1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I welcome to stuff 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,120 Speaker 1: I never told you productould by Heart Radio. 3 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: And welcome to another edition of Activists around the World 4 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 2: where I am sick. Let's happens at least once a 5 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: year where I get to do my sexy voice and 6 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: I sound like an eighty year old smokers. 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: Nine year old. 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 2: Whose isn't Annie? Is yours not? That's the way it goes, right, 9 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: I know, I'll go an octave lower. This is the 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 2: only time I'm probably a base if I were to sing. 11 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: I think singing would not be ideal for you right now. 12 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 2: So we just recently talked about our gaming updates, which 13 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: I'm still playing things, and so as we had mentioned then, 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: and we had play to do a follow up with 15 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 2: people from the gaming industry, specifically black women in the 16 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: gaming industry. According to the gamer dot com, the percentage 17 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 2: of women in non binary folks that are in development 18 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 2: have increased from twenty four percent in twenty twenty two 19 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 2: to thirty two percent in twenty twenty four, but of 20 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: course when it comes to those in the black community, 21 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 2: it is significantly less. So much so as we talked 22 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: about the numbers, it's like abysmal. In twenty twenty one, 23 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 2: only five percent of people surveyed by the International Game 24 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 2: Developers Association were from the black community. And this was 25 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 2: from a twenty twenty two NPR article written highlighting black 26 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 2: game developers, which we did use for some of the 27 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: information about our activists. Mistake. Again, I really it was 28 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: a really limited amount of information specifically, and to the 29 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: point that one article talked about the fact that black 30 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: women have not been in the industry long enough to 31 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: even count, like they could not get numbers, like it'd 32 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: been so small. So from gamedeveloper dot com, a twenty 33 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: twenty four article written by Justin Carter talked about where 34 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: the game industry is in relation to black develops burst 35 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 2: And the article is titled our game studios suddenly abandoning 36 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: Black developers. And here's the quote of those that have 37 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: been in the industry for twenty one plus years ninety 38 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: two percent, where white men group wise, Asian men came 39 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: in second at fifteen percent, followed by Hispanic Latino men 40 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 2: in eight percent, Black men six percent, and Asian and 41 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: white women five percent each. And yeah, this is where 42 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 2: they're comeing from. The survey indicated that almost no black 43 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 2: or Hispanic Latino women have been in the industry that long, 44 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: so they could not get numbers because they have not 45 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 2: been in the industry long enough, which is absurd. So 46 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 2: with all of that, we do want to take the 47 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: time to feature the black women who are making an 48 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: impact in that industry and who are a part of 49 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 2: that industry, and that includes Cats Smalls. We talked a 50 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: bit about her game Sweetheart, which is spelled sweet ex Heart. 51 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: It I guess came out in twenty nineteen because she've 52 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: been developing it for a minute, and she has so 53 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: many others. So if you go to our website, she 54 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 2: has a list of all the games that she has 55 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 2: worked on or all the projects that she's a part of, 56 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 2: and from that site it says quote people are the 57 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: center of everything I do. Over the past fifteen years, 58 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: I've championed digital design at increasing skills, mentored and managed 59 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: junior and senior designers, and collaborated to craft inclusive use 60 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: of experiences with agility and thoughtful consideration. I work with 61 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 2: designers and product development teams to gather insights, prioritize customer 62 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: pains and opportunities, create and inspiring strategic vision and bring 63 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 2: ideas to life. In my spare time, I make games right, 64 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: speak publicly, and work to make the world a better 65 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: place by organizing events across the tech and game industries. 66 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: So she does a lot, and with her years of work, 67 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: she has used her experience to help others in this industry. 68 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: With Chris Algu, she co founded the Game Devs of 69 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: Color Expo in twenty six and here's a bit of 70 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: information from her feature with the NPR article I mentioned 71 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: earlier quote. The Game Deves of Color Expo is a 72 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: space for developers of color to meet one another and 73 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: showcase their work. Several events have been held over the years, 74 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 2: some in partnership with major gaming companies like Xbox, Nintendo, 75 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 2: and Oculus. Besides bringing developers of color together small sets, 76 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: the Expo helps to break down the barriers that people 77 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: of color may face when trying to get into the industry. 78 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: She says, we are actively giving people money to make 79 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 2: their games, and since twenty nineteen, the Game Devs of 80 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: Color Expo has given more than three hundred and sixty 81 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: thousand dollars to game developers of color. 82 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: And in that same interview, she talked about her journey coding. Quote. 83 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: When I was ten, I actually started to learn how 84 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: to program so I could make my own dress up dolls, 85 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: and eventually I learned that you could make games as well. 86 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: I had a tutorial for the dress up doll program 87 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: that I was able to read. It was updated in 88 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: like nineteen ninety nine, and I think I looked at 89 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: it it in like the year two thousand. Small's met 90 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: with others interested in programming and video games through online forums. 91 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: She said, we did collaborate, which was really fun. So 92 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: I got to learn how to make art for these 93 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: dress up doll games that we were creating, and we 94 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: would kind of trade art back and forth and figure 95 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: out how to build everybody's work into one cohesive experience, 96 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: which was really fun. 97 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: And in another interview she did with Johannes Epen, sorry 98 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: for if Iams pronounced that, she talked about the importance 99 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: of diversity in the industry. She says, quote, there are 100 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: a lot of people who play video games, but it 101 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: is interesting how much less diverse the people made games are. 102 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: A lot of the things I and my friends are 103 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: doing is to make sure that there is equal access 104 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: to the tools and the knowledge that is out there. 105 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 2: Making video games is one of the easiest ways to 106 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 2: learn programming. Part of the reason is that in some 107 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 2: schools there are game development classes, and in many other 108 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: disadvantaged places there aren't a variety of classes for computer 109 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 2: science or video games. We are trying to show people 110 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 2: that there are a lot of games developers who are, 111 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: for example black. The knowledge alone that there are other 112 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 2: people like you out there is super great. 113 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: And she continues talking about the difference it makes when 114 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: a developer has a diverse background quote, it's been really 115 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: cool to see the stuff that people come up with. 116 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: The traditional thing that people think of when thinking about 117 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: video gaming is maybe Fortnite. The more diverse freewpoints you 118 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: have more potential strange and awesome things people come up with. 119 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: Take that game called neuror spelled in Oh you Are 120 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: by the way, continues, They took a bunch of foods 121 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: and colors like popcorn, bubble tea, pancakes, and sausages. You 122 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: can do weird and satisfying things to them, drop bubble 123 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: popcorn and so on. It appeases the natural urge of 124 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: playing with your food and that space that has no limits. 125 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: I don't think that would have happened if that person 126 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't have learned how to make video games. Getting as 127 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: many people as possible to learn how to make video 128 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: games will result in a lot of really fun, random 129 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: and interesting come nations of mechanics and ideas. 130 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: And in that same interview, she talks about the games 131 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 2: Sweetheart and her thoughts behind it. Quote Sweetheart is a 132 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: game that started as an independent study project during grad school. 133 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: I kept working on it. It is this autobiographic game 134 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: using several experiences I had in college. I grew up 135 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 2: as a black woman in the Bronx. Going to undergrad 136 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 2: school in Manhattan. Going every morning from a place where 137 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: you're surrounded by so many different people from so many 138 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: different places to a place that was mostly white was 139 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: really disorienting to me. Also, navigating the tech industry at 140 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: the same time. Making this game has been very therapeutic, and. 141 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: She continues explaining the name. The name is based on 142 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: cat calling. Many people called me Sweetheart on the street, 143 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: which is a very creepy and uncomfortable term for me 144 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: as an adult person. It also describes the player's experience 145 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: very nicely. The X is silent. In many Japanese video games, 146 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: they have an X in the middle of the name 147 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: to make it sound cooler. I thought that would work 148 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: very well. A moment where the character is pushing back 149 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: against the thing that people call her, a fun take 150 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: on the word itself. It stuck really quickly with me. 151 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: I'm excited to try this and the game took her 152 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: several years to develop and create, but she committed to it, saying, quote, 153 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: I hope that by playing it people get to see 154 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: what it was to be me at the time, being 155 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: nineteen years old, trying to figure out a lot about 156 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 2: my life, understanding how people saw me and not just 157 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 2: how I saw myself. I had a lot of fun 158 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: testing it out with people, also using a lot of 159 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: my ux design jobs going through the process. I love 160 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: when people talk about things I don't know like us. 161 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: I know of it, I don't know it. Oh my 162 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 2: godh uh huh. Good job. So it's obvious. She's been 163 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 2: very busy in her work and continues to create great games. 164 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: In the NPR feature, they asked her for her advice 165 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: for others who want to get into the gaming industry, 166 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 2: and she said, quote, find your people, because your community 167 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: is going to be the thing that gives you energy 168 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: to keep going and your community is going to be 169 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 2: what inspires you and helps you keep pushing to learn 170 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: and grow. 171 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: Yes, great advice, and I obviously we want to check 172 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,479 Speaker 1: out these games. We love getting recommendations from you listeners 173 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: if there's anything we missed, And that's one of the 174 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: things we love about indie games is this very thing 175 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: is seeing all these new takes so very cool. All right, listeners, 176 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: if you would like to contact us, you can. You 177 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: can email us at Hello at stuff Whenever Told You 178 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Blue Sky at 179 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff 180 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: When Never Told You for USO on YouTube. We have 181 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: a tea public store and we have a book you 182 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 1: can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always 183 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: to our super producer Christine or executive producer My and 184 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: your contributor Joey. 185 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: Thank you and I'm sorry and thanks. 186 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: To you for listening Stuff Will Never Told You the 187 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: protection of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 188 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app, 189 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.