the director standing right behind her. 94 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 3: He was looking over her shoulder to see what it 95 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 3: would look like when Alex pulled the gun out. He 96 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 3: pulled it out of the side points it at her 97 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: to show them, pulls the trigger and it fires a 98 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 3: lot round. 99 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: Into her, hits. 100 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 4: Her in the stomach and actually believe goes. 101 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 3: Through her and grazes the director sitting standing right behind her. 102 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: Hush has pronounced dead at an Albuquerque hospital after being 103 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: rushed to the emergency room. You know what, I always 104 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: love playing nine to one one calls for a jury 105 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: because it takes you back to what's really happening. Not 106 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: a description, not someone recounting what happened, but you're hearing 107 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: what really happened. Take a listen to the beginning of 108 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: that nine one one call. 109 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 5: I was only going one watch the location of your emergency. 110 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 5: We need a met we needed butic Financa free grants 111 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 5: right now we touch the people shot on the movie accidentally, 112 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 5: he said, someone with shot. Two people accidentally with gunshots 113 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 5: are on movie steps and as the Creek grants wonder, 114 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 5: I'll connect you with medical set. Who are you calling? 115 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 6: Where the road? 116 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 5: Don't hiring for emergency fantasy plan people accidentally shot on 117 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,719 Speaker 5: a movie step live top gun. We need out the 118 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 5: media like Finanza free grants, come on. They almost if 119 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 5: we were going, Okay, what is your name? 120 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 4: Mitchell? 121 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 5: Mitchell wants upon where you're calling from. 122 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 3: Five up, don't hang up? 123 00:08:58,559 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, just one stuff? 124 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 5: Accident for somebody else is calling calling better mass? Everybody 125 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 5: should be can help our director in our cameraman as 126 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 5: a camera woman. 127 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: Now you hear repeatedly the word accident accidentally throughout that. 128 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: But is it an accident? Very often when you have, 129 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: for instance, a dui crash, people go, well, it was 130 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: an accident. But was it because the driver chooses to 131 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: go to a bar to order drinks, to drink, to 132 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: become legally intoxicated, to then get the car keys, walk 133 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: to the car, get in the car, crank up, reverse 134 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: and drive out onto the roads. That sounds pretty deliberate. 135 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: So is it an accident? Is it gross negligence? Well, 136 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: take a listen to more of that nine to one 137 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: one call. 138 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 7: Was it loaded with a real hole? 139 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 5: Or I don't I cannot start you up? Okay, we 140 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 5: have two injuries from the movie done. Josh were out 141 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 5: there already the dam upon any single Okay, I see 142 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 5: that yelled at me at lunch. 143 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 6: Could ask him about the vision. 144 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 5: You can ye and yell at me. He's a suggested gun. 145 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: He's responsible. 146 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 6: I have to danger. 147 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 5: How many no, no, no, no, I'm super hard. 148 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 6: I ran how many people angers? 149 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 3: True that I know of. 150 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 5: I was seeing we were hurting and it went off 151 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 5: and I ran out. We all ran out. There were 152 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 5: but doubles over the id and the camera woman and 153 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 5: the director and the director were clearing the road. Try 154 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 5: to come back. We're back on their way. Were back 155 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 5: in the town. I called, We're back in the western town. 156 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 7: Is there any serious bleeding? 157 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 4: I don't know. 158 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 5: I ran out of the building. But y nice, I 159 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 5: have to go through vehicle paint. 160 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: Are they. 161 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace? Here's the thing. Just tell 162 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: the truth. I thought there were blanks in the gun. 163 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: I fired it. I shot her. It was an accident. 164 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. That would have been the truth. Or the 165 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: road was wet. I swerved off the side of it 166 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: and I crashed the darn SUV into the tree. Nobody 167 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: was hurt. Nobody's getting sued. That would be the truth. 168 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: Why blame the gun and lie? Why blame what did 169 00:11:53,240 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: he say? He blamed a quote? Well, call are okay? 170 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: Whal car crash? Why blame the driver of a dump truck? 171 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: Just you know, own up to it. Man, nobody's hurt, 172 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: nobody's dead, nobody's dismembered. Just why why, which leads me 173 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: back to the shooting of Helena Hutchins. Paul's like, thank 174 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: you for being with us. What went wrong? Obviously there 175 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: was a live bullet and what should have been a 176 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: prop gun. 177 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 6: But what happened, Nancy? The only explanation for this is 178 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 6: a systemic breakdown in systems that are in place to 179 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 6: ensure that live ammunition is not present on the set. 180 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: Okay, now that was a lot of words, Paul's I 181 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: think you're saying somebody didn't do their job. 182 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 6: Well, absolutely, somebody did not do their job and catastrophically 183 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 6: did not do that. There's no reason whatsoever for live 184 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 6: ammunition to be on the set of any set. Because 185 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 6: these weapons are capable of firing live rounds. They're not 186 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 6: really prop guns. They're deadly weapons being used as props. 187 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: Okay, hold on right there, I want to make that distinction. 188 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right when look, I'm a trial lawyer, I'm 189 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: a legal expert. You're the expert in this world. When 190 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: I say prompt gun, I mean they're using it as 191 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: a prop. But you're making a very fine subtle but 192 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 1: important distinction. A prompt gun is a fake gun. I 193 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: don't think it even can shoot? Is that right. 194 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 6: Exactly you're talking about? And say it pop knife? Correct? 195 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 6: It has a flat edge on it. It's incapable of cutting you. 196 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 6: These are things that are not deemed to be dangerous. 197 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 6: A prop gun is simply as utilized on set. Are 198 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 6: weapons that are capable of firing live ammunition and therefore 199 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 6: accidentally live ammunition could be mixed with blank rounds. You know, 200 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 6: given time, this is just a disaster waiting to happen. 201 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 6: They need to move to true guns that are incapable 202 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 6: of chambering live ammunition. Until that happens, this has a 203 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 6: very strong chance of repeating itself. 204 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: Well, okay, tell me this. Paul Zaike, guys with me. 205 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: Paul Zike. He is a former police commander. He's an 206 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: author screen actors gil and has experience using blanks during 207 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: live action movie scenes where we all think they're shooting 208 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: real guns. If you suspend your disbelief in movies like 209 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: His Terminator Salvation, those aren't real guns. So why are 210 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: they using a real gun? To start with? Paul Zike 211 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: and I mean to me, having been forced to handle 212 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: so many guns and so many homicides. What moron wouldn't 213 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: make sure that there were blanks in the gun. 214 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 6: It's hard to imagine that during the loading of the 215 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 6: weapon that that was not viewed very strictly as a 216 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 6: weapon is loaded. And also there's a chain of custody 217 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 6: issue here on the scene of Terminator Salvation. As we 218 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 6: would go out and we would conduct the battle scene, 219 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 6: if you will, in the middle of the night, we 220 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 6: would be handed directly from the armor fully automatic weapons 221 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 6: and magazines, fully loaded with blanks, and we would head 222 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 6: straight out to where the scene was to be shot, 223 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 6: and then we would engage in the scene, you know, 224 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 6: five ten minutes later, hand the weapons straight back to 225 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 6: the armor, all the ammunition back to the armor, all 226 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 6: the magazines back to the armor, and we would not 227 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 6: be able to touch those weapons again until the next scene. 228 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 6: So from a chain of custody standpoint, it went directly 229 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 6: from the armor directly to my hand, my you know, 230 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 6: the co actor's hands that were with me, and that 231 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 6: was maintained very strictly. 232 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: Hold on, Paul, I've got to soak in everything you're saying, 233 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: because Dominate Romano a high profile lawyer joining us out 234 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: of New York's specialty entertainment law. And that's why Dominate's 235 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: joining us today. Dominate hold on. When you heard Paul's 236 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: like say, chain of custody, I immediately thought of a 237 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: serial murderer that I prosecuted on one murder. We could 238 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: get him on one and ended up I would say 239 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: three weeks before trial. I was just looking at the 240 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: evidence and I noticed that the bag that contained the 241 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: evidence wasn't signed. It had never been signed by the 242 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: homicide cop that picked it up from It was DNA, 243 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: and there was blood from where it had been taken 244 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: and carried to the crime lab. It wasn't written on 245 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: the back. Did anybody tamper with it? No, he just 246 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: didn't put his initials. I'm like, oh, dear Lord in Heaven, 247 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: the chain is broken. This could be attacked at trial. 248 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: I had to go back out to the jail stand 249 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: there and look at this killer while he pulled his 250 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: blood again. Then I carried it with my investigator myself 251 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: back to the crime lab to have it retested. Praise 252 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: the Lord in Heaven. It was his DNA. Long story short, 253 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: that's chain of custody. Your case can be lost. You 254 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: can lose a serial killer because somebody didn't keep the 255 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: chain to preserve the integrity of the trial. That's what 256 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: I thought when Paul zai, except chain of custody. But 257 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: did you also hear him say dominic romano he handed 258 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: it back to the It sounded like he was saying 259 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: armor or armory. But I've been reading about this case. 260 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: It's an arm er, armor er who is the person 261 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: in charge of all the weapons. 262 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 8: I think Paul is absolutely right looking no one should 263 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 8: ever be killed by a gun on a film set period. 264 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 8: Those are the words of Brandon Lee's sister. Brandon Lee 265 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 8: shot on a film set in the early nineteen nineties. 266 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 6: This should not happen. 267 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 8: There are established protocols, chains of command. I mean, there 268 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 8: appears to be some serious gross negligence on that set 269 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 8: to allow that to have that. That is the appearance, 270 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 8: and I don't know what evidence can come out to 271 00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 8: rebut that presumption. 272 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: Five round in well, as Paul's ike has corrected me, 273 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: it's not a prop gun. They were using real guns. Hey, 274 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: let me ask you a question, Paul's Ike, explain the 275 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: difference and what a blank looks like as opposed to 276 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: a live round a bullet. We're saying live rounds, we're 277 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: talking about a bullet. What's the difference. Can't you just 278 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: look at them and you can see the difference in. 279 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 6: Most cases, absolutely, it's very clear. You can see the 280 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 6: difference in some types of calibers, say two two three, 281 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 6: if you will, that's what an AR fifteen would shoot. 282 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 6: The blanks are kind of crypt at the end to 283 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 6: almost look like there's a bullet on the end of them. 284 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 6: But any sort of trained professional whatsoever, when you're handling 285 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 6: a blank, you know it's a blank. When it's a bullet, 286 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 6: you know it's a bullet. The blank does not have 287 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 6: a lead projectile or a steel projectile at the end 288 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 6: of the round, So at the end it's either flat 289 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 6: or it's slightly crimped to hold in the gunpowder, which 290 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 6: the firearm usually needs the gunpowder to correctly function the 291 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 6: weapon and cycle the weapon. And it's one of the 292 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 6: reasons why blanks are used. 293 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: Okay, Paul Zike, I really respect you, but you're gonna 294 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: have to dumb me down for me, okay, because I 295 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: would have to put you through intensive training before you 296 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: take the stand because a lot of people do not 297 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: know what you just said. Just think about it and 298 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: think if there's a way you can say it in 299 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: more simple terms. What's the difference between a blank and 300 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: a lie bullet when you look at it? Speak English Man. 301 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,479 Speaker 1: In the meantime, Wait a minute. You mentioned Brandon Lee, 302 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: and you're absolutely right. We pulled sound of other cases 303 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: almost identical to this. This is not the first time 304 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: it's happened, believe it or not, Tyler, could you roll 305 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: our cut forty four? Let's follow up on what Paul 306 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: Zike said about Brandon Lee. 307 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 9: That's a bully coun that killed Brandon Lee. Some believe 308 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 9: a piece of a croplyd without gunpowder and it may 309 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 9: have been left accidentally in the gun blank was fired 310 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 9: at Brandon some fiel let's shot out the properly, mortally 311 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 9: wounding him. 312 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 4: There was an accident waiting to happen. 313 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 9: The Crow crewmember we spoke but says that there were 314 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 9: many opportunities for an accident to happen. Are the working 315 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 9: conditions on the set of the Crow particularly bad? 316 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 10: Threely long hours, eighteen hour days back to back at times, 317 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 10: pushing ninety one hundred. 318 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: Hours a week and six day weeks way too much? 319 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 9: Do you think that that over work, that exhaustion might 320 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 9: have resulted in this accident. 321 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: Sage, your cautious. 322 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 8: Olivan were definitely not called. 323 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 6: It could have been prevented. 324 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: With better management. The publicist for. 325 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 9: The movie The Crow denies that the working conditions were unsane. 326 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 11: Certainly everyone was very tired and exhausted from the shoe, 327 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 11: but these are professionals and they're used to working conditions 328 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 11: like this. 329 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: Okay, guys, you were hearing our friends and inside Edition, 330 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: and I want to follow up on what we're just 331 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: hearing with Alexis est Chuck. I played that sound for 332 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: a reason, Alexis, because on the Alec Baldwin set of Rust, 333 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: there apparently were problems with working conditions. A group of 334 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: the crew had walked out I think the night before 335 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: the claiming that they had bad hotels. They were an 336 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: hour away from a hotel or motel and if they 337 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: worked late into the night they have to drive through 338 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: I guess the desert, and a lot of them were 339 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: actually sleeping in their cars overnight. That's just some of 340 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: the complaints I've heard. But what are the other complaints, 341 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: if any, on the Alec Baldwin movie set. 342 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 3: Well, there have been complaints that things were not safe. 343 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: Quote. 344 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 3: One of the the person is being directly blamed for 345 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 3: a lot of the unfaked is when you were listening 346 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 3: to the nine one one call and you said you 347 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 3: heard the woman saying that he was yelling at me 348 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 3: things like that. This is the assistant director that they're 349 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 3: talking about. And this is the assistant director David Hall 350 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 3: who handed the gun to Baldwin and said this is 351 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 3: a cold gun. So what the people on that we're 352 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 3: saying is that Halls was not a responcable person. He 353 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 3: was very angry. He was making the job very difficult 354 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,239 Speaker 3: for everybody to do, and they didn't trust him. 355 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, you're saying David Halls was an assistant director. Yeah, okay, 356 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: Well what about the honorer? Is she the one responsible 357 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: for all the weapons and the blanks or the bullets? Guys, 358 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: take another listen to our cut forty three. This is 359 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: about practically the same thing happening before. Listen. 360 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 9: It was here at the Carrol Coast Studios in Wilmington, 361 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 9: North Carolina, that actor Brandon Lee was filming The Crow. Ironically, 362 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 9: the film. 363 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: Is about a man who. 364 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 9: Dies and comes back to life to advanish his death 365 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 9: shortly after midnight last Tuesday. Brandon Lee was preparing to 366 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 9: film a routine action scene. 367 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 10: The script for him to get shot as he walks 368 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 10: through door carrying a bag of groceries. Michael Massey, the 369 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 10: actor doing the shooting, is reportedly devastated by Lee's death 370 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 10: and remains in seclusion. 371 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 9: The Gunny was using was supposed to be loaded with 372 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 9: blanks from the camera's role. Brandon Lee was performing for 373 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 9: the last time. 374 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: The first episodes of a reality show starring Alec Baldwin, 375 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: his wife, and their seven children are hitting the airwaves now. 376 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: According to a string of PR specialists, no one can 377 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: imagine any advisor would have recommended the ball once agree 378 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: to a reality series in the very best of times, 379 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: let alone after the shooting death of cinematographer Helena Hutchins Way, 380 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: you and Teren Smith, well, we. 381 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 4: Deal a lot with forensics. In physics. 382 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 6: When we do a. 383 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 4: Reconstruction, we use snippets of time and sometimes that can 384 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 4: be split seconds, and this includes trajectories of projectiles, and 385 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 4: this trajectory can generally be explained by the reporting. Alec 386 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 4: Baldwin was reported to be sitting at a church pew 387 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 4: to align a camera angle. When the gun was fired, 388 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 4: Alena Hutchins then collapsed on the floor and Juels Susa 389 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 4: was struck and the clavicles. That's an upward trajectory, which means. 390 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 12: Both Hutchins and thus we're standing up when the event occurred. 391 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 12: The projectile that perforated Helena's body and subsequently structurals. Now, 392 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 12: in order for that to happen, the kinetic energy, which 393 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 12: is energy as the result of motion, would be very high. 394 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 12: We're dealing with mass or the amount. 395 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 4: Of matter in an object and energy dispersion. 396 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 12: Guns carry a high volume of energy in a small space, 397 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 12: and that from my experience, it tells me that it 398 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 12: was something other than just the paper or elastic wadding 399 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 12: from a blank round. That needs to be confirmed by 400 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 12: the EMMY. 401 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 4: And the investigator's But there are reports of live ammunition 402 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 4: bullets being on the set and that particular gun allegedly 403 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 4: being used for target practice that morning. There's a lot 404 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,959 Speaker 4: of questions that needs to be answered by the investigators 405 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 4: and theme. 406 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: Again for the set being used as target practice. Paul Zi, 407 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: that shouldn't be that you've got crew members out shooting bottles. 408 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: I think that that's coming out with live bullets, and 409 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: you use that same gun for a saye and a 410 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: church full of people, and Nancy, I. 411 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 6: Just want to clarify the prior point, so very simply, 412 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 6: a blank is a shellcasing with gunpowder in it, with 413 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 6: no bullet. A bullet is the same exact thing with 414 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 6: more gunpowder and a live bullet at the end of 415 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 6: it that is made to travel through the barrel and 416 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 6: exit the weapon. Back to what you were saying, that 417 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 6: the cardinal rule that's been broken, whether you're whether you're 418 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 6: involved in police training or you're involved in a movie set, 419 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 6: keeping live ammunition away from weapons that fire live ammunition 420 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 6: and keeping weapons at fire blanks away from those instances. 421 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 6: And when you mix those two together, the odds of 422 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 6: somebody having a spare live round in one of their 423 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 6: pockets or you name it is super high, and it 424 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 6: sounds very sloppy, and it just just opens the door 425 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 6: for terrible things that happen. And that's where the systemic 426 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 6: breakdown and that controlled environment. 427 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,199 Speaker 1: I'm telling of Paul's like, You're right, super sloppy is 428 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: one way to put it. Gross negligence or unintentional murder 429 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: is another way to put it. I think I hear 430 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: Dominant Ramano jumping in. Go ahead. 431 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 8: Yeah, basically it's a catastrophic miscalculation. I think two people 432 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 8: here should be folks. We should focus on one is 433 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 8: the armor like this is only according to reports or 434 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 8: second movie with jars Read and the assistant director Dave Hauls. 435 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 6: You mentioned before. 436 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 8: According to reports, he was fired from a twenty nineteen 437 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 8: production of Freedom's Past a minor injury. 438 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: Well, Whitney, White, White, you got me drinking from the 439 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: fire hydrant, which is not a bad thing. It's too 440 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: much at once. Hold on in the world, would you 441 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: have somebody that was fired off another similar job handling 442 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: your weapon? Okay? Is that what you just said? Dominant? 443 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 6: Okay? 444 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: Almost so almost. The armorer is twenty. 445 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 8: Four years old, the person handling the weapons, it's only 446 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 8: her second film. She was just in a podcast last 447 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 8: month where she said, you know, she's a bit nervous 448 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 8: about her film, but it went well her while there 449 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 8: is apparently a famous armor okay, so we have that 450 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 8: an experienced armor. Number two, we have the assistant director 451 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 8: known as the ad Dve Holes. Apparently, according to a report, 452 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 8: he was fired from its twenty nineteen production The movie 453 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 8: was freedom passed after crew members suffered guess what, a 454 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 8: minor injury when a gun unexpectedly discharged. 455 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: Dominic Ramano, there were similar transactions are jumping to mind. 456 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: I mean, this solidifies my thought that this is not 457 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: an accident, because an accent when you totally don't see 458 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: it coming, it's just like out of the blue. But 459 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: if this guy, if it's correct, the ad had a 460 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: previous incident, for somebody was shot on a set, and 461 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: if it was a minor injury, then you should have 462 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: seen either new or should have known. Would you agree 463 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: with that, Dominic Romano? 464 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 8: They're going to be some serious questions to be asked 465 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 8: and there have to be answers, and if we don't 466 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 8: have good answers, someone is either going to be involved 467 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 8: in a very expensive lawsuit or depending on what they 468 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 8: knew and when they knew it and how careless they were, 469 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 8: probably facing some time. The other issue you alluded to 470 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 8: earlier is, you know, cost cutting. It's rampant in the 471 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 8: industry right now, and the production company's decision not to 472 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 8: book to crew hotel rooms near the actual set, but 473 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 8: to have them travel an hour in each direction to 474 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 8: get to and from their accommodation to have long hours 475 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 8: where people walked off the set earlier that day in protest. 476 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 6: So this is a. 477 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 8: Combination of what turned out to be a lethal combination 478 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 8: catastrophic calculation on the part of the production company. 479 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: Well you just said a mouthful, all in a good way, 480 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: between the armorer being an experience, the ad having a 481 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: prior similar transaction, and budget cuts problems amongst the crew. 482 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,479 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut six that from our 483 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: friends at News Nation. Now let's start. 484 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 11: With the people responsible for handling a gun. There are 485 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 11: no ubiquorous rules across all film sets, but generally there 486 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 11: are some guidelines that they follow, and here into a 487 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 11: budget project usually plays a big role. By many sets, 488 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 11: there are no fewer than three people responsible for monitoring 489 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 11: a weapon. Prop Mastercums in charge of all cross is 490 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 11: often supported by a safety officer and a sub coordinator, 491 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 11: and depending on the state, you may also need to 492 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 11: bring in an armorer whose only job is handling weapons. 493 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace in the Last Days, Hampton 494 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: detectives find no criminality in Alec Baldwin's car crash striking 495 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: a fixed object, but couldn't just stop there Baldwin had 496 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: to blame the driver of a dump truck for him 497 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: Baldwin veering off the road and hitting a tree. Baldwin, 498 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: who killed a cinematographer Helena Hutchins on the set of 499 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: a Western movie, says he quotes felt bad for crashing 500 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: his wife's car. Okay, but just keep telling the truth. 501 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: You don't have to lie about it. And for once, 502 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: Baldwin was not throwing some sort of a tantrum. He 503 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: actually managed to keep his pieholes shut. What happened the 504 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: day of the crash and the Hamptons we may never know. 505 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: According to footage obtained from inside the dump truck, the 506 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: dump truck or trash truck had nothing to do with 507 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: bottom of veering off the side of the road. Okay, 508 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: no harm, no foul, nobody's hurt. The significance of this 509 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 1: is that he came up with a lie seemingly. 510 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 12: Just like. 511 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: The lie according to Manny he told on the set 512 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: of Rust about the death of a young mom, Doctor Dupree, 513 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure you, like myself, have had to handle weapons 514 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: in front of jury's and I learned this from watching 515 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: a pro trycases. I would always pick the gun up, 516 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: holding it face down with a barrel pointing to the 517 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: ground so the jury or anyone else would not be alarmed. 518 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: What you don't want to do is scare your jury. 519 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: I would walk in front of the jury holding the weapon, 520 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: nose down, open the chain, let them see me check it, 521 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: hold it up like I was examining it through you know, 522 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: my eye level, so they could see that it was empty, 523 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: and then shut it and then give it to the 524 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: witness without fail. Even if it was a weapon that 525 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: I knew was inoperable, that was sp Why would that 526 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: not occur on a movie set? But describe how you're 527 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: supposed to handle weapons exactly. 528 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 4: Antsy, You described it perfectly. 529 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 7: That is exactly what you should do. And if you're 530 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 7: giving a weapon to someone else, normally you have the 531 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 7: chamber open so that they can also see and then. 532 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 3: You both check it. 533 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 7: And know that it's empty or that the blanks are 534 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 7: in it. 535 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: Tell me what you can discern about what Karen Smith, 536 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: forensics expert, just told us about the injuries. What happened, Nancy. 537 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 7: Even though these are quote prop guns or blanks, they 538 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 7: can still obviously devastating damage the wadding or whatever they 539 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 7: are filled with. Even in a blank. But this was 540 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 7: not a blink. This was an actual projectile. 541 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: And as we know, you mean a bullet speak English, 542 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: a bullet. 543 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, this is a bullet. 544 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 7: And the caliber of that bullet of the gun is 545 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 7: what is going to determine how much damage is done. 546 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 7: As she explained, the higher the caliber, the more energy 547 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 7: in that bullet, and so the more damage done to 548 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 7: the physical body. And of course the location where that 549 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 7: bullet enters the body in this case was devastating. 550 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: You know, another issue to doctor Sherry Schwartz. I've been 551 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: on a lot of TV sets, obviously, and movie sets 552 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: for you know, cameos or some legal issue. And I 553 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: got to tell you, doctor Sherry Schwartz, a movie set 554 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: takes on a whole. It's like you're in a different world. 555 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: Like when you go to the movies and you sit 556 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: down and it goes dark, your mind takes you there. Well, 557 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: you're on a movie set. I've never been on a 558 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: single movie set that went on time. You go till 559 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: one or two o'clock in the morning, it's pitch dark outside. 560 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: You keep going until you get the shot or you 561 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: finish this scene or whatever it's called in movie world. 562 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: I think that there is a suspended fear. You think 563 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: you're at a movie set, like when you go to 564 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,479 Speaker 1: Disneyland or when you're on vacation on a cruise ship. 565 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: You suspend your normal thinking it doesn't seem real and 566 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: you're not thinking, wow, there's a gun I could get 567 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: shot because it's quote just a movie. It's not real. 568 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: How do we let me just say, suspend our disbelief, 569 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: suspend rational rules of functioning when you're on a movie 570 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: set or in a movie. You know, like in a 571 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 1: movie is where there's some nut with a gun and 572 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: you hear a sound, but you don't think it's real 573 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: because you're in a movie. What happens in the human mind, Sherry, Well. 574 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 13: When you don't think that something is actually real, then 575 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 13: you would not calculate accurately what the potential risks are, right, 576 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 13: And so there is this gun on the set, but 577 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 13: everybody thinks, oh, it's just make believe. We're setting this 578 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 13: up to film it. Nobody's actually going to get hurt. 579 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 13: And so what happens mentally is that you underestimate what 580 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 13: the potential risks are. And what happened here is an 581 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 13: egregious underestimation, right, so for the rest of us, it's 582 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 13: to make believes. Maybe even for the actor, they know 583 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 13: that they're just playing a role, and everybody around them 584 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,760 Speaker 13: might know they're playing a role. But there are people 585 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 13: on the set who are responsible for that gun and 586 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 13: for taking that proper care and knowing what the potential 587 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 13: risks are. 588 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: Do you, Alexis treshat Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, 589 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 1: you have heard Dominant Romano Paul's like, well, everyone on 590 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,280 Speaker 1: the panel weighing in, But apparently there were a lot 591 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: of problems and a lot of disgruntled crew members. I 592 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: understand that one of the motels they had set them 593 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,800 Speaker 1: up to stay overnight was at a place for the homeless, 594 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: and there were drug addicts there. They were afraid to 595 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,399 Speaker 1: stay there. What was going on on the set, well, it. 596 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 3: Seems like what they were trying to do was make 597 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 3: this film cheaply a possible understandable, but they were putting 598 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:26,839 Speaker 3: people's lives at risk. 599 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: It was fifties. 600 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 3: Hotels were fifty miles away, so after working fourteen hour days, 601 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 3: the crew was having to drive over an hour to 602 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 3: get to their hotel. Then they would have to be 603 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 3: back within like six hours, so they would get almost 604 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 3: no sleep at all. But they were also saying that 605 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 3: things were just not safe. There had been an incident 606 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 3: a few days earlier that one of the prop guns 607 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 3: again prop real gun, had been accidentally fired, and so 608 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 3: the crew had been complaining to the producer, saying this 609 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 3: is not a safe working environment, and they walked off 610 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 3: the set. So Hollywood is very much a union of business, 611 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 3: but the producers hired non union people to replace them. 612 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 3: These nine union people, though, are not the people. That's 613 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 3: not the armor and it's not the assistant director, and 614 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 3: everybody's been talking there at the line of protocol. 615 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: You have so many steps in. 616 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 3: The line of defense, so that when this gun got 617 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 3: to Alex Baldwin, at least two other people were responsible 618 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 3: for saying that it wasn't loaded. 619 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: I mean, didn't somebody even scream out cold gun? I 620 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: mean they have to yell it out, you know what 621 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: you were just saying. I know so many times for 622 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,240 Speaker 1: different shoots. I don't know who he is that carries 623 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: that comes over and they have to do it a 624 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: certain way, they have to say a certain thing, and 625 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: they say it really loudly. I don't know why, but 626 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a reason for it, just like they 627 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 1: would yell out cold gun and everybody would hear it. 628 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: But I guess they yelled it out without banking Alexis. 629 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 3: And there are reports that yes, So there were three 630 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 3: guns that were set up and they were put on 631 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 3: a table outside the church set. And it's because of 632 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 3: COVID nineteen protocols, so not a lot of people are 633 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 3: in the if it's an inclosed set, they're not there 634 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 3: three guns. So the assistant director picked it up. Dave Halls, 635 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 3: as the other guy said, you know, has a history 636 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 3: of a lot of accidents on sets, and handed it 637 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 3: to Bodlin and he is the one that yelled out 638 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 3: cold gun. There's no nobody had said there's so many 639 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 3: people have spoken to the police on the set, so 640 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 3: many of the other crew members, and they said they 641 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 3: didn't know whether it actually was empty or not. And 642 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 3: these guns were used at lunch. This is a post 643 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 3: lunch break, so they broke for lunch at twelve thirty. 644 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 3: They come back after lunch. During that lunchtime, there are 645 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 3: reports that those crew members were using this gun and 646 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 3: other guns to shoot beer bottles out in the desert 647 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 3: area and using it as target practice, so there could 648 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 3: have been alive and then said there were lots of 649 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 3: live ammunition. Nobody was told they couldn't bring live ammunition 650 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 3: on set. That's another thing that. 651 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,439 Speaker 1: You live around on set. 652 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 3: That's a big problem here, and I think. 653 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: I'd like to jump in there. 654 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 6: It's it's it's simply a breakdown of the security of 655 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 6: the scene. The only people there that our arms should 656 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 6: be security personnel. And you know, in my years, my 657 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 6: decade of fighting to keep workplaces safe and to stop 658 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 6: stalking offenders from killing victims, I can tell you one thing, 659 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,240 Speaker 6: and that is nobody thinks the unthinkable is going to happen. 660 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 6: It's a matter of just human thinking. They think that, well, 661 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 6: that happened to somebody else, that didn't happen to me. 662 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 6: And because this is somewhat of a rare occurrence on 663 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 6: a set, people got laxed, They got lackadaisical about fundamental 664 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 6: when it comes to shooting a scene such as this. 665 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 6: And just like at any workplace, this is a workplace 666 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 6: out in the middle of the desert, just like it 667 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 6: would be in an office building. Those protocols broke down 668 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 6: in people at work attempting to do the right thing, 669 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 6: for the right reasons. Had a catastrophic, devastating thing happened, 670 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 6: because we as human beings think, well, if it hasn't happened, 671 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 6: it won't happen. And that's just not the reality of 672 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 6: life when it comes to dangerous events. 673 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: I mean, just like you said, the gun went off 674 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: on its own when he shot Helena Hutchins dead. Now 675 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 1: he slams into a tree and he blames a mystery 676 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: dump truck. M video reveals otherwise. Nancy Grace Sonia, Goodbye.