1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly Frye and 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about Gladys Bentley this week, Yeah, 4 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: and her sort of wild ride of a story it is. Yeah, 5 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: in some ways, it's so exuberant and joyful and wonderful 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: that it makes talking about the parts that are a 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: little bit trickier feel like a letdown. Yeah, but those 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: are also important. Yeah, one of the things that we 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: didn't bring up during the show that is a little 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: more on the lighter side. I didn't know for sure 11 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: if this was always the case or not. Like we 12 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: talked about, you know, she was in many ways very 13 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: masculine presenting. Yeah, she was a large woman who wore 14 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: these tailored men's suits, so striking. Yeah. She always had 15 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: makeup on. Oh, like any picture I've seen of her, 16 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: she always had even when she was in that phase 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 1: of her life, full lipstick, usually a bit of eyeshadow 18 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: or eyeliner like. So it was just interesting to me 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: that juxtaposition, and at first I thought, oh, maybe it's 20 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: just for stage, right, but then I saw a picture 21 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: of her like out and about in New York and 22 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: she had makeup on, and I was like, well, maybe 23 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: she'd liked me. I mean that happens too. Yeah. It 24 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: just struck me as interesting that she's often talked about 25 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: as being like super mask presenting, and I'm like, yeah, 26 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: but she always really had like she was serving lips 27 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: like she always had like it was lip glossed. It 28 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: was not just like a color thing, right, And so 29 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: I was fascinated. Yeah, okay, so the article, yeah, and 30 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: the things one, I'm surprised because I have not seen 31 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: anyone really except for one book. And even they did 32 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: not go into deep. They went into a little bit 33 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: more detail. Most people do not mention the problem of 34 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: Massea Sheffield and his claims about J. T. Gibson. Yeah, yeah, 35 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: he is obviously a questionable source, right, And I A 36 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: lot of people are like, well, she said that she 37 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: was married to this this theater critic, but his best 38 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: friend said that he vehemently denied it, and like often 39 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: that's just where it's left. And I'm like, was he 40 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: best friends? I don't know that that's verified. Yeah, can 41 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: we trust this dude? I don't know that we should. Right, 42 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: it's super weird, even to the point even in his time, 43 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: like we've talked about many times on this show, like, oh, 44 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: in the seventeen hundreds, you could change your identity and 45 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: no one would ques. It's in the nineteen twenties and thirties, right, 46 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: and then in the fifties right where he's like, he's 47 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: become a completely different person. And there are a lot 48 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: of news articles about him from that time talking about 49 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: all the accolades he should get for like his work 50 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: in the black film industry. So it's like, uh huh, 51 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: he it's a it was a whole life refresh for 52 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: him after that, Yeah, which is wild. But I did 53 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: find an interesting article that only briefly mentioned that one 54 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: of the reasons if Gibson had been genuinely upset, even 55 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: if maybe they had gotten married or there was an 56 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: understanding that she could say that because he apparently never 57 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: divorced his first wife. Oh, this alleged that he was 58 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: worried there was going to be legal trouble. Yeah. Yeah, 59 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: but again this is all speculation and gossip. We don't know. Yeah. 60 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: Her article is so interesting to me because it is 61 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: very possible for people to understand their gender and their 62 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: sexuality very differently over different parts of their lives, right, 63 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: for sure, And the idea of being born that way 64 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: has been sort of part of the queer rights movement, 65 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: trying to dispel the idea that it's a choice, and 66 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: that like the sort of popularity of that idea has 67 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: come and gone at various points over the decades. So 68 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: like I, I don't want to suggest it any way 69 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: that if somebody in their young life describes their gender 70 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: or their sexual orientation or something in one way, and 71 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: then later on in their life they describe it in 72 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: a totally different way, Like I don't in any way 73 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: want to suggest that that's not valid. Right. They know 74 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: themselves better than we, right. But this seems so clearly 75 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: to have been happening in the midst of this with 76 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: a corresponding rise in the queer community's efforts to get 77 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: just basic dignity and rights and a backlash to that. Like, 78 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: that's definitely part of the context there. And this leads 79 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: into a couple of other things that I wanted to 80 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: talk about. One was one piece of analysis. I think 81 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: it was a paper that I read that suggested that really, 82 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: if you look at this, you could consider it through 83 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: the lens of how astute Gladys was at using the 84 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: press to the advantage of her career, because if you 85 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: read that article, you'll notice she talks a lot about 86 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: I'm still singing, I just recorded a new album, like 87 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: working in self promotion of what she's doing with her 88 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: music career right into the discussion. It's like woven through 89 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: that article, which is very smart and just a way 90 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: to look at it. Here is where I got sort 91 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: of heartbroken about the article, and it's not the article itself. 92 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: There are two things that happened. One is that in 93 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: subsequent issues of Ebony, there are a lot of letters 94 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: to the editor that are maybe not what you're expecting. 95 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: They are writing by other women who are like, yes, 96 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: I thought I was gay, but now I'm fixed and 97 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: I'm right. Oh no, I'm okay. And it's a little like, oh, 98 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: how much of this was going on where people were 99 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: just being told who they were was wrong. It's very 100 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: hard for a lot to read it, even though they 101 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: often are like and now I'm married and I'm happy, 102 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: and I'm like, are you again? People can be people 103 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: can shift their identity there, you know, they can realize 104 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: different things about themselves. At different stages of life. But 105 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: it was so many that I was like, here is 106 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: where I really chagrined. Though there were a lot of 107 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: other articles that came out in the nineteen fifties that 108 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: Gladys does not appear to have had anything to do 109 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: with that sort of use her as an example. Oh no, 110 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: like c C. Some of them are like very faux scientific, 111 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like there's actually a third 112 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: sex and it can be cured with hormone therapy. And 113 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: it's like this is you're exploiting her story to support 114 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: some very potentially damaging ideas. Yes, well, and also kind 115 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: of feeds into the idea of conversion therapy, which, to 116 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: be clear, is literal torture, Like conversion therapy tortures people. 117 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: Yeah it is not TSD is like there are a 118 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: lot of papers about it. Yeah, it's not effective. I 119 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: mean if you take the idea as good that you 120 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: could change someone's sexual orientation, which I am not saying 121 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: that at all, but if you started with that as 122 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: your baseline, it doesn't do that. Like it does, it doesn't. 123 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: It's not effective at doing that. No, And then also 124 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: that whole idea, like I just we don't need to 125 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: be doing that in the first place. Like, yeah, I mean, 126 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: I'm very curious what her experiences were when she was 127 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: a kid, when her mom was taking her to doctors. 128 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: And I don't know. I mean, clearly she had reconciled 129 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: with her mom since they were living right there together 130 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: right in the fifties, but I can't imagine in the 131 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: late teens and early nineteen twenties what that would have 132 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: been like very misguided. The other thing that's interesting that 133 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: she mentions in the article is that, well, I'm one 134 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: of the lucky ones because I'm wealthy enough to afford 135 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: this tree. Oh, And it's like, how does that set 136 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: up a dynamic of like, well, if you're one of 137 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: these unfortunate people who's not right, you just I guess 138 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: you got to stay not right if you don't have money, 139 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: And it just like there are so many problems and 140 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: layers and like a stack of problems. Yeah, and then 141 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: especially when it gets flipped and she gets held up 142 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: as this emblematic example of like, hey, you could fix 143 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: your life and then to kind of put a button 144 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: on all of that. One of the books that I 145 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: looked at, there's a chapter on her And one of 146 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: the things that that writer mentions that I had not 147 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: considered before I read it was that he notes that 148 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: when there is that footage of Gladys on You Bet 149 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: Your Life in nineteen fifty eight, she looks a lot 150 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 1: older than fifty one. Oh yeah, and it's like, Okay, 151 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 1: was she lying about her age or did all of 152 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,839 Speaker 1: this just really age her? Because when you see her, 153 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: like right up to the point that she kind of 154 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 1: leaves New York and goes to la she still looks 155 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: like that incredibly gorgeous, vibrant, you know, very youthful, And 156 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: it seems like in a short period of time that 157 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: shifted really quickly. And I don't know that we'll ever 158 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: unlock what was going on there. Listen, sometimes people just 159 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: go through a period where they age very quickly. Right, 160 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: wellmet my recent years, but yeah, like through nothing other 161 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: than just like my jeans hit the moment where they're like, 162 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: by the way, here come all of the things. So 163 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: I don't know, but it does make me wonder if 164 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: if all of this was incredibly stressful for her. It 165 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: seems like it has to have been. Yeah, yeah, I 166 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: think that her life and what she went through over 167 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: those decades and the like, the evolution of the lavender 168 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: scare has a lot of parallels to what we are 169 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: living through now, where we got the tiniest, tiniest bit 170 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: of protection and equity for trans people and then that 171 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: sparked a coordinated backlash that is horrific and inexcusable. Yeah. Yeah, 172 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: And in her case, there is that extra layer of 173 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: that's all the stuff that made me famous and wealthy, 174 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: What's gonna happen to me now? Yeah? Like, where does 175 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: my career go now when I'm not allowed to be 176 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: that anymore? Which is just another layer I imagine of stress. 177 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: So if you can go take a peek at that 178 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: video of her singing, it sure is worth it though, 179 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: because even in that phase of her life, once she 180 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: starts banging away on the piano, it's like the joy 181 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: comes out of her. It's really cool and she was 182 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: just amazing. And also you get to see Groucho Marks 183 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: in this other guy kind of dancing to it, which 184 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: is pretty fun because Groucho Marks in the so in 185 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: the program, I mean, I don't know what he got 186 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: briefed on before it, but it's like he realizes as 187 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: he's talking to her to her, Oh you're that Gladys Bentley, 188 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: Like he didn't recognize her. So it's really really fascinating. 189 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: It's you know, it's a very short little piece that 190 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: you can find online and worth it if you seek 191 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: it out. So anyway, that was glad As Bentley. Yeah, 192 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 1: cool blues and jazz singer against some of those songs. 193 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: You can find audio recordings of some of her other songs. 194 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: That's just the only one that they're footage of, but yeah, 195 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: there are definitely lots of audio recordings and her voice 196 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:50,719 Speaker 1: is so good, so good. We talked about hypnotism and 197 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: James Braid this week. We did. As I was telling 198 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: Tracy before we started recording, this almost became a two 199 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: parter because I really like getting into the minutia of 200 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: his life in particular. But that would have been very 201 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: janky for our schedule to have a two parter when 202 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: we're recording today. Yeah, because I had already written a 203 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: two parter and it was not going to flow correctly 204 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: if we had another one. So sorry, I stepped on. No, 205 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: you didn't at all. You were ahead of me and 206 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: getting stuff done, so you have every right. Yeah, we 207 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: try to keep two parters in the same week, and 208 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: this one is going to have to go on a 209 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: Monday when we already have a Wednesday a line. So 210 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 1: we were like, well that won'll be yep, which is fine, 211 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: And really it probably made it better because I would 212 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: have gone down weird paths that I can talk about now. 213 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: One story that I was fascinated by, and also a 214 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: little listen if you're squeamish, this may or may not 215 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: bother you. I actually found it kind of funny, okay, 216 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: because it's so here's what it's like to be a 217 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: surgeon in a mining town. Oh kind of story mentioned 218 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: that one of the things he treated on a few 219 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: occasions when he was at Leadhill was like severed fingers. 220 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: And there was one story that he somebody had come 221 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 1: to him and said like, hey, I have cut off 222 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: the tip of my finger and it's bleeding. And he's like, well, 223 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: did you pick up the tip of the finger And 224 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: he was like no, and like they literally went out 225 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: and found it in the dirt and then had to 226 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: sterilize it and put it on and I'm just like 227 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: and apparently that went very well and he was successful 228 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: and the man recovered just fine. But I'm just like, 229 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: Holy Moses, Holy Moses. There were also a couple of 230 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: moments in his biography and little minutia type stories that 231 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: reminded me they kind of accidentally referenced literature, and one 232 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: of them made me go, did that author read about 233 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: this or was this common practice? Which is we talked 234 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: a little bit about how even you know, during his surgeries, 235 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: his whole thing was like, don't overtax the patient that 236 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: will actually damage their recovery. Sure, And because he came 237 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: to be so respected, a lot of other surgeons and 238 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: even physicians would come to him and get his opinion. 239 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: And there was one case where somebody came to him 240 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: to talk to him about a patient. Who was this 241 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: woman that kind of had a lot of kind of 242 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: nebulous maladies, right, and they weren't choked up to like, oh, 243 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: nervous disposition, which is what a lot of legitimate issues 244 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: often got umbrella under. But it seemed like there was 245 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: a really earnest desire to, you know, help her through 246 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: whatever was going on. And as he as Braid kind 247 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: of heard the details of the case, he kind of 248 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: took a step back and said, you're giving this poor 249 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: person an awful lot of medication, like kind of hoping 250 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: that it's gonna work, but maybe it won't. And so 251 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: he actually was one of those people that was like, 252 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: if she thinks she needs medication, what if we give 253 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: her bread pills, Like we basically mashed down bread to 254 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: look like pills, and that way she still has the 255 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: placebo effect of thinking she's doing it. This is something 256 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: that they do in Eight Cousins by Luisa may Alcott, 257 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: and I was like, really, did she read about this 258 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: or was this something that other doctors did sometimes because 259 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: Uncle Uncle Alec in that book, I wick her Alex 260 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: does that at one point where he makes little bread 261 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: pills for somebody, because he similarly is like, you don't 262 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: need to be hyper medicated, all right, right for everything 263 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: when doctors are just playing guest work about But so 264 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: many people at that point, you know, often and even today, 265 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: I mean, there are so many people who are like, 266 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: I think I need medication for this, and it's like, 267 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: well maybe, but I reminded me of that. The other 268 00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: thing that was interesting to me in the I I 269 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: wanted to make sure I understood like exactly how clubfoot 270 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: happens and what the actual issue is. And I ended 271 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: up down a weird Reddit rabbit hole. Okay, because so 272 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: we recently discussed Gustav Labert and Madame Beauvarie. Yeah book 273 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: I love. There is in that book an instance where 274 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: a young man who is like an adult with clubfoot 275 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,959 Speaker 1: is operated on by Emma Bowie's husband, Charles, and his 276 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: leg is amputated and it goes horribly and his quality 277 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: of life suffers. And I happened upon while I was 278 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: looking for because I had that moment of like, Charles 279 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: did do a clubfoot thing in Madame Bowerie, and I 280 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: searched that online and I find this and it was interesting. 281 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,959 Speaker 1: And if any of these people that participated in this 282 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: threat hear this, I mean I hope they do, because 283 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: they may understand the nuance of it, because they're all 284 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: like Charles is an idiot. Because one of them looked 285 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: up how clubfoot is treated and they were like, that's 286 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: not how you treat clubfoot. And I'm like, okay, but 287 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: at the time, when the bovaries were existing, that was 288 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: how it was treated. They were just before like these 289 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: more nuanced surgeries started to come into play. It just 290 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: made me laugh. I was like, is everything in James 291 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: Braid's story going to be related to a piece of 292 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: literature that I love. Maybe, maybe, But I'm going to 293 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: use Madame Bovarie as a jumping off point because you know, 294 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: we talked in our Emil Koua episode about like him 295 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: also being like m kind of of of once removed 296 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: generationally in terms of exposure to the teachings of mesmerisham 297 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: like stepping even further away from it, and him being like, no, 298 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: you actually don't even need hypnotism to to affect change 299 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: in your life on a subconscious level. But I did 300 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: think it was funny because there is a long chain 301 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: of like French people who you know, were into mesmerism, 302 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: et cetera, because of course it came about in France initially. 303 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: But there was one thing I read in talking that 304 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: was talking about James Braid and like particularly La Fontaine 305 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: coming to England and there being not just a sense 306 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: that mesmerism was hooey, but also that you couldn't particularly 307 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: trust French mesmers in particular French Yeah, because it was like, oh, 308 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: there are so many French mesmerists and they're all just 309 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: they're all just selling flim flamp, which I just thought 310 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: was really really funny. I don't know, I just loved it. 311 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: I also I mentioned in the course of the episode, 312 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: but I wanted to again because I really I have 313 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: an odd affinity for James Braid after doing the research 314 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: on him that that obituary that does mention like, no 315 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: everybody called him doctor because he took care of his 316 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: entire community. They went to him for things that normally 317 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: you would see a physician and not a surgeon for, 318 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: but like they trusted his judgment so much, and he 319 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: was so careful to not ever like overstep his own 320 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: knowledge that they knew. Like if he said, I don't 321 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: know what to do with this, let's take you to 322 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: a doctor, they would do it. But if he said, 323 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: I understand what's going on here, I think I can help, 324 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: they were happy to do whatever he said. And I 325 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: just it speaks volumes about him as a person. And 326 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: again like post Emil Koua, where I also wanted somebody 327 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: who was like actually fairly noble in their desires to 328 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: help people and not trying to be a weasel. Yeah, 329 00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: this is my series on non weasels in medicine, and 330 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: like non grifter complimentary mens, absolutely not. Yeah, he wasn't 331 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: like trying to make any money off of explaining him 332 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: to his mother than you know, book sales or whatever. 333 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: But even so he he would routinely just write into 334 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: the paper and explain things like in letters to the 335 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: editor of like, hey, you know the science that you're 336 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: talking about here, you don't have it quite right. Here's 337 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: what's really going on, and here are the other writers 338 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: who have discussed this, like literally just writing essentially like 339 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, a paper with citations as part of his 340 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: letters to the editor. Yeah, which is just free knowledge 341 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: he's given away, which I love. I also just like 342 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: I like that you've done I think two episodes in 343 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: a row, I guess about somebody who was trying to 344 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: help people, trying to help them recover, trying to help 345 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 1: make their lives better, but without like undermining and casting 346 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: doubt on medical science, which I think is like really 347 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: important because it's true that there are things that medicine 348 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: doesn't understand, and there are a lot of people who 349 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: in one way or another are either left behind by 350 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: or excluded from the world of medicine. Yeah, and there 351 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: are other things that can help make people's lives better. 352 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: But like we're living in a time where there's just 353 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: so much intentional sowing doubt about medicine in a way 354 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: that is harming people that I like that we got 355 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: to in a row kind of people that I would 356 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: put in the umbrella of alternative practitioners who were not 357 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: doing that. Yeah, although he was also continuing like his 358 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: surgical practice throughout all of vice. He just saw hypnotism 359 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: as another tool that you could potentially use, yeah, to 360 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: help people, Like it's it's a thing in the toolbox, 361 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: but it's not the only thing, which I just thought 362 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: was great. I also loved his whole idea of like, 363 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: you can only do this to someone with their consent, 364 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: this isn't which I think speaks a lot to who 365 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: he was as a medical practitioner, you know what I mean, 366 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: he wasn't You hear so many instances of very kind 367 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 1: of pompous doctors or surgeons throughout history, and I know 368 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: it still happens today who are just like you don't know, 369 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: I know, or just listen to me, which like they 370 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: might know, but like, yeah, it goes miles further to 371 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: explain to somebody what everything that's going on and what's 372 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: going to happen to them? Rather than just kind of 373 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: treating them like a problem to be solved, yes, and 374 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: recognizing their own agency and the healing process. Like to me, 375 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: I mean that goes back to like his whole thing 376 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: of like I don't need my knife in someone's eye 377 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: more than thirty seconds. Like we're in, we're out, We're 378 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,479 Speaker 1: gonna suit this. I don't want to make their lives arder. Ever, Like, oh, 379 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: that's such a good ethos. He's not trying to do 380 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: exploratory anything. He's literally like, let's identify the problem, fix 381 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: it and get out great, out as fast. How can 382 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: I make you heal as best you possibly can? Which 383 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: is great? Which is great? I love it. I like you. 384 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: James Braid check two non jerks in a row for me, hooray. 385 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: I feel like I have to find somebody really terrible 386 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: not too distant future. Yeah, we'll see what happens. I 387 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: actually do have somebody kind of terrible coming up, I think, 388 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: but not a not in a medical way. I know. 389 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: I've already said recently that Unearthed was coming soon. It 390 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: is coming soon. It's the next thing I'm working on, 391 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: but that still means it'll be a little bit before 392 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: it actually comes out Isna on Earthed. I don't know. 393 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just being weird. 394 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: If you have weekend coming up that involves time off, 395 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: which we all need desperately, I hope that you get 396 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: to do something fun and restorative that prioritizes your desires 397 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: and what will make you feel the best, and also 398 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: just that you get time to do whatever it is 399 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: that delights you. I hope we all find joy in 400 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: whatever way we can every single day, so long it 401 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: is not hampering anyone else's joy. If you do have 402 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: to work, or you have other responsibilities, maybe you're running 403 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: the family members around and doing stuff, or you got 404 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: to take cats to the vet, which involves wrangling them 405 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: into a carrier and a lot of stress and possibly pee. 406 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: I don't have any experience with that recently. I hope, 407 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: even if you have a lot of responsibilities that may 408 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 1: or may not go smoothly, that you still have as 409 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: good a few days as possible coming up. We will 410 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: be right back here on Monday with something brand new tomorrow. 411 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: You can also check out a classic episode, Stuff You 412 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For 413 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 414 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.